103 - Celeste Irwin | The Complexity of Change When Stepping Out From Harmful Places

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[00:01:26] Okay. Welcome to the There After podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:34] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:01:42] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism, but we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:01:51] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:02:00] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith and the life thereafter.

[00:02:13] Welcome back!

[00:02:24] Another episode. We have not had an episode out for a couple weeks and I don't even think I've posted about the last couple episodes we put out.

[00:02:34] It's just been life has been personally busy.

[00:02:38] Apologies for those of you who have been hanging on the line, just waiting, clicking refresh over and over again.

[00:02:49] We have been a little behind and we've been doing clubhouse rooms.

[00:02:53] We did have to cancel last week, but when we can, we've been doing the clubhouse rooms, which those are always awesome, the Tuesday morning things.

[00:03:02] But yeah, it's good to be back hanging out.

[00:03:06] Megan and I got to hang out in person last weekend, two weekends ago.

[00:03:11] It feels like yesterday.

[00:03:14] Yeah, I think your timeline is a little off.

[00:03:19] Yeah, I've been all over the country.

[00:03:21] I travel for work so I'm not always in town, so it makes it hard to record.

[00:03:26] I think our biggest, like the thing is I've been wanting to put this interview out with Celeste because she's so incredible and that's my biggest thing.

[00:03:35] It's like I just want people to be able to hear her and hear this interview.

[00:03:39] And so we've been sitting on this in the queue since like I think March.

[00:03:44] So I'm excited that we get to finally put it out.

[00:03:47] But yeah, those clubhouse chats, man, those are so great.

[00:03:51] Aren't they great?

[00:03:52] They're great.

[00:03:53] They're good.

[00:03:54] I just thought about like we should record a stock intro that's like Megan and Courtlet are too busy to put out to record an intro.

[00:04:03] Here's an interview we've been sitting on.

[00:04:05] We really want you to hear.

[00:04:06] Let's get into it and then we can just release the episode.

[00:04:10] You did one alone a while back one time when I was traveling and I thought that was funny.

[00:04:17] I don't know if I could do it.

[00:04:18] I probably would record it like 30 times until it got perfect.

[00:04:24] But yeah, we could do that.

[00:04:26] Here's the interview.

[00:04:28] Here's the interview.

[00:04:30] Yeah, because it has been we've been sitting on this conversation with Celeste and she's so incredible.

[00:04:37] It was so good to have her on and it was like not too long after we had gotten to hang out with her in, you know, content warning.

[00:04:47] So like which also feels like forever ago and yesterday at the same time.

[00:04:52] It's wild.

[00:04:54] Time is not real.

[00:04:56] It's wild.

[00:04:59] I loved it was so great to hang out with Celeste and I felt like I, you know, I didn't get to talk to everybody for a long time that I really

[00:05:07] wanted to and but she was somebody that on Friday night before the event I was able to hang out with her a bit and talk to her a few times.

[00:05:16] So that was nice and so many people I I've been starting to come up for air and starting to think about next year's content warning and

[00:05:25] I'm I just get excited thinking about all a lot of the people that want to come back together and be in one room again.

[00:05:32] So yeah, yeah, me as well.

[00:05:35] I'm very excited about it.

[00:05:37] So yeah, I mean we you and I were talking about for this intro just kind of gabbing a little bit about, you know, some like positive things that that we've been doing that have been going on.

[00:05:50] The world is in dire states.

[00:05:55] And this is definitely not to like trivialize trivialize that or to ignore it but also like there is an element of like in the middle of all of that just doom scrolling is not always healthy.

[00:06:14] And there's other ways that we're we're coping comfort shows, cell phone games.

[00:06:22] I know.

[00:06:24] I don't want to out you.

[00:06:25] Let's jump on and record and I was like, thank God because I'm addicted to this really dumb game on my phone that's been eating away at me and I need some something to get me away from it.

[00:06:37] But yeah, I've been watching Gilmore Girls with my kids and holy shit.

[00:06:43] I've never seen the show before like did you watch Gilmore Girls?

[00:06:47] Oh yes.

[00:06:48] Oh yeah, I am an avid CWWB like all the all the shows Dawson's Creek Gilmore Girls, Smallville.

[00:07:02] You name it.

[00:07:04] I watched it.

[00:07:06] I love television.

[00:07:08] It was hard because it came out right before you were able to start like DVR in things and so if you didn't catch it from my

[00:07:17] beginning you really didn't catch it.

[00:07:19] And so by the time I even heard about Gilmore Girls, it had already it was a few seasons in and I just never got started.

[00:07:27] And holy shit for me to watch this now with my daughters there 10 and almost 12 and and it's so funny because Rory just graduated from high school

[00:07:37] and I was like balling.

[00:07:39] She was like, I just need to thank my mom.

[00:07:42] She gave her graduation speech and and the girls my girls were like what?

[00:07:46] I'm like don't leave for college.

[00:07:48] It's like just stay here forever and but it's really cathartic too because our my life with my children is very different.

[00:07:58] My life in general is just very different than I think it's then what I had mapped it out to be even four or five years ago.

[00:08:08] And so it's fun to watch something that kind of is a little bit closer to representing a little bit more of what my life looks like to some degree.

[00:08:17] I don't live in Stars Hollow.

[00:08:18] That would be really we've joked on Twitter about starting our own Stars Hollow with just all of our friends, which I think we should absolutely do.

[00:08:28] I'm so in like I like Ross friend of the show Ross content morning collaborator regularly like sends me memes that are semi serious jokes about buying a plot of land and forming a community of some sort.

[00:08:49] And for real like there's something about you know I don't know if I could do you know Micah J Murray friend of the show former guest of the pod like is legit like bought.

[00:09:00] I don't know like 100 acres or something in Minnesota and is starting an eco village commune with a group of people like I don't know if I could actually do that.

[00:09:11] But if it worked out like there was like a small neighborhood for sale and we could like all locate there.

[00:09:18] I'm down like I need to have like my space though.

[00:09:23] This is coming from a guy who was in a cult lived in the house with 23 people that shared a bathroom.

[00:09:29] It's you can have your own apartment Cortland you get your own living quarters.

[00:09:36] Oh yeah.

[00:09:41] I hope I hope people listening to have have even some kind of background knowledge about Gilmore girls but if you don't stars hollow is just a magical seemingly magical small town where everybody just I don't know if I could even say everybody's friends but we know everybody's story and it would be cool to create that.

[00:10:01] I mean it's kind of like college right like and I do I have a lot of nostalgia about being in college I went to Christian college but.

[00:10:09] Like I went to a more liberal Christian college so I didn't have as much like I didn't have required chapel like some people did I didn't have to sign a statement of faith.

[00:10:18] You could go there without being a Christian and so I just have a lot of nostalgia about living so close to all of my friends and.

[00:10:26] And of course we didn't have to have jobs full time jobs yet so that was another piece like then we grew up and became adults and had to support ourselves so yeah.

[00:10:37] Yeah I mean there is this thing about like small community spaces and like things that are walkable and like things that like like creating you know and it's like unfortunate not to get we're like we're going to keep a positive and I'm like but capitalism but like it's

[00:10:54] like it's unfortunate like capitalism and like the way systems are structured like we are structured we structure communities around you know these really dysfunctional systems that were not built for people and community and equality and all of these

[00:11:12] these things that like could be at the forefront or the priority and you know how we how we orient our lives together being able to walk to things being able to not spend you know an hour and a half in our cars commuting.

[00:11:33] Not having to like have technology separate us the way it does you know technology brings us together so much but it also you know creates this you know I don't know I have I have these like nostalgic memories of like.

[00:11:48] I watched I watched the first episode of this Hulu documentary about black Twitter and super interesting I'm excited to finish the rest of it but like they start by setting up kind of the history of black Twitter and then you know kind of

[00:12:08] like the history of like the Internet and you know how my space and some of these other spaces that predated social media and like in that conversation they were talking about like the Internet used to be something that you did like when your real life stopped and now the Internet has like kind of replaced our real lives in some ways.

[00:12:25] And for us like that's how we met that's how we have relationship I'm grateful for and not at all demonizing the Internet but there is this like thing that I miss about like when we weren't online all the time and we were like in person more.

[00:12:39] And for me of course that ties also into that like late adolescence stage.

[00:12:44] High post high school early college you know when we didn't have I didn't have smartphones and have a cell phone during a lot of that period of time.

[00:12:52] So I don't know I don't know if it's nostalgia like enough it's like just like from this viewpoint.

[00:13:00] It looks cooler than it than it would be but.

[00:13:04] Yeah I mean and I think I think we're always finding that balance I think we did with content warning to we're finding that balance of like this is amazing and incredible that we can have relationships all over the country.

[00:13:18] But also sometimes there is like just something to be said about being able to if possible when possible be face to face in the same room with people and you know it's like we had.

[00:13:31] Sarah McCammon was in town when you were in town and didn't event at Powell's in Portland and we had like 15 people come out we all want to eat.

[00:13:40] We had we all went to go see her speak and her book talk and it was a blast like and it just is kind of I was I was thinking about it later like almost all of that crew.

[00:13:52] I would consider pretty close friends and they're all people that I met through Twitter all of them you know and and some like I'm dating someone now like that and I met him through Twitter like and it's just and through this like community that we formed

[00:14:09] and so it's interesting because I often critique you know I do have some critiques about the deconstruction space or like more of the influencer vibe but I also have a lot of.

[00:14:22] Just a lot of like care for like I think maybe that's why I'm so critical because I'm like don't don't taint this space that that we're holding so dear I don't know.

[00:14:32] Yeah yeah I do want to say like on on Mike and like in front of the listeners like it's been cool like having gotten to know you for the last three and a half four years.

[00:14:48] It's been cool to watch your life turn into like what it is and like I know that it's not like the Megan I met in 2020 was would not have guessed.

[00:14:59] You know yet I think where your life is is so beautiful and it is so representative of who you actually are and who you have uncovered yourself to be over these last few years and and just as a person who's gotten to like kind of like stand around and get to see that.

[00:15:20] I think it's cool and for others that are listening and are going through that what can be kind of scary transition into a different type of life.

[00:15:32] It's got a lot of good and it's cool to watch and it's inspiring to other people encouraging other people I think.

[00:15:39] Yeah well I think all that being said I think we should jump into this interview with Celeste she has a great perspective and I just I think she has a lot of great things to say on Twitter and in this in this chat so I hope you'll enjoy it.

[00:15:56] All right let's get into it.

[00:16:02] All right another episode another interview and we have a guest for this episode Celeste hello.

[00:16:11] Hi there.

[00:16:13] Yay I'm so glad that you're here Celeste and I'm so excited to be recording another episode of the thereafter podcast.

[00:16:20] How are you doing today Celeste we're so glad you're here.

[00:16:23] I'm doing well happy to be talking to you guys.

[00:16:25] Well we usually just like to get started and if you want to give us a little bit of your context history I know just we've overlapped on Twitter for a while and I've seen you go through a lot of change in that time and so I would love to just kind of hear a little bit about the context that you started when it came to like your faith and context and then also just kind of what that's what that evolving faith has looked like.

[00:16:55] And so I'm excited for you.

[00:16:57] Yeah I've been on a journey the last three years or so so Megan I think you and I met about two years ago now on Twitter is the first time I remember interacting with you.

[00:17:11] So about three years ago I left a cultish evangelical cultish organization and got out of that and then later in 2021 I started dabbling with social media trying to find other people who had had similar religious trauma spiritual abuse type experiences and also getting started on what I didn't know was called deconstruction yet.

[00:17:39] But I kind of started my deconstruction journey and started figuring out okay which parts of which pieces of what I was taught and what I was teaching make any sense which ones were just what was forced on me and things like that so I think early 22 Megan it's kind of funny.

[00:18:00] The first interaction I remember with you was one where you were talking about like how to be safe for LGBTQ people.

[00:18:10] And I had a question of like well how do I be safe for LGBTQ people when I'm not necessarily affirming yet.

[00:18:16] And here I am today.

[00:18:22] I'm a trans woman my pronouns are she her.

[00:18:26] I'm a lesbian.

[00:18:28] I am married to my wife.

[00:18:30] We have two kids one of whom is non binary.

[00:18:34] So we have a very queer family now we love it.

[00:18:37] It's amazing.

[00:18:39] But yeah we've there's been a lot of distance between there and here kind of unpacking all those things in between.

[00:18:47] I think a lot about that interaction because that was after I had probably made some growth and I think that had we intersected at a different time.

[00:18:59] I might not have had it like very much patience or very much you know empathy or understanding and I think that when I kind of started on Twitter I was very like had the binaries of like it's all or nothing you know and that and it's part of why I wanted to have this conversation to because I feel like the way we respond sometimes we have no idea what is going on in the process that people have and I think sometimes we do put this.

[00:19:29] I think that's all or nothing demand on people and I'm and I know I don't want to like jump ahead but I also am just curious because I'm sure I'm also not the only person that had a conversation with you around that time and I'm just curious if you felt like there was that kind of.

[00:19:45] Gatekeeping of the process or if you were allowed to have somewhat of some space to go through that like unaffirming to affirming to coming out to embracing your own identity process.

[00:20:00] Yeah I felt like I had a fair amount of space they were there were people even after I came out as trans I remember something last spring I said something about how you know I'm you know as trans I didn't used to be I didn't used to be not you didn't used to be affirming and I remember somebody who some other trans user on Twitter.

[00:20:26] They responded like okay so you like came out five minutes ago and you expect us to trust you and I was like honestly no like I get it like it's totally fine like I get that I was.

[00:20:42] Certainly nothing close to an ally for most of my most of my years I always tried to be polite and I have never understood.

[00:20:53] Anti queer people who are just mean about it I have never that has never resonated with me and so actually a lot of time over the years telling Christians to be nicer.

[00:21:05] Even when I was not affirming but but yeah like when those people tried to tell me like we don't trust you yet I was like okay that's fair like I'm not going to tell somebody they have to.

[00:21:18] What was really good for me during the process was and I think the way that it worked with you and the way that it worked with other people that being now.

[00:21:28] I was I tried to be very open about the fact that I was in process that I was actually on a path I tried to share what I was learning I tried to ask questions.

[00:21:39] So I tried to be able to not be performative about it but I tried to let my process on all of that be visible and I think that helped.

[00:21:49] I don't know maybe it helped people have more patience with me to be like okay we see her actually working through this.

[00:22:01] And we want to help with that as opposed to other people where you're just like hey where are you on this and they're like I'm in process.

[00:22:09] Like okay what's that process look like.

[00:22:12] Yeah and you don't hear anything so.

[00:22:15] Yeah I think I mean I think that there that is such a consistent reality for so many of us who are clear in some way and grew up in you know a very queer phobic faith and and I guess sucked of a faith because I will say as you know a hole.

[00:22:40] There is actually a huge portion of my faith my Christianity I grew up in that was not nearly as homophobic as the particular brand that I grew up in.

[00:22:51] But most of us were complicit in this sort of unaffirming stance and viewpoint and similar to you Celeste I didn't I growing up didn't I was always one of those like I wish it wasn't the case like I wish that God was different but unfortunately

[00:23:10] this is what it is.

[00:23:14] And I never quite understood the people who seemed excited that God was a homophobe like that always felt weird to me right.

[00:23:22] But I think that there's a certain amount of like this secondary reckoning that we then have to do with this internalized shame from that on top of internalized queer phobia and transphobia that exists because of the way we were conditioned to so have you experienced those

[00:23:47] like wrestling with that in your experience and do you feel like that has complicated your journey of discovering yourself in maybe a unique way.

[00:24:00] I think there were two ways that made it really hard was first as I was figuring out who I was.

[00:24:09] Yeah I've experienced what would be called gender dysphoria I've experienced feelings of I wish I was a girl I should be a girl I want to be a girl since I was six or seven.

[00:24:23] But I had no language for it I didn't even know the word trans until at least college.

[00:24:29] And by then I'd seen a spin sure and you know whatever other media where it was just like no people who do that are a laughing stock, not, you know something that I could actually be.

[00:24:43] And so, you know, I didn't have the space to even really ask the question is that me is that something I want to do until I was out of that call.

[00:24:58] And then like I went so fast with my deconstruction and part of that was I want to reconsider my views on LGBTQ plus issues and people, and almost as soon as I was exposed to LGBTQ plus people to deconstruct I started to really resonate with their stories and with

[00:25:24] those identities and start to figure myself out so it became actually really hard and I had to be really careful with myself of like I was like I don't want to become affirming I don't want to do the thing all the evangelicals are always telling us that we do is like, oh well you just deconstructed because you wanted to send right like I wanted to make sure that I had reached my new beliefs in a high integrity

[00:25:50] way of like, no I'm really going to sit down and do the work to make sure that I know what I'm know why I'm doing this.

[00:26:01] And if I can't get there then I can't get there and then I'm going to have to figure out what to do.

[00:26:06] But I don't want to just become affirming just because I'm starting to figure out that's who I am.

[00:26:12] So that was really hard and then now you look at the just rampant transphobia anti trans laws there's a thousand anti LGBTQ plus laws proposed across the country in the last 15 months, which is just insane like there's many states that have multiple bills introduced that do the same thing right like it's like how many bills do we need.

[00:26:38] I think last year they were like 120.

[00:26:42] I think it was the sports bands there were like 120 anti trans women in sports bands in 50 states.

[00:26:50] It's like how many bills do you need to do that.

[00:26:54] So, but I look at that and most of the time I'm able to just kind of push back against that and then there's days when I just feel the weight of.

[00:27:02] But I voted for this world.

[00:27:04] I voted for this world a lot.

[00:27:07] I told other people that they should vote for this world right I told other people that we should not be affirming I told other people that and it's like so to some extent I'm living.

[00:27:19] The anti transcendiment that's coming for me is something that I participated in creating.

[00:27:29] And so that that makes things feel really complicated at times and I try to always remember that and I was trying to keep that in context but you know it's you know what do you do when you realize you've built something bad it's like okay well now I need to try and tear it down and try and do what I can to fix it.

[00:27:49] And there's no repairing that completely right there's there's lots of people who lived for years decades in that world that I was holding up and they don't get those years back.

[00:28:00] That's one of the reasons I'm so passionate about trying to get trans rights and trans acceptance now because it's like you know I was talking to somebody on Twitter recently and I was like, yeah justice someday doesn't redeem injustice today right it just doesn't it's.

[00:28:16] It's good it's good that justice someday comes but it doesn't undo what we have now and the justice that I'm pushing for now doesn't undo everything that came before.

[00:28:27] You talked about like not wanting to like be that example of like what the detractors against destruction or destruction deconstruction cues people have like oh just like changing their beliefs because they want you know xyz to send or have sex or you know be gay or whatever.

[00:28:48] Did you like what I've realized though is like so much of like how I crafted a lot of my beliefs was like pretty much that just in the inverse, like if something brought me pleasure or joy, or whatever, then it was probably sinful or evil or like did.

[00:29:04] Did you have that like experience or do you feel like that was a part of what held you back from maybe thinking about some of these things sooner.

[00:29:17] I think that's a really good point. I think about it more now because a friend Billy Horde at Billy is writing on Twitter talks all the time about queerness is a blessing queerness is holy queerness is good actually.

[00:29:35] And I think that's become a more prominent thing in my life is is being able to look at the impact of transition in my life being able to look at the impact of my transition in my kids lives right both of them would tell anyone that they.

[00:29:51] I'm a far better parent now that I've transitioned just being on hormones just being able to be myself I'm far more relaxed I'm less irritable and things like that and so when when somebody comes for me like frequently somebody will be like, oh you're ruining your kids lives

[00:30:08] are really happy that I transition like they'd be really upset if I tried to go back and so like to some extent I do start appealing these days to you know the joy the you know what we call gender euphoria of like, you know this is this feels right.

[00:30:29] And just the overall health and goodness and positive impact in my life and look at that as being like, of course that's a good thing.

[00:30:40] Like, why do we have to be against it just because it's good.

[00:30:44] So, yeah, absolutely.

[00:30:47] Yeah, and the other thing that I was thinking about is when you were talking about having been part of that system.

[00:30:53] And I think about that in in relationship to what we said before which was allowing people to have the process because I think there's a lot of us that are deconstructing and we do go through that process and then I don't know if we forget about it or what but then we kind of expect people around us to just be there right

[00:31:15] and I remember there was a and I think I've talked about this in the podcast before but Sheila Grecoire had a had a whole thread where she was like, people want you to go from a to e without allowing for BC and D and I was like that's a lot of letters without LGBTQ in it.

[00:31:33] But I do think that like, we it is a little bit because of there's a little bit of self loathing happening where we're like we should have done better.

[00:31:46] So now we're trying to demand for you to do better because it almost feels like we can or maybe that's what's going on.

[00:31:53] I don't know because I have because I also see you having conversations with people that are still in process and you are holding space and you do have patients and so I've just wondered like how you approach those conversations and and what are kind of like you said one thing is like being able to you

[00:32:12] don't tell people I'm in process and this is what that process looks like. What are some other things that you're kind of you kind of look for when you're because some people are just like, I'm I've chosen to hate queer people no matter what you know.

[00:32:25] So yeah I'd love to hear about that process.

[00:32:28] Yeah, absolutely so I mean there's there's the people you know we all we all know the people who it's just like they've made hating queer people part of their brand right and today I don't know if you guys saw it JK rolling was, you know, just hitting the hammer again with like denying Nazi crimes against trans people like that have been proven their

[00:32:49] right. We know that this happened and she's like no that didn't happen. And it's like, what are you even doing, and it's like, that's a hard person to hold space for because they're not even asking for the space anymore.

[00:33:03] Right they, they don't want the space they've made up their mind.

[00:33:09] I try is with people who express that they want to learn. I've said for a while like I will answer a million good faith questions. Right, if somebody has good faith questions, I will talk all day and answer every question they have and if that's helpful hopefully that's helpful.

[00:33:27] If not, then not. You know, you have to be a little careful that you don't start dealing with people who are pretending to be in good faith but actually aren't and get into sea lioning and things like that.

[00:33:40] I think a couple things that I look for with the people that I still interact with that are non affirming and I call friends is, are they avoiding harm while they're in process.

[00:33:56] Right, have they figured out the things that are harmful and they're at least trying to do that. Right they're not spreading misinformation about trans people. If they do say something and I speak up and say hey that was a little over the line.

[00:34:10] Are they listening are they willing to say oh sorry didn't know I'll take that one back. So they might not be voicing support but they've also kind of really pulled back on anything that would be hurtful to the community.

[00:34:25] You know do they use my name and pronouns right it's really hard to have a conversation with somebody if they insist on misgendering me or dead naming me or things like that and so you know it really is that like what's the language they use are they willing to,

[00:34:43] you know, the escalate right are they willing to have a posture that's at least possible to have a conversation with or are they still insisting on doing their queer phobic bits.

[00:35:00] I mean, like every once in a while I have somebody who tries to interact with me and they're being all nice with me, but then I go look at what they're posting on main. And it's like posting really really terrible stuff I'm like, how can you pretend to be having a good faith conversation with me

[00:35:14] and really you're posting that stuff over there, like that doesn't work.

[00:35:19] So I think that's that's the biggest one that I look for and, and even to some extent like how much do I demand that they go through process at all is are they on like, have they use their voice to hurt the queer community before.

[00:35:35] If they've never said anything negative or positive like I don't love that I'd love if they were allies and learned how to do that but I had a lot more patience for that than I do for somebody who has used their voice against queer people or any other marginalized group, and then just refuses to fix it.

[00:35:55] That's much harder for me.

[00:35:58] I think that there's something really to like your point about working to mitigate harm. And because, you know, for myself and I think so many folks.

[00:36:13] So much the harm was like unknown, like we didn't know the harm I didn't know the extent of harm.

[00:36:19] And I think that some of my positions and views and actions were causing. And I've talked about this person on the podcast before I have a pastor friend who's a worship pastor who is unaffirming but and working in an affirming church but is, I think in process and he at the very

[00:36:40] point will, if there are queer people who come visit his church he will be like hey like here's some queer affirming churches. Here's churches around here who you can be fully involved in like, unfortunately we are not that church would I love for him to like push his church to be affirming a thousand percent right

[00:36:59] at least he is not perpetuating this like we welcome everyone bait and switch, you know, thing. He's like hey this is where you were. We are not a welcoming spot here's other churches that I know will be really good for you.

[00:37:14] That's mitigating harm. And I hope moving towards a place where he becomes fully affirming or gets his church to be affirming or goes to another church right.

[00:37:23] But at the very least we can push people to like directly address the harm they're causing.

[00:37:29] I think that's critical is being transparent about where you're at right and, you know, for me the ones that hurt the absolute worst are the betrayals right it's where I thought someone was farther along than they are I thought someone was maybe not even affirming

[00:37:50] I thought they were friendly to the community that they that they didn't want to see harm, and then they do something you know this this happened a couple times last year where it was like somebody who I had never seen any history.

[00:38:04] And I was just like, in two days just started pushing like all these anti trans conspiracy theories or misinformation or things like that.

[00:38:13] And it was just like, and not listening like people tried to say hey that's not, that's not right. Hey, can we calm down here can we talk.

[00:38:22] And then to approach them gently and say hey like, can we have a conversation about that and they just wouldn't. And those are the ones that absolutely hurt the worst and and can actually get dangerous right when you trust somebody and then they.

[00:38:38] You know, I, I've read a lot about you know betrayal trauma and things like that and it hurts 10 times worse when it's somebody that you weren't expecting it from as just the random person who shows up and does something and it's like okay, I guess that's who you are.

[00:38:57] This, this is making me think of Julie Royce can we talk about Julie Royce.

[00:39:01] We can talk about Julia.

[00:39:03] And, and one of the reasons and we've talked about this a lot when we've had, you know, private conversations but I also know that a lot. If I'm, you know, saying this correctly a lot of your experience deconstructing was also deconstructing out of that cult that you were a part of where you

[00:39:20] experienced church hurt and church abuse and her Julie's platform is exposing church abuse and, and I if I'm not mistaken you also went to her conferences and we're part of that community.

[00:39:34] And the way that you really went back and did the research and had that kind of process I'd love to hear you talk about that process and then just kind of what it's been like on the other side of, you know having this on the one hand.

[00:39:48] She's exposing, you know church abuse and reporting on that but on the other hand, she's still very transphobic and not willing to respond to people that are trying to, you know, set point point out this harm that she's doing and

[00:40:04] queer phobic as a whole and and purity culture perpetuating and various other things as well.

[00:40:13] And it's, I'm going to use the word and a lot in this discussion because it's a lot of holding these two things that are both true.

[00:40:26] And, you know, that's maybe one of the biggest things that I think a lot of us deconstruct when we're coming out of, you know what might be more fundamentalist spaces or things is that a person can be two things at once a person

[00:40:40] who can do really valuable things and can also do really harmful things and saying you did a harmful thing doesn't negate any of the rest it doesn't mean you're not a valuable person you're not somebody that's worth having around or what that you can't grow or anything

[00:40:56] and saying hey you, you did something that hurt. It'd be great if you learned not to do that.

[00:41:03] And so with Julie yeah she was a huge part of me coming out of the network and even before I got out of the network I think I had kind of come across some of her work and started to realize, wait some of the stuff that she's talking about is real similar

[00:41:21] to the stuff I've experienced. And then as I got out I listened to a lot of her podcast, a lot of her interviews. I one of the first things I did and I know Megan you read this.

[00:41:34] One of the things I did was I wanted to write a public statement about what had happened in the network.

[00:41:40] And so it took me eight months I think the public statement is like 10,000 words it's really long but I did a lot of listening to Julie and others who I would eventually meet at Julie's conference learning how do you do that why do you do that how do you do it well

[00:41:57] Learning about defamation laws and things like that. And so like I was tremendously indebted to her by the time I wrote that because I don't know if I would have been able to do nearly as good a job of it, or feel as confident in doing it.

[00:42:14] If she wasn't out there doing the same thing all the time. And if others weren't out there doing the same thing all the time.

[00:42:21] And so, yeah I went to her conference in May 22 about a year after I got out it was an incredibly healing experience for me, because it was the first room that I had been in where I could just tell my story of what happened in my church.

[00:42:37] And nobody questioned me, like everybody there got it everybody was like, oh my gosh yes. And most of them could say, yeah I've been there. I have a story like that.

[00:42:49] It was an incredibly healing thing I made friends there that I still have friends. And so I was really excited to go back. Except then I started to hear a couple people say, you know, Christmas may feel who I really trust Megan, who I really

[00:43:09] started to say, hey Julie has a transphobic history here. She's she's done these things and I was like, okay I'm going to need to figure that out.

[00:43:21] And so I started doing the research started going through figuring out what that was about and found far too much, far too much and found in her book in her on the Royce Report website in her tweets, found some really harmful things her website as far as I know I checked a couple weeks

[00:43:43] and still has one of its primary documents is, you know the case for Christian investigation investigative journalism. And it still talks about the evils of the LGBTQ agenda. Right. This is a document still published on her website today.

[00:43:57] She still has a video on her YouTube that talks about how transgen transgenders, quote unquote, is just Gnosticism, which it's not.

[00:44:08] It's like, so you're calling me a heretic you're calling me evil. This isn't okay.

[00:44:15] While she's still publishing all of these really important stories about John MacArthur or Mark Driscoll or, you know, right now I hop KC right and like this is really important stuff to get out there.

[00:44:30] So I tried to reach out to her.

[00:44:33] And, unfortunately, she wasn't really willing to listen. And all I wanted from her it was very clear the entire time.

[00:44:41] All I wanted from her was not, Hey, Julie you need to be affirming.

[00:44:46] It was Julie you've said some really harmful things and some things that are just factually incorrect.

[00:44:52] There's an oft quoted Swedish study about trans people and suicide rates. And somebody misquoted it like 10 years ago, as saying trans people's risk of suicide goes up after they've gotten surgery.

[00:45:09] And like the study's own author has been like has done interviews where she's like that's not what it says. That's not what our finding was like at all.

[00:45:19] So to see Julie report that in her book and be like, Yeah, see this happens when people transition their risk of suicide goes up.

[00:45:28] I'm like, it kills me to imagine the parent who reads that book thinks that's true. They have a kid come out to them as trans and they think that they are saving their kids life by preventing their child from transitioning when exactly the opposite is true.

[00:45:47] And I was like, that's really dangerous and it's not okay. And I tried to tell Julie this. And she so far that was a year ago that I tried to talk to her about it.

[00:45:58] And I put up my public blog post about her in July.

[00:46:03] And she still has refused to correct it. And that's hard to take.

[00:46:09] You know for somebody who's supposed to be committed to truth as a journalist, right?

[00:46:14] Yeah, and to not abusing people.

[00:46:17] Right. Yeah. Yeah. And there was the paragraph in one of her emails to me that that Kristen Mayfield did a really good job of talking about that it was it was an example of Darba right it was an example of her trying to claim that me speaking out was hurting her.

[00:46:34] Yeah. When all I was trying to do was say, hey, Julie you've said these things that are harmful. And I was trying to call her to correct it. I was trying to give her the opportunity to correct it.

[00:46:44] And she refused to do that.

[00:46:48] Yeah. And I think, I mean it's it's it's tough when there are so many aspects of abuse. I mean you mentioned the XIHOPKC thing and there are they're like, oh man these things that need to be talked about.

[00:47:05] And there is so much conflict. You know, I mean I see people post her stuff all the time in the circles that we run in online. I have also read, I think Emily Joy Allison wrote a relatively extensive post or thread about this as well.

[00:47:28] And she has a much longer, she has a much longer history of speaking out about Julie. She's she's been on it since years ago.

[00:47:36] So and and here's another person who is also doing work in trying it. It just is frustrating. It's kind of this like ever occurring kind of leftist struggle.

[00:47:51] You know, there's there's many memes about I did a tweet recently of like it was like guys fighting on the subway and then one guy punched the other guy.

[00:48:00] He fell into the subway tracks and then you know he helps him up and then they like keep fighting and I'm like this is the best visual representation of leftists on the internet ever because so often I'm like oh well this is going to like be used as a reason to discount these voices and these

[00:48:19] important information. But then I also feel like that's the same logic that so many of us use to silence victims in our evangelical circles to say, oh well we're not going to talk about this abuse because oh look at all the good work we're doing so

[00:48:36] it's like, we can't continue down that same. Obviously that doesn't work.

[00:48:43] Yeah, and I yeah I don't do you know think of all the good they've done is you know one of the classic abuse defenses.

[00:48:52] And I just don't I don't subscribe to that I think you know I hope at some point right like and it's happened already you know people have come to me and been like hey that thing was not great and I've been like oh okay I'm going to try and learn a thing

[00:49:09] and and do better in the future like part of the hope that we like I find a lot of hope in we're not perfect because it means it's okay and safe when somebody tells me that I can do better right if I think I'm above correction.

[00:49:32] That's the day somebody needs to start saying hey Celeste isn't safe anymore. Right. And I hope people do. If that ever comes, I always hope that people will say yeah Celeste is no longer safe for the community, which would be sad but

[00:49:52] it's you got to be willing to learn you have to and you have to be willing to grow and you have to be willing to and you can do it incrementally right again all I was asking Julie for was like these really harsh or incorrect things can you at least correct that right and

[00:50:08] and can you do it on your own I don't want to have to do it like can you just you know what and she just wouldn't do it and it's like that's that's really hard.

[00:50:17] I do think one thing I was I was just thinking about is how do you know you're doing it in a in a right, you know, kind of frame of mind that you're not just out to get somebody not just out to cancel somebody.

[00:50:33] I just watched. I don't know if you guys are familiar at all with all of the plagiarism discourse that's been going on on YouTube.

[00:50:41] But there's been a number of videos about like, there's, there's a thrill of catching somebody doing a thing. And, and I always think, if that's where you're at.

[00:50:56] There's a lot of danger there I think, if it's oh I'm so excited I found this person said that hey you've got to see what this person said like that's hard right.

[00:51:07] And so where I was really trying to get to with what I've said about the network what I've said about Julie what I've said about a couple of other people online is by the time I say something.

[00:51:21] It doesn't kind of hurt me to say it.

[00:51:25] I get worried, right. I want to care enough about that person that there is something that stings in me that's like, I really wish I didn't have to write this I think I spent a lot of my words with my article about Julie Roy said like I really wish I didn't have to write this.

[00:51:43] I don't see another option here, and I have to commute keep the community safe at this point. And I can't take the risk that an LGBTQ person trusts Julie with their story, and then gets blindsided with something I just can't do that.

[00:52:00] And so I have to say it, but that really, really sucks.

[00:52:07] And I like how you brought in that element of, you know, calling people out just to call them out and the drama of the gotcha moment because it's something again you and I have talked about when it comes to accountability for harm.

[00:52:22] And so I'm just going to tag everyone that I've seen on the website for this event and anyone that might even be thinking about going to this event. And all of you need to just boycott and it's like, hold on, let's take a beat here because

[00:52:51] who is like where's the root of the problem, where's the root of the harm and then who is the accountability who's who's being held accountable. And I think that especially it feels like a deconstruction, and maybe you know maybe just everywhere but it feels like it's more in

[00:53:09] deconstruction. I feel like there's this sense of we, we just want to you know, scream about everything until nothing is allowed to leave. There's not like a sense of like, what do you even want to happen? You know, like do you want events to not exist? Do you want this person to

[00:53:29] make repair? And almost always the attempt to make repair is what causes more harm in the first place. So I'm just, I'm curious about that that like your thoughts on all of that.

[00:53:42] Yeah, I think the guilt by association thing is dangerous. You know, when when Julie's conference was coming up last October.

[00:53:51] You know, I thought a lot about like, there's a number of people who are speaking at it. As far as I know, there was no LGBTQ plus person speaking at it, there was one who had been slated and she actually pulled out of the conference for for a couple of reasons, one of which was

[00:54:11] Julie's treatment of the queer community.

[00:54:16] But another but she also had other reasons, but most of the people speaking there just were in that group of they've just never said anything, or they've said very little about the LGBTQ community. They're not people who are out there causing harm.

[00:54:33] I don't think any of them were anywhere near the degree that Julie herself had gone to. And so like, I did a post and I did tag any of them that had a Twitter account. But what I said was simply, can you be mindful as you speak that there are people who can't be there this week,

[00:54:55] because Julie has proven herself to be unsafe to them. Right, just please avoid language like isn't it great that everybody is safe here. Right, it was it was just that can you be aware of that. Right, you don't need to withdraw you don't know we don't need to cancel anybody for associating with Julie or anything, but

[00:55:16] can we at least be careful about how we talk about this when we're in these spaces. And I was like, and if somebody has an opportunity to say something about how LGBTQ people are abused by churches all the time. Right, if somebody has the opportunity to use their voice for that that would be awesome.

[00:55:33] But as far as I know nobody did.

[00:55:36] Yeah. Well, it makes me think of I just saw recently and I don't know I saw it on a story may have been the only place that Tim has talked about this but Tim Whitaker from the New York Jailers he talked about he got invited it is going to be speaking at Preston Sprinkles.

[00:55:54] And he said, on his story he said I specifically told Preston I don't agree with you. I don't, I would love to come and talk to the people at your event about there being a better way and another way to think about things that's not your way.

[00:56:12] But I won't promote your event because I don't find it safe for my audience or anyone who follows me. But sure I'll come talk to your people.

[00:56:21] And, you know, some people may not understand that but I thought it was amazing that he still is, I guess invited, even though he was like I'm basically coming there to publicly disagree with you and not going to promote this event because I don't think it's a safe place for queer folks.

[00:56:41] And I think that there is a space for that because hopefully somebody there will maybe be able to hear from a different perspective. Maybe, maybe.

[00:56:52] I thought it was great when I saw that Tim was invited and going because I do I do trust with him and I've talked with him some.

[00:57:01] And like, I know that he's not going to do something to, you know, betray the LGBTQ community or anything like that right I know that he's actually hopefully going to do exactly what you just said is show people like hey this isn't how we have to be here.

[00:57:17] And it's also an invite that like I have tried to reach out to Preston. I know others have tried to reach out to Preston to mention Billy again. She's done a tremendous job working on a very long form review of Preston Sprinkles work on her blog.

[00:57:37] And she's tried to reach out to him repeatedly and can't even get a conversation with him. And so to some extent Tim can Tim can get that invite that we can't get right Preston's never going to invite me to speak at his conference right at least as near as I can tell.

[00:57:56] I'd love it if he did if he did I would go.

[00:57:58] We may see I mean more radical things, I guess have happened. I've seen people turn around so yeah it'd be right I guess.

[00:58:07] Yeah it'd be amazing. If if he did and I hope he does and a lot of these things you know I've talked a lot about Holy Post of like they talk about trans people a lot but they've never actually had a trans person on the show.

[00:58:19] That's like okay if somebody gets an invite and can go and can talk great like absolutely I want those conversations to happen.

[00:58:30] Yeah and this is just a decide Tim's just somebody that listens and and I would say Tim from New England I would say that he doesn't even get it right 100% of the time but he's willing to own it when he doesn't and I think that's what sets him aside different from the other.

[00:58:49] I think that's definitely then than some other.

[00:58:52] So this hat white men in this space because I think that I've had conversations with him where he's listened to my feedback and other people I know have had that and he's he's I can see that he's actively growing and I wish in this space there was just so much more of that where you know it's like.

[00:59:11] I feel like on the one hand there's this expectation for perfection but then on the other hand there's like we're trying to like help people grow and that I don't know it gets messy and so I just wish that we would all be able to give each other an ability to make mistakes but then also knowing how to make repair like there needs to be.

[00:59:34] I've joked like there should be a Celeste framework for how accountability happens and then how repair happens because.

[00:59:43] You're going to have your own razor.

[00:59:46] You talked about you do you have don't you have some kind of framework that you pulled from when you've talked about this stuff.

[00:59:51] There's multiple things that I've drawn from in it.

[00:59:55] You know when I think about how to hold somebody accountable what to expect from people things like that you know if I can name resources.

[01:00:06] I've definitely.

[01:00:08] I'm I deeply love Rabbi Daniel Rutenberg's book on repentance and repair.

[01:00:16] I think for anybody who has found themselves having done harm like I can't imagine a better book and even you know she's obviously Jewish and brings all of that tradition and it's wonderful.

[01:00:32] And then but she's also fluent in Christianity just by virtue of the culture that she lives in.

[01:00:40] And so she she is able to kind of translate for Christian readers and for people who are not of any faith at all.

[01:00:49] I think most of the book works well no matter what faith or lack thereof.

[01:00:54] Somebody happens to hold so I love her book a lot.

[01:00:58] It also has a fair amount in it about like forgiveness like what's the responsibility of the person do you have to forgive when do you forgive what's that look like what does repair look like so I love that.

[01:01:08] I also look at Wade Mullin who has been at Julie's conference a couple times has a really good framework on apologies.

[01:01:17] The score framework and where he talks about like what's a good apology look like right and the big thing is just like are you actually owning the harm done right are you actually saying I did this and it hurt people.

[01:01:30] And this is how it hurt people this is what I learned from this and this is how I'm going to fix that to the extent that I can and do better in the future.

[01:01:40] And that you're not trying to do this saving face type thing where it's like I'm trying to get off with the least amount that I can and well I said I'm sorry so we're good now right like.

[01:01:51] And so and I think they're really wise frameworks and then I have a lot that I've gone through on my own like one of the things that I hold to myself is like when I'm talking about a person.

[01:02:03] Am I sharing the truth or a generous version of it right and so I always want to err on the things that I say are absolutely true all of the context is there.

[01:02:17] And if if I've skewed in any direction.

[01:02:23] It's skewing generously not some sort of gotcha not sort of I found this one sentence and if I take it out of context that's you know something it's like no I want it to be accurate I want to be fair I want it to be a description of the person that they would recognize and they would say yeah that's that's what happened.

[01:02:42] They might disagree with me over whether or not it's bad, but at least we're talking about the person as they are.

[01:02:50] And so there's there's just a lot of that sort of stuff that I've worked through.

[01:02:54] That's so good.

[01:02:57] Thanks.

[01:02:59] Coraline did you have something that you were jumping in with.

[01:03:02] I have a question for sure.

[01:03:03] I mean it kind of just leads in because I feel like we've been kind of moving someone in this direction and you know talking about this like guilt by association and and not buying into that narrative you know I mean you guys you know both have accounts on the same social media platform as J.K.

[01:03:21] Rolling you know it's like how dare you you know and I do know some people who would say like well because of for whatever reason being on Twitter is an immoral immoral for them or being on YouTube is immoral for them for whatever reason.

[01:03:34] I know people who might say being a part of Christianity is is just inherently problematic for you.

[01:03:45] How do you find I don't feel that way by the way but I don't feel I don't personally identify as being a part of Christianity anymore or being a Christian or believing in Jesus.

[01:03:57] I think that you do Celeste still identify in that realm and so why how and you know kind of maybe just explore that a little bit.

[01:04:07] It's it's been a really hard journey recently because on any given day if somebody says something cruel to me about being transgender it's almost certainly a Christian.

[01:04:23] And it's if somebody is pushing an anti trans law.

[01:04:28] It's almost certainly a Christian group right and it's like how do I continue to identify with this thing that there are people in it who want me dead who want me gone who want me controlled back in the box right all those sorts of things who laugh when something bad happens to a trans person right.

[01:04:54] It's been really difficult.

[01:04:57] You know people who lie about trans people right like that's the thing I was like if if somebody is going to call themselves Christian can they at least be devoted to truth right can they at least have that and of course looking at the world right now we know that that's not always the case.

[01:05:13] Unfortunately, but that's been a really hard thing to swear when the word Christian means in popular culture means something very different than what I am and what I find myself to be so it's it's a tense relationship.

[01:05:36] I still and Rachel held Evans did this to me.

[01:05:41] If it weren't for her I probably would have walked away from the label Christian a while back, but I read her book inspired and it's the way she draws out the person of Jesus in this just absolutely beautiful way.

[01:06:01] Her just her story of Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well and him talking about them laughing together and you know just talking and you know Jesus has some snark to him and you know she's she's excited but she's curious and she's like all this.

[01:06:18] It's just this absolutely beautiful human moment and it's like I tell people it's like that's the Jesus that I can't quite walk away from right I just can't quite find a way away from him.

[01:06:31] And so recently I took Christian out of my bio on Twitter I replaced it with trying to follow love.

[01:06:41] Which I'm happy with for now, and I wrote a thread about it and I said if somebody asked me if I'm a Christian I would say yes ish.

[01:06:47] I was like, I appreciate how often the two of you talk about uncertainty on this podcast and so like I've gotten to the point where I'm like, do I really know anything.

[01:07:01] Could I actually say a wholeheartedly believe anything about somebody who lived 2000 years ago, I don't know.

[01:07:06] And so, but I want to.

[01:07:10] And I love Rachel held Evans phrase on the days when I believe right and that resonates so hard with me.

[01:07:18] And so yeah, I think for me it's, it's a tense relationship but I like the ideals I love the ideals of loving your neighbor as yourself loving yourself in that and doing what you can I was so happy.

[01:07:36] And I would say like can we try and make other people's lives easier and better and not worse and harder. Right, like, can we maybe do that a little bit.

[01:07:48] And so that that also resonates. There's tons of Christian people that I just love deeply and that their faith matters to them. I find a ton of beauty in transness as a Christian.

[01:08:01] I'm writing a blog post right now where I talked about a little preview here of like beautiful scars, right and we see, you know, all these things that have been transformed and we see them as beautiful from the Grand Canyon to the Sistine Chapel to

[01:08:20] you know, all of these different things and of course, you know, if you're Christian Christ himself right you see the scars in him and you see all the transformations he went through.

[01:08:31] And it's like, if God is a God who likes transition and finds beauty and transition. It's hard not to resonate with that as a Christian.

[01:08:41] And say, okay, well then I'm doing some of that I'm doing some of that creation and saying, okay, I get to help change my body into something that more matches the truth of who I am.

[01:08:57] I love that.

[01:08:58] Yeah.

[01:09:00] I also think it's so funny because I feel like Rachel Hald Evans and Rob Bell are like the slippery slopes and really they're the only authors that I read that make me kind of want to be a Christian again.

[01:09:11] Like, I'm like, oh man.

[01:09:13] It makes me it makes me want to go back and listen like there's a couple podcast interviews that Rachel did that I that I've gone back and listen to several times it makes me want to pull one of those back up and listen because yeah she did have such a way and I love what you said to about, you know, makes me think of two conversations, you know one with

[01:09:37] Father Shay Shannon

[01:09:40] Teal Kearns on the podcast and his work

[01:09:44] And then Daniel Lavery and like his memoir about you know, I mean reading that memoir and like the way that and I don't know that he even identifies.

[01:09:54] I don't think really maybe that he even identifies really as Christian but so much of that memoir was scripture and just like beautiful transness within scripture.

[01:10:06] Which as a as a non believer myself I was like listening to that and going back this is beautiful.

[01:10:13] Right. Yeah, there's so much there and you know the fact that people have tried to exclude queer people from Christianity when you know I mean you mentioned Father Shay and of course Brian their their podcast right and they're just constantly drawing out the the at times absurd queerness in the Bible like and it's

[01:10:36] like gosh they did not teach me about these things and Sunday school the first time.

[01:10:43] Yeah, I mean the first time that I learned so many of those things I was just like what that's there.

[01:10:49] And then the Bible is gay.

[01:10:51] Right. And then I know you guys had Alicia trans evangelical on hopefully that episode coming out soon. I can't wait to hear it but she's she's dropping stuff all the time.

[01:11:02] And it's like wait what like, and then you see yourself in the pages right and you see yourself in the story and it's like all these connections across centuries millennia.

[01:11:14] It's beautiful.

[01:11:16] Yeah, definitely I would love to give our listeners a chance to give you a chance to promote for our listeners like your work and where people can find you and but before you do that I just want to say one thing I love about your work is that you present

[01:11:30] you you're very open about your transition and your experience and even like, you know, what insurance looks like and what different stages look like and what's coming up you know but I also love that you're not prescriptive about it or you're not kind of owning it as like the the trans experience for everyone and and

[01:11:48] and you know I think that you see that where it's like you're talking to one trans woman in your your hearing one trans woman's perspective and and and so I like how you are pulling that from your own experience to where can people find your work and and you can respond to that too.

[01:12:05] And throw something at you.

[01:12:07] Yeah.

[01:12:08] So before I forget the socials and then I'll come back to that question. Yeah, I'm at Celeste finally on Twitter. I'm same thing on Instagram. I'm not really I might start being more on Instagram and threads but I'm I'm pretty much Twitter only and then I have my blog is on substack it's at Celeste finally calm make sure to include the

[01:12:32] the WWW otherwise it gets angry. So, but yeah absolutely would love if people check things out and I'm always like I said I'm always open for questions or things people want to know about.

[01:12:46] You know gender transition or what it's like being trans or you know, I don't ask anything right.

[01:12:54] Anybody can ask anything I always tell people you can ask anything you want and if I don't want to answer that I won't. And that's okay. And so yeah and then yeah I really try it's so important, especially with you know I read a poll not too long ago that it's like only 11% of Americans actually have a relationship with a trans person.

[01:13:18] And then you read the second part of the poll where it's like, and 40% of Americans want to take away trans rights. I'm like,

[01:13:27] So there's like at least 30% of you that want to take our rights and don't even know us. Like how does that work.

[01:13:33] And so like I want people to know us but I also want it's so important that people understand it's not a monolithic experience. Right. Many of us have many different

[01:13:44] stories backgrounds approaches to transition, even gender dysphoria is very different from one person to another. Somebody you know for me right now my face is just absolutely killing me because every time I look in the mirror it's just I tell people it's a perfectly fine face for somebody else, but it's not mine.

[01:14:09] And I need to fix that and so I'm working towards facial feminization surgery. I'm excited for that. But yeah, every time I try and talk about that. I always try to be really really clear.

[01:14:21] People better not ever use the fact that I'm getting that surgery to go and tell another trans person. Hey why haven't you gotten FFS like Celeste. It's minimally it's expensive it's an intense surgery.

[01:14:35] Not everybody has insurance coverage for it. And also, many trans women just don't want it right like why are we trying to force people into non consensual surgeries right it's one of the reasons why so many of the trans laws that say you have to have had, you know, gender confirmation surgery before you can get your ID

[01:14:59] changed it's like no that's exactly backwards right because then you're forcing people to get surgery who might otherwise have chosen not to. So yeah but yeah the experiences are so different and I learned stuff every single day from my trans friends, right and you know the amazing things that they bring

[01:15:21] into this world are just like I'm in all of them all the time.

[01:15:27] Yeah, that's it with that was the first thing that came to mind when you shared that stat. And I was like, Oh, I'm so sad for these people who don't know a trans person who don't have because like so many of my friends are we're in trans and they bring so much beauty and so much joy into my life and I just feel really

[01:15:51] sad for these people who don't have these people in their life. Yeah, there's a lot more out there. So much. Well thank you so much this has been great conversation and I know we see each other a lot interact a lot on Twitter so I love that and I can't wait to get this out into the world so thank you.

[01:16:12] Sounds great. Yeah thanks for being here. This is great thank you so much for having me. All right.

[01:16:22] That wraps it up. Another episode of the thereafter podcast in case you forgot.

[01:16:29] Go follow Celeste on Twitter, X whatever you call it and then check out people know where to find us at this point I feel like.

[01:16:39] They know their after pod thereafter podcast on Instagram. Patreon.com slash thereafter pod right here wherever you're listening to this if you hit the follow button or the subscribe button or the whatever button it is on that platform so that you get our episodes as we drop them in whatever inconsistent interval we do come along for the ride and come hang out with us on Tuesday mornings.

[01:17:09] Over on clubhouse where Megan and I met.

[01:17:13] No yeah we did meet on clubhouse still such a beautiful spot.

[01:17:18] One other shout out to Jared who live threads I guess you would say live not tweets but puts out on threads just a live thoughts of him listening to the podcast every time we have a new episode was gonna say every week but we've been so inconsistent but it's always fun.

[01:17:39] To see his reactions and his feedback and so if you're interested in that check it out on threads.

[01:17:45] Jared.

[01:17:47] Absolutely. All right well that'll do it.

[01:17:50] All right until next time.