106 - Benjamin Faye Returns | DEI, CRT, Woke & Other Terms Used As Slurs by The Right

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content. Things are going to get worse before they get better. The point is present to me as an American does not look, give us a hard time for being white, being American and being controlled.

[00:00:53] And then you ask me whether I approve of violence, or that just doesn't make any sense at all. Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening right now. And you know what? We need a space where we can debrief some of it and deconstruct.

[00:01:09] If you've been looking for a POC-centered podcast that engages with intersectionality, religion, critical race theory and some hip hop culture, then you need to check out Profane Faze. I'll be your host, Daniel WhiteHodge, and we go in every other week.

[00:01:24] So check us out wherever you find your podcasts, or check us out at whitehodgepodcasts.com to see what other platforms we're on. Cool? I, peace! Okay. Welcome to the thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:52] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray. In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a better wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism. We've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:02:09] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith, we're finding and co-creating space where hope and healing. Come along as we explore the all-too-opt and uncharted experience of evangelicalism you all be paid in the life and thereafter.

[00:02:28] All right. Welcome back to another episode of The thereafter podcast. I feel welcome. We have a welcome in May. We have a special guest for intro today. So we just decided, we're going to do it all.

[00:02:54] We're going to have Benji come join us for the whole thing, do a guest interview, but also be here for the intro. Welcome Benji. Say hello. I'm not a news, I'm a fun. Return guest. It's always exciting when we have return guests.

[00:03:09] It's very fun to be doing this long enough to have people come back and hang out again and again. Absolutely. And I also, if you haven't heard Benji's episode previously on thereafter, I think we had you last season. Was it this season? Last season?

[00:03:29] Oh, maybe. I haven't last season. It was a while ago. All the seasons blend together. I feel like we've been in this season for like three years. I don't think it has been, but I just feel like... Post locked down and it all kind of runs together really.

[00:03:43] Yeah, totally does. What has it been a year since 2020? I don't know. Well, you're always have a lot of great things to say about social media and different things.

[00:03:54] And so I wanted to make sure that we got you in also for the intro because we have a couple of post tweets, things to debrief. What do you want to start with Instagram? Is that where we're going to start? Let's start with the Graham slam.

[00:04:07] Let's do it. So we have this account that is from... I don't know who this guy doesn't even list who he is on his page. But he has like 50,000 followers. And talks about church hurt. He says church hurt is not an excuse when we know the healer.

[00:04:26] Are you kidding me? So just briefly, he talks about trauma. It's something we have to heal from, not something that we have to worship. And really talks about how he feels that people are just turning their trauma into their God

[00:04:41] and that they're thinking that deconstructing is easier than reconciliation. And they need to go find healing and not let pain determine their purpose. So let's chat about that a little bit. I would love to hear your reactions to this post. Yeah. So like, right?

[00:05:04] I have an instant reaction. Because I said shit like this. Like when I was... Pasturing and planting churches. And I think that it really... For me is... It really is clear that this person does not have context for what... actual deconstruction or actual church hurt.

[00:05:32] Which aren't the same thing, right? I have church hurt in my background. I have... I was abused. I have abusers that were a part of church all of that. And I have my de-conversion deconstruction.

[00:05:43] Which I feel is like pretty separate from my view of like my abuse and stuff in church. But both of those things... I feel like it comes really clear and really obvious when people talk about those things from a place of never really experiencing them.

[00:06:01] It's similar to bringing it a little bit of like a non-monogamy polyamory thing to be that guy. He talked about it all the time. But like... Like I talked to people who are like, oh, I'm not a jealous person.

[00:06:12] I don't have a jealous bone in my body but I've never had a opportunity to feel jealous. Right? And then all of a sudden they experience something that makes them feel jealous. And they're like, oh my god, I'm having...

[00:06:25] And it's like, yeah, you just like, you know, have never had that experience before. And you're talking about it as if you know something about it and you have no context. That's... That's my news reaction.

[00:06:39] It's like it's very clear that this man has not experienced these things that he's talking about. My reaction was very, very similar to your equivalent in the sense that there was that slide that said that,

[00:06:51] you know, the truth is because they liked it because the truth is what they say it is. It starts when they say it starts. Truth is deconstruction is easier than reconciliation, which is my sign that he has experienced neither of those things.

[00:07:05] Because let's be very clear about something. Anybody who thinks that deconstruction is easy has never experienced deconstruction. The very nature of deconstruction is taking something apart. Which means that it's a disassembling thing. So at a minimum, that means that the world you experience is now a different thing.

[00:07:22] And that engenders a lot of different emotions, a lot of things you're maybe not used to feeling. If you've been able to feel your emotions at all.

[00:07:29] So to say that it's easy in any regard, it is a sure sign that he's never experienced deconstruction and what wants to be able to lag his finger at it. And also reconciliation. Let's talk about what reconciliation actually means in this context.

[00:07:44] What they mean is I think what they're saying is like that Matthew 18, like, you know, be reconciled to your brother. What they're really talking about is suppression. What they're really saying is you have this really heavy feeling.

[00:07:56] Let's only get to it to a surface level and then get rid of it. And then we'll call it all good because Jesus. And that is how a lot of people have had to grin and bear it through church.

[00:08:09] If you've experienced anything like me, if you've experienced racism or things like that within church, It's like be reconciled to your brother, which is basically like, oh I have to face my abuser. Yeah, like effectively. It's like you were mentioning nominogamy.

[00:08:25] The reason why a lot of people stay in marriages is because they feel a pressure to be reconciled when things happen. When the reality is like bad things are happening to them and no one wants to acknowledge it. Because burying it is easier than reconciliation. Ironically enough.

[00:08:43] So this is misguided. But the goal was not accuracy. The goal was to be cool. As you said, Megan, you said that this person has no church affiliation that they've listed in their bio or anything. But they have 56,000 followers. I'm like you're trying to be an influence.

[00:09:05] You're not trying to be the church. You're not trying to advocate for the church. You come on here with your pretty fonts and are trying to basically sell people an idea.

[00:09:15] But mainly what you're trying to sell them out is the idea that you are wholly or that now. Because you have no rooting in anywhere. Like anybody, even the people I came from will be like where's your church affiliation? Where do you come from?

[00:09:29] They would have a problem with this guy. And so I just, I don't know. These things give me the ikk because you can see through it. You can see through it. And of course as 11,000 likes.

[00:09:42] Because I think most of the people aren't really bothering to dig deeper if they've even been given the space to dig deeper at all.

[00:09:50] Yeah, but the funny thing is first of all, with my response when I commented on this post and was like basically saying go to your abuser to find healing from your abuse, right? And but also I agree Benji, when you're saying he's trying to be cool.

[00:10:05] I feel like whether I don't think he's a pastor, I don't really understand his role. But no matter what it feels like people are trying to reconcile with what's happening with deconstruction and they're trying to explain it away. And that's my think that's been the go-to is okay.

[00:10:22] People have church hurt. People have trauma. And they're kind of saying like, instead of handling it the way they should, quote unquote, should, they're handling it in these poor ways by leaving their faith or deconstructing.

[00:10:37] And it's the same thing that's happening when we see church abuse and we see these scandals of abusers, people are like, Oh, well, we need to separate that from the capital sea church or what crisis actually doing. And they're not really getting to the root of anything.

[00:10:54] And like you said, it's very surface level. I also just have to point out that the guys caption on the entire post talks about going to Hawaii. That's my, like I just want to notice that while we were talking because we have it up.

[00:11:07] It says, I remember going out this incredible hike at Hawaii and a couple asked the tour guide, why is this hike so hard? The tour guide replied, the best thing in life, the best things in life are the hardest to get to.

[00:11:20] And it's just like he's talking about how, you know, the road to healing is hard, but it's worth it. And like he said that means he really really does. That makes me think of vacation. Oh, it's so out of touch. It's so out of touch.

[00:11:37] So I also think that there is this, there's this false narrative that that that is the heart of the thing. And that that not going back to church, that there's this binary.

[00:11:54] That that that you know he's like go back to church do the hard thing as if those are synonymous as if like going back to church might not actually be the easy thing to do.

[00:12:07] Like like as if there's no way to do a complicated hard, messy restorative thing in some way. And so I think that that's really, I mean in its Instagram right it's like these quips these sound bites.

[00:12:23] But like it's this painting of that that is, you know, of course, like the hard thing to do is to go back and to be a part of a church again when in reality.

[00:12:34] Like that was the easier, more comfortable path for so many of us for so long. And that the actual path of leaving, re- discovering some sense of community and purpose and passion outside of this formula that we were handed through evangelicalism.

[00:12:56] That was actually the hard work that was actually the uncomfortable thing. I mean, I can't tell you how many youth rallies I went to where it was like you got to get uncomfortable.

[00:13:08] You got to get outside your comfort zone and I'm like nothing is more uncomfortable than de-converting.

[00:13:15] Like it's fucking uncomfortable, right? And so like my whole experience of that, I kept having these moments of like, oh this, I've never related to Jesus more than when I stopped following him.

[00:13:31] Right, but also to that point, can we talk about what hard means in the church? Like he was talking about going on a hike in Hawaii. Like what do you know about heart? Yeah.

[00:13:44] Like the church is gotten to a place particularly white even delgiture, just gotten to a place where it's so privileged that it cannot adequately distinguish between hard and situationally inconvenient.

[00:13:56] So it's like for them, like this, this just runs against things. I just don't like this. It's like no actually like for some of us, this is our life. Like for people who've had to be closeted, like they say their life.

[00:14:11] So this idea of like what's hard is relative because they've never really experienced hardship most of them.

[00:14:19] Yeah, a thousand percent. Not to mention too that and we don't even have to get into it but there are so many people that the trauma comes from the deconstruction process that it they're not leaving necessarily because of church trauma.

[00:14:34] There's a lot of people that are leaving because of religious trauma and abuse. But the trauma comes from the toxic theology. The trauma comes from like you said being closeted.

[00:14:46] The internalized queer phobia all of the misogyny, all of the racism. There's trauma that's within the church that they're not even mentioned in this post because they're like, you're worshiping your trauma and it's like no there's trauma and like use a courtland having to leave.

[00:15:02] It's yeah. We have another tweet that we were going to talk about, twist on for our truth and this was something that I threw out and I don't even know what I was like it was late.

[00:15:18] I wasn't even you know really thinking through but I just was like I give frustrated because of the whole Bible clearly says and so I put out something you know the way read the Bible is an interpretation

[00:15:31] translation you choose to read is an interpretation the resources you're told to use to help make the Bible easier to understand contain interpretations and then went on to say if you're using the Bible to justify you know all these hateful things.

[00:15:45] Then you're choosing your interpretation of the Bible over humans and honestly I didn't even think it would get seen that much and people got big mad over this and there was a lot.

[00:15:55] There were a lot of conversations about you know translation like oh but if you go if you're a scholar and you go to the original text no you still like I speak another language I speak Spanish no that is still an interpretation when you translate something there's not a word for word translation

[00:16:13] I'm curious your thoughts to not just about the original I know I'm pretty sure I know what you all think about the interpretation but just the way people try to flex like no it's not an interpretation but also you're wrong and I'm right and I'm like so what do you think.

[00:16:35] So many thoughts. And it almost none of them are positive like it's just why do you feel the need to be so right about this.

[00:16:47] Like the thing that should create curiosity and you is creating rigidity and I don't understand why that is like what are you trying to work out.

[00:16:58] In the way that anger is a secondary emotion I feel like this dogmatic approach is a secondary approach that's being used to kind of cover either cover over or you're trying to work something else out through this thing.

[00:17:11] What is that and maybe that's like me putting on an SEL coach hat but it's like. I don't I don't understand why it's so hard to be wrong because the reality is that the Bible is what you read into it in a lot of ways.

[00:17:27] Unless anyone here happens to be just you know who in an era make and you know and Greek and Hebrew and it's like.

[00:17:36] All there are our interpretations and we're going to read our experiences into them so the idea that there is one unilateral way this all works kind of. It negates any.

[00:17:51] Intersections it negates any possibility of any lived experience outside of the person who is insisting that they have it the right way it's very. I don't even know what the word is to describe it but it's just very.

[00:18:06] Yeah and that's that's what I was going to say is that there's this like very like like. Narrow window of. Cultural. Philosophic thought like this modernist thought that that says like there is a. Specific literal exact noble.

[00:18:32] Thing to know about any given thing right and then it's raging against where we've been for a long time in a postmodern thought. That realized oh that's actually not true and where we were for thousands of years before in a premodernist thought that you know like.

[00:18:52] Didn't even have a conceptualization of if that's a word conceptualization there didn't even have a concept of like.

[00:19:03] Fundamentalist factual literal you know definitions right and so like there's this very very little narrow window of human history where people were like oh everything can have this very unchanging specific defined.

[00:19:23] Reality it was after the kind of the discovery of the scientific method and before we did a little bit of science and realized oh. Shit is way more complicated.

[00:19:34] And and and people are just stuck there and I think that the most surprising thing to me is that people conflate that way of thinking with like.

[00:19:45] The early church or with like Abrahamic faith or early Judaism or Adam and Eve right like like they're like this is and I'm like no it's a very. Very modern and yet still completely outdated way of thinking to think that anything has a unchanging tangible literal factual defined.

[00:20:14] Specificity language we know is not like that. Matter we know is not like that time is not like that you go to high altitude time moves faster you to lower altitude time moves slower everything is.

[00:20:29] Flexible so this idea that anything has this like rigid specificity I just think that it's funny that it's like like I talked to people like my dad proud fundamentalist he literally believes that that's like that was the mindset Adam and Eve had. Like that is the original correct.

[00:20:49] And I mean we're reading the ESV. Yeah, and they named all the animals white literally tiger bear. Like in English. I think it was a round.

[00:21:10] I just want to say what's interesting about this the reaction in the comments and then in this whole thread is that there are Christians arguing in there there are people that have no faith that are arguing in there.

[00:21:22] Because one of the comments that came up is somebody said yeah absolutely even like the the wicklive Bible translators the missionaries they'll be the first to say yeah when we're translating we have to make interpretive decisions about what to put in the language you know and so people that know language know that this is a fact and there's people that are like, you know their scholars that can do this literally and they can do the you know word for word translation and I was like okay so

[00:21:51] if you take just the word for pig and English versus the word for pig and Spanish it depends on like are you talking about the pig that you're going to eat on and you have like pork or you talking about like the animal on the farm or you talking about like like there's so many there's like six words for just the word pig and it all depends on the context that you're using it in and if you are saying a sentence and you use the wrong one it can have a totally different meaning and so basic language principles alone.

[00:22:18] It's like okay there's there's a lot to unpack there but I just thought it was curious that it was Christians as well as people that weren't that were post Christian or not Christian that were arguing about all this because I was like the they're.

[00:22:36] And I'm sorry that belief in interpretive license is going to make everything fall apart is so evident here. Yeah or they're belief that that.

[00:22:49] Interpretive difference is somehow some sort of a gacha to disprove faith right this is where atheist drive me fucking bonkers because like like they're like oh the Bible is like written by all these different people and it's so unreliable and I'm like.

[00:23:04] It's not science it's not and even that is like it's okay and that's why it's like you know harmful and I'm like. I don't know just the rhetorical goal of like needing to disprove is to me just as toxic and maybe not just as toxic but it's close.

[00:23:22] To to missing the point as much as people who rhetorically need to prove things because both of those are silly ways to look at this.

[00:23:34] What do you win when you disprove something like that's what I'm that's what I'm curious about like some of these people are in like a title fight like what do you win if like or if you're like the most righteous what do you what do you like when you get to the top of the mountain.

[00:23:49] Do they hand you like the glowing piece of the agrocrack like what do you get in return for all of your effort on Twitter like you know like is God looking at you.

[00:24:01] Like is this where like the omnipotent is it's like the like that they end of the omnipotent for you where you're like God is watching me so I have to be right and defend his honor on Twitter and it's just like.

[00:24:14] If God is all powerful why do they why does they need a lawyer I don't understand that you know and so it's just like the like the psychology of it like what.

[00:24:24] And you're kind of touched on it like what are you so scared to lose that you need to suppress this and why is this the avenue.

[00:24:32] Because if Jesus is the thing you're defending Jesus is your healing Jesus is all of this stuff for you like you end up sounding with that first guy we were talking.

[00:24:40] And that's when you get into those types of things where it's like I don't need to go to a therapist because Jesus is my healer. I don't need to like you know go no cop with that contact with anybody because I reconcile it's like no you don't.

[00:24:53] You're just using other people and swatting down their beliefs to make yours more important and you think that's right just that's it's. Yeah, it's sad.

[00:25:01] I think the answer to what you get or what you win if if Megatric pastors and Christian influencers throughout history have told us it's an an fedamine dependency and a porn addiction.

[00:25:13] I think is like what ends up like that's what they got if you don't have the one to true interpretation. Sorry, Megat, I interrupted you. No, you're good. It's great.

[00:25:27] I also the the other thing I just need to add as I feel like people in trying to defend that the Bible's not an interpretation were actually proving my point because they were like. It is not an interpretation the Holy Spirit tells you how to read the Bible.

[00:25:46] I don't like okay, so you're interpreting it based on how you sense the Holy Spirit leading you.

[00:25:52] Okay, you know we're like it's not an interpretation but what you just said about the Bible is wrong and it's like okay, so you like I do have a different interpretation than you and you're you're acknowledging that.

[00:26:05] And so it's it is just it was wild to see how they were tripping over themselves trying to prove their point. It's like it's like the thing that's like you know flatterthers can't be wrong millions of around the globe are all convinced you know that it's like.

[00:26:24] Say it again real slowly you know million in the office around the globe or convince here at this flat okay whatever. Oh man.

[00:26:32] Well let's pivot we're gonna have Benji put on his I'm the guest on the podcast hat and we're gonna ask some questions but I one of the reasons like I and there was there's so many things that you've put out on social media recently that I would love to just talk to you about but one of the first things that I that you tweeted that I.

[00:26:52] I wanted you to come back and talk about this on the podcast is really the way that conservatives or.

[00:27:00] Fundamentalists are kind of policing language and saying okay there are these buzzwords that you have to look for DEI and and all of these you know and I there were some other pieces in that.

[00:27:15] It was DEI and then you talked about oh CRT and being woke and all of these things and so.

[00:27:22] I'm curious if you want to just talk about what as you've seen this evolve because you've seen this evolve so as you've seen it over the last couple years moving to like okay let's have our DEI initiatives and then it's like oh let's that DEI is now a bad word and that's you know.

[00:27:39] We're gonna demonize that word so I just just talk about kind of as you've seen it evolve what your reaction has been and like what do we even do with people that are like. We just can't use those words we can't use those terms that kind of thing.

[00:27:51] Well okay so the important thing to understand about all these terms woke CRT and DEI is like you know. Like many things that conservatives and evangelicals get mad about it existed long before their understanding of it so the term woke goes back to the 30s.

[00:28:09] And it was a term that was used initially to keep black people safe because we were getting killed in discriminately by white people at the time and so it was stay woke because they out here that was the original concept.

[00:28:23] The concept of DEI is actually derived from an executive order so the executive order was the first time we ever saw affirmative action in play so this is 1961 we're talking so President Kennedy was basically saying.

[00:28:37] With all deliberate speed make sure that you are not having any regard for like race or anything that can be a discriminant you know we don't want that to be involved.

[00:28:48] That of course evolved when the silver rights act got passed in 64 and I think the following year Lyndon Johnson passed another law that basically was an executive order not so much a law that said that.

[00:29:02] So that if you're working a government job that government cannot discriminate against you for you know, creed or race or anything like that and of course the gender conversation really wasn't a part of it yet. Number one because women wouldn't be able to get you know.

[00:29:21] Credit cards in their own name for another 10 years or so and then also it would still be another 20 25 years before we had the term intersectionality which came about around the same time as CRT so like late 80s early 90s.

[00:29:33] So all of these terms have existed in different spaces and have existed for a long time and also most of these are frameworks.

[00:29:42] They are things that were used to evaluate and maybe have a better understanding of the world around us intersectionality is a little bit different in that it's kind of a framework but it also has teeth somewhere else it's basically. I meant to give us understanding about.

[00:30:01] How each person interprets life and where there are prejudices where there are discriminations and also where there are privileges you know so what are things that I will deal with that a black woman won't versus what are things that a white person would do with that I want like.

[00:30:16] And so the things like that these things have existed for a long time but it's not until they get traction in a positive way that conservatives feel a need to kind of put a tamper on it.

[00:30:26] So what we've been seeing in the last five years or so are a lot of conservatives and a lot of people who. A lot of conservatives and a lot of people who are.

[00:30:40] Basically seeing like oh wait all the things we don't want which is where people having a life that's free. Black and brown people having like that's free.

[00:30:54] All these things they they never wanted are now happening and so now there are some things as an affront to them because they see equality as an affront because they've been at the top of the food chain for so long.

[00:31:05] So a lot of the pushback is that feeling of being threatened that feeling of you are coming and trying to take my spot when the reality is like I don't want your spot.

[00:31:16] I just don't think that you should have everything to yourself I think there's a more than enough to go around for us to share the wealth and they don't want that. So any attempt to demonize DEI or woke or CRT is trying to appeal up to a base.

[00:31:33] That only wants for white people to succeed. Yeah, it's really the one in the short of it. And can you talk a little bit about. In addition to that right the demonization of these these words and these ideas anybody who.

[00:31:50] I guess perpetuates or supports them or has them be a part of their platform or their campaigns or you know organizations or whatever right there's that piece of it right this company. You know, track your supply was like you've got you know track your supply.

[00:32:06] Yeah, DEI you know you've got your clearly liberal your clearly pushing a woke agenda etc etc. So there's there's that and and then there's also just the terms being used to pretty blatantly.

[00:32:24] And on their face replace the inward right like like you look at you know Mayor Brandon Scott I just looked up who is the mayor and Baltimore during the bridge collapse.

[00:32:38] And this last year there were people tweeting people talking about the DEI mayor DEI mayor DEI mayor DEI you know this it kept saying this thing that's you know this is you know this bridge failure was because this mayor was elected by.

[00:32:56] And by people in the city voters and the city of Baltimore like like there was no DEI initiative that it was because this mayor was a black man. That people began say so like.

[00:33:09] And the same thing happened with Alaska Airlines when the door blew out they were like oh this is the DEI like there's there blaming everything happening and it's like. It's just code for wanting to be racist and say things I you know I would love to hear.

[00:33:24] Yeah, your thoughts. Yeah, no absolutely that's exactly what it is. It's picking up the idea that so I guess in other way of saying it is there's a tendency amongst bigoted white people. To blame black people for the byproducts of things they created.

[00:33:41] So this idea that black people are not educated. Is what underscores a lot of this vitriol they're saying that DEI is putting black people in positions they don't deserve.

[00:33:55] And which is silly because the very premise of DEI is the premise of affirmative action, which is the presumption that the person is qualified to do the thing. But that this color their skin has precluded them from other things so it should not be a preclusion here.

[00:34:12] But they've completely obscured all that if they even knew the history at all. So this idea that black people are not intelligent is born of the idea that I think the United States is one of the only nations.

[00:34:24] If not the only nation that had anti-littler's who laws on its books specifically to make sure that black people could not learn how to read and write. And this went on for a hundred years even just a little bit after civil war.

[00:34:39] So even if black people were less intelligent which is not true it would be because of things that white people did. Oh black people are poor why is that we're black people city planning?

[00:34:52] We don't own anything because black people because white people decided to own everything and hoard all the wealth. So if we're poor or if we're put in parts of cities that are less affiliate it's not because we just don't want to try hard enough.

[00:35:05] It's because you put us in positions where you own all the things that we rely on and don't upkeep them. If it's about work at that why is there a hood in every city? Somebody had to plan that.

[00:35:21] And that's a bigger like Robert Moses' conversation about architecture and how things are built. But really all of these ideas or these quote unquote justifications for the vitriol are based in these things that have existed since the plantation days.

[00:35:37] These notions that black people are not intelligent therefore they shouldn't have access to things. It was what underscored people wanting to sterilize black women in the fifties where it's like the term they use was feeble minded. They're not intelligent enough to carry children or take care of children.

[00:35:55] But it's interesting if you understand the history of black women taking care of white children on plantations.

[00:36:01] So yeah I feel like it's a distortion of history and they're basically taking that distortion and repackaging it to people who probably wouldn't be aware of the history anyway because it's not being taught in the areas where they grew up.

[00:36:16] Like I know somebody who grew up in a place where their instruction as far as civil war was radically different.

[00:36:26] And as a person that grew up in North Florida as somebody who went to high school in southern New Jersey, what I heard about civil war was very different. They didn't even know that the union one.

[00:36:39] So there's a lot of pieces to this. There's a lot of analysis and you can get into a lot of things even the southern strategy and how that affected everything. But, and that's more of a political thing, southern strategy.

[00:36:50] But ultimately it's obscuring history to sell this idea that DEI is evil which leads to things like you were talking about.

[00:36:58] I think that people who perpetuate this are just like like are consciously aware because it seems obvious that like like as all headline and opinion piece, it was in you know newsbakers of thing.

[00:37:11] And it was like Harris you know possibly might become you know nations first DEI vice president like do you do you do you. Is that person aware that they are just using DEI as a slur for possible black president.

[00:37:28] If their brain doesn't their body, that comes from somewhere like and it's something that they were taught.

[00:37:38] And it's funny because you know there's that's not the first time things have been said about common la Harris like the things that were said about common la Harris and the exact same things that were said about Barack Obama.

[00:37:50] They blame Barack Obama for like all kinds of things that happened in World War II, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[00:38:03] And it's like Barack Obama was born in 1961 there's no way he could have done any of these things. Or when he was running it was of all people Donald Trump asking to see his papers. Yep.

[00:38:13] The same thing happened when Kamala Harris was vice president was the vice president of candidate people were like let's see her papers with CEO paper. Yeah. Kamala Harris is from Oakland, California. I bet everything I own that if Melania decided to run nobody would check for her papers.

[00:38:33] Let's see Trump's tax returns. Yes. Yeah. Like, like so like this whole thing about the first DEI. Like are they, are they, they know Kamala Harris was prosecutor. Yeah. They know that. Like and even if you don't know it's very easy to verify.

[00:38:55] Like she was and only was she like a prosecutor but she was a prosecutor in a very high profile position. So they absolutely know when they're saying these things because they're saying it to garna support.

[00:39:10] They're saying it to as I said earlier they're trying to like excite the base and keep them interested and keep them connected. Whether they believe that is a separate issue in time. Yeah. And historically we see with words like jazz right like jazz is code for black right.

[00:39:29] Jazz was you know the evils of jazz, the dangers of jazz. These were all things that we're talked about in the white zeitgeist. Yeah. As code for we don't want our kids to get mixed up in the evils of jazz.

[00:39:43] That was that was just a way of people at that point in history saying we don't want our kids around black folks. Right. I'm like just either that or just say you don't like jazz or that you don't understand it. It's a complicated art. It's a complicated art.

[00:39:59] It's specifically code and it's like I guess it's just like it's so obvious to those of us sitting around talking about it. And it feels like people who are in it, like you said if their brain doesn't know their body knows there's like it's like they're it's subconscious.

[00:40:14] Like I hear people use the word woke and it sounds like it has a hard art. Like it has like the way that you are saying it sounds like a slur.

[00:40:27] Like it sounds like you want to be, you know and I just don't know how people seemingly don't connect the dots and go, I am a racist person. Like how does that not happen? It's I mean if you want to have a musical connection, the disco sex conversation.

[00:40:50] So if for those who don't know, disco sucks was something that happened in the summer of 79 which kind of ended disco music in terms of its popularity. And it was basically something where it's like I think the child of the guy who owns the white socks.

[00:41:09] Basically didn't like the fact that disco was being played more than like Led Zeppelin or something like that on certain channels and then they started going disco sucks. The problem is that disco was a very, very black and very, very queer medium.

[00:41:24] And so after white like it became very homophobic and very racist. Within the context of music but they weren't saying the hard art. They were just saying like I don't know I don't like this expression. I don't want because they said the same thing about hip hop.

[00:41:39] They say the same thing about like oh I don't want you know my kids getting caught up in that blah blah blah blah.

[00:41:49] Mind you if you listen to hip hop you learn very quickly that is a very evolved art form that requires an understanding of a great many things including politics and pop culture like.

[00:42:01] If if you're a hip hop head you have to understand a lot of stuff in order to be one of those but they're only taking it at the face value of like oh you're talking about black people black people are violent you know or black meat like I was thinking about this earlier somebody might hold up like boys in the hood or like a black movie and say.

[00:42:17] That's violent and I would submit to them that you don't actually care about violence because a film like boys in the hood is considerably less violent than the first 15 minutes of saving part of time. You're just justified violence based on who's doing it.

[00:42:33] Or better yet your very godfather or scar face right like actual criminals people like oh hip hop glorifies crime like come over here and let's watch the godfather the fuck like it is clearly racist.

[00:42:47] I have a couple different directions that I want to go but but while we're in this music direction I need to say that I was in Nashville recently and I was at the country music Hall of Fame museum.

[00:42:59] And there was this corner exhibit where it talks about because I mean we all think Nashville we all think country right it talked about how it used to be a hub of was a jazz I think and and then it said.

[00:43:12] But it shifted when I think it was Jefferson Street or there was a street it said it shifted when Jefferson Street was basically a district for urban renewal and I was like wow I feel like that phrase urban renewal has a lot in there and I have to know more because.

[00:43:32] When we think about country music and there's a lot of racism and there's now we have black artists that are coming into country music and so we're like having this conversation more openly I think.

[00:43:41] I think that like there's this hidden spot that I never knew about in this history that I never knew about the came out of Nashville where it sounds like there was a thriving black musical community that just got mode over for this quote unquote urban renewal which basically means white people pushing people away I mean is that like do you know this history is that something that.

[00:44:05] In your because I know you're like a musical. Nared you can say. Yeah, yeah, yeah I embrace it I embrace it I actually did not know the history that history of Nashville.

[00:44:18] But it does not surprise me because of how that's happened in other places I mean it's the Seneca Village thing over again if if you're not familiar if you're listening enough familiar.

[00:44:31] Seneca Village was an area where black and Irish people lived in New York and got along and had like you know just. Fellowship of community it was eventually mode over in. You know manifest destiny and all that stuff and it became what is now central park.

[00:44:48] There are several places in the United States where things are mode over but even country music itself.

[00:44:56] If you know the history of how the banjo came to America it came within slave people it would like at least the earliest versions of what we now know is the banjo and they would play it on plantations.

[00:45:08] There are the old the slave owners liked that and they began learning to play the banjo and every so often they would have parties where they would get dressed up in blackface and play banjo and sing songs about how great slavery was and how well they were being treated and that turned off a lot of.

[00:45:25] The enslaved people as you can imagine which you know is why there aren't a whole lot of black people who play banjo save for like you know rean and kittens and like a handful of people that we know prominently.

[00:45:39] Even rean and kittens is feels like reclamation of a sword because it's just not something that's what we have part of black heritage just kind of isn't being tapped to very often.

[00:45:47] But we resort to other things you know that's I believe that's partially why the guitar came into.

[00:45:54] I think it's like more and that's where we got into jazz and I feel like that's where we see people like Charlie Christian and Robert Johnson and you know West Montgomery and all the people that kind of came up out of that.

[00:46:05] My water is not like blues and all these American art forms came from that oppression.

[00:46:12] I can't think of a single musical art form in America music that did not come from black people like a white guy gave rock and roll the name before that it was you know sister was at a start sister was at the farpsing and you know gospel music with a Gibson SG is ripping like so I didn't.

[00:46:33] Know that about. Nashville specifically but it's what's happened to black people historically in America and not just in terms of housing it's art it's any any output that black people have given.

[00:46:48] To what is now known as Americana is kind of taken from us and created some else even Gen Z slang most of that is a V like sus like we were using that 20 30 years ago.

[00:47:04] Bus in that's been that's been in black culture for years it's like you're just attaching it when you call it Gen Z slang it's just groups of people that took that language from black people yeah and even even in it's not just.

[00:47:19] I mean even things like drag culture comes very much from ballroom culture from you know and originating source of people of color doing ballroom and and.

[00:47:32] Black women in general many of the mannerisms that we see in queer speak and that sort of persona is very much adopted from.

[00:47:47] Black women and those manners of those those ways of speaking and and so it's not just I mean and we think of those communities in terms of drag culture and you know gay men culture as being you know air quotes progressive.

[00:48:02] But white gay men in New York City were kicking trans women of color out of their bars on a nightly basis in the eights you know I mean that was.

[00:48:16] White gay men are just barely a step away from the most evil level of oppressor and we forget that I think sometimes especially as a white queer man.

[00:48:27] Yeah I think sometimes it's easy to forget that the whole concept of pride started with a trans black woman throwing a break. That's what it was.

[00:48:37] So the irony of like you throwing a trans black woman out of somewhere that a trans black woman gave you is really dark but extremely American. I absolutely I okay there's a couple different places I want to get into.

[00:48:57] I want to talk a little bit about politics because we brought it up a little bit and just but one of the things I just to kind of lead into this one of the things you talked about early on when we started this conversation is you talked about why people being afraid.

[00:49:12] Of being becoming the oppressed right and I feel like we've had this conversation I don't know if it was you and I I know I've had this conversation with other people about how once you're an oppressor.

[00:49:23] That's how you picture people thriving right that they're like projecting like we did this and so clearly this is the way to succeed is to become an oppressor now and so like you said it's like people you're like you know we're not trying to take over we're trying to just be in the space and it's like well white people kind of envision what that looks like to be.

[00:49:42] I'm taking over and being oppressive because that's what historically has been done and so I think that and then leading into. This fucking election.

[00:49:52] There's this perception of reality that people have going into this election and so we're looking at Trump we're looking at project 2025 which more and more people are finding out about there's a good John Oliver about it too.

[00:50:07] I'm also curious your thoughts because I know when you were visiting for content morning we had a lot of conversations about how Biden is pretty fucking awful too and what's going on in Palestine and so.

[00:50:17] There's like not really a sense of direction that people have right now and there's a lot of just questions and so I'm curious because you've tweeted a lot about. You know all of this stuff and so I'm just curious to get your takes on some of these conversations.

[00:50:35] Oh man so. The Biden conversation is a really interesting one because there's a lot of intersections here. There's a conversation about age, there's a conversation about mental security and relationship to age. There's an ageism conversation and then there's Palestine.

[00:50:55] I said this, I think I tweeted this but I think there has to be a conversation about age because there comes a point where. You become separated from the people you're serving if the age gap is wide enough.

[00:51:17] So even me the last time I was working in schools so about two years ago I was a social and emotional learning coach or middle school students here in Atlanta and even though I'm 20 years older than these kids like there's a gap there.

[00:51:33] The way they experience life the things they're saying, the way they think is so different than it was when I was there age and that wasn't packed about a lot of things. You know like homophobia was just part of jokes.

[00:51:50] When you watch friends my partner talks a lot about rewatching friends and how like this is a role it feels for them as like a non binary person where it's like you know fat jokes in queer jokes are a huge part of humor at that time whereas now that's just not going to fly.

[00:52:11] That's a difference of what 20 years, 30 years. Joe Biden entered public service 16 years before I was born. I forget he was joking about it.

[00:52:25] I think it was like Mason was joking about it that Joe Biden is literally a couple years older than you know the Bible having the word homosexuality in it.

[00:52:35] Yeah, the the stat that blew my mind was that Joe Biden's birth his birth was closer to the inauguration of Abraham Lincoln then it was to his inauguration. That's right. I think he was born closer to Abraham Lincoln's inauguration than his own.

[00:52:59] Yeah, because I think it was born in like 42 I think because I think he's going to be 82 this year.

[00:53:08] So there's just certain things there wasn't there were several Americas that Joe Biden got to experience that many of the constituents will not I mean you got to think about. The voting block includes people that were born in 2006.

[00:53:26] So they're not going to have a grid for the stuff I experienced I was born in the 80s so that's going to create a divide and that has to be talked about. Also being 81 does not mean you're not sharp it doesn't mean you can't be sharp.

[00:53:44] But what that means for Joe Biden can mean that maybe there's some areas where there's been some decline and some of that might be just because of just being tired like being the president isn't exhausting job.

[00:53:58] So some of that could just be running people like I remember Barack Obama looked different after four years and eight years. Oh yeah. So like that could just be part of it and I would understand that but that's also a reason to say hey.

[00:54:14] Maybe I need to hand this to somebody younger not because I'm not sharp not because I'm not capable.

[00:54:22] But just because there's more here than just capability that I need to think about there's the fact that I'm not going to be alive in the future that I'm making you know hash marks in.

[00:54:34] And so maybe at a minimum I can hand this off to somebody else now who that person could be I don't know.

[00:54:43] I think could it be common hairs I don't really know it would be interesting it will be our first female president it will be the first I think that's our first gen X president. Because Barack Obama was a young boomer.

[00:54:56] And so there will be a lot of first there but just because their first doesn't necessarily mean that that person is going to be right for the gig what are your thoughts on Palestine.

[00:55:06] And I think that is the biggest strike against Joe Biden right now is the fact that not only. Is everything he said about looking for a ceasefire you know or six weeks ceasefire first thoughts on a ceasefire that's a pause.

[00:55:21] A ceasefire means ceasefire means stop shooting that's that's just words mean things you know I mean and so you can't just you know massage them until they fit your narrative that that's what a ceasefire is it's a complete cessation of of of armament and and.

[00:55:39] He's said a lot of that stuff and given lip service but he's operating in a way he's operating as if social media doesn't exist. He's operating as though he cannot be fact checked in real time because the reality is.

[00:55:52] He's gone around Congress at least twice to fund this thing. Which means he doesn't even really care what they have to say about it. And so that blood is on his hands and the hands of every Democrat that has supported this.

[00:56:09] So there's a lot of reasons why Joe Biden is kind of shaky as a candidate 20 years ago. Well I can even say that 20 years ago this would have disqualify him because Lord knows we were in Iraq then. And we you know.

[00:56:27] We signed on for four more years of George W. Bush after that but 20 years ago. A weird noise ended Howard Deans and entire political campaign. I don't know about this. So Howard Dean was a Democratic candidate in 2004. And he gave this campaign speech.

[00:56:50] He's like, we're going to go to Arizona. I'm going to go there here and he makes this really, really silly laugh. That into the mic almost like a really excited that that's completely innocuous. You know it was just him being excited.

[00:57:04] But late night got a hold of it. I mean like Leno, Conan, everybody that was doing at the time got a hold of it and. And loosely made phone them in for it.

[00:57:11] Like they just eviscerated him and it ended up being the thing that took him out of the campaign. Yeah. Meanwhile, you know, fast forward 12 years later, Mr. Grab and body, you know what, barely registers. Yeah.

[00:57:25] So I think that there is this this interesting kind of conceptual thing that comes to mind when we're thinking about Biden, especially in contrast with Trump. Because I, I feel like what Biden has leaned into. It and Trump. Transn's ideology and I think that if Trump is chaos.

[00:57:54] Biden feels like his best bet is consistency stability status quo, right? So I know people who are radical. Quiddam quote radical leftist who are like, yeah, Trump. Trump, I would just what chaos I want to burn it down.

[00:58:11] I wanted to just it's just I'm just going to go Trump. Because I'm just so tired of this status quo even though I disagree with everything ideologically. There is a lot of people who are like, yeah, I don't Christian's a great example.

[00:58:25] I don't I don't agree with anything the man does he's he's an evil vile man, but he's mix and shit up. And I like that. And Joe Biden is like kind of that opposite polar to that.

[00:58:39] And I think that there's a lot of people, especially on the left, especially with them the democratic party that are not as compelled by those extremes. We're like, I don't want just crazy crazy and I don't want status quo for status quo.

[00:58:55] I want someone to be thoughtful and that feels impossible. Yeah, we don't have that that's not an option. Here's the thing, the whole concept of like, like if you want somebody to mix things up.

[00:59:07] The political space is not the place you get that done go to cold stone. Don't mix them up for your real quick. Like I don't like I'm not looking for that and also like what do we mean when we say consistency?

[00:59:20] Like because there are people who are consistently homeless. There are people who are consistently food insecure. So in your concept of consistency you're not considering the least of these, which means your consistency is based on somebody else having less consistently. So what are we really talking about here?

[00:59:41] Like what are you trying to maintain because what you're trying to maintain isn't working for somebody else? So the way to get what you actually want is progress. None of these people are interested in progress. Yeah, none of them. Homeless is increased by 12% in the last year.

[01:00:05] 600,000 people are sleeping outside right now. If you live near woods it is not impossible that there is a colony of people who have put their tents together and are sleeping in that little colony. If you live in Orlando, Florida, trust me there are dozens of them.

[01:00:25] Well, so it's like what do we actually want? Do we want to move forward? Are we thinking that probably already so siloed that we don't consider that our normalcy is actually harmful to somebody else?

[01:00:43] I think the conversation shifted a little bit and because I think for a while it was like okay people are going to not vote or be undecided or you know,

[01:00:51] And then I think as people started learning more about project 2025 and then as those Supreme Court decisions rolled out at the end of June.

[01:00:59] And then you know here's Biden on social media like if I'm reelected, I'm going to overturn what the Supreme Court has done to Roe V Wade and it's like you're literally president now. Why are you?

[01:01:12] I love and also Janice had the tweet he's like, sir what job do you think you have? Yes. It's like but also he doesn't have the ability to do that by himself.

[01:01:23] Yeah, like like he's literally saying because y'all's on the debate right like he said like if you reelect me all restore Roe V Wade and I'm like you've never had the power to do that even when Roe V Wade was a thing.

[01:01:35] But if you did and you're just waiting to be reelected, you're effectively holding women's reproductive rights hostage so you can get the political result you desire which is far which is incredibly troubling.

[01:01:53] It's wild, it's wild but this is what I'm talking about though like it's I think he's trying to create if not reinforce a characteristic relationship with Americans.

[01:02:06] Where it's like I'm going to dangle these things in front of you just so I can maintain this thing which means that his interest is not in progress removing the country forward. His interest is entitlement.

[01:02:21] I think a lot of people in political spheres not just the presidency feel that they are entitled to public office. So like people so they're just kind of white knuckle in it and holding onto the house. Especially older white men. I feel like that's what they're doing.

[01:02:38] But also we need to have the Ruth Bader Ginsburg Diane Finstein conversation as well about how it was time to hold on to time to give power to somebody younger and they both died in office which led to you know Mitch McConnell rushing Amy Coney Barrett through the process to make her a Supreme Court Justice.

[01:03:02] So that had very detrimental effects but you're not thinking about that when your thing is like I'm a career politician. Like I was thinking about like and it's also just like hoarding wealth amongst a group of people.

[01:03:14] Like when you think about when AOC entered Congress in the way people look down on her because she was a bartender. So it's like oh if you have contempt for her because of that what do you think about the people you have?

[01:03:29] That means like you have contempt for people in a way that manifests in a class disparity.

[01:03:34] Like I'm over here you're down there and that's the way this should work and they want to reinforce that and I think that's it play here because I think he's running for his ego.

[01:03:43] Like I am going to be the one who beats Trump when four years ago you were saying you were going to be a transition candidate.

[01:03:50] There's no air apparent and by the way that's a really dangerous precedent to set because like when it's like you're grouping somebody to take over.

[01:03:58] That removes the democratic process even back there was one you know so it's just I think this is exposing Joe Biden it's also exposing a lot of things about the political process that I think we weren't taught.

[01:04:12] You know at least people who grew up listening to like you know schoolhouse rock and you know I'm just a bill on Capitol Hill and how these things work like we have a very scholastic. You know idea of how it should work.

[01:04:26] To get only to get older and realize oh wait none of this works though yeah and and the system.

[01:04:32] I was I was dealing with Tim the other day about because I was just like when he was just like I just tell he was like talking about the stuff it was after the debate he was like it's exhausting and I'm terrified and he did the open line Friday on new evangelicals.

[01:04:46] And I was like like I mean it just brought me back to the work that we were doing when we were running when I was right you know helping run like Bernie campaign which.

[01:04:56] Bernie and you know a lot of the people associated with the Bernie campaign have problematic policy things we won't get it to but I'm just if you're listening to this and you're like oh there's problematic things sure.

[01:05:07] I'm not a Bernie bro I'm not good at but like Bernie was yelling about some of the shit in terms of the problem with the system.

[01:05:13] And I think that's where Joe Biden and the people who are really backing the Biden campaign are the true believers in the system that currently exists that adherence to that system will save us that as long as we hold to that.

[01:05:32] We will make slow progress towards something better over 10, 20, 50, 100 years etc. But they're not interested in progress like to your point, Benji right like when we talk about things like stacking the court or adding seats right like you bet your ass if.

[01:05:53] Biden won or Clinton Hillary won the first term and Trump won the second let's say that happened right and not Trump Biden it was Hillary.

[01:06:03] Trump and Hillary appointed two Supreme Court justices right Garland got in she you know and then you know would they able to point a second one and then Trump won.

[01:06:13] And you know what is Biden's presidency you bet your ass Trump would be trying to stack the court trying to get additional seats trying to change I mean these.

[01:06:23] But if our question want to change the constitution they want to take amendments away they want to do radical things to the to the system and so I think a lot of the people backing Biden are these people that are saying.

[01:06:39] No we need to protect the system and I think that that's where leftists go no like we need to change the fucking constitution let's.

[01:06:51] Scrape it let's start over and that's terrifying to democratic and republican institutional leaders who are like that's destabilizing and feels like the whole thing could fall apart and.

[01:07:04] You bring up a really important point there like what were the bones of this thing this was written for white slave owners so what about this is actually worth protecting.

[01:07:14] First of all like and number two show me a moment of progress that happened because we agree as to the system.

[01:07:22] It's never happened it's it's never happened it's not because we voted harder this one time than another you know and even so like the progress that we saw happened by us surfing.

[01:07:33] The system it's by people taking a stand against things it wasn't because we voted like to quote read against the machine the structure is said you'll never change it with a ballad pool you know I mean like you you're that wasn't.

[01:07:46] The thing that did it it was people stating sit-ins it was people protesting on college campuses it was people being willing to get sprayed by bull Connor. Like like.

[01:07:59] All of that push back it was campaigns from things as some things as big as black people having the right to vote to something as simple as let's honor Dr. King's birthday.

[01:08:11] That really because Reagan didn't want that like so there was a there was a big push in the early 80s for that to happen steve wonder wrote a song about it.

[01:08:20] Steve wonders happy birthday which is song at black functions everywhere started as a campaign to get Dr. King's birthday we recognize federally like these were things that worked outside in the pressure became so great.

[01:08:35] That also sort of like well we kind of have to do this because it isn't going away so it's not even that they wanted to do it it was just that like they'll be defined by how they reacted to the pressure and so.

[01:08:48] There's something to the idea that a lot of people are defending a system that is net that was never meant to stand for them.

[01:08:57] But because they've never known anything different and because their acquiescence to the thing and the trauma bond they formed to the constitution and this system. I so obscured their ability to reason that they simply lack the imagination.

[01:09:18] That is required to create something new when it is the imagination of bigoted people that it is the reason we are here like it's not about like I hear a lot of narrows about like well nobody gets what everything they want but.

[01:09:33] I'm not looking to get everything I want but there are people I know who are fundraising to keep their lights on. There are people I know who are doing mutual aid requests for medical procedures. Rosaries like. Mutual aid.

[01:09:57] Exists because of working system and community since that's why you're seeing things like community care being talked about more and there are great books that are going that go back to these concepts go back away is like Angela Davis was talking about the shit in the 60s.

[01:10:14] People who were connected to the black Panthers were talking about this in the 60s and by the way the panthers were writing about Palestine back then too you know so it's like. All of these little things that.

[01:10:29] The people who are talking about the things that are happening outside the system so if we're going to get forward the system isn't the thing yeah. Or at least not there and and I mean the principles we cannot idealize these principles.

[01:10:44] Over the values right like Andre Henry talks about in his book you know like the conflation between. And nonviolent when talking about resistance and people are you know instead of saying nonviolent resistance we say peaceful and it's like it's not peaceful.

[01:11:02] It's not it is not supposed to be peaceful it is supposed to be. Disruptive it is supposed to cause problems like you're resistance is supposed to be. Resistance it's not peaceful it's not violent it's not peaceful.

[01:11:20] And so these ideas that it's like oh well you know Trump is you know based in these values and that's why he's not doing these things.

[01:11:29] I would love to see him get over some of the principles and sign some executive orders to protect trans kids and to protect because I don't give a shit about you know we.

[01:11:41] We to conservatives you have to be up to the up to the up to the up to the day about how you know bomb a sign all these executive orders and you know is so such a tyrant.

[01:11:49] But Trump gets in there and does forces things down people's throats and conservatives stand up and clap because it is about an agenda not about these principles. Yeah.

[01:12:02] Also what is violence? I think we have this comment this idea in this concept of violence as a thing that happens on the far on the wrong side of a gun or the wrong side of a knife. When I mean, is not the concept of eviction violence? Yeah.

[01:12:21] Ripping somebody from their safety is not the concept of a credit score violent the idea that you need to be able to like the concept of earning your living. Learning your living is violence.

[01:12:35] You didn't work for your heartbeat. Why do you have to work for the context of that heartbeat? Why do you have to prove that? So violence assumes many forms. It's not just almost swing on this person.

[01:12:51] It's like, no I have power over you and I'm going to wield it in ways that are uncomfortable and detrimental to your well-being. That's violence too. So when the Biden administration says that they don't support surgeries for trans kids.

[01:13:08] The Biden administration says is like, just like, is that not violence too? I think a lot of people don't think of it as violence because they're not affected, but just because you're not affected by it does not change the reality of thing.

[01:13:23] Just because you're not affected by racism does not change the fact that I was constantly told that I wasn't working hard enough. When the reality is I'm a formerly homeless man compared to me, y'all don't know what heartwork is.

[01:13:35] But because you see my skin and all automatically assumed that I have no brain or that the brain that have does not function in a way that is conducive. Like it's just all of these preconceived notions come to come to the forefront when we have that conversation.

[01:13:56] So I think having a looser understanding of what violence is will change your ethics, it'll change your politics completely because then you realize like, oh wait. Violence has been happening the entire time.

[01:14:10] I'm just new to it because I haven't experienced that brand of violence, but I've probably experienced a brand of it. If you're queer, you've experienced it. If you're black and brown and queer, you've experienced it. If you're a woman, you've experienced it.

[01:14:24] If you're a black woman, you've experienced it. And that's not just like direct action, that's mechanism, that's systems. Things that were set up we were talking about De E I earlier. Like the single biggest beneficiary of affirmative action through its entire history was white.

[01:14:41] Yeah, yeah, the single biggest opponent of affirmative action for white women. So it's that of violence too, you know what I mean? So I think when we have that conversation about protest, when we say showing up as yourself is protest, that's what we're talking about.

[01:15:02] Because by the nature of somebody seeing you exist as yourself as an affront to their existence, your existence is protest. So I think having that the loose association is somewhere at tops.

[01:15:14] Well, I was just going to say, I love that we're getting into like abolition and activism and all of it. Like I love these conversations.

[01:15:22] I do because I'm looking at time too, but I also wanted the questions that we had recently in a clubhouse space that we had, just to kind of give us a little bit of energy.

[01:15:33] Because I also feel like sometimes we get into these conversations and they drain us because we're like, we start to feel hopeless.

[01:15:39] And so I would love to kind of come around full circle and talk about hope because I do feel like we need to when we have these conversations. We also, and sometimes we don't have hope and sometimes, and that's okay.

[01:15:52] I'm not trying to be toxicly positive, but I'm just trying to say it is hope that I think drives us forward when we are in activism spaces.

[01:16:00] And so I would love to hear if there's any negative wisdom of like what helps you continue to have hope, what brings hope if there's something now or if there's even like a something, some kind of ability that you have to recharge and refresh when you're able when you're in this space but then able to go away and say, okay, this is how I keep going.

[01:16:23] You know. Here's what I would say and for me, it's a little bit different because it's like there are things that have happened recently that have kind of been filling my tank and have given me hope.

[01:16:36] So for example, like if you saw me at content morning, I was technically unhoused at the time. I'm talking to y'all from a place that I live that has my address and like, that's the third time I beat homeless as in my adult life. What is impossible?

[01:16:59] Because think about it, that system is not designed for me to get out of it. It's designed to keep me there. It's designed to keep so many people there, but I'm here.

[01:17:14] So what's filling my hope tank right now is being able and I tweeted this, but like being able to stare impossible in this space and say, fuck you. And I'm like, if that can happen for this, why can't that happen anywhere else?

[01:17:34] If you want to adapt that to politics, why can't this be the preamble for people to believe in more? Why can't this be the pretext for people to say, hmm, what is community care? What is mutual aid?

[01:17:50] You know, what does it look like to actually be a neighbor to a person? Are there local, like that can extrapolate itself into are there local by nothing groups that I can attach myself to?

[01:18:03] Or we can trade things in barter and create systems and create new ways of living just within our struggles. Because here's the reality, nobody's coming over to hell. There's no magical candidate from a magical generation that's going to come in to a system and not become the system.

[01:18:26] That's just the reality of it. But when you look at the individual communities, the people around you and that's not always easy. You know, like that could be online.

[01:18:38] When you talk about people who are disabled or have comorbidities, like being outside in certain spaces, especially when nobody wants to mask anymore, is very, very dangerous. But there are these online communities, these spaces. You can connect to people, have conversations, maybe even do these mutual aid things.

[01:18:54] Yeah. That to me is where the hope lives, because it's like, oh wait. We're starting to realize what's been true all along, which is that we all we got. And now I'm seeing people lean into that.

[01:19:07] Yes, it's because of necessity and you would hope that people would recognize wouldn't wait for the near-immunit collapse of the capitalist escape to lean into that. But you're here now.

[01:19:22] And you're leaning into that and leaning into serving people as opposed to trying to push them off the ship and say, every man from self. Which is the desire of capitalism and everything in all of its friends. For me, that's where the hope is.

[01:19:37] People are seeing each other as humans again. Despite all of the Twitter vitriol and whatever. That's happening. People are thinking bigger. So for me, it's this wonderful zoom out that's happening. But people are becoming less insular and more communal because they have to be.

[01:20:00] But the way they're doing it is so beautiful and so warming to me. And I think that is my source of hope. And I know that's very, very much a me source of hope. But hopefully there's pieces of that that are cool. Somebody else I don't know.

[01:20:17] Yeah, I mean, it has to be localized. Like, like, I think, you know, to your point about political action or making systemic change. Like, and we hear this all the time from, you know, people in the political machine is like, you know, it's it's local.

[01:20:37] So it is, it is as close to you as you can get where you're going to be able to have bigger impacts.

[01:20:47] And sometimes these national stage things can be a distraction or can keep us from seeing the thing that's right across the street right across the room from this. And, and those are the things that I think are so important to remind ourselves,

[01:21:10] remind myself of that I can, you know, turn on John Oliver and I can get him raged. We can listen, you know, if you've been listening to his podcast, you know, you were all worked up. But like, look across the street. Look across the room.

[01:21:23] Look at, you know, across your friend group at like who is maybe not being cared for. As well as they could be as as as intentionally as they could be. How can we reshape and have I love the word imagination that you've used Benji like,

[01:21:42] how can we have a different imagination about how we get to work or how we make our food or where we get our food or, you know, all these things that touch us and impact us day in and day out. I love when people talk about that stuff.

[01:22:00] It really does make me realize like there's there is real actual things that I can do if I'm paying attention and looking around. Imagination is what we're going to need.

[01:22:12] I was watching two kids running around in the local IKEA recently and they had this whole world, the story line. And they didn't agree upon but they kind of agreed to, you know, like.

[01:22:26] And we're just running around and creating a world in their minds completely irrespective of the fact that people were shopping around them. And I'm like, what I wouldn't give to be that free to have like why can't we be that way about the world that we live in?

[01:22:46] It sounds ridiculous because we've been that the lie of virginity and we have to grow up and be these things but it's like no. We don't actually have to do these things there is like Andre had me says all the time, it doesn't have to be this way.

[01:23:00] We can imagine different things we can create a world where people don't necessarily have to suffer in the way that they have been suffering. And the operative where there is create and that requires imagination that requires the idea that there's no preset think.

[01:23:21] Like yeah, we've had a really shitty model but that's create another one. I mean enough of us have been through trauma enough to have to you know, repair ourselves and have to reshift the thinking in our brains why not this.

[01:23:32] Like you know dream like your life depends on it because it does.

[01:23:36] I think and I think it leads into like the communities that we're building you know and I think that that's something that we can't have to they they're not going to take that away from us, you know and so.

[01:23:45] Whether it's through content morning whether it's on social media whether it's you know the connections that we have I will just say this and then I we can wrap up but recently I started going on threads a little bit more and I forget that it's not as angsty you know I brought my angst from Twitter offered a threads.

[01:24:03] And there was a guy on there that randomly he had only written one other thread it was the second thread and he randomly was like hey to you deconstructing and he used quotes and he was like you know.

[01:24:14] Asked a couple questions and everyone attacked him like everyone just tormented pieces like oh why do you put it in quotes and what do you want and I even I quote we did it I was like or quote threaded or whatever and I was like.

[01:24:26] You know these people aren't in good faith or I never know if they are they're probably just writing articles about us and the guy responded and he was like.

[01:24:34] He's he's kind of going through deconstruction himself and he was like I I just have some curiosity I apologize for using the quotes I really just put it in quotes because I'm like is that we're still calling it these days and I was like oh man like I and I was like you know what that's really fair I have some questions that I'll ask you and and we had like a more civil conversation.

[01:24:55] But I was like what happened to that what happened to like the ability to to have people like hey can I ask some questions about this whole deconstruction thing and good faith and can we have a conversation.

[01:25:06] And it's like we've we've gone like four years however many years some of us 10 15 years down the road right and we're like.

[01:25:14] And we're like so ready to pounce and I just need to just take a step back and be like you know what I miss building community I miss making relationships I miss connecting with people that are on the similar journey and I also need to remember how many people held space for me when I was first starting to deconstruct that weren't like where have you been all this time you know and it's like I I see that and I'm you know I I'm like okay.

[01:25:41] What gives me hope is the community that's built whether it's online virtual whether it's in person whether it becomes in person from that community so yeah this has been a really great conversation.

[01:25:54] We're gonna we're gonna kind of wrap up with our normal feel before we do that I Benji plug your work where can people find you and how do you not have 30,000 followers on Twitter yet.

[01:26:04] I don't know I don't know so I am online at Hayther Benji on Instagram and TikTok I have not been on TikTok forever. I need to change that. I did like a music thing today so I can probably post that over there.

[01:26:30] I'll be back over there at some point y'all but you can also find me on Twitter at underscore hey there Benji where I love the tweets that Megan was talking about.

[01:26:38] I live and those are mainly the places where I just don't like yeah yeah and you will be at content morning for our second annual content morning. If people want to check out other things that Benji was a part of.

[01:27:27] Thank you all for having me I appreciate it. Well and well Megan you and I we're just gonna sign off right we're not doing another outdross. Yeah people know we're just we're just at this point but we're yeah. Look us up hit the show no.

[01:27:40] So in the page and do all the things. We've been very inconsistent with release schedule so subscribe it's a really good way that you can like sometimes I'm subscribed to Spotify and I like to see what I'm put out an episode.

[01:27:53] Like new episode like look at us look at us new episode that's exciting. So yeah wherever you wherever you listen to your pods hit subscribe follow along so you can be informed when we drop new stuff that's all. Thanks for hanging until next time.