102 - Phil Drysdale | The Data on Deconstruction and a Bit On Spiral Dynamics

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:30] I hate you, naturally.

[00:00:34] And I hate black people.

[00:00:36] Things are going to get worse before they get better.

[00:00:38] What is presented to me as an American does not look like me.

[00:00:44] Because you're not allowed to be a black man in corporate America.

[00:00:46] You give us a hard time for being white, being American and being in control.

[00:00:50] We live under a situation like that constantly and then you ask me whether I approve of violence.

[00:00:58] I mean that just doesn't make any sense at all.

[00:01:01] Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening right now.

[00:01:04] And you know what? We need a space where we can debrief some of it and deconstruct.

[00:01:09] If you've been looking for a POC-centered podcast that engages with intersectionality, religion, critical race theory and some hip hop culture, then you need to check out Profane Faith.

[00:01:20] I'll be your host Daniel Whitehodge and we go in every other week.

[00:01:24] So check us out wherever you find your podcast or check us out at WhitehodgePodcast.com to see what other platforms we're on.

[00:01:33] Cool? Aye. Peace.

[00:01:43] Alright.

[00:01:44] Okay, welcome to the There After Podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:53] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:02:00] In church we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.

[00:02:06] But we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:02:09] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:02:19] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith and the life thereafter.

[00:02:40] Hey, hey.

[00:02:42] Hey.

[00:02:44] Okay, here's what we haven't talked about because we didn't report last week and I do kind of want to get your take.

[00:02:50] I know you probably saw this.

[00:02:52] I did not tell you in advance what I was going to bring up but I think things are about to get a little...

[00:02:56] Getting raw reaction.

[00:02:58] Yeah, a little driscally here.

[00:03:00] It's like a weather, right?

[00:03:04] We're talking about men on poles.

[00:03:07] Men on poles? Yes.

[00:03:11] Okay, I have some questions.

[00:03:13] For folks that didn't see the chatter about it, there was a men's conference.

[00:03:20] What was it? The stronger men's conference?

[00:03:22] The stronger men's conference.

[00:03:24] Which like everything men's conference, evangelicalism, it's always all vaguely homoerotic.

[00:03:31] But this year they just took it to another level.

[00:03:36] Yeah, and okay. I need to back up a minute because I also...

[00:03:40] Did you watch the Righteous Gemstones?

[00:03:43] I did.

[00:03:44] Okay, so in the second season when they bring in like the strongman crew kind of thing,

[00:03:50] I think people thought that that was an exaggeration of something but this really existed.

[00:03:57] Like I was at camp and had this group of men come and lift trucks and pull trucks with their teeth

[00:04:04] and do all kinds of, you know, for the Lord, heavy weight lift.

[00:04:11] Did you see this happen?

[00:04:13] They were called the power team.

[00:04:15] I'm pretty sure it was what they were called is the power team.

[00:04:18] Jordan Chesley who was a guest on the first season of the pod from, I don't know, a music podcast.

[00:04:26] It was a weird outlier episode of this podcast where we interviewed a couple of buddies of mine who were hosts of a music podcast.

[00:04:32] But he talked about, he got saved at a power team like night at his church where they would like come

[00:04:38] and rip phone books in half for Jesus and like break cinder blocks with their foreheads and stuff.

[00:04:44] Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was called the power team.

[00:04:46] And if you Google like evangelism power team, power team evangelists or whatever,

[00:04:51] you'll find these dudes who are like oiled up for the Lord and just like veins out in these like tank tops.

[00:04:58] Yeah, it's a real, it's a real thing.

[00:05:03] Okay, but apparently the 2024 version of this is the now the no shade against stripping,

[00:05:11] but the pole dancing and well I don't even know.

[00:05:14] I honestly like I'm not even sure.

[00:05:16] I think they just had a performer and actually now that I'm thinking back on seeing the footage,

[00:05:21] it seemed like it was more like a Cirque du Soleil type of performance.

[00:05:25] And maybe Mark Driscoll added the stripping part of it or the pole dancing part of it.

[00:05:31] There was a pole.

[00:05:32] He like read that into it.

[00:05:33] There was a pole.

[00:05:35] There was a portion where the man did take his shirt off and do some moves where he would like hold onto the pole

[00:05:43] and go like vertical, like a flag, right?

[00:05:46] Like his body, you know what I'm saying, right?

[00:05:49] And like swing himself around like holding himself like parallel with the ground by the pole.

[00:05:58] Which is pretty fucking hard to do.

[00:06:01] Very hard to do.

[00:06:03] And I mean objectively very hot, you know, it was it did get me going.

[00:06:09] Okay, let's just be honest.

[00:06:11] It was pretty hot.

[00:06:13] And I don't know who booked this guy, but like I just imagine that anyone who does that for a living

[00:06:21] like has done some interesting things.

[00:06:24] Like I don't know that this man is like a Christian performer.

[00:06:28] Maybe he is.

[00:06:29] I want to have him on the podcast.

[00:06:30] I'm very curious about him as a person, but.

[00:06:35] My understanding was that he was, he had been a performer in or had had left his secular life to come and do this for Jesus.

[00:06:46] That's what I thought.

[00:06:47] I saw somewhere.

[00:06:48] I think it was some kind of he had left something.

[00:06:51] Maybe he was a previously a stripper or something like that.

[00:06:54] And now is coming and doing this for Jesus.

[00:06:56] But I guess my biggest question and the whole thing and if you watch the if you saw it play out Mark Driscoll's trying to call it out on stage said he had had a Jezebel spirit.

[00:07:05] And the somebody called Mark Driscoll out and shut him down.

[00:07:09] And he was that that whole thing was just kind of stopped.

[00:07:14] But my biggest question is if you're somebody that's willing to call out Mark Driscoll, if you're somebody that's like I'm not going to stand for this and that.

[00:07:25] What?

[00:07:26] Why do you have him at your conference speaking?

[00:07:30] And also like within a week Mark Driscoll is promoting his Jezebel spirit book, right?

[00:07:35] So it's like all promotional.

[00:07:37] Like in and I'm like part of me thinks maybe it was even contrived in the first place the whole thing to get it all there, you know, you never know.

[00:07:44] Like it just it's nothing out of the question here.

[00:07:48] It's quite possible that the whole thing was contrived or at least maybe not on the pastor's part because the pastor who called him out was the pastor of the host.

[00:08:00] Church putting on the event.

[00:08:02] So he was very much in charge of asking Mark to come to this event and speak.

[00:08:08] And from what I heard is he was getting like bomb threats and there was like there were there were threats coming in to him for what he said against Mark Driscoll.

[00:08:22] Apparently Driscoll fans got all hot and bothered about Mark getting kicked off stage and were apparently calling in bomb threats to this guy's church or threatening this guy's life or something.

[00:08:36] Right?

[00:08:37] So so I doubt this pastor was in on the deal, but it would not surprise me if Mark saw the lineup for the event and planned, you know, said, oh, I'm going to go to this and stage this whole thing knowing kind of what was going to happen.

[00:08:51] That that that would not surprise me in the in the least.

[00:08:57] Okay, yes.

[00:08:59] Can I just say how what is the mind fuck of these extremely conservative pro lifers being like I'm so upset with this that I'm going to threaten life on you because you kicked a pastor off the stage it kind of I mean it has the Moms for Liberty vibe it has the whole like it.

[00:09:20] Did you just see like Planet Fitness got a bunch of bomb threats because the there was a person filming in bathrooms trying to film somebody that was transgender that was in the bathroom and Planet Fitness was like you filming in the bathroom it violates our policy and cancel their membership

[00:09:38] and then they got bomb threats because they were defending the transphobia right and so these bomb these people that were giving bomb threats like can we just for a second recognize that maybe if you're upset about something like threatening with death is not the way.

[00:09:56] Yeah, well and and the interesting thing about that Planet Fitness thing is like I saw there's a trans creator I don't know her name and I wish that I did.

[00:10:05] But she is a creator on TikTok and she works at Planet Fitness and she was literally talking about how like it's a very trans friendly company and like they have been very explicit in their contract and in their policies about gender and locker rooms and you know all of these things like are clearly in the contract that you sign when you join the gym.

[00:10:30] And you know what else is in the contract not using cameras in the locker room like you signed to the contract like you signed up for this.

[00:10:39] It's very laid out. This is not some new thing that they have decided to do don't film people you are the weirdo you are and it's like person filming in there trying to like accuse someone else of being this poor woman trying to just get changed.

[00:10:57] And you're like oh look hey I caught you know somebody being she's changing you're filming her like what they regardless of what your ideas about gender or your ass backward ideas about you know gender critical ideology or whatever.

[00:11:18] This person is not bothering anyone doing anything you're harassing them objective.

[00:11:25] So you know you getting your membership revoked because you breached the contract you signed when you joined the gym and for people to call in bomb threats I mean it's not surprising to me these pro life people have never been pro life outside of the womb right like it is always been about controlling women's bodies it's

[00:11:47] never been about saving lives or because because all of their.

[00:11:55] Ideologies all of their policies once.

[00:12:00] A person is born are.

[00:12:03] The eminently like not.

[00:12:06] Conducive to life.

[00:12:08] We're helping that that human survive.

[00:12:11] Yeah it just reminds me of how backwards it was and I know we're kind of wandering I guess that's just my vibe today but how backwards it is that they co opted the my body my choice.

[00:12:23] To not wear masks.

[00:12:25] Yeah which would have protected people's lives and they're like taking the yeah it's just the whole thing I was like.

[00:12:33] Anyway I know we have an episode and interview coming up that we haven't have been sitting on for a little while because we had some you know.

[00:12:46] Responding to other things episodes come up and also our schedules have prevented us from recording every single week and putting out episodes but we're so excited about this one and I think if there's unless there's anything else will just dive right into that interview with Phil drysdale.

[00:13:01] Let's jump in Phil's been somebody who I've loved for a long time in this space and it was so great to be able to sit down with them excited to share this conversation with all of you let's get into it.

[00:13:17] Welcome back to another episode of the there after podcast we have Coralyn say hi.

[00:13:23] Hi I'm here and we have a guest here.

[00:13:25] Phil Drysdale is here and I'm super excited about it.

[00:13:30] Phil welcome to the show.

[00:13:32] It's good to be here.

[00:13:33] Thank you for having me.

[00:13:34] I'm excited.

[00:13:36] Yeah so we just want to hear somebody that has been on my radar for a really long time and I have so excited to have this conversation because we have been talking about having you on the show for a while and just to kind of kick us off if you want to give us a little window into how you ended up in the

[00:13:54] construction space or whatever the kids are calling it these days.

[00:13:59] Whatever label absolutely.

[00:14:02] So I mean I grew up in a very fundamental Christian world my parents were pastors and I did Christianity hard.

[00:14:13] Probably wasn't that intent really early on but I did Christianity really hard fast track many years few decades and I'm traveling around the world speaking in conferences ministry schools colleges different things that.

[00:14:24] Being a fundamental Christian and as that went on as many people find the more intense you are in fundamental forms of religion the more likely you are to start hitting some of the limitations of fundamentalism of black and white thinking of these kind of rigid and

[00:14:40] extreme kind of views.

[00:14:42] And so I started myself to kind of deconstruct and yet my whole world was still traveling and speaking as well I did and so found myself doing that as I was traveling my what I spoke about started to shift and change.

[00:14:55] I mostly spoke about things I believe that were still probably helpful in that world but people started picking up on that a little bit and there's an interesting dynamic where when people start to deconstruct it feels very dangerous to ask the people you love about some of the questions you have or even.

[00:15:10] The people you're supposed to trust like your pastor or your leader or something like that but the random guy that came to town that staying in your house for night while they're speaking at your church that night and you just heard them speak and you're like they're not coming back after that sermon.

[00:15:23] And also I was some sketchy stuff he said that was like really fringe I'm going to ask him all my questions.

[00:15:28] Or people come up to you after the service and they go I'm going to ask this bit busy and past or a question that I wouldn't even tell my wife I'm thinking about this because she might like leave me at such a fringe Christian concept or whatever for me to introduce or such a core value to question.

[00:15:43] And so as I'm traveling and going through this journey myself.

[00:15:47] I realize gosh there's a lot of people in that space of Christianity which was my world and people deconstruct from all sorts of different backgrounds.

[00:15:56] That don't have people to process don't have people to talk to don't have a safe space to question feel like they're completely alone when actually gosh every other person it felt like when I was going to these places was had questions and was doubts and all sorts of different stuff.

[00:16:11] And so I felt myself find a bit more safety and going well actually why am I spending all this time being another person within Christianity trying to help people be Christian when I'm got a lot of questions on what it means to be Christian at that time anyway.

[00:16:25] Why don't I help people by saying I'm a safe person to ask questions and gosh that was I even know close to 15 years ago now so I mean I've been doing this for at least a decade.

[00:16:36] Just making space for people to ask questions to explore in a non judgmental way where they are free to be to ask whatever they have.

[00:16:47] Non led I have no outcome that I'm trying to get people to I don't want people to believe what I believe I don't talk about what I believe I think it actually detracts from people figuring out for themselves.

[00:17:00] And yeah I guess I could talk more about what that looks like but broadly speaking that's why do I just make space it looks like chatting with people on Instagram and DMs it looks like doing coaching or support groups.

[00:17:11] It looks like making online community space all sorts of different things it looks like making memes having people feel seen and then have conversations around some of the concepts around that and all sorts of different stuff.

[00:17:24] I know that I know that that Megan wants to get into one of the things that we you know consumed some content that that early on when we started having conversations about having you on.

[00:17:36] We were Megan and I were both listening or watching through a podcast YouTube series you did on spiral dynamics and the way in which you explained spiral dynamics I think made a lot of things make sense for Megan and I.

[00:17:50] Before we get into that I'm curious to just touch on that element of you talking about like not talking about what you believe and creating a space within kind of the deconstruction conversation for people to just explore and ask questions and I guess I want to ask you like I find that there's actually a lot of people who come into the space and then really look for something that

[00:18:20] they need to cling to or look for building some sort of new system or new you know I don't know like there's there's a lot of that like coming out of a cult and joining a cult phenomenon that kind of like high control to high control environment pipeline that I see why is that like why is it so common that someone can come out of a

[00:18:47] seemingly high control environment and start to question everything and then end up back in some other seemingly high control group think situation.

[00:18:59] Yeah I mean that's a great question and I mean as a question for the ages and there'd be a lot of people with different theories on what that would look like we could look at something like development theory and how people psychologically grow and develop you mentioned spiral dynamics is one type of development

[00:19:13] theory that focuses around how people see value things and the way that they orientate themselves towards their ideals and their values so that can develop and grow but you can also develop and grow in your ego the way you see yourself or you can develop and grow in your morality the way you see your ethics and your moral compass and so there's lots of different developmental theories out there

[00:19:33] and they all are deeply insightful into how we go about the process of deconstruction because often deconstruction is either sparked by quite a bit of developmental change or it sparks developmental change and I think what you looking at with stuff like this is people tend not to go from fundamental to radically pluralistic right so you don't go from black and white and there's a right and there's a wrong and that's it to everything can kind of be true I mean it's all different perspectives and everyone's truth is also

[00:20:03] ultimately from their subjective existential kind of perspective like that's a very rare shift I've personally not seen that happen and if it does happen when overnight shift it probably is only because you weren't watching very closely.

[00:20:16] I guarantee that person took a long time and even when we feel it was overnight ourselves.

[00:20:22] I guarantee it wasn't overnight I guarantee bits and pieces bit by bit we're whittling away and slowly things were coming into alignment where we could start to see things differently.

[00:20:30] And so I think a bit of it is that where actually maybe you look at it a bit closer and you go as probably not quite as fundamental what they've gone into but it's still quite rigid it's quite structured it offers a lot of safety and certainty for less autonomy and freedom but there's more autonomy and freedom

[00:20:47] than the place they came from and so I think part of the time you're looking at just gradual change and that's part of the process and sometimes people need to realize that it's fundamental thinking that it's the problem it's not just Christianity it's just not just Islam you know so they maybe have a problem with fundamental Islam and then they become a Christian but they're equally fundamental

[00:21:10] or you have a problem with one type of fundamental Christianity so you're a but Southern Baptist or something and then you go into a very rigid different type of Christianity I'm not going to name another.

[00:21:21] Pick one whatever you want and maybe over time they might not even and this is an important aspect it's not about leaving religion or spirituality like maybe they become a different form of Christian that just is much less fundamental

[00:21:34] progressive kind of space or a much more open space at least generally the shift in deconstruction this kind of three markers of deconstruction the third one is that you tend to hold your new beliefs with less fundamentalism.

[00:21:46] And so you're going to see that shift away from doolistic black and white right wrong in out good bad that sort of thinking starts to really losing up the black and white becomes more gray.

[00:22:00] But if you've become very gray over time, you might look at someone at the beginning of that journey go I was never that black and white when I first came out or whatever and maybe there's a bit of selective memory in how the process was for you.

[00:22:13] Maybe you were much quicker at getting into a more gray expression or way of seeing the world.

[00:22:20] But more than likely you probably were still whittling away some of that fundamentalism and just we're doing it in that space still.

[00:22:25] And you were just very uncomfortable and maybe this person left sooner and they're trying to find something that still makes them feel comfortable and quite a fundamental way of seeing the world that would be my kind of broad strokes.

[00:22:35] If you were looking at something like spiro dynamics I'd say, they're still in that conventional space there may be only starting to tiptoe into some of the later stages and they still need safety certainty security those are the values and the

[00:22:48] things that they their psyche needs to feel comfortable.

[00:22:53] And so they come out of a space that offered them safety certainty security through an authority figure through something like that is very common at that stage for you to look at that.

[00:23:02] And so for conventional Christians it's I get that authority is the Bible is the pastor is the Pope is God and that person thing tells me this is the right way this is the wrong way do this don't do that you'll be safe you have

[00:23:16] to be in that kind of uncertainty you know you're going to go to heaven you know you're not going to go to hell.

[00:23:20] And they leave that and of course suddenly a, oh shit where's I don't feel very safe I don't feel very certain I don't feel very secure.

[00:23:27] So if they still have a drive to need that. They're gonna for them to even begin to shift out of that space they're going to need to find something that offers them that and they're going to look to an authority figure.

[00:23:36] And that is exactly why I don't tend to talk about my beliefs in my personal journey because they may well try and replicate that there's nothing wrong with people in this space talking about those things.

[00:23:46] But it's important that people recognize that's what they're doing you know they're representing a type of deconstruction they're not representing what deconstruction is and how to do this which a lot of people want.

[00:23:58] That's what they want they want a clear path and a black and white way to do it.

[00:24:02] Absolutely and then it's interesting that you present it that way because I definitely when I first came across I think it was when you were on John Stein gar's podcast.

[00:24:11] And I first came across that and I remember I was shopping at Costco and I remember like where I was when I was listening to that conversation because at the time I was definitely in that place of I need a new set of rules like I had the rules that I followed in evangelicalism.

[00:24:30] And now I feel like I'm left without a script and now I need my new script and I need my new set of rules.

[00:24:35] And so as you went through the like the overview which I would love for you to kind of give an overview for our listeners of spiral dynamics I felt like what I was looking for like this was so much better than rules because it was more of a framework that I could kind of think about and consider

[00:24:53] and again it wasn't prescriptive and and I felt more comfortable with that and I felt like OK this like and it also wasn't like a prescribed journey like you need to go through stage one stage two stage it was just kind of like a framework so if you could give that overview for our listeners that would be amazing.

[00:25:13] Sure so we'll stick with spiral dynamics but like I said there's lots of different models.

[00:25:19] So in spiral dynamics it looks at the way that how you orientate yourself as you grow and develop with your values and you'll notice that this works out in multiple different ways.

[00:25:27] It can work out an individual just growing up.

[00:25:29] You'll see some of the early stages represent a baby going into a toddler going into a young child but they also represent culture and society as it's grown and developed.

[00:25:37] And so there's a lot of different ways that this can play out and it is very helpful looking at how we orientate our world around spirituality.

[00:25:44] We can see how it shifts and changes as well.

[00:25:47] And the whole principle behind developmental theories is that generally speaking people follow a pattern of growth and so you can see this in children.

[00:25:57] You look at a child early on they have very little concept of much of anything.

[00:26:02] It's a very magical ego centric kind of way of seeing the world and we all know that when we have babies and then when they become toddlers they become kind of ego maniacs where they suddenly discover I'm a me.

[00:26:13] Oh my gosh I don't have to do what you say.

[00:26:15] I can just scream no over and over and over again and we all think that person is terrible or we think they should run the U.S.

[00:26:23] It depends.

[00:26:24] Again this doesn't just apply to toddlers.

[00:26:26] So either way.

[00:26:29] But don't go up.

[00:26:32] So you know we see these developments and then as time goes on that toddler becomes a small child and they start to realize me yelling me me me.

[00:26:40] No no no.

[00:26:41] So people don't seem to really like me that much and it doesn't always work for me.

[00:26:45] Maybe it would work more to work in this system and actually maybe mom and dad know more than me and maybe sometimes their reasons even though I don't understand it the well because I say so actually is probably good enough and actually that makes sense.

[00:26:58] I'll just do it because mom and dad say so they know better.

[00:27:00] And so there's these developments and what's interesting is you don't leave the prior developments right.

[00:27:05] The young child that started to use the body and understand and control their body doesn't stop doing that hopefully at least for a very long time.

[00:27:14] The child that's yelling no no no no and learning that they're an individual person that can assert their desires doesn't stop doing that just because they grew up and start operating better in a community as a family.

[00:27:27] They still understand now that I'm a me I can I can put forth my case and maybe they do it in a bit of a healthy way.

[00:27:32] And so these stages build on each other.

[00:27:34] They don't replace each other.

[00:27:35] I think that's a really important distinction.

[00:27:37] So all that to say we see these models in lots of different ways and spiro dynamics is about values.

[00:27:43] And so what you have early on and will probably start around what would be similar to this kind of toddler stage because we're talking about spirituality.

[00:27:51] But generally speaking, this stage would be called red spiro dynamics picks colors because titles are often very loaded.

[00:28:01] People grab onto titles and decide whether they're right or wrong.

[00:28:04] If you are going to give it a title I would give it the title maybe like power or control.

[00:28:09] And again, you think that toddler they're learning I have power I have control if I hit something if I bite someone if I say no, if I scream I might get my way and I want my way.

[00:28:21] Religion often looks like that and you think of the Crusades something like that very sort of like black and white.

[00:28:29] Power driven our way is the right way.

[00:28:31] We're going to destroy anyone that's different.

[00:28:33] That sort of idea that generally speaking doesn't work very well because other religions want to destroy you and it's probably more beneficial to work in a more harmonious way.

[00:28:42] It also doesn't work internally where you have this like harsh dictator that's screaming no, no, no, no, no in the religion because it's only so long before someone else picks up a bigger stick, bonks you on the head and becomes a new pope.

[00:28:55] Right.

[00:28:56] So it doesn't work very well to be in that kind of way of thinking.

[00:29:00] It also is very upsetting for most people at that stage, don't get to be in charge and it's actually quite scary and it's quite problematic for them to live in that kind of space in that religion.

[00:29:11] So generally speaking that evolves into a way called conventional and the color inspired dynamics is blue conventional just means it's kind of normative.

[00:29:19] It's quite comfortable.

[00:29:21] It's what we were talking about earlier.

[00:29:23] It seeks safety, certainty and security.

[00:29:25] And so it's giving up some of that drive for power so that actually it has a bit more safety, certainty and security because the mob boss might be powerful, but he's very rarely safe, certain or secure right because there's always someone else is ready to whack him.

[00:29:38] Right.

[00:29:40] That sort of mentality.

[00:29:42] It opens up a whole new world and it does open up culture to, you know, all sorts of different wonderful things and so it's a positive thing and it was very good for religion as well.

[00:29:53] It opens up a much more unified, abrasive everyone being a part of something everyone being able to take part and be involved.

[00:30:02] It also however asked people to give up a lot of that autonomy.

[00:30:06] And so autonomy we think of maybe in a slightly healthier way than being able to hit people on the head and take control or yelling at people till they do what you want.

[00:30:14] But it does require people to take up less space in the room and we think of maybe many of us grew up in that kind of conventional fundamental faith.

[00:30:22] There wasn't much autonomy.

[00:30:24] There wasn't much freedom for most people to pastor the leader, the God.

[00:30:29] They take charge.

[00:30:30] They operate in this space and so there's a desire for safety, certainty, security that gives up a lot of things and part of that even is often rational, intellectual engagement.

[00:30:44] A lot of people can be extremely smart but check that the door so that they can remain part of this community and accept what the pastor, what the leader says.

[00:30:55] Generally speaking, people start to hit a wall though.

[00:30:58] They start to realize well this is nice.

[00:31:00] I feel good having safety, certain security, but actually I'm giving up too much of me and I actually wonder what does that look like for me to exist and take up more space in this world.

[00:31:09] And actually I'm starting to think about things in new ways and I'm starting to think about things more rationally and logical.

[00:31:14] And so this opens up a door to the next stage which is orange, which often is quite an individualistic stage and it looks at like what does it look like for me to be something myself and create something for myself and be myself and think for myself.

[00:31:30] This doesn't get rid of authority but it also starts to use some logic and think about authority.

[00:31:37] A good example I might give is someone at stage blue might go into a pandemic and hear about COVID and hear about a vaccine and they would go to their pastor and go should I get a vaccine?

[00:31:49] Right, because that's the authority figure.

[00:31:51] Maybe ask someone what does God say I should get or whatever.

[00:31:55] Someone at stage orange, unless they're like a professional and very smart about these things is still going to go I don't really understand this stuff.

[00:32:02] We all understand it a lot more now right on the other side but I don't really understand this stuff.

[00:32:06] So they also are going to seek out someone to give them advice but they're going to go you know who I'm not going to go to?

[00:32:12] A pastor.

[00:32:13] Like unless like I mean like where did they get their pastor's license?

[00:32:16] A medical uni?

[00:32:17] Like a medical college?

[00:32:18] It's unlikely right?

[00:32:19] They're probably not the expert here.

[00:32:21] I'll go to an immunologist.

[00:32:22] I'll go to my general practitioner and ask if they have advice or whatever it might be.

[00:32:27] I'll look at the surgeon general's advice online or whatever it might be but they're going to look at authority in a more nuanced and careful way.

[00:32:35] So there's a lot more, there's more nuance in the way that they're approaching things.

[00:32:39] And again this isn't better or worse.

[00:32:40] It's just developing and growing and seeing the world differently.

[00:32:46] And so we can go on to further stages.

[00:32:49] The stage green goes beyond that and it starts to realize there's limitations to being very individualistic and very focused on our autonomy and growing in that way.

[00:32:56] And it starts to go well that's good and I don't want to give that up but actually maybe I could be a bit more inclusive and have more community and more,

[00:33:04] and maybe make some sacrifices with my personal life so that I can be a part of a broader community or so that maybe even people beyond myself are benefited, right?

[00:33:17] Maybe me getting all my ways harms someone in a different country.

[00:33:21] And so people at earlier stages don't think about people in other countries.

[00:33:24] They don't think about people that don't look like them.

[00:33:26] They don't think about people in the next town over or in a different denomination or church or religion.

[00:33:32] We think of our group.

[00:33:34] And so often as you go through these stages you see the world becoming a bit more inclusive.

[00:33:39] It's becoming more nuanced.

[00:33:41] It's becoming more gray.

[00:33:42] It's becoming less black and white and fundamental.

[00:33:44] You've got all these kind of shifts going on as people grow.

[00:33:48] A really good model for this actually better than Spiral Dynamics in a lot of ways would be Cook Groiter has an amazing,

[00:33:54] Suzanne Cook Groiter has a magazine piece on ego development and the way that we see ourselves as we develop and grow.

[00:33:59] It's really interesting.

[00:34:00] And so I'd recommend we just start there if they're more into reading.

[00:34:04] She's got a great 90-sort of page paper that's very accessible, that is really interesting on that as well.

[00:34:12] But yeah, there's loads of ways this can play out.

[00:34:14] We touched on it earlier when we were talking about kind of some of these things of why do people come out of fundamentalism and still kind of stay into that?

[00:34:22] Well, it's part of this process.

[00:34:23] They're maybe still very blue.

[00:34:25] They're maybe starting to see some orange develop and people very rarely are all one thing or another.

[00:34:31] I've seen people that are very orange, very rational, very logical, very driven.

[00:34:35] They're maybe scientists or doctors or something that requires an incredible amount of rational ways of engaging with the world,

[00:34:45] really rooted in science, not rooted in maybe an authority figure just telling you that's the way it is.

[00:34:50] And yet they walk into a church on Sunday, they sit down and lead their home group and they disconnect from that way of engaging with the world

[00:34:58] or they redefine it so much that it basically becomes blue again.

[00:35:03] And so people have these things in very different areas of their life.

[00:35:07] I've seen people that can be quite developed in some ways and then maybe because of some trauma in their early years,

[00:35:14] that's the way they engage relationally is quite stunted.

[00:35:18] Or maybe they sexually engage at very early ways because they had prior experiences in the past that weren't healthy for them

[00:35:27] or whatever and it's caused them to kind of hunker down at earlier stages.

[00:35:31] And so there's all sorts of complexity here.

[00:35:33] And so we're doing a very broad strokes to a very complex world of the human psyche and how we grow and develop in that.

[00:35:42] Yeah, I mean, I guess it's probably better for me to stop rambling and you can kind of pick what you want and what seems relevant or not from that.

[00:35:49] And there's stages beyond that as well.

[00:35:52] And we could go into that, but it might not be as relevant to this kind of process and what's going on for many people at this stage.

[00:36:00] So one thing that I'm curious about and Megan, feel free to push this in a different direction too.

[00:36:06] But like one of the conversations that I'm seeing happen a lot at this current moment in specifically the vein of deconstruction

[00:36:16] that I tend to float in and out of, which is obviously Christianity.

[00:36:20] And you mentioned before people can be coming out of and we've had people on the show coming out of traditional fundamentalist Judaism

[00:36:30] or Mormonism or other sects.

[00:36:33] But there is this apologetics movement that is learned about deconstruction and are now creating counter deconstruction arguments.

[00:36:45] And you know, Alisa I believe, and I always mispronounce her name and I apologize, Childers Childers.

[00:36:57] And you know, there's a couple other I think that her and somebody else just wrote a book called The Deconstruction of Christianity or something like that.

[00:37:06] And framing this idea of deconstruction in this very particular way and creating an apologetic and a counter apologetic essentially to that.

[00:37:19] I'd love to hear your thoughts on like what, you know, what that is, what's happening there.

[00:37:27] And yeah, I won't even go any further just like what's happening there and how you think about it and respond to it.

[00:37:34] I was interviewed for that book. So I think their publisher told them you have to actually get some data.

[00:37:39] So one of the things I do on the side is research. So I do research and deconstruction.

[00:37:42] I've got a lot of research, a lot of data available. And I think they were like, oh crap, if we have to get some data on this, we probably to research it.

[00:37:48] So they actually, well, at least talked to me for a little bit for an hour or so.

[00:37:53] From what I understand, none of what I gave her made it to the book.

[00:37:56] And I think that says all where I think certain people are at a stage where they realize this is the conversation and this is the type of conversation that's happening.

[00:38:06] They mimic the type of conversation that they can't engage at that level.

[00:38:11] And that's not to throw shit all over any of these people. I mean, that's the way they're seeing it and the way they choose to represent it.

[00:38:17] But I gave them really good data on well, deconstruction doesn't mean that it means this or this is a definition of deconstruction from a research background of like what we've observed in 97 plus percent of population.

[00:38:32] And you can see that this is what deconstruction looks like it means. I don't like it.

[00:38:36] So what do they do? And share what works for them, what they're doing.

[00:38:40] And you see this in apologetics, right? Go watch an atheist and a Christian argue and you just say, oh Jesus Christ, it's painful.

[00:38:45] I mean, it's painful on both sides a lot of the time, but it's especially painful sometimes when you're watching, I don't know, someone trying to explain why there's kangaroos in Australia after the flood.

[00:38:56] Or you know, I mean, you just like, well, you think you're having this very scientific conversation right now, but you're using Bible verses and that's just not really coming across the way you think it is.

[00:39:05] And so I think sometimes it's just people are trying to engage with people in a way that they think is going to be helpful.

[00:39:15] And it's not. And again, it's really difficult when we talk about things like developmental theory not to sound like we're putting down people at an earlier stage.

[00:39:28] And it's really difficult to do that. It's really difficult to talk about your child and something funny they did because of their developmental stage right now.

[00:39:37] Most of us can appreciate, well, yeah, of course they're at that stage. It's fine. But even that it's like, wow, they're at that stage is that because it's worse than us or in fear in some way?

[00:39:45] And I would say no, like a seven year old doesn't fear to me. They're just at a very different stage. I was there and I go through that and I went through that and I hold on to most of that.

[00:39:54] But I would akin it to that really in a lot of ways, which sounds really awful. I feel bad saying it, but it's a lot like when your 10 year old tries to mimic something they're hearing adults talk about and you watch it and you go,

[00:40:06] that sounds similar, but my God is that like kind of really funny because they don't really know what they're talking about. They're trying to mimic something they've heard or something that.

[00:40:15] I feel bad. I feel a little bit bad there because yeah, but I mean, I've been sent snippets from a few people that I'm not going to read that kind of time to read it, but I've sent some people from people have had they defined certain things and I'm like,

[00:40:28] I told them the exact opposite to that. And I gave them links and I gave them the data and I told them they have free access to the actual cold hard data all the data that we do is the actual data is available.

[00:40:40] I guess they don't care. They don't think they care. They want to it's a it's a difference of this is what you see apologetics, the atheists and the Christian aren't there to have a conversation or to learn, neither,

[00:40:51] neither wants to learn. They're there to listen so they can find a hole so they could then attack it to present their argument and I think that way of engaging is so uninteresting to me.

[00:41:04] It's very hard for me to remember when that was interesting. It probably was at some point.

[00:41:09] But I think that's that's the way I think if we remember ourselves as Christians, that's how we went if we are on the street and talk to people right. We pretended we were open to hearing about them and their beliefs.

[00:41:20] So can I ask you a question about what you believe about God or whatever.

[00:41:23] What you believe about God mate? I want you to believe what I believe and I'm just going to listen to whatever you say so I've got the right opening and going, there we go.

[00:41:29] I can get in there and that's it. I mean, that's what the book is right? It's it's how do I find deconstruction and find holes that I can then go but this is what really is the case and this is where they're wrong and this is where they're wrong.

[00:41:42] And I don't even know what they're arguing because deconstruction isn't a thing really broadly apart from three vague categories markers which only of all three are present really is someone deconstructing even with a couple of them present.

[00:41:57] They're not necessarily deconstructing. I don't know what the fuck they think deconstruction is right because it's not something it's it's not about what people believe it's about an orientation away from something.

[00:42:11] It's not about an orientation towards something or even where they are presently it's about a departure from fundamentalism.

[00:42:18] So what are you arguing about? You can argue with atheists that's not deconstruction is deconstruction but it's not deconstruction.

[00:42:26] So what are we doing here? Right, you can argue about progressive Christians. Yeah, some of those have deconstructed but that's not deconstruction only 30 20 to 30% depending on a whole bunch of variables end up still remaining Christian which is a very large percentage but it's not deconstruction.

[00:42:44] So I have a problem with anyone that decides to try and start a fight about this is deconstruction or that's not deconstruction like you're kind of like I don't know you're hurting cats like what are you trying to do here?

[00:42:57] I don't know. Yeah, there's a couple things that made me think of because I think one sometimes I'll get people that will send me a DM and be like hey I just started deconstructing what books should I read and I'm like, you know that I have a lot of questions that I would need to ask you.

[00:43:13] Before I would ever be able to recommend a book because there's so many different definitions of deconstruction. There's so many different journeys. There's so many things that people are unraveling and so it's like you can't just kind of put together a book list.

[00:43:28] It really depends on what brought you into that space but then I think that the other pieces there's like this. I'm like I started to lose my train of thought here. I had two things and that was one of them.

[00:43:46] Oh, I know as you were talking about the frustration or trying to hold space for like people at every stage of the journey. I think there's frustration because then I think as people do get to a different space.

[00:44:03] There's so little patience for this, you know the other place and so suddenly you know you might be like okay I'm trying to understand queerphobia and I think that's bad and now I'm queeraffirming and like actually now I'm queer.

[00:44:17] And you've gone through this and everybody looks different but then you see someone and you're like you chose to use that word. How dare you? You're not using the language right? You're doing this wrong.

[00:44:32] And there's people that are like hey can we have a journey? Are we allowed to have that? You know and so as someone who said like I like to hold space for people. Like how do you navigate that dynamic of like you know like people that are like I cannot talk to anyone in my life that isn't in this particular space.

[00:44:53] But yeah you know there's mental health and boundaries when it comes to you know who's quote unquote safe or you know so I think that those are just some thoughts as you were talking that I was thinking of and you can feel free to take any of those in any direction that you want.

[00:45:06] Yeah, no I mean the second point is probably where I want to focus but the first point I would just say the question is not you know what do I read or what do I read.

[00:45:13] The question just immediately reflects it back as you say and say what are you deconstructing. Because when you step in the space I'm deconstructing Christianity. Most people are desperately cling to the Christianity right? What they're doing is they're going I'm not sure about this thing called hell or my kid just came out as gay and I really want to start looking at that because I can't let go of my kid but I can't let go of my faith and

[00:45:33] There are options and it's like oh cool read some books on queer affirming theology or you know whatever right and so it's what are you deconstructing because deconstruction isn't about throwing everything out it's about questioning core components of what you believe in your faith tradition not being able to really provide an answer

[00:45:50] and so you start to expand within your faith tradition or beyond to try and find answers to that. But the second point I think is I mean it's bread and butter for life right? I mean I can imagine every person in this

[00:46:05] Listen to this podcast is thinking of family members different people that are at different stages and they go how do I engage with that and maybe they don't want to engage about and maybe they shouldn't engage with that. We talk about mental health and things that are very important boundaries these sort of things are really important to set and so

[00:46:21] That is a big immediate disclaimer across the top of like don't take what I say here for how some of these conversations could go to be I should go and have those conversations because frankly most of the time even when you do good job they're going to go badly like communication across these barriers and these stages often go very poorly.

[00:46:41] Even with everything kind of at play.

[00:46:46] I think it's easy to see again if we look at children right you look at five year olds right and they're happy being a five year old and they're playing away and whatever, and then they become a six seven year old and they look at their younger sibling that's five and they go oh I don't want to know I was never like that or I don't like that in fact there's a great study on this they did a study on small children I think they were about two and then they

[00:47:10] went back and did the study when they were about four but at two years old they got a tall thin glass and a short fat glass and they filled the tall thin glass with water and they poured into the short fat glass and they asked the child which one had more water and at two they always pick the tall thin glass they always go that has more water and they literally

[00:47:30] watched the same water go back and forth and they still pick the tall thin glass every time which is yeah whatever right it's like the kid that wants the biggest coin not the one that's worth most right it's just the way you think they then at four asked the kid which one had most

[00:47:44] water the same kids and they all said well it's the same amount of water so there's been development there right they've grown they've changed then they showed them a video of themselves at two same the tall glass had water every single child said that's not me and refused they adamantly

[00:47:59] like no that's not me and they're like oh look it's you look I can show you another video if you're wearing that clothes that outfit or here see you say your name at the beginning. Nope that's not me it's not me they could not engage with the fact that at a prior stage they believe differently than they believe now and I think there's an element there you're talking about right

[00:48:17] you've gone through this journey where you've gone through such a radical shift it's really hard to remember as a queer person what it was like to be queerphobic I'd wager if you were in a fundamental Christian space on some level you were going to be quite queerphobic in some ways and potentially in very harmful ways if not just to yourself right

[00:48:40] and so it's very hard for us to do this and therefore if and I think a part of this is actually it's it's projection of rejection of herself right we don't like accepting those that are a prior stage because we were at prior stage and it reminds us of who we were and so actually our family that are a bit fill in the blank racist homophobic you know whatever

[00:49:03] or maybe you just think they're a bit dumb because they believe in this thing that you don't really believe anymore and it was just really dumb to believe in that I don't believe that and the same way that a kid might think it was done to believe in an imaginary friends but they do now right there's obviously some interesting coral he's there if you're an atheist or something you might see yourself as having believed in an imaginary friends and that's not comfortable right so comfortable thinking about oh I gave like gosh 30 hours a week of my life to like something I don't believe exists anymore or something I

[00:49:33] don't believe radically differently it's a very hard thing and so I think there's an element of projection error we're rejecting our own path and I think a big part of it is about integrating our own story and so I think part of this journey is actually sitting down and going how was I queerphobic how was I homophobic how was I racist how was I fill in the blank whatever it might be I mean these are big things but there's little things here and there as well how was I just a poor friend that person in college because I kept trying to get out of this

[00:50:03] and trying to get them to come to church or what was that and where was that and what's in there that taught me to be a better person some of it it wasn't all bad right so some of the stuff we learned in church was a good thing maybe you learn to be a good public speaker because you spoke in church sometimes at home group or you know there's little things here and there that you can go actually do some healthy stuff here and I want to bring that forward and the same way that a two year old wants to bring forward some autonomy but they don't want to bring forward screaming you know inviting people hopefully

[00:50:30] we're trying to pull apart some of that and as I think we integrate our own self and our journey through some of these stages we start to have compassion and see people as just someone on a journey just like we were and actually they might not grow beyond where they are and that's okay it's okay

[00:50:49] it's not what I would like and I really am not happy about them being racist or something and maybe we can work on that we can work on that at that stage that's a conversation of okay do we need to change how they think to change some of their values I don't know if we necessarily always do I think we might have to change our language because they're not going to come to our stage

[00:51:09] and the thing with the stages as well if you think it's hard accepting who you were imagine accepting something you don't think you're ever going to be and you think is wrong right because when you're at that stage of conventional faith you're at the last stage there's no stage beyond being a fundamental Christian fundamental Christians have arrived they are right they're done we're all good here I don't need any input thank you very much right no thank you so they look at someone that's gone

[00:51:39] beyond and they immediately think they're behind and you see this over and over again see it so much as pastors go oh no I know about deconstruction I for a couple years when I was 17 I drank and I did some stuff when I was 17 year old so I know all about deconstruction and they see your complex nuanced expressive

[00:52:02] come like you know incredibly painful certainly not by choice journey as something they did on a whim as a teenager because they were wanting to experiment and because they can't see that there's something beyond where they are they can't see that you were where they are and I think

[00:52:17] there's a problem there as well you'll see people your family members start to try and reject your story and they start to try and

[00:52:24] alienate who you were as not like them because if you were like them then maybe there is something after and I don't like that because I want to be right here where I am right now so now I need to change you so you were never where I am now you're somehow back behind me

[00:52:40] so it's really complex having a conversation trying to pull people forward in growth you don't you can't do that right a teacher doesn't

[00:52:49] get a seven year old to understand advanced mathematics by sitting down and teaching them university level math they teach them the math that they seven year old needs to learn

[00:52:58] and when they get to understanding all the stuff that a seven year old needs to learn at math they'll progress naturally and go hey give me some eight year old stuff I want to learn more if they like math

[00:53:09] I don't know maybe they need a bit of encouragement so I think it's a bit of that as well where there's got to be a different way of thinking where we go hmm my mom she requires safety,

[00:53:18] certainly security I'm really into this rational stuff and I'm really into logic and I'm really into it making sense that's not her gig it's a bonus and it makes sense to her she makes it make sense but her gig is how do I feel safe, certain and secure so how do I have this conversation differently where I value that drive that need

[00:53:37] is there a way to do that how do I have a conversation about racism or homophobia where I recognize that your ultimate authority is the Bible can we do that.

[00:53:46] I think that's very possible I think there's many progressive theologians are doing that where they respect the Bible again a lot of Christians would argue how much they respect the Bible, but there's ways to start people tiptoeing in that.

[00:54:00] In fact my spiral dynamics series that I put on YouTube is 1517 hours whatever was all through the lens of Christianity for Christians that are growing developing and what could their Christianity look like as they grow because most Christians engaging with that at the beginning don't want to even think that the Christianity could be that different so you're so I was giving them a platform of how can you grow how can you develop without losing the things that make you feel safe certain and secure.

[00:54:27] If you're already an atheist or agnostic or you're not that engaged in Christianity is much better spiral dynamics material than the one that I put out on YouTube so does that answer the question.

[00:54:38] It does and I want to correct something I said earlier because I said there wasn't a progression and there is a progression, but I think that what made me feel so what resonated with me at that time was I was very newly a progressive Christian and at the time.

[00:54:56] I would see people say like oh I went through a phase of progressive Christianity you know and I would feel like my journey wasn't valid or where I was wasn't valid and so the way that you phrased those different colors I was like okay well you know each piece of that is valid wherever you know and so I think that that's what it was that I think was so critical and that's that's more of a comment.

[00:55:20] I'll jump to Cortling because I know you have some things you want wherever you want to go to.

[00:55:27] No I think that there's I mean for sure there is like a progression but I also think that it isn't necessarily linear and it is you know it isn't necessarily dualistic right so there is this my question I think would be that how do we navigate.

[00:55:50] Community or caring for cultivating community with a mindset of nonlinear non dual you know.

[00:56:01] You know awareness of people's movement between these different perspectives and I think especially separating out and realizing like that for different people we cannot like for different people it's going to be very different right like like the more I started to realize about like my orientation

[00:56:30] I was like I can kind of choose my orientation and I used to be like oh no you can't choose like that was a core argument of my affirming theology and then as I became like more aware of like my attraction and my bisexuality.

[00:56:44] I was like I can kind of choose to be straight or choose to be gay if I wanted and then people you can't say that like if you say that then that makes their argument you know it's like well I'm different and that's really dynamic there's a lot of different aspects you know gender we start talking about gender

[00:57:00] and people are like oh yeah I'm you know fluid and my gender is you know changing people that are maybe transition to a binary.

[00:57:11] Gender in their trans journey and then end up going like no I'm actually on this non binary you know section and then it's like oh well you can't say that you can't say that you do transition from a binary gender because then you're going to give the right wing talking points and we have to.

[00:57:25] Fit into this aligned idea of.

[00:57:30] What we need to be so that we can defend ourselves yeah I think is the biggest thing and and I think that there's a lot of merit to that people come into community spaces and there are those aspects of self protection like looking to mitigate harm and then people trying to.

[00:57:54] Cultivate community go like I don't know how to.

[00:57:57] I don't know this is just got really messy and and I've seen these communities sometimes implode or fall apart because they don't have this really rigid pope.

[00:58:07] Make a rule and decide who's in and who's out yeah I mean community is a very complex thing there's an interesting currently there to your your.

[00:58:18] Your evolving concept of what it means to be a gender sexuality different things like that in that there's an element in deconstruction people really struggle with that where there's a perception upon them deconstructing now from all these people in a.

[00:58:33] Conventional space and a fundamental place and they've got all these stories of you just did this so you can sin or you just did this for that or you're doing this for this or that.

[00:58:42] And then you live your whole deconstruction life going how is this perceived by the people that are judging my deconstruction and I need to I'm representing this or I want it to be valid and your validity in in your own skin is still dictated externally rather than internally.

[00:59:00] Right your locus of evaluation is still well what do these people say my parents my friends my church my ex pastor whatever it might be.

[00:59:09] And so it's really fascinating how much this plague these core conditions of an encore components of just what it means to be human go right through all everything we're doing this whole game constantly.

[00:59:23] But as far as community I mean it's a really complex thing you know and we talk about fundamentalism you're really talking so the stage after green we touched on green and we stopped the stage after green is yellow and that's the first stage where fundamentalism starts to really.

[00:59:37] Drift away properly and so actually we're talking about all these stages that come after blue after conventional thinking we've got orange and green and these amazing changes in growth and things that are current for us in self discovery and beginning to operate better and and be more inclusive in our community.

[00:59:53] And yet they're still quite binary in their thought and you see this consistently you see this with right left talking points you see this with whatever it might be pick a group of people that you think are progressive and you think are more conventional.

[01:00:07] And you'll see that both bicker and fight and exclude and and you know you talked earlier about like is there space for a journey is there space for a journey and I think one part of this is that question.

[01:00:21] Is there space for journey and I think a lot of people if they can articulate that and say hey.

[01:00:27] I probably am.

[01:00:28] I mean I'll put my hand up here.

[01:00:30] I've not properly decolonized fully I've not figured out what that looks like for me entirely I've been on that journey for a while and working on that.

[01:00:39] But I don't know what that looks like to do to operate well in that perfectly.

[01:00:45] And I think me saying that as an introductory and then going there's a really high chance I'm going to fuck up here somewhere.

[01:00:55] My black indigenous people color friends are going to be way more open to me having a journey and making mistakes because they know and I am at least trying to be on a journey.

[01:01:08] That's a very different conversation than your Uncle Terry it Thanksgiving it goes well I don't give a fuck about dick.

[01:01:16] What are you even talking about just so stupid so you know like and it's just some more racist stuff and you're like yeah there's there's no journey here there's no intent on a journey so you're immediately polarizing and going to have that fight that's going to be fundamental you're

[01:01:29] fundamental I'm right bash bash bash.

[01:01:33] But when someone comes to take me was look I'm coming from this fundamental place where I thought it was right and I'm and I know I'm now that was wrong.

[01:01:41] And I want to be where you are I don't understand it I'm not sure how to get there there's probably a lot of steps and honestly I'm going to probably fight it at times as well because it really hurts and it's painful.

[01:01:49] And I appreciate if you give me space and a bit of compassion as I do it and I know it's not your job to manage my life and do it for me that certainly not anyone else's job but yeah is there space for that.

[01:02:02] I think a lot of people as they've developed and grown are going to look at that and go I went on that journey to yeah there's space for that.

[01:02:09] And so I think a big part of it is recognizing growth and journey and that's a big part of stage yellow is it starts to see life as developmental and as stages and as progression and it starts to recognize that actually I am all those stages too.

[01:02:26] And actually when I talk to someone at Stage Blue there's no point in being yellow there's no point in being green there's no point in being orange why don't I go and just be blue with them why don't I go talk about what feels safe certain and secure to them.

[01:02:38] And so again I'm doing all the stuff that they value but I'm bringing my healthy later stages where I've let go of colonization I've let go of racism I let go of homophobia I've let go of toxic views of God's abusive views of God.

[01:02:53] So I can sit with you and talk about the Bible and maybe create some space for that to shift some of your views.

[01:02:59] Now that is some like hardcore radical ways of engaging with the world that I don't know about you.

[01:03:05] I'm like God I haven't even know how to even talk to Uncle Terry right I have no like I just want to punch the guy like I just want to shut up before things given so it's not easy but I think as we grow and develop we start to understand a little bit more and have more space for that.

[01:03:18] It's my wife's a teacher. I have no flip and clue how I teach a six year old about numbers because I'm just like was easy.

[01:03:27] I don't like it's not that hard but they don't even know what a number is you know six year olds probably do but they're barely actually fundamentally they're just parroting at that stage and they just know this plus this is this they're not really engaging with some of the concepts of actually engaging with what does it mean to count what does it mean for progression in numbers and representation.

[01:03:44] So her having a teaching degree allows her to step into that stage and meet them there.

[01:03:50] And she's bringing a whole world where she goes well of course this isn't actually how it works or of course this isn't the end game here but I'll teach you the basics and I'll be where you are.

[01:04:00] I think it requires some of that for us to really start to see a healthy thriving community.

[01:04:06] Now in saying that I think broadly speaking as we develop and we grow community still needs to be generally speaking with people that are in the same sort of stages that we are if it's going to function for a while a long while.

[01:04:20] I don't think much of society or anywhere near stage 11 stage 11 yellow is what I meant to say I don't know what my brain did there.

[01:04:28] This one goes to 11 create my own member system that's way too hierarchical.

[01:04:33] But I generally speaking I think they estimate maybe sort of 10 11% of the US I know you guys are over on that side of the world.

[01:04:43] The US population or maybe 10 10 to 15% maybe that's very generous at sort of stage yellow.

[01:04:50] So the odds of us having this utopian kind of space where people all sort of stages really operate well and not exist in that space is not likely to happen.

[01:04:59] People that are stage green are going to want to hang out with people that are stage green.

[01:05:02] They're going to want to do their abrasive inclusive progressive stuff like they're going to want to do that with other people that are in that space and that's OK.

[01:05:10] And it's probably really beneficial for you if you're at that stage that you don't have Uncle Terry come and hang out right because you know shit on your parade right send him back to be at home and watch Fox News and yell racist things at the TV.

[01:05:24] That sounds like a better place for Uncle Terry honestly.

[01:05:27] And I think that it's OK for those communities and those environments to be transitional and seasonal.

[01:05:35] I think is another thing that just goes against a lot of like the eternal mindset of like you know your church family is forever.

[01:05:43] Your platonic family marriages forever all those eternal language that went around the structures of community that I grew up in.

[01:05:50] And now I'm like right out of leaving Christianity for me it was the Bernie Sanders campaign and I was like yeah I need another grumpy Jewish socialist to follow.

[01:05:59] Let me let me just go with Bernie instead of Jesus for a second.

[01:06:03] And then that was a phase for a minute right.

[01:06:05] And then it was you know Dirty Rotten Church Kids was a huge community for me for like a couple years where I met incredible people and you know listening to Adrian and that series that you know and say like I'm excited to like not be the Jesus guy forever.

[01:06:20] I'm going to be like for a minute and figure out who the fuck I am go on to something else.

[01:06:24] And it just goes against I think a lot of the ways in which we saw community as being this thing that needed to last forever or it was like meaning this.

[01:06:33] Yeah yeah right.

[01:06:35] And this is so I created them so I constantly had people coming to me and going I completely alone you have no idea I'm in fill in the blank right.

[01:06:43] Nine times out of ten is a southern state because apparently everyone that's deconstructing is in the south but they're especially alone because it's a very religious place.

[01:06:51] I've seen the largest drops in evangelicals in the last 10 years but it's funny people are messing with me and say you've no idea what it's like I'm in someplace in Georgia and it's like I'm completely alone everyone's so religious and I'm the only human

[01:07:05] people that's deconstructing on earth it feels like and I'm like my DMs just this week I've talked to like 10 people from like just your city like never mind all of Georgia or never mind you.

[01:07:16] There's something here like and and the truth is if you look at the data I mean the amount of people walking and so this isn't deconstructing this is just leaving Christianity leaving Christianity there's more than a million people every year in the US averaged out over the last 20 years.

[01:07:31] And some years that's as high as three million people that's like that's a 1% of the US population in one year gone and I'm not Christian anymore and also that's one percent of the US population that's way higher than 1% of the actual Christian population that's like 23% of the Christian population going in one year.

[01:07:47] Not Christian staggering amounts of people and I say to people that if you got embodied your inner Jehovah witness right might trigger you a bit you went out your door you turned left knocked on a door and said hey I'm questioning all sorts of stuff about my faith I'm no idea what I believe.

[01:08:02] You know anything about that they might say no alright keep knocking I don't think you get more than 10 doors without hitting someone that's going through something like this honestly I really don't but the problem is if I'm Baptist and I start questioning that and I become a bit more charismatic right what do I do.

[01:08:16] I open up Google and I type in charismatic churches in I don't know Austin Texas and I'm gonna find all the charismatic church so I'm gonna start church hoppin and go now yeah this one works for me and I'm finding people that are like me.

[01:08:27] If I start questioning my faith what the fuck do I type into Google to find people genuine question especially if I don't know what I am right it's different from my oh I've become humanistic and atheists okay well there's humanistic atheists churches all over the world maybe you type in that and that's something or go meet up.

[01:08:46] Common you might find some sort of atheist society or something like that or maybe you come Satanist or maybe you come agnostic or maybe you come whatever but just something to search but if you're just generally like I don't know I know what I am maybe I'm so Christian I really don't know.

[01:08:59] What do you type into Google is such a complex thing and yet your whole world is this is how I get my entire community my safety my security my social structure is built around what do I believe.

[01:09:11] So I'm going to replicate that but what do I believe and who believes like me and so anyway so in time I created this space online deconstruction network calm completely free you sign up you can put in a pseudonym or your real name or whatever you want.

[01:09:25] And then you just put in your city your state country and it just puts a dot on the map and then people can search show me 50 mile radius of Austin Texas and then hundred dots show up and it's like holy crap you start clicking on it you can message people totally safe and I don't know what I am saying.

[01:09:41] You can do what you want with the message you can meet up someone coffee you can just chat with them whatever it looks like.

[01:09:47] Don't get me wrong if you meet up with someone they might chop you up into little bits and hide your nose I don't know I can't be charged that I'd wager probably not legal display that's in the small print they might chop you up into little bits probably not right but who knows you know it's the internet same same advice you give your seven year old don't meet people on the internet you don't know and don't trust zoom them at least first or something but anyway the point being you find these hundred dots and you know you can just chat with them whatever it looks like.

[01:10:08] But anyway the point being you find these hundred dots and you know I had someone right at the beginning they messaged me and I'm in LA and like I can't find anyone wants to meet up and do stuff and like you know I'm not sure.

[01:10:19] I'm like it's early days but it's like 30 people in LA and they're like yeah I messaged every single one of them but none of them wants to do what I want to do and like connect and I'm like okay so what is that and they're like oh I want to get together every week and have like a worship night at my house and I'm like.

[01:10:34] Okay like and I'm like yeah okay sure but I might but I can also see a lot of people don't want to have a worship night at some guys house like that's probably one of the bigger things that they're constructing or something right I don't know like a lot of people are half the people deconstructing our worship leaders right and go out and do this anymore so.

[01:10:51] So it really highlighted a point for me that I knew but I hadn't really conceptualized in that people are still trying to gather around what they believe and how they practice spirituality.

[01:11:02] But deconstruction looks like a whole mess of things even if you're in that 20 to 30% remain Christian that looks very different to a lot of people.

[01:11:12] But a whole bunch of people are agnostic whole bunch of people are spiritual not religious some people go into sort of pagan kind of concept some people go into other traditional faiths other people.

[01:11:20] Believe atheism or expressions of atheism like Satanism or things like that like.

[01:11:26] I don't know does the does the atheists want to go along to worship night probably not yeah so that rules that guy out but would you and the atheists really bond and be able to talk about how it was for you when you started questioning and you know with that person be able to help you in process and might even be able to help you in process and.

[01:11:41] In a place where they're not going to try and make you an atheist but they're just gonna make space for you to have a conversation hopefully yeah I think most people would be semi able to do that early on.

[01:11:50] And that could be really healing and helpful and so community I think the big challenge early on is a shifting away from we gather around what we believe.

[01:12:00] And we gather around how we practice what we believe to we gather around being human and we gather around a shared.

[01:12:08] Origin rather than a shared trajectory or shared current location so we we know what it's like to grow up fundamental and come out of that.

[01:12:18] We've that's what we have in common where we go that's okay we'll figure it out and it's okay for a different it's okay if we you're down a line go we're so different let's just call it a day is okay like you said it's these things don't have to be permanent.

[01:12:31] When when you're when your whole fundamental outlook is this is it we've arrived there's no out there's no change this is it just me this God it's this for eternity right literally like there's no room for people to diverge right.

[01:12:44] Yeah it's a really complex thing it's a complex thing and you look at a community like dirt and rock church has had amazing patron wonderful space but you'll find that ebbs and flows like people come in and it's life.

[01:12:57] It's oh my God finally space to talk and share and connect and people are just like me and it's so good and then eventually some people don't move on and it's still great for them and that's where they are and it's just really helpful.

[01:13:09] A lot of people go yeah I have this on my discord server and my patreon is like I'm like thank God certain parts of my discord or entirely my discord is a graveyard for a few months and I'm like well not much going on and and I check in with people have people doing like yeah I'm actually doing really well that's why it's a great.

[01:13:25] It's a great.

[01:13:27] They don't need this space to talk about where they've come from there enjoying where they are and they're moving forward and part of that is they have friendships online separate to the score that they've made in that space and outside of that space and not another part is they're just doing other things and.

[01:13:42] But I think is a totally different way of engaging with the world, but it's very difficult early on because our whole operation is a type and Google.

[01:13:51] You know and I meet up with people that believe like me and that's not really viable when you're going and I've no fucking clue what I believe.

[01:14:00] Yeah, I think a deep instruction church would be like I'm sure a bunch of people have tried them and started them and they've done well and I bet you they go to shit very quick because people move beyond it.

[01:14:09] Or they fight because they've come to different conclusions.

[01:14:14] Yep.

[01:14:16] It's so funny yeah and we're actually doing an event in a couple weeks here that are pulling together some people in the Portland area but and looking at kind of doing some in different regions because we want to do one in Atlanta to just because it is an area where lots of people and are looking for that community so.

[01:14:36] Yeah, by the time there's errors it will have happened and it will have been a huge success.

[01:14:41] Yeah, that's true.

[01:14:43] Yeah well but I we're kind of getting to time here but this I feel like we could talk for hours and just you know hear more of your brain and and all of that but unfortunately we're out of time but I would love for you.

[01:14:58] You mentioned a couple places you mentioned Patreon you mentioned your website where can people find you and support your work and really see more of what you're all about.

[01:15:09] I know you have some killer memes too on Instagram.

[01:15:12] So Instagram is the best place to connect with me.

[01:15:15] I'm remarkably busy these days so I'm studying to become a therapist.

[01:15:19] We just had a baby like there's lots of stuff we just moved like three times in the last year.

[01:15:23] So like there's a lot going on.

[01:15:25] But if you're going to get some sort of conversation with me I'm on Instagram regularly.

[01:15:30] I love to chat with people in the end if they need to process stuff.

[01:15:33] If you need something a bit more intentional, I do have once one kind of conversations with people and I have sort of support group space and then we also have a discord online.

[01:15:46] There's a Patreon there for that.

[01:15:49] It's like a dollar or something.

[01:15:51] It's the cheapest Patreon there is.

[01:15:53] It's just there to stop like a pastor joining or something and trying to evangelize everyone more than anything else.

[01:15:58] But yeah, you can join that if you can't afford a dollar a month please contact me and I'll let you in for free.

[01:16:04] But yeah, that's probably the best place to start is Instagram.

[01:16:09] So it's just my name Phil Drystill.

[01:16:11] I'm sure it'll be on the show notes and whatever.

[01:16:12] And my website Phil Drystill dot com.

[01:16:15] If you want to do more kind of working with me and then the deconstruction network dot com.

[01:16:21] We didn't talk about any of the research that I do, but that's a good space for connecting with people as I mentioned, but it's also where a lot of our research is posted.

[01:16:28] And I'm also really behind on that because my head is barely above water most days.

[01:16:32] So I've not really been focusing on that as much.

[01:16:34] There's a lot of research we've yet to publish that's largely done.

[01:16:37] It just needs to be kind of mostly typed up and put online.

[01:16:40] But that's where to find research and stuff as well.

[01:16:43] And so if people are looking into things and want data and things like that, I am a world of numbers and facts and figures.

[01:16:50] I love that stuff.

[01:16:52] So yeah, by all means reach out and I can potentially provide data and stuff.

[01:16:57] Yeah.

[01:16:59] Cool. Yeah.

[01:17:01] Yeah. Thank you so much for making the time and yeah as somebody who I've been following for, you know, like you said, like feels like maybe a decade.

[01:17:09] It's been a long time.

[01:17:12] It's really great to be able to sit down and spend the time with you and looking forward to having others connect with you through this interview.

[01:17:20] Thanks for having me guys. I really enjoyed it.

[01:17:22] Thank you.

[01:17:28] You know what I love about Phil is his accent.

[01:17:31] I feel like he has, yeah, there's a lot that I love about Phil.

[01:17:35] But he has the researcher in him and he presents the data and the research in a very specific way.

[01:17:44] And the thing is, like, I feel like you and I and a lot of people even on Twitter or Instagram have a lot of conversations about this kind of deconstruction influencer culture that's happening.

[01:17:54] But Phil has been around for a really long time and he lives and breathes this stuff.

[01:18:01] He's not just somebody that woke up yesterday and was like, you know, I think I'm going to like kind of, you know, make something happen in this world.

[01:18:09] He's somebody that's really been a solid force in this and just kind of watching things happen and been supportive and somebody you can reach out to in DM and he's right there.

[01:18:20] And he's like, yeah, I'd love to help you find community, you know.

[01:18:24] Yeah.

[01:18:25] Yeah, I mean, I think the people who come from that like research background, you know, similar to people who come from a more journalistic background, right?

[01:18:36] Like, you know, Sarah who wrote The X-Fangirlicals and I even think about like Blake and like Blake's like always kind of approached his X-Fangirlical podcast from a very journalistic like, hey, I'm trying to like really get people to tell their stories

[01:18:54] and ask these questions, not presenting a rhetorical argument with like very clear rhetorical goals but trying to really look at the data.

[01:19:06] I think about like Dan, oh my God, how did I forget this man's last name?

[01:19:11] McClellan.

[01:19:12] Dan McClellan.

[01:19:14] Dan over Dogma.

[01:19:17] You know, Dan is on TikTok.

[01:19:20] If those of you who don't know who he is, he's a Bible scholar and he's doing, you know, he's looking at the data.

[01:19:28] He's looking at the actual facts of the Bible of, you know, what scholars are saying and not, you know, coming from a position of having, you know, these really specific rhetorical goals.

[01:19:40] And Phil is that same way.

[01:19:41] He doesn't really talk about his personal beliefs.

[01:19:46] He's really talking about this phenomenon that's happening and it really validates the voices that he's able to, you know, elevate through his work.

[01:19:57] So I love that too.

[01:20:01] Yeah, a thousand percent.

[01:20:03] Well, I think that with that, hopefully you enjoyed that interview and check out Phil's work.

[01:20:10] He's he's a phenomenal guy and puts that research at the center, not himself at the center.

[01:20:17] I think that's what the key is, right?

[01:20:20] So where can people find us, Cortland?

[01:20:24] Yeah, I am all over the internet at Cortland Coffee.

[01:20:28] I'm the only one.

[01:20:29] If you Google me, you'll find me somewhere.

[01:20:32] Twitter is kind of where I'm most active.

[01:20:35] Unfortunately still Instagram.

[01:20:37] I'm pretty active over there as well.

[01:20:40] And then the pod is thereafterpod on Twitter and thereafterpodcast on Instagram, as well as over at patreon.com slash thereafterpod for those looking to join the discord or help support what we're doing with the show.

[01:20:57] Megan, what about yourself?

[01:21:00] I am at the pursuing life on Twitter.

[01:21:03] Currently I have a private account, but you can send me a follower request.

[01:21:08] But it'll open up before too long here.

[01:21:12] Somethings go over there on Twitter sometimes, unfortunately.

[01:21:18] Yeah, you know, but yeah, check us out in the discord too.

[01:21:21] It's been a bit and I love that community and just yeah, let's connect.

[01:21:28] So thanks for listening.

[01:21:30] Yeah, absolutely. Well until next time everybody.

[01:21:34] Till next time.