[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.
[00:00:30] I hate you, that truly.
[00:00:35] And I hate black people.
[00:00:36] Things are going to get worse before they get better.
[00:00:39] What is presented to me as an American does not look like me.
[00:00:44] Because you're not allowed to be a black man in corporate America.
[00:00:47] You give us a hard time for being white, being American and being in control.
[00:00:51] And when we live under a situation like that constantly,
[00:00:54] and then you ask me,
[00:00:56] whether I approve of violence,
[00:00:59] and that just doesn't make any sense at all.
[00:01:01] Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening right now.
[00:01:04] And you know what?
[00:01:05] We need a space where we can debrief some of it and deconstruct.
[00:01:09] If you've been looking for a POC-centered podcast
[00:01:12] that engages with intersectionality, religion, critical race theory,
[00:01:16] and some hip-hop culture, then you need to check out Provene Faith.
[00:01:20] I'll be your host, Daniel Whitehodge,
[00:01:22] and we go in every other week.
[00:01:24] So check us out wherever you find your podcasts.
[00:01:27] Or check us out at whitehodgepodcast.com
[00:01:31] to see what other platforms we're on.
[00:01:34] Cool?
[00:01:35] I, peace!
[00:01:37] I love you!
[00:01:44] All right.
[00:01:45] Okay.
[00:01:46] Welcome to the Thereafter Podcast,
[00:01:49] a place where we explore life on the other side of Faith Change.
[00:01:54] We're here to break down the binaries,
[00:01:56] deconstruct the dualities,
[00:01:58] and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.
[00:02:01] In church, we were told that life after leaving
[00:02:04] would be a better wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.
[00:02:07] Well, we've discovered quite the opposite.
[00:02:10] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of Faith
[00:02:14] who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.
[00:02:19] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expand.
[00:02:23] Of evangelicalism, evolving faith, and the life after.
[00:02:40] All right.
[00:02:41] Another episode of The Thereafter Podcast this week is just Megan and I.
[00:02:45] Megan, hello?
[00:02:46] Yeah, hi!
[00:02:47] No guests, just us hanging out.
[00:02:49] We're gonna chat.
[00:02:50] We've got some stuff that you,
[00:02:51] right before I hit record, you're like,
[00:02:53] I've got some stuff to say.
[00:02:54] Well, here's the thing.
[00:02:57] Here's the thing.
[00:02:58] There's been a lot of chatter on Twitter today,
[00:03:00] about today this week about, you know,
[00:03:04] the same new versions of the same old thing.
[00:03:06] Yeah.
[00:03:07] Pastures telling us why we deconstruct for the sex,
[00:03:10] which as our friend of the pod Jared pointed out,
[00:03:14] that's a perfectly valid reason to deconstruct.
[00:03:16] Totally.
[00:03:17] That's not why a lot of us deconstruct,
[00:03:19] but we've got a perfectly valid reason to deconstruct.
[00:03:22] And there was also some chatter about Rachel Hald Evans,
[00:03:25] and so I just thought it would be fun to have a conversation
[00:03:28] about why we actually do deconstruct,
[00:03:31] and what we've seen.
[00:03:32] We've had a lot, we have dozens of conversations with people
[00:03:36] about this all the time.
[00:03:37] We talk every Tuesday morning in Clubhouse about this stuff,
[00:03:40] and so let's have that conversation.
[00:03:42] Yeah.
[00:03:43] Yeah.
[00:03:44] And the fact that it is a continuing thing, right?
[00:03:48] And so I think that's why we've got a lot of questions
[00:03:51] about the fact that we've got a lot of questions about this.
[00:03:54] It's not like there was one moment, obviously,
[00:03:57] there was a big moment, I think in like 2016,
[00:04:01] with the big evangelical base voting for Trump,
[00:04:04] and just everything that was happening there.
[00:04:06] I think there was another big moment during COVID
[00:04:09] and lockdown with people not going to church actively
[00:04:13] and then realizing like, oh, holy shit,
[00:04:15] not being in that space led to positive things.
[00:04:19] So there was these moments,
[00:04:21] but then now we're outside of lockdown,
[00:04:24] we're outside of a Trump presidency, hopefully.
[00:04:27] Hopefully we're not heading back into that nightmare.
[00:04:32] And people continue to exit and continue
[00:04:37] to start to think differently about their faith.
[00:04:41] And so it's an ongoing thing.
[00:04:44] So it's worth talking about the fact that this is not a
[00:04:47] just singular moment in history,
[00:04:52] that these guys, I think,
[00:04:55] I think it's gotten worse now that we have guys like,
[00:04:58] you know, the Theobro kind of guys using the word
[00:05:00] deconstruction and responding to it in a way.
[00:05:02] It's made me like extra cringy about the,
[00:05:08] you know, we have a whole like sub genre of Christian books
[00:05:12] now is like how to talk to your deconstructed family member.
[00:05:15] You know,
[00:05:16] it's this replaced out of talk to your queer family members maybe
[00:05:20] or maybe it's parallel.
[00:05:23] And I think that was something where our friend Nate,
[00:05:25] who has up don't list talks,
[00:05:27] we were talking to him about that because we were talking about
[00:05:29] our discomfort with that word deconstruction.
[00:05:32] And when he pointed out,
[00:05:33] I think it really changed when evangelicals
[00:05:35] really started using it.
[00:05:36] And I was like, oh man, that's so true.
[00:05:39] Yeah.
[00:05:40] I feel that I,
[00:05:42] before we even get into this whole conversation about
[00:05:45] why people deconstructs though,
[00:05:46] I want to ask you something because I feel like when people
[00:05:50] ask me kind of what my on ramp was,
[00:05:54] I don't always have the same answer.
[00:05:56] And I am curious because as people talk and as I have
[00:06:01] conversations with people,
[00:06:03] they'll say something and I'm like, oh yeah,
[00:06:05] that happened to me too.
[00:06:07] Like during the Iraq war or during what I've called my
[00:06:11] shaneclaiborne phase when you know,
[00:06:13] in just like very different seasons of maybe evangelicalism
[00:06:18] and evangelical response to different political climate
[00:06:22] and climates and things like that,
[00:06:24] I feel like sure,
[00:06:26] maybe I have this one on ramp that I claim to be my on ramp.
[00:06:30] But I also feel like throughout my life as an evangelical,
[00:06:35] there were lots of different moments where I was questioning
[00:06:39] things and I look back at those and I'm like,
[00:06:43] had those not been questions I had then?
[00:06:46] Would that final on ramp have been my first kind of exit?
[00:06:51] What do you think about that?
[00:06:53] Well, I think that that is super interesting because it's
[00:06:57] something that I've been thinking about this last week.
[00:06:59] I listened to a podcast,
[00:07:03] it was the last dirty ranchers because episode with Danny Prada
[00:07:07] and he was the gas Danny Prada was talking about seeing people
[00:07:10] kind of like go from more to the,
[00:07:14] and I'm going to use right and left here but I'm not specifically
[00:07:18] talking about politically or even socially or even religiously
[00:07:21] but just kind of like just in general,
[00:07:24] those are kind of we tend to think of things.
[00:07:27] Yeah, we tend to think of things on this linear,
[00:07:31] more conservative versus more progressive right to left spectrum.
[00:07:35] And he was saying like I've seen people move from the right to the left
[00:07:38] and also move back in that other direction
[00:07:43] and then maybe do that multiple times.
[00:07:47] And as I looked back on my past and my history growing up
[00:07:52] and growing up Southern Baptist and then finding the Holy Spirit
[00:07:57] quote unquote, air quotes, right?
[00:08:00] Finding a charismatic church and being like oh that was kind of
[00:08:04] outside of the conservative dancing and speaking in tongues
[00:08:09] and doing it was like it was kind of move into the left
[00:08:12] and then finding the Bill Hybles and that movement
[00:08:17] of church planning, that kind of moved me back to the right.
[00:08:21] And so the Bill Hybles was in button downs and khakis
[00:08:24] and you know, it's okay wait but I have something to say
[00:08:27] about the charismatic piece.
[00:08:28] Continue your train of thought because I don't want to interrupt
[00:08:31] but I want to come back to that.
[00:08:33] So as I look at my story moving towards Shane Clayborn
[00:08:37] and Tony Compolo saying fuck at a conference I was at
[00:08:42] and then saying yeah and then saying you guys care so much
[00:08:46] about the fact that I said this but not that these kids are dying
[00:08:50] and then I was like kind of radicalized a little bit to be like yeah
[00:08:53] I'm gonna say the F word, I'm gonna you know it's not about
[00:08:56] our language, it's not about so I kind of liberalized there
[00:08:59] but I was still not queer firming you know I was still not
[00:09:04] you know I was still like very traditional in a lot of ways.
[00:09:07] So I can see myself shift back and forth
[00:09:10] and I tend to I think a lot of people that are talking
[00:09:15] about stuff in the deconstruction movement tend to talk
[00:09:19] about in a one way direction like we're shifting in this one way
[00:09:24] but I think it's really important to be aware of
[00:09:27] we've seen creators, we've seen people in the space
[00:09:31] all of a sudden be like oh no you know you're trans now
[00:09:34] you're perpetuating transphobia.
[00:09:36] Oh no now you're perpetuating Zionism or you know
[00:09:40] most recently we've seen a lot of you know stuff going on
[00:09:43] with oh now you're perpetuating this idea
[00:09:47] it's not a monolith, it's not like all of us are moving
[00:09:51] in the same direction on every topic all at once
[00:09:55] and I think it's important to keep just keep aware of that
[00:10:01] and not oversimplify this like we're all kind of moving out
[00:10:06] of conservativism in a clean one directional way.
[00:10:13] Absolutely and I think that's why we need to have this as a
[00:10:16] conversation and not a tweet right because it's like
[00:10:20] there's not just hey let's put in a hundred and however many
[00:10:24] characters or less this is why people deconstruct
[00:10:27] because it just it can't happen that way and that's why
[00:10:30] it's kind of laughable to see those theobrows try to
[00:10:33] sum it up in a tweet to say well and most of them have a
[00:10:36] blue check so they don't have as many limits on how many
[00:10:39] characters they say it in small level but I mean when you
[00:10:43] put that out there why are you deconstructing or what was
[00:10:46] your first thread that you pulled I don't know if you've
[00:10:49] ever followed you know a thread of that but all the answers
[00:10:53] are different there's so many different ones and some of
[00:10:56] it has to do with aspects of evangelicalism or whatever
[00:11:00] version of fundamentalism that people are kind of
[00:11:03] deconstructing out of. Some of it has to do with aspects
[00:11:06] that affected them personally and some of them had to
[00:11:09] do with aspects that affected people that they were
[00:11:12] close with and some of them was just like thinking and
[00:11:15] coming to the conclusion on their own this is just not
[00:11:18] okay but I do want to come back to what you said about
[00:11:20] the charismatic piece because I started in the Bill
[00:11:23] Hybles version of evangelicalism and then really kind
[00:11:27] of right before I started deconstructing I got into a small
[00:11:32] group that was very like Bethel charismatic holy spirit
[00:11:36] like pray for healing if it doesn't happen pray again
[00:11:40] and if it doesn't happen pray again and if it doesn't
[00:11:42] happen you don't have faith enough.
[00:11:44] You know and there are times when I've wondered
[00:11:47] because I mean you kind of put that on your spectrum
[00:11:50] of like that's moving in like the charismatic piece is
[00:11:53] moving like a little bit more I guess like to the
[00:11:56] left I guess you said but I've wondered had I not been
[00:12:00] in that extreme where I was like wait a second it's
[00:12:04] pretty fucked up had I like would I have gone to the
[00:12:08] you know that would I have made that leap to say okay
[00:12:12] now I'm questioning everything because I'm questioning
[00:12:15] I have a lot of questions about what's right in front
[00:12:17] of my face right now and that I think that opens
[00:12:21] the door to give myself permission to question so many
[00:12:24] more things at that time I don't know yeah I think
[00:12:27] I mean I guess for me it was moving into a more radical
[00:12:31] or a more odd presentation of faith and in the same way
[00:12:35] that like like the Shane Clayport movement right like I
[00:12:38] remember reading um uh irresistible evolution
[00:12:43] and I was still living at home was right before I had
[00:12:45] moved out of the house and so I'm living with my parents
[00:12:48] at home and I remember rigging coming home from reading
[00:12:51] that book in like one sitting and rigging all my
[00:12:54] bathrooms all four bathrooms my parents suburban home rigging
[00:12:57] them up is gray water so that you would flush the toilet
[00:13:00] and then we could use that or the gray water from our
[00:13:03] our hand washing sinks to flush our toilets because I
[00:13:06] had read that I'm like we need to be conserving this water
[00:13:08] and my dad was like I pay the fucking water bill here
[00:13:10] you need to fix all of the bathrooms we're not doing
[00:13:13] this bullshit and I'm like you're not a real Christian
[00:13:15] you're not you know you don't care about the fact
[00:13:18] we're wasting resources we're living in this you know
[00:13:20] I was radicalizing in this way that my parents thought
[00:13:24] was was was you know probably left right was was
[00:13:29] hippie-ish but also was being radicalized in a deeper
[00:13:35] more radical spirituality that my non-Christian friends
[00:13:39] would probably like you're being super weird you know
[00:13:42] so it's what's wild about all that though is that
[00:13:46] Shane Clayborn was talking about it always tied to faith
[00:13:51] right I saw Anita Franco talking about some of the same
[00:13:54] things that Shane Clayborn was talking about well
[00:13:57] before like Shane Clayborn talked about the death penalty
[00:14:00] a lot and still does right Anita Franco has an entire
[00:14:03] DVD that I had purchased in like the late 90s early
[00:14:08] 2000s where she is really act you know doing activism
[00:14:13] around ending the death penalty and things like that
[00:14:15] and so it's interesting to me because I think we get into this
[00:14:19] realm of I guess social justice slash activism that
[00:14:24] comes from a faith standpoint that is parallel to like
[00:14:28] this kind of activism has been happening all along
[00:14:31] we're just maybe getting a window into it through these
[00:14:36] you know very specific niche speakers but I also think
[00:14:39] that's probably the critique of Shane Clayborn too because his
[00:14:42] activism has a limit because he's trying to make it
[00:14:45] palatable for evangelical Christianity right
[00:14:49] and I guess I want to just like own something or address
[00:14:52] something that's probably an accusation that people would
[00:14:54] probably throw at me and I probably would be like no
[00:15:00] no no but like being honest when I was looking at it
[00:15:03] like I am prone personality wise to a radical like
[00:15:07] to be radicalized right I remember in early youth group
[00:15:12] years if I go back like the pro life movement when it
[00:15:16] was presented to me in this very radical we're going to
[00:15:19] go like tape our mouths and lie in front of clinics and do
[00:15:22] radical activism for the pro life movement I bought in
[00:15:26] to that right because I like to have a fucking cause
[00:15:32] and so I just need to be very aware of the fact
[00:15:36] that that plays into how I see and how I respond to the way
[00:15:42] information is presented to me and we need to be careful
[00:15:45] that we keep you away from moms for liberty then.
[00:15:48] I'm just kidding.
[00:15:50] I slowly hide my mom's liberty sure no I'm just kidding
[00:15:53] no I like I think that there is something to be said
[00:15:57] about the fact that that that we need to really think
[00:16:00] about how we are responding to agendas right and being
[00:16:10] you know being aware of the way we're changing our mind
[00:16:13] about things and not having it be you know just a matter
[00:16:17] of being emotionally brought into a cause.
[00:16:22] Well and I joke but I that's kind of how I see
[00:16:26] the folks that are part of moms for liberty at like it feels
[00:16:30] like there's you know and there's like a group of well
[00:16:36] a very influential group of suburban housewives that feel
[00:16:41] like they're they've gotten behind a cause and it's like
[00:16:45] oh don't we want what's best for the children don't we
[00:16:48] want our children to not be exposed to sexual predators
[00:16:51] and it's like that propaganda I feel like can be so
[00:16:55] manipulative that it collects people that are super toxic
[00:17:00] and then it also collects people that are like I'm just
[00:17:03] kind of sitting around feeling like I want to matter more
[00:17:06] and I want to pick up a cause and I want to fight for something
[00:17:09] and this feels like a worthy cause because it benefits children
[00:17:13] you know and they're not really kind of processing or thinking
[00:17:16] through and I'm not saying that you didn't process
[00:17:18] or think through some of these things but I do think that it just
[00:17:21] kind of collects this audience that's like you can you can be
[00:17:24] part of this group in this movement will do kind of the
[00:17:28] groundwork for you and you just kind of show up and bring us
[00:17:31] the numbers you know. There are moments for sure where I
[00:17:34] didn't process right like they're there I think about
[00:17:38] I we talked about on the podcast I think for a second
[00:17:42] I'm gonna butcher his name Josh Porter, Josh S. Porter
[00:17:47] he's a pastor over near your neck of the woods. He's in a
[00:17:51] hardcore band called Showbred or was and you know he's
[00:17:55] like the most rebellious thing you can do is follow Jesus
[00:17:58] the most radical thing it's the most countercultural thing you
[00:18:01] can do in the world you know he's got emo hair and tattoos
[00:18:04] head to toe and and he's like it's so radical it's so counterculture
[00:18:08] the culture once it's like it's punk rock to love Jesus
[00:18:13] I you know I just think that we need to be hyper aware of the
[00:18:17] fact that like like are we thinking about these other
[00:18:23] aspects of power of decolonization of whiteness and I
[00:18:27] think that that's why you talk about Andy DeFranco was
[00:18:30] saying this stuff back in the 90s when we look at like
[00:18:33] Bell Hooks and like black women that were saying this you
[00:18:37] know stuff way back and it's like oh no it's actually we
[00:18:41] can't get hyped up into this idea that this is a new
[00:18:45] movement or this is this is something that is disconnected
[00:18:50] from all this other important activism work that's been going on
[00:18:53] for a long time. I think that that's an important part of
[00:18:58] thinking through these sort of movements that happen again
[00:19:02] talking about deconstruction kind of as a movement but
[00:19:06] obviously something when we talk to like Shannon T.
[00:19:08] Currence right and like he's like oh this was going on for me
[00:19:11] back in you know decades ago or we talked to you
[00:19:16] know other folks who were who have been on the show who were
[00:19:19] like oh yeah this was happening in the 70s this was
[00:19:21] happening in the 80s I mean this is not new to the year
[00:19:25] 2020. Yes but our ability to connect with each other
[00:19:30] and have the conversations is new I think a new-ish and
[00:19:34] I think that's what that's where you see this kind of
[00:19:37] quote-unquote movement or community. Say more.
[00:19:39] Yeah I would say I guess I have so many thoughts so
[00:19:46] many different directions based on just what you just said but
[00:19:49] I want to kind of pull back for a minute because
[00:19:53] I do want to kind of say what are some of the first
[00:19:56] threads that people are pulling and what was your first
[00:19:59] thread because we can kind of start there because I do
[00:20:01] feel like there are these on ramps and then once you open
[00:20:04] the door you find so many different other topics and
[00:20:09] things that were dissecting and understanding and all of
[00:20:12] those pieces and having conversations about that intersect
[00:20:15] with each other but yeah I'm just curious let's just start
[00:20:19] there because I think we'll wander into all of the
[00:20:21] other different pieces. I mean if I'm talking about like
[00:20:24] very very first threads this is years before I even got to
[00:20:30] the place where I was like yeah I'm deconverting.
[00:20:32] I'm you know so but it is just the fact that like
[00:20:37] other Christians who look wildly different than me are
[00:20:40] still valid Christians like that was a first thought
[00:20:44] that like I wasn't allowed to think right didn't
[00:20:48] think I was like we have the version of Christianity and
[00:20:51] I was like oh but we have this other type of Christian
[00:20:54] over here that believes something different and like if
[00:20:57] they're still Christian then you know that was kind of
[00:21:01] the first like like realizing that like charismatic Christians
[00:21:05] could be Christians or more progressive or liberal
[00:21:08] Christians could be Christian or you know I grew up
[00:21:11] so in Baptist in this tradition that was like we are
[00:21:15] the really you know I didn't really think Methodists
[00:21:18] or Lutherans were like really Christian they were like
[00:21:21] maybe maybe they'll get in definitely not Catholics
[00:21:24] right so like just accepting that like other Christians
[00:21:28] were Christian was I think maybe a step one or a thread
[00:21:31] one for me in starting to unpack or have things
[00:21:36] unravel yeah what about you I see that well I
[00:21:43] think mine like I kind of mentioned that kind of
[00:21:47] right before I was deconstructing I was I was on the
[00:21:50] kind of I don't even know how to put it I mean yes
[00:21:54] that charismatic edge but I feel like what happened was
[00:21:58] I stepped really deeply into evangelicalism especially
[00:22:03] like early early in the pandemic I was like okay my
[00:22:07] life around me is falling apart I feel like if I hold on
[00:22:10] to my spirituality then I'll have some sense of control
[00:22:13] over my life and I felt like the closer the deeper
[00:22:16] and I got that's when I started to get to topics
[00:22:19] that I started to be uncomfortable with and then
[00:22:22] and I've said this on Twitter before once I started
[00:22:25] asking those questions the responses that I got to
[00:22:29] those questions is what made it all fall apart
[00:22:31] and I think you know I could say a lot of different things
[00:22:34] I think that probably queer affirmation was my
[00:22:38] I guess when I look at it my first thread but I also
[00:22:41] think that was connected to my experience having
[00:22:44] gone through purity culture and then seeing that
[00:22:47] and I've talked about this before seeing that
[00:22:49] laid out like okay if you're queer in the
[00:22:51] church you have three options you can either deny
[00:22:53] your queerness and then you're you know not living
[00:22:56] out the path that God or no sorry if you live
[00:22:59] into your queer identity you're not living out
[00:23:02] the path that God wants for you or you could
[00:23:04] force yourself into a heterosexual marriage
[00:23:06] or you could just be celibate for life and I was
[00:23:09] like okay I went through purity culture as a
[00:23:11] straight woman this is purity culture triple down
[00:23:15] compounded and handed like I felt like I could
[00:23:19] visibly see the trauma being handed to queer folks
[00:23:22] and at the time I didn't even know I was queer
[00:23:24] myself right and so I'm kind of processing this
[00:23:28] and then I also was reading Jesus in John Wayne
[00:23:32] and I feel like I can't deny the impact that
[00:23:35] that book had on me because I felt like it's
[00:23:37] said a lot of the quiet parts out loud the parts
[00:23:40] that I've been wrestling with and all she did
[00:23:42] all Kristen Kobe DeMade did was just write history
[00:23:46] right and you read through that and you've
[00:23:49] lived through that and you're like holy fuck yeah
[00:23:53] yeah yeah I yeah I think that I I even got to a
[00:23:59] place where I hear you talk about the three different
[00:24:01] like options for folks I even got to the place
[00:24:04] where I think like maybe Andy's to Emily and some
[00:24:06] of these people are is like like there's even
[00:24:09] a fourth option like queer could people could get married
[00:24:11] and be queer but they're still wrong like they can
[00:24:14] still be Christian but like somehow they can still
[00:24:16] be Christian and still be wrong I think that there is a
[00:24:20] and that I feel like the next step of that is Matthew
[00:24:23] Vines in the Reformation project which is like
[00:24:25] you can be queer and you can get married as long
[00:24:28] as you are absent until you're married as long as
[00:24:31] you kind of do it like the straights do as long
[00:24:33] as it's like the respectability politics of
[00:24:35] like just as long as your relationship looks real
[00:24:38] right but like I guess if you know yeah but still
[00:24:41] no sex before marriage still all all that sort
[00:24:45] yeah it really is there's all these different
[00:24:48] like steps along the way towards then just ultimately
[00:24:53] realizing like oh like you know you know even
[00:24:58] realizing like Quernis is this big broad
[00:25:00] spectrum right of things that aren't just
[00:25:05] these very binary gays and lesbians right
[00:25:10] and that gender is this big spectrum of things
[00:25:13] and I think that that again is part of the scary
[00:25:17] part for these alarmists who you know are
[00:25:22] terrified about deconstruction is because
[00:25:25] the endgame really is a really really
[00:25:30] nuanced perspective on these things
[00:25:33] that gets where you end up with a lot of nuance
[00:25:36] and really the binary dissolving
[00:25:40] and I think that's a really terrifying place
[00:25:43] for these people in rigid institutions
[00:25:47] that feel at risk by that binary.
[00:25:51] And I think I was thinking about this
[00:25:54] even earlier today because I was thinking
[00:25:57] about what our conversation we were going to be having
[00:25:59] and I have this thought that in 10,
[00:26:03] 15, 20 years the evangelical church will
[00:26:07] probably be largely queer affirming and
[00:26:10] the Andy Stan Lee's and the Shane Claiborans
[00:26:12] that have been kind of like oh I'm neutral
[00:26:14] but I'm quietly affirming but I'm not going to say
[00:26:16] out loud they're going to be kind of your
[00:26:18] relevant and everyone's just going to be like
[00:26:21] oh we're queer affirming and they're just going
[00:26:23] to try to ignore this piece of history where
[00:26:25] everyone was just having a shit storm about it
[00:26:28] and be like oh yeah that was the dark days
[00:26:31] of evangelicalism yeah it was probably
[00:26:33] and I just feel like we're going to kind of
[00:26:35] hurt like go over this hurdle
[00:26:38] and then be faced with like okay now can we
[00:26:41] talk about the toxic theology because you open
[00:26:43] that door right and you're like okay but also
[00:26:46] can we talk about health?
[00:26:47] Can we talk about being told that you're born
[00:26:51] depraved as a human and you can't trust your instinct
[00:26:54] can we talk about you know like
[00:26:56] because I think that's what's happened with
[00:26:59] race because I feel like you know there's
[00:27:02] so much racism in the roots of evangelicalism
[00:27:05] and people are like okay well now we're
[00:27:08] trying to be inclusive now so everything's
[00:27:10] fine right you know and it's like no things
[00:27:13] aren't fine.
[00:27:14] Like like like just recently like not like
[00:27:17] a long time ago like like I think about
[00:27:19] growing up I never heard about how deeply
[00:27:22] I did Bob Jones curriculum in my
[00:27:25] homeschooling in the 90s and the
[00:27:28] early 2000s and like that university
[00:27:31] like wasn't allowing
[00:27:33] interracial couples to like be public
[00:27:36] on campus or exist on campus into
[00:27:39] the late 80s.
[00:27:40] Yeah even yeah I'm looking this up because
[00:27:43] I think it was even later than that.
[00:27:45] Like how how how how did we you know
[00:27:49] and again I think it goes back to what you
[00:27:51] said about visibility.
[00:27:52] You're like there's visibility now like
[00:27:55] there are tick-tock accounts, there are
[00:27:57] Instagram accounts, there are social
[00:27:59] media and the fact that individuals
[00:28:01] can publish content and exist and be
[00:28:04] visible on the internet.
[00:28:05] I think is a huge factor that is going
[00:28:08] to make it very different but think about
[00:28:10] the way the evangelical church treated
[00:28:12] divorced people right?
[00:28:13] Like that wasn't yeah wasn't an issue
[00:28:15] at all in many of the churches I grew up
[00:28:17] and if people were divorced.
[00:28:18] I had pastors who were divorced,
[00:28:20] I had youth pastors who went through
[00:28:22] divorces and it was not you know think
[00:28:25] about 20 years ago the way that
[00:28:27] divorced folks were treated in you know
[00:28:29] the taboo that was especially divorced
[00:28:33] women right?
[00:28:34] It's always been a double standard
[00:28:35] divorced man and divorced women have
[00:28:37] always been treated differently.
[00:28:38] I think still to this day get treated
[00:28:40] differently within evangelicalism but you
[00:28:44] know we just you know as an institution
[00:28:47] you realize out we can't fight that one
[00:28:49] anymore we're just going to ignore
[00:28:51] we were ever on the losing side there.
[00:28:54] Yeah absolutely.
[00:28:55] Did you look at that?
[00:28:56] Did you ever find it?
[00:28:57] Well yeah I was looking at this
[00:28:59] up about Bob Jones and it's it looks
[00:29:02] like there's an article from 2000
[00:29:05] where Bush says I'm heartened to hear
[00:29:08] that they're finally reversing their
[00:29:10] band on interracial dating so I don't
[00:29:13] think that's the very end of the 90s
[00:29:16] beginning of the day.
[00:29:17] But it also says that they didn't even
[00:29:19] admit black students until 1971
[00:29:23] and initially it was only if they were
[00:29:26] married I mean it's just like
[00:29:28] like you can't you can't just change
[00:29:31] your policy and then be like so we're
[00:29:35] cool now right?
[00:29:36] Yeah I mean obviously you can like
[00:29:40] they did like but yeah you I mean
[00:29:43] you you you you shouldn't it
[00:29:46] it is it is wild to think about
[00:29:49] but again we didn't see it.
[00:29:51] We didn't I didn't see
[00:29:54] we didn't have an ability to see I couldn't
[00:29:56] get on TikTok and see people who
[00:29:59] were deconstructing or
[00:30:00] deconverted or expasters I didn't know
[00:30:03] any of these people existed
[00:30:05] and I think that that is forever
[00:30:08] and I think that's why I think
[00:30:11] it's just now that we have the
[00:30:14] media platforms that we have and
[00:30:17] the podcast and the way for people
[00:30:20] to tell stories.
[00:30:22] That they can tell now.
[00:30:24] I think that this next generation
[00:30:28] of people because there are still
[00:30:31] people growing up in.
[00:30:33] Evangelism there's obviously still
[00:30:36] a lot of people are going to
[00:30:38] get on my FYP pretty regularly
[00:30:40] and she plays music and she's
[00:30:42] you know got this platform being
[00:30:45] XK X lesbians and she's playing
[00:30:47] worship music and it comes up on my
[00:30:50] four-year page all the time because
[00:30:52] TikTok knows that they want to
[00:30:54] serve me stuff that's going to make
[00:30:56] me angry.
[00:30:57] And so the algorithm knows that
[00:30:59] me seeing young XK movement people
[00:31:01] is going to make me comment and
[00:31:03] whatever.
[00:31:04] And I think that's why I think
[00:31:06] it's because I think that we have
[00:31:08] a lot of people who are going to
[00:31:10] get on my FYP for this girl,
[00:31:12] this person.
[00:31:14] That I'm like, have you talked to
[00:31:16] anyone in the XK movement from the
[00:31:18] 90s? Have you talked to anyone
[00:31:20] who grew up in Exodus International?
[00:31:22] Like we did that.
[00:31:24] We did, you know.
[00:31:25] There has been and I hope and I
[00:31:27] think that more and more people
[00:31:29] are going to probably connect with
[00:31:31] them.
[00:31:32] And I think that's why I think
[00:31:33] we're going to have a lot of
[00:31:35] people who are going to get on my
[00:31:37] FYP for this.
[00:31:38] For a way, you know, their
[00:31:39] stories are out there and able
[00:31:41] to be accessed in a way.
[00:31:43] Those people didn't have any way
[00:31:45] to access those stories.
[00:31:47] Well yeah, I mean even when we were
[00:31:49] talking to, I was visiting a venue
[00:31:51] that we're looking at for content
[00:31:53] wording for our event and we were
[00:31:55] talking about what the kind of
[00:31:57] the community that we have and
[00:31:59] what the community is doing.
[00:32:01] Yeah, I've seen a lot of these
[00:32:03] documentaries.
[00:32:04] I mean, that was the window in
[00:32:05] because it's like people are starting
[00:32:07] to speak up and have an avenue
[00:32:09] in media to do that.
[00:32:10] I want to go back real quick to
[00:32:12] what you were saying about, like
[00:32:14] the kind of the way divorce
[00:32:16] was looked at because.
[00:32:17] Yeah.
[00:32:18] Don't you think that those
[00:32:19] changes have happened because
[00:32:20] suddenly, like initially there's
[00:32:22] a pastor that's like, oh, we need
[00:32:24] to be approaching folks that are
[00:32:26] divorced a little bit better.
[00:32:27] And then suddenly it happens
[00:32:28] that we're going to be able to
[00:32:30] see what the community is doing.
[00:32:32] And then we're going to be able to
[00:32:34] see what the community is doing.
[00:32:36] Oh, let's completely
[00:32:38] re-veit how we feel about this.
[00:32:40] It's like the closer it hits
[00:32:42] to the community and hits to
[00:32:44] home, they're making the shifts
[00:32:46] in the changes.
[00:32:47] And that's where I see like, oh,
[00:32:49] we have queer members of our staff.
[00:32:51] Now we have to consider it a little
[00:32:53] bit more than just like us versus
[00:32:55] them.
[00:32:56] And then we have to consider it a little bit
[00:32:58] more than just like us versus
[00:33:00] the community.
[00:33:01] And so, I think that's why
[00:33:03] the church has to make this decision
[00:33:05] like, oh, are we going to address
[00:33:07] that or are we going to ignore that?
[00:33:09] Yeah.
[00:33:10] And I want to be clear.
[00:33:11] I think that is 100% true.
[00:33:13] It's 100% real and important.
[00:33:15] And I think it's important to say
[00:33:17] that it's about visibility of those people.
[00:33:19] You know, with the divorce
[00:33:20] conversation, obviously, like there
[00:33:22] is something that has to happen.
[00:33:24] You know, society in general, right?
[00:33:26] How many people couldn't get divorced
[00:33:28] because our society didn't allow women
[00:33:30] to have a credit card.
[00:33:32] Or a bank account in their name.
[00:33:34] And it changes in the laws on no fault
[00:33:35] divorce too.
[00:33:36] Exactly.
[00:33:37] So there's that.
[00:33:38] But the reality when it comes to queer people
[00:33:41] and trans people is they've been on
[00:33:43] staff at your churches.
[00:33:44] They've been in your church.
[00:33:45] Yes.
[00:33:46] But now we're seeing a situation
[00:33:49] where they're able to come out.
[00:33:51] They're able to present.
[00:33:52] They're able to show themselves.
[00:33:54] And people are realizing that, oh, I have queer kids
[00:33:59] in my family.
[00:34:00] I have cousins.
[00:34:01] I have aunts and uncles who are trans
[00:34:04] or non-binary or queer.
[00:34:06] And they've always been there.
[00:34:09] They've always been there.
[00:34:11] But now we're seeing them be able to say,
[00:34:14] oh no, I'm going to show my queer identity.
[00:34:17] And I still want to keep leading worship here.
[00:34:20] And I want to continue to be involved in this community.
[00:34:23] And I'm going to keep showing up at Thanksgiving.
[00:34:25] And I'm not just going to disappear.
[00:34:27] And we're not just going to,
[00:34:29] we just had World AIDS Day.
[00:34:31] We look at the amount of representation we lost
[00:34:34] because as a society,
[00:34:36] we ignored a disease that basically eradicated
[00:34:41] a whole generation of queer folks
[00:34:44] and the straight powers that be
[00:34:48] basically celebrated that this was happening.
[00:34:52] Yeah, and I think the same thing could be said
[00:34:55] or a similar thing could be said about what we're seeing
[00:34:58] with the racial injustice.
[00:35:01] And now we're having video proof of things
[00:35:05] that our black friends have been saying
[00:35:07] have been happening for a long time.
[00:35:10] And people have been screaming to be heard.
[00:35:12] And it's like, okay, you haven't been listening.
[00:35:14] Now we have this on video.
[00:35:16] Look at how we're being treated.
[00:35:18] Look at what's happening to us.
[00:35:20] Look at what the police are doing.
[00:35:22] And I think that is that piece of like this has been going on.
[00:35:25] And now people are finally looking and seeing
[00:35:28] and realizing, oh, like this is something that
[00:35:32] we have not listened to for decades,
[00:35:35] for generations for years.
[00:35:37] And I think that that is
[00:35:39] it goes into
[00:35:42] the point about who is making content.
[00:35:46] Sometimes it can feel in this space,
[00:35:48] the deconstruction space.
[00:35:50] Like there's so many podcasts,
[00:35:52] there's so many Instagram accounts,
[00:35:53] there's so many people doing this.
[00:35:56] But like I really truly believe that we need even more.
[00:36:00] We need even more people telling these stories
[00:36:02] and talking about it because like we don't need one voice
[00:36:07] that's reaching 100,000 to 200,000 and a half a million people.
[00:36:11] We need 1,000 voices reaching 100 people,
[00:36:15] a couple hundred people.
[00:36:17] Right?
[00:36:18] We need to have a diversity of experience being represented
[00:36:22] and that's what's happening in the social media space
[00:36:29] is that we are moving from a place where one story
[00:36:34] is being told to a big group of people
[00:36:38] to a place where 1,000 stories or several hundred stories
[00:36:43] because there's so much different,
[00:36:45] so much nuance and so much commonality between all
[00:36:49] these different stories.
[00:36:51] Every queer person experience, every trans person,
[00:36:53] every person of color's experience
[00:36:55] is going to have an element that's slightly different
[00:36:57] that's going to bring something to the conversation.
[00:37:00] It's so interesting because I was reading a book
[00:37:03] that I picked up a couple of weeks ago about a lesbian woman
[00:37:07] who had been married to a man and didn't know she was a lesbian
[00:37:11] and they had kids and they were raising him.
[00:37:13] She had this kind of like idyllic white pick
[00:37:16] offense suburban life and then everything kind of changed
[00:37:19] when she came out and realized she was a lesbian
[00:37:21] and now she's partnered with a woman.
[00:37:23] In her introduction, she says that as she was writing her story
[00:37:28] people were like, that story has been told.
[00:37:31] What about Ellen?
[00:37:33] And what about Glenn and Doyle?
[00:37:35] And she was writing her story right as untamed
[00:37:37] was becoming really big.
[00:37:39] And she's like, I'm not Glenn and Doyle.
[00:37:41] I actually homeschool my kids.
[00:37:43] Things like that and she was like, my story is different
[00:37:46] just because I'm a lesbian woman doesn't,
[00:37:48] and this is my life.
[00:37:50] Now, I'm not Glenn and Doyle.
[00:37:52] I'm somebody else and I have a valid reason to tell my story too.
[00:37:56] I thought that was interesting because I think there are
[00:37:58] a lot of people even in the deconstruction space and we've
[00:38:01] talked about this when we're talking about like our collaborator
[00:38:03] team too for our event.
[00:38:05] But there's a lot of people that are like, okay, well,
[00:38:07] there's already somebody that is transitioning gender
[00:38:11] that's speaking in this space and so I'll just let them
[00:38:14] kind of do that.
[00:38:15] And it's like, no, I want to hear all of my trans friends
[00:38:18] sharing their journeys if they want to share their journeys.
[00:38:21] And like all, like, and if you talk to one trans person
[00:38:25] you're talking to one trans person.
[00:38:27] You're not talking to the trans community.
[00:38:30] Yes, yeah.
[00:38:31] And so we need a big diverse group of people
[00:38:37] adding into these conversations and joining in to the conversation
[00:38:42] and also there are people, they are going to be people
[00:38:47] and I have been this person in different contexts who don't
[00:38:52] want to talk about it.
[00:38:53] And like I just want to talk about something else.
[00:38:55] I just want to talk about anime and emo music or something.
[00:38:58] You know, I don't want to talk about being queer or polyamorous
[00:39:01] or anything else right now.
[00:39:02] I just want to talk about something else.
[00:39:04] And that's okay too.
[00:39:05] Like there's a space for a trans person to just exist
[00:39:12] and speak on something else or just add to the conversation
[00:39:18] because they are more than just their trans identity.
[00:39:21] They are more than just their queerness or their racial identity.
[00:39:26] Like they exist outside of that as well.
[00:39:30] And so I think, you know,
[00:39:34] as we see the deconstruction space grow and have
[00:39:40] and flow and change,
[00:39:42] I think being intentional about acknowledging
[00:39:46] the things that you just said and that I've been saying
[00:39:49] is an important piece of having it grow in a healthy way
[00:39:54] because it's still growing.
[00:39:55] Yeah, and I think once we're in this space
[00:39:59] we have wandered through so much conversation
[00:40:02] that has allowed us to grow and learn more
[00:40:05] because especially when you're open to that right?
[00:40:07] I remember at our meetup that we did in Portland
[00:40:10] we had Sarah Moslin or there who was behind the after-peerity project.
[00:40:14] And if you haven't seen there's been some news lately
[00:40:17] where she's partnered with Brad O'Neigh Sheet
[00:40:19] to do a mini series podcast about purity culture.
[00:40:22] And between her and some of the content from Ashley Thomas,
[00:40:26] a creator at our meetup,
[00:40:28] there was talk about like a lot of us feel like purity culture
[00:40:31] started with I kiss dating goodbye in Joshua Harris
[00:40:34] but there's roots that go all the way back to slavery
[00:40:38] and I'm going to give a content warning here
[00:40:40] because this is about violence against black people
[00:40:43] but there's roots towards people owning black women's bodies
[00:40:47] and slave owners having to kind of having that control
[00:40:52] of other over women's bodies.
[00:40:54] And roots in the way that white women impacted the way
[00:40:59] that black people were treated just based on somebody whistling at them
[00:41:04] and things like that.
[00:41:05] And so thinking through my own experience of purity culture
[00:41:09] is not a definition of purity culture, right?
[00:41:12] And so I've had to even expand my understanding of what is purity culture
[00:41:17] and that's why I cannot...
[00:41:19] I don't feel comfortable writing a book on purity culture
[00:41:23] with just my own perspective.
[00:41:25] Unless it's like I very much identify this is my social location,
[00:41:29] this is my experience.
[00:41:31] But what I love is having that expansive understanding
[00:41:34] that happens when we're in community and collaboration with other people
[00:41:37] that bring that expertise and bring their lived experience
[00:41:41] and their knowledge and their background of research to these topics.
[00:41:46] Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:48] I mean, I could ramble on
[00:41:50] but I feel like I'm going to start to say the same thing over and over again.
[00:41:53] Like I feel which is my...
[00:41:56] That's how I do things.
[00:41:57] It's like yes.
[00:41:58] And let's say it again in a slightly different way.
[00:42:01] But I think you're exactly right.
[00:42:04] Do you have any...
[00:42:05] I know you said you had a lot of different ways
[00:42:06] you wanted to take the conversation.
[00:42:07] Do you have any other kind of directions you want to chat about?
[00:42:10] As we get to the end.
[00:42:13] Yeah, I do.
[00:42:14] Okay, there's a couple of things.
[00:42:15] I think one of the conversations that's been happening on Twitter
[00:42:19] is I feel like there's pastors
[00:42:21] that are starting to move in the direction of saying,
[00:42:24] okay, I think there's a sense that evangelicals are like
[00:42:28] these folks deconstructing are hurt.
[00:42:31] They're traumatized.
[00:42:32] Oh yeah.
[00:42:33] And they had a bad experience
[00:42:35] and they shouldn't give up on the church
[00:42:38] because of their bad experience.
[00:42:40] And so that was a conversation that I was having
[00:42:43] even today in a thread where a pastor was like,
[00:42:47] if you've been abused or if you've experienced church hurt,
[00:42:51] don't leave the V church,
[00:42:53] the capital T capital C church.
[00:42:57] You can leave A church but don't leave V church.
[00:43:00] And I just want to talk about that for a minute
[00:43:03] because I think it's another area of deconstruction
[00:43:06] that we wander through is there's a lot of abuse.
[00:43:09] But also there's people that want to say
[00:43:12] that leader was toxic.
[00:43:14] Jesus and John Wayne has all of these examples.
[00:43:16] Those were outliers that Christen Kobe Dimae just pulled in
[00:43:20] to make a case and build her thesis.
[00:43:23] But in fact, no,
[00:43:25] there's toxicity within the inherent beliefs
[00:43:27] that are held by interpretations
[00:43:29] of the Bible that evangelicals have.
[00:43:32] Yeah.
[00:43:33] Well, it plays right in to a silly tweet
[00:43:37] that I had last week, maybe the week before,
[00:43:41] about Mason Meniga.
[00:43:43] Because there was an interchange or an exchange
[00:43:45] between him and somebody at the oboe,
[00:43:48] basically saying like, hey, do you believe in the Trinity?
[00:43:51] And Mason comes back and says, yes, I believe in the Trinity.
[00:43:54] And he goes, well, why do you believe in the Trinity?
[00:43:56] Do you believe that God was actually for sure a three person?
[00:43:59] And basically Mason was like, I think that they have
[00:44:02] multiplicity of God and that's a huge part
[00:44:05] of why I think the God story is so cool
[00:44:09] and that it is multiple persons and et cetera, et cetera.
[00:44:12] And the guy comes back and he's like, well,
[00:44:14] with your definition, God could be four people or five people.
[00:44:17] Why just three? Why just the Trinity?
[00:44:20] And Mason comes back and he's like, sure,
[00:44:22] I guess the important thing is that it's multiple people.
[00:44:24] And the three is great.
[00:44:26] But yeah, I guess technically it could be four or five.
[00:44:29] But sure. And the guy was like, well,
[00:44:31] you're not a real Christian then and we would have
[00:44:33] a lot more respect for you if you just said,
[00:44:35] you know, you're curious about some parts of Christianity
[00:44:38] but you're not actually a Christian.
[00:44:41] And I screen shot at this little thing
[00:44:44] and I was like, you know, me, I say like,
[00:44:47] I'm done, I'm deconverting, I'm no longer a Christian
[00:44:49] and then Christians will say exactly what you just said.
[00:44:51] Don't throw the baby out. Don't leave the church.
[00:44:54] Don't, don't, don't, don't get upset and just leave.
[00:44:57] And then people like Mason are like, I'm still a Christian.
[00:45:00] I'm going to stay here. I'm going to be here.
[00:45:02] And then they're like, no, we would have respect for you if you
[00:45:05] would just not call yourself a Christian.
[00:45:08] Which one is it? Right? Like, like, yeah.
[00:45:11] Like at the end of the day, it's not about wanting me
[00:45:14] to just stay. It is wanting me to, for many people,
[00:45:18] it is wanting me to believe the exact specific definition
[00:45:22] of belief that you have deemed necessary for me to believe
[00:45:26] to stay in. So it's not just about, hey,
[00:45:29] just stay in the broader church.
[00:45:31] No, you don't want me to stay in the broader church as a person
[00:45:34] who has expansive beliefs about theology
[00:45:38] or even just exists in my queerness
[00:45:41] or has a relationship that's non-monogamous
[00:45:44] or whatever it might be. However I am,
[00:45:47] I'm not welcome to just stay in the big church.
[00:45:50] Right? In the capital C church,
[00:45:54] has not welcomed me. So I feel like I have to leave.
[00:45:58] Yeah. And I just think that it's again back to that.
[00:46:02] And what I said to this pastor that I was going back and forth
[00:46:05] with, I was like, if you say I'm not allowed to leave,
[00:46:09] you're basically telling me I'm in a job I can't quit,
[00:46:13] no matter how toxic it gets and no matter how traumatized I am.
[00:46:19] I have to stay. But the thing is, like what I think
[00:46:23] is beautiful is once I have permission to leave
[00:46:26] and once I give myself that permission,
[00:46:28] like I tweeted out this week, I had put up my Christmas decorations
[00:46:32] and I put up an activity scene and I had some little giraffes
[00:46:35] and I had to wear a dress. I loved it.
[00:46:37] I loved it. But the giraffes belong there.
[00:46:39] But there's something to me that I'm like,
[00:46:43] I love a story where like a person that is kind of the king
[00:46:50] is not a typical like warrior soldier emperor type.
[00:46:56] That is the type of person that is just an unlikely hero
[00:47:01] that sees people that are unseen and hold space for marginalized folks
[00:47:06] and flips scripts and gets angry at injustice.
[00:47:09] And like to me, I'm like, I like that story.
[00:47:11] I don't know that I take it literally, but I love the metaphor
[00:47:14] of what that means to me.
[00:47:16] And so having that be kind of what I still look at for me
[00:47:21] that's helpful and it's not helpful for other people
[00:47:24] and I hold space for that too.
[00:47:26] And so I just think if people, if those pastors could be
[00:47:30] a little bit more trauma informed and understand like
[00:47:35] you're not the gay keeper of what?
[00:47:40] I don't know, gets you into calls you the capital C Christian
[00:47:45] or whatever. I don't know.
[00:47:48] I think that there's a lot more people who hardline de-convert
[00:47:53] because of a lack of inclusivity beyond hurt.
[00:47:57] We get hurt everywhere.
[00:48:00] I mean, I've been hurt in the deconstruction space.
[00:48:03] I've been hurt at work.
[00:48:05] I've been hurt in queer spaces.
[00:48:08] I've been hurt in friendships.
[00:48:10] I didn't go like, I'm no longer having friends.
[00:48:12] No more friends for me.
[00:48:13] No, like I didn't, right?
[00:48:15] Or no more work.
[00:48:16] No, no more work.
[00:48:17] I'm never going back.
[00:48:18] I'm not never going out with a guy again.
[00:48:20] I don't like sure.
[00:48:21] Maybe there are some people but in general we go like,
[00:48:24] okay, there's gonna be hurt, right?
[00:48:26] And I'm not trying to discount the hurt that happened.
[00:48:28] I got hurt deeply in church.
[00:48:30] But more often than not, it's the inclusivity.
[00:48:33] It's the fact that I cannot believe what I need to believe.
[00:48:37] I cannot show up in however I need to show up and be accepted.
[00:48:42] That's really the big thing.
[00:48:44] If I show up at church, if we had on the podcast a few days ago,
[00:48:49] well, theoretical theology.
[00:48:52] Heretical, not theoretical.
[00:48:54] Heretical theology, right?
[00:48:56] If you showed up at a church,
[00:48:58] it was like, hey, I've been doing this divination magic.
[00:49:00] I've been doing this chaos magic.
[00:49:02] They would be like, get the fuck out.
[00:49:03] Like, you're not allowed to show up in that space.
[00:49:06] That way.
[00:49:07] They wouldn't be able to show up with in the kilton,
[00:49:11] with the painted nails.
[00:49:12] However that might be maybe some churches but most churches
[00:49:16] aren't going to allow for us to show up as ourselves.
[00:49:19] So I think it comes way more down to inclusivity than it does hurt
[00:49:25] in most cases.
[00:49:28] And that that hurt reason is really just a straw man.
[00:49:33] It is, oh, you were just hurt.
[00:49:35] Yeah.
[00:49:36] And I think it also comes down to having a limit
[00:49:39] to the questions that you're able to ask
[00:49:41] and the things that you're able to wonder about
[00:49:43] because you go into those spaces
[00:49:45] and it's like when that pastor says to me
[00:49:48] you can't leave the capital T capital C church.
[00:49:52] I'm like, okay, will you just admit
[00:49:54] that your version of whatever that is
[00:49:56] is a biblical interpretation that you're personally holding
[00:49:59] in the line and what you call capital C church
[00:50:03] is what you think is church.
[00:50:05] But it's not necessarily for everyone,
[00:50:08] and I think that the unwillingness to acknowledge
[00:50:11] that there's different biblical interpretations
[00:50:14] and be it's okay to ask questions.
[00:50:17] It's not going to break down your whole empire.
[00:50:20] I think that alone is what makes people be like,
[00:50:23] you know what?
[00:50:24] This is not, no, this is not for me.
[00:50:26] Yeah.
[00:50:27] But here's, can I tell a story that I think
[00:50:30] ties right into this?
[00:50:31] And I think is one of the reasons
[00:50:33] that Christians are terrified about queer community
[00:50:38] in general.
[00:50:41] My kid, my kid was middle school.
[00:50:45] My kid was almost 12.
[00:50:46] He's first year middle school.
[00:50:48] And you know, different kids are going to develop
[00:50:53] at this point.
[00:50:54] My kid has no concept of personal sexuality
[00:50:58] or even really gendered to, you know,
[00:51:00] he's happy being a little boy.
[00:51:03] But that hasn't really been anything
[00:51:06] that's been on his radar.
[00:51:07] He's just been existing and loving his life and happy.
[00:51:10] And one of the people who he's really connected with
[00:51:15] at his middle school is one of his teachers
[00:51:17] who's a non-binary teacher,
[00:51:18] and they're incredible,
[00:51:19] and they run a club there at the school
[00:51:22] for queer students and allies called Prism Club
[00:51:26] that, you know, happens.
[00:51:28] It's an on-at school club to gather
[00:51:31] and hang out, get support for queer students,
[00:51:35] allies of queer students.
[00:51:36] And my kid loves Prism Club.
[00:51:39] My kid has no particular queer identity,
[00:51:43] but feels comfortable and accepted in that space
[00:51:47] to go and exist and be and be a part of community.
[00:51:51] Without pressure to be anything specific.
[00:51:55] If there was a Christian club,
[00:51:58] because I was a part of a Christian club on campus
[00:52:01] at school in my middle school,
[00:52:03] it was called Club 121.
[00:52:04] I don't know if other people went to Club 121s.
[00:52:07] Can I just ask did you do see you at the poll?
[00:52:10] I did see you at the poll.
[00:52:11] Our Club 121 was a big part of organizing
[00:52:14] for see you at the poll.
[00:52:15] And if you, if a kid came to Club 121,
[00:52:18] the point, the intention,
[00:52:21] the thing that we wanted was for that kid to get saved.
[00:52:26] For that kid to be...
[00:52:28] And to be like everyone else in that club.
[00:52:30] And be like everyone and assimilate, right?
[00:52:33] We wanted and so Christians,
[00:52:36] their mindset is, oh, Prism Club,
[00:52:39] they're trying to get kids to be gay.
[00:52:42] They want kids when the reality is,
[00:52:44] no, that club just exists to welcome
[00:52:46] and accept whoever comes there
[00:52:49] in radical acceptance.
[00:52:52] That you can be here,
[00:52:53] this is a place for you,
[00:52:54] this is a community that you can exist in
[00:52:56] and be a part of no matter what.
[00:52:58] You don't have a letter in our alphabet.
[00:53:00] We'll make one up.
[00:53:01] We want...
[00:53:02] And people get mad.
[00:53:03] They're like, how many letters are we going to add?
[00:53:05] Until everyone's included.
[00:53:06] LGBTQ plus two asks,
[00:53:09] we're going to add as many letters as it takes
[00:53:11] because we are inclusive
[00:53:12] of a broader community.
[00:53:14] We're not trying to make anybody look exactly the way
[00:53:17] that we look.
[00:53:18] And I think that that's the threatening thing.
[00:53:20] That's what's terrifying to Christians,
[00:53:22] is they're thinking about it
[00:53:24] through their framework and their paradigm.
[00:53:26] That's so true.
[00:53:27] That is so true.
[00:53:28] Because if their approach to life
[00:53:30] is let's convert people,
[00:53:31] then they're going to assume
[00:53:33] that other people's approach to life
[00:53:34] is let's convert people.
[00:53:36] Yeah, exactly.
[00:53:37] That's powerful.
[00:53:39] Well, I know we've wandered around in this conversation
[00:53:42] and I also want to just leave it open.
[00:53:45] We have audio notes that we received our first audio note.
[00:53:51] Yes!
[00:53:52] How exciting is this?
[00:53:53] I'm excited.
[00:53:54] We've been saying it,
[00:53:55] and it was so lovely to hear.
[00:53:57] Jared, friend of the pod,
[00:53:59] send in an audio note.
[00:54:01] And along those lines,
[00:54:03] we would love to hear your thoughts
[00:54:05] because while we've had this wandering conversation,
[00:54:07] I know we haven't touched on every single subject
[00:54:10] that every single on ramp
[00:54:12] that was people's way that they kind of got into this space.
[00:54:16] And we would love to hear from you all,
[00:54:18] and we'd love to do more episodes
[00:54:21] where we can engage with our listeners
[00:54:23] to say, hey, this is, you know,
[00:54:25] see what your reactions are, your thoughts,
[00:54:27] your questions because we love dialogue
[00:54:29] and we love having conversations.
[00:54:31] So feel free to shoot us an email
[00:54:34] at hostsatthereafterpod.com
[00:54:36] with an audio note.
[00:54:37] If you just take a voice note on your phone,
[00:54:39] you can just send that in.
[00:54:40] Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:41] And just include in there whether you would be comfortable
[00:54:44] if you just want to share it with us.
[00:54:46] We'd love that.
[00:54:47] If you're comfortable with us sharing it on air,
[00:54:49] we're going to have to start having a little bit of section
[00:54:52] for sharing some of the feedback we're getting
[00:54:54] from people who are listening
[00:54:56] because we want to include those voices.
[00:54:58] So I guess let's just jump to that little note
[00:55:01] from Jared and then we'll jump back
[00:55:03] to close up the show.
[00:55:06] Hi, Coral and Megan.
[00:55:07] It's your buddy Jared.
[00:55:08] Just finished listening to the Flamie Grants episode
[00:55:11] and I absolutely loved it.
[00:55:12] It also motivated me to actually download
[00:55:15] Bible Belt Baby and I'm listening to that now
[00:55:17] and loving it.
[00:55:18] It's the first Christian music album
[00:55:20] I have bought in over a decade,
[00:55:22] so I hope Flamie loves that fact.
[00:55:24] Anyways, always love the show.
[00:55:25] Feel free to share this on the podcast if you want
[00:55:28] and I will keep on listening.
[00:55:30] Love you both.
[00:55:31] Bye.
[00:55:34] All right.
[00:55:35] I was sitting here waiting the extent of time
[00:55:37] I thought that Jared was going to be talking
[00:55:39] and I was like, oh no, editing magic.
[00:55:41] We could just cut straight to it.
[00:55:43] I love it.
[00:55:44] You can tell I don't edit the show.
[00:55:46] I love that.
[00:55:47] And you know what I love about?
[00:55:48] Can I just since Jared was our first audio note?
[00:55:51] Yeah.
[00:55:52] I just say something I love about Jared.
[00:55:54] Absolutely.
[00:55:55] So Jared will tweet through our episodes
[00:55:57] and listen to our episodes.
[00:55:58] But one thing that Jared does that I really appreciate
[00:56:01] is he pushes back when he doesn't agree
[00:56:04] or if he thinks differently
[00:56:06] or if he wants to bring in another perspective.
[00:56:08] And that's just something I love about the space in general.
[00:56:11] But I especially appreciate that because as I've said before,
[00:56:15] we're kind of tired of one person having all the expertise
[00:56:19] or presenting and is having all of the knowledge
[00:56:21] and Corlan, I know we both don't want to be that.
[00:56:24] And so I just love that these conversations
[00:56:27] happen in community where people can say,
[00:56:29] hey, I see it a little bit differently
[00:56:31] and we can consider other perspectives.
[00:56:33] Yeah.
[00:56:34] So yeah, if you have a response to this episode
[00:56:37] or any episode feel free to send us a voice note.
[00:56:40] We'll try to include it in the show.
[00:56:43] And in closing,
[00:56:47] let's just I want to give a very specific
[00:56:50] and formal invite to anyone listening
[00:56:52] who wants to be at our event.
[00:56:54] We're having in February,
[00:56:55] the content warning event.
[00:56:56] If you haven't heard about it,
[00:56:57] we've referenced it a few times in this episode.
[00:56:59] We talked about it on past episodes.
[00:57:01] If you have not heard, we want to invite you.
[00:57:03] We'd love for you to be a part.
[00:57:05] February, Megan,
[00:57:07] is it on bad updates?
[00:57:09] What are the dates?
[00:57:11] It's February 17th and 18th.
[00:57:13] You can check out the information at content warning event.com.
[00:57:16] There's an in-person option.
[00:57:17] We'd love for you to come.
[00:57:18] But there's also a virtual live stream.
[00:57:20] If you can't make it to Portland,
[00:57:22] I know flights, housing, all that.
[00:57:25] Sign up for the virtual live stream
[00:57:27] because we are actually going to have people
[00:57:29] there facilitating some of our collaborators.
[00:57:32] We're going to rotate through to facilitate the conversation.
[00:57:35] If you have things you want to chime in
[00:57:37] and be part of the dialogue,
[00:57:39] we're trying to include you as much as possible.
[00:57:41] It's not just you're watching this from afar.
[00:57:44] No, we want you to be involved in this event.
[00:57:47] I know Torey and myself
[00:57:49] and Trans and Jelko and several people who are apart
[00:57:52] have said,
[00:57:53] we want to be interacting with the live,
[00:57:55] the online audience.
[00:57:56] And so you're going to get to interact with collaborators as well
[00:58:00] and not just disconnected, tuned in from the web.
[00:58:06] And if you can make it in person,
[00:58:08] it's going to be a really lovely time.
[00:58:10] We want to invite people.
[00:58:11] There are people who I would think
[00:58:13] would be not showing up to events
[00:58:15] unless they were on stage
[00:58:16] who have already decided to come and be apart.
[00:58:19] This is not a big stage
[00:58:23] and audience type of dynamic.
[00:58:25] This is going to be very conversational.
[00:58:27] So if you show up
[00:58:28] and you have something to say in the conversation,
[00:58:30] there's going to be space for that.
[00:58:32] And that's a big part of why we want to do this
[00:58:36] is to break down that barrier between who's behind
[00:58:40] and who's in front of the mic
[00:58:41] and realize that all of us are bringing something
[00:58:43] to this conversation.
[00:58:45] So yeah, more information, content warning event.com.
[00:58:49] Megan, where can people find you
[00:58:51] through Out the Web, connect with you
[00:58:53] in between this week and next week?
[00:58:57] I'm at the Pursuing Life on Twitter
[00:59:00] and Instagram also Threads sometimes,
[00:59:02] Barely Blue Sky.
[00:59:03] But occasionally, what about you, Corlan?
[00:59:06] Yeah, I'm all the places.
[00:59:08] I'm primarily Instagram is kind of where I'm hanging out most.
[00:59:11] There's a new app called LAPS
[00:59:13] that I really like that I've been hanging out on a lot.
[00:59:15] Of course there's a new app.
[00:59:16] There's a new app.
[00:59:17] There's a new app but it's my favorite.
[00:59:19] It's one of my favorite ones.
[00:59:20] So you can connect with me there.
[00:59:21] I'm Corlan Coffee all over the place.
[00:59:23] I'm the only one, so I always get the handles
[00:59:26] with the full name.
[00:59:28] Yeah, find me.
[00:59:30] And then find us.
[00:59:31] I hang out a lot and try to hang out more and more
[00:59:33] over on the Discord server
[00:59:35] which you can join by joining our Patreon.
[00:59:37] Patreon.com slash there after pod
[00:59:39] and joining that will get you access directly
[00:59:42] to the Patreon or to the Discord.
[00:59:45] That's been so fun.
[00:59:46] Yeah, so if you want to hang out with us over here
[00:59:49] that's a great way to do it as well.
[00:59:52] Thanks to everything at there after pod.com.
[00:59:56] Megan, anything else before we close up?
[01:00:00] I think that's it.
[01:00:02] Alrighty, until next time.
[01:00:04] Until next time.
