091 - Flamy Grant | The Shame-Slaying, Hip-Swaying, Singing-Songwriting Drag Queen

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.etham for more content. The Messogini and Peerdy Culture Weirdness that are kind of a hallmarks of these schools. I'm Scott O'Kamoto, author of Asian American Apostate, Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University,

[00:00:46] which tells my story of teaching English at an Evangelical School and realizing I didn't believe in God or the Bible anymore.

[00:00:54] I created Chapel Probation as a compliment to my book, but this podcast has become its own community of people who have stories of hurt and pain and stories of triumph during and after their time at Evangelical Schools.

[00:01:10] Some of the guests you've probably heard of, but most of them you probably haven't. But all the stories are an incredible examples of surviving Christian schools and finding ourselves. You can find Chapel Probation wherever you listen to podcasts and I hope you'll join us. All right. Okay.

[00:01:34] Welcome to The There After Podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change. We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:01:49] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a better wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism. We've discovered quite the opposite. There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:02:07] Come along as we explore the all-too-often uncharted experience of Evangelicalism evolving faith in the life of their after. All righty. Megan. Hi. Corlant. Welcome everyone. It's almost Thanksgiving. It is.

[00:02:37] It's a weird holiday that I feel like we just don't know what to do with anymore, but it's still on the calendar. And so we buy turkey and see people.

[00:02:48] It's nobody wants to celebrate the reason for this season and everyone's like the food, but it's like kind of like, but the genocide. It's it's weird. Yeah, but maybe take a minute to listen to a couple of your favorite podcasts while you have some time off work.

[00:03:07] That's way. Yeah, take advantage of the time. It's a short week which is always tough for me at work because it's like it's hard to like get motivated to do anything in the three day week. Cause you're like, oh we're going to be off soon. Yeah.

[00:03:20] Well, do it my best. It's so interesting because my kids were supposed to have wins day off and after their teachers went on strike at the beginning of the school year, they shortened their Thanksgiving break. They shortened their winter break.

[00:03:34] I was like, oh man, they needed that strike and I'm really glad for them, but I also feel like they kind of got a little bit of punishment there. Take your voice for the days off.

[00:03:44] That's right. I forget you guys are going through that because that's been just in your area up there. Well, in Portland, but it was on one. I don't know. I don't even know if it's back yet, but they were on one the Portland public for a while.

[00:03:57] Yeah, yeah. Well, I hope teachers get everything they deserve. I know they won't get everything they deserve because they deserve way more than they are even close to being given. Yeah. I'm definitely stand with them, but it's tough. It's tough for parents in those situations too.

[00:04:15] I know how it is with my kiddo out. I get the flexibility to kind of hybrid remote work, but not everyone has that and it can be really tough. So yeah. I could do a whole podcast about teaching. But yeah. It's time we talk education.

[00:04:32] I'm like, I have things I could say, but Megan could say them with way more intelligence. Well, it would be like therapy. But let's move on.

[00:04:42] I know we've mentioned the event that we have coming up, but I want to talk a little bit more about it just because I don't know about you, Coral, but I'm getting really excited.

[00:04:51] People are starting to text me like, I booked my flight and I'm head-not and I've seen some people sign up on the virtual side and I'm pumped. I was looking at flights last week and I didn't buy them and I should have. Yeah.

[00:05:06] And I'm sorry if you were life story of my life because I was like, wow, there was like non-shitty airline. Like this was not like spirit.

[00:05:12] This was like Alaska or something that that would had great deals and I was like, I got to buy these and then I totally forgot. So tonight after we get up this call, I'm going to buy my flights because I'm definitely going to be there.

[00:05:24] And it's going to be awesome. It's in February. Can you say the date? February. February. Okay. And one thing that I want to say because we, the price is $100 to come. It's our low price point. It'll build as the time goes on.

[00:05:43] But I do want to give a little bit of context about what that entails because as a community, we feel or as folks in our community and this space that we share as we've had conversations.

[00:05:58] It feels like there's a little bit of discomfort with being in events in church spaces. And so it was pretty important for us to rent out a venue that would accommodate us and could be a facility for us to use.

[00:06:11] That was just kind of a, for lack of a better term, agnostic space who like not tied to like very, you know, specific affiliation. And so part of that class goes to that. Our collaborators are getting a small stipend, but they're paying for travel.

[00:06:26] They're paying for to come out. And so I just wanted to kind of put out there that this is not an event where we're trying to bank a big, big profit from.

[00:06:38] It's just, we put a price on there that would cover the cost of putting on the event of having the venue and also maybe pulling in some karaoke as part of it and just piecing together all of what we need for the weekend.

[00:06:52] And then hoping that if that price has barriers that that virtual option to because we do know travel and housing isn't something that everyone can come out and do.

[00:07:02] But we have that virtual option because we want as many people that want to be a part of this to be able to access the space and join in and jump in. So I think cited about that.

[00:07:12] The cost to the event content warning event dot com you can go check out the cost as many as that like up through December.

[00:07:21] It's the lowest price and then it goes up a little bit as prosecutors like myself wait to buy tickets. This is this is cost that we're all sharing we're all tipping in to create the event. It is not a for profit right so no one's profiting profiting.

[00:07:39] No one's profiting of this event. This is not a making money thing but as Megan said having a venue having some of the things that we are going to provide while we're all there making sure that it's big enough for everyone to be safe and and space making sure that we have spaces that people can go and have conversation making sure that.

[00:08:03] It can be virtual and we can make it accessible for those who can't attend in person all of those things cost money. And so that's where the money comes in but we just want to be very clear transparent upfront about that.

[00:08:18] And we really want to passually invite everyone who listens to the podcast and who knows you know some of the folks that are organizing and collaborating on this event.

[00:08:30] We want you to come and hang out with us. I've talked to Megan some about like so many of the people that I'm inviting are also creators in this space because that's so many of my friends are people who are also creating so many of the people who listen to this podcast.

[00:08:49] You have blogs, you have podcasts, you have your put it creating content on Instagram whatever it might be.

[00:08:55] If you have a Twitter profile, you're your creator. Yeah and it's not to say that that you have to be a creator to attend this event but we really want to invite people to come and join in the conversation who feel like they might have something to say.

[00:09:12] Even though they're not build on the website, right? Like because this is not about coming and sitting at the feet of anybody. This is about coming in like building community having relationship conversations and learning from each other and getting to know each other.

[00:09:28] So I just want to make sure that it's framed in that way and that anybody who's checking it out sees it through a little bit of a different lens like we intend versus it being seen as like some sort of conference.

[00:09:41] Well, yeah and I think just like in our clubhouse discussions, I always we always like throw out a question and then the discussion just goes in all different directions.

[00:09:50] And everyone that joins in that conversation is what shapes the discussion and I really feel like this is going to be an event where the people who attend are going to take part in what that event looks like.

[00:10:03] And that's what I mean, that you're going to have like forced participation in anything because I do have my introverted friends that are like, can I just come in sequitaly and just kind of listen and learn in soak up knowledge. Yes, you absolutely if that's your jam, you can do that.

[00:10:17] But we really want to make this more of a collaborative setting where I like to instead of saying attendees, I like to say participants because I feel like there's opportunities for discussion and to hear from folks that are coming.

[00:10:30] So yeah, I think I think that's a great great framing and if you've seen if you follow Chrissy Strup on any of the social social social socials she just put out an interview that her and I did about this event in about some of the shame based stuff that's coming out and evangelicalism and kind of healing from that and moving forward.

[00:10:51] And so we talked a lot about that context behind this event too. Speaking of slang shame. Yeah, I know we have anything else before I think it's a great intro into who we get hang out with today on the pod.

[00:11:11] I know I'm so excited. I love to this interview. Yeah, I let's just jive in. I'm the James Lane hips.

[00:11:18] It's funny. We were like, should we talk about the conversation around spanking that's been going on and Twitter? And then we were like, let's not let's put it up.

[00:11:27] We just don't and I love this. Let's just let's just jump into the interview because why spend time in that shit right? Let's just go let's just jump in. Let's jump in. Let's jump in. We've got a bit.

[00:11:39] We've got flaming ran on the show today and it was such a lovely conversation. She really needs no introduction, but if you have not yet heard of flaming we're going to be so excited to introduce you to her today through this interview. Let's dive in.

[00:12:02] All right. Another episode of the thereafter podcast. Of course, Megan's here. I'm Cortland in case you don't know what show you listening to. And I'm not the only one here. We have fleamy grants today. Oh my gosh. I hate her get her off his show. Oh my.

[00:12:23] It's so good to have you here. So excited. Yes. I'm so happy to be here.

[00:12:28] It's been, I've had a delightful time watching all from afar these many years and then just got to meet you both recently in person. And now here we are finally doing our little chat.

[00:12:38] I know and I have complaints about our meeting because I wanted to buy a vinyl from you and you had just sold your very last one. I thought Megan was going to hunt someone down in the parking lot. She was like somebody's got one here.

[00:12:53] I'm going to find it. Well, I so I do have there's a new batch coming in. They will be here till January unfortunately, but they are coming. So I will set one aside for you so that we can make sure that you get it. Perfect.

[00:13:10] Well, before we kind of dive into all the things I would love for you to give our listeners just a little bit of context of you know your upbringing kind of the what flavor of evangelicalism were you raised in the quick and dirty on how the audience story live my favorite guide.

[00:13:33] Oh boy. So, technically my flavor was called a plinith brethren but we're not really known by that name out in the wild. If you see our churches I say our like I'm still involved. I have not been there in 20 years.

[00:13:51] If you see these churches in the wild they're typically called like a Bible Chapel or a gospel chapel. Like that's the name on the sign.

[00:13:58] But it's a it's a very it's about as fundamentalist as you get before you you know completely remove yourself from society and become omnisch I guess I don't know at the next step would be it's it's very patriarchal women don't speak in church they cover their hair

[00:14:18] It's you know like much of evangelicalism it's called like in terms of how much pressure is put on to conform and the consequences for not conforming are pretty dire in terms of being basically

[00:14:37] evicted from fellowship within the community kind of things so it's it's it's just that you know just other people from that so I feel like we've had one other person at least on the podcast that came from

[00:14:49] Pliment Brethren and I can't remember if it was Matthew Paul Turner or if it was that's the name that's coming to mind but I don't know if you feel like I feel like I would know if Matthew Paul Turner or

[00:15:00] I'm gonna have to go back and read listen this is where transcribing all our episodes would be wonderful because I could just type it in and fight it.

[00:15:07] Right, just to assert that I'm feel like we may be one of the person but it's it's got to be pretty small.

[00:15:12] It's yeah I meet them rarely very rarely but in fact actually I was just under showing Seattle and I was talking about this in front of everybody and because you know who comes to talk about there.

[00:15:24] I just trauma in front of a room full of people and somebody in the front row I was like you know has anybody ever heard of this and I of course I expected nothing because no one ever raises their hand in somebody in the front row is like oh yeah.

[00:15:37] I was closed closed assemblies which there were open assemblies and closed assemblies open assembly was what I was which is technically the more like.

[00:15:49] What's the word not progressive but like it is like the delineation between like in what is it Southern Baptist and then the IFB kind of.

[00:15:59] Yeah like it's all bad right it's all very bad like but we we were open in that like anybody could still come to our meetings and take the Lord supper take communion.

[00:16:12] As long as they you know professed to be Christian and you know met certain criteria or whatever but closed assemblies you like it was exclusive just like.

[00:16:20] It is very exclusive yeah so I don't even know what those were like because I didn't go to them growing up so.

[00:16:26] The fact that I met not only met someone else who was put with brethren but like was from the board conservative version of put with brethren I was like what crazy. The world is small. So I'm going to think start to shift. My next question.

[00:16:41] Let's see last week I think actually I it's a good answer to good answer.

[00:16:48] Oh my word I so yeah I started to realize I think in college that my church world was weird because I would bring friends home you know from college and take them to my church and they would be.

[00:17:06] You know that they would leave with a traumatized look in their face and I was like what it's just this is normal right isn't everybody doing this. And so I honestly after I left for college I never went back like full time to that to that church.

[00:17:24] I college was my gateway into like ever so slightly more progressive theology and thinking and just other denominations in general.

[00:17:36] I've I tabled in Presbyterianism in college and then while and then I moved to I know just such a rubble and then I moved to Reno Nevada for a couple years where I found my first like non-denominational evangelical church.

[00:17:53] And I was on staff there for a couple years and then in 2006 moved to San Diego with a team of people from that church to plant a new church in the he then ungodly city of San Diego that desperately needed our our missions work.

[00:18:14] And yeah from there it was just kind of a decade of coming out coming to terms with who I am. You know finally digging into the Bible for myself and discovering that you know maybe I'm not condemned to an eternity of torture for liking boys and.

[00:18:38] But I would say well let's say probably 10 years ago I was I found myself in like fully out dating and. Like looking for like the progressive version of Christian maybe what I found and have had kind of been involved in ever since okay.

[00:18:58] Tell us you know tell us about the birth of of Flamie and how that started. I would say. She was born in pandemic because she really was but honestly she's been with me my whole life I just.

[00:19:15] You know I I have memories of getting in trouble for getting into my mom's makeup and pulling her clothes out of her closet and trying to play dress up in them as a kid. So I suppressed those impulses for about 35 years.

[00:19:35] Out of you know the the usual reason reasons shame and fear of punishment and fear of. Breaking God's commands and breaking my family's heart and all of that stuff so but when pandemic finally did come around I had gone out in drag for the first time for real.

[00:19:57] Halloween of 2019 so it's a Halloween queen and then I was a quarantine point because quarantine you know. I was isolating at home or sheltering in place or whatever we call it I can't remember. Started you know that that that March and that was.

[00:20:16] I had I had time you know like we all had all kinds of time that just had not previously existed because we filled our time by going out and being places and seeing people and we couldn't do this things.

[00:20:29] So I started messing around with makeup and watched a whole bunch of YouTube makeup tutorials and. Did a live stream during pandemic with my housemates who are also musicians and that's where flaming kind of was born and like. Developed. I developed her online and.

[00:20:52] It was it just started as literally the same the same way I would have done it as a kid which was just following impulses and following instincts and. Doing something that made me feel really good and doing it for me you know like I was in my bedroom.

[00:21:07] I was in my bedroom with my mirror and I had at the time I had the Instagram account I had saved when I came up with the name I like went and saved the Instagram account the handle because I was like oh that's good just in case I ever use it.

[00:21:19] But it was on pride it I didn't even tell my husband about it like I would post little pictures of my terrible. My terrible makeup that I'm sure are still there if you scroll all the way to the beginning. Yeah, you know over time started to.

[00:21:35] Interact with people online and I had a couple viral videos on TikTok and that was when I realized oh all of this. In our child work because that's really what it was for me. It is that's healing me and giving me hope and. You know, filling my days.

[00:21:56] It seems to have the power that capacity to do that same thing for other people and because that was the response it was like people would would come on my videos and be like oh my gosh this makes me feel seen and safe and held and happy and.

[00:22:10] So I had a little. A little switch flipped you know and I was like oh maybe there's more to this than just me hanging out in my bedroom maybe there's something for me to do with this maybe there's a ministry because.

[00:22:25] You know the church girls we are always looking for our ministry. Right. The Lord is open to door. Well, and I'm curious too because it's so much more than just.

[00:22:37] I mean, it's style and makeup and so like it's such a performance but also there's songwriting such beautiful songwriting that's part of everything and and I and I got to experience that when you performed at the. I am, I'm going to have the opportunity to get to you.

[00:22:54] So, I'm going to have that opportunity to be here with you because I'm going to have that opportunity to be here with you because I would love to hear a little bit about how that's evolved too because it's super clear that.

[00:23:04] You have so much talent as a songwriter and putting that all together in your performance. It's like it's like the whole package right and so I'm curious just how.

[00:23:12] How you've evolved in in that because your song, your songwriting has exploded just recently and I want to get to a little bit more of some of the recent events but I'm just curious like when you started.

[00:23:21] Did it start that way? Were you writing your own music? Were you covering songs and just kind of I'm just curious like how that how that journey progressed.

[00:23:30] Yeah, it's it was not it was never like planned or foreseen, you know, it's just I mean I've been a songwriter since I was nine I wrote my first song, you know, it's it was a little worship song to Jesus when I was nine years old and and I've been writing ever since and I've been in a couple bands prior to flamey and I did it had a little solo.

[00:23:48] Solo not I wouldn't call it a career solo but I put out a couple albums under my my name and and then I've written music for church for years and years as a worship leader. So that's always been a part of my creative output and really where I go to like theorize myself is with in songwriting and.

[00:24:09] But even when I started doing flamey like it never occurred to me to bring my music into her voice or have her sing songs like we were just doing cover songs.

[00:24:20] Those early days of pandemic we would every Thursday night we call it he even happy hour because that was a name of my podcast which is not active anymore but.

[00:24:29] We call it he then happy hour and we we sing anywhere from like 15 to 20 cover songs every Thursday night just to 30 people who livestream with us on the internet and that's how we got through the the those dark dark days.

[00:24:46] But yeah at some point within that first year. I honestly couldn't even pinpoint when it was or what it was I mean one thing that did happen was I went to wild goose and 21 I think whatever their first year back was.

[00:25:04] And we took basically took our even happy hours show there and we were going to be on one of the little smaller stages or whatever but then somebody canceled on the main stage so we got we got the lucky boot up to the main stage and.

[00:25:22] So I was in drag we had a band and we were just singing mostly our cover songs on. But like we did we didn't make a cover song we did testify to love.

[00:25:33] At wild goose and and yeah people came up to me and it was just a whole it felt like a whole thing that that was happening and.

[00:25:46] Somewhere along the way I just I got the brilliant idea to like either write songs inflame these voice or I think probably initially I just started pulling from my own catalog of songs.

[00:25:58] And I was just a songwriting and finding songs that actually felt like they were probably her voice all along you know I just didn't know she was with me subconsciously.

[00:26:10] And before I knew it we had a full record I was Bible belt baby is the first record and it was just supposed to be like a five song EP just a acoustic thing that my house mate Ben who.

[00:26:25] Was in that he that those he then happy our days with me. He's a music producer as well as an artist himself and I was like hey would you help me produce a little EP for flaming and we ran a kickstarter that did.

[00:26:37] Better than I anticipated and I was able to then like pay for a full album so I really did like go back in my repertoire and because I was like I don't have 10 songs like written in flaming voice so I pulled these songs from as far back as 2014.

[00:26:52] And I was like wow she really has been speaking for a long time. I just didn't know I hadn't had a matter yet and.

[00:27:03] I don't know the rest has just been gangbusters ever since I'm just I I mean that's definitely my favorite way to right now is in flaming voice it felt like it opened up a whole new. Just a whole new like posture and perspective and.

[00:27:22] Way to say things that I didn't like you know maybe Matthew wouldn't sing that but flaming sure is how can so it's it's been really fun.

[00:27:31] So I want to get into like we want to get I want to get into like two aspects of the flaming the Bible belt baby like a sentient to what it has become the phenomenon I guess I would say that is Bible belt baby.

[00:27:45] I have two aspects that one being one being the outrage that some have. Presented I call it fan behavior. It is.

[00:28:03] You know, and which I would say I call I still really that from similar grace ball drudge is always like this is fan behavior that's like they're good to think. And so I want to talk about that.

[00:28:16] I also want to talk about like the way in which the music is deeply impacted a lot of people in a positive way. Megan talks about seeing you perform at well at not well goose at the algebra camp when we got to meet and hang out with you.

[00:28:30] And I can like say that we were both like trying to like she was crying I was trying to keep her quiet. I was crying she was like.

[00:28:39] You're so much personal impact that happens and that is been a part of of the experience of of flaming so can you talk a little bit about both sides of that so which either one you want to start on the the route rage responses and also just the way that people connect with your music and how you've experienced that as a songwriter and creator.

[00:29:03] Yeah, it's I mean it is a feel like it's the difference between like it's like the kinship response versus the like angry stranger response.

[00:29:12] I don't know what to call the outrage but the kinship it like that is what happened with I think some of the those TikTok videos that went viral early on a pandemic where I was just like. I mean it was just for me it was a realization that.

[00:29:27] Drag the power of drag you know and and and I've always I've known my whole life about the power of songwriting because that's I mean again that's my language just that's how I communicate it's my art form and it's also the art I love to consume you know I love good songwriting and that's.

[00:29:45] I know what it's done for me in my growth and my journey when I found really just songs that articulate what I'm going through or where I want to be so. I think it was once I recognize that drag has similar.

[00:30:04] Capacity you know to impact people it just made sense to yeah put them together and. It's my favorite thing you know when somebody.

[00:30:16] You know actually my favorite favorite thing is when somebody's like a fan of drag and they they like find out about me or whenever and they're like oh like here's this fun can't be like Christian queen.

[00:30:27] And then they like get to hear the music and they're like oh like.

[00:30:32] You're actual songwriter like not yeah like it's not all a gimmick per se and not to that's not to to my own horn or in any way or anything but I mean I am that's like I said I've been I've been doing songwriting much longer than drag so I should be a better songwriter than a drag performer let's let's put it that way but so it's nice when that happens and.

[00:30:54] And I think there's something powerful in. Being able to. Go between extremes right like the extreme camp the extreme like absurdity that is drag. And then to also like swing right back into let's go to this really like.

[00:31:14] Deeply emotional let's let's tell a deeply emotional traumatic story through song and. Let's let's like revel in our melancholy together because that is that's one of the ways that we heal as human beings right as by revisiting and reimagining and.

[00:31:34] Experiencing our trauma in not only in a new light but also with people who get it and so I love that about the whole about everything that I do I love watch.

[00:31:47] You can see it happens sometimes in the audience like you can like that's what I love watching them mood kind of like have that shift and people have that realization that like oh we're we're feeling things now.

[00:31:59] When I love I don't know I the style in which you performed that night with the kind of in the round like that whole piece I've been to the blue bird cafe and Nashville and so that is resonated deeply with me but one of the things that I'm curious about.

[00:32:15] As someone who's been in worship leader just your relationship to worship music and and even maybe see some music but I will say that for me.

[00:32:24] It was when I started deconstructing I was I was a avid fan like I in college I started with the passion CDs right and then I was like moved on to Hillsong and Bethel and then watching kind of the political landscape and really starting to feel like.

[00:32:41] So some of the people behind this worship music are like the people that are also behind the interaction on jesus right and it like I really like because I am.

[00:32:52] I just had to kind of walk away from a lot of that worship music that I was like listening to while I ran and kind of carried me through some hard times and so when I see worship music that I guess is.

[00:33:07] Maybe it's the way like it just it's like all the all the sudden I enter into this space where I can I can connect with my spirituality in a new way that I don't have to worry about like are these lyrics going to.

[00:33:20] I believe me into this toxic theological place that I'm shutting you know all these things that I just you know have never really unpacked or sat deeply with for a long time and so I'm curious like what has that.

[00:33:33] I mean like for you some of that has been a worship leader and then now your your music is still has an element of spirituality but it's moved in such a different direction and how has that been.

[00:33:45] Oh this that yeah this is I love this question um so I'm probably the least worshipy worship leader to ever worship lead right like I.

[00:33:55] I mean the last time I was really into worship music was like how great as our God from Chris Tomlin like that was probably the last. I'm sorry I hate it.

[00:34:32] I mean we had Margaret Becker we had Jennifer Nap we had Susan Ashton we had out of the gray you know like we had such good song writer small Tom poets I don't know if they were actually good song writers but they were song writers.

[00:34:53] I like we just had like bands that wrote their own songs and artists that told their own stories through the music right beboh Norman come on yeah and.

[00:35:04] I mean Megan Megan's not in her head along Megan like tries to play like she's not like she's got all the wow CD she was at cornerstone every year.

[00:35:12] Like yeah I can I just I have this look this and I know you're in the middle of answer to question, but my high school boyfriend burned a bebo Norman CD for me and blurred out the image on the front because he was so attractive that I really less after beboh Norman.

[00:35:29] I mean I would have so like yeah I did it was beboh Norman and clay cross do you remember play cross. I would remember play cross yeah go go look him up look up clay cross time to believe that was the record he's posing like. I like.

[00:35:48] Sultry and he's got this looked back here it's great um anyway uh all that to say I loved that stuff I loved getting to know the artists that I was listening to and and you do that by because they tell their stories and they get vulnerable worship music is not that it's like.

[00:36:03] Like the antifacist of that it's this you know vertically oriented song writing that tells you nothing about yourself or who you are or you know nothing good anyway I'm a wretched like thank goodness there's a. You know interposed.

[00:36:20] Saviour to you know give me access to God I just it just. Oh I just hate it so much anyway um. Have I gotten that point across you I'm feeling.

[00:36:35] So and that is unfortunately like the bulk of CCM now that's pretty much what you're going to find on contemporary Christian music charts now is just worship albums and.

[00:36:47] So as a worship leader you know I was not listening to especially the past decade I was not listening to like. Worship music that was coming out and people would come to me and be like oh my gosh can we please do this worship song.

[00:36:59] At church and you know I was it was a very progressive inclusive affirming church in San Diego and I I would listen to it and I'd like no that's awful we're not doing that we're going to do pink songs instead we're going to do this dolly song that has something to say we're going to do like.

[00:37:16] You know the greatest showman soundtrack like anything I could bring into Sunday mornings that you know was just not like. I don't know your love is extravagant over and over again you know I just needed. I needed music that was going to work for me and I had.

[00:37:39] I was the person with power in that scenario so I was able to like make those decisions and I think. I feel pretty confident that like art church was good with it and on board and people seem to like.

[00:37:50] I mean I don't know they didn't kick me out of my volunteer worship leader position for eight and a half years so I assume they liked it.

[00:37:59] Anyway all that to say when I when I finished putting together Bible Bell baby and like kind of stood back and looked at it as a whole.

[00:38:07] All 10 songs I was like this feels so much like a 90's CCM record to me like it's telling a spiritual journey it's telling.

[00:38:16] It's talking about a salvation it's not the salvation you know that evangelicals want to talk about but it was how I would save from evangelicalism basically.

[00:38:25] And it's just this like it's it's got its joyful like exuberant like moments of like victory and like overcoming and then it has like it goes to the dark night of the soul too which is everything I loved in a record and so that's kind of why I was like yeah this is a CCM record at least as defined in 1998 and I know it's not 1998 anymore but I'm still going to release this in that in that Christian genre.

[00:38:50] And so yeah my relationship to to worship music is that like the couple songs on there good day and I am not ashamed are both songs that I did write for our church before it but put like pre flaming and we've we've sang those in our church study do have that feel of like a congregational sing along thing.

[00:39:17] But I guess good day is probably comes comes the closest to like matching the vibe of worship music today but even it has kind of it's not vertical right it's more like.

[00:39:30] And horizontal as can I it's like the lyrics are talking to your fellow like Christians or your fellow people in church with you and like that. Like trying to call out a better path forward together and you know envisioning a future where everyone is included and people aren't.

[00:39:53] traumatized for being who they are in church so I would say I would say it's music that put you in your body versus takes you out of your body right like.

[00:40:03] It's I love that it's putting you it's connecting you with the experience of being here and in your body and not trying to take you somewhere else.

[00:40:11] Oh, I'm taking that to the bank. I love that it's it's so true and I have just I've described it before as being.

[00:40:19] Yeah, like not not asking the congregation to look up and look vertical but to look within and maybe to look around as well and like connect to other hearts and souls in the room.

[00:40:30] So yeah, I love that it makes you it puts you in your body as opposed to taking you out. I love it. Thanks. It explains why we were like having therapy. We were having an experience.

[00:40:41] Megadennai in the back aisle of the church watching you play and I think was it was being in a church too like that whole weekend when we started. Megadennai was like this is in a church.

[00:40:53] Like we didn't think it was and then we were both like, how are we going to do? We're just been all week in here in this church. Because it's called the venue is called the venues.

[00:41:04] So I didn't thought that too. I was like, oh, it's going to be some cool hip.

[00:41:07] No, no, it was a church which is it was awesome but like there was a lot of reclaiming happening for us in that experience, which which ties right in to what you're doing and I don't want to spend a ton of time.

[00:41:22] I do want to just highlight the outrage. I want to highlight that a little bit because I think it's important to talk about, but I don't want to make that the point.

[00:41:31] But I think it's an important piece along the way because I love to see how the Lord uses what was intended freeful for good. That was said, time and cheeky.

[00:41:43] We're at the point is that every at the point me episode where we talk about showing point is that would we got to be that out. Hold on, no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, talk a little bit about that whole thing.

[00:41:57] Gosh, it's so funny to me still that I don't know the further away I get from that mindset. The harder it is for me to understand although I actually, you know, I can remember, you know, also thinking, looking at the world through that lens.

[00:42:19] But it's really hard to understand the impulse to be so angry at other people's joy and expression and just being themselves, right? It's such a strange response to me. But that is the response very frequently.

[00:42:38] And you know, we know this not even just from my story, but just in general in America right now there are so many people who have watched on to drag and to trans folks as just this like,

[00:42:49] saying that they can like point two as being the source of everything they think is wrong in the world and or a symptom at least of everything that they think is wrong in the world. So yeah, I've gotten my fair share.

[00:43:03] Sean Foit was kind of the first big one over the summer. I had the delightful privilege and pleasure of playing Derek Webb's album release show in Nashville and took a picture with him and Tiffany from Plum and Jen Nap was there.

[00:43:21] So the four of us is like when I posted it, I said one of these things is not like you're not like the other or one of these things is not a 90s Christian rock star like the others.

[00:43:32] And the picture made it made the rounds I guess and gotten front of Sean and he wanted to say this is he said, this is the end goal of deconstruction, you know, a drag queen collaborating with a Christian artist which just shows how much research he did because technically in that scenario, I was the Christian artist and Derek Webb is not anymore.

[00:43:55] I mean, if we're just going to get technical about it, but whatever he said, these are truly the last days or something like that and I was like oh and and goal.

[00:44:06] No baby, we're this we're just getting started with this and so then he came back and said well it's a good thing no one listens to you or knows who you are or whatever.

[00:44:16] And so Derek and Tiffany and Jen and I were all kind of texting on a thread together while this was all going down and Derek was like, like he's kind of 100,000 followers or whatever it is on Twitter, like you could really take this to the bank.

[00:44:29] You could really like use this to your favor like how can we and I was like okay well, I mean I have a he's a worship leader and for those of you listening, I'm using air quotes. He's a.

[00:44:43] He shons a worship leader and I was like I have a what is technically a worship song because we it was written for a church and we're saying in a church on my album that has already been out for 10 months let's just see let's see what happens if you know and I was definitely inspired by somewhere as well and seeing what somewhere had done and going I think at this point they gone to the top of the Christian charts twice already.

[00:45:05] So I knew it was possible with enough of an online support and but you know, somewhere fan base was much bigger than mine at that point. So it was it felt like a.

[00:45:18] A gamble rolling the dice and but I was like let's just go let's go on to take talk and make this video and just let people know what's happening that there's this like mega self described mega worship leader.

[00:45:31] Who is kind of like you know just being it a real. Real pill.

[00:45:38] And and when it be nice yeah being a real fight and wouldn't it be nice if we could see a drag queen on the Christian charts like what would look what kind of message with that send in terms of representation that might be a cool thing.

[00:45:54] And I you know like I said I thought it was a role of the dice I was like this could really flop I could look real stupid tomorrow morning but.

[00:46:01] People came through and next morning when I woke up it was already at number four the songs at number four and then by the end of the day it had hit number one and. So ever since then that the hate from the.

[00:46:18] Not just like the general like internet hate but like the big backlash stuff that you guys are talking about like the Greg locks and the. Matt Walsh is you know like it's that that level of.

[00:46:29] Um conservative eyeballs on what I'm doing and so it's they're they mad they really mad I or big mad that's what the kids say right. I love that that because I hadn't had iTunes on my phone and downloaded iTunes to buy that single and then that album.

[00:46:49] I think it was I think you and everyone else like it was just like we were all like how do I do this.

[00:46:54] And the last I the last time that I had iTunes on my phone the only thing I had on there that I had ever was the YouTube album that was like forcefully. I was like I'm not surprised upon us.

[00:47:05] So anytime I remember get into my car and hooked to Bluetooth if I didn't have Spotify open it would play you to and now if I get in my car and I don't has Spotify open it plays for me grant because you're higher in the alphabet so you.

[00:47:18] Yeah, I'm going to start with a lot of people that are on in my car when I hooked to Bluetooth unprepared and it's great and I'm grateful for it. It's amazing. Well thank you so much for doing going that extra mile to download iTunes.

[00:47:33] I'm curious because and I and it's now it's connecting for me because having somebody like Sean Foit and the I guess fan base follow or base whatever base goes after him be the people that he kind of sends your way.

[00:47:49] Make sense for the types of comments that I see sometimes on your posts, but I'm curious as an artist and as a creator and I ask similar questions like this to other people that have come on the podcast but.

[00:48:03] What is it like to not to be able to do your work in your art and create be creative but also always have to be advocating for to be seen and to be heard and for yourself and for for drag and and it's like okay, like could do you ever just think can I just put on an album please and not have to have this big battle you know.

[00:48:29] I've said that exactly to so many of my close friends and like why does every day have to be like why does my existence mean I have to be an activist and an advocate and all of that stuff and.

[00:48:44] I'm more than happy to do it because I do feel like I'm actually pretty well suited for it. It's. I don't know, I know, I'm an any grandma if we're still talking any grandma.

[00:49:00] And so I just have that kind of like tough Lonnie personality where if I don't know you like you can say whatever you can talk all kinds of shit about me. I do not care.

[00:49:12] If somebody I know like wants to critique me then I will crumble but if I don't know who you are, it just it really does is you know I'm jinx monster and water off a dx back and. But yeah, it's it's exhausting it's exhausting work and it's.

[00:49:33] I've had to recalibrate a lot over the past few months as I've learned how to navigate it because I used to get it on a on a small scale right and I would have fun with it. I really would like it.

[00:49:44] I was part of my daily practice to like go in and like. Troll the trolls and I've always I've always had a good time with that but then when it became you know when it was Greg locked doing it and like all of.

[00:50:00] And when when people of that who have that much of a following then inspire their hundreds of or tens or whatever tens of thousands of people that like.

[00:50:11] It got overwhelming and I was like and I was still behaving the same way I was when I was you know getting two comments a day or like whatever.

[00:50:21] So I was still trying to engage with it and I finally got to the point where I was like and this has just been in the past couple months or I I was like I have in my comments. Let's say there's a hundred comments.

[00:50:34] 98 of them are you know wonderful like like people who are doing the my gosh your music makes me feel seen and safe and I love what you're doing and I support you and I think it's great and then like the two two people are coming for me but I was spending my time on those two people like trying to.

[00:50:56] You know get my dig in and I look at it as like I want other people to see when I interact with the trolls that the trolls don't have power right like I want to I want to take the wind out of their sales like deflate their balloon and just be like this is.

[00:51:15] I think these people are silly and we don't need to pay them any attention while I'm paying them attention right so I've had to just kind of think about that a lot for myself and be like I would I need to shift my focus and like.

[00:51:31] I think it's a great way to create more with the people who are connecting with what I'm doing and less with the people who are coming for it. And I know that I feel like that's made a big difference for me personally.

[00:51:43] Over the past few weeks I because I really was getting I'm tough on but it doesn't mean that your mental health doesn't take a little bit of a nose dive when you spend all day. That type of anger and and discussed for who you are.

[00:52:05] So I don't know that's been my personal journey with it like more more blocking less interacting and then just making sure that.

[00:52:18] I'm taking to heart all the good comments because they're there every day and it and that off the DMs the emails I get from people who just tell me there.

[00:52:29] It's a lot of trauma dumping I'm not gonna lie like that comes that comes with the territory but you know when I'm in the headspace to receive it it's so meaningful to hear people stories and. I know that the whole point of what I do is like.

[00:52:50] It is yeah, I mean I call myself the shame slang hip slang singing songwriting track Queen right like slang shame for me is it like that's the mission right there there's no good purpose for shame it doesn't serve us in any way.

[00:53:04] I'm only serves to disconnect us and isolate us and make us feel alone in what we're going through and. So any chance I get to like see. Shame shrink a little bit like I love it. That's what I'm here for.

[00:53:25] Yeah, yeah I want to I know we're not quite to the end here but we're coming towards it and I want you to talk a little bit about the.

[00:53:33] The next project because I as a proud and excited backer of your incoming project would like for others to join I know I assumed you just launched this and I assumed that we were going to be like.

[00:53:49] Help flame you get to her goal and of course in like 24 hours you blew it out of the water but there's still more to go and more people can join with you so would you talk a little bit about that. Yeah I mean.

[00:54:05] I thought that too I've done a few I've done a few kick starters in my day and they have always been nail buyers you know and like just kind of.

[00:54:14] Clowing to the finish line trying to make sure you hit that goal because if you're not familiar with kick starter it's an all or nothing model so you either hit your goal you get people to pledge enough money to meet your goal.

[00:54:28] By the end of whatever your deadline is or if you don't then nobody gets charged and you make no money and your project is dead in the water so.

[00:54:38] I had you know I had geared up I'm good at kick starters like I every one I've ever done has been successful.

[00:54:46] I was also a fundraiser in my day job for years and years I worked non profit fundraising and development so like it's a world I know and.

[00:54:57] But it's exhausting and it is all consuming and a kick starter really does become your life for the month that you're running it and so I was. I was prepared to spend my my November and half of my December doing that.

[00:55:11] Like basically that that was going to be my holidays this year right and. I got I just feel like it's been I feel like I got a month of my life back and it's so insanely heartening and.

[00:55:26] And I still don't know what to make of it but yeah it got it got funded and I it was less than 48 or maybe it's 48 hours and change or something it was like it wasn't it wasn't three full days and it was funded and.

[00:55:40] It was wild like I as somebody who not I'm not a part like I'm a backer I'm a 15 dollar backer right so like I'm a part of it but like I don't have any yeah I don't have any like steak and this is not my project.

[00:55:52] I love playing me but like I was like hitting refresh every 10 minutes like it was like something that I was like I was like give refresh here refresh all day I was it was so fun to watch it just skyrocket and so many people join in and it become what.

[00:56:09] What it what it what it is so we have a new flame album that's coming.

[00:56:13] Yeah, it's so great. I'm so excited I get to like make the album of my dreams really like I get to go sit in a national studio for a week now and play with you know musicians I can afford to pay musicians that I am you know.

[00:56:32] People I've wanted to play with for a long time like it's it's so it's so cool and yeah I mean what else to say about that other than I'm just so freaking grateful and.

[00:56:46] I had a scrambled you know to get stretch goals together because I was like oh you know maybe if I hit the target with enough time left we'll come up with some stretch goals and I had a couple ideas in mind but I hadn't thought seriously about stretch goals and I was like.

[00:57:00] Okay well there's 28 days of fundraising left and we've we've hit the goals so what do I do now.

[00:57:06] So yeah we've I think we've got some pretty cool and like I'm really excited it was actually my friends my friend Karen's idea to to do a drag summer camp and.

[00:57:18] I mean you know similar to like theology beer camp and other things that that happen in spaces like ours but. The differences this one is pure entertainment I am not interested in speakers and like.

[00:57:35] I mean you know we're not doing any live podcast recordings none of it like it's just you're coming and it's literally going to be summer camp for grownups.

[00:57:43] We're nothing is mandatory but everything's available and so I don't know it's it's a big goal if we get there but if we do I'm so excited because it's just going to be drag shows and concerts and like summer camp crafts and activities and games.

[00:58:00] I love that can can the bulk of the programming be just in the evening and then you can sleep in because I feel like that's that's the problem is I'm looking at because you have to get up and be somewhere at eight a.

[00:58:13] Absolutely nothing early like I don't know I what I envision are like you know we've got like a. You just have like the different game stations things as simple as like cornhole and like I don't know I don't know whatever games there are.

[00:58:32] And then like yeah maybe everybody's almost out of bed.

[00:58:35] Then we all have like a late lunch or brunch or whatever together and then in the afternoon you've got like maybe on one part of it you've got someone like a queen who's really good with costuming is going to like help people put together a costume and then.

[00:58:48] I'll teach a makeup tutorial class or a wig styling or whatever like it'll just be that kind of silly stuff in the afternoon and then in the evening will do well if I envision three evenings right so the first evening will. probably be.

[00:59:04] Like I a concert and I like more traditional concert and I'll just bring in some of my favorite artists and we'll all play music and then the second evening I feel like is a. I like a mix of a talent show and like.

[00:59:20] Lip sync for your life kind of situation slash like like like like like basically everybody else gets to like perform drag their version of drag and they'll be able to be can be like a friendly competition with whatever like.

[00:59:33] prizes or whatever and then the last night would be like the big drag show where I'm going to invite all my all of my favorite queens. To come and just have a big show to send it off so.

[00:59:45] Yeah, so if that excites any of you who are listening the kick starters running and let's get it to the final stretch goal it excites me I'm gonna have to go back we're gonna go back. We're re we're re up in.

[01:00:00] Because yeah, that's exciting and very fun Megan I feel like I've asked a lot of questions to talk to that do you have.

[01:00:06] Well okay I feel like I don't want to wrap up without asking about Amy Grant because I feel like part of flea me Grant is that you were a fan and art like of Amy Grant and I have have you ever connected with her has she have you ever overlapped with her anyway or.

[01:00:23] I know she was recently in the news for hosting her I think nieces lesbian wedding and so let a lot of Christians had big feelings about that and so. A lot of folks deconstructing were pretty excited to see that she was queer affirming and. Yeah, she.

[01:00:44] I think she's privately been that way for a very long time and I know she has because there's a.

[01:00:49] There's a Facebook group called gay friends of Amy Grant that's private and I didn't know it existed until I started doing dragons flamey grant and they found me and they were really excited that there was a drag queen who had taken on.

[01:01:01] You know who's inspired by Amy's name and they invited me in so I've talked to so many people in that group now who have been seeing her for 20 years you know and.

[01:01:10] Who she's always been so like affectionate towards and loving towards and you know never never had a home of a woman home of public bone in her body but yeah recently she's. Made much more public statements.

[01:01:24] The first was on Apple's proud radio in the middle of pandemic actually she came out as came out really clearly with a very affirming statement and then yeah the news about her niece and everything so she's.

[01:01:39] Although I had I think she was doing it even before then because there was at and a concert I went to in 20 probably 18. She had some of her merch one of her songs the title is Lovell find away.

[01:01:54] And she had that on a shirt but it with a. The program bow and I was like this is like really like blatantly obvious what's happening here with this piece of merch. And so anyway all that say.

[01:02:11] We love Amy Grant we stand Amy Grant I've been you know she was my. She was my version of a diva because I wasn't less allowed to listen to anything other than Christian music growing up so. But I have not met her in person yet.

[01:02:28] I very much hope to I've talked with enough people now who are just in her sphere. Some people on her team and that kind of stuff to know that she knows I exist and you know she knows she knows what's happening and.

[01:02:45] All reports seem to point to you know she and her team like kind of just quietly yeah the thumbs up the applause from the sidelines and they.

[01:02:57] Yeah, they're not mad um which is good because that would be just absolutely mortifying a lot of her fans are mad though and like her.

[01:03:08] Public Facebook fan page I've come up in there a few times and I not like I am just an observer I've never actually commented on anything in there but.

[01:03:19] Somebody else will like mention flamey grant and they're in it was just start a whole firestorm of comments and yeah I mean lot.

[01:03:27] It's a long standing Amy Grant fan like like tradition to be angry at Amy for things like you know she's forever has had that in her. You know I remember my church being like oh they're a way your your baby grant.

[01:03:45] Righties she was one of the first victims of that whole conservative boycott cancel culture nonsense. So yeah and she's still thriving and still going so I hope I get to meet her one day you know I don't dare to dream of something as.

[01:04:06] Amazing as like a musical collaboration or anything like that but. I want to dream of it. I'm dare in the dream. I what it makes me think of is I don't know so Kelly Clarkson was a huge fan of reba for a long time and then.

[01:04:24] Made a big on American Idol and I ended up seeing them play a show together where they sang each other songs the whole show and it was.

[01:04:33] phenomenal and I was like I wonder that has to be wild till like go from being a fan to then becoming an artist that to then. Doing a show with the person that was like your musical inspiration I could totally see that. I'm yeah.

[01:04:48] I can speak in it. I know I was like not to name it. But yeah I mean hey listen. It's it's happening right now with me in Derek Webb. Derek Webb is another one who I grew up on and have long followed his career and loved love his.

[01:05:07] I would say he's one of the most influential songwriters for me in terms of you know just how I learned to write songs and songs I wanted to write like so and now I'm going on tour with him next year. So what's the name of the tour?

[01:05:19] The end of days tour. It's so great. Love it. Well I used to dance around in my basement to vinyl to age to age on vinyl and so now I need to get that Bible belt baby vinyl and maybe my daughters can dance around my apartment. Yeah.

[01:05:40] But I love it. Yeah. Well I might do you have anything else. I don't have anything else. I get talk obviously. We have this conversation forever.

[01:05:50] But we want to give you a chance to plug anything else that we haven't mentioned already so that our listeners can find me know everywhere that they can find you and support your work. Well thanks. Yeah I mean it's it really is what we've talked about.

[01:06:02] It's the the kickstarter for the new record and then tour tour dates are all on my website flamiegrant.com and The music is out there. I'm really easy to find. I'm the only flamiegrant out there. You just have to make sure to type it right. Yes.

[01:06:18] All right well thank you so much for coming on the app. Thank you. I appreciate you having me. Yes thank you so much. We cannot wait to have you back and I'm so excited to see you on tour and go.

[01:06:29] Funnet stretch goal so we can have drag cap. Yes. Till next time. Awesome. I know. All right that was amazing. I love it. I'm happy every everybody we get to talk to on this show. I'm always like pinching myself excited.

[01:06:57] Flamie's just like I've spent so much time in her music. And then by the way they'll have several months it just. I don't know it was super cool and extra special.

[01:07:10] To have that conversation and I hope that listeners go and and you know if you hadn't heard of flamie already. I hope you go and just do as I have done and stream our record over and over again.

[01:07:22] Well and I learned something because I was more associating her music with worship music and now as she explained it is like the CCM 90's vibe.

[01:07:32] I'm like, oh that's why it hits my soul so much because there's a couple of words of songs but that that CCM 90's vibe is what shaped me. It it so has and I don't think that we lean in to that aspect of Megan on this show enough.

[01:07:50] That like like that is truly like when I think like 90's early 2000's CCM I don't think people realize how like actually like how much you lived that and we're so into that that music. I mean okay.

[01:08:07] As somebody you never got to go to cornerstone you were there. I was just in for that cash mirror and we will dig up a picture if I can find it of me at cornerstone with all my hair and braids you know I'd like it'll be great.

[01:08:21] I will try to dig this up see if I can find it and mine when we're sharing this episode but I hope you enjoy this conversation. I hope you sign up for our event if you're interested content warning event dot com and Portland working people find you.

[01:08:37] You can find me at Portland coffee all around the web primarily on Instagram these days I've been flirting with Twitter again.

[01:08:43] I've been getting back on there because I miss people and so I've been tweeting I took the little pin post I had down it was like I will not be back here.

[01:08:50] And I've been posting some so I'm on Twitter a little bit but mostly Instagram and threads so. I like don't have a monogamous relationship with social media. You're on all of them.

[01:09:02] That's right that's right and it's just like I don't like having you and I'm like I'm an ex Christian but like give me that community and sometimes sometimes I'll go back sometimes. I've just I just I like returning and just.

[01:09:14] Dabbling at once again in the old things that I've loved. Megan working people find you. I met the pursuing life in all the places and.

[01:09:24] Check out our patreon patreon dot com slash there after pod and we just heard from one of our listeners in the last couple weeks. I really heartwarming email and I just wanted to say thank you and also just reach out.

[01:09:37] We can all you can all use email us hosts at thereafter.com. Let us know you're there. Let us know your listening because we're in the business of building community and I don't like the or business there but we. That we're in the business. That's our business.

[01:09:49] That's our vibe. And so we want to do that. I'm I'm I'm here for it. No other business. I want to be in that business versus the business I'm actually in. I think we need to end. Let's do it. Let's say we're in the business of ending.

[01:10:04] We'll see you guys next week on another episode of thereafter. And until next time.