[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.
[00:00:07] I was wondering about our yesterdays and digging through the rubble,
[00:00:11] and to say at least somebody went to a hell of a lot of trouble,
[00:00:15] to make sure that when we looked things up we wouldn't fare too well
[00:00:19] and we would come up with totally unreliable pictures of ourselves.
[00:00:22] But I've compiled what few facts I could, I mean such as they are,
[00:00:26] to see if we could find out a little bit of something,
[00:00:29] and this is what I got so far.
[00:00:31] First, White folks discovered Africa.
[00:00:34] They claimed it fanned square.
[00:00:36] See some roads couldn't have been robbed in nobody because hell had went nobody there.
[00:00:41] The White folks brought all the civilization because they wasn't none around.
[00:00:45] How could the folks be civilized when nobody writing nothing down?
[00:00:50] They found out that there were whole tribes of people in plain sight
[00:00:54] running around with no clothes on. That's right.
[00:00:57] Demand the women, the young and the old righteous folks covered their eyes.
[00:01:01] And no time was spent considering the environment.
[00:01:04] Hell no, this just wasn't civilized.
[00:01:07] And another piece of information they had or at least this is what we were taught.
[00:01:11] Is that unlike the civilized people of Europe,
[00:01:14] these tribal units actually fought.
[00:01:17] And yes there was some crude implements and yes there was primitive art.
[00:01:23] And yes there was masters of hunting and fishing and credits came from the heart.
[00:01:27] And yes there was love and medicine, religion,
[00:01:30] intertribal communication by drum,
[00:01:32] with no paper, no pencils,
[00:01:34] and no other utensils and hell these folks have never even heard of a gun.
[00:01:37] And this is why the colonies came to stabilize the land
[00:01:41] because the dark continent had copper and gold
[00:01:44] and the discoverers had themselves a plan.
[00:01:46] They would discover all the places with promise.
[00:01:49] We didn't need no titles and deeds.
[00:01:51] Then they would appoint people to make everything legal to sanction the trickery and greed.
[00:01:56] And back in the jungle when the natives got restless,
[00:01:58] they would call it guerrilla attack.
[00:02:00] And they would never describe that the folks finally got wise and decided that they would fight back.
[00:02:05] And still we are victims of word game semantics as always a f***.
[00:02:09] Places once referred to as underdeveloped and now called the mineral rich.
[00:02:14] And the game goes on eternally, unity kept just beyond reach.
[00:02:18] Egypt and Libya used to be in Africa.
[00:02:20] They've now been moved to the Middle East.
[00:02:22] There are examples of the law I assure you.
[00:02:25] But if interpreting will left up to me,
[00:02:27] I'd be sure every time folks knew this version wasn't mine,
[00:02:31] which is why it is called history.
[00:02:34] We have enemies within our country.
[00:02:41] I think it's a combination of demonology and psi-up.
[00:02:44] The citizens are going to rise up and become deputized.
[00:02:47] I have always heard President Trump.
[00:02:49] I like the way he talked.
[00:02:51] He reminded me of most men.
[00:02:53] Joe Biden last night in the debate.
[00:02:55] He's like he's not even in the world.
[00:02:57] He's like he's not even in the world.
[00:02:59] He's like he's not even in the world.
[00:03:01] Joe Biden last night in the debate.
[00:03:03] He's like he's not even a human being.
[00:03:05] Donald Trump and the migraly Republicans represented extremism.
[00:03:08] Can you imagine repatriating all the black Americans
[00:03:12] that had to spoke about to Africa?
[00:03:14] Now, this is the evidence.
[00:03:16] You want me to make an act of faith, risking myself,
[00:03:19] my wife, my woman, my sister, my children,
[00:03:22] on some idealism which you assure me just to America
[00:03:26] which I have never seen.
[00:03:28] This is Profane Faith.
[00:03:30] A podcast that engages faith on the margins.
[00:03:33] Faith that has been labeled profane, non-conformist
[00:03:36] or even out there.
[00:03:38] We'll be exploring the intersections of the sacred,
[00:03:40] secular and profane define God.
[00:03:43] And look, we won't be trying to answer difficult questions.
[00:03:46] Rather, we'll be engaging them and asking better ones
[00:03:49] regarding faith, race, gender, and religion.
[00:03:53] I'll be your host, Daniel Whitehodge.
[00:04:01] All right, all right, all right.
[00:04:03] Welcome back, welcome back.
[00:04:05] Here we are, Profane Faith.
[00:04:07] Another week, another time,
[00:04:10] welcome in.
[00:04:11] As always, welcome new listeners, welcome to Vets.
[00:04:14] Welcome those who have been listening since day one.
[00:04:18] I appreciate all of y'all.
[00:04:20] New listeners, check out the archive.
[00:04:22] Folks have been here a long time.
[00:04:24] Especially if you are a pastor at a church
[00:04:27] where you just done with
[00:04:29] a couple of motherfuck's and f**k views in a podcast.
[00:04:34] You know, welcome.
[00:04:36] I'm glad you can sneak this in.
[00:04:38] You know what I'm saying?
[00:04:40] Yeah, man.
[00:04:42] The intro there, if you've never heard
[00:04:45] the great Gil Scott Heron,
[00:04:47] I highly recommend you checking his material out.
[00:04:50] There's a lot of it on YouTube.
[00:04:52] You still have to dig for it.
[00:04:54] But now if you just type in Gil Scott,
[00:04:56] G-I-L, Gil Scott poetry,
[00:04:59] you go here a lot.
[00:05:01] That was him.
[00:05:02] I thought that was an interesting set
[00:05:05] that he did there because it, you know,
[00:05:07] it encapsulated so much of just capitalism,
[00:05:10] neoliberalism,
[00:05:11] where we find ourselves in terms of consumption.
[00:05:16] And of course, just good old racism
[00:05:19] and colonialism as well.
[00:05:22] So yeah, that was,
[00:05:24] that was a good just kind of capture that he's, you know,
[00:05:26] he's spoken word poetry artist.
[00:05:28] Really is kind of the,
[00:05:30] the four father, if you will,
[00:05:32] of hip hop rap,
[00:05:34] you know, linguistics.
[00:05:36] And so he's got a lot of good material out there.
[00:05:38] So I figured out,
[00:05:39] let y'all be blessed with that,
[00:05:42] that introduction there just because,
[00:05:44] yeah, it's good.
[00:05:45] You need to hear it again here again.
[00:05:47] Um, yeah, laid out a good amount of things
[00:05:51] that I'm, that I've been feeling a lot these days
[00:05:54] in regards to, you know,
[00:05:56] uh,
[00:05:58] what is going to happen in the next decade?
[00:06:00] One of the topics that we're covering
[00:06:02] in my social media friends and family class
[00:06:04] is, you know,
[00:06:06] dystopia and kind of end of the world scenarios.
[00:06:09] And so I had them watch two different films,
[00:06:11] uh, one of them children are men
[00:06:13] and then the other one interstellar.
[00:06:15] Uh, and both have a different take
[00:06:17] on what end of the world looks like.
[00:06:20] I think the cinematography and both of those,
[00:06:22] um, are amazing.
[00:06:24] You haven't seen them highly recommended.
[00:06:26] Um, they're out there, they're around.
[00:06:28] Um, if you have seen them,
[00:06:29] you know what I'm talking about.
[00:06:30] And if you get the DVD
[00:06:32] of children or men,
[00:06:33] there's a documentary on there called
[00:06:35] The Possibility of Hope.
[00:06:36] You can actually look that up right now on YouTube.
[00:06:38] Um, I'll put a link in the show notes for that.
[00:06:41] Um,
[00:06:42] but yeah, YouTube has,
[00:06:44] it's called The Possibility of Hope.
[00:06:45] It's about a 28-minute documentary
[00:06:47] just looking at things.
[00:06:48] Now this,
[00:06:49] you gotta remember, this thing came out in 2000,
[00:06:51] I think six, two thousand, no, 2008.
[00:06:54] I believe it's when he came out, 2009.
[00:06:56] Um, talking about a future,
[00:06:59] you know, children are men is talking about a future
[00:07:01] um, in 2027,
[00:07:03] which not too far away from now,
[00:07:05] uh, about when, uh,
[00:07:07] oh, but essentially there is no birth rate anymore.
[00:07:11] Women have gone infertile,
[00:07:13] uh, and so have men.
[00:07:14] And the last baby,
[00:07:16] um,
[00:07:17] is, uh, from a black woman.
[00:07:19] And so, uh, again,
[00:07:22] it's fascinating film.
[00:07:24] Um, and the documentary that's on at The Possibility of Hope
[00:07:26] is like I said,
[00:07:27] put out right around that same time,
[00:07:29] 2008, 2009.
[00:07:31] And you think they were talking about things right now?
[00:07:34] Um, to my favorite authors
[00:07:35] and, uh,
[00:07:36] uh, thinkers,
[00:07:38] Naomi Klein,
[00:07:39] Fabrizio Eva,
[00:07:41] um, even Slavo's Isaac.
[00:07:43] You're familiar with him.
[00:07:44] Some of his stuff is pretty good.
[00:07:46] Uh, I think he's a little eccentric,
[00:07:48] uh, but, uh, nevertheless,
[00:07:50] um, you know, and I think it's, uh,
[00:07:53] uh,
[00:07:55] I think it's just interesting.
[00:07:57] I'd love to have the conversation with y'all about,
[00:07:59] you know, the possibility of hope.
[00:08:01] What does that look like?
[00:08:02] You know, particularly as we think about climate change,
[00:08:04] as we think about, um,
[00:08:06] mass consumption,
[00:08:08] as we think about borders
[00:08:09] and how borders, um,
[00:08:11] show up in different places
[00:08:13] and, and, I mean, think about this.
[00:08:14] At least if you're listening to this in real time,
[00:08:15] you know, that, um,
[00:08:17] I'm sure you heard the news that, you know,
[00:08:19] TikTok is, uh, you know, there's,
[00:08:21] there's a bill on the table, you know,
[00:08:23] for TikTok to be banned in the US.
[00:08:24] Or at least they want
[00:08:26] a US person
[00:08:27] to run TikTok USA,
[00:08:29] which is just like,
[00:08:31] I really,
[00:08:32] of all the things that we're dealing with.
[00:08:35] Um,
[00:08:36] that's what you come up with.
[00:08:37] Like, that is what,
[00:08:39] um,
[00:08:40] you're going to,
[00:08:41] to put out on the table,
[00:08:43] you know, not healthcare,
[00:08:44] not police terrorism,
[00:08:46] not the fact that inflation is killing most of,
[00:08:49] of the US citizens.
[00:08:51] Uh, I mean,
[00:08:52] all of these things right there
[00:08:54] are some mounting climate change,
[00:08:55] but you want to ban TikTok.
[00:08:57] Yeah, there's,
[00:08:58] there's some bullshit right there.
[00:09:00] Um, and I know there's a lot of theories
[00:09:02] and a lot of, you know,
[00:09:03] uh,
[00:09:04] you know,
[00:09:05] thought pieces in and around why they want to ban TikTok.
[00:09:08] Irregardless of what do you believe
[00:09:10] at the point is it's just dumb.
[00:09:12] And I don't even use TikTok,
[00:09:14] but I, it's like, no, why would you,
[00:09:16] why would you ban TikTok?
[00:09:18] Really? That's well.
[00:09:19] So again, possibility of hope.
[00:09:22] So when we have conversations around that,
[00:09:24] um, I always show that
[00:09:26] right before the spring break.
[00:09:28] So we got a break,
[00:09:29] a spring break,
[00:09:30] you know, kind of,
[00:09:31] uh, you know, in regards to that.
[00:09:32] So obviously we,
[00:09:33] we get in and we look at,
[00:09:35] okay,
[00:09:36] how for example is,
[00:09:38] um,
[00:09:39] how is media portrayed that, right?
[00:09:41] So let's go through Hollywood.
[00:09:42] Let's work through,
[00:09:43] uh, some of the,
[00:09:44] the end of the world scenarios, right?
[00:09:46] Whether it be aliens,
[00:09:47] whether it be divine,
[00:09:48] uh, end of the world,
[00:09:49] whether it be the earth,
[00:09:50] or the planet itself,
[00:09:51] uh,
[00:09:52] whether it be,
[00:09:53] uh, us as humans, right?
[00:09:55] Or a combination of the two.
[00:09:56] So, um, yeah.
[00:09:58] So we, you know,
[00:09:59] we worked through that,
[00:10:00] set them up,
[00:10:01] and then we come back and we, you know,
[00:10:02] watch Interstellar,
[00:10:03] um, and kind of look at it
[00:10:04] because Interstellar,
[00:10:05] you know, again,
[00:10:06] if you haven't seen it,
[00:10:07] you know, really is a humanist type of perspective, right?
[00:10:09] You got this hinting of ghost paranormal,
[00:10:12] uh, you know, this,
[00:10:14] this divine being that's looking out for us.
[00:10:17] And in reality,
[00:10:18] it's just us.
[00:10:19] It's humans.
[00:10:20] It's a technologically advanced human civilization
[00:10:23] uh,
[00:10:24] that's able to dip back,
[00:10:25] uh, in time, you know,
[00:10:27] into our third dimension,
[00:10:28] uh, you know,
[00:10:29] they're coming out of,
[00:10:30] you know, five,
[00:10:31] six, seven dimensions, right?
[00:10:32] They're able to build that
[00:10:33] tether act around Cooper,
[00:10:34] um,
[00:10:35] and in the black hole, right?
[00:10:37] That's some,
[00:10:38] it's some technology right there.
[00:10:39] Be able to do that,
[00:10:40] um,
[00:10:41] and they're able to, you know,
[00:10:43] again, quote unquote,
[00:10:44] save the humanity race.
[00:10:45] Now I get it.
[00:10:46] Christopher Nolan,
[00:10:47] what are my favorite directors?
[00:10:48] I know he's got some problems.
[00:10:49] I really wasn't impressed with the Oppenheimer,
[00:10:51] especially if you know anything about
[00:10:53] what happened with the bomb
[00:10:55] and the displacement of so many people
[00:10:58] and then not only that,
[00:10:59] just the, uh,
[00:11:00] the fallout,
[00:11:01] from that test,
[00:11:02] that fallout test,
[00:11:03] um,
[00:11:04] killed a lot of people.
[00:11:05] Killed a lot of people.
[00:11:08] Uh, and not only that left, uh,
[00:11:09] thousands, uh,
[00:11:10] in ruined for years,
[00:11:12] uh, from just the fallout
[00:11:13] from that, that bomb.
[00:11:14] So Christopher Nolan definitely
[00:11:16] has some problems as,
[00:11:17] as middle-aged white guy,
[00:11:18] you know,
[00:11:19] an interstellar,
[00:11:20] um,
[00:11:21] the black guy of course,
[00:11:22] dies first.
[00:11:23] Well, I'll take that back.
[00:11:25] So it was he didn't die first,
[00:11:26] but he was next up on the chopping block.
[00:11:28] Uh,
[00:11:29] white guy died first,
[00:11:30] but he was next.
[00:11:32] Like how are you going to survive
[00:11:33] 23 years of sitting in a capsule waiting
[00:11:37] for these two people,
[00:11:38] not ever leaving,
[00:11:39] not ever going back like
[00:11:41] he was just like,
[00:11:42] oh, I'm committed.
[00:11:43] He did,
[00:11:44] I would have gone back.
[00:11:45] I would have,
[00:11:46] after the fifth year,
[00:11:47] I would have been like,
[00:11:48] this niggas ain't coming back.
[00:11:49] Right?
[00:11:50] These motherfuckers ain't coming back.
[00:11:51] So I'm out.
[00:11:52] I'm a leave a note and then
[00:11:54] when I'm out,
[00:11:55] but he stayed there 23 years,
[00:11:57] um,
[00:11:58] and then only to go
[00:11:59] to mans planet,
[00:12:01] um, Dr. Mans planet
[00:12:02] and this motherfucker gets blown up.
[00:12:05] Cause man is,
[00:12:06] you know, a shithead
[00:12:07] and wants to,
[00:12:09] uh, you know, the best of mankind.
[00:12:10] Right?
[00:12:11] Uh, and he ends up,
[00:12:12] you know,
[00:12:13] just trying to maroon
[00:12:15] uh, Cooper
[00:12:16] and Dr. Brand.
[00:12:18] So again,
[00:12:19] some fascinating things dealing
[00:12:21] with that,
[00:12:22] dealing with the components of humanism,
[00:12:23] dealing with the components
[00:12:24] of time travel,
[00:12:25] dealing with the components
[00:12:26] of gravitational,
[00:12:27] lensing,
[00:12:28] gravitational waves,
[00:12:29] gravity as you know
[00:12:31] is one of the,
[00:12:32] the elements that can stretch over time.
[00:12:34] Uh, it can go through dimensions.
[00:12:37] In fact, there are scientists,
[00:12:39] especially believe in string theory,
[00:12:41] uh, that have picked up on gravitational anomalies
[00:12:43] on the outer corners
[00:12:45] of the observable universe.
[00:12:47] Uh, that they suggest is actually
[00:12:49] another universe,
[00:12:50] uh, a whole other universe,
[00:12:52] different properties,
[00:12:53] different elements,
[00:12:54] everything just budding up,
[00:12:55] um, to,
[00:12:56] budding up to our universe.
[00:12:58] And so it's just that the gravity
[00:12:59] is doing some crazy things
[00:13:00] in that particular area.
[00:13:02] Um, and so the,
[00:13:04] the initial thought is,
[00:13:05] is that, you know,
[00:13:06] that gravity right there
[00:13:07] is, uh, is,
[00:13:09] is from another,
[00:13:10] another universe, you know,
[00:13:11] especially if you think about the multi,
[00:13:12] multiverse theory,
[00:13:13] um, not to get too heavy on anybody,
[00:13:15] but again,
[00:13:16] so this kind of brings up
[00:13:18] the, the thought of,
[00:13:20] okay, what about our environment?
[00:13:22] You know,
[00:13:23] what happens when the top
[00:13:24] soil is depleted?
[00:13:25] What happens
[00:13:26] when we've consumed all the resources
[00:13:27] of this world?
[00:13:29] Um,
[00:13:30] now interstellar
[00:13:31] is a,
[00:13:32] is a,
[00:13:33] is a post apocalyptic
[00:13:35] post apocalyptic type film, right?
[00:13:39] So this is too.
[00:13:40] It's like,
[00:13:41] there's a couple of lines in the film
[00:13:42] and interstellar that, you know,
[00:13:43] talk about,
[00:13:44] um,
[00:13:46] uh, you know,
[00:13:47] Cooper talks about like,
[00:13:48] you know, when I was younger,
[00:13:49] we were too busy fighting for food
[00:13:50] and everything.
[00:13:51] So it's already dealing with the ugly elements
[00:13:53] that children of Manas Dealingham
[00:13:54] write war,
[00:13:55] catastrophe,
[00:13:56] killing death,
[00:13:57] mass murders,
[00:13:58] you know,
[00:13:59] just lawlessness,
[00:14:00] uh, running the land.
[00:14:01] Um,
[00:14:02] and interstellar is a future that says,
[00:14:05] we don't have any militaries anymore.
[00:14:06] In fact,
[00:14:07] we're in such a dire need
[00:14:09] for food
[00:14:11] and survival.
[00:14:12] Now, we're going to get rid of all militaries
[00:14:13] altogether
[00:14:15] and we need to focus on farming
[00:14:16] because we're out of food, right?
[00:14:18] And interstellar picks up with,
[00:14:20] uh,
[00:14:21] you know,
[00:14:22] they're running out of Okra,
[00:14:23] Okra's gone,
[00:14:24] Blythe's thriving,
[00:14:25] Corn is about to run out,
[00:14:26] uh,
[00:14:27] and the doctor,
[00:14:28] Dr. Brand,
[00:14:29] the older Dr. Brand is like, you know,
[00:14:30] the last to starve,
[00:14:31] we're the first to,
[00:14:32] um,
[00:14:33] suffocate, right?
[00:14:34] Essentially,
[00:14:35] because Blythe has taken up,
[00:14:36] uh,
[00:14:37] all the eating up all the auction
[00:14:38] and putting out nitrogen back
[00:14:39] into the earth atmosphere.
[00:14:40] So,
[00:14:41] earth is becoming
[00:14:42] uninhabitable.
[00:14:43] Um,
[00:14:44] so it does ask the question.
[00:14:46] Children of Man at least
[00:14:47] has the divide between those
[00:14:48] who are poor
[00:14:49] and those who are rich.
[00:14:50] Again, you got to see the film.
[00:14:51] Um,
[00:14:52] and those who are rich
[00:14:53] are so rich, right?
[00:14:54] They even have like flying pigs
[00:14:55] like this whole
[00:14:56] is a scene in their,
[00:14:57] um,
[00:14:58] with deal goes to meet
[00:14:59] with this cousin
[00:15:00] and they're talking about art
[00:15:01] and he's asking him like,
[00:15:02] how can you like,
[00:15:03] in a hundred years,
[00:15:04] like why are you doing all this?
[00:15:05] Like in a hundred years
[00:15:06] there's not gonna be,
[00:15:07] you know,
[00:15:08] anybody around here
[00:15:09] uh, to even enjoy this.
[00:15:10] And he was just like,
[00:15:11] I just don't think about it.
[00:15:12] And as he turns,
[00:15:13] there's this big ol'
[00:15:14] balloon,
[00:15:15] uh, of a,
[00:15:16] you know, of a pig,
[00:15:17] a fat ass pig and stuff,
[00:15:18] man. So again,
[00:15:19] the symbolism
[00:15:20] that we have in these films
[00:15:22] that we have,
[00:15:23] uh,
[00:15:24] you know,
[00:15:25] it's just so starkly
[00:15:27] representative of where we find ourselves today.
[00:15:29] Bowing,
[00:15:30] killing off of whistleblower
[00:15:31] because you know they fucking did it.
[00:15:33] Um,
[00:15:34] you know, when you,
[00:15:35] when you start to think about
[00:15:36] just the amount of
[00:15:38] war crimes
[00:15:39] that the CIA alone
[00:15:40] has committed
[00:15:41] over the last 60, 70 years,
[00:15:43] um,
[00:15:44] the amount of governments
[00:15:45] that they toppled
[00:15:46] uh, and the ensuing chaos
[00:15:47] that came after that,
[00:15:48] uh, is mind-blowing.
[00:15:51] And,
[00:15:52] I don't know, man,
[00:15:54] it's, uh,
[00:15:55] it's enough to get you to say,
[00:15:56] hmm,
[00:15:57] and it's easy because we live in a privileged country,
[00:15:59] at least here in the US,
[00:16:00] we live in a privileged country.
[00:16:01] Um,
[00:16:02] yes, I know we have issues,
[00:16:03] but at the end of the day,
[00:16:04] at least where I'm at,
[00:16:05] I don't necessarily have to think about
[00:16:06] where my next meal is coming from.
[00:16:07] I mean, I want to prepare it.
[00:16:08] I may be tired to cook some food,
[00:16:10] but we have food.
[00:16:11] We have access to food.
[00:16:12] I don't have to think about,
[00:16:13] oh shit,
[00:16:14] like the grocery store is out.
[00:16:15] Like, we're gonna have to go
[00:16:16] and,
[00:16:17] you know, hunt.
[00:16:18] We got to eat our pets,
[00:16:20] right? That type of shit.
[00:16:21] Um,
[00:16:22] so I can almost
[00:16:23] relate going back to children,
[00:16:25] and men to Theo's cousin.
[00:16:26] And he's like,
[00:16:27] I don't have to think about it.
[00:16:29] Right?
[00:16:30] And this is what Slava's Isaac says.
[00:16:32] Uh, he's like, you know,
[00:16:33] it's difficult for us to wrap our minds around
[00:16:37] climate change
[00:16:38] and all the atrocities that are happening.
[00:16:41] Cause he said you have to go
[00:16:43] to the dump to really understand.
[00:16:45] Like, you have to go into the shit itself
[00:16:47] to really begin because it's easier to walk outside.
[00:16:49] Right? You got blue skies.
[00:16:50] You got flowers
[00:16:51] that are blooming.
[00:16:52] It's just like, what are you talking about?
[00:16:54] Climate change is like this.
[00:16:55] You know, this is what is what's happening, right?
[00:16:58] Um, and Naomi Klein says,
[00:17:00] you have to be aware of people
[00:17:02] who fall in love with ideas
[00:17:04] and theories
[00:17:06] um,
[00:17:07] and those ideologies
[00:17:09] um, because
[00:17:10] the messiness and complexity of people
[00:17:12] uh, kind of destroy
[00:17:14] those really utopian
[00:17:16] uh, ideas
[00:17:18] of what the future should be, right?
[00:17:21] And this is kind of the thing like, you know, for example, Hitler, um,
[00:17:24] who thought about, you know, having
[00:17:27] uh, this, this, this one world
[00:17:29] of the right society,
[00:17:30] the right Aryan race, um, you know,
[00:17:32] installing to a lesser extent as well.
[00:17:35] Um, and the list goes on, you know,
[00:17:37] you now you have Trump
[00:17:38] who wants to eradicate, you know, certain folks.
[00:17:40] So again, be wary
[00:17:41] of people who fall in love with fucking ideas.
[00:17:44] Uh, because the,
[00:17:45] the, the, the opposite of that love
[00:17:48] is hate,
[00:17:49] is extermination, is war.
[00:17:51] Uh, is developing bigger
[00:17:53] and much more terrifying
[00:17:55] nuclear weapons, um,
[00:17:57] because the shit that they have now
[00:17:59] is easily
[00:18:01] 100, 200 times bigger than what was dropped
[00:18:03] from Hiroshima.
[00:18:04] Um,
[00:18:05] and you know,
[00:18:06] that oughta concern us,
[00:18:07] especially when you have a world leader saying like,
[00:18:09] hey, I may have to use some new weapons, right?
[00:18:11] They're talking about
[00:18:12] I can just blow Europe
[00:18:13] right off the map.
[00:18:14] We can blow London right off the map.
[00:18:16] It won't even take a bunch of missiles.
[00:18:17] It'll just take one or two
[00:18:18] and we can eviscerate that entire island.
[00:18:20] Um, so yeah,
[00:18:22] it's interesting.
[00:18:23] This is all the future, you know?
[00:18:24] The future is interesting.
[00:18:26] I hope for change.
[00:18:27] Uh, but, uh,
[00:18:28] I believe that we're going to hit the worst
[00:18:30] before we get to a better spot.
[00:18:32] That's just me though.
[00:18:33] That's just me.
[00:18:34] Um, this week's guests,
[00:18:37] uh, well hopefully help us think
[00:18:39] through some different things here.
[00:18:42] Uh, he's written an amazing book.
[00:18:44] Um, it's called Holy Hell,
[00:18:47] uh, Derek Ryan Kubilis.
[00:18:49] Yeah, he's an ordained elder serving in the East Ohio conference
[00:18:53] at the United Methodist Church.
[00:18:55] He's also a member of the Order of St. Luke
[00:18:57] and an amateur podcaster.
[00:18:58] Put those links all in the show notes.
[00:19:00] He currently serves the first United Method Church
[00:19:03] of Ashlyn Ohio
[00:19:05] where he lives with his wife Maggie,
[00:19:07] a Strenow and their two great Pyrenees Baywolf
[00:19:11] and Phenris.
[00:19:13] There we go.
[00:19:14] I think I got it right.
[00:19:15] Uh, this book here has been out.
[00:19:18] Uh, I actually recorded this last year
[00:19:20] and it's just been trying to catch up.
[00:19:22] Like I said, I got some folks good folks in the archive
[00:19:24] and I've been kind of waiting
[00:19:25] because this was a great conversation that I had with Derek.
[00:19:28] These are the type of conversations that I love
[00:19:30] and I love doing especially for, you know, this podcast.
[00:19:33] Um,
[00:19:34] this particular book,
[00:19:35] I won't give away the,
[00:19:36] the beans in the meat of it,
[00:19:38] but again, it's a case against the Turno damn nation.
[00:19:40] I think what Derek is trying to do
[00:19:42] is really push us beyond kind of this either or thinking.
[00:19:45] And we had a chance to really talk about this and that
[00:19:48] and, uh, you know, the possibility of hope.
[00:19:51] Right?
[00:19:52] Um, so here's Derek and I conversing about things
[00:19:56] and again, if you haven't seen Children of Men,
[00:19:58] Interstellar, go check it out.
[00:20:00] Tell me what you think.
[00:20:01] Uh, and I'll see you back next time.
[00:20:03] Here we go.
[00:20:04] Um, well brother Derek.
[00:20:06] Uh, and I want to make sure I say your last name, right?
[00:20:08] I got the, I got it's because you got all three names on the,
[00:20:11] on the cover Derek Ryan Kubles or Kubles.
[00:20:14] Kubles.
[00:20:15] Oh, it's a tough one.
[00:20:16] Kubles.
[00:20:17] Okay.
[00:20:18] All right.
[00:20:19] Well, welcome to Profane Faith.
[00:20:20] Thanks for taking time out today.
[00:20:21] Thank you.
[00:20:22] Thank you.
[00:20:23] Thank you.
[00:20:24] Thank you.
[00:20:25] Thank you.
[00:20:26] Thank you.
[00:20:27] Thank you.
[00:20:28] Thank you.
[00:20:29] Thank you.
[00:20:30] Thank you.
[00:20:31] Thank you.
[00:20:32] Thank you for taking time out today.
[00:20:34] Oh, I am so happy to be here.
[00:20:36] Thank you for having me, Dave.
[00:20:38] You and I was telling you before the show and I sincerely mean
[00:20:41] that you have wrote a banger, holy hell.
[00:20:43] It tastes against eternal damnation.
[00:20:46] Um, it's interesting because I teach a course on hip hop.
[00:20:50] One of the things we cover is like heaven, hell, suffering and pain and,
[00:20:53] and uh, I'm now going to be referring people to this because I think
[00:20:57] you provide some good historical background.
[00:20:59] But before we get into that, I always ask the same questions to everyone.
[00:21:02] What has been happening from birth to now?
[00:21:04] Where, how have you ended up the Derek that you are now?
[00:21:07] I was trying to figure out how I was going to answer that question.
[00:21:11] And uh, the best way that I can think of it still sort of relates back
[00:21:16] to the book was, um, I was born with a, uh, a limb difference.
[00:21:24] Hmm.
[00:21:25] I was born with a clubbed foot.
[00:21:28] I'm going to write like, and I had lots and lots of surgeries as a young
[00:21:34] person.
[00:21:35] I had eight ankle reconstructive operations to try to deal with that.
[00:21:41] And then when I was 29 years old, my leg fell apart.
[00:21:48] Oh, I had already been to seminary and I had already started my ministry
[00:21:53] in the United Methodist Church.
[00:21:55] I had my, a little church that I was serving and a big church.
[00:21:59] I was at two different churches at the time.
[00:22:01] And the doctors came back and said, uh, it's going to be best if you just let us cut
[00:22:07] us, cut it off.
[00:22:09] Oh, so I had to get my right leg amputated.
[00:22:13] Okay.
[00:22:14] Okay.
[00:22:15] And when I think about, first of all, that is,
[00:22:19] in anything related to my story, that is always at the center of it because
[00:22:24] it's the biggest struggle of my life.
[00:22:26] Yeah.
[00:22:27] Pain is concerned.
[00:22:29] I was on opiate medication for years.
[00:22:33] I was, um, it's been a struggle forever.
[00:22:39] Um, but in the amputation was really hard.
[00:22:44] And it was traumatic.
[00:22:46] And I'm still recovering from it, but I needed it.
[00:22:51] Okay.
[00:22:52] And I'm healthier now because it happened.
[00:22:56] It was a kind of pruning of my body.
[00:23:00] Wow.
[00:23:01] That allowed me to enter into a new phase of life, which is where I am now.
[00:23:07] And now I have a new phase of life.
[00:23:11] And that is where I am now.
[00:23:13] And now I have my prosthesis.
[00:23:16] I have much less pain.
[00:23:18] I'm married.
[00:23:19] I have awesome dogs.
[00:23:21] I serve in awesome church.
[00:23:23] Yeah.
[00:23:24] And that was only possible because I had this little piece of pruning that had to happen
[00:23:31] in my life.
[00:23:32] And, um, hopefully we'll get to how that fits into the book a little bit later on.
[00:23:39] Yeah, no, absolutely.
[00:23:40] That's that's interesting.
[00:23:41] I had never heard it put that way and that's that's a very interesting.
[00:23:44] So, um, why a book on hell?
[00:23:49] Holy hell.
[00:23:50] What is it about that in particular?
[00:23:52] And I'd love to tap into some of your all the stuff that you were just talking about like with you and I and conspiracy theories.
[00:23:57] Um, I know you touch on some of that.
[00:23:59] But I'd be curious.
[00:24:00] I like, why hell what's, what's what's what, what is the significance here?
[00:24:03] Well, what I discovered is that, um,
[00:24:06] that I'm a United Methodist. In the honest with you, we are not, we are not the kind of
[00:24:12] church that is constantly brow-beating people with the fear of hell. That's just not who
[00:24:19] we are. You know, we're different style than that and yet nevertheless, I found that my
[00:24:28] people, those who were put under my care in my flock, were haunted by hell. That the idea,
[00:24:39] and everyone has lost somebody close to them, right? A friend, a relative, a parent, a child,
[00:24:46] whoever it is, and there are a lot of people walking around with a lot of anxiety that their loved
[00:24:54] ones are burning forever. And a lot of people walking around with a lot of anxiety that maybe they
[00:25:03] will one day burn forever. And I was teaching a class, I teach classes to my churches and they
[00:25:14] said, hey, we really want a class on heaven and hell. And I'd never taught one on heaven and
[00:25:20] hell before. Again, Methodist, we don't talk a lot about that side of it. So I did a bunch of
[00:25:27] research and I came to a different conclusion for my own life where I became utterly convinced
[00:25:38] that what the Bible is talking about is not a kind of eternal torment. And there's been a tradition
[00:25:48] that has understood that for 2000 years. But nevertheless, the church hierarchy and the development
[00:25:56] of the religion has seen fit to use that fear of the worst imaginable outcome for anybody
[00:26:06] to manipulate and make people docile and keep them from asking questions and all those things.
[00:26:18] And so there are a lot of academic types that know about what we call the universalist or
[00:26:26] the purgatory universalist tradition. But it never really gets into the pews. No one really puts
[00:26:37] it in language that lay people can understand. And so that's what that's the job that I've tried to
[00:26:45] accomplish with this book. I love it. I love it because you're absolutely right. There are so many
[00:26:50] concepts and theological paradigm that you just said it doesn't make it into the pews. And I think
[00:26:56] so oftentimes there's so many folks right have just continued on with just a lot of the traditions
[00:27:02] and norms that they feel is biblical. Like if I don't do this, we're going to burn in hell. I mean,
[00:27:09] I grew up as a black seventh-day Adventist. And so hell and the end times were always there.
[00:27:15] Always there. I mean, look out the door. It's just like God has come and go start looking in the sky.
[00:27:20] God is going to crack that glass. Um, what is it about hell? Then your opinion man that is so haunting
[00:27:27] to people. Like I get the, you know, the job clothes and the sulfur. But yeah, what what else?
[00:27:34] Well, there are a couple things. Number one, I mean, you couldn't design a more psychologically
[00:27:40] terrifying idea, right? And in fact, I think it has been designed over the years to imagine a place
[00:27:49] where someone is being tortured in some kind of way for all eternity with no hope of ever getting
[00:28:00] out of that. That is in and of itself a psychologically damaging idea. What's even more
[00:28:09] psychologically damaging is that then we talk about a God of love. And a God who is father,
[00:28:20] mother, parent, however you want to put that in that that is the God that's doing this.
[00:28:28] That's the God that's condemning people to this. The thing that I invite people to think about
[00:28:35] is if you had a good childhood, think about that. Imagine, you know, you had two really loving
[00:28:44] parents came to all your football games or your cheerleading meets or your art shows, whatever it
[00:28:53] was, they were very supportive. You know, you always had hot food on the table, always had a
[00:29:00] soft place to lay your head. And they would sing lullabies to you at night to put you to sleep.
[00:29:07] Great relationship with your parents. And then you come to find out when you're an adult
[00:29:14] that that whole time that they were loving you and caring for you and doing all these things
[00:29:21] for you, the deep in the basement somewhere. There was a dungeon where they were secretly
[00:29:32] torturing your brothers and sisters. That's what we tell people God is. The God loves us,
[00:29:44] the God cares for us that, you know, as John puts it in first John, the God is love.
[00:29:54] And then we say, oh yeah, by the way, God's a loving father who nevertheless
[00:30:01] tortures some people forever and ever without ever letting them escape. I mean, that
[00:30:08] that's that shapes not only what we expect, not only our ideas about God but what we expect from
[00:30:16] our parents, what we expect from our leaders, what we expect from anyone who's in authority over us.
[00:30:23] And it makes it reasonable that some people would be treated as garbage while others are treated
[00:30:34] as beloved children. And so one of the points that I make in the book is that this hell of
[00:30:41] eternal torment is political, right? There is there is a political reason for it and that is
[00:30:52] to convince people they live in a world where some lives are worth something and other lives are
[00:31:00] worth absolutely nothing. Sheep and goats, light and darkness.
[00:31:09] Who? All right, that's where I started preaching at you for a minute there.
[00:31:12] I love it. I love it, man. I come on with it brother. I knew I was going to like you. So
[00:31:18] all right, so there's a lot there because I think when we step back from exactly what you just said,
[00:31:26] this analogy, right? And then connecting it back to parents when we step back from that.
[00:31:33] It begins to kind of make sense, right? Because like, you know, I have a daughter. I'm like, I
[00:31:36] wouldn't want her like if she didn't listen to me, I'm going to go throw her down there in the
[00:31:40] barbecue. So right in the dungeon, right? He's like, I'm not going to throw her in the smoker.
[00:31:44] You know, so she understands better. Somebody should call DCFS on God, man.
[00:31:49] God's on your breath, man. Well, tell me this, how do church leaders use this threat of hell as a way
[00:31:58] to maintain authority? And really it's like Barry Glasser puts it this culture of fear that
[00:32:04] begins to kind of get established if you will. Well, I'm not so cynical that I think that like
[00:32:12] every preacher is thinking about this. I think that it is a culture that has evolved over time.
[00:32:19] Okay, whereby we use that as a means of talking about how important our message is and how
[00:32:29] important we are. As a preacher, there's a certain sense in which if I think some people
[00:32:36] are going to be condemned forever and ever, then that means my message is the most important
[00:32:44] message in your life. My message is the most important message in the world doing things the way
[00:32:53] I tell you to do them is the only thing that's going to keep you from falling down into this pit
[00:33:00] from which you can never recover. Now, that's something about how it operates on a small level or
[00:33:10] how it can operate on a small level. But you blow that up over 2000 years, right? Right. Right.
[00:33:20] Into church that has taken over vast swathes of the world and all of a sudden you there are all
[00:33:30] kinds of terrible things that you can now rationalize doing because you are helping people avoid
[00:33:40] the worst possible fate. Right. If people might, if you're looking at a group of indigenous people
[00:33:50] and you're saying, well, they might burn forever and ever. So what we should probably do then because
[00:33:57] that's such a terrible outcome is that means we would be justified in conquering them,
[00:34:06] erasing their culture, enforceably converting them to our way of seeing things. It's in their
[00:34:14] service. It's for their benefit. Do you understand how that works? Yeah. And so in a lot of ways,
[00:34:22] the fires of hell are the engine that drives colonialism for centuries. That they are the
[00:34:33] rationalization, they are the justification for European Christian countries to conquer and take
[00:34:45] over indigenous populations and destroy their culture. That is, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's
[00:34:56] that's some powerful stuff right? That justification there. And it's part of even what's driving a lot
[00:35:03] of the kind of this idea of Christian nationalism, right? We have to bring prayer back into schools.
[00:35:12] The gays are of course taken over. There's an agenda. And I've said this on the show before,
[00:35:17] I want to make clear. This isn't just white either. This is this is these are these are my
[00:35:22] strong critiques as well, even within my own community, African-American community of there's a
[00:35:27] strong sense is like we got to bring gods, you know, will back to this country and somehow that
[00:35:32] we're ordained to that. Where do you see some of the overlaps in some of that? Like currently where
[00:35:37] we are some of these national discussions, even what's going on right now and as of the recording
[00:35:42] of this is real and in Palestine. Well, that's my next book. That's my next book. That's what I'm
[00:35:47] working on right now. Come on. Come on. This Christian nationalism idea, which we've always had
[00:35:56] ever since the year 313 AD when the emperor Constantine said he looked up and he saw
[00:36:04] written in the sky in Hoke Signovine Chase in this sign you will conquer. And he called himself
[00:36:13] a Christian even though he worshipped Helios, the sun god until he died. But the idea is is that
[00:36:23] when you imagine that you in your organization, your nation in terms not in terms of like
[00:36:34] legal but like your Christian white identity is the thing that saves people from hell.
[00:36:44] Then that rationalizes almost anything you could possibly do up to and including
[00:36:52] forcibly taking control of a government up to and including ignoring elections up to and
[00:37:00] including hurting anyone that you need to hurt in order. If you think in this is
[00:37:09] one of the best kept secrets of, and I like Catholicism. I have a lot of friends who are Catholics.
[00:37:20] I'm not anti-Catholic. There is, if you really want to mess yourself up,
[00:37:29] go to your Google machine and type in Catholic integralism.
[00:37:36] And this is actual doctrine teaching of the Magisterium that ultimately if human life is supposed
[00:37:46] to lead one toward God, then all the nations of the world should submit to the Catholic Church.
[00:37:58] Now that doesn't filter its way down into the pew, right? But it's this ultimate idea that oh,
[00:38:06] if we are right about this whole heaven and hell thing, then we should just rule everything
[00:38:15] because we know how to save people. We know how to get people to the good part of the afterlife
[00:38:23] in how to help them avoid the bad part.
[00:38:29] Wow, all right. This is a... Does that make sense? I don't know.
[00:38:33] Oh gosh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, um, yeah this is powerful. This is...
[00:38:42] Because you're a polymath yourself. And so you look out, when you see the way
[00:38:53] Christianity conspires with political parties and with ideology and market forces in all those
[00:39:06] things, I mean do you see how hell kind of would fit into that strategy? How that's...
[00:39:15] That is like a keystone of the whole thing. Yeah. Like that's what makes it work. Is that ultimately people
[00:39:26] will do what you tell them if they think you have the key to avoiding this worst possible outcome
[00:39:38] for their lives? What do you see there? Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is some... This is some powerful stuff.
[00:39:49] Mainly because I mean as somebody who studies groups of people and how they interact with
[00:39:55] each other and whatnot, it's very interesting to see just we... Just a human species kind of want
[00:40:01] it's almost like what Chomsky says. We need an enemy. We need something to push back on. We need
[00:40:06] something to that's out there that can... That we can feel good about in conquering. I've heard
[00:40:13] this most of my Christian adult life of the devil's out there and the devil's real and the devil's
[00:40:19] trying to mess you day up in what not and trying to... Of course, we can get into the different levels
[00:40:25] of that. But how has... What is the difference between hell as we see it now? Because I love that
[00:40:31] one of the chapters that you brought up in this book highlighted here. This one I think was on
[00:40:35] chapter three hell by any other name. What is the difference between hell now? We see it now. It's
[00:40:46] Italian. It's October at the time of reporting this. We've got the nuns, we've got the demons and
[00:40:53] the lizards coming out. We got a new exorcist coming out which is always find ironic that it's
[00:41:00] kind of a sexist film like the women are messing with these things. You really need the male priest to
[00:41:04] come in and... I never thought about it that way. That's an interesting read. I never thought about it
[00:41:10] that way. I'm saying. So anyways, all that to say and I think it can take credit for that. I
[00:41:15] think Dr. Megan Goodwin does amazing stuff on looking at religion and popular culture. My point
[00:41:21] what are the differences between what hell and how hell was mentioned throughout the various
[00:41:26] interpretations of what we now call the Bible? Yeah well first of all the thing that always shocks
[00:41:33] people when I talk to them about this is that hell is not in the Bible. Come on and you're going
[00:41:41] to say well yeah but I pull out my Bible and I see the word hell is there all over the place. Yeah
[00:41:48] that is a crappy English. It's not even a translation it's a substitution that we use for all kinds
[00:41:57] of words. So the first one I talk about is shill which is the Hebrew word and what's funny
[00:42:06] is that shill is sometimes spoken of as a positive place right? And so you run into this thing
[00:42:18] especially if you go back to the King James version of the Bible which is all some people read.
[00:42:24] If you go back to the King James version those places where the original Hebrew makes
[00:42:32] shill sound negative or where fire is mentioned or pain or anything like that they say they use
[00:42:42] the word hell in that place. If it's positive then they use words like grave or pit.
[00:42:52] So a great example is in the there's a scene where King Saul goes to this woman called The Witch of
[00:43:03] Endor and asks her to summon the ghost of Samuel from shill. And after rising from shill
[00:43:14] Samuel's first instinct is to complain that he has been disturbed. Now if he were being tortured
[00:43:24] and tormented that whole time you might think that oh actually uh he would enjoy the break right?
[00:43:33] He would enjoy having a few moments to come up for air but no and that's because
[00:43:39] shill is a poetic term. It is about the Hebrew people um trying to put words to all of our deepest
[00:43:50] hopes and fears around death and life in what it means to live on. If you really want to know
[00:43:59] ancient and i'm talking Bronze Age Abraham era view of the afterlife you gotta go to where
[00:44:09] Abraham and Lot swearing oath to one another. And in the English Bible it's always so silly they say
[00:44:18] they put their hands under one another's thighs and it's like well what does that mean?
[00:44:25] What it means is they were cupping one another's genitals in swearing and oath because that was
[00:44:34] their version of eternal life. Their progeny, their seed that would go on to the future. They
[00:44:41] didn't have this kind of geography book of heaven hell all these other places that we have today.
[00:44:49] Yeah yeah. When you get to the new testament the word that is most often translated as hell
[00:44:55] is the Greek word Gehenna which is a place that you can go to i've been there it's um it's on
[00:45:06] i believe the western side uh it's a valley outside of Jerusalem and there's a park there now with
[00:45:15] sidewalks and people walk their dogs and it's nice but back in the day that valley
[00:45:23] was where the Babylonians um sacrificed children to the god mulluck. And so the Jews rightfully
[00:45:34] wanted to dishonor that place and so what do you do when there's a place you want to honor
[00:45:41] you put up a statue or something like that uh a museum. What do you do when there's a place you
[00:45:47] want to dishonor? For them they turned it into a garbage dump. It was the place where all the
[00:45:56] refuse of the city would go and in particular also a heap where they would throw the bodies
[00:46:05] of convicts and poppers who couldn't afford graves for themselves just like garbage dumps today
[00:46:16] Gehenna was constantly burning. Fires were constantly breaking out there was it was always covered with
[00:46:23] smoke and there were there was a real problem with wild dogs in the ancient Middle East. Okay
[00:46:33] and especially where you have dead bodies lying around the wild dogs would come and fight over
[00:46:40] the bodies and uh show or as we say nash their teeth at one another in order to fight over the bodies
[00:46:53] by that same token. You have these people who are being thrown there after they die, their wives
[00:47:00] their family members on and so forth would come out to Gehenna to mourn their dead. Hence you have
[00:47:08] this place of outer darkness where there's fire and where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
[00:47:19] Do you see how that works? That this is an actual place that he was talking about that he was
[00:47:25] referring to that he wasn't describing an eternal state of torment after life. He was describing
[00:47:42] the effects of living the wrong kind of life now. The other word that's often translated as
[00:47:54] how simply the Greek word Hades. Hades has a long history in Greek mythology and the reason
[00:48:09] the biblical authors use that was just to try to form a connection point with their audience.
[00:48:15] We don't really think that um in the Christian hell you're going to cross the river sticks
[00:48:21] in order to get there right or that there is a three headed dog named Cerberus um or that you'll see
[00:48:30] Cicifus rolling his his rock up his mountain so and so forth. And even in Hades you don't have
[00:48:38] eternal torture the same way we talk about it in hell. There are nice places in Hades there's the
[00:48:45] Elysian fields where you come and contemplate love and do all these wonderful things. The point
[00:48:53] is is that it's all poetry to describe um realities that are just too deep for words
[00:49:02] and in doing so then you know poetry has to be um a little obtuse right? A poetry has to be a
[00:49:12] little bit vague and over over time people have taken advantage of that vagueness
[00:49:20] in used hell which actually is a Nordic word. It comes from the Norse realm of Niffle Hell
[00:49:29] which is cold it's not even hot and um we just slap the word hell on everything and tell people
[00:49:37] that it's torment forever and uh yeah because that's what you do when you want to manipulate people.
[00:49:46] Mm. Um the truth is there's nothing like the word eternal. Uh doesn't really mean eternal
[00:49:57] it's the word Ionios. It's the the Greek word for the we know of as Ion it means of the age
[00:50:07] in in the same way you know so you'll read about eternal punishment in the New Testament.
[00:50:13] Well that word punishment means something closer to pruning right? Means chastisement
[00:50:24] it's it's it's there's a rehabilitation aspect to it and that's what we're missing in our
[00:50:32] interpretation of those passages today that that whatever it is that's on the other side of the grave
[00:50:40] that Jesus is trying to warn us about whatever whatever that bad thing is that pain is
[00:50:47] it's about rehabilitation it's about growth it's about becoming something better than you are today
[00:50:56] it's not about condemnation it's not about torture it's not about torment.
[00:51:02] Mm. See I like that message so what so okay so let me let me put it to you this way then um
[00:51:10] What then do you say then to folks who they I see that's
[00:51:14] that's what Paul was talking about in the end times is going to be these people who try to lead you
[00:51:19] astray and they're going to send you straight to hell yeah and Jesus says why it is the
[00:51:24] the past of destruction but narrow is the way right and so people kind of proof text these things
[00:51:29] but I'd be curious like what is your response into that I think most of my listenership is
[00:51:34] is yeah I've been doing this now for going on my sixth year. Oh yeah. So there you know
[00:51:38] they know what they're not listening to this one. No, they listen to them but they are
[00:51:45] no right but they're we're preaching to the choir but at the same time I know we all know people
[00:51:49] right in our circles right who will be like yeah dude what are you talking about
[00:51:55] and that's that's exactly what I would expect um there will be people that call us heretics
[00:52:02] there will be people that say that we are leading them astray um but my challenge to them is okay
[00:52:12] first of all do you know how great works have you learned that have you ever read the Bible and
[00:52:19] its original language have you taken the time you know if Christianity is so important
[00:52:26] we ought to expect that our leaders at least know how to interact with it on its own terms right
[00:52:36] in second of all like there's just nothing you can do like that that's how that's why
[00:52:42] and I'm not saying anything new right now okay yeah this isn't like a newfangled idea
[00:52:50] this has always been there it's just that it has been pushed aside and covered over and then at times
[00:53:01] fully um uh smothered out so that the masses don't even get to hear it there's even a place
[00:53:12] if you know John Chrysostom I've heard yes same John Chrysostom one of my favorite saints
[00:53:19] um there is a time in but he believed in eternal hell and he preached about an eternal hell
[00:53:25] but there's a point in one of his letters to one of his buddies where it almost he sounds like
[00:53:32] he's he saying we all uh I can't remember the quote but it's it's about how there is a greater
[00:53:40] mercy and he makes it sound as if he knows that no one's going to be condemned forever
[00:53:52] but he doesn't know he feels like it might be a bad idea to tell people that
[00:54:02] because it might cause some like moral license on their point they may say well if I'm not if
[00:54:08] there's no chance I'm going to hell then you know screw it I'll just live my life however I want to
[00:54:14] live it I guess I'm at the point now where I can say yeah that might be true um but I think people
[00:54:26] can make up their mind for themselves yeah and they don't need me to police what they know and
[00:54:32] what they don't know especially as a preacher yeah yeah okay so this so okay so this is this is good
[00:54:40] I like this so I gotta I man I got so many questions but let me let me start with this one so
[00:54:43] what then do you say to someone who says so then what do we do what what is the after life what
[00:54:47] if we what are we're not a Christian what if we're you know an atheist what if we're not so
[00:54:52] what if we're humanist uh you know like yeah wow we're gonna be lost in this purgatory
[00:54:56] old space and yeah I'd be I'd be curious that you thought and again I'm just coming from yeah some
[00:55:02] of the research that I've done on religious interactions and whatnot and you know all these
[00:55:06] intersections it's just some of the responses that I've gotten uh not also including just stuff
[00:55:11] that I you know in classrooms that students will bring up but I'd be curious what your take is on
[00:55:16] all that for me like let's say you're a secular person um and you're just not interested in the whole
[00:55:22] religion thing number one there's probably a good reason for that if you're an American okay um
[00:55:28] most of the really seriously secular people I know have had really terrible experiences with church
[00:55:37] because church is done really badly in a lot of places and so my response to those person to
[00:55:46] those people isn't like oh well you better get your act together my responses look you do you
[00:55:54] you know um I'm sorry for the pain that the church has caused but you live your life and um
[00:56:03] what I want them to know is that my religion I think as it's properly taught does not
[00:56:14] not teach that they're going to have to suffer um but rather that all of us myself included
[00:56:27] will go through and this is what I when I put all the poetry of the New Testament the Old Testament
[00:56:36] together and I talk about this in the book and I I'm very careful about how like I construct all of
[00:56:42] this when I put it all together what I see the the image that I think is trying to be conveyed
[00:56:50] over thousands of years that it took to write the Bible is that well 1500 um is that uh
[00:57:01] we are all headed for a period of purification that we are all headed
[00:57:11] for a period of um uh kind of like like metallurgy like smelting um think of purifying gold in
[00:57:23] fact that's what brimstone is brimstone is sulfur when they talk about fire and brimstone yeah
[00:57:30] brimstone is all about you you put it in to molten gold and that creates the slag of all the
[00:57:37] impurities and then you can scoop out the slags all you have left is is pure gold or pure silver
[00:57:43] we all need that because none of us is pure none of us are we're all good because god created
[00:57:53] us good but we all have selfishness we all have greed um we all have hatred I think a lot
[00:58:02] people don't like to admit to hating other people but um I think we all have hatred and we all need
[00:58:10] to learn how to love and I think whatever that purification is it's coming first all
[00:58:18] is about getting us to a point where we can love like god loves if that makes sense yeah yeah um
[00:58:29] love completely love fully love self-sacrificially um which is really hard to do in this life
[00:58:39] but he's gonna give us some help in the next life I think um this is powerful stuff I mean I think uh
[00:58:48] right that's a sense of freedom in this uh yeah no on well I'm I'll speak for myself I say for sure
[00:58:57] this is a sense of freedom I think when I first began on my kind of journey to you know as they
[00:59:03] now calling deconstruction uh hum sure you know there was a sense of fear that sat in on me
[00:59:11] of all the times right that I was told like oh you stray away you've backslidden um these demons are
[00:59:17] gonna come out here they're gonna get you um it's it's it's interesting uh but I would also say
[00:59:24] and one of the questions I wanted to ask was like particularly with church attendance and uh you
[00:59:30] know we have all these new studies right barna is still putting stuff out and still talking about how
[00:59:34] we got to bring them in we got to bring them in we're gonna reach this new generation I mean they've
[00:59:37] been saying that for 23 years since the millennials right yeah but I'd be curious like with that
[00:59:45] had um the church attendance declining like like how do you how does this impact people's views
[00:59:50] then on hell uh you know yeah it's a tough thing I mean is a is a clergy person myself
[00:59:58] you know all churches are declining all all traditions all the you have some slop here and there where
[01:00:06] this congregation will grow but really they're mostly taking people from this other congregation
[01:00:12] and so on and so forth Christianity on the whole on the whole is declining in America yeah
[01:00:19] and part of that is predictable in I haven't read a good scholarly view of why but for whatever
[01:00:29] reason it seems that post-industrial societies simply become less religious hmm I don't know if
[01:00:39] that's because of material prosperity and you also see in minority communities that aren't given
[01:00:48] the same access to the prosperity as other as majority communities yeah you see uh religious belief
[01:00:57] hold on for much longer so I don't know if it has something to do with with how we divide up
[01:01:05] the materiality or not um but because of that then there becomes a desperation
[01:01:14] among some not all among some pastors among some churches among some denominations
[01:01:23] to hold on to what they have okay right and so if you want to hold on to the people are there
[01:01:30] that are there and you don't want them to stray then your instinct is going to be
[01:01:37] to warn them a lot more and for your warnings to become much more dire and much more serious much more
[01:01:48] painful I'm thankful that the united Methodist Church is not like that that most of our churches
[01:01:57] don't resort to that for me I'm in a place in my life and in my career as a clergy person
[01:02:06] where I accept that our religion is in decline in this society and I accept that in some in some cases
[01:02:19] we deserve it right because we have not loved people appropriately we have not built communities
[01:02:28] of justice and peace we have not done the things that we were supposed to do so in that respect
[01:02:37] you got to say guilty as charged my hope is is that Christianity will continue to evolve
[01:02:46] that it will continue to become more loving more open more accepting and that as that happens
[01:02:56] it will become uh more attractive because our communities will be places of hope and peace and
[01:03:07] quality and I think getting rid of this antiquated notion of eternal torment might be an important step
[01:03:22] in that process. Mmm mmm mmm mmm um my gosh I mean this is this is powerful stuff again I again the
[01:03:32] word that just keeps coming to me is just you know the freedom of this um I too hope that you know
[01:03:38] things continue to merge and develop um and evolve if you will I think um I think you don't get
[01:03:48] me wrong like I think I think church is awesome I think everyone should go to church if they can find
[01:03:55] a church where they are loved and accepted and where everyone is made to feel welcome um
[01:04:02] with that I think life is so much better lived in the context of a life-giving community
[01:04:11] and what scares me you know if you're a Christian then that thing for you was church um if you're
[01:04:19] if you're Jewish then that thing is a synagogue if you're Muslim then that is a mosque whatever it is
[01:04:25] um what scares me are the people that try to do life alone mmm that it's just them uh as we say in
[01:04:34] the church contra mondum that's Latin for against the world without a community of faith I was just
[01:04:43] preaching on this passage about um a healing of a paralyzed man and I think Matthew 9
[01:04:52] and Jesus was actually Jesus didn't even want to heal him he wasn't gonna heal him till
[01:04:58] he kind of does it out of spite against the uh the the scribes that are there but um it's interesting
[01:05:07] that that he wasn't intending to heal him because the man is on a mat that's being carried by his friends
[01:05:18] and the sense that I get is that that man is surrounded by a community that's willing to
[01:05:26] accommodate his vulnerability so what's the problem right we all have vulnerabilities
[01:05:35] we all have our own infirmities we all have our own weaknesses and we all need communities of
[01:05:43] love to strengthen and support us hmm hmm that's the truth that is the truth and I think that's
[01:05:52] uh something that I have yearned for in different ways I mean I think about the community I live
[01:05:59] and now it's it's a really good spot you know we have like Bach parties everybody knows everybody
[01:06:02] yeah um which is a good thing and but I don't know for me it's just it's been it's been difficult to
[01:06:09] find a church right that that does what you are talking about right you just off to one church
[01:06:14] and then it's like people figure out okay oh dance the black guy let's use him oh yeah yeah he's
[01:06:21] written books okay let's do this let's do that you know and then you get issues of race oh then
[01:06:27] you go to like for example I thought okay well let me go back to the black church let me just try
[01:06:30] different flavor well but then you got people up there talking about the homo sexuals and
[01:06:36] yeah Jesus Christ so it's the difficulty so I feel you man I'm I'm because I am definitely with you
[01:06:43] I think trying to go out alone especially in this era um is is not um yeah that's why we I mean
[01:06:52] I gotta think that's part of the reason why we have you know opiate epidemics um part of what's
[01:06:59] leading to depression suicide rates and everything people are lonely and if nothing else like
[01:07:08] Christians and Jews and Muslims maybe you know maybe we got some serious differences but one
[01:07:15] thing that we all agree with is the need to be surrounded by a loving community and for those who
[01:07:24] have been hurt by the church for those who have been harmed by the church for those who've been
[01:07:29] traumatized by the church yeah please hear me say I do not blame you for not coming back to church
[01:07:41] um we have probably ruined religion for some people um but what I do help is that you will find
[01:07:54] your tribe your people um and I don't mean people who share simply your political ideology or people
[01:08:03] who share your um desire for justice those things are good but I'm talking about people who will
[01:08:10] bring you food when you're sick mm-hmm mm-hmm you know um people who will take care of your pets if
[01:08:18] you have to be in the hospital or who can let you use your their car if yours breaks down yeah
[01:08:25] those are the kind of people we all need who hey man to that hey man to that man that's uh yeah
[01:08:32] that's a good word right there man so what what can we do to create like meaningful change uh with
[01:08:38] how we use and view hell um and I know that's a you know it's a load of question but I just be curious
[01:08:44] as we think about it right you got all these conspiracy theories the leader the the
[01:08:48] the lizard people you got to know uh you know the the government is not even saying hey we got
[01:08:53] UFOs yeah okay UFOs are real you know okay um but I would be curious to see you know like as
[01:09:01] we think about moving forward I think about just you know hearing Chicago alone you know uh there's
[01:09:07] been you know a 490 percent increase in car jacking just over the last wow wow you know uh I think
[01:09:14] about you know every time I get you know I get headlights I use this little thing called citizens
[01:09:18] app and it tells me like hey this person two blocks was just shot I mean so they just continue
[01:09:23] just kind of wheel of violence and I know I get it I hear it's a sick people yeah but dance
[01:09:27] always been around I get it's always been around and I get that there's the highlight that happens
[01:09:32] with social media and these apps and stuff like that my point being is that there's a lot of tension
[01:09:38] in the air right now um side be curious from from a pastoral perspective from a clergy
[01:09:45] clergy perspective man what are what are we doing to move forward especially in relation to this
[01:09:49] hell because you got a lot of people talking about in times right now too right yeah and well that's
[01:09:54] that's the messed up part is that uh people use the afterlife and people use the end times
[01:10:02] almost is a way to distract themselves from the problems that are going on right in front of them
[01:10:08] right so like you saw it with Israel and Palestine right on social media um the moment
[01:10:18] uh the war started between Israel and Palestine there were Christians all over social media saying
[01:10:23] oh this is it this is the end times right it's starting this is the prophecy right here this is how
[01:10:30] we do this and the thing is is that they're they're they're using that almost as an opiate for themselves
[01:10:39] they're using it to distract themselves from the degree of tragedy that they are watching unfold
[01:10:48] before them this is what we saw with QAnon during the pandemic right this is why we saw so many
[01:10:57] conspiracy theories pop up during that time because people really were scared and when you're scared
[01:11:06] you want to know what's going on and all kinds of people will be quick to tell you that they know
[01:11:18] what's going on that they know how to keep yourself safe they know how to keep your family safe
[01:11:25] they know this they know that the first thing that I think is the task of any clergy person
[01:11:36] um is to help their community mourn right and so mourn your dead mourn the difficult things that
[01:11:48] are going on around you mourn the difficult things that are happening in the world but see them
[01:11:55] clearly don't immediately jump to is this person in heaven or hell don't immediately jump to
[01:12:05] okay is Israel and Palestine the start of the end times instead mourn and try to appreciate
[01:12:15] the gravity of the tragedy that is in front of you right and and really deal with that um
[01:12:27] as clergy I think that we should not use the term hell quite so much
[01:12:37] um instead I I encourage clergy people to do the hard work of actually using the Greek and Hebrew
[01:12:46] words and then teaching their congregations about what those things mean right like Gehenna we just
[01:12:53] talked about the garbage dump the the dogs and as I rich history in layers of meaning yeah um in
[01:13:02] the same way like when when clergy are confronted with end of life issues when when people pass away
[01:13:12] we need to be as brazenly universalist as we can um we should all be bringing all the scriptures
[01:13:21] that talk of God's love and grace and forgiveness to bear on those who are mourning loved ones
[01:13:29] regardless of whether or not that loved one died as a faithful church member or not or
[01:13:37] or whoever in that moment that mother that brother that spouse that whoever is mourning and they
[01:13:45] need to be comforted um for lay people uh that's non-clergy folks I mean I think
[01:13:58] you need to find yourself in a place where you need to work to find a community uh where all
[01:14:08] people are loved were all people are welcome and where the community does not use the condemnation
[01:14:18] of other people as the reason for its own existence does that makes yeah
[01:14:25] that if your community is based on being better and that one or those kinds of people
[01:14:37] then it's time to to find a new community uh find yourself a community where
[01:14:45] everyone acknowledges that everyone struggles that everyone is having a hard time with life
[01:14:54] that we are all facing um intractable problems and use that as the cohesive glue that binds you
[01:15:03] together not your joint condemnation and disgust for this group of people out there who
[01:15:18] doesn't live life or have sex the way you think they should in some plate there's a there's
[01:15:24] do you know Terry Eagleton can't say that he's across that he's uh he's a literary critic from England
[01:15:32] and he uses when he talks about evangelical Christianity he calls it the Christian sex cult
[01:15:42] okay and what he means by that is it's become and in some places it is becoming a religion that
[01:15:51] is based almost entirely on policing what people do with their genitals
[01:15:57] and that's ridiculous isn't it though if Christianity is just about how you have sex or who you
[01:16:05] have sex with then you are missing so much of what this 2000 year tradition has to offer you
[01:16:17] woo that's a word right there man that is a word right there uh folks the book is holy hell a case
[01:16:26] against the eternal damnation i've been speaking with Derek the author of this book and I have
[01:16:32] just been like wow this is this is this is good shit right here man um working folks find you sir
[01:16:40] working working they get a hold of you bring out and you know get you that horror area
[01:16:45] your time that's the whole nine man yeah you can find the book anywhere where books are sold it
[01:16:51] doesn't come out for a while comes out in February but you can pre-order now and then it'll
[01:16:58] hit your door and it'll be like a little surprise present to yourself um you can also find me on
[01:17:06] social media mostly on facebook i'm not a big twitter person or ex person whatever um
[01:17:13] um and i i have a uh uh ten episode podcast called cross over q okay that i recorded in the aftermath of
[01:17:27] the um uh attack on the capital building on january 6th that's all about confronting the
[01:17:35] lives of q anon from a Christian perspective i specifically recorded that whole season um as uh
[01:17:45] as a way to help people who have family members who are conspiracy theorists people who've lost
[01:17:52] friends down the rabbit hole as we say of conspiracy theory there is um there's a lot of good stuff
[01:17:59] on there and we talk about a lot of things um and the biggest thing that we talk about is how to help
[01:18:06] people who have been kind of subsumed by the conspiratorial atmosphere of our society hmm so let's
[01:18:16] call cross over q cross over q all right i will put those in the show notes i'm assuming it's on
[01:18:22] all available platforms all available platforms that's that's that's the way that's the way it is
[01:18:27] i will put those in the show notes whitehatchpodcast.com check it out full-faint faith
[01:18:33] Derek thank you so much today we've barely skimmed the surface but i thank you for taking the time
[01:18:38] out this has been enlightening uh and i honestly an encouraging conversation uh with you today so
[01:18:44] thank you for good for breaking this down and thank you for writing this book thank you for doing
[01:18:49] what you do Daniel i i i wasn't a listener um and then i i found out that you wanted to talk about the
[01:18:58] book so i listened to like ten episodes and you are doing the lord's work so to speak oh my god
[01:19:05] i tell you it's really good thank you it's really something i take that man i take them based off
[01:19:12] of what i've been told before so i'll take that i appreciate this clergy person loves you
[01:19:18] what's what you're doing i love it man
[01:19:24] hey everyone i'm Jessica from the leaving the village podcast i wanted to take a moment to say
[01:19:30] thank you for tuning into this show we're so grateful that you've decided to spend your time with us
[01:19:35] seriously dan gale cathleen nate scott and the rest of us here at the don'tless media collective
[01:19:42] couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without your support
[01:19:46] i'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation right now there are some great
[01:19:51] discussions happening over in the don'tless media collective discord server if you're interested
[01:19:57] in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing the oppressive traditions they came
[01:20:01] from please feel free to hop onto the server if you don't know what discord is it's a place where
[01:20:07] communities can gather online for chatting on a wide variety of topics in our discord server
[01:20:13] we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations some meme sharing therapeutic venting
[01:20:19] about whatever religious bulls**t you're currently dealing with and even the channel specifically
[01:20:24] devoted to talking about the latest episode of the podcast you're listening to right now
[01:20:29] i hope you'll join us you can log in directly to the don'tless server by clicking on the link
[01:20:34] in the show notes or heading to don'tless.fm and clicking on the link in the top banner see you there