[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.
[00:00:30] You remind me of my Smen.
[00:00:32] Joe Biden last night in the debate, he's not even a human being.
[00:00:35] Donald Trump and the Migra Republicans represented extremism.
[00:00:39] Can you imagine repatriating all the black Americans that had to spoke about to Africa?
[00:00:44] Now this is the evidence. You want me to make an act of faith, risking myself, my wife, my woman, my sister, my children, on some idealism which you assure me just to America, which I have never seen.
[00:00:58] This is Profane Faith, a podcast that engages faith on the margins. Faith that has been labeled profane, non-conformist, or even out there.
[00:01:08] We'll be exploring the intersections of the sacred, secular and profane defined God. And look, we won't be trying to answer difficult questions.
[00:01:17] Rather, we'll be engaging them in asking better ones regarding faith, race, gender, and religion. I'll be your host, Daniel White Hodge.
[00:01:28] What's good, fam? What's good? What's good? How's it hanging? How's it going? Oh, what's popping? All the things. All the things. Welcome back to Profane Faith.
[00:01:41] This is your first time listening. Thank you so much for subscribing or not subscribing. Just checking us out.
[00:01:46] Appreciate that. It's good to have your support. So thank you for listening.
[00:01:51] Check out other episodes. Welcome to one of the longest seasons ever. This is I just realized we overlapped here.
[00:02:00] We laughed each other or laughed at the season. So to speak, started a year ago with season seven after taking a break.
[00:02:08] And because we've shifted now to having episodes every other week, it goes longer.
[00:02:17] Yeah, once upon a time back in the day, I used to release episodes every week. And you know, we'd go for about, I don't know, 24 or 26 episodes, give or take a few, you know, with breaks for either spring break or holidays and whatnot.
[00:02:36] And then break out. So I'm still trying to figure out, you know, what this break may be. I've got some other podcast interviews, you know, lining up people are getting hold of me.
[00:02:45] Some people putting out some good books like the guests I have on the show today.
[00:02:49] And so I'm, you know, I'm just going to keep them going. Just going to keep them going. Like I said before, I might move to just having them be episodes as opposed to seasons and whatnot.
[00:02:59] But we'll see, we'll see. Right now it's just me and if y'all out there have ideas, want to have a brother out with marketing and all that, you know, just just let a brother know, let me know, let me know.
[00:03:11] Wow. Well, there's a lot of things going on these days. I mean, there always is like I say a lot.
[00:03:21] But yeah, the intersections of nationalism, particularly Christian nationalism and politics is at a just nauseous level to put it nicely.
[00:03:34] As you know, at the time of recording this, you know, we had a big super Tuesday, Nikki Haley dropped out. At least that's what she announced today.
[00:03:45] And, you know, I just clearing the way for Trump. I think it speaks a lot to what that side of ideology is looking for. Right?
[00:03:59] Because if that was really almost any other person, you know, black Latinx woman.
[00:04:06] I mean, just think about the stuff that they were talking about with Hillary, right? And her emails. And all the things that are happening right now, just with all the charges that Trump has against him.
[00:04:19] So yeah, I mean, it's just interesting. Those of you who know, you know, to notice and just to kind of see where things are at.
[00:04:28] Yeah, I am, you know, like I said, I'm constantly curious about where we find ourselves. When this is the type of person that is being put forward by a what claims to be a legitimate political party.
[00:04:41] And insists on ignoring scholars, scientists, people who are experts who have dedicated their entire lives at looking at something and just ignore them for somebody who is a known, known crook, known liar, known thief.
[00:05:00] I mean, this is not even in his presidency, but just look at his business practices. But here we are. Here we are, right? This cat has got the nomination. And I'm not thrilled with Biden either.
[00:05:11] I think this cat has got some problems, man. I mean, he always did have problems, but even more so. So, you know, we got some problems ahead of us.
[00:05:23] And we do, I mean, we know that we know that folks who are who are in the struggle, who are in the fight, who are in any kind of movement.
[00:05:31] No, there's some, there's some real rough waters ahead. And I don't know what that's going to bring.
[00:05:37] I think if Trump is elected this November as the time of recording this here in the year of our lower 2024, you know, he's already talked about, you know, mass deportations,
[00:05:48] you know, a national federal ban on abortion. And that's just to begin with, right? That we all know that abortion has really nothing to do with abortion.
[00:05:58] Because when you take away the rights of women's basic health needs, when you vote against school meals and school and won't vote against minimum wage, when you vote against basic living essences,
[00:06:16] that people need, I know you're not pro-life. You're not, you know, this is just about controlling women. This is about controlling.
[00:06:25] Because can you imagine if we had every male that turned 18 had to get a vasectomy, right?
[00:06:32] Because, you know, they're reversible and then when they've shown to us that they are worthy of being a man and being in a don't have any kid, then they can have it reversed
[00:06:43] and they can have, you know, a kid. Can you imagine if we did that? But that is the equivalent of what we're saying to women.
[00:06:51] And it's insane. It is insane. And so you can only imagine those things will be doubled.
[00:06:58] And if you're in the LGBTQ a fam, I mean, you might as well, you know, get to get to the curve because there is a strong sense right that, you know, even same sex marriage will get repealed.
[00:07:13] And we have a Supreme Court that is clearly bought, clearly on the on the on the take. And I'm not just making this up. Do do do you do some reading?
[00:07:25] Go look at just Clarence Thomas and some of these other justice Robert, some of these other folks who have these multi billion dollar,
[00:07:33] Pat groups that are eat that are basically paying them off. That's exactly what it's happening.
[00:07:43] So yeah, I mean, it's just it's just some shit. So, and I'm not saying I'm going to vote for by it. And I'm just simply saying that if Trump is in office,
[00:07:52] it will be, it'll be doomsday for a lot of different things. I mean, we can kiss anything DEI goodbye.
[00:08:00] I mean, and that's kind of already happening now. Biden didn't reverse any of the stuff that that Trump did away with with DEI.
[00:08:09] I mean, people who do that is for living are still struggling. I mean, that's a really, really treacherous nefarious space to be in right now, especially on college campuses.
[00:08:20] And if you stand against the Israel, Palestine war, even more so.
[00:08:29] So that's just a lot. That's just a lot. And I don't like I said before, I don't think this is the end of the world.
[00:08:34] I don't think God is coming back. But I do think it's going to be a reshifting of how we look at society.
[00:08:41] And so, yeah, that being said, again, I, you know, I mean, in any predictions. I had some point I do want to do a show on, you know, what does it look like with the collapse of society?
[00:08:51] Not the end of the world, not even the end of like human life per se, but just the collapse of Western society.
[00:09:00] And, you know, we can look to Haiti. You're not sure of what was going on in Haiti. There's some shit going on in Haiti. It's been going on right in Haiti.
[00:09:09] If you know historically, first black nation or with colonized black, you know, country island, if you will, back in the day and in the time of the transatlantic safe trade that was able to assert its independence by taking over.
[00:09:26] So there's a lot of history there. But right now they're in a world of hurt.
[00:09:30] Years of mismanagement of funds, years of colonization has ended to where you know, now you have militia groups running basically the entire government.
[00:09:41] And so I know Haiti now has been like looking to Kenya to help out.
[00:09:46] I don't know what the US does. US does very little for, you know, nations of color.
[00:09:51] And I don't expect Biden to do much if anything other than just say, hey, we support you right because damn sure ain't sending him the kind of money that they're sending Ukraine.
[00:10:01] And, you know, Israel. So here we are fam. You know, it's yeah, I think when the law subsides, you get, you know, people who are lawless, who will come out.
[00:10:13] Hopefully it doesn't turn into the wild west, you know, the United States is a bigger place.
[00:10:18] But that element of lawlessness I feel that because then it opens up the doors to a lot of different things.
[00:10:26] It opens up door to strong man policies, strong man politics, right? Someone who can come in and say, I can fix this.
[00:10:32] Give me the power and I will, I'll give it back, right? But I can fix this.
[00:10:39] So yeah, just like I said, a lot of stuff. A lot of shit that we got to kind of unpack and deal with.
[00:10:46] But let me get to my guest. Let me get to my guest. I appreciate his work in what he's doing.
[00:10:54] Brother Greg is out here doing it and talks a lot about the history of racism, redlining brother Greg Jarell.
[00:11:05] Let's put out a book our trespasses white churches and the taking of American neighborhoods.
[00:11:12] I ain't go front. I got the he actually reached out to me and sent me the cover of the book.
[00:11:17] And you know, I mean, not to be disrespectful, but at my initial thought was like, oh man, another white guy writing on what to do in the race.
[00:11:26] And here's the ministry part of it. And then at the end, it's all fluff and feathers with Jesus and this and that.
[00:11:32] But then I saw the great Chanika, Dr. Chanika Walker Barnes was wrote the forward.
[00:11:37] And there was some really great endorsements by people that I really respect and admire.
[00:11:41] And I was like, all right, let me get this cat a chance. Let me see what's going on.
[00:11:48] You know, because I do think there are white voices out there really making a difference.
[00:11:53] Yes, I know we try to decent or whiteness in general, not white people but whiteness and white supremacy.
[00:12:00] But I do believe Greg has got some good material. So yeah, this is a great talk.
[00:12:05] I mean, just a history of what has happened in some of our communities.
[00:12:09] He lays his book out way like a history book.
[00:12:13] You really got to check this thing out. It's not like, oh, here's my story.
[00:12:17] It's a white guy discovering race. No, no, no, these are facts. These are hardline notes.
[00:12:22] So this is going to be good. Greg is a cultural organizer with QC family tree in the enderly park neighborhood of Charlotte, North Carolina.
[00:12:31] He works with words and music to impact housing and neighborhood justice issues.
[00:12:36] Daryl White writes about theology and history in co leads Carolina social music clubs musician popular jazz band.
[00:12:43] He and his wife, Helms are ordained ministers and are raising two sons.
[00:12:47] He's also the author of two other books. His book are trespasses white churches in the taking of American neighborhoods has put out by fortress.
[00:12:55] And that's one. It's a wide acclaim for a lucid storytelling and new research.
[00:13:00] He's also written widely, including you know with sojourners the bitter southerner, the Charlotte observer.
[00:13:07] He's a regular contributor to the Baptist news global and he frequently speaks on teachers and speeches and preachers on place race and faith.
[00:13:17] I'm happy to introduce and have this conversation with brother Greg.
[00:13:21] And I hope you enjoy it as well and go check out his book. All right.
[00:13:26] All right.
[00:13:33] Cool, cool, cool. Well Greg, thank you for making time for coming on the show here works. We're excited to have you today.
[00:13:40] Yeah, thanks for having me, Dan. I appreciate it. I'm looking forward to talk to you.
[00:13:44] Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, let me start this thing off, man. What's been happening from birth to now? What is what is who?
[00:13:50] Who is Greg? How has Greg become? Who Greg J is?
[00:13:54] Yeah, yeah. So let's see Greg Gerald grew up in the suburbs of Raleigh.
[00:14:01] Okay. Kind of a little bit outside of Raleigh near a little tobacco town called Fuqua, Verena.
[00:14:07] Okay.
[00:14:08] As a college student at Appalachian State through the Baptist campus ministry there.
[00:14:15] I wound up spending a couple of summers in East St. Louis, Illinois, which is quite unlike Fuqua, Verena, North Carolina.
[00:14:23] And it really changed the trajectory of my life.
[00:14:30] And so we went from there to seminary and have spent the past 20 years living in what started off like a Catholic worker, kind of community in Charlotte, North Carolina.
[00:14:43] So in a neighborhood that had caught the spillover of urban renewal years and years of disinvestment, the brutality of the policing system, you know, all the things that we associate with racism and white supremacy within this society.
[00:15:03] And so, you know, I've had to get a reeducation over the past 20 years while I've lived here.
[00:15:11] And I've also tried to do a lot of work not just in that reeducation but also in really understanding how did my place come to be the way it is this neighborhood?
[00:15:23] How do I understand my own role, my own kind of place within that story?
[00:15:31] So, you know, that's like the quick sweeping arc of my life grew up in a Southern Baptist context.
[00:15:39] Okay.
[00:15:40] Nowadays, the Southern Baptist probably wouldn't want much to do with me.
[00:15:46] I'm affiliated with the Alliance of Baptist which is kind of a progressive Baptist group.
[00:15:51] Okay.
[00:15:53] What, tell me a little bit. You said, you know, changing the trajectory of your life.
[00:15:57] Tell me a little bit about that, man.
[00:15:59] What is, what are some things that you've read and you've encountered that you're just like, I need to change some things up that really led you to, you know, doing this, this manuscript together?
[00:16:09] Yes.
[00:16:11] So, I think, you know, part of it was waking up to understanding my own, my own like place in the world.
[00:16:22] Yeah.
[00:16:23] In terms of race and gender and class, the things that middle class white guy has been trained not to see as sort of part of being socialized into into that world.
[00:16:37] And so, living in a living cross culturally living in a different racial and class kind of context really began to confirm it with a lot of that stuff.
[00:16:47] And so I had to go and do my homework. You know, I had to read, read and study and learn and change the media that I was consuming and all these sorts of things to begin to understand the world around me and my own place in it.
[00:16:58] So, you know, reading all the James Baldwin that I could get my hands on was maybe one of the introductions to that but certainly not the only source.
[00:17:07] Okay.
[00:17:08] All right. Yeah.
[00:17:09] I've been a teacher in the undergrad level and so I try to introduce a lot of students to a James Baldwin.
[00:17:15] They, you know, most don't know who he is and enter their defense.
[00:17:19] I get that, you know, a lot of schools don't teach that.
[00:17:24] I mean, all the stuff I know on African American history, I learned out of high school.
[00:17:28] Right.
[00:17:29] Yeah.
[00:17:30] Yeah.
[00:17:31] So where do you find yourself now, man?
[00:17:33] In terms of just work in terms of just the situation that we are in in terms of the country and you know, particularly your locality and where you're at.
[00:17:44] Yeah.
[00:17:45] So a lot of my work over the past eight or 10 years has been around housing and sort of started off as we could see the very beginning edges of gentrification creeping towards our neighborhood and, you know, understanding the way that that was one of the what the writer Christina Sharp calls one of slavery's after lives, the ways that you know why supremacy continues to be reinvented.
[00:18:12] And so trying to figure out how do we get ahead of this?
[00:18:15] How do we help to create a foothold, you know, holding people to hold ground.
[00:18:23] And so that so part of that has been like starting a community land trust that now is a separate organization from the organization that I helped to run.
[00:18:33] Part of that has been my own work as like an independent scholar that's led to this manuscript.
[00:18:39] Trying to help people to put language to the way that Christian faith has been in the way that white Christian faith has been infested with kind of this conquest mentality narrative has been hidden into a lot of our resources.
[00:18:56] Into our incomes into the way that we risk pressure to our theological understandings.
[00:19:02] So one of the things that I learned and sort of this study of history was it was Christians here who were making urban renewal happen.
[00:19:11] We look around me now at this gentrifying neighborhood, it's always really nice white Christians who come in and start these new nonprofits and all of a sudden, you know, the neighborhood's gone right.
[00:19:24] And so it's we're still operating from the same script.
[00:19:28] The details are kind of different now, but the trajectory is the same.
[00:19:33] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:34] Well, I do and I do find that interesting, you know, in regards to I mean, hence the title of your book which is you know, peaked my interest in regards to to that in that gentrification.
[00:19:46] How does one begin to go about that because you hear this a lot right you hear this in regards to neighborhoods shifting people building highways do it.
[00:19:56] People put in a new me here in Chicago the entire cabrini green, you know, housing complex was, you know, just wiped out right and so all those people are displaced.
[00:20:06] And we're seeing some of these things, you know, happen irregardless if you know if it's people from the church or whatever moving.
[00:20:11] But how do you how does one begin to kind of get involved in this and actually affect sustainable change? If that makes sense.
[00:20:19] Yeah, yeah, absolutely makes sense.
[00:20:23] I mean, you know, the sustainable changes that we need start with policy.
[00:20:29] Right.
[00:20:30] The so a lot while nonprofit efforts and things like the community land trusts, like those are really important ways of helping to get a small amount of ground and hold on to it without the large scale changes that are possible through policies.
[00:20:44] Then it's hard to you know, it's hard to make that change sustainable.
[00:20:50] And so, you know, urban renewal as I've written about was a set of policies.
[00:20:55] And, you know, if we created those policies that built highways through black neighborhoods in particular, then we can also create policies that do the opposite that have the opposite effect.
[00:21:07] So I think those sorts of policies that help to to really work the way that we think about land and land ownership.
[00:21:16] Not in possessive possessive sense necessarily, but in more like a common goods sort of sense.
[00:21:23] How do we create those kinds of things think policies that make home ownership more diffuse so that more people are able to participate in it.
[00:21:32] It's not a perfect way of going about things, but it does create larger numbers of stakeholders, people who have a say when they're when their landowners that kind of.
[00:21:43] Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, yeah, land ownership, you know, as far as old as it is in terms of the tradition, it still remains when, you know, a big part of just building legacy and building wealth.
[00:21:59] So as a white male, sis hat I'm imagining what how do you see your role in your in particularly with where we see ourselves.
[00:22:09] It's 2024 and you know, we got an election year and you know that everything's ramping up in terms of just, you know, all the rhetoric around well, I mean, and you think about just
[00:22:23] the pushback if you will with like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey, I don't know your football, but regardless, it's like there's that has made national news in regards to, you know, particularly conservative, you know, Christian folks think she is.
[00:22:39] I just read today that some Southern Baptist pastor was saying how I think it's an Oklahoma was saying that trapped Satan is leading Taylor to Mary Travis so that they can have the anti Christ, you know.
[00:22:55] Yeah, so these are the type of things I'd be curious do you run into some of that stuff man and particularly as a white male.
[00:23:01] What do you see as your role in some of these conversations and some of these some of these these are more racialized in environments?
[00:23:10] Yeah, I mean, so I think it's it's the role of white folks who have been working on consciousness to step into those places and to speak to our Kendrick.
[00:23:23] But I think we have to do so strategically like there you know that pastor that you mentioned like nobody's going to convert him and, you know, we don't need it.
[00:23:35] And also we don't need him like the tipping the tipping point it doesn't take all that many people in a country that's so seemingly kind of evenly split right.
[00:23:47] So there are there are people that we can win.
[00:23:52] And so starting I think in the places that we can make those wins and sort of dragging the other folks along to me, that's really important.
[00:24:02] I think another role and part of the work that I've tried to do you know historically is just to help folks to name like we have these silences.
[00:24:13] That have been built into the way that were racialized the way that were socialized within white communities.
[00:24:20] And to begin to give words with actual historical data to say here's the story of what's happened.
[00:24:28] And this is what it's cost we can tabulate it.
[00:24:32] So like that historical data those stories, what the archives actually show I think they can they can help us to push a little bit farther.
[00:24:48] You know by saying hey, this is real and this is how our people help to create the conditions that we're in.
[00:24:57] And now we have responsibilities because we've inherited those conditions even though we didn't create.
[00:25:03] Yeah well because that's I mean I think that's in particular in just some of the circles that you come in encounter it and I would imagine I've heard that a lot right like hey I didn't have any do slavery.
[00:25:14] I don't you know I never owned you know any of this or how does that affect me.
[00:25:19] I'm trying to think through you know the catalog of of almost a script that I've heard particularly from white males in particular but you know they don't get me wrong and you know it's white white folks in general.
[00:25:32] How have you just I mean I'm assuming.
[00:25:35] Do you still engage particularly in churches and what night and how does that what does that look like in this day and age because it feels oftentimes that feels but it is oftentimes.
[00:25:46] You enter into a church space and it's it can turn very politicized very quickly in some of these some of these spaces.
[00:25:55] So I'd be curious how you know you look at you know faith.
[00:25:58] How does faith come into to all of this?
[00:26:00] How does Christianity with its history with kind of the dominant prevalence of his you know Christianity being at least here in the United States evangelicalism and you know think about it with the Superbow.
[00:26:12] He gets us right he got these multimillion dollar commercials of Jesus.
[00:26:16] Right yeah all those millions of dollars spent on the marketing campaign for Jesus right.
[00:26:24] So the worst possible way of spending that money.
[00:26:29] I mean I think so it like we live inside this kind of competition for the narrative and that that ad campaign is a really pertinent way like that ad campaign is about de politicizing Jesus.
[00:26:44] And behind it is a very highly politically active group on the conservative side that wants to present a certain kind of de politicized image of Jesus.
[00:26:55] So to me.
[00:26:58] I think we like recognizing so we're in the we're in the competition of this creating a narrative.
[00:27:06] So how do how do we create a narrative that's really compelling.
[00:27:11] And with the inside Christian faith you know we have this conquest narrative that I've tried to point to and write about that it that is kind of overwhelming at times.
[00:27:21] But we also talk about repentance.
[00:27:25] One of the hard places that people have connecting I think is to is the difference between like an individual and a corporate sense of that.
[00:27:35] So you know I didn't own slaves is sort of a way of washing your hands.
[00:27:41] But you also didn't fight the British in the revolutionary war right and you don't have to anymore because institutions pass along both benefits and responsibilities.
[00:27:52] And so I think that people can understand that and that crafting a different story this that says hey you know repentance is actually really helpful for all of our city.
[00:28:03] For all of our country in the scenario so we have some of those theological stories or resources that we need.
[00:28:12] And again, we're not going to there are a lot of people were not going to convince but there are enough out there that we can that I think we can move the needle some.
[00:28:20] Yeah yeah yeah no man I mean I think yeah that I think that.
[00:28:26] That is an interesting you know conversation.
[00:28:29] I mean I know for me personally and I've said this on the show numerous times it's like you know after 2016 I really felt like a lot of the work that I had been doing particularly in white evangelical spaces you know really was to waste.
[00:28:40] Because it just didn't at least for me it didn't I didn't see the results that I had thought all them years that I had invested in you know to do and so I really shifted the work that I do away from any of that.
[00:28:54] So you know it's always good and encouraging to hear that folks are still out there you know trying to you know to win over.
[00:29:01] I know a one is what's his name Doug Paget has the whole I think it's I forget what this campaign is.
[00:29:11] It's coming good because that's it yeah vote common good and you know he talks a lot about you know having these conversations and I appreciate that man I I think my entry point into all of this thing was the LA uprisings you know being I consider California home and I'm not going to be a
[00:29:30] home and you know a 92 and you know that whole story and and I remember you know getting in you know having a conversation with somebody and they were like oh man you know just this stuff takes time change takes time and you know give it 30 years and we'll you know we'll be in a different spot.
[00:29:48] And I remember thinking then I'm like oh my gosh you know man 30 years that's that's a long time but yeah maybe maybe he's writing reflecting on that in 2022 and I'm like man we're soft now than we were in 1992.
[00:29:59] Yeah what keeps you going man what keeps you going and in particular I appreciate what you name in chapter one they because we hear that a lot they didn't want this day came in you know kind of this mysterious so I wanted to tie that in is is as well but what what keeps you going we'll start there.
[00:30:16] You know so I've gotten to for better or for worse you know the choices I've made living as a white guy in a black neighborhood and they're they're kind of fraught decisions right but this is where I am and for better for worse like there are people that I deeply love who deeply love me
[00:30:41] and we've seen remarkable stuff happen around the context of our neighborhood for all the structural difficulties that folks face every day you know we have this one guy who after years was finally able to buy to buy house recently through the the land trust that we started right and this is going to make a profound impact on his family for the future.
[00:31:05] So I mean there are some small successes like that I see.
[00:31:10] I've also seen the way that some of my writing this manuscript has confronted people and said they said man I recognize myself in this story in a way that's made me really uncomfortable and I've got some work that I need to do and I need to bring my congregation along so you know catching those kinds of responses as well.
[00:31:35] As discouraging as the work is and as we see gentrification here in my neighborhood just really tear in the place up you know there's enough little good things along the way through as a better reminder you know hey we can.
[00:31:52] There's still plenty of good work for us to do even if it seems overwhelming.
[00:31:57] Yeah now I like that man I like that I mean I think yeah there is there is there is there is you know that sense of that oh my gosh but I'm glad I said man that's why I was like all right you got some good endorsements man let me get this brother out here man we can talk about this yeah.
[00:32:15] Let me let me say while I'm thinking about it yeah one other thing so one of the I think another like another piece of sort of calling.
[00:32:26] Kind of calling people to the table to say look at this story.
[00:32:32] And being able to put some names names to things so one of the one of the men that I interviewed told me about his family growing up.
[00:32:43] That had help right so this neighborhood this black neighborhood I've written about that was called Brooklyn.
[00:32:50] They would go and they would go to Brooklyn and pick up the help and bring her to the house and could describe to me very lovingly how they cared so much about her they thought of her as family when she died they helped to cover her funeral cost etc.
[00:33:08] But when the bulldozer showed up at her house.
[00:33:13] Nobody really had much to say about kinship at that point right the neighborhood was going to go even though there was this this supposed deep connection.
[00:33:25] Yeah they had so yeah and so one of the I just think it's really important to like if you can put that in front of people in ways that they haven't and this is what I mean about like introducing this notion of.
[00:33:42] Corporate repentance like there was corporate sin you know there was corporate transgression trespassing by taking over this neighborhood and this really cruel and awful way.
[00:33:55] And so you have to teach people how to think about that because part of whiteness has been that we've not been taught how to think about that we've been taught we've been taught to think sentimentally about one another on an individual level without having to think about the ways that we're constructing our cities.
[00:34:21] They make life impossible for some people and really easy or somewhat easier for other people.
[00:34:29] Man yeah that's that is that's absolutely deep one of the articles that I have my students read an intercultural calm is Peggy Macintosh is work you know the invisible app sack of white privilege and so she talks a little bit about that you know just again the way the structure to where things are set up.
[00:34:46] Yeah I'm a big hip hop head and and you know somebody said you know simplistically but in a very profound way is like you want to understand how hip hop was was developed like you know imagine a highway being put through your neighborhood you know it's like so.
[00:35:01] These displacements growing up you know in Los Angeles and that environment there's all kinds of stories like that right especially after the uprisings right.
[00:35:10] The freeway system was redesigned to really you know enclosed Compton South Central Watts in those areas and stuff and you know again that displacements of folks when you start to think about what is.
[00:35:25] I'm thinking about this from from several different camps here and I be curious what would you have to say because when you think about movements I think about my partner she works you know she works HR but she works specifically with nonprofit organizations involved in different type of movements you know whether it's you know sexual reproductive rights whether it's you know race and equity and that type of stuff.
[00:35:48] She works around the country so we got privy to kind of see a lot of different e-d's and action and stuff and there's a prevalent way of saying like all men like white folks just need to take a back seat like where do you see the role of white folks in this and I and I asked this question because.
[00:36:05] In a lot of my classes I have young white women who are like ready to go to work but are also like I don't know what to do with my whiteness I don't know what to do with this I think 15 years ago I thought I had an answer and I don't know if I haven't answer anymore but I be curious where you see that see that role because you know this like you said this comes up a lot the history is there.
[00:36:30] And so oftentimes when students in a classroom like mine this will be the first time they've heard anything like what you're talking about here yeah yeah.
[00:36:40] So I mean I think so white folks have to there one of the principles I think when you're getting into this kind of anti-racist work is that you have to be a good follower right you got to pay close attention and listen to the ways that black people in particular are kind of leading in the way
[00:36:58] black people in particular are kind of leading us to identify the issues and to see the ways of working on them but you can't at some point you got to be a good enough student that you can contribute to the conversation and not just sit around waiting to be told what to do right.
[00:37:15] And so I you know I think that's really that's really crucial for us to say we've got to work on our own institutions we've got to work on our own people.
[00:37:26] We're going to do this in communities of accountability and communities of friendship and kinship that develop so that.
[00:37:36] You know we're not we're not going to keep fooling ourselves because that's always going to be the danger what you know whiteness has has so deeply infected us but we also can't just sit around waiting on people to tell us what to do like we've got to take the initiative the responsibility
[00:37:52] and to have those communities of accountability that can help us to figure out what the right next step is.
[00:37:59] Yeah, I like that I like that a lot man I think that yeah it's you know it's it's a road fraught with a lot and you know part I say this partly because you know my wife you know ethnic issues European American and racially white and so you know I'm seeing it from a different perspective different angle.
[00:38:21] And it's you know it's helped to give me pause because it's very easy to get up right in confirmation bias and very easy to get up and just you know and things that I want to see be know because of the history right there's been a history and you know when you study some of these things it gets crazy.
[00:38:39] So let me let's get to the book man what what was the premise for this what what kind of gave way every book has a stories what they say you know is that every book has a narrative and how it came together and then how I got put together.
[00:38:53] Yeah so I was studying my own neighborhood again this spillover of urban renewal here in on the west side Charlotte and so to understand my own place I had to understand the history of urban renewal.
[00:39:09] And I had been asked to lead some tours for some church groups who are kind of thinking about the development history of Charlotte and I've been doing my homework so I had a man.
[00:39:21] Who had grown up in the Brooklyn neighborhood and Charlotte this is a downtown neighborhood that was was kind of the premier place of black culture religious economic political culture that was then the first urban renewal project that happened here okay and so right square in the middle of that it became a government district and the first Baptist church of Charlotte the white first Baptist church we have a black first Baptist as well but the white first Baptist church city.
[00:39:50] The white first Baptist church sits directly next to the government center so it's kind of symbolically the fusion of this government governmental and theological power there.
[00:40:01] So folks would ask us while we were leading this this tour you know I'm sort of talking about the policy he's talking about personal experience how did first Baptist church wind up here only what's the story behind that there's got to be a story but nobody knew.
[00:40:15] Nobody had ever been in their archives so I'm an old Southern Baptist and I said let me dig around see what I can find out and so the story that developed from that from kind of work in their archives was.
[00:40:28] The story of one black family kind of tracing their ancestors back to the plantations they were born on they were the first black family first homeowners who were forced to sell by the government in that Brooklyn neighborhood first Baptist church bought that property and built.
[00:40:44] Their sanctuary on top of this family's house right so you've got their trajectory of out of slavery into homeownership significant religious and political figures of fascinating family and then this white institution re asserting its dominance kind of theologically and politically right there in the middle of town.
[00:41:08] So all the details and it was a fascinating story that had been covered up in intentionally so here within Charlotte so I just started digging I went through all the archive collections I could I made some friendships and relationships inside that church.
[00:41:25] And this is what resulted that man.
[00:41:27] Well what took me with this book in which I really love I love history and this is really a historical text I love the pictures and the details that you have put into developing okay this is what has happened this is how these things have come to be.
[00:41:44] And you know this is taking nothing away from other authors and whatnot but so often you know I see you know almost like a memoirish and there's parts of that in there but I really appreciate just your walk on us through.
[00:41:55] You know you talk about the cleaners here in chapter two and again you're you're laying these things out man it's like here's a text that one I could actually use in a classroom to help folks better understand okay this is this was been going on because you know Chicago's right with what you're talking about in this.
[00:42:18] In this right this man who's grip man.
[00:42:23] Yeah that was so one of the things that was really important to me trying to write a theologically about urban renewal yeah was you sort of have to make a choice early on am I going to write a survey nationally of urban renewal policies or am I going to go as deep as I can into a single story.
[00:42:48] And my strategy from the very beginning was that if I can tell this story really well people in other cities will see themselves and their city and their neighborhood inside this story in a way that they're not going to connect with like a big sweeping historical survey right yeah.
[00:43:05] So I mean that was that was my strategy and I'm glad to hear that it's landing with you because Chicago I mean Chicago was the testing ground for urban renewal policy before there was national policy they were experimenting with it in Chicago yes.
[00:43:21] So you know for this for this the land kind of in that context is really good when I yeah no in my in my master's program when I was looking at urban development urban planning.
[00:43:32] Chicago continue to come up as a case study in development and obviously L.A. is a lot different but so much of the strategies and methods that in that we're using Chicago have been you know implemented in places like Chicago and of course I'm like Los Angeles.
[00:43:47] And of course now when you think about it you know the silicone revolution.
[00:43:50] I was living in the Bay Area in the 90s when you could still buy a house for under 100 grand you know but you know past 95 and just everything's just start skyrocketing we know the story.
[00:44:01] How have you seen this just in regards to responses I'm sure that was the other thing too this is fortress press right let put this out.
[00:44:12] Yes fortress another respected I've worked with fortress I've worked as an editor with them and another respect that was another thing too I said man I see sneak walk a barns I saw fortress press I look at your website I said I this brothers got some shit man this is this is some good stuff right here.
[00:44:28] So for the authors in it how was it how was it you know again putting this together and and sort of forming some kind of a narrative what was what's your process in terms of writing.
[00:44:43] So I had never tackled a big historical project quite like this so the first thing.
[00:44:51] Was just to get in the archives and to start laying out a timeline to figure out like is this is is this a story that needs a book or does it just need an article you know or a little presentation or whatever.
[00:45:08] But as a developed and I was able to identify this one family.
[00:45:14] For whom there was lots of little bits in the in the archives and in the newspapers and in this kind of thing all along the way this one church that allowed me in there enormous archival collections.
[00:45:30] So just get beginning to gather all that data and then.
[00:45:34] And then to start putting the story together and to find a theological frame.
[00:45:41] That would help to make some sense of it so the that frame for me was the story of from Martin I and the story of the silencing spirit yeah.
[00:45:55] And like that what turned the thing that turns within that story is Jesus asks the father who brings this boy that's been silenced by the spirit.
[00:46:06] How long has it been happening to him and the father says he changes the pronouns he makes it plural we need you to help us right to me that was just a really powerful way of.
[00:46:17] Of kind of getting theologically at saying this story is not just about this one church.
[00:46:23] This is this is a collective story.
[00:46:27] And so then from there you know beginning to dig into some interviews with people who are still a few folks around who were there kind of help and make decisions.
[00:46:38] There are lots and lots of people around who've dealt with the aftermath of those decisions.
[00:46:42] There are lots of people who've been incarcerated into that the silence of whiteness and for whom this was all news and so you know that was that was the process this continual iteration of digging into the archives to an interview is writing more archival work more interviews more writing economy.
[00:47:02] I love it man no and and it shows again as I go through the text I mean it's let's laid out you know light like a historical text in fact I.
[00:47:12] A colleague of mine well to be colleagues at the same school now she's teaching Notre Dame she's a sociologist and this is her specialty so I've I forwarded this title to her because I think she would be very interested in this because this is exactly what she teaches in terms of just in terms of how cities are put together you know and just localities and everything.
[00:47:31] We talk about our debts here in chapter 10 what's that about man what's what what is it even you can put down Matthew 612 you know forget is our trespasses forgive us our debts what are those debts look like break that break that down a little bit for us.
[00:47:46] Yeah so part of what I wanted to do at the end of this is to bring this historical story into the present day and to examine what what the cost has been and
[00:48:00] you know what the what the repair is might look like so one of the one of the things for me was to do that again very specifically sort of calculate.
[00:48:11] Here's how much first Baptist church of Charlotte paid for this property that they want in an auction that the city rigged so that they would win it.
[00:48:20] Here's how much that the North family got paid for their property that first Baptist is built upon now and here's the way that those property values have diverged over the past 20 years.
[00:48:34] So the it sort of depends on whether you use the municipal valuation or a market rate valuation but that one family is missing somewhere between half a million dollars and a million dollars worth of equity because of urban renewal.
[00:48:51] And so so there's a real specific calculation to say if we will if we wanted to start thinking about making repairs help and to make families hold for what this series of obviously unjust decisions cost them well here's a dollar figure you know and I don't want to that I don't want to be crude in any way to say that you can make up for 60 years of lost.
[00:49:20] Stuff by writing a single check right but a check will help it's not going to do everything.
[00:49:29] Right make a difference yeah and the process that it will take white institutions to go from silenced to writing a check that's going to hurt to write that process is also going to help to heal some of the damage that's been done to our souls.
[00:49:48] The malformations or Dr Jenny Willie Jennings talks about white whiteness as a formation into immaturity right so our souls have been messed up by this and the process of learning how to tell the stories that we've forgotten or that we left out all together and then having them to pay some costly repairs.
[00:50:12] That's going to help to heal us as well so that that's kind of what I'm getting at to say.
[00:50:18] Some material repair to the communities that were harmed will do some soul repair to those of us who are who have the legacy of these silences and these damages who that's deep man I mean that is deep that is.
[00:50:35] I mean I think about that I mean I know you know Tim wise is talked about this for a long time right it's like what the white privilege and what whiteness is done to white people in and of itself right.
[00:50:47] You know the and you you talk about I love you know Willie Jennings you know he's an amazing scholar amazing person individual but yeah that's that's deep man I think with where we find ourselves now just from a you know from a perspective for example here where I live in Chicago.
[00:51:05] On the west side you know the Austin neighborhood is one of the oldest and so it has a lot of old historical places and so there are a lot of developers trying to get the rubble of hands on this place and what some folks have begun to do is begin to form sort of what you're talking about some of these coal
[00:51:25] late coalitions we may not be able to individually afford five or six different properties but collectively we can come in and try to maintain the community so that what we know right is like you know people come
[00:51:40] in and then those you know price to start to go up all the you know the aspects of gentrification with this and I love you know the debts that you know you talk about man what.
[00:51:54] Well let me I got a couple different questions that and I love the picture that you have in in chapter 10 figure 10 one Regina Norse you know this child siblings that's that's amazing what.
[00:52:07] What do you see the role of faith playing in this and I'm coming at that from particularly right wing pundits that say all this is just divisive this is just to more ways to be why can't we just be American you know this is something I follow Megan Kelly on Instagram and she was you know harping about how we shouldn't be singing the black national anthem you know at a football game because you know that's just why can't it just be American.
[00:52:31] And just that we're all Americans so that type of ideology man were how do you engage with that man in particularly young white males which I'm forgetting where I read the statistic so I apologize but there was a stat that came out about four years ago.
[00:52:41] That talked about how the majority of white men were like entering business and whatnot and since then I'm not going to talk about that.
[00:52:48] I'm forgetting where I read the statistic so I apologize but there was a stat that came out about four years ago.
[00:52:54] That talked about how the majority of white men were like entering business and whatnot and some in this people were connecting about it wasn't the chronicle fire at connecting it back to.
[00:53:05] You know kind of the downgrade of liberal arts program and kind of the ethics and all the type of class that you go in there and I can say anecdotally speaking.
[00:53:14] You know white women dominate my class I rare it's it's rare to have a white male in a communications intercultural type of it's dominated by white women so I be curious like what is that how do you navigate that what are some advice what are some insights that you have.
[00:53:31] If that makes sense that was long I know yeah there's a lot there so I think the you know again as a as a writer as a thinker as a like just as a neighbor i'm really into the specific stories of places and and I just think that like we're wired to connect with specific stories.
[00:53:59] And so with you know with the right wing pundits even I think like so much of pondetry kind of relies on like taking one little thing and you know making it bigger than it actually is rather than going deep into the specific lives of people and of places and of the things that have shaped them.
[00:54:25] So I think that like the patience of higher education or of the kinds of I mean the kinds of conversations that white folks need to be having inside our own institutions to say look we're going to dive deeper into this into this story and like part of what I've written is that when first Baptist church was making these decisions when the one of the things that I did along the course of this was to go through church.
[00:54:54] So I can learn where every city council person that was making like what was their church membership.
[00:55:08] And so we can say to folks like okay urban renewal was in some ways theological even the word renewal sort of has like a little theological character to it right and the conquest narrative that drove urban renewal certainly had theological justifications I've spelled them out very clearly in my in my own context and from the history work that I've done.
[00:55:34] But we also have other resources inside the Christian tradition that aren't about conquest that are about you know being reconciled with one another for instance or or building our cities you know like in the book of numbers it talks about the cities of refuge the places where building city of refuge for those who are who don't have places of safety right so so we have those alternatives.
[00:56:02] And I think that people will will often make remarkable.
[00:56:11] Unselfish decisions using the language and the stories of faith when they have the right resources available to them when they have networks of support and communities of accountability that can help them to make those decisions but what they won't do is get to that place on their own yeah right especially because you know the mega
[00:56:31] Kelly's of the world or who like there's a whole host of those oh yeah that are trying so hard to point folks in the wrong direction so we've got to we've got to create an alternative and and to convince folks hey this is like not only is it possible but here the resources and hear people who are already making these hard decisions you know that that result in beauty instead of ugliness not just because I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do that.
[00:57:00] Not just not to sound right about it but I'm you know justice work is really beautiful when when it starts to bear fruit absolutely man I think this ties real well with your last chapter the ghosts of Christian present I like I love that title you know with that talk a little bit about that without giving away too much of the secret sols but talk a little bit about that I mean it feels like you're hinting towards some of that now but break that down a little bit more.
[00:57:29] I mean so the thing about right in this historical text was that I didn't want to just leave it in the realm of history yeah yeah and especially as a white guy living in a black neighborhood writing to a certain extent about black history within my city like I'm recruited into the trouble as well.
[00:57:51] And so I can't sit and pretend to have kind of the distant gaze of a scholar who's not implicated in the thing they're writing about.
[00:58:00] So I really wanted to go to significant labor and say and look I live inside this story also.
[00:58:09] And the and this story this story of the 1960s in Charlotte.
[00:58:18] It still haunts the rest of our society today right the trajectories are the same that we don't have urban renewal now we have gentrification but those are our twins and again in Christina's sharp.
[00:58:35] Formulation this is part of slavery's after lives within our society.
[00:58:43] So if we're still living inside that story then the only way to get healed from it is for one to name it.
[00:58:50] And then having named it like figure out how are we going to build a different structure yeah how are we going to and you know how's that structure going to form different kinds of souls different kinds of how's it going to make us different people.
[00:59:04] So that we're not just like it's good to build different kinds of neighborhoods.
[00:59:11] But if you don't build different kinds of people that can inhabit those neighborhoods then eventually you're just going to get the same story of domination of white supremacy.
[00:59:20] So that's what that chapter was about for me say you know this is an existential story it's not just a historical text.
[00:59:29] I love it. I love it and I and because I still hear that right like all man this stuff is ancient you know saw me the other day from brave film forget I forget I follow my Instagram as well and I'm not a big social media guy but on Instagram there's few counts that I found mainly post just memes and funny stuff ridiculous stuff but
[00:59:50] it was talking about how you know stop saying how you know this is the most divided we've ever been in this country and they show a picture of you know can you know Jim Crow you know South and stuff that this was just less than 70 years ago.
[01:00:04] And you know again how these things affect us now I always get a kick out of the amount of white nationalist to post MLK quotes you know
[01:00:16] January 17th it's always like one or two quotes that totally missed the fullness of his life right yeah I mean the thing
[01:00:26] part of what so has been so poignant about this about this history of me is that it the kids made sense of my neighborhood in its current constituency and one of the there's a white guy that I interviewed along the way who's kind of around or an urban renewal times.
[01:00:43] And he said to me you know it's not like they came in and ran over people with bulldozers as though that was some kind of some in some way
[01:00:54] exculpatory right right and part of what really captured me about that is that like he could see like behind that he knew that what had happened was cruel
[01:01:06] and he was making some slight justification for it but what I was seeing on my own block was were bulldozers and like it's and it's the same thing you know we're like we still live inside this story.
[01:01:22] And so his kind of way of getting around that I think I had to sort of wrestle with myself as well to remind myself like don't get in your to see in this happened over and over you know I mean you can't walk around as a big puddle of grief all the time but you have to stay soft and recognize that like there's a immense cruelty
[01:01:50] that we have such deep and important work to do around us on behalf of our neighbors and on behalf of ourselves because it you know this matters to all of us.
[01:02:00] I mean this is it's heavy and it's good again. This text is much more than just kind of a hey you know here are five steps to be coming up better Christian you know this lays down the lumbar as I like to say man this puts it down there and says look God damn it we got to take a closer look at this shit.
[01:02:25] What's giving you hope right now brother what's what's what's driving you what you know what when you look at all the crap that's out there and what is what keeps Greg going.
[01:02:36] You know that like even in the midst of all I mean I see it in my neighborhood every day the you know the destruction but there's so many people creating so much beauty.
[01:02:55] So I'm a jazz musician that's one of the kind of trainings that I have is one of the ways that I keep my lights on and I mean there's so many people doing amazing work creating out of the out of the mess of our society creating this incredible art in terms of literature.
[01:03:21] What in music and visual arts right and so I don't just kind of getting lost in new music.
[01:03:30] Getting lost in some of the new novels jasmine ward is writing this amazing novels right now like that that's part of what keeps me going.
[01:03:41] Yeah the other.
[01:03:45] I saw two teens there they're 15 and 13 yeah yeah and you know man like they go hard for justice.
[01:03:58] Yeah yeah they are they are tolerating no bullshit yeah from.
[01:04:04] And so they're you know that keeps me going to that like we can we can tell a different story we can create a different reality and it doesn't you know you hear people say like it took us 500 years to get to this place is going to take us 500 now man that's that's not right.
[01:04:26] Like the kind of chains that we're trying to build to can all of a sudden happen very quickly yeah persistent in doing it now yeah you know so that gives me some hope as well even though the days can be frustrating at times.
[01:04:39] Who yeah brother yeah man I love that yeah the art I think that's a that's a big part of it I didn't know you were jazz musician and I do I do music as well and so.
[01:04:50] It's it's it's also a way at least for me to clear the mind and and and to you know put myself in a different space especially after a long day.
[01:04:59] Man sure folks the book is our trespasses white churches and the taking of American neighborhoods i just think folks got to read this I mean I think you know particularly my audience that you know kind of you know wants to get into more of the history of what is happening in our in our world and especially those folks who are like I didn't know this was happening i've just started reading about things like this is a great text.
[01:05:25] At Bo's an entry and also somebody who's like oh yeah like I said this could be right up in there in the classroom i'm great working folks find you man they want to bring out and you know a build your new foundation man you know bring out give you a couple hundred grand for for an honorary keynote let's go let's go.
[01:05:43] So I'm easy to find by way of my website Greg Gerald calm J or E L.
[01:05:50] Facebook Twitter I actually have never started using Instagram but you know i've got plenty of digital footprint out there so not hard to find and definitely I mean you can tell this project has really been transformative for me.
[01:06:10] I think the folks will really be interested in the story and so i'm more than happy to come and talk about it with love engaging with that yes yes absolutely man well thank you.
[01:06:21] For this text thank you for putting the work and the labor into it these you know monographs are never easy i mean so thank you for for this i mean thank you for coming on the show taking the time.
[01:06:33] Yeah man thank you thank you for your work and glad to get to have this conversation with you sir.
[01:06:39] Then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smack one night and then she seeks help from the church.
[01:06:51] There is a pile of dead bodies behind the marshal bus and by God's grace it'll be a mountain by the time we're done you either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus those are the options.
[01:07:01] There's nothing holy about writing discrimination into the law and I am tired of communities of faith being weaponized because the only time religious freedom is invoked is in the name of bigotry and discrimination.
[01:07:16] I'm tired of it.
[01:07:18] Hi i'm Nate producer and co-host on the full mutuality podcast let's talk about inequality it's everywhere whether it's rooted in race gender ability or sexuality there's bound to be an imbout.
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