[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast.
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[00:00:07] We have enemies within our country.
[00:00:19] I think it's a combination of demonology and scyop.
[00:00:23] The citizens are going to rise up and become deputized.
[00:00:26] I have always heard President Trump. regarding faith, race, gender, and religion. I'll be your host, Daniel Whitehodge. for the the the the the the the the the the
[00:03:00] the
[00:03:02] the
[00:03:04] the
[00:03:06] the Israel, Palestine, and I sat down and talked with some very interesting and good people, Jew, Palestinian, and then my man, Dr. Torian Webb, was on there, Brant Rosen and Tyreek Abuata. This was back in season 4, episode 15. I'll post those, that link in the show notes.
[00:04:22] It's a great conversation in regards to just write the justification People always crack me up, you know, especially the non-violent people who's like oh no long any violence. We should all be peaceful as You know on this show, right? That's bullshit
[00:05:42] Because violence is always around us and violence is always ever present
[00:06:47] Just just protest just sign a petition call your representatives and Russia will quit invading hell. No man We are in them. We are in those motherfuckers
[00:06:51] and
[00:06:52] The reality of it is is that we justify the violence that we think is needed
[00:06:58] Okay
[00:06:59] um
[00:07:00] And I'm not necessarily saying that that's a bad thing if somebody breaks into the house
[00:08:05] unprovoked fam. I don't know about no unprovoked. How long do you expect people to just take shit before you respond with shit? In fact, as Malcolm X said, I don't even consider
[00:08:10] self-defense violence. Okay, I don't. You can unsubscribe from me at that point. But
[00:08:18] what is happening right now is pure genocide. And we gotta, we gotta live these things and defend, right? Cause we're being down trying, right? Oh, give me liberty or give me death, right? You know, this, that kind of ideological trope. Those things, right, stand to be true. You think about all the things you just go outside of the city of Chicago and you see, right?
[00:09:41] What is it the, you know, these type of ideological
[00:09:44] mantras that are out there?
[00:09:46] What is it, from my, my, my, my, my love and my support goes out to those who are fighting for freedom and those Palestinians. And of course, those families on the Israeli side who were also innocent and have gotten bombed, who've gotten killed, gotten caught up in this violence, because there's a lot going
[00:11:01] on. But the way things have been set up, the way, you're like, well, but damn, this and this and that, I'm like, I don't care for me, you can't justify killing just basic folks. Even folks who they were like, okay, go to this side, go to the north side, I think it going to see the other side of the view of somebody who hates me just for existing. I'm not going to sit at, you know, and listen to somebody's opinion that wants to just kill me and my lineage and take them out.
[00:13:45] I'm, that something like this exists. I do think that we have to figure out a way to come together. We, one of the episodes I want to do soon is given the option to kind of, you know, come back and re-record the ending. He's like right at the tail end, his internet, because I think they were having a storm and the internet cut out. But again, we got through 95% of the conversations. So I was very thankful for that. He's on Twitter. I'll put these links in the show notes as well.
[00:16:21] He's at Matt McHyloutes.
[00:16:24] Might be, I am budgeting his brother's name.
[00:16:27] I'll put those links in the show notes. podcast called profane faith she's like what's that I was like you met Dan we did lunch she was like oh good I heard that yeah no I am it's funny I it's speaking of reaching out to folks I had reached out to forget who it was he's a scientist he he's like been on discovery and he I responded and I'm like oh okay
[00:17:40] great you know and he's like what's the name of the podcast that profane faith coming in the American culture that might encourage us not to be civil. I'm sure you could think of one or two. And I said, that's interesting, but I don't feel for sure that civility is what Christians are called to. I think we might be called to something more, something more difficult. And then they were like, what if we brought another point of view into the book?
[00:19:01] And their dream author was, if we could get someone like Kathy Kong. that it's still a business and there are things that need to happen and rules that are in place. And I just, I had communicated several times to Matt, JR, that I wasn't sure if writing in the Christian space was going to be my is a way for me in all of my disillusionment to say, I still believe that we can be better and that I can be better, and that if my community
[00:21:41] can commit to that, maybe there's that old James Baldwin quote, right? It's just like Like and I'm paraphrasing here But it's like we can we can agree to disagree unless you're you know my disagreement is with you right seeing my own civility and humanity and stuff and and so what is how does that look like you know because it feels like
[00:23:02] we're getting into that space of
[00:24:04] and white people are so afraid of being impolite in that moment. Like you want to step back and go like, oh, I,
[00:24:06] like you want to move the conversation along
[00:24:09] or say something different or just politely say to them.
[00:24:13] But I think what I've been trying to talk about
[00:24:15] with my friends is civility is about politeness, right?
[00:24:19] And there are times when civility is incorrect.
[00:24:22] For instance, if I was in a car accident,
[00:24:25] I would not expect the E was done to say that our responses are also bound in our social location.
[00:25:44] And that has everything to do with lived experience. anger, I am absolved from reacting with the fruit of the spirit. So I think that's also why we thought it was important to kind of go through it all and wrestle with all of the words that we kind of spout out and say, Well, what does this really look like? What what is possible that I can be angry and I can
[00:27:01] be loving? I can be angry and I are actually in agreement. So when we start getting into places where we're in disagreement with people we're in community with, and trying to disagree with the fruit of the spirit in our lives on both sides, hopefully, it's enormously complex. It's much more difficult than just being polite to each other.
[00:28:22] I'm glad you said that.
[00:28:24] That's really, I think that's really important And I mean, I don't put it like, oh, if I had just been realer in 2015, with 2016, it wouldn't have happened. No, I don't think that, my point and all that saying is, is that I think that oftentimes trying to be nice
[00:29:41] gets rooted in just this kind of this Christianese language
[00:29:44] and evangelicalism that just gets muddled.
[00:29:47] Like I'm glad y' amazing book by Michael Harriet, Black AF History, the unwashed story of America. And one, it's just really well performed
[00:31:00] because I'm listening to the audio book.
[00:31:02] But there are these historical facts where I'm like,
[00:31:05] wait a second, I didn't learn this. You think it says something, are you willing to study this with other people who might have a different interpretation or bring questions to the table? Because that's also the thing that I am reflecting on a lot these days, is that. That's not what I mean. I'm like, well, but- I mean, 1950s American biblical. That's right. That's right. That's right. Well, I mean, I think that's just, I think that's important, right? I mean, when people start to say,
[00:33:41] I mean, even, you know, some of the,
[00:33:42] the sociopolitical talk of like, you know,
[00:33:44] this country is going to hell, you know,
[00:33:47] this, this country, we've lost our civility. that I was running. Yeah. Yeah. You were handling business. And I remember my daughter at the time had on a Black Lives Matter shirt. And I just remember going to one of the several of the main sessions and like the looks that we were getting was just like, who in the hell invited y'all. So I'd be curious how you navigated some of these conversations again,
[00:35:00] because I'm sure you're privy to stuff that, you know, so when I say white spaces, I mean majority culture spaces, right? It doesn't mean only white people are there. So I'm talking about culturally white. My experience is that usually the first conversation about race, it actually is helpful to have a white man say in it, because they will listen differently. And when we
[00:36:23] have those conversations, I'll say it but that that's certainly some of my experience. And when we came to Nashville, my wife and I became woke and like asked a lot of questions about our faith. And I was like, in Nashville, you did. And he said, yeah, it's weird, right? But basically his wife started volunteering for an organization that helped bring African-American history into the classroom locally, learned a bunch of stuff she had never heard of, and
[00:39:00] started questioning everything, pulled her husband in on it.
[00:39:04] And they were like, oh, we've been, we weren't just wrong.
[00:39:07] We were ignorant on a lot of things. So like Kathy, like how then do we, I mean, I'm not out on the front. I try to keep it as real as I am. I have given up on conversations regarding politics. And, you know, again, for lack of a better word, you know, Trump supporters, you know, DeSanto supporters. I mean, and so how does that, how do you navigate
[00:40:21] some of that, Kathy, as a woman of color?
[00:40:24] I know your presence on social media,
[00:40:26] so I know you're not afraid to get into it. and all I can't believe this and I can't like, for example, we, when we went to go get a minor past on gender studies, gender and human studies, oh my God, I mean, all that stuff started to come out of the woodwork, it's like, well, aren't we teaching biblical marriages and this and this and that, so much so that somebody actually ended up suing the school
[00:41:40] as a result of that minor.
[00:41:42] And I know that because I got subpoenaed because-
[00:41:46] Suit it like the school're gonna be teaching this in the classroom? So anyways
[00:43:05] What does that look like?
[00:43:07] Yeah, some people need that minor One example I can give is in my community, they do, I think, like in the warm months, once a month there's like a big car show thing where like people with expensive old cars line up the cars, block off a couple of the streets downtown and they set up. And I've lived here for almost 20 years somebody who may or may not have a Confederate flag in their trunk or hold certain beliefs. And I recognize as I'm saying this, people could say, oh, but Kathy, that's a stereotype. That is a bias that you're holding. And I will say, yes, that is absolutely a bias I hold based in personal experience.
[00:45:43] And those are the situations that I have to choose how I'm going to respond. What I am going to say. And that is on a daily basis. Right? The other day, Peter and I were staying at a hotel, I just in line to get a cup of coffee. And the gentleman in front just loudly as complaining about, I think it was
[00:47:02] CNN on the television. And he this gentleman went to the front desk
[00:48:20] complained very loudly so that we could all hear that he did not
[00:48:24] like the choice on the television. And that front desk person
[00:49:23] you know, some calls of people that have been like, Hey, can you come out? We just started reading, you know, a ton of hossy coats.
[00:49:26] You know, I'm like, Oh, geez.
[00:49:27] All right.
[00:49:28] You know, welcome, you know, or somebody who just that's right.
[00:49:32] Somebody was just like, Oh, I, they read part of James Baldwin's, uh, some
[00:49:37] of his poetry and stuff.
[00:49:38] And I was just like, okay, where is this going?
[00:49:42] Um, what part?
[00:49:44] What part?
[00:49:44] What part?
[00:50:46] But who knows, maybe this book will catapult me and Matt into a speaking tour. But generally, yeah, I mean, here's the reality.
[00:50:53] Matt and I talked a lot too about publishing with Navcress and what that meant for us,
[00:51:01] for me, and had conversations around what we particularly women of color around things like, how do you make, how do you make sure you are not being taken advantage of? Right. And have kind of a value set on your time. And so I think there is that too.
[00:52:21] There are things like I will and have spoken at a local church for way below what my going rate is. And nothing horrible happens when you land. Ooh. Can you talk to that? And I'll say this because nobody in the audience can see it. And Matt somehow got logged off or something like that. But I'd be curious, just again, in light of this book, how have you handled that, in particular when things do go awry
[00:53:41] and then you're pulled off to the side,
[00:53:43] somebody wants to have a conversation with you.
[00:53:46] And you kind of if that means that conversation that are inviting me, all people of color, they didn't even bat an eye. They're like, yes, of course. So that's something that I've learned is if I don't know somebody on site, I need to bring
[00:56:23] somebody with me on site. Even if I think an eye and it just felt so Good to know even as I was prepping. Yeah That's somebody in the audience had my back. That's great. Yeah, that is a great thing
[00:57:43] That is good. That's real good because you're right I mean sometimes that is the only them, but I don't want people just being able to find my office, find my places. But so in light of the book, how have you navigated that? How have you engaged with that? What does that look like for you when there is somebody, somebody's saying some crazy stuff.
[00:59:02] And you're just like, oh my gosh, do I engage?
[00:59:04] Do I not?
[01:00:01] of when and how I will interact and how others around me will act.
[01:00:03] So like my Facebook wall, I treat that like my living room.
[01:00:06] If you come into my living room
[01:00:08] and you start insulting other people in the living room,
[01:00:11] like I will shut you down.
[01:00:12] And it won't necessarily be polite, right?
[01:00:16] But yeah, am I gonna go looking for trouble sometimes?
[01:00:19] I mean, I get bored like everybody
[01:00:21] and I wanna go prove that someone's wrong in the world
[01:00:24] just like everyone.
[01:01:26] introduced to the fact that there is a living, breathing God who wants them to continue to live and breathe and grow and change. Yeah, I don't know. And so much of evangelicalism is centered
[01:01:33] around this idea that you can have perfect theology. And that's not biblical. And it's not Christian.
[01:01:40] Right. So to push on that makes people say, oh, you're hit me really, really, really, really hard last year. My entry into kind of social work and engagement and social equity was the LA uprisings in 92. Those you don't know, April 29, 1992, was the verdict of the Rodney King trial. And, you know, I was involved in all of that.
[01:03:04] And it hit me, because I remember somebody saying, Which by the way a footnote I'm impressed that nav press put this out. I I even go front I was I was looking for the publisher. I was like who put this out. I was a whoa, okay Feels like an Erdman's book more more than a nav press, but you know hey And shout out to our editor Caitlin Carlson
[01:04:21] David Zimmerman we just had a really really great experience. Yeah
[01:05:26] impatient and my one of my biggest flaws is I am probably most impatient with myself and that can often come out as being judgy against others but it's this
[01:05:32] strong like oh I know it's supposed to be like this and I believe it can be like
[01:05:38] this so why can't it be like this right and so yeah so patience in 2023 I I Every day, and I do things like make coffee for my son, or teach my yoga class and present to them, and can put on pause for all of us an hour of what's going on in the world, and ask everybody to silence their phones.
[01:07:01] And I'll be honest, sometimes that's about what I posted because they can Google. I think that's what patience looks like, like in a daily basis, right? Like, I don't need to engage with comment number, you know, 45 on an Instagram post, because somebody doesn't understand what I posted.
[01:08:24] I don't know, Google AI. I'm glad we have in this conversation, is just like when, you know, when is that? I mean, I think that was, like,
[01:09:40] when is that timed to burn stuff down?
[01:09:42] Cause that was in 92, that was just it.
[01:09:44] That was kind of the, at a sense of both of us were pitted against each other. That's my only regret
[01:11:03] Oh, yeah, we were the way we live, whether it's people who are in organized religion or not. It doesn't matter. So I don't know how you that for a specific ask. I need this to be removed or I need this apology and I need this program very specific., yeah. So I was so, so glad that Kathy was writing patience. And then what we did, the way we do it in the book is we also have some conversation at the end or sometimes the other one will share their own thoughts.
[01:15:02] I think for me, the big thing I'm growing in in patience
[01:15:05] is this understanding that part of patience be patient, be patient, this will end. That's a really different situation, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I am saying when I am in relationship with someone and struggling because of disagreement, that I'm just trying to find the place that I can say, I can disagree with you and love you at the same time, like and still be potentially in relationship, right?
[01:16:20] If they're not causing harm to me or mine
[01:16:22] or the people I care about.
[01:16:25] Well, and like the example Dan you brought up earlier,
[01:17:26] saying yes and being patient with them and walking them through that. And I would say, no,
[01:17:32] I think that is the thing as we are writing this book and going back and forth and reading each other's chapters before we turn the manuscript in is to say, oh, this is really complex because
[01:17:40] you can't do the one without thinking about the other in all ethnic minority communities, then I do when I go to my daughters, especially since she's into horses. So we're always out in the suburbs and countryside and places like that where, you know, you
[01:19:01] see all these things, right?
[01:19:02] Don't try it on me.
[01:19:04] Blue lives matter, which is usually a signal for white supremacy.
[01:19:07] You know what I'm saying? And that's the patience that I have. And so, and most of my money goes to buying ammo, bulletproof fasts. I laugh, but I'm just, I'm not kidding, right? I mean, there's literally four containers here, you know, the 50 caliber containers that you
[01:20:25] can get at any place, they're ammo holders.
[01:20:27] They're filled with nation and people are getting weapons to make sure they're safe. Like that's a weird thing. We should probably look at that
[01:21:40] if we're true followers of Jesus.
[01:21:42] What's going on there?
[01:21:44] Yeah. Yeah.
[01:21:45] No, that's, which brings me to chapter 10
[01:21:48] and I wanna be cautious of our time other people's behavior and tell them how they should behave. And so, Kathy, you should be patient. Dan, you should have self-control. Matt, you should be more loving as opposed to turning that around and saying, oh, actually maybe I should start with my behavior first. And so, I have enough water, maybe get some sun, like that. That is about all the self-control most days where I'm like, that is a 100 for me.
[01:24:20] And then it is choosing how and what energy I'm going to use to engage with people out
[01:24:27] there. that to other places that are not necessarily productive, but healthier. You know, because production feels very capitalistic and I have to do something to be worthy. It's it's to use that energy to be healthier in who I am. And so I've been listening
[01:25:41] to a lot of audio books because I just go walk around the block that we live in, right? It's like, I've had plenty of those relationships where it's like, we met online, we only communicate online, and then one day we just meet, and then it's like, wow, this is interesting. Yeah, you and I, it was the same thing, right? We know each other online, we finally were at that thing, the conference thing together. Oh my god, I felt so bad for that. That was,
[01:27:01] that was honestly what got me to just leave that whole organization. AYME.
[01:28:07] Yeah, his spot. Um, well, let me do this. Let me, um, because I said, I know time and all that stuff.
[01:28:13] The book is loving disagreement, fighting for a community through the life of the spirit.
[01:28:20] Kathy, thank you so much for coming on. What, um, working folks find you working folks get the book at.
[01:29:41] Um, I know you do yoga as well. I see those posts that pop up, fame faith. Um, Kathy, thanks so much. I'm getting texts from Matt. He is clearly, um, here, let me just put this in. have stories of hurt and pain and stories of triumph during and after their time at evangelical schools. Some of the guests you've probably heard of, but most of them