110 - Meghan & Cortland | Parenting Through Deconstruction, Our Experiences

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:07] Hey, this is Cortland.

[00:00:09] And this is Meghan.

[00:00:11] We're from the Thereafter podcast.

[00:00:13] And we are so excited about our second annual content warning event coming up next February.

[00:00:19] This year, we're going to be in Atlanta, Georgia over President's Day weekend, February 15th and 16th, 2025, with some extra hangout time on Friday, February 14th.

[00:00:31] Content warning is a unique event with more than 20 collaborators who are podcasters, authors, therapists, speakers and creators that want to reinvigorate the conversation happening around sex and sexuality and faith deconstruction spaces.

[00:00:46] We'll have panel discussions, facilitated conversations and even a live stream option for those who can't make it in person.

[00:00:54] Our hope is to make this an annual gathering in various locations as we continue striving to build inclusive community.

[00:01:02] You can find all the event information at contentwarningevent.com.

[00:01:07] Early bird tickets are on sale through October 31st.

[00:01:11] We hope you'll join us there.

[00:01:16] All right.

[00:01:16] Okay.

[00:01:18] Welcome to the Thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:25] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:01:33] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.

[00:01:39] But we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:01:42] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:01:51] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith and the life thereafter.

[00:02:18] Hello.

[00:02:19] How's it going so good?

[00:02:22] I had a first this weekend.

[00:02:24] Really?

[00:02:25] I went to a Renaissance festival for the first time.

[00:02:30] No way!

[00:02:30] Yes!

[00:02:31] I've never been to Ren Fair, so you're one ahead of me.

[00:02:35] It was kind of a whole themed weekend.

[00:02:37] We binge watched the Lord of the Rings extended editions.

[00:02:42] Amazing.

[00:02:42] I was tweeting about it throughout.

[00:02:44] It's kind of a once a year thing, but I didn't know that it was going to be paired with the Renaissance Fair, but it kind of worked out perfectly.

[00:02:50] So...

[00:02:51] That's wonderful.

[00:02:52] Delightful.

[00:02:53] We just did the extended edition and all of the Hobbits extended edition this year.

[00:03:02] Otherwise I would have joined in your watch party.

[00:03:05] But we just, like two months ago, finished the last Hobbit after doing that for a month or so.

[00:03:13] Yeah, next time we'll have to coordinate.

[00:03:15] Yeah.

[00:03:15] It is a nice, like, annual, like, thing to do.

[00:03:20] Like, take a weekend or two, depending on how much you want to get into it.

[00:03:25] But they're lovely films.

[00:03:27] Did you have a good time?

[00:03:28] Did you have fun with it?

[00:03:30] It was great.

[00:03:31] Yeah.

[00:03:31] It's nice to just relax and lay on the couch and, you know.

[00:03:36] Have you been watching Rings of Power?

[00:03:38] I'm sure Justin has.

[00:03:39] I haven't checked it out.

[00:03:40] Yeah, Justin has.

[00:03:41] He really likes it.

[00:03:42] But I haven't checked it out yet.

[00:03:44] I plan to.

[00:03:45] Yeah.

[00:03:46] Yeah.

[00:03:46] I've heard, like, a few different...

[00:03:49] Like, I've heard, like, the normal, like, Lord of the Rings fanboy takes, which I don't care about.

[00:03:54] Speaking of our topic that we're going to get into today, I was, like, having this conversation in front of my son the other day.

[00:03:59] And he was like, well, they do have a point about Tolkien.

[00:04:01] And I was like, shut the fuck up.

[00:04:03] What are you...

[00:04:03] You're not allowed to watch YouTube anymore.

[00:04:06] Oh, that's great.

[00:04:07] Yeah.

[00:04:08] But I have also heard that, like, some people have valid criticism of, like, the showrunners or the writers or whatever, like, kind of, like, not...

[00:04:19] Like, taking a little time to, like...

[00:04:21] Because there isn't, like, a source material like there is with the books, right?

[00:04:26] They're kind of, like, kind of making things up to some extent, which I think is cool.

[00:04:30] I'm not out of the opinion.

[00:04:32] Aren't they from using the appendices, though, for a lot of it?

[00:04:34] The Silmarillion, I think.

[00:04:35] Oh, okay.

[00:04:36] Is kind of the source text.

[00:04:38] But, like, the Silmarillion, I think...

[00:04:40] I'm going to get canceled by nerds.

[00:04:42] Yeah, I know.

[00:04:42] I was just like, we're about to get into something that if this...

[00:04:45] We're going to provide a soundbite and we will not see the light of day after that.

[00:04:50] I feel like it's the history of Middle Earth is the Silmarillion.

[00:04:53] It's, like, more of a historical textbook.

[00:04:56] And so it's, like, lost narrative.

[00:04:58] And so they're building some narrative around these kind of historical events or historical happenings, I think.

[00:05:05] Again, never read a single word of any of the books.

[00:05:09] Let that be said here.

[00:05:12] Have watched all the extended films several times.

[00:05:15] This was partly homework for Cidentity Crisis.

[00:05:18] And so at some point, probably in the near future, we're going to try to talk to...

[00:05:23] Have a couple conversations about Lord of the Rings.

[00:05:25] So in that, we'll get all the clarity.

[00:05:28] I'm sure that people...

[00:05:28] Do you know who you're talking to?

[00:05:30] Probably.

[00:05:31] You know, but you can't tell us.

[00:05:32] I don't want to say it.

[00:05:33] Yes.

[00:05:34] No, that's fair.

[00:05:35] That's understood.

[00:05:36] Understood.

[00:05:37] When we turn the mic off, will you tell me when we stop recording?

[00:05:40] I will absolutely.

[00:05:40] I could text you while we're recording.

[00:05:43] And then I could live react.

[00:05:44] What?

[00:05:44] Like, oh my God.

[00:05:46] You guys got Tolkien back from the dead?

[00:05:48] No, I'm just kidding.

[00:05:50] That's funny.

[00:05:52] So today, Corlyn and I have been thrown around.

[00:05:54] We really enjoy doing these conversation episodes because like we always say, it's just hitting

[00:06:00] record on the things that we talk about anyway.

[00:06:02] And one thing that comes up a lot, I think in deconstruction communities and post-faith spaces,

[00:06:09] is parenting and family dynamics.

[00:06:13] And there's a lot of script flipping on how we were raised versus how we want to parent our kids.

[00:06:23] And I think there's a lot of unknown there.

[00:06:26] And so for me personally, I know I also pull from some of my teaching experience when it

[00:06:32] comes to parenting as well and things that I've learned about trauma and being trauma informed

[00:06:36] and things like that.

[00:06:37] So we're just going to get into it and talk about it.

[00:06:41] And I know I kind of want to start, Cortland, with you because you were really young when you

[00:06:47] had Zeke and not that we're talking specifically about our own children, but like just in general,

[00:06:53] you know, I think that's a good place to start is just to kind of get some general like what

[00:06:58] was the guidance handed to you when you had your first child.

[00:07:02] And I think for you, that probably shifted a little bit because you deconstructed while

[00:07:08] you were parenting and in very drastic contexts.

[00:07:13] Yeah.

[00:07:13] Yeah.

[00:07:14] Yeah.

[00:07:14] And I mean, I will say like, and I've said, I've said this before on the show a little bit.

[00:07:21] I haven't talked a ton about my personal like experience on thereafter, but you know, I mean, I, man,

[00:07:33] I was, I was deep in this, you know, this high control group when I got married, when I had Zeke.

[00:07:40] And so like, even just like the, like getting married and having kids thing was like very

[00:07:45] compulsory.

[00:07:46] It was very like, and, and it's like, I have to be careful now.

[00:07:49] I used to say that a lot more flippantly.

[00:07:53] Um, but like, as Zeke has gotten older, as, as you know, he's like been able to like, you

[00:07:59] know, I've, I've stopped being as livid about like, I never fucking wanted any of this, you

[00:08:06] know, like, uh, that's kind of the way I used to say it, uh, coming right out of it.

[00:08:10] But like the reality was like, I didn't really have this concept.

[00:08:14] I never, I didn't grow up with the dream of like, get married, have kids, build a family

[00:08:20] was never like, I wanted to like hop trains and like live in the woods and like follow

[00:08:29] a band around the country and like not have possessions and like use Taco Bell sauce packets

[00:08:33] as currency.

[00:08:34] And like that, that was like, like my dream going into this thing was this very, um, you

[00:08:42] know, uh, non-traditional life and the actual organization that I got wrapped into kind of

[00:08:49] appealed to that.

[00:08:50] It was a very non-traditional way of like a bunch of people living together and sharing

[00:08:53] all their things and whatever, but like very slowly morphed my mind into this very compulsory

[00:09:01] like, you know, you have to be married, you have to have kids, you have to do these like

[00:09:06] very, you know, cishat mononormative things in order to get people to trust you in order

[00:09:14] to, uh, uh, whatever.

[00:09:16] Right.

[00:09:17] So, so that being said, like there was a ton of this stuff that was not really like my,

[00:09:27] I, I was very excited to let go of it, I guess, to some extent.

[00:09:32] But I also like, like, like think that there is an element of like, I was very absent as

[00:09:40] a father, as a husband, as like a participating party in like really any relationships because

[00:09:48] because I was so like, so vested in this work that we were doing and like serving this

[00:09:57] community and growing this church and like doing, you know, like I was like, that was my work.

[00:10:02] And like, and, and so like, I had to learn, um, very much like, okay, how to be in relationship

[00:10:09] again.

[00:10:10] Um, or for the first time, I guess, with my wife, with, uh, my kiddo.

[00:10:17] And so, um, it's been learning.

[00:10:20] It's been a lot of learning.

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] I think it's interesting that you mentioned to that compulsory piece because I never once

[00:10:28] considered the option to not have kids.

[00:10:32] I think it was, it was just kind of like, Oh, this is what I will be doing.

[00:10:37] And I, I, for me personally, I grew up babysitting since I was 12.

[00:10:43] And, and so I know that, and I loved kids.

[00:10:46] I was around them a lot.

[00:10:47] And so I know I would have had kids, but sometimes I go back and I think to myself, I just would

[00:10:52] have liked to decide to have kids differently, you know?

[00:10:55] And so I still would have had them, but like, I just would have wanted to own that decision

[00:11:00] a bit more instead of feeling like it was just the culmination or the next step in the planned

[00:11:05] script of my, you know, get married, then have kids at a certain point.

[00:11:09] And then, you know, next and next and next.

[00:11:12] And so I think that, that piece is interesting that you bring up because, um, we, we don't

[00:11:17] talk a lot about that in, in that decision.

[00:11:20] Yeah.

[00:11:21] And I don't think I was like, I was the type of person who like, I didn't really enjoy

[00:11:25] childhood.

[00:11:26] Like I meaning that like, I was ready to be done very early.

[00:11:29] I dropped out of school at 16.

[00:11:31] I moved out of my house.

[00:11:33] Even before that, I was like basically living a very independent lifestyle.

[00:11:38] Um, in terms of like working full time at 15, I had my driver's permit at 14.

[00:11:44] Um, in Kansas, you get your restricted license.

[00:11:46] So I was like driving on my own at 15.

[00:11:48] So like, like I was like, like very ready to be done with childhood and, uh, didn't really

[00:11:57] like, like, I love having Zeke being like entering like teenage years.

[00:12:02] And like, I love like, like having, I'm really excited about having adult children, like an

[00:12:09] adult child.

[00:12:10] Like I'm excited about having someone who's a part of my family.

[00:12:13] Um, but it is like, like their own whole person, which like partially like has transitioned

[00:12:21] or transformed like the way I see parenting in general.

[00:12:24] Like, like you really from a very, very early age can begin to see them as their own whole

[00:12:30] person and not like somebody you're having to shape or mold.

[00:12:34] You're really just like, kind of like, you know, making space for this person to emerge.

[00:12:38] You're not shaping a child.

[00:12:41] Right.

[00:12:41] So like the whole, like way we approach that idea of like, like crafting, um, and like,

[00:12:49] I don't know, like, like really like the responsibility of children, not being really independent,

[00:12:57] autonomous individuals, really like, like day one, like as soon as they can make autonomous

[00:13:04] decisions about something, they really should be.

[00:13:07] And you should be like creating space for them to do that.

[00:13:10] Yeah, I have, I actually have a quote from a book that I want to read that relates just

[00:13:14] to that.

[00:13:15] But before that, I want to respond to something you just said, because, um, I recently reflected

[00:13:21] that I said I had babysat my whole life and then I was a teacher for 15 years and I taught

[00:13:26] that up to like the second, third grade age.

[00:13:29] And so it kind of occurred to me in the last year or so that my kids are now reaching an

[00:13:35] age that I have no experience with.

[00:13:37] Like, and I, and so like you saying, like, I can't wait because we're like getting into

[00:13:42] the, um, that teenage fun time.

[00:13:45] I'm like, you know, holding my breath and just hoping that every, I mean, everything's

[00:13:51] going great so far and just a day at a time, but I'm like, oh shoot.

[00:13:55] Like I am now in new territory.

[00:13:57] Now on the flip side, um, a lot of folks know that I'm dating Justin Gentry and, and

[00:14:02] he has kids too.

[00:14:03] And, and we talk about this kind of stuff and he was a youth pastor for a while.

[00:14:07] And so like, this is an age that he has a lot of experience with.

[00:14:11] And so it's something that we, I just think is interesting knowing like, okay, this is

[00:14:16] different scenarios that I've navigated.

[00:14:18] But to your point that you just said, I think when I was becoming a parent, I spent a lot

[00:14:26] of time just kind of wondering what does, what does success look like as a parent?

[00:14:33] How would I define success?

[00:14:34] Because I think for a lot of folks, a lot of us that were raised in evangelicalism, um,

[00:14:40] you know, the, a lot of our parents went to James Dobson to define what good parenting

[00:14:46] looks like.

[00:14:46] And I think for a lot of our parents success looked like your kid makes it to their wedding

[00:14:53] day without having sex.

[00:14:55] Your kid doesn't drink or use drugs.

[00:14:59] Your kid is very involved in church and very publicly part of the church.

[00:15:04] And, and so I think that there were things that I thought, okay, well, what if some of those

[00:15:07] things don't matter?

[00:15:08] Like, what if I'm deconstructing purity culture and, and you know, some of that's like, that's

[00:15:14] not my definition of successful sexual ethics or what if, you know, I like, and so that was

[00:15:22] something that I've wrestled with for a while.

[00:15:23] And I have a couple of parenting books that I'll recommend at some point, but, um, I'm curious

[00:15:27] if that was a question that you wrestled with and if, if you have an answer to that, because

[00:15:32] I've had some conversations too and gotten some interesting responses.

[00:15:35] Yeah.

[00:15:36] About like what we're, what we're aspiring to as like what we want, you know, like at

[00:15:41] the end, like when Zeke turn becomes an adult, you'll, if like looking back, you'll be like

[00:15:46] that, that was, I, I was successful as a parent for this, like, and this is how I know, or

[00:15:52] I was unsuccessful as a parent and this is how I know.

[00:15:55] Yeah.

[00:15:56] I mean, I don't, I don't know if I have anything that like is, is like complete enough to be

[00:16:04] able to like be encapsulated in like a single statement.

[00:16:06] Like to some extent, like, like it's like, I, I would want him to be like happy and fulfilled.

[00:16:13] Right.

[00:16:14] But I also like, like, like don't like, I know that like happiness, you know, air quotes

[00:16:20] like, like, you know, is, is somewhat an elusive and like not real definable thing.

[00:16:28] Right.

[00:16:28] Um, and so I think more than anything, like I, like ideally would want my kid to feel like

[00:16:42] loved and accepted and like valued and like they have a space to be like however and whoever

[00:16:53] they turn out to be.

[00:16:57] Yeah.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] Um, I, I feel that for sure.

[00:17:01] I, I, sorry.

[00:17:03] I just like, I have to, whoo man.

[00:17:07] All right.

[00:17:07] Justin just came in and handed me a plate of pizza.

[00:17:09] Uh, I, I had that same thought.

[00:17:11] I wasn't going to say it out loud.

[00:17:12] I couldn't help myself.

[00:17:14] Sorry.

[00:17:15] Go ahead.

[00:17:16] Um, well, okay.

[00:17:18] So I had one person respond to this question in a really interesting way.

[00:17:22] Um, and I, I didn't talk to them ahead of time about naming them.

[00:17:26] And so, um, but I, I, I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I told this story, but they said that,

[00:17:32] um, success for them would, would be the ability for their child to come back later as an adult

[00:17:37] and give critical feedback on how they were as a parent and to be able to have an open

[00:17:42] enough relationship that you're able to have that conversation, which I thought was so fascinating.

[00:17:46] Cause I know that that is an important thing to be able to have like a response, you know?

[00:17:53] Mm hmm.

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:53] Yeah.

[00:17:54] But I also wanted to, so I have this, I have a couple of books that are like when people

[00:17:58] are asking about parenting resources that are always my go-to books.

[00:18:01] Um, and one of them is called, I can put them in the show notes too.

[00:18:05] One of them is called raising human beings by Ross green.

[00:18:08] Ross green is somebody that's published in the education world.

[00:18:11] Um, so now has moved into, um, parenting, which is amazing, but he, his whole book is about collaborative

[00:18:21] parenting.

[00:18:22] And he says that the most crucial tasks, the most crucial task of your child's development

[00:18:29] is that they need to figure out who they are, their skills, preferences, beliefs, values,

[00:18:35] personality traits, goals, and direction, get comfortable with it, and then pursue and live

[00:18:42] a life that is congruent with that.

[00:18:44] And as a parent, you have that task too.

[00:18:48] You need to figure out who your child is, get comfortable with it, and then help them

[00:18:51] live that life that's congruent with that.

[00:18:53] And I think that's exactly what you're saying, Cortland is like valuing them for who they

[00:18:58] are and then supporting them and kind of flourishing within that.

[00:19:04] I don't know what, how does that resonate with you?

[00:19:06] Well, I take a bite of pizza.

[00:19:07] Yeah.

[00:19:08] Yeah.

[00:19:08] Go for it.

[00:19:08] I, you know, I mean, I think it is like, uh, not needing it to be, uh, you know, clear

[00:19:18] cut and like, like easily digestible is part of the newness and the difference of, you know,

[00:19:26] these more, you know, linear, very like, uh, uh, fixed, uh, ways in which measuring success

[00:19:38] is a thing, right?

[00:19:39] Like, like, I, I think that there is this like ongoing, um, conversation piece that you're

[00:19:49] hitting on both with that quote and with that story of that person saying like, Hey, this

[00:19:54] is what, um, success is, is like being able to have this like ongoing conversation about,

[00:20:01] you know, what worked and what didn't.

[00:20:03] Um, I think that getting comfortable with that is a big shift from the way in which, you know,

[00:20:14] I guess like, you know, I experienced being parented or being raised because there are these moments

[00:20:23] where I'm like, like uncomfortable about like, Oh, do I want, I want, I want to know that I did a good job

[00:20:33] or that I'm doing a good job.

[00:20:35] And so like when something pops up and you're like, Oh man, that thing happened.

[00:20:39] And that's going to reflect on me, not making it about me, not making even it about my kiddo,

[00:20:47] but making it about what is this opportunity now that we're in now, whatever that is, right?

[00:20:52] There was a fight at school or there was something that was disappointing or, you know, there was, uh, uh,

[00:20:57] something happened and I'm like, Ooh, I wish this didn't happen.

[00:21:00] But like, this is an opportunity to have a conversation, to talk about this thing, to, you know, it doesn't have to be, I don't know.

[00:21:11] I was talking with my, my, my mom and Cody who edits this podcast.

[00:21:16] Um, I've talked to him a little bit about this and so I'm, there's no way for me to hide identities because I only have one brother, uh, and one mother.

[00:21:25] So, um, but like my brothers is currently, um, in a recovery journey, uh, getting sober, staying sober and had a relapse.

[00:21:38] And I was talking to my mom about it and the way that my mom and dad and like the way that we were wired up is like, like, no, we can't, we can't say that's okay.

[00:21:48] You know?

[00:21:48] And I was like trying to coach my mom and like relapse is a part of recovery.

[00:21:51] Relapse is a part of like, like this is just, it's, it is an opportunity to reset your sober date, to figure out, to like, kind of like, you know, figure out what happened, you know?

[00:22:01] And go like, okay, here's what happened. Here's some ways that I can get some new tools to take on whatever made me, you know, drop the ball there on my sobriety.

[00:22:09] It is not a failure. It is, this is a learning opportunity. This is the next step in recovery, right? Whatever, whatever.

[00:22:18] We were not taught, you know, and my mom, she just kept wanting to be like, well, if you, if you say that it's okay to relapse, then, then people are going to relapse every day.

[00:22:27] And I'm like, nope, no, that's not how that works. It's, it's, it is okay to mess up. It's okay to get things wrong. It's okay to, and so I think that's the biggest thing is like, like not having this discomfort for like when, you know, my kid says something that I'm like, oh, that's wrong. Oh, I wish, why did you think that? Why did you, in this like sense of like, like, I want to correct.

[00:22:47] I want to be like embarrassed about the fact that that happened and just go like, oh, here's an opportunity. Like why? Like something is like, I'm like trying not to use too many personal examples, but like, I remember my son saying, like, I said something about Nazis and he's like, well, why are Nazis bad? And I'm like, oh, like I, like even the fact that you asked that question, what the fuck? You know, like, but I'm like, oh, this is a great opportunity. Like, I was like, why do you think that they are bad? Like, should we do some research about Nazis?

[00:23:14] And like, let's talk about like, like, like not pulling back, but leaning into a conversation with my kid about things.

[00:23:22] Well, and I think the key that you're hitting on or kind of dancing around is control, right? Because I think that our parents, it was very important that we had a very specific set of beliefs about death, about religion, about heaven and hell that, and, and also that we were obedient because that was the big James Dobson.

[00:23:44] Peace, that was a big, you know, and if to the degree where, and I'll give a trigger warning, because we'll talk a little bit about spanking here, to the degree where if you're not obedient and if you're not following the specific rule, then pretty much all measures are on the table to force you into obedience, including spanking, even recommended spanking.

[00:24:04] And depending on the kind of sect of evangelicalism that you were a part of, that might have been a very extreme part of your upbringing and, or it might have been, you know, a minor part, you know, but either way, that was a part for a lot of us.

[00:24:18] And so I think there's, once you remove that control piece, that forced element of, I have to ensure that my children believe this thing, then you open it up for a lot more of those collaborative conversations.

[00:24:31] I mean, I was just talking to my oldest, we've had a lot of conversations about politics, right?

[00:24:36] They're seeing all the signs they're seeing, now they're seeing a lot of political ads.

[00:24:40] They're asking about abortion.

[00:24:41] They're asking what that is, you know, and, but they're seeing signs in, you know, Harris and, and Trump and, and we're talking about the debate and things like that.

[00:24:52] And so I've been trying to kind of have these conversations, but I remember saying to my oldest, here's, you know, what I think about things.

[00:25:00] And also, as you get older, you might start to have your own opinions about some of these things.

[00:25:06] And I just want you to know, like, like, or maybe your friends in their houses, like their parents think differently than I do.

[00:25:13] And that doesn't necessarily mean, you know, this particular thing is, is right just because I said it.

[00:25:20] It's, it's what I believe and what I strongly adhere to.

[00:25:23] But I just want you to know, like, as you get older, you're going to have your own sense of values and beliefs about these things.

[00:25:29] And so I was like, if your friends on the playground are talking about these things, then, you know, just know that just because I said it doesn't mean that's what everybody thinks.

[00:25:36] And her response was, well, my, she's, she's 12, right?

[00:25:40] Her friends, she's like, my friends don't really talk about politics.

[00:25:44] So it's great.

[00:25:46] I was like, yeah, that's, that's fair.

[00:25:48] That's super fair.

[00:25:49] But I do think the key there is control.

[00:25:53] And I have a little bit more to say about that, but I want to hear your thoughts first.

[00:25:57] Yeah.

[00:25:57] I mean, I just, I just think it's an element of, of, like, really actively, like, being aware that, like, we are conditioned to think in a certain way, right?

[00:26:09] Like, we're conditioned.

[00:26:10] I'm conditioned.

[00:26:11] I'm going to have these responses.

[00:26:14] Um, I mean, especially, like, like, you mentioned, I mean, I had, I had my kid at 22.

[00:26:24] I was, you know, just barely out of being parented myself.

[00:26:31] And so, like, I'm going to just sometimes, like, click back into the way I was conditioned to think about things.

[00:26:41] And it's kind of a, you know, it's, it is, it's kind of a mindfuck in some ways that you're like, oh, I want my, my kiddo to rebel and kind of question authority.

[00:26:56] Like, I want them to have some of those experiences of, you know, resistance and of self-differentiation.

[00:27:05] Self-differentiation.

[00:27:07] Self-differentiation.

[00:27:07] I'm adding a syllable in there.

[00:27:08] But, like, differentiating themselves from me and from, you know, this identity that they were kind of handed and kind of building on this new identity that they're getting to create.

[00:27:20] And that's happening right now in that, like, middle school years that my kid is going through right now at a really rapid pace.

[00:27:28] And so, like, it's, it is, it's holding the tension of the both and.

[00:27:33] And, and very much in the same way I have to hold that tension as a child, an adult child still to my parents, right?

[00:27:46] That, like, I have to hold the expectations.

[00:27:50] Sometimes I'm like, oh, man, I have these expectations of what my parents should be.

[00:27:53] And they're not that.

[00:27:56] And, and there's grief there or there's, you know, you know, there is emotions that you have to work through and process.

[00:28:07] But really just, like, like the, the non-linear nature, I think, of all things is a big change in view.

[00:28:19] And, and the permanence, right?

[00:28:21] So, like, and I think both of those things tie into that control element that you said.

[00:28:26] Um, yeah.

[00:28:28] One thing that I'll say about that and just a little bit into, because what I pulled, one of the things that kind of led into a lot of my parenting was my teaching experience too.

[00:28:39] And seeing kids that have experienced trauma and seeing the broad spectrum of neurodivergence as well.

[00:28:47] And knowing that every, every child has different ways of de-escalating and navigating problems.

[00:28:57] I know, um, with my oldest, she's somebody that when she has something that she's upset about, she wants to withdraw and go and just kind of take some time to herself.

[00:29:10] My youngest, when she's upset, she wants me to sit with her and, and kind of work through that together.

[00:29:15] And so I, I read this book.

[00:29:16] It was called No Drama Discipline.

[00:29:18] And it's from the authors of The Whole Brain Child and just talks a lot about each individual child and having a little bit of flexibility.

[00:29:28] And so I think, like, it goes from that.

[00:29:30] If you're somebody that was raised with that, like, I'm going to count to five.

[00:29:35] And by the time I get to five, or I'm going to count backwards from five.

[00:29:39] And by the time I get to one, you better have done the thing that I asked you to do.

[00:29:43] And if you don't, there's a consequence.

[00:29:45] And I was kind of, like, brought up to believe in, even in babysitting and in all the experience I had as I went through teaching, that that was the way to do it.

[00:29:54] That, that you had to kind of set your expectation and have a consequence if that expectation wasn't met.

[00:29:59] And what I've learned is, like, for, for a child that is neurodivergent, first of all, to have a countdown with that expectation, that is going to escalate so fast.

[00:30:14] And I learned that in the classroom.

[00:30:16] For somebody that's experienced trauma, that can be a trigger.

[00:30:20] That can be activating.

[00:30:21] And, and I think applying those strategies, and I think about my own children, and also the thought of, like, I need you.

[00:30:31] I think that kind of combined with that in this book, it talks about, like, when you are kind of, like, go have your fit.

[00:30:37] Go to your room or go sit in timeout and go have your fit.

[00:30:41] And then when you calm down, you can come and address the problem.

[00:30:45] Like I said, my youngest, like, she needed me to sit with her during that fit.

[00:30:50] And she needed to know that I was there, whether she had extreme emotions that she didn't understand or whether she was able to have it together.

[00:30:59] And, and it talks a lot about your brain and what's happening and how you flip your lid and you have your upstairs brain and your downstairs brain.

[00:31:05] And, and sometimes they, you know, and there's a whole thing about it.

[00:31:09] But essentially, I've, I've been able to tell that to my kids.

[00:31:12] And I would do that with my students.

[00:31:13] I would teach them about their brains and their amygdala and all of that.

[00:31:17] And to be able to say, hey, sometimes you get hot, like, without even trying.

[00:31:21] You get, like, it just happens.

[00:31:23] You flip your lid, you know, and, and you escalate.

[00:31:25] And just know that we have strategies.

[00:31:30] We have ways to get through that.

[00:31:31] That's not the end of the world when that happens.

[00:31:33] And so that book really shifted my approach to parenting because I no longer was this expectation needs to be met or else.

[00:31:42] And I was also open to when my kids wanted to push back.

[00:31:46] If I said, hey, like, we are done with phones right now.

[00:31:51] We're going to put them away or tablets or whatever.

[00:31:53] And if my daughter is like, hey, I just, I was in a group chat and, and I just want to let them know that I'm done and I want to put that away.

[00:32:03] I mean, I think some people would be like, nope, I said done.

[00:32:05] We're done.

[00:32:06] You know, but I think having that flexibility where they have a little bit of autonomy and they have a say and they have an ability to, not because they're disobedient or not because they're, I don't know, questioning or, you know, trying to be rebellious.

[00:32:20] But they just have an ability because they're humans with autonomy to be able to say, hey, can I have a say in this?

[00:32:27] Can I have a little bit of flexibility here?

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:31] I think, I mean, at the heart of so much of this is just a like collaborative and use the word collaborative parenting, right?

[00:32:38] Like, like there is this like collaborative curiosity, right?

[00:32:43] Of like going like, hey, we're going to be curious about what's happening here together.

[00:32:46] We're both going to admit that like we may be learning things as we go, like we may change course as we go.

[00:32:54] So, and that like the goal is to stick in it together and to like keep adapting and figuring it out, not to like, you know, do it right or get to some end or, you know, like, you know, like whatever, whatever the linear idea of that would be is like.

[00:33:14] Like, I also think that like acknowledging like real time, real world expectations or consequences versus like, like I've never been one for like, like creating consequences because it's like, dude, I'm not going to be able to create consequences near as well as like, let's both just kind of sit here and figure out what's, what might happen if we do this, you know?

[00:33:37] Hey, if you do this thing, if you bring your coat to the pumpkin patch, you might not be cold.

[00:33:43] And if you don't bring it, you might be cold.

[00:33:46] And like, I'm not going to necessarily instigate some sort of, I'm going to do my best in that moment to help you, right?

[00:33:54] Like, I'm not going to ever be the dad that's like, well, you didn't bring your coat, tough shit, freeze.

[00:33:58] You know, like if I have the ability to make you warm, I'm definitely going to collaboratively work with you to make you warm.

[00:34:07] This stuff is outside of my hands.

[00:34:08] And so like, how can we, you know, it's this kind of idea that like, we're doing this thing together.

[00:34:13] There's not this very hierarchical, I'm all controlling, all powerful, all, you know, it's like we both acknowledge there are factors outside of our control.

[00:34:23] And I think there's, there's an aspect of like siblings and co-parenting to there that goes like, hey, the way you have to deal with things when you're with grandparents is going to be a little bit different.

[00:34:35] Hey, let's prepare for what that's like.

[00:34:37] Hey, when you're with this co-parent or when you're with this sibling, you know, you know that, you know, things can get escalated a lot faster and you might, you know, and just kind of like being curious about what that means versus this.

[00:34:53] There's this one way.

[00:34:54] Here's the way that we do it.

[00:34:55] It's like, no, there's actually a ton of different tools that we can have to deal with these things.

[00:35:00] Yeah, for sure.

[00:35:01] And it was really interesting because I watched through all of Full House and Fuller House with my kids.

[00:35:06] And then I watched through Gilmore Girls.

[00:35:07] And I know I've talked about that a lot.

[00:35:08] But the parenting in there has been really fascinating because sometimes even during Full House, I would pause it and be like, is that how you would react if your child did that?

[00:35:17] And one specific instance that I remember, there's this famous episode where Stephanie climbs behind the wheel of a car in the backyard and the keys happen to be in the ignition.

[00:35:26] And she thinks she's like turning on the radio.

[00:35:28] And she accidentally puts the car in reverse and drives it through the kitchen.

[00:35:34] And so they have this big whole thing.

[00:35:36] And and then she's grounded.

[00:35:38] And I was like, you know, I don't know if I would have given her like a consequence in the sense in the sense that it was like you need to be grounded to think about what you did, because it was an absolute accident.

[00:35:52] An adult left her with the keys in the car.

[00:35:55] And also, like she was really freaked out by driving the car through the kitchen.

[00:36:00] It's not something she intended to do or is planning to do again, you know.

[00:36:04] And so my kids and I had this big discussion on whether that that was an appropriate consequence.

[00:36:10] And then like fast forward and Gilmore Girls like, you know, Lorelai is pretty close, like pretty collaborative with Rory.

[00:36:17] Okay. First time Rory. It's a spoiler, but this show has been on for 10 years.

[00:36:22] You could spoil it.

[00:36:25] First time Rory has sex.

[00:36:27] It's with her ex boyfriend from high school, but he's married at the time.

[00:36:34] And it's so he's cheating on his wife with Rory.

[00:36:39] And Lorelai is like, this isn't right.

[00:36:41] And she she says that.

[00:36:43] And so it's like she's really sex positive.

[00:36:45] She's not resistant to the fact that Rory had sex.

[00:36:48] She's resistant to the fact that she did it in this unethical way.

[00:36:52] And I thought that was so interesting.

[00:36:54] And my girls and I talked about that, too, because we were like, what like what what the problem here is not what she did.

[00:37:02] It's that she did it with somebody that was married and and that was not in their relationship agreements, you know.

[00:37:08] And so that it was it's just interesting to have those conversations when you see parenting in action.

[00:37:13] I don't know. Have you had those moments where you've seen a parenting decision or maybe and maybe it's not on TV or I don't know.

[00:37:20] Or do you have any thoughts about that?

[00:37:22] Totally.

[00:37:23] I mean, I mean, we we have these conversations with like obviously there are like, you know, other kids on the sports teams or in the schools or, you know, family members or whatever that are going to get parented in different ways.

[00:37:35] And it's like, you know, I mean, I you know, I know people who are, you know, you know, somebody messes with you.

[00:37:43] You always hit back. You got to fight type of parent, you know, like that's how some people parent.

[00:37:48] Right. You know. And so we've talked about like, OK, like what is you know, what is your thoughts on the utility?

[00:37:54] And like Zeke and I have even disagreed. I'm like I'm like, I think that, you know, there are very few times where.

[00:38:03] Fighting physically is just productive, like it's just like when I think about like what it ends up producing very few times.

[00:38:12] And so like and and, you know, I've had moments where he is like he's like, yeah, well, I do think, you know, you know, if you if you hit this person, then they'll stop messing with you know, we're talking about this hypothetical bully or this hypothetical.

[00:38:24] You know, and like being willing to like let him like kind of play that out and go like, no, this is, you know, always bad.

[00:38:33] This is always, you know, because again, there's this like there's so many different factors.

[00:38:39] There's so many different ways to look at things.

[00:38:43] And it's not hierarchical.

[00:38:46] And I think that that is really the thing that it keeps coming back around to that, like the structure that I was handed to of like, you know, again, the umbrellas of authority and the like father, you know, church, God, father, mother, children, you know, that whole kind of like very hierarchical structure of like, you know, when this is said, it's gospel.

[00:39:12] It's it is the way it is.

[00:39:14] Right.

[00:39:15] I even think about this time that like, like my dad did this thing where like we were being and I'm sure this is out of a Dobson book or something, but like we were being punished.

[00:39:24] We were supposed to be spanked.

[00:39:25] And then like we went into the bedroom or whatever.

[00:39:29] And instead of that, like my dad did push ups or something.

[00:39:32] He like took the punishment.

[00:39:34] Right.

[00:39:34] And he was like, you know, this is me taking the punishment.

[00:39:38] And it was like this gospel message.

[00:39:40] Right.

[00:39:40] Like like you should have been spanked, but I'm taking that.

[00:39:43] I'm doing this.

[00:39:44] The push ups or whatever.

[00:39:45] Didn't let us bank him, unfortunately.

[00:39:47] But like he was he was like, I'm going to take the punishment, you know, and it's this idea that there is, you know, that there's this linear hierarchical way that like these consequences or these punishments are doled out.

[00:39:59] And I really love this idea of like encouraging my kid to kind of subvert that and ask questions about it.

[00:40:08] I mentioned it on the podcast before, but I remember like several years ago, my parents taking Zeke to a gospel, you know, like passion play thing.

[00:40:16] And the devil, you know, is running around with horns and throwing people in the lake of fire.

[00:40:21] And like my kids take away from that.

[00:40:23] He was like, maybe the devil is just like misunderstood.

[00:40:26] Like he's got horns.

[00:40:27] He's red.

[00:40:28] He's red.

[00:40:28] He's very different.

[00:40:29] Like like why?

[00:40:30] Like maybe he's just like people just keep assuming that he's bad, but he's not actually bad.

[00:40:35] He's just very misunderstood.

[00:40:37] And he's like and I'm like, what a way to like watch the gospel play and like really deconstruct it.

[00:40:44] Like that was his like like they're just assuming that like this guy is the bad guy because he's wearing red and he has horns.

[00:40:50] Like what if he just looks that way?

[00:40:52] And like we're just like making him bad guy because he looks because we're judging him based on how he looks.

[00:40:59] And I'm like, that's an awesome way to like think about it.

[00:41:03] That's an awesome way to like let's let's talk about that.

[00:41:06] Let's think about that.

[00:41:09] There isn't a right answer here.

[00:41:11] There's just a way for us to be able to be open and curious.

[00:41:15] I love that curiosity.

[00:41:17] I do want to say like I I have one more thing that I want to talk about.

[00:41:23] But before that, I just want to say the contrast.

[00:41:26] So there's collaborative parenting and then there's the authoritarian parenting or authoritative parenting style.

[00:41:33] And I remember reading a book about because I was going through my divorce and there's some book called I think it's like two.

[00:41:39] I'm not recommending this.

[00:41:41] It's like two child two households, one childhood or something like that.

[00:41:45] And it was it kind of gave some great advice about just, you know, divorce in general.

[00:41:50] But it kept coming back to like all the different parenting advice.

[00:41:53] It was always like just make sure you know who's boss.

[00:41:56] Just make sure you know who's boss.

[00:41:57] And I was like this isn't.

[00:41:58] And that's when I realized there was this contrast between collaborative and authoritarian.

[00:42:02] But something that is a pet peeve of mine is when people tell their kids to do things for them that they can do themselves.

[00:42:10] But they'll be like, hey, go get me.

[00:42:12] Go get me a sheet of paper from the printer.

[00:42:14] Go get me, you know, a soda from the fridge.

[00:42:17] Go get me this.

[00:42:18] And it's like I can ask my kids like, hey, do you mind grabbing a drink while you're up?

[00:42:22] The way that I would ask a friend to do that.

[00:42:24] But the way that parents abuse their authority, that's a pretty small example, I think.

[00:42:28] But like just the you have to do this for me.

[00:42:32] And there's a consequence if you don't.

[00:42:35] That I think is what really started to put all the red flags out there for me.

[00:42:40] But along with that, I think we've established we want to be more collaborative.

[00:42:44] But one thing that I just want to talk a little bit about before we wrap because we're getting close to the end is how we approach queerness.

[00:42:51] Because I think that's a huge piece of being whoever you are, being whatever you want to be.

[00:42:58] And I think there's a lot of people in our community that either whether they're queer or not have distinct moments or memories in their lives when they had their parents signal to them how they felt about being queer.

[00:43:14] Whether it's like my parents were watching a news story and made a really derogatory comment about it.

[00:43:19] Or my parents were, you know, talking about a friend of theirs and talking about how weird something was.

[00:43:26] And I think we're getting to a generation where kids are a little more allowed to be themselves and be fully queer.

[00:43:34] Or not even it's I mean, you've said before, like, when are people going to start having to come out as straight?

[00:43:39] Right.

[00:43:40] I was going to say, I just want to make a household that's safe enough for my kid to someday come out as straight.

[00:43:44] Like, that's I want it to feel comfy enough for him if that if that ends up being his truth.

[00:43:53] Yeah, but I think I mean, it's definitely something that I've tried to be really intentional about.

[00:43:57] I know, I think I've said this before on the pod that I watched an episode of Friends and with my kids and Chandler's dating a girl that is she's married and she has a boyfriend and then she's also dating Chandler and everybody's OK with it.

[00:44:13] And all the friends are like, why would she be so selfish?

[00:44:16] And I like paused it.

[00:44:17] I was like, you know, some people are not monogamous, you know, it's like and so I'm just trying to just make sure that they understand that there's an expansion.

[00:44:25] Or like when I ask them if sometimes I'll be like, oh, do you you know, is there anybody that you're interested in?

[00:44:31] And I'm I make sure to not say like any boys that you have a crush on versus like girl, you know, or like versus I just I want to make sure I'm removing that binary.

[00:44:42] Is that something you've been thinking about intentionally as you've brought up your own kiddo?

[00:44:47] Totally, totally.

[00:44:47] And I think that there is it there is a intentionality to it that you talk about that like specifically in the inverse is like I don't want to talk about I don't want to always find myself talking about these things in contrast with whatever like the normative thing is.

[00:45:12] Right. So like, yeah, sometimes like I feel like it's like, oh, but like girls can also like baseball or whatever.

[00:45:19] Like like we're always like trying to kind of like highlight the other side of a like problematic normative example.

[00:45:28] Right. So like we see, you know, well, boys will be boys here.

[00:45:31] And it's like, oh, well, not all boys this or not all girls this or, you know, sometimes some, you know, like always talking about it in reference to the normative idea.

[00:45:45] And so like I sometimes like don't take those moments and try to find other moments to highlight different gender expression or queerness or other non normative identities and realities without always having to call out the normativity.

[00:46:12] Right. Right. Yeah. I think that that's what becomes. I start to feel like the way my parents used to like not let us just watch TV because it would be like, you know, oh, three million years ago this and my mom would be like, well, didn't actually wasn't actually three million years ago.

[00:46:31] It was six thousand years ago. The Bible says that. And it's like, can we just watch the fucking movie? It's land before time. It's not that serious.

[00:46:37] It doesn't have to be a theological moment. And so like.

[00:46:41] So wait, is this what my kids are saying about what I do when I pause friends?

[00:46:45] No, no, no. I'm not specifically saying I'm just saying like like I think that like I'm very prone to always having to correct the problematic thing or correct the normative, be, you know, add the expansive thing.

[00:46:59] And I think sometimes my kid is like, OK, dad, we get it. Like, you know, it's like, you know, anytime sex is mentioned, it's like, well, sex doesn't just have to be one man and one woman.

[00:47:09] It could be two women and two men or two non-binary people and a man and a woman.

[00:47:12] And my kid's like, listen, dad, you don't have to get into it. That's you're being weird. You're making it weird.

[00:47:18] But like, can we come up with other creative, interesting relational ways to talk about maybe queer artists or talk about queer art or watch a queer movie or highlight some sort of trans joy or like, you know, friends.

[00:47:37] Like I've had friends, you know, trans friends who have gotten to know Zeke.

[00:47:42] And then a year plus later, like I'm like, oh, you know, so and so is doing this trans visibility thing.

[00:47:50] And they could be like, they're trans. And I'm like, yeah, they're trans.

[00:47:53] Like and like no clue, no idea that like like they're getting to know that person in their identity, who they are.

[00:48:00] And then kind of like learning that like, oh, all of these people around me are actually way more expansive and don't fit in to all the buckets that maybe maybe I thought they did.

[00:48:13] And so like I do think there's a place for challenging normativity, but I also think there's a place for us like learning how to highlight non normativity or expressive identities in ways that don't always center cis, straight, hetero, you know, mono, monosexual identity.

[00:48:33] I mean, even even monosexuality, right, to like always center gay people or straight people and not talk about the huge amount of bisexual people that there are, you know, and really talking about, you know, you know, polysexuality, right?

[00:48:52] And like pansexuality, like all the different types of sexuality that expand across this big spectrum between gay and straight.

[00:48:59] Yeah. And I would say, too, I'm having conversations with my kids about race, too.

[00:49:04] And, you know, it's it's as as they get older, I'm sure that'll be more.

[00:49:09] But I had a situation and I'll just give like I kind of caused a microaggression in a store and I'll and I'll give this example and I'll give a little warning.

[00:49:19] But I was shopping in a store with my daughter and I thought there was a black woman that I asked for directions to the bathroom and she was on the floor helping her partner try on shoes.

[00:49:32] And she was like, I do not work here. And I immediately knew that that's something that happens sometimes to, I think, especially black women and mistaken for an employee when they're shopping.

[00:49:44] And and I knew in that moment that like my instinct was to try to have that person make repair.

[00:49:52] Like, oh, gosh, I know I'm so sorry. Like I, you know, but I, you know, I apologized and I moved on.

[00:49:58] And then when we got in the car, I talked to my daughter about it and I was like, that was really wrong for me to do.

[00:50:04] And I'm going to pay much better attention next time.

[00:50:07] And I mistook her because she was, you know, sitting on the floor helping her partner.

[00:50:11] So she looked like an employee at the time. And she said, you know, this is my partner and I'm helping her.

[00:50:17] And and so I said, but I also want you to understand why this was so wrong, because there are some stereotypes.

[00:50:24] And I kind of got into it and explained it. And and my daughter was like, yeah, that was pretty bad, mom.

[00:50:29] And it's like, but but I want her to see those things and I want her to know those things and have those be teachable moments, too.

[00:50:37] And I also, in general, want my kids to know when I screw up, too, because I want them to know that I'm human and capable of making mistakes and capable of doing things differently than how I would want them to do them.

[00:50:51] So I just yeah, I think it's we've we've covered a lot here.

[00:50:56] We've kind of wandered in and out. Do you have anything any final words here?

[00:51:00] I mean, I think the world is changing so rapidly and.

[00:51:07] I think that it's difficult to grow up in the world today.

[00:51:15] In different ways, you know, like in some ways, sure.

[00:51:20] Sure. Like kids today can get access to, you know, education and queer creators and like, you know, like all these different things that like, man, my little self couldn't do and didn't have access to.

[00:51:35] But also, I mean, so many kids by the time they're 15, 16, they've got documented mistakes on the Internet that are never going away.

[00:51:46] Yeah, that's a whole like whole different ballgame of like what it means to grow up when you can go like, oh, man, everything that I'm embarrassed or ashamed of lives in a Facebook memory that I may not even own.

[00:52:00] Maybe my parents posted, you know.

[00:52:02] Yeah.

[00:52:02] And so like it is it is hard to grow up and it's only getting more complicated.

[00:52:10] I won't say getting harder, but it's getting more complicated.

[00:52:13] And so like, you know, all of us that are trying our best, I just encourage everyone, like, just keep trying.

[00:52:22] We're trying our best.

[00:52:23] We're working to learn as we go.

[00:52:26] And it's nonlinear.

[00:52:29] It's not going to be exact.

[00:52:33] And things like success are going to be a moving metric.

[00:52:40] Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, too, because I think social media, I mean, we just didn't touch on it as much and it does play a huge role, too.

[00:52:48] So but I'm sure we could talk for another hour.

[00:52:51] But this is kind of we wanted to just give this more general overview and kind of wander through.

[00:52:58] And so I think this is a good place to wrap up and maybe we'll revisit this again sometime.

[00:53:03] Yeah.

[00:53:03] And maybe we'll have a guest on and to talk about this sort of thing.

[00:53:06] If anybody has ideas, hit us up in the social medias or on the discord or whatever and recommend some folks.

[00:53:14] I have a couple of people that come to mind, but would love to maybe have a guest on for a larger conversation about parenting and childhood development and all that.

[00:53:24] Yeah.

[00:53:25] Well, where can people find you, Portland?

[00:53:28] I'm Portland Coffee all over the Internet, wherever you might be.

[00:53:33] Twitter and threads mostly these days, but I dabble in other places.

[00:53:38] So, yeah, give it a Google.

[00:53:40] You'll find me.

[00:53:40] And I'm the Pursuing Life in all the places.

[00:53:43] And you can find the podcast at Thereafter Podcast on Instagram, Thereafter Pod on Twitter.

[00:53:50] And check out our Patreon, patreon.com slash thereafterpod.

[00:53:56] Yep.

[00:53:56] And thereafterpod.com will take you to links to all the things, including the Patreon, the social media, some of our interviews around the web on other podcasts,

[00:54:07] as well as at the very top there, you'll see a link to Content Warning.

[00:54:12] Go check that out.

[00:54:13] We hope to see you there.

[00:54:14] Yep.

[00:54:15] Come hang out with us in Atlanta.

[00:54:17] All right.

[00:54:18] Until next time.

[00:54:19] Until next time.

[00:54:20] Until next time.