109 - Meghan & Cortland | Relationship Legibility - A Conversation on Polyamory, Divorce, Queerness & More

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:08] Hey, this is Cortland and this is Meghan. We're from the Thereafter podcast.

[00:00:14] And we are so excited about our second annual content warning event coming up next February.

[00:00:20] This year we're gonna be in Atlanta, Georgia over President's Day weekend, February 15th and 16th

[00:00:26] 2025 with some extra hangout time on Friday, February 14th.

[00:00:32] Content warning is a unique event with more than 20 collaborators who are podcasters, authors, therapists, speakers and creators

[00:00:40] that want to reinvigorate the conversation happening around sex and sexuality in faith deconstruction spaces.

[00:00:47] We'll have panel discussions, facilitated conversations and even a live stream option for those who can't make it in person.

[00:00:55] Our hope is to make this an annual gathering in various locations as we continue striving to build an inclusive community.

[00:01:02] You can find all the event information at contentwarningevent.com

[00:01:08] Early bird tickets are on sale through October 31st.

[00:01:11] We hope you'll join us there.

[00:01:14] Alright.

[00:01:15] Okay.

[00:01:17] Welcome to the Thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:24] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:01:32] In church we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.

[00:01:38] But we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:01:41] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:01:50] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith and the life thereafter.

[00:02:14] Another episode of the Thereafter podcast.

[00:02:18] We're going to be more consistent this season.

[00:02:21] It's wild because it's been, we've been inconsistent and like season four was this meandering season that continued through kind of the break.

[00:02:33] We continued to want to like say things here and there.

[00:02:36] So we never took like a really clean break.

[00:02:38] And now we're starting season five in like for me one of the busiest times of the year.

[00:02:45] So we'll see what we are inconsistency wise, but it's exciting to be back.

[00:02:51] And Megan, you and I like hanging out and recording gives us an excuse to hang out for episodes like this for sure.

[00:02:58] Absolutely.

[00:02:59] And you've been all over the place.

[00:03:00] You caught a couple of shows in Chicago.

[00:03:03] I did.

[00:03:05] Chicago is incredible.

[00:03:07] I'm trying to think there was something else that I was doing that led up to Chicago, but yeah, Chicago is amazing.

[00:03:13] We went, we had bought these.

[00:03:15] Oh, I went out to Kansas City the weekend before that for the get up kids 25 year anniversary tour of something to write home about.

[00:03:25] One of the most iconic emo albums of all time.

[00:03:29] Seeing them get up kids are from Kansas City, Lawrence, Kansas area.

[00:03:34] Nice.

[00:03:34] Just like right where I grew up.

[00:03:35] So like the bottleneck is like the bar in Lawrence on Mastery.

[00:03:40] If you're familiar with KU and that area, it's an iconic spot.

[00:03:45] I saw a ton of shows there growing up.

[00:03:48] So that was incredible going back out to like they were in Denver on Wednesday and I drove out there on Friday to see them in Kansas.

[00:03:58] Because I wanted to see them at the bottleneck.

[00:04:02] It was amazing.

[00:04:04] It was really incredible.

[00:04:05] So I did that two, three weekends ago and then last weekend, depending on when you're listening or how we're thinking about weekends.

[00:04:15] I was in Chicago.

[00:04:17] I had bought tickets several months ago on a whim for Crystal for my wife for like just a gift.

[00:04:25] If you know me, you know, I'm terrible at like gift giving on particular days.

[00:04:32] So like birthdays, Christmases, Bar Mitzvahs, like I'm just bad at like the pressure to like get a gift on a specific time.

[00:04:42] So like Crystal is married to me and knows this about me and hasn't left me yet.

[00:04:48] So sometimes I like I will not get a birthday gift or a Christmas gift because I'm like,

[00:04:53] I'm not going to buy you like some random piece of thing that says,

[00:04:57] I love you this many dollars worth when it's not something special or something.

[00:05:01] And it's just so much social pressure.

[00:05:03] And so like oftentimes she will just get three or four big gifts throughout the year at random times when I see things that I'm like,

[00:05:10] ooh, this is something I want to get you as a gift.

[00:05:13] And it works for me.

[00:05:14] Hopefully it works for her.

[00:05:15] It seems to so far.

[00:05:17] So this was one of those things.

[00:05:18] I saw that Cigarosa, her like favorite band was playing in Chicago because they were just playing a few tour dates throughout the U.S.

[00:05:26] And Denver wasn't on the list.

[00:05:28] And so I bought these tickets.

[00:05:30] It was incredible auditorium theater.

[00:05:33] And then like we saw we kind of planned it to be a long weekend to like kind of just get away and be away for a little while.

[00:05:39] And we saw that Manchester Orchestra was playing the next night and we were going to be there.

[00:05:44] And so we got tickets for that incredible House of Blues Chicago was an incredible place.

[00:05:48] Incredible venue.

[00:05:50] That's where Manchester Orchestra played just very, very meaningful shows both nights and just got to see Chicago.

[00:06:01] I mean, I've never spent time.

[00:06:02] I mean, that's your stomping grounds.

[00:06:04] So I had never spent time down there.

[00:06:06] It was really cool.

[00:06:07] Yeah, I'll always have a bit of nostalgia for Chicago and who knows maybe I'll live there again someday but I lived there for went to college there and lived there for a long time after.

[00:06:17] So good decade of my 20s was in that city.

[00:06:21] I feel like there's so much to it, like just like downtown wise, I felt like we saw like four or five different like distinctly different parts of downtown.

[00:06:36] And from what I've heard like that's not even Chicago.

[00:06:40] Chicago is the neighborhoods.

[00:06:42] There's like all the neighborhoods that are even more the real Chicago and I don't know how many somebody said there's like 30 something neighborhoods that make up Chicago.

[00:06:54] Maybe that was an exaggeration, but we didn't see it.

[00:06:57] I know for sure.

[00:06:57] We just stayed downtown.

[00:07:00] And so like I feel like I could like spend months there and not see everything.

[00:07:05] There's a lot to see and when I went to school, I was on the Northwest side and got to know that area.

[00:07:10] And like I've been to a bunch of Cubs games and so I've been, you know, gotten to know Wrigleyville and you know, if I dated somebody that lived in the South side, I got to know that.

[00:07:19] You know, so just different times in my life, I've spent time in different areas of Chicago.

[00:07:24] So it has been there.

[00:07:28] But there's a lot to see downtown.

[00:07:29] And so if you're, if you're going to get a taste of it, that's a great way to do it.

[00:07:35] And speaking of shows, I just found out today that Joy Lattakin is going to be playing a show on February 14th in Atlanta the night before content morning.

[00:07:45] And I am pumped.

[00:07:47] I know when we did our very first meetup, PDX meetup, there was a page or the lion show that happened right before it and a bunch of us went and that was super fun.

[00:07:56] And so I'm hoping that people that sign up for content morning will also be interested in getting tickets to see her play because she's phenomenal.

[00:08:04] And I think she has a lot of songs that really resonate with folks deconstructing too.

[00:08:09] It's perfect.

[00:08:10] Like it feels meant to be.

[00:08:12] I'm very excited.

[00:08:14] I don't know what size of venue she's playing in, but hopefully it is a large enough one that it does not sell out too fast.

[00:08:22] And we're able to like spread the word and people who are coming to content morning can plan to come out a day early and go to that.

[00:08:31] And people who are going to Joy Lattakin can then come to content warning.

[00:08:36] This is true.

[00:08:37] This is, it's a great, you know, kismet situation there with both those things happening at the same time in Atlanta, a cool city where cool stuff, I'm sure happens all the time.

[00:08:50] Well, I speaking of cool cities, I got to experience the taste of Portland this weekend.

[00:08:55] I had some friends that got together to go to a burlesque horror show, which was pretty phenomenal.

[00:09:02] And I had not.

[00:09:04] God, I don't think I'd been to a burlesque show before and we had a blast.

[00:09:09] And it was just kind of funny because, you know, it was all these different characters, you know, Nymer on Elm Street and Jason and saw and all these things, which I'm not a horror fan, but it was kind of just a parody.

[00:09:23] And so the dancers would come out and be all dressed in costume and slowly the costumes would go away and they were phenomenal dancers.

[00:09:29] And I heard that they had done a previous rendition that was a Star Wars theme.

[00:09:35] And so, and so I guess they just changed it up the themes every year or so.

[00:09:41] And so I felt like it was a very Portland night out.

[00:09:44] That's incredible.

[00:09:46] I love nerdy burlesque.

[00:09:49] Various different themed burlesque.

[00:09:51] There is a very popular Star Wars themed burlesque show that I know has toured the U.S.

[00:09:59] Crystal and I went to the Suicide Girls burlesque show, which is like a traveling burlesque show that has toured, I think, every year for years.

[00:10:10] And they did a lot of like cool Star Wars and various other fandom themed parts of their show.

[00:10:20] And so yeah, burlesque is cool.

[00:10:22] I think people who aren't familiar or who never have experienced it don't really realize how much of a subculture and how...

[00:10:35] Just like how much art history goes into burlesque and combining the dance aspect with the sexy aspect with these fun themes and these fun ideas.

[00:10:51] It's very cool.

[00:10:52] So I'm jealous.

[00:10:53] Yeah, well and especially combining horror with burlesque, it's like, I don't know what kinds of dreams I'm going to have tonight, but it's going to be one extreme or another.

[00:11:04] Amazing.

[00:11:06] Well, let's get into it.

[00:11:08] So Cortland and I were chatting about doing an episode just kind of one of the things that's been a theme in our friendship.

[00:11:15] And as we've talked to other people deconstructing is a lot of flipping scripts when it comes to relationships.

[00:11:22] I know I've been through a divorce, I've talked a little bit about that and I'm also dating someone long distance.

[00:11:29] And so there's a lot of things about even just that that aren't legible to everyone.

[00:11:35] And then Cortland and I have a lot of conversations about polyamory and non-monogamy.

[00:11:39] And that gets into even more flipping scripts.

[00:11:43] And I just saw somebody on threads say that they were just barely getting comfortable talking more publicly about polyamory.

[00:11:53] And I kind of feel like it's this thing where even queer folks sometimes feel like they have to stay closeted when they're polyamorous.

[00:12:02] And so just kind of looking at the legibility and the script flipping that we're doing and whether it's in friendships and whether it's in romantic relationships.

[00:12:13] We just kind of wanted to hit record on the conversation that we've been having about this.

[00:12:18] So I'm not sure, Cortland, you were kind of talking about kind of just where you're at right now and that might be a good place to start and just jump in from there.

[00:12:28] Yeah.

[00:12:29] Yeah.

[00:12:30] I think, I mean, I've been having these conversations on threads a lot.

[00:12:34] I've connected with a lot of people over there about polyamory and about queerness and about language.

[00:12:43] I think that there is to give a preface on some of these conversations.

[00:12:52] There is understandably a lot of feelings around the language we use to talk about relationship,

[00:13:04] the language we use to talk about our sexuality, our gender.

[00:13:11] And there's a lot of evolving language as well.

[00:13:17] And I think that it's just important to note that all of these things are very dynamic and personal and fluid to some extent and also helpful.

[00:13:30] I think that a lot of the pushback that I tend to get is like when we're talking about kind of the legibility as you put it, I think that's such a great term, is like you're trying,

[00:13:46] you know, when we're talking about querying or deconstructing relationship models and compulsory relationship models, whether that be heteronormative or mononormative or monosexual,

[00:14:07] there is a worry or a fear that that deconstructing is going to erase or like get rid of the value that comes from having labels and, you know, identities and words that are meaningful and important to people.

[00:14:28] Right? You see this happening in conversations about non-binary identities and non-binary lesbians.

[00:14:39] And what does the term lesbian mean when we're not talking about people who are women?

[00:14:43] What does the term queer mean versus, you know, what does it mean to be gay?

[00:14:49] You see people talking about bisexual girls and their boyfriends, you know, various different things.

[00:14:56] And it's like, okay, are we talking about needing this language to fit and be consistent and stable and reliable?

[00:15:10] Or are we trying to kind of muddle through it and figure out in a very personal way what these different identities and these different words and these different labels mean to all of us collectively, right, as a community?

[00:15:29] Well, and I want to just jump in here because when we're talking about labels, there's been a lot of chatter about even the term partner, right?

[00:15:38] And there's people and it's almost like, you know, the same people that push back on pronouns are also pushing back on like, I think there was a tweet from a pastor that was like,

[00:15:48] every time I see people say or hear people say the word partner, I just cringe.

[00:15:53] And it's like, there are so many different reasons that people choose that language that they choose to describe their relationships.

[00:16:00] And I know it's important.

[00:16:02] I prefer to use partner because I feel like there's scripts for quote unquote husband and wife that I don't resonate with and that I just don't like or girlfriend and boyfriend.

[00:16:15] They don't describe me.

[00:16:16] And so, you know, I prefer, I'll say boyfriend sometimes, but I prefer to say partner.

[00:16:21] And I know that I'll use that, you know, if I get married again someday, like I'll want to use that terminology versus spouse or husband and wife more often, you know.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:33] Well, and it's like, well, who are these labels for?

[00:16:35] Right.

[00:16:36] Like there is an aspect of that label when you're talking to somebody, it conveys something.

[00:16:43] But also, like I think what we are doing by having some of these conversations is like calling into question what perceptions are automatically assumed when someone uses that language.

[00:16:57] Well, in that part of that chatter and that thread was people were saying, yeah, if somebody says partner, I just I assume they're gay.

[00:17:04] And I'm like, okay, I'm not that worried about that.

[00:17:07] Like I'm queer and I like, I don't need you to know whether like why does it.

[00:17:13] I know who I'm dating.

[00:17:15] Do you need to know what the gender, right, you know, right, right off the bat just from a term?

[00:17:20] Yeah.

[00:17:20] Well, and then you have, I mean, you have older gays, right?

[00:17:23] Like the older gays who I know personally some older gays who felt like a little bit like that was their thing.

[00:17:32] That was their kind of code, right?

[00:17:34] Like that was their way of identifying one another.

[00:17:39] And so like to them, to some extent, maybe they were thrown off by like, oh, these straights, you know, using, you know, or these people in straight relationships using the term partner.

[00:17:50] Exactly.

[00:17:50] And at the time, you know, before 2015, there were a lot of people that didn't have the option of getting married.

[00:17:56] And so a partner better described a long term relationship with somebody that you were committed to and wanting to be with, but not being able to have that marriage certificate because of the laws.

[00:18:08] And so I mean, I think there's been a lot of iterations of that term and as it's evolved over the years too.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:16] And so like there was this, there was this one back and forth this exchange that I had on threads where essentially, you know, somebody who was saying like, well, you know, we need these, I feel, we need these definitions.

[00:18:30] And this was in reference to polyamory and monogamy.

[00:18:36] And kind of I had this like ongoing conversation around the fluidity and the non binary nature of relationship structures in general.

[00:18:43] And they're like, I feel like, you know, we need to have some like, you know, specificity around monogamy and polyamory and like what these things are some rigidity that allows it to keep from being abused.

[00:19:00] Right.

[00:19:00] And I think that there is something to be acknowledged there about people using terminology in a way that ends up being harmful for other people.

[00:19:10] Relationship anarchy, for example, is that term or a self identifier in polyamory or in non monogamy that gets used and oftentimes is like code for like, I don't have to play by the rules.

[00:19:23] I don't have to listen to your care about your feelings.

[00:19:27] I don't have to be accountable to anyone, you know, whatever I identify as relationship anarchist and I don't feel those things right like I like I still have to be accountable.

[00:19:36] I care about your feelings, all those things.

[00:19:38] But I do know how that's been used right and so what we're not we're not talking about terminology being flexible in the sense where it's like, oh, I'm monogamous but monogamous when I said you know like, I mean like I fuck other people right and like bringing that up like six months into a, you know, a

[00:19:58] relationship that you shipped or you sold as monogamous is like, oh yeah.

[00:20:02] Sorry, babe when I said I was monogamous I meant like I do oral with other people, you know, like, you don't get to just like, like down the line, go back and redefine something when you used to your advantage, the assumed understanding of the definition.

[00:20:24] Right.

[00:20:24] I think that that's like really where it to me is important for us to say like when we're using terminology, it's important for the people who were communicating with to be on the same page about what that means.

[00:20:41] And that's what doesn't happen when we assume we're we're we're talking about the same thing.

[00:20:49] Yeah. And, and I think you've you've said this a couple times the relationship agreements and I think that's so important and what I think we're getting at is that those look different for everyone.

[00:21:04] And even within polyamory polyamory doesn't look the same for everybody that is polyamorous and also the relationship agreements in monogamous relationships aren't necessarily the same for everyone.

[00:21:16] I mean, I know you and I have gone on vacation together when we've been in relationships with other people and we're not in a romantic partnership.

[00:21:24] But for some people that might not be something that falls within their relationship agreement, you know, and so thinking through those pieces.

[00:21:32] And that's what I think is so beautiful about the things that you say about non-monogamy.

[00:21:37] And I say that because I also know people that have had that have had tricky relationships that have been polyamorous.

[00:21:45] And so it isn't always work the same for everyone.

[00:21:49] I've seen you and Crystal and different partners that you've had and and I see beautiful communication and relationship agreements and things like that.

[00:21:57] And I think, you know, you can't just take one person's life and just say, OK, this is how it's going to work for everyone because it's unique to every individual.

[00:22:07] Yeah. Yeah. And all that being said, like there is going to be learning and like imperfect relationships no matter what relationship style you choose, right?

[00:22:22] Like this is, you know, again, something that gets lobbed at queer people and has been for a long time.

[00:22:33] This idea that their relationships or the way that they approach their sexuality was less structured or more.

[00:22:46] What's the word?

[00:22:48] Yeah, more less committed is what I'm trying to say.

[00:22:53] But there's promiscuous, right? That there was something more inherently.

[00:22:59] And it's like, well, the reality was like they, you know, queer folks didn't have all of this systemic structure to make their relationship seem as, you know, structurally committed.

[00:23:13] Is it like our queer people inherently more promiscuous? No, right?

[00:23:19] Like there is no factual basis to that.

[00:23:24] But the way queer people had to present in society, you know, like in terms of legibility again to other people, right, gave people reasons to, you know, lob that sort of an accusation.

[00:23:40] So like same with like, you know, you see anytime a gay or lesbian couple or a queer couple gets divorced, people are like, oh my God, see, you wanted marriage and now you're getting divorced.

[00:23:54] And it's like, shut the fuck up.

[00:23:55] Like straight people would be getting divorced at incredibly high rates forever and like let the queers get divorced, you know, like, like let polyamorous people break up or like have those relationships not work out.

[00:24:07] It's going to happen.

[00:24:09] Well, and I think that made me think of a couple of things because it's why no matter what relationship structure I'm in, I feel very comfortable, the most comfortable with my queer friends because my relationships don't always look the same as everybody else's.

[00:24:26] And I feel like then I'm in an environment where all relationships are just people writing their own scripts and I love that.

[00:24:33] And I also think, and I know we talked about wanting to address this a little bit when it comes to relationships ending, whether it's within a monogamous relationship structure, whether you're queer, whether you're polyamorous.

[00:24:47] I do think that not even just in evangelicalism but in society as a whole, we're pretty lacking on tools to end relationships well.

[00:24:58] And I know, I guess maybe not everyone, I shouldn't speak for the collective we, but I will say that as someone who went through a divorce, it took a very long time to be able to say that word out loud, right?

[00:25:12] And to be able to put that on the table.

[00:25:14] And I think that in the same way within evangelicalism that we have conversations about like, hey, when you're not married and you go out and buy condoms, it's like this premeditated sin that you're doing.

[00:25:29] I think that once you get married, people are like, hey, when you're married, if you say the word divorce, it's like this premeditated thing or if you even have thoughts about how divorce could happen.

[00:25:41] It's like you're planning for this big failure when I really think that we could benefit from tools and relationship tools that help end a relationship well.

[00:25:53] I don't know what are your thoughts?

[00:25:55] Yeah, I mean, there is this idea that somehow destigmatizing conversations around these things increases the frequency of their occurrence, right?

[00:26:10] Like, if we say that it's okay to get divorced, everyone's gonna do it.

[00:26:16] It's gotta be bad, right?

[00:26:20] If you say that it's okay to get an abortion, right?

[00:26:24] If we say that we're pro-abortion, everyone's just gonna be getting abortions, right?

[00:26:28] If we say there's no stigma around getting STIs, people are just gonna be raw-doggin' it and sharing herpes with everybody.

[00:26:40] That's not true. No one goes like, oh wait, there's no stigma around herpes, can't wait to get it.

[00:26:48] Well, in same with divorce I would say. As somebody who's been through divorce, nobody is saying, oh, I hope I do get divorced.

[00:26:57] Nobody's entering a marriage with that.

[00:26:59] How exciting!

[00:27:01] I've just been waiting around, just like, shamed about how much I really loved the idea of getting divorced.

[00:27:07] These things happen and these things are not shameful and they're not even bad.

[00:27:15] But, you know, we see the same thing with, like, this idea that queerness or transness is some sort of social contagion, right?

[00:27:25] Like, as soon as we, you know, normalized queerness, now Gen Z, you know, 40% of them identify as somewhere on the LGBT spectrum, right?

[00:27:36] And like, as soon as the kids got access to TikTok, they're all trans.

[00:27:42] Like, even if that was the case or if that were true, that somehow, which it's not, it's proven.

[00:27:49] Data has proven. All the data up until this point says that this is not true.

[00:27:55] But even if it was a, like, if things like being trans were contagious, it's not bad to be trans.

[00:28:05] Exactly.

[00:28:06] And so it would be fine. Even if being gay was contagious, that would be cool.

[00:28:13] It would be okay because there's nothing wrong with it, right?

[00:28:16] Right.

[00:28:16] And so I think that that's where, when we inherently start talking about like wanting to kind of like put this like, I guess this like, this like unnamed pressure stigma against something that we don't want to, I don't know, we don't want to trivialize, right?

[00:28:43] Right. We tend to inherently stigmatize, right? I don't want to trivialize divorce. It's a big important, oftentimes difficult and life-altering event.

[00:28:59] Right.

[00:29:00] It's not trivial. But it's not bad.

[00:29:06] Well, and I'll say this too, like in the context of having relationship agreements, I think it's important for people to know what their deal breakers are.

[00:29:15] And those deal breakers are relationship enders, right? And so somebody put it in the context, I think there had been a thread that they had seen, but one of my friends when I was kind of going through this, put it in the context of like, if you are not able to say the words divorce,

[00:29:32] if you're never able to put that on the table, it's like you're in a job that you can't quit no matter what the burdens put on you and no matter how much you have to work overtime or no matter, you know, you have to at some point have some kind of negotiating ability within that setting.

[00:29:51] And so to be able to say, hey, and the way that I phrased it when I was kind of going through it and I won't get into all of it, but I kind of phrased it as having divorce ideation.

[00:30:01] I was like, this has been on my mind. This, I need to have this conversation. These are the reasons why.

[00:30:06] And I think that if you're not able to say that, if you're not able to, you know, bring those in while you're navigating relationship agreements and communication, then it is like you're in a job you can't quit.

[00:30:17] And so it's like, you're basically, it's kind of like deconstructing and saying there's only one right way. It's the way that you still have Jesus at the end.

[00:30:26] It's like, okay, let's navigate these relationship agreements only if at the end of the day we're still together at all costs.

[00:30:33] And to me, I couldn't say at all costs. There were costs that were too high for me.

[00:30:38] And so I think having those conversations and having that ability, because I know with my current partner, we talk all the time about like, you know, what it would look like to end our relationship or the things that would be deal breakers are kind of navigating, you know, how to manage conflict and things like that.

[00:30:56] And I think that it feels really healthy and free to be able to have those conversations and not have to hold back and think to yourself, oh, this might be a deal breaker, but I can't say that out loud because we're not allowed to even consider deal breakers at some point, you know.

[00:31:10] Mm hmm. And does longevity or time in relationship directly equate to quality value or success of the relationship, right?

[00:31:25] Exactly.

[00:31:26] You know, people, there was a thread recently that I saw a few days ago is like, why do our relationships not last the way our grandparents did?

[00:31:35] And it's like, oh, because women aren't property anymore.

[00:31:38] Yeah.

[00:31:38] Right?

[00:31:39] Because women can have a bank account, right?

[00:31:42] Well, and...

[00:31:42] Because, you know, go ahead.

[00:31:45] Oh, I was just going to say, I remember seeing that and I said because people changed and then somebody else said, or they don't change.

[00:31:51] And I was like, yep, very true.

[00:31:54] So there were a lot of great answers to that.

[00:31:56] And so it's like, okay, like, like it's not length of time, right?

[00:32:01] Like I was hanging out with my friend in Chicago when we were out there, Jess, shout out, Keith and Queen.

[00:32:10] She's like in the process of getting her master's in a two year master's program, right?

[00:32:14] My friend Jason, who, you know, I don't think he's a listener of the podcast, but Jason, if you are, shout out to you.

[00:32:21] He spent, I think like almost 10 years, it was like nine and a half years in community college and never got an associates.

[00:32:28] Like he just loved like learning about lots of different stuff and like really liked school.

[00:32:34] And we like joked with him all the time about like him spending a decade at community college and never getting any sort of degree because he kept like changing what he was studying.

[00:32:43] And he was always like a couple of credits here.

[00:32:45] Like, so like two years you're getting a master's that you wouldn't go to Jason and be like, well, he spent nine years at college.

[00:32:53] So like clearly his education is like more valuable than this master's degree over here that only took two years.

[00:33:00] No, we would go like clearly the master's degree is a different credential.

[00:33:04] And in many ways a more valuable credential than Jason's beautiful eight years of beandering around community college.

[00:33:14] Those are different things and we're not going to equate value over one because of time, right?

[00:33:22] You spend 50 years in a terrible marriage.

[00:33:24] You spend eight years in a really beautiful healthy marriage that ends maybe mutually.

[00:33:32] You can't go, oh well sorry these guys did 50 years.

[00:33:36] So clearly this is the one that you know that that you know is valuable or that matters or was successful.

[00:33:45] Yeah, and I love that analogy because it does paint that picture and I would I would like to kind of veer into because you were talking a little bit about relationships.

[00:33:54] Anarchy and we've been talking about relationship agreements, but I think one thing that I kind of if if we could change the world and flip every script.

[00:34:04] What would be nice is to not have to have the binary of monogamy and non monogamy and you've talked about this before and I would love to hear you kind of talk a little bit more.

[00:34:14] But just because every relationship structure can just be unique to them and you know I'm I'm monogamous but I have my own relationship agreements and you're not monogamous

[00:34:23] and you have yours but like does it have to be categorized in that way or can everybody just have a relationship and whatever they do and whatever that looks like for them as long as it's ethical and as long as you know consensual and all of those safe all those pieces then that can be how they go about their relationships.

[00:34:42] Yeah, I think you know again this comes back to like how committed we are to like talk about our relationships right like how much we are committed to like doing that work.

[00:35:01] That allows us to get rid of some of the short hand that we get from the binary right like, like there is some value to the short hand of saying hey all the girls go over here and all the guys go over here.

[00:35:18] Right and as we start to go like oh wait there's more than just those two right at we lose some efficiency.

[00:35:30] In the value in the in the in the expedience of being able to say hey girls over here and guys over here.

[00:35:38] Now we have to go like okay how do we talk about how we're going to split split everybody up, you know, and you see this even in, you know, queer communities where people are like, you know, fems over here and masks over here and you're like you're just creating another binary that just is not called, you know, are you them non binary or you mask

[00:35:59] non binary it's like were you assigned male at birth or you assigned female at birth non binary it's like listen I know you really really want to like get some sort of a binary here but we're trying to get rid of that and that's a process.

[00:36:13] That's why the letters of LGBTQ are keep expanding right.

[00:36:16] Yeah, like it is a process to to to get to that level of removing the binary and so like I just wanted to name that I got that there's a commitment to a lot more communication a lot more language a lot more exploration in our relationships as we begin to like get rid of the

[00:36:38] the short hand of monogamy and non monogamy, but the beauty of it is we start to like really talk about what the intent behind those short hands are for so many different people right.

[00:36:56] And as we talk about things like for many people it's exclusivity right there's this exclusivity in monogamy that is inherently compulsory because it inherently values sexual and romantic relationships as what we are being exclusive about.

[00:37:18] And I think what for me begins to break that down is getting to learn more about my ace and a romantic friends right because as I learned about people who identify as some sort of queer ace a romantic identity.

[00:37:40] If I have linch pinned the entire binary about relationship structure on exclusivity of sex and romance.

[00:37:53] Then I am essentially erasing the experience of the valued intimacy of an ace a romantic person right and I'm saying like oh since you are ace and a romantic, you inherently don't have value at the center point of where we define what side of relationship

[00:38:19] structure you're on and what type of exclusivity we're talking about and so inherently what we're talking about is we're talking about exclusivity when it comes to intimacy and we realize the more we talk about intimacy that physical intimacy is a really

[00:38:37] broad spectrum sexual intimacy is a really broad spectrum.

[00:38:43] Romantic intimacy is a really broad spectrum and what is going to feel deeply romantic to one person may feel really platonic to another.

[00:38:55] And what's going to feel very deeply and inherently sexual to one person may feel very non sexual to another person kissing might be like and we can say oh of course there's cultural norms kissing is sexual.

[00:39:09] No, it's not like like somewhere along the way we decided that we were all going to agree that it is but like it is it does not have to be right it does not like like you might kiss your friends like we might kiss your friends.

[00:39:25] You might like at some point be in a world where that is an acceptable reality right.

[00:39:34] Parts of Europe are there baby you know like you know where where you know a kiss on the cheek or a kiss on the face or even a kiss on the mouth is not seen as something that's not just friendly.

[00:39:48] And also requires consent right and so like something like a hug where we were always told if it's non sexual.

[00:40:00] I mean as an air quotes it we didn't talk about consent right and again this is where the shorthands fail us because we start to categorize something like a hug or a side hug as being a inherently non sexual physical form of physical touch.

[00:40:15] And therefore something that we don't have consent conversations about.

[00:40:21] Because consent was always something that really gets applied to sexual touch right and so and so again I'm kind of like rambling in circles but the idea is that like I do understand why breaking down these binaries leaves a lot of work to be done.

[00:40:44] Especially on the individual relationship basis but like there is so much value in doing that work we got so much out of doing that work.

[00:40:54] Absolutely and I think it's part of why when we had content warning I didn't want breakout sessions I didn't want separate places that people went to kind of choose which ones they would go to because to me it was important that everyone there like

[00:41:12] I don't want it to become a place where you know trans folks are like I'm going to listen to the trans speakers or you know polyamorous folks are like I'm going to listen to the polyamorous speakers like I want all people to listen to trans people.

[00:41:28] I want all people to listen to polyamorous people.

[00:41:31] I want and I think that like there's so much to be learned from all of the different ways that people are living life and in relationship with each other and flipping those scripts that I think then all of this rhetoric that we're seeing online and on social media about you know the fear mongering around certain people or certain

[00:41:53] relationships structures and I would say even within progressive communities there's people that you know we've seen tweets out like just so you know becoming non monogamous doesn't have to be the last step to deconstructing and it's like even progressive people are starting to be like whoa you

[00:42:13] know polyamory is too far for me or something like that and I and I just think having these conversations again helps make different unique relationship structures more more legible to people but then it also kind of pushes back on the fact that it has to be legible at all.

[00:42:31] Yeah, I mean and you and you're always gonna you have the LGBT without the T weirdos right like you have these people who want to limit what is, you know,

[00:42:43] what these things are and again like that's that's where like, like broadly limiting something to a very rigid definition does not increase its value does not make it more worth defending right like and we've talked about this with like queer identifiers right like for men.

[00:43:10] You show any physical intimacy to another man and you're automatically gay you're not you skip bisexual go straight to gay right.

[00:43:20] If you're a gay man who shows any sort of sexual attraction to a woman, you're all of a sudden cured you're straight again.

[00:43:29] You're, you know, like, like we just skip over any in between section and we force people to accept and identify or one way or the other.

[00:43:42] Rather than saying like it's okay for two people to look to somebody else identical and identify as two different things.

[00:43:51] You may look at me and my friend over here and say you guys look the same present the same act as the same talk the same they identified as non binary and pansexual, and I identify as cisgendered and bisexual.

[00:44:08] And you go well you guys look the same.

[00:44:11] And that's because my identifiers are mine to pick and you can go fuck off.

[00:44:18] Like, you know, like, like, like I don't need it to be palatable.

[00:44:23] Like, like, if you want to make out with dudes and identify as straight.

[00:44:28] I think that's wonderful.

[00:44:29] You're among like great company of most girls who went to college got drunk a couple times like you've, you've, you know, you've made out with girls and you identify as straight.

[00:44:41] I know lots of girls who have made out with girls and identify as straight.

[00:44:46] And it in for girls, culturally, socially that was seen as something you were allowed to do.

[00:44:53] And now I have friends like when I came out as bi that were like, oh yeah, like I think I'm probably bi too.

[00:45:01] And, you know, friends that are married in, you know, straight passing relationships and they're like, yeah, I think I am too.

[00:45:09] And for me, it was very important to come out and have that known.

[00:45:15] And it isn't the important for everybody in the same way.

[00:45:18] And that's fine.

[00:45:18] And that's a very, very valid.

[00:45:20] Yeah.

[00:45:21] And again, that goes the other way, right?

[00:45:24] Like if a guy wants to make out with other guys and identify as bi, we shouldn't be like, yeah, but have you had penetrative sex with a man?

[00:45:33] Like, whoa, you're a weirdo.

[00:45:35] What are you doing?

[00:45:35] Why are we trying to like make some sort of hard line here in terms of like where you get to be queer?

[00:45:46] You know, if you feel an identity works for you, embrace it, use it and explain it.

[00:45:57] Talk to other people about it.

[00:45:58] Talk to people about what it means.

[00:46:00] I'm all the time talking about what my bisexuality and what my non-monogamy and what like aspects of, you know, for a long time I used ace and kind of gray ace.

[00:46:11] And, you know, like my relationship with my sexuality, like in terms of my sexual attraction and desire for sex was, I was unsure of.

[00:46:20] And so I'm just trying on different labels.

[00:46:23] And like, I don't really use those labels anymore.

[00:46:25] And I'm coming up with other ways to explain it.

[00:46:28] But like, if the label is helpful, use it and if it stops being helpful, there is something underneath it, right?

[00:46:35] There's something underneath all of our relationships.

[00:46:38] And this is where I wanted to ask you, like coming out of relationship and moving into exploring new relationships after going through your divorce,

[00:46:50] how did your approach to relationship change from like a mindset perspective?

[00:47:00] Yeah, that's a good question.

[00:47:02] And I think, well, my current relationship started pretty quickly after my divorce.

[00:47:08] And I think I was very just hyper focused on wanting to make sure that it, I always kind of knew what it was and where it was at the time.

[00:47:18] Because I was like, is this a rebound or is this like a long term relationship?

[00:47:22] And I had learned a lot in our conversations and in conversations with other people about like short term or new relationship.

[00:47:30] I was going to say short term relationship energy.

[00:47:32] That's new relationship energy.

[00:47:35] I've learned about short term relationship energy too though.

[00:47:38] I've been there.

[00:47:40] No shame.

[00:47:41] No shame.

[00:47:41] Long term relationship energy.

[00:47:43] And so I, to me, I feel like when I approach relationships, I like to kind of know when those shifts are happening and when the cadence and the rhythm of how you're connecting is happening.

[00:47:54] But also I'm in a long distance relationship.

[00:47:57] And so I live in Portland.

[00:47:59] My partner lives in Columbus, Ohio.

[00:48:01] And I think some people look at that and when we say that they're like, they just kind of want to throw their hands up in the air and be like, why?

[00:48:09] Why are you even dating?

[00:48:10] You know?

[00:48:11] And for us, it works.

[00:48:14] And we have kids in the cities that we live in and we will have kids in those cities for a very long time.

[00:48:19] And so there's not like an immediate plan for one of us to move to the other city.

[00:48:24] And we see each other a couple times a month.

[00:48:27] We have kind of a structure and sometimes my work trips overlay with that.

[00:48:32] And sometimes we meet up in new cities and we're having a blast kind of dating across America.

[00:48:37] Like we've been, we've hung out in Denver and Nashville and Vegas and different cities.

[00:48:43] And so for some people that wouldn't work.

[00:48:47] You see people that are in the military that have those kinds of relationships long distance for a very long time.

[00:48:54] You know, you see, that's the thing for me because I'm like, you know what?

[00:48:58] I'm no longer going to kind of adhere to what other people think should quote unquote work or not work.

[00:49:06] And I'm just going to do what works for me because on the flip side, I had a friend recently had a couple glasses of wine and got pretty bold

[00:49:15] and was like, I don't know if I'm allowed to ask you this.

[00:49:17] But can I ask you like you have time for yourself and then time with your partner and then time where you're working and then time with your kids.

[00:49:29] And it's all in these separate pieces.

[00:49:31] And she's like, is it kind of amazing?

[00:49:33] And I was like, yes, for like it actually is kind of amazing.

[00:49:37] And on the flip side, I've had people point out like you can say that though because you have a good co parent that you trust when your kids are with that person.

[00:49:47] And that's very, very true too, because not everybody that goes through a divorce has a co parent that they can rely on and that they know their kids are safe and parented well.

[00:49:58] And when they're there.

[00:49:59] And so like there's there's aspects of that that I've given a lot of thought to, but I don't approach relationships casually.

[00:50:07] Some people do and that's great.

[00:50:08] But I have a lot of intention with the way that I approach relationships.

[00:50:12] And I love the way you're talking about the long distance aspects of your relationship too, because I think there's something to be said about like, like not inherently talking about it in relation to a close distance relationship, whatever, whatever the opposite of a long distance relationship is right.

[00:50:33] Like, like a, you know, in the same way that like we don't need to talk about queerness in relation to straightness or polyamory in relationship to monogamy.

[00:50:45] Right.

[00:50:46] And that that a lot of people would be like, oh well, like we understand long distance because you can't be together.

[00:50:55] Right.

[00:50:56] And so you're like held apart by whatever reason was an external circumstance happened before you and it's not what you ultimately want and you have to deal with this inconvenience and whatever right.

[00:51:08] People think about queerness this way, right?

[00:51:10] Like you're unfortunately attracted to the same gender and so like you unfortunately have to, you know, I mean this is the way that like same sex attracted people right which is what we used to talk about when we were inside.

[00:51:21] He's using air quotes for same.

[00:51:22] I'm using air quotes.

[00:51:25] When we used to talk about what was it side B or side A, I always forget what fucking side letter we talked about but like, like we would talk about these dynamics as like inconveniences and same with polyamory right.

[00:51:37] It's like, well if you can't be with one person, I guess, you know, you can be polyamorous and like, like deal with that.

[00:51:43] But like what if, you know, you were in a close distance relationship again right at the opposite of a long distance and you were like hey for the enrichment as our relationship grows, we're actually going to like move into different houses or we're going to move to different cities.

[00:52:01] Like and that's actually like, like an evolution in the intimacy of your relationship that allows you to experience relationship in a new and maybe even more intimate way right.

[00:52:11] And not thinking about it in as a, well ultimately everyone's trying to like live together.

[00:52:19] Ultimately everyone's trying to replicate the exact dynamics of a hetero relationship.

[00:52:26] Like who's the man?

[00:52:27] What is it?

[00:52:27] The woman escalator.

[00:52:29] Yeah, everyone's just trying to go up the escalator.

[00:52:32] Everyone's trying to again like replicate right like people in gay relationships all the time.

[00:52:37] Well, who's the man and who's the woman?

[00:52:38] Who's the husband and who's the wife?

[00:52:40] Go fuck yourself.

[00:52:40] I hate that.

[00:52:41] I don't like it.

[00:52:42] Don't talk about it.

[00:52:44] We're not trying to be a straight couple.

[00:52:46] We're not trying to be a monogamous couple.

[00:52:48] We're not trying to not be long distance, whatever it might be.

[00:52:52] We are doing relationship the way it feels the best to us in this moment, the way it serves all of the people involved in the relationship and it is not sacrificing something like you know to the extent where you talk about like dating across America.

[00:53:10] And getting to experience these places like you're getting advantages in your relationship that like I know couples have been married 10 years who have not gotten to do the things that you've gotten to do in your current relationship.

[00:53:23] Yeah, and I'll say too I think it's important to talk about these things because like I know people that are in commuter marriages where they're married and live in different cities and and it works for them and their relationships and those folks that have shared that part of their lives with me have helped me understand.

[00:53:40] The beauty and the benefits of long distance relationships because I do think you know ultimately maybe someday we would you know move to one of the cities or the other but but right now there's so much that we gain from you know having really intentional

[00:53:56] FaceTime conversations and and having really intentional communication about our feelings because we kind of have to because it you know we're not necessarily reading cues from being in the same room with each other all the time or.

[00:54:09] Being really intentional about how we spend the time that we do have in person together and intentional about you know how our kids are able to interact and so I like I just think there's a lot of intentionality that I wouldn't have had otherwise if it was somebody that lived in my same town or even in my same area.

[00:54:29] There's even aspects of like intimacy that you don't and this is coming from like my experience in polyamory and exploring like different like dynamics of relationship like as somebody who like met my spouse.

[00:54:45] Like as basically a child and like we you know got married as basically children right and like lived together like before we even like we were like living in a house together when we started dating etc etc right like like like before smartphones by the way because you know.

[00:55:07] Like we never had a sexting relationship right and so like like like what am I going to do like take a dick pick from the bathroom like send it to the living room like like there was just never an aspect of our relationship right and so like as we're exploring other you know dynamics and other things like you're like oh man this is this form of intimacy and.

[00:55:29] We actually like brought that in and experimented with that in our relationship as spurred on by getting to experience other long distance connections and that sort of thing internet connections and whatever because it's like oh this is a whole piece of.

[00:55:46] Fun sexuality flirtation like whatever that like we never ever would have experienced.

[00:55:53] Well and I like I think sometimes it can be easier to communicate about your sexual relationship in a texting setting or like you know going back and forth and there might be like.

[00:56:06] I think it makes it easier to do things like what if we tried this this weekend you know where like I think that's not always something that's a comfortable conversation to have in person but then being able to be open and vulnerable leads to the door opening to having those conversations.

[00:56:23] You know and so whatever works maybe some people do feel really comfortable but if for folks coming out of purity culture that can be tricky that can be really really hard and so to be able to say.

[00:56:36] You know have that conversation and have some of those conversations in in text or in DMs or however you know I think that can help.

[00:56:44] Yeah well and we've talked about it before with like co-parenting schedules like I everyone not yet divorced.

[00:56:52] I love saying it that way everyone not yet divorced should like make a co-parenting calendar like and like talk about talk about co-parenting and parenting schedules like you were divorced for a second right like because like we don't talk about it.

[00:57:08] But oftentimes when we are co-parenting as a non divorced couple it's just all of this assumption it's all of this like like presumed responsibility you know and if more couples talked about co-parenting like divorced couples do before they got divorced they may not get divorced right.

[00:57:31] Like not saying that that is the cause but like we should be having these conversations that we essentially excuse ourselves from having because there's assumption about the way our relationship is supposed to be set up.

[00:57:47] Well and I think that leads into the scripts that I mentioned earlier about like husband or wife scripts because I think you know my therapist calls it the evangelical mom voice that I have in my in my head that I constantly feel like judges me and it's not even it's I'm

[00:58:03] not even saying that that's like my own mom I'm just saying it's an evangelical mom of like what a mom should be and so you know people here that I travel for work that for a woman isn't something that people here as often I think if I was a dude.

[00:58:19] A lot more people be like oh that makes sense you travel for work no big deal and I get a lot more questions about like how how is that with your kids like are your kids okay.

[00:58:28] Are you abandoning your family Megan.

[00:58:29] Yeah like I mean more than and even before I was divorced I would get that like if I was traveling for the podcast I get questions like what is you know what do people think about that and it's like my ex traveled for work as well and people didn't ask him those same questions and so I do

[00:58:48] think that it especially for women in this could be the case for men I just am speaking from my own experience even when I was away or even when I had something you know like on a Thursday night that I you know I would still feel this angst of like.

[00:59:03] Oh I didn't make dinner or I didn't you know pack the kids lunches or I didn't do this kind of typical mom thing and I should have been doing that and it's I don't have that now you know and so I think even in it I didn't need to get divorced to find that

[00:59:21] I you know I was starting to have those conversations as well while I was still married but even within that I think having conversations about like when you need a night away it's truly a night away where you're not still kind of the default parent or the defaults responsible person

[00:59:39] you're still able to have those those breaks and that true rest because you hear of so many moms that you know have covid and are kind of parenting from their beds you know and and that shouldn't be the case and so and whether and I speak for women I know that's happened to

[01:00:05] those conversations could to go a long way.

[01:00:08] Yeah, I mean it makes me think of this video that Heather Benji had on Instagram is a real about and he was addressing specifically this like racialized racialized conversation around fatherlessness and like in black America and like he said like like like you didn't have to be in a single parent home to be fatherless like you know he was like he was

[01:00:35] like a real who I knew who had dads at home were fatherless you know did not have an actual father in their life right did not have a person invested in actually being a dad and actually being a parent and so it's like the the the parent who's traveling for work who's like

[01:00:57] texting and tuned in and like actually asking their kids convert you know questions about their day and having conversations and and like to in many ways probably connecting with their kid in ways that like makes sense to them in terms of a messenger app or a text or a FaceTime call

[01:01:16] is maybe more connected than the parent like sitting at dinner everyone silently on their phone or watching TV you know or whatever right and so like this assumption right again that like this structure this visual is inherently better closer more you know productive more profitable

[01:01:39] more valuable than the other is is just inherently false and we just prove it as we begin actually unpacking and talking about what it means to be connected what it means to be intimate what it means to have fidelity in our relationships what it means to have you know honesty

[01:01:58] and communication what it means to betray or to cheat what it means to you know abandon right all of these things have these very obvious visual representations and then all of these ones that happen under the radar.

[01:02:18] Absolutely and I think and this is a good place to kind of wind things down but I think ultimately it comes down to like my therapist even in very recently I had a conversation and and she was like what would it feel like just to just live your life and be you and be who you are

[01:02:35] and not feel like you had to justify explain validate to anyone and and I think that's what I'm trying to do I'm trying to get there right I think it's hard because our own my own brain I know goes to war with me for those things and I I imagine conversations people are having when I'm gone and not there

[01:02:54] you know and I don't need to do that anymore and live in that space I can just live my life and I don't know what do you have any final thoughts about all of this before we wrap up.

[01:03:02] Yeah, no I think that's a great thought to finish on to be honest I think that that narrative countering that narrative in your head is is a big first step for having more and more of these conversations and it's an ongoing conversation right like this is stuff that you and I and everyone doing this work is like constantly reassessing

[01:03:31] and talking about and coming up with new language around coming up with new ways to think about these things or talk about these things.

[01:03:41] It's not coming up with a new fixed model that's correct it's constantly evolving and leaning into that constant evolution.

[01:03:51] Yeah.

[01:03:53] Well this has been a good chat.

[01:03:55] This is great.

[01:03:57] I hopefully I didn't ramble too much but I love I love talking about this stuff and especially with you I feel we've just been doing that for so long it feels natural to just go back and forth and talk to you about it.

[01:04:10] I'm going to change the word ramble to the word wander because I feel like we wander through these conversations and it's kind of like going on a walk together and I don't think there's I think rambling has some connotations with it and that I don't like and

[01:04:24] we wondered well together.

[01:04:27] Real time language reassessing and changing the way we talk about it.

[01:04:32] I love it.

[01:04:33] I love it putting it to practice.

[01:04:36] Yeah, Megan you want to I mean remind people where people can find us connect with us you and we're going to put it I think at the beginning of the intro but content warning event dot com where they can go and sign up for the event obviously.

[01:04:52] Yeah come join us in February hang out but you can find me at the pursuing life you can find on all the places you can find the podcast at there after pod on Twitter and there after podcast on Instagram.

[01:05:04] We have a patreon so check that out if you want to support support the show we have a discord community and that is at patreon dot com slash thereafter.

[01:05:17] They're after Poland where can people find you.

[01:05:20] Yeah I'm Portland coffee all the places.

[01:05:23] I'm the only one so if you find a courtland coffee it's me.

[01:05:30] And you can find me everywhere threads is where I've been hanging out the most lately and yeah coming out with us at content warning it's going to be a good time.

[01:05:41] So go check that out and get in on the early birth pricing or if you're listening to this a little later.

[01:05:48] You just get in to join us it's going to be worth the time I really hope that if at all possible you can be there make it a point to be with us until next time until then.