108 - Blake Chastain | Exvangelical and Beyond

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast.

[00:00:04] Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:30] If you're not familiar with content warning, this is a unique event with more than 20 collaborators

[00:00:35] who are podcastors, authors, therapists, speakers and creators that want to reinvigorate the conversation happening

[00:00:43] around sex, in sexuality, and faith deconstruction spaces.

[00:00:47] We'll have panel discussions, facilitated conversations, and even a live stream option for those who can't make it in person.

[00:00:54] Our hope is to make us an annual gathering in various locations as we continue striving to build

[00:00:59] inclusive community.

[00:01:01] Early bird tickets are on sale now through October 31st.

[00:01:05] We really hope to see you there.

[00:01:09] All right.

[00:01:11] Welcome to the Thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:19] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:01:25] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a better wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.

[00:01:32] We've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:01:35] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith,

[00:01:39] who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:01:44] Come along as we explore the all-too-often uncharted experience of evangelicalism evolving faith in the life of our aftering.

[00:02:06] We're back.

[00:02:08] We're back.

[00:02:09] Welcome to another episode.

[00:02:12] Season 4? Is that what is that? A R&D's in 4?

[00:02:15] I guess so.

[00:02:16] That's, that is, I only made it to like, at 10th grade level math, but I think we're at 4 now.

[00:02:25] I think you learned how to count for in 10th grade.

[00:02:28] At the time you're in 10th grade.

[00:02:29] Is it 10th grade? Okay cool.

[00:02:30] I was only at like half the classes.

[00:02:33] Yeah, it's season 4. We're excited to be back.

[00:02:35] Season 3 was a little meandering.

[00:02:38] We were a little, a little often, often on, so it's exciting to be back in the groove.

[00:02:45] I take full credit. My schedule was all over the place.

[00:02:48] So hey, you don't get full credit.

[00:02:49] I'm taking some credit.

[00:02:51] Look at this. Are you in about who threw us off more?

[00:02:55] I love this. Great dynamic.

[00:02:58] Yeah, it's September.

[00:03:00] And honestly, I love that fall is in the air.

[00:03:04] The weather's getting a little crisp.

[00:03:06] Not as much wildfire in the air where I'm at.

[00:03:09] I don't know how done for his lately.

[00:03:11] Not too bad.

[00:03:12] No, what's new, correlant?

[00:03:14] You know, not too much.

[00:03:17] I mean, we are getting things together for season 4.

[00:03:22] We're getting stuff together for content warning,

[00:03:24] which we're really excited about.

[00:03:27] Let's talk about content warning.

[00:03:28] Let's talk about it.

[00:03:30] Yeah, we have a we are already selling tickets for our second annual content warning.

[00:03:36] We were just doing an Instagram live that was super fun.

[00:03:39] And our website is up and running and updated content warning event.com.

[00:03:46] And what else? What do you want? What do you want to say about it?

[00:03:49] Yeah, it's going to be an Atlanta February president stay weekend,

[00:03:53] 25, you know, go check out that Instagram live.

[00:03:59] In fact, I don't know, maybe we can pin it or we can link to it in the link tree or something like in all of our bios.

[00:04:06] Because I think that that was a really great little summary of kind of the thought behind and what our intentions are for organizing it.

[00:04:20] And we get people that are asking like, okay, what?

[00:04:23] You know, if you didn't tune in last year, you didn't come check it out.

[00:04:27] Like what is it like? What, you know, a lot of people kind of just assume it's a conference.

[00:04:34] Like they're used to conferences being, but we have a bit of a different span in terms of like really making it more about conversation and about the whole of the group of people who come out and participate.

[00:04:46] And last about like, you know, speakers, you know, getting up and presenting pointed information.

[00:04:54] It's definitely much more conversational.

[00:04:57] Yeah, one of the things, and if you do listen to that Instagram live, I apologize profusely because it took me like a minute or two to bring court land up.

[00:05:05] So if you can jump ahead, yeah, it's the beauty of those things.

[00:05:09] But one of the things I really liked is how you talked about the collaborators more as hosts of the conversation.

[00:05:15] And just, I mean, it goes back to that analogy that I've always said of being the deconstruction like bartender or verista who just kind of turns on the lights and opens the doors and hopes, you know, to provide a space where people can come and have those conversations.

[00:05:29] And I think what's nice as we've been talking about topics is like we covered a lot of things last year and I think we're able to dive a little bit deeper.

[00:05:38] Still cover similar topics, but just get in, you know, a little bit deeper maybe into family relationship dynamics or maybe some more nuanced aspects of purity culture that we weren't able to touch on the first time around.

[00:05:52] So I'm excited to see how that develops and if you're listening and you either came or are coming or just kind of want to have input and you have thoughts about topics.

[00:06:01] Please shoot us a DM or reach out and that's helps shape our event too.

[00:06:06] Yeah, like we want a Tendi involvement in, you know, what we talked about on that video like the collaborators are really organized as planners were putting in a lot of the work on finding the venues setting things up getting stuff planned creating, you know, some of the structure for the conversations.

[00:06:25] It's not like, hey, you know, these people are coming in day off and like, you know, just getting put on stage.

[00:06:32] That's that that's not what it's like and attendees we want attendees to like be actively involved in having the conversation so it's not like, oh, if I'm not going to get on stage.

[00:06:44] I'm not going to have something to say or an opportunity to kind of like add two things.

[00:06:51] That is the point of attending that also being said some people are like, oh man I'm not going to be put on a spot you can't just come and hang out.

[00:07:00] Yeah, that is okay too to come and just just hang out just listen.

[00:07:06] You know, Tim from do the jokals last year that was what he did I can just came and hung out he didn't really say anything.

[00:07:14] Yeah, out loud and that was awesome to just have him there just like absorbing and just listening to all the different other voices that were going on and then like just Garcia who is a collaborator this year they were there.

[00:07:28] And just as an attendee and added so much to the conversation and so much value to perspectives that we didn't have among the cloud bridge at the time and that's why you know they're.

[00:07:41] A part of helping to organize this year so we encourage you to come and and take part and get involved and help us even plan out some of what it's going to look like because who attends is how it gets shaped and and what it ends up looking like ultimately.

[00:08:01] Absolutely, so yeah check out that content warning event dot com.

[00:08:05] Megan tell everyone about your latest project because this is where I get to be a fan and and you get to I just get to hype it up.

[00:08:17] And not feel like I have to be involved in it at all you got something new that you've been cooking up.

[00:08:23] Yeah, I have a little um you know we have an open podcast relationship I have a.

[00:08:30] So podcast non monogamous non non host dog.

[00:08:35] I guess something like that, but yeah, I started a podcast with Justin gentry for those of you who don't know we recently publicly shared that we have been dating for a bit and he lives in Columbus, Ohio and I live in Portland and that's.

[00:08:51] And we have a lot of fun map puzzle of our lives that we work out.

[00:08:57] But also we both love science fiction and so we created this podcast called identity crisis and it is really just kind of looking at deconstruction themes in science fiction and fantasy and speculative fiction and it's been not only a ton of fun, but I also have maybe got in a little too deep into the science fiction world because now I'm like suddenly watching a lot of star track.

[00:09:21] And reading a lot more science fiction and have like four shows going at once and watching a lot of movies that I wasn't watching before, but it is a blast and and I would say to Portland and I were just talking about this.

[00:09:35] It's a little bit lighter than some of the other deconstruction content that I think is out there.

[00:09:41] It's a little bit more like hey we're fans of this and but we also like resonate with us in our own lives and journeys and the way that a lot of other media resonates with us.

[00:09:51] And so it's kind of fun to just be able we we were having a lot of those conversations privately and so it's fun to have those conversations on Mike and.

[00:10:00] And also have guests that are huge fans of different shows what are you going to come on and talk about Portland.

[00:10:06] I, you know, I have no idea.

[00:10:08] I am I am I have huge nerd in posture syndrome because I grew up with a brother who my brother host to the pot or host to the podcast editor for the podcast here.

[00:10:23] He'll get to hear this this first but like he was the kind of kid who could like sit down and read through the entire Lord of the Rings in like a weekend like the whole like series like he that consumed fantasy books and new way more about every piece of nerd lore than I ever could and I always really struggled with reading I always really like.

[00:10:49] Struggled with just the attention span and the imagination to get into some of that stuff, but I always wanted to be I was like and so I would like listen to him talk about you know all of these different fantasy series and characters and movies and I grew up like watching him play video games for instance.

[00:11:11] And I personally was always not very good at video games like I was just like not very good at them and so like I loved watching him play and then once we grew up and weren't you know living together.

[00:11:24] And around each other all the time like I kind of got out of a lot of that stuff and it's been my kiddo like.

[00:11:40] fantasy movies and cartoons and some of this stuff so like I'm just getting back into some of the nerdery.

[00:11:50] And that sort of thing so a huge imposter syndrome so I have no idea but I love I love listening I loved the first episode and I obviously since I have an inside scoop I know what's coming up and I'm really excited about some of the episodes you guys are going to be putting out over the next few weeks.

[00:12:08] Awesome well thanks for being such a great support and also Cody edits side energy crisis and all of that backstory just made me realize why he did such a phenomenal job with our intro and if you.

[00:12:22] Even if you don't even listen to the whole show you have to just listen to the intro because I said today I listen to it like it does in times when after he's done it to to us because I'm so good.

[00:12:34] Yeah we're I'm excited about the interview today before we get into that we did I did want to talk about.

[00:12:41] We're not really doing a Twitter bit so are a content based segment but you and I are both using threads more and so I wanted to give a plug for threads and to come follow and interact with us over there especially if you were kind of part of the Twitter community that we found and.

[00:12:59] I made you know created or co-created with all of you guys because Twitter has been just really.

[00:13:07] Dad like my tweets aren't getting shown to anybody anymore it feels like I'm not getting nearly that and it's not about I like I posted about the other day is like I feel weird because I'm like this is not about me being like no one sees my content anymore but like.

[00:13:21] I'm not getting to interact with my friends as much anymore. A bunch of people I don't know it just feels like something has changed over there and threads.

[00:13:30] Is starting to feel kind of different like I get a lot more engagement it feels very like something in the algorithm over there is really creating a space for conversation and interaction.

[00:13:42] And you get a few more characters to for some reason and I just like having a few more characters not a lot but just a few more characters to get your idea out.

[00:13:52] And it's like you know I don't have a blue check bitch but I can still like roll out a few more characters and get my complete thought out there so.

[00:14:00] Yeah and it really likes I saw Hank Green post something that came up in my timeline it's at this place really likes replies and it was like him replying to something that came up in my main feed.

[00:14:11] And I and I think that that's kind of a cool aspect of you don't see as many replies in the Twitter feed anymore it's like really just blue check first tweet content.

[00:14:23] And it had and so the fact that like threads is like putting replies like it's incentivizing kind of people to engage in conversation.

[00:14:32] I think creates from more vibrant community because it's not just people going like oh I need to even versus quote tweeting I use things that I used to quote tweet I reply to now because it actually gets views.

[00:14:47] Well in the quote tweets like you they don't come up the same way and your notifications you have to kind of search for them so I do I like replies better so.

[00:14:56] This is very nerdy social media content here for the beginning of the episode but it's it's been fun to kind of be on something the beginning of blue sky was kind of like that but like it was so beta and so closed off to so many people who couldn't be there.

[00:15:08] And this has been kind of a fun you know getting to connect with people because it really does I mean the relationships you've built in me when we got on clubhouse that's how we met you know and like look at us now.

[00:15:22] Yeah, yes, I love it.

[00:15:25] Alright, well yeah we're so pumped about Blake Chastine coming on and he by the time we're releasing this you're a day away probably or even on the day of his book release and so.

[00:15:39] Please please please go order his book it might even be out by the time you're listening so.

[00:15:45] I'm pumped to have read some of it and I have loved everything that I've read so can't wait to just release his interview out into the world.

[00:15:56] Yeah, yeah we got this one a while back and it'll be fun to put it out there and yeah go go order his book go you know order a couple copies into your local bookstore.

[00:16:07] Tell your library to get it you know do all the things that we say to support authors who put in immense amount of work especially on a book like this that's really been written over decades of life experience so.

[00:16:23] Yeah, let's jump into it and then we'll catch you after.

[00:16:30] Alright, we're excited to be here with a guest who I've wanted to have on thereafter for a long long long time possibly predating Megan co hosting Megan's here with me as well.

[00:16:45] Megan and our guest.

[00:16:48] Blake Chastine welcome to the show.

[00:16:50] Hey thanks for having me.

[00:16:52] Yeah, yeah so we're excited to talk to you about a bunch of different things including you know your book that's going to be coming out.

[00:17:02] But I think what I would like to have you maybe start with is the idea of you've been in this a long time you know you were one of the first podcast and voices that I was listening to.

[00:17:23] As I was starting to come back around to the idea of thinking about my deacon version, I've talked about on the show that I like deconverted and then started deconstructing.

[00:17:38] Whereas I think a lot of people do that you know slower process but I needed to like get out a jacked right away and then after a couple years of sitting around smoking weed.

[00:17:48] I was like, I'm not sure if you were covering. I slowly was like, oh there's people having conversations about the stuff that I probably should work through and think through and so.

[00:17:57] Expand Jellical the podcast was one of those places I went to early on and so I'm curious to you now however many years, however many years you've been doing that work.

[00:18:10] What still keeps you interested in it.

[00:18:13] That's a great question and yeah it's been about just over eight years I think in July so I time to release of the first episode that I recorded with one of my best friends from college.

[00:18:26] To coincide with the Republican National Convention in July 2016 and I didn't know that history is going to take the turn that I did.

[00:18:38] But I think the thing that keeps me interested is at its core it's people's individual stories about how they change their mind and even know there are all of these really broad swaths of things that you can find across a lot of people's stories.

[00:18:59] Whether it's purity culture or misogyny or racism or really constructive gender roles that sort of thing.

[00:19:09] Helmophobia like the list goes on and on where we as podcast hosts are sort of familiar with those trends.

[00:19:18] The permutations at each person's story has I think is is really interesting and that is what keeps me interested.

[00:19:29] And also I think that as this sort of space has developed this nebulous, this nebulous group of communities online that seek to do and achieve different things for different ends.

[00:19:47] I've sort of really come down to understand my role and role of the show as the people that are just starting out, you know the people that are.

[00:19:59] So that's why the structure of the show aside from when I am interviewing say an author or some other type of creator is still that really simple three extra where did you come from what caused you to leave how do you look at things now.

[00:20:16] Because that to me is really valuable and especially in our like American context and and like a very polarized sort of social and political setting.

[00:20:28] Some what the capacity to change your mind is no small thing so I I like to be able to to honor that and and to make space makes space for that and so that's what keeps me interested and invested.

[00:20:44] Yeah, that's a great segue because I think that's the thing that I noticed the most about the way that you have been online you've had the expendial equal Facebook group you and and there have been a lot of different iterations of Facebook groups or online communities that have popped up and yours has endured a lot of different.

[00:21:04] You know all of that and so and I think there's a lot of different definitions of deconstruction and what expangial equal means and so.

[00:21:15] And as I've seen yours I vibe with yours a lot and so I'm curious like if you want to just kind of talk about like fostering that community and even you know.

[00:21:25] I know you have a book coming out you're going to talk about the hashtag and and just how that for those folks that don't know like how that even came about.

[00:21:32] And then just what it's been like to be kind of in these online spaces holding space and building that community for other people that are kind of wandering around.

[00:21:42] Yeah, I mean so that the the Facebook group started in 2017 really as an extension of the more public conversations that were happening on Twitter.

[00:21:53] Like definitely in the fall of 2016 but then accelerating after Trump's election because that that did really put a lot of people in sort of a tailspin like even.

[00:22:08] Whether or not you were still within an even geological community or not.

[00:22:15] Use were a lot of people were surprised and a lot of people were like how do we how do we square the fact that this was the community that fostered my my belief in.

[00:22:29] And can compassion and to see to see them championing a public figure like Trump.

[00:22:37] I mean, I don't have to expand on that anymore.

[00:22:40] I think that we all we all get at that point at this point.

[00:22:45] And so it was initially like a patreon perk and then more and more public conversation was like we need we desire like a somewhat more private place to talk about these things.

[00:22:59] And then I just opened it up and open it up to that and then to anyone.

[00:23:07] And since then.

[00:23:09] Brought on a number of administrators and moderators who.

[00:23:15] By and large have like they've they've developed it far far more and they get so much credit for making it the source space that it is.

[00:23:26] I may have been the person that started it but like that it is not.

[00:23:31] It is not something that I should ever take so credit for because so much that is a group project and the only reason I don't.

[00:23:41] Shutter praises is just because some of them may not once public profile which is totally valid.

[00:23:49] But the goal has been for that space in particular for it to be a place where the voices the perspectives that have been privileged within white evangelicalism are not privileged in that space, which is not always easy for a lot of people.

[00:24:10] But it's also modeled on the fact that the majority of the majority of the.

[00:24:17] The moderation team is also not white or male which is what white evangelicalism favors and like.

[00:24:27] Every online community there have been ups and downs and there have been disagreements and skizams and and flame wars and all sorts of stuff and like people or people wherever they go.

[00:24:43] And I try to reckon with that.

[00:24:45] Honestly in the book not because it's.

[00:24:49] Not because I see.

[00:24:52] Expand jelical spaces as like this perfect counter example to even jokalism but I think one of the things that we can learn of leaving a system like.

[00:25:03] Why did evangelicalism is a little more humility and that means.

[00:25:08] Admitting that we aren't perfect and that's not always the case.

[00:25:12] I guess to answer your other question about like how I understand.

[00:25:17] The term x van jelical is as as valuable in that it points to a formative prior relationship just as you might say ex partner expouse.

[00:25:29] That sort of thing it's it was something that was a significant part of your life that is no longer a part of your life.

[00:25:34] And that does signal to other people that you that that may have a similar experience and that has value in and of itself.

[00:25:43] I do also think that.

[00:25:48] It's it is valuable in that it is some people see it as a short count short coming that it is.

[00:25:56] A that it's not affirming that it's an inherently sort of negative term.

[00:26:02] But I see that as as open ended and it doesn't intend to encapsulate your entire life online or off in the same way that evangelicalism does.

[00:26:14] And that means that you can be expangelical and agnostic you can be ex van jelical and atheist you can be ex van jelical and Episcopalian or ex van jelical and who fucking cares.

[00:26:28] I'm sorry, I don't know if you swear on this.

[00:26:30] We typically cover that in the in the pre show thing we didn't we got busy chatting.

[00:26:36] Yeah, but yeah, so to me that that is that is a feature and not a bug.

[00:26:42] That it is open ended in that regard and then it then like there is the other aspect of yes it's now this cultural shore hand and also can be used as a hashtag and all the benefits like and shortcomings that come with that.

[00:26:56] But if I'm being extra philosophical about it, that's how I how I felt about it for years is that I don't expect this like I don't expect this sort of thing to become someone's entire personality or like whatever but it might help you on your own personal journey and it might someday help and help us understand why we all left and like why.

[00:27:22] What commonalities of my habits we try to build something new.

[00:27:25] Yeah, so I think that that leads right into a question that's going to be also a little bit more broad and ambiguous but.

[00:27:35] With the amount of time that you spent the amount of different people the amount of different iterations like you talk about of communities forming and kind of organizing and unorganizing themselves.

[00:27:48] There is this twofold kind of push pull that you're you've alluded to about it being about the personal stories and the individuals and very relational.

[00:28:02] And then also we're addressing systems right these are not just this is not just that bad pastor or that one abuse situation these are systemic.

[00:28:12] Problems with power dynamics and race with sexism and racism and these these things that are entrenched and rooted so.

[00:28:24] How are how do you approach balancing those two sides in these conversations of it is extremely personal and individual and it is super systemic.

[00:28:36] It's out of a.

[00:28:38] Yeah, great question so within the book I and I will just alluded to the book because that's that's where that's where I have I have sort of talked about this but but.

[00:28:53] Those are the sort of.

[00:28:56] Larger questions that I've been trying to wrestle with over the last few years as I've been writing it and.

[00:29:04] There's a couple of things that I have learned from from the field of like media studies actually that I think really apply well in this regard.

[00:29:16] And the first is like as far as as far as like whether or not.

[00:29:24] Participating especially in an online space which can be very activating like a lot of people can be dismissive of.

[00:29:30] Of you know, the internet isn't real or whatever I don't I don't necessarily.

[00:29:34] I think it's a.

[00:29:35] A whole to that like like you online friendship is a friendship like you if you've ever been in a flame war there's like there's physical bodily responses that's that's as real as it gets.

[00:29:50] But the thing is is that these cultures that are online are what what media studies person my call a participatory culture so that means that you can elect to choose.

[00:30:03] And just as people elect to leave evangelicals and make it also elect to leave these spaces that can be activating when when they are not.

[00:30:13] Beneficial to them at the moment.

[00:30:16] So I I also see that that's that is can be an asset and weakness.

[00:30:23] The other aspect of this is that.

[00:30:28] I think people who identify with the term, expand jellical or are deconstructing or that sort of thing wherever they are wherever how are they may relate to that that term.

[00:30:41] They suffer from the misuse of the word community sort of twofold the first is the evangelical church using the term community and the second is tech companies because like.

[00:30:52] A lot of times a oh my god.

[00:30:55] The reaction thing just happened on my screen I didn't realize that was even a Riverside feature but no I think it's I'm on a Mac.

[00:31:03] Yeah, it's a Mac thing what a terrible feature.

[00:31:08] Yeah sorry just balloons popped up after I put up my second finger for the piece sorry they come up with a piece.

[00:31:15] Oh my gosh.

[00:31:17] I am so confusing.

[00:31:18] Yeah.

[00:31:22] So getting back to my less fun topic of of of community being somewhat inaccurate I won't say misleading but like.

[00:31:35] But whenever we whenever we invest in a term like community.

[00:31:42] We have certain expectations and a lot of times that means an expectation of like belonging but then say.

[00:31:50] People turn on you on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or whatever you are crest phone and devastated that like someone that you thought liked you or you know was indifferent to you or whatever could say something harsh or dismissive or whatever it might be.

[00:32:11] And that can be devastating again and that can be disillusioning.

[00:32:20] But so one of the other aspects of of learning for media studies is this idea that these are better understood as public spaces there is like an idea of a networked public and then also this idea of a counter public.

[00:32:39] Which is essentially a group of people that speak back to the dominant voice and a given society.

[00:32:48] So that means like regardless of their persecution complex.

[00:32:53] Money and why even jellicles have a hundred year institutions to fall back on.

[00:32:59] They've got Christiany today they've got an entire network of Christian radio stations, Christian colleges, Christian nonprofits.

[00:33:08] Christian bookstores they have overtaken one of the two major parties in the United States.

[00:33:16] They are dominant and what we've seen over the last eight to ten years is people using new technologies to provide a counterpoint and now like you actually don't need a ton of capital.

[00:33:33] You can just spin up a TikTok page or a podcast or whatever and you've got a shot you don't have like runway to burn.

[00:33:47] A lot of capital but but you can bootstrap stuff and you have a chance to speak back.

[00:33:53] And that is what I think is different about the last eight to ten years is that regardless of some if someone never knows who I am ever they can find the hashtag.

[00:34:06] They can find the hashtag for deconstruction, they can find the hashtag for church to and they can find people that have similar stories and then that can just like and and that is valuable because.

[00:34:21] Why even jokalism has been building up a cultural base for a century and that and that is also a task of the book is to demonstrate that.

[00:34:32] We've been having similar conversations for a century and it's time to recognize that and then see what we can do to be able to move to the next conversation because.

[00:34:46] Because a lot of people want to be done with this and they keep stalling us and they keep bringing us back to these these questions that we need to move on from.

[00:34:56] And I think I am thinking back to when I was first starting my deconstruction just searching the profiles of people that had.

[00:35:06] Expand jokal or deconstruction and hashtags in their bios on social media and then also the other thing that I secretly did was I went on Facebook and and I wasn't a part of the exponential.

[00:35:17] Facebook group yet, but I could still see who of my friends were and some of those were friends that I went to college Christian college with and I was those are the people that I slowly started to reach out to a little bit like hey.

[00:35:33] I think maybe we have similar paths so it I mean even just the the phrasing and the wording bringing people together.

[00:35:42] But I also want to while we're kind of in this space I want to talk a little bit about trauma because you did bring in that piece of like there can be full body activation and also in these spaces everyone's journey has been different and so everyone's bringing into it different triggers different pieces of activation and and so.

[00:36:02] Knowing that like in building these communities were it has to be very trauma sensitive it has to be very you know navigating in a way where there's content warnings where there's you know.

[00:36:14] And so I think that's a ability to have that sensitivity when there are things that that blow up in a community that might have been because somebody was activated because of a certain poster certain.

[00:36:28] And so I'm curious just what your approach has been and how you've learned over time, you know it weighs to navigate that with online community because I know that's something Portland I've talked a lot about as well.

[00:36:42] Yeah yeah I mean that is.

[00:36:45] It's such an important consideration and even those of us who like don't have like.

[00:36:51] Formal trauma informed training like we can also try very hard not to be assholes you know or like try try to be sensitive to people's.

[00:37:02] To people's things and like and.

[00:37:06] Yes even even those sorts of considerations have been politicized and that sort of thing just in the way.

[00:37:14] You know just in the way a term like woke has been.

[00:37:19] Appropriated by the right I don't I can't think of any.

[00:37:23] Left-leaning person what however they describe themselves that would use the term woke anymore it's exclusively a term for the right at this point and they tried to do the same thing with something like triggered.

[00:37:36] But the I think I can speak especially with regard to the management of.

[00:37:45] Of the Facebook group is we do try to to maintain.

[00:37:50] Clear clear rules and then also enforce them as best we can and we also had to.

[00:37:57] As the Facebook group grew in size and activity we had to.

[00:38:03] Restrict open posting to just one day a week in order to.

[00:38:08] In order to make it sustainable because otherwise we were having.

[00:38:13] Constant issues and and people are posting around the clock and we only have about a dozen.

[00:38:19] And so I think.

[00:38:20] Moderators for 13,000 people at a given time.

[00:38:24] Which is just not tenable for 24 seven thing for volunteer.

[00:38:30] Position if this was something where we were you know again a money organization then we would have different expectations.

[00:38:37] But we do try to do.

[00:38:40] We do try to do our our best to ensure that people are following those rules to mitigate.

[00:38:49] We do try to do our best to ensure that we are.

[00:38:50] And we do try to make sure that the.

[00:38:50] And and and things and maybe traumatic.

[00:38:55] And and we you know we have a series of warnings and things like that.

[00:39:00] But then as far as in my more individual work within within within the.

[00:39:08] The podcast space I my.

[00:39:11] And my preface when I often have people on is like if you share something you don't want me to publish just message me.

[00:39:17] I know I'm asking you to be vulnerable.

[00:39:20] I'm not trying there may be a journalistic aspect to the podcast, but it's not my goal to out at you and it's not my goal to expose anything it's a personal story you're choosing to share.

[00:39:36] and honoring that.

[00:39:38] But at the same time, I'm curious for both of you,

[00:39:43] like whenever you host a show like this,

[00:39:47] you also have to hold someone else's trauma too

[00:39:49] and that's not always easy.

[00:39:53] So, and you've even held events,

[00:39:55] which is something that I've not been able to organize.

[00:40:01] So, I mean, I'm equally curious about how you've approached

[00:40:04] the same sort of question, because I think I've learned

[00:40:10] through making mistakes and through just through

[00:40:16] the act of doing it.

[00:40:17] So, I'm curious, like, if you're okay with answering that,

[00:40:22] for me, I'm happy for this to be more of a conversation too.

[00:40:24] This is what happens when you interview

[00:40:28] interviewers on your show.

[00:40:31] Exactly.

[00:40:32] Yes.

[00:40:32] I love it.

[00:40:34] I will say, I do think there's an element

[00:40:38] that I bring in from my teaching experience

[00:40:40] because a lot of what I've learned about trauma

[00:40:43] has been from the classroom.

[00:40:45] And I learned early on to just interact with people

[00:40:50] through the lens of, okay, you know, we know the ace

[00:40:53] is the adverse childhood experiences.

[00:40:55] We know, you know, and honestly, to me, it's not about,

[00:41:00] you know, targeting like, was this your story?

[00:41:02] Was that your story or pity, you know, one story up against another

[00:41:06] story?

[00:41:07] But it was more just kind of interacting with people in a way

[00:41:10] that hold space for knowing that everyone's coming through

[00:41:14] the doors into our lives in a way that is probably the

[00:41:19] everyone has had some kind of interaction.

[00:41:21] And living through the pandemic, we've all, it was a trauma

[00:41:24] cloud, right?

[00:41:25] And so we've all kind of interacted in some way or another

[00:41:28] with trauma.

[00:41:29] And so I just kind of navigate community and spaces and people

[00:41:32] as if we've all carried a piece of trauma with us.

[00:41:38] And some of it, it's, you know, complex trauma, some of it's not.

[00:41:41] But I think through that lens, as, you know, different issues

[00:41:45] arise and as, you know, we're answering questions kind of like

[00:41:49] you said that don't be an asshole piece.

[00:41:51] I feel like when we're online in those spaces, you see things

[00:41:57] explode and you see people kind of crumble and almost

[00:42:01] always it's the same formula like somebody has been maybe

[00:42:07] called in or had some pushback and they tripled down and double

[00:42:11] down, tripled down and refused to accept that they could be

[00:42:15] wrong about something and it gets worse and worse until people

[00:42:18] are just kind of tired of them.

[00:42:20] And I feel like, you know, to be in this space is as you've said,

[00:42:24] to be in a space where you're willing to learn new things and

[00:42:27] be willing to grow and willing to to know when you're wrong.

[00:42:31] And so I think there's that too full.

[00:42:33] It's like, you know, working with people sensitively and

[00:42:36] understanding trauma but then also being able to admit when you screw

[00:42:40] up because we're going to and I know that.

[00:42:43] And so, and I've had tweets that people have said, you know,

[00:42:46] this, this isn't it.

[00:42:47] And I'm like, you know what, you're right, I get it.

[00:42:49] Like I didn't have this perspective that you just brought in.

[00:42:52] I'll share that. I'll elevate that and I'll say how I was wrong in this.

[00:42:56] And I think that that alone is a way to kind of navigate those spaces.

[00:43:00] I don't know, court lens. You have that's about that.

[00:43:04] Oh, I think I think what are the things for me is being

[00:43:11] hyper aware that we at least I have been conditioned to

[00:43:17] develop a very holistic, complete

[00:43:26] binary package offering for all things.

[00:43:31] And what I mean by that is, is like we were conditioned to go like the church,

[00:43:35] the Bible, our theology, our institution

[00:43:42] is has the corner on the market on how to parent, how to manage your money,

[00:43:47] how to run a business, how to be friends, how to get married, how to have relationships,

[00:43:52] etc., etc., etc., how to have eternal life.

[00:43:59] I think our condition, I'm conditioned to develop something and lean into something that's going to

[00:44:06] look like that, you know, the opposite of even

[00:44:10] jokalism just that's progressive and it's gonna have all the answers for

[00:44:16] to deal with interpersonal conflict and friendship and relationships and romance and sex.

[00:44:23] And realizing that we don't have to create an all in one, all encompassing

[00:44:30] ideologically consistent, a conflict free space that there's going to be lots of

[00:44:41] varying arms and pieces and subsets of people that are going to intersect in tons of different ways.

[00:44:51] And so I think just being like constantly bringing us back and reminding that like

[00:44:55] we are not a monolith, right, that we are not. And we don't want to create that it's not realistic,

[00:45:04] it's not something that that benefits anybody. And so I think that that's been the biggest thing

[00:45:14] is just like reminding because it's tempting, especially when you talk about, you know,

[00:45:19] the institutions and I want to get back to like the systems to some extent.

[00:45:24] We want to like, like I want to fight the, you know, Christian store and

[00:45:32] industrial complex or whatever, right? But the answer isn't having the X of I, the X van

[00:45:37] Jellical store and Industrial Complex. Like the, the answer is not creating our own

[00:45:43] like X van Jellical TV stations, right? We don't need to like, you know, whatever the

[00:45:49] X TV equivalent I grew up watching, X TV which was like the Christian TV channel. We don't need

[00:45:56] that like the X of Jellical equivalent to that but I think it's sometimes tempting because we're like

[00:46:02] how else are we going to oppose something seemingly so powerful and unified and resource to

[00:46:07] et cetera. So I'm curious your take on that like like is that an impulse you have as well

[00:46:13] and how have you dealt with that? Right. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate that point and I,

[00:46:21] I will say that I'm actually a little, a little hopeful about the way that I'm seeing more on my

[00:46:28] discourse sort of around, I will use the example of the Harris campaign because

[00:46:36] what I've, as we're recording this it's only been a couple of two or three weeks since that

[00:46:41] development of Kamala Harris assuming the Democratic ticket and the reason why I'm bringing that up is not just to be

[00:46:48] not to be political for the sake of being political but because of the way that I've seen

[00:46:54] sort of the language around like I understand the assignment and like that sort of, that sort of

[00:47:02] which of people assuming their own responsibility for how they can contribute like, you know,

[00:47:14] there are people that are like white dudes for Harris and like they're doing their part in their own way

[00:47:20] and they're not putting all of the onus on either like on a particular single group that doesn't

[00:47:31] deserve to bear the entire burden for like saving democracy or whatever we want to say. You know,

[00:47:38] this is like whether it's black women or the youth votes or women writ large that like

[00:47:47] everybody who is aligned with being the political opponent of Trumpism and that sort of thing

[00:47:56] is and I'm not, and I'm not like saying that saying this as like a you know a wholehearted endorsement

[00:48:03] that's the thing that I'm actually encouraged by is like people can people are starting to express

[00:48:08] that they can, that they can work towards a goal even knowing that it's not the final goal.

[00:48:17] It's not getting someone elected isn't like the end, it's not that it's the, it's the next step

[00:48:24] that we that we need to collectively take. And if I'm going to apply that and I think that shows

[00:48:31] a level of like evolution on the side of more progressive minded sort of online spaces because

[00:48:41] they I mean, they've just notoriously been sort of cannibalistic in like purity tests of all kind

[00:48:48] of like you know if you say something wrong blah blah than then whether or not and again,

[00:48:57] you know if it instigates someone's trauma then then it gets nasty and like all these things

[00:49:01] that we're sort of talking about but those systemic issues still remain within. Within.

[00:49:10] I'm, my, within the book I do posit a couple of things that I did I draw upon from

[00:49:18] this philosopher Timothy Morton who has some really compelling ideas and interesting enough.

[00:49:27] I just recently interviewed them they, they recently converted to Christianity and so we're sort

[00:49:33] of on these like opposite paths but Morton talks about this idea from a field of

[00:49:45] philosophy called object oriented ontology and it's this idea of a hyper object and what is

[00:49:53] they, it's essentially like a very helpful metaphor that they propose for really,

[00:49:58] an early, broad hard to talk about things like climate change but essentially it's a thing that

[00:50:05] exists across time and space that is hard to mention hard to grasp and so climate change is one

[00:50:16] example the the longevity of plastic like not a single piece of plastic but plastic as an

[00:50:24] idea and as like a geological reality that is also a hyper-object and I apply that same

[00:50:31] idea to evintelicalism in that like since the 18th, 19th century fundamentalism has been developing

[00:50:42] and it, and it has been this present part of our, our life and so many of us sort of grow up in it

[00:50:54] and it is something that we need a lot of different lenses and a lot of different perspectives to

[00:51:01] talk about, to describe and to try to address and to try to remediate and so like I do think

[00:51:12] a lot of it does come down to thinking about different metaphors, another aspect of Morton's work

[00:51:21] that I really resonated with is that within their book where they describe hyper-objects they also

[00:51:29] talk about how like the world, the world is a sort of cohesive whole has sort of already ended.

[00:51:38] It, they were like it basically ended and when when the atom bombs are set off in World War II

[00:51:46] and but that actually means instead of it being this nihilistic thing that we were taught in

[00:51:53] evangelicalism, it actually means we have the opportunity to try any fucking thing we want

[00:51:59] and it gives you your will back, it gives you your volition back, it gives you your agency back

[00:52:06] and as someone who like that rapture anxiety is deeply embedded, that's a way to to repurpose

[00:52:15] that same drive, that same thing that is deep down at the sub levels of your like personal

[00:52:24] operating system and to repurpose it and that's where I think a lot of the work needs to be in order

[00:52:31] to address the systemic things is that I don't know that they're like as you said, Portland,

[00:52:38] I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all thing but like there's something wrong

[00:52:44] with our metaphors and we need to explore new metaphors, we need like the soil that we have is

[00:52:52] not healthy and we need to remediate it and we need to address it and then we can grow something new.

[00:53:00] That's like that's why the logo for my podcast is these new flowers growing out of a decaying

[00:53:10] Bible because that thing needs to pass away and I'm not sure what's coming next. I don't know

[00:53:20] I don't know but I want to make space for it, I want to be involved even if it's just doing

[00:53:26] boring soil shit. Like someone else may need to do something else and that's great but I'm happy

[00:53:35] for my part. Yeah, I feel like I'm talking too much. No it's great. It's so good and I think that

[00:53:44] it is there is just this really interesting visual that's like playing in my mind as I'm hearing

[00:53:51] you talk about like people kind of coming to an awareness that as we continue to

[00:54:03] evolve and shift and these things like at some point some of us like have to become soil right

[00:54:09] there has to be these you know like for lack of a better way of visualizing this like

[00:54:17] to be super literal like the literate just podcast right it had to become soil so the other things could

[00:54:22] grow right like there was a point where like that was so formative for so many people and and it was like

[00:54:29] hey this like you know Mike my heart himself was like hey this needs to be soil right like it needs

[00:54:37] to be something um it's not the flowers anymore right there has to be to some extent even a faster

[00:54:44] life cycle than maybe the previous things that came before because we're in this like

[00:54:51] hyper evolving state um needing to like break and make mistakes and learn from those mistakes and that

[00:55:01] means that um you know like we've talked about on this podcast before like there are things that

[00:55:08] we are gonna engage with or like things that like maybe just me being inherently myself and my

[00:55:14] identity as a system and may prevent someone from being able to engage with me in a way that's

[00:55:20] productive and that's okay like I don't need to make that palatable for anyone I don't need to defend

[00:55:26] that to like like kind of like what you were saying with like white dudes for Harris like there's

[00:55:31] there's a spot for me to contribute and then I need to be super aware of when I'm not being

[00:55:39] valuable and contribute at freight and and pulling that back and so anyway there was just

[00:55:44] the visuals going as you were talking and I love what you were saying yeah and I mean on that note like

[00:55:50] I mean there are so many of these podcasts now and like and it's great like like what's the

[00:55:59] what's the value and feeling bitter about the fact that like this is like a robust space

[00:56:07] that like there are people bringing all sorts of perspectives to this like that is that should be

[00:56:14] the point and like I was I was listening to one of your episodes and Megan you were talking

[00:56:24] about like feeling conflicted about whether this should be someone's full-time work

[00:56:29] you know and like I think that that's another aspect of all this is that we also come from

[00:56:39] a very capital focused place to you know you should be able to make this not only a living but

[00:56:49] damn good living you know and I don't and like I I don't know my feelings about that have

[00:56:59] changed over time but but it's but even that aspect of things is like that's something

[00:57:05] something else to consider like why is why was that so formative in where we came from within our

[00:57:14] own evangelical backgrounds and should it should we carry that forward or like what's what's

[00:57:23] reasonable what's some what's appropriate and like I don't I don't know that there is like a

[00:57:33] an exact answer but but the the idea that we're going to

[00:57:40] sort of a light and land on the perfect response to evangelicals in the perfect form of

[00:57:50] like secular or religious identity and community I think that would be the mistake

[00:57:58] like that would be the thing to that would that would be the wrong conclusion and that's not to say

[00:58:08] you always have to feel like you're wandering all the time but just realizing that that like the

[00:58:14] we know how big the world is now we know how complicated it is and making

[00:58:23] being aware of that and making an uneasy piece with it even if we have to.

[00:58:31] Yeah what you were just saying Blake it really made me think about a couple things one is that I think

[00:58:41] sometimes the there you find people that say I've been kind of on this journey for 20 years before

[00:58:47] social media had a place to have community for it you know but I always find those people to be so

[00:58:53] helpful and such a rich part of our community and there's no sense of like where have you been all this

[00:59:01] why didn't you start deconstructing 20 years ago there's a sense of like you know you're finally

[00:59:06] like you know I will hold space for you in the same way you know I wish somebody would have been

[00:59:12] there to hold space for me so I feel like I see that but then I also see that everyone in this

[00:59:19] space has different needs and I remember Phil Drysdale came on and said you know he has started

[00:59:24] away for people to connect physically in their locations and somebody had reached out and said

[00:59:29] there's no one here and he had shown them there's a lot of people there and he goes yeah but what I

[00:59:34] want to do is it's have worship nights and for people deconstructing and that was like what that

[00:59:40] one person wanted to do and people were interested and so I think that we've come to a point which is

[00:59:45] to realize like it's great that there's so many different avenues for people because not everybody

[00:59:50] is for everybody and not every space is for everyone and I think once we become comfortable with that

[00:59:57] that's what I have loved about collaborating even for content warning with other creators and

[01:00:03] and seeing what you've done with your reverent media group is pulling together a lot of different

[01:00:07] you know somebody that might be listening to rev covering might be a different person that's

[01:00:12] listening to God has not given and you're you know and so I just think having those

[01:00:18] those resources available there's there's events that I've gone to that are really theology

[01:00:23] focused and I'm kind of like you know I don't know if the allergies my thing right now you know

[01:00:28] and I think maybe I want to do something else and so has that for you has that also been

[01:00:33] in progression of like have you woven in and out of different you know topics or spaces or

[01:00:40] kind of thoughts of what's the most important thing driving this for me right now and like I don't

[01:00:46] know how have you navigated that yeah that's a great question and I definitely have because I would say

[01:00:52] like 2016 to early to mid 2019 I was still sort of on the like let's make progressive

[01:01:02] Christianity happen type thing let's explore this this let's explore that path and even though

[01:01:10] I wasn't I didn't exclusively interview people who were still Christian who had only like

[01:01:16] saved migrated from conservative Christianity to a more open-ended form that was still

[01:01:24] sort of my personal journey and then you know 2019 was difficult year and I will admit some of that

[01:01:33] but really that was when theology became less important to me it was not and it's sort of remained

[01:01:43] that way and I would say that and I even said this back when I was still in Twitter I think

[01:01:51] I I think are you still a Christian is the least interesting question you can ask

[01:01:57] and I don't think that a lot of people in our community or like or people like yourselves who have

[01:02:06] public facing shows that talk about these things lead with that sort of thing

[01:02:12] you know I even early on I was I did still try to have it be like where are you now and let the

[01:02:20] guest respond and fill that in but I do know that there was a point when I

[01:02:26] when I used to have this like code that I would put on whereas like if there is a god I'm sure

[01:02:31] I know that they would appreciate that sort of thing and then thankfully a you know a guest

[01:02:37] Elizabeth Bridges who is a great guest was like I don't need that really and like said that on the air

[01:02:43] and and I I learned from that and I was like well your dammit you're absolutely right I'm putting

[01:02:50] you I'm putting you in a position that you don't need to be in and as things sort of evolved it

[01:03:00] isn't necessarily like theology just isn't something at the moment that's like it doesn't

[01:03:15] animate me it doesn't it doesn't drive me it's not there were there were decades of my life where

[01:03:21] I did you know and I'm open for that to happen again but that's not when my heart responds to

[01:03:28] the moment and yeah like I am open I wouldn't I my go to phrases been like a statement of

[01:03:39] a statement of non-belief to me is just as binding as a statement of belief so I'm fairly

[01:03:46] comfortable in my you know agnosticism I can't deny the impact that Christianity had and forming my

[01:03:55] ethics and my my first view of the world but I'm not I'm not interested in defending or redeeming

[01:04:07] any form of Christendom I'm happy to stay no longer inside those people but it's not necessarily

[01:04:13] because I want to declare Jesus Lord or anything like that and I mean to me that I'm I'm more

[01:04:23] driven by understanding how a belief makes someone act you know because because that that reveals a lot

[01:04:36] and I mean just thinking on our own our own journeys or you know like when I believe such and such

[01:04:45] about purity culture when I believed it like what how did that make me act how did that make me feel

[01:04:51] how does that make me feel now and like now that I've discarded that now that my my beliefs are different

[01:05:00] what is the outcome of that different belief because that that's to me again sort of puts that

[01:05:05] agency back in my back back with me and I think that that's a really valuable thing that

[01:05:19] outside of outside of the difficulties of of being in community and trusting in community and

[01:05:27] participating in a community even that that individual work to me that's that's really fascinating

[01:05:36] and then when you when you apply that to large groups whether they're political or otherwise

[01:05:42] that's also fascinating what is it that about a belief that motivates people to act

[01:05:47] like politically and and corporally but I don't I can see that more in the group and the people

[01:05:56] the communities that we left and then the ones that we find ourselves in now.

[01:06:03] Yeah I think it comes down to like something Robert Monten said on the podcast about like

[01:06:11] imagination and like the structural ways we talk and think about these things not being like

[01:06:22] not being exvengeal in a way that's palatable to evangelical structures or ways of thinking right

[01:06:28] in the same way that like we talk about like like I don't want to be you know

[01:06:37] queer or or or gay as context provided by straightness right like I like I'm not trying to be

[01:06:45] gay in the same way that straight people are straight I'm not trying to be polyamorous in the same

[01:06:50] way that marginal as monogamous people are arming on it's like it's like I don't want to I

[01:06:55] think we run the risk sometimes of not being imaginative about how we conceptualize these new ways

[01:07:03] of thinking and we're just doing it from the structure you know I heard this this tick

[01:07:09] talker the other day who said like I'm bi-curious but like I'm gay I'm a gay man like like

[01:07:15] like we typically think of persons as they're bi-curious we automatically assume

[01:07:19] you're a straight person curious and maybe you're a straight guy curious the guys right

[01:07:24] I mean he's like but I'm a gay man kind of curious and you know and he's like he's like we just

[01:07:29] always view it in the very heteronormative white evangelical framework and I think that oftentimes

[01:07:37] early on I got very trapped in I need to structure the way I'm talking about thinking about these

[01:07:45] things in the same way that's palatable to these old systems instead of just going like hey we

[01:07:51] could have you know again Robert Martin who is at theologian who like who is it like writing

[01:07:56] theology he's like let's have a totally new imagination like Robert's a great follow yeah

[01:08:03] yeah he's incredible and he was such a great interview and it really challenged you know him talking

[01:08:07] about you know growing up as a black atheist and finding Christianity and now doing theology full time

[01:08:17] and you know me kind of a very opposite journey is right challenging me to like not identify

[01:08:26] myself by these you know these structures and systems and you know having some imagination

[01:08:32] that's why are you saying and I think that's really interesting yeah yeah that's what I that's what

[01:08:39] I absolutely imagination is it like so much of so much of evangelicalism even to this day

[01:08:50] is all about providing you with the script do this live this way you know and then you will get these

[01:08:57] outcomes and those outcomes work for very small percentage of people you know I am I am talking

[01:09:07] to tea levings tomorrow and like and she and the midst of in the midst of her book I'll have it

[01:09:15] done by by tomorrow when I speak to her but like that's an example and so many examples

[01:09:22] that whether it's our own lives or or all of that is like those those scripts don't work for

[01:09:30] one because they're so specific to like white male straight Christian perspectives and desires

[01:09:39] and that's not most people and like and that's why I'm so like one of my favorite books

[01:09:49] that I've read recently in the last year to you was the flowering wand by Sophie Strand the

[01:09:56] title is rewilding the sacred masculine and the author looks at all of these really like all

[01:10:04] of these different you know folk stories even the story of Jesus of like of these you know male

[01:10:12] presenting characters but then provides a different type of perspective and and something that

[01:10:20] some through line is that like these are these were all local local myths local stories and

[01:10:30] they were specific to a time in place and then then they became a part of the ecology including

[01:10:38] it including an aspect of like those stories fed later stories to get back to the idea of soil

[01:10:46] and I think actually if i'm remembering right and I won't like jump in Google on the other screen

[01:10:52] but I believe her her newsletter is called Make Me Good Soil so like this idea of like our

[01:11:02] stories should be alive and even this very idea of like uh techno Hans says like our faith should be

[01:11:09] alive and he was a Buddhist that was in his comparative book about Buddhism and Christianity but

[01:11:15] he says in that book if you're beliefs are if you're beliefs are the same 10 years from now

[01:11:21] than they were 10 years ago that's a problem like our things should change like our faith

[01:11:28] should be alive and that is not what is modeled in present day and historical even though it was

[01:11:35] him you should only grow on this very particular path and if you stray from that path then you

[01:11:41] are demonic or whatever else and I'm I would much rather look at the flurry of activity

[01:11:53] of people leaving and be encouraged about the about the state of the world then be discouraged

[01:12:01] about the state of the church. mm-hmm yeah i think socialism there yeah for sure um

[01:12:10] I think that's a great segue I know we're kind of getting close to time here but I do want to

[01:12:17] give you a chance to plug your you know your book and everything and where people can pre-order

[01:12:22] were very big on pre-orders here but I also want to ask you a question we used to ask our guests

[01:12:27] every single time and we haven't done it in a really long time but um if you because we've been kind of

[01:12:33] wandering through different conversations if you were ever to come back and talk about something that's

[01:12:39] related to deconstruction at all and just have an enjoyable time talking for you know 30 minutes an

[01:12:47] hour about just a totally different topic what would that be and then and then give everybody a chance

[01:12:53] to kind of find plug your plug your work and find you because I know you moved a little bit away from

[01:12:58] Twitter and you're in other things yeah yeah yeah um thank you so much for for the opportunity to

[01:13:05] talk to both of you um I think if i was gonna talk about anything I mean uh you know pick some

[01:13:12] whatever in our d-shet I love x-men uh I've got little x-men toys on my desk uh well that's a

[01:13:19] rogue backside so i got some backside so like uh yeah i would happily talk about comics or sci-fi

[01:13:32] or marble movies um any of those topics i would depending upon what sort of music I might be out of my

[01:13:40] depth there um but but but those uh i've really gotten into the to the dune books um you mentioned

[01:13:49] rev covery earlier uh just in one of those there uh totally sold me on the novels and i'm on the

[01:14:02] original author um and yeah any of those topics i'm happy to to talk about um and as far as

[01:14:14] where people can find the the book you can find it you will be able to find it as of September 24th

[01:14:20] at your your local bookstore uh support local book stores you can also find a bookshop.org

[01:14:28] Amazon uh all the places that you can find books um it's called x-men jelligol and beyond

[01:14:35] and the uh subtitles how american christianity went radical and the movement that's fighting back

[01:14:43] and just to uh it looks at the it looks at prior reform movements the development of uh of

[01:14:51] what even jelligolism especially in america from the 19th century to today and then also looks at

[01:14:59] x-men jelligol and deconstruction uh activity within that context um and i am primarily on

[01:15:09] threads um which i am at br chastain underscore and then um my newsletter is the post-even jelligol

[01:15:18] um because all my ideas begin as puns so post-even jelligol post.com is where you can find that so

[01:15:27] that's where i am online. Hey yeah yeah thank you so much uh for being here and uh again we

[01:15:35] say it every time we have an author here who is getting to have a book uh come out pre order pre order

[01:15:41] pre order the book we know that you can get it in two days on amazon prime or whatever uh but if

[01:15:46] you pre order it uh it helps way more there's never no um and then also ask your library to order it

[01:15:53] because we love libraries and that's a great way to support authors and people who utilize

[01:15:59] the beautiful public service of the library that we still have. Absolutely. It's really your library

[01:16:04] they're real. They're so badass um and uh i'm a huge fan so thanks Blake for being here.

[01:16:12] Thank you very much thank you. Thank you. Thank you Megan. Yeah yeah and this has been great. Thank you.

[01:16:22] All right. Okay. Yeah i'm excited to be back into the groove we'll see if we can stay

[01:16:29] consistent with episode releases I know we have a lot of people we want to hang out with and talk

[01:16:35] to this season and we have a couple things even i want to talk about too. I you know there is

[01:16:40] stuff that i could talk about for sure for sure. All right well um you can check out the podcast

[01:16:50] that they're after podcast on instagram and they're after pod on twitter you can find me at

[01:16:55] the pursuing life in all the places and courtland i think you're mostly on my space these days right

[01:17:01] my space yeah uh i actually it's uh um just google reviews i just like randomly post uh google

[01:17:11] maps reviews and that's how i tweet like i think is something witty and then i just go find a random

[01:17:17] bakery or dally somewhere and i put the thought out in there in their reviews. There you go all

[01:17:22] them supporting local business. I'm supporting local business. Like thousands of reviews they've written

[01:17:25] that's funny. If you're one of those people kudos. Kudos to you. Kordland coffee in all the places

[01:17:32] and if you want to hang out with us uh patreon the discord server is a great way to jump in there

[01:17:37] and be able to interact with us no matter what happens on the wild landscape of social media across

[01:17:42] the web and i'm check us out on Tuesday morning some clubhouse most mornings i remember this past

[01:17:49] Tuesday i'm head to juggle ball but uh yeah most Tuesday morning 6 a.m. Pacific time 7

[01:17:54] mountain and all the other times and all the other times so it was fun people got a real rambly

[01:17:59] version of what morning coffee hour would be if i didn't have maganda rain me in and make me focus

[01:18:05] miss it was like like what's the question i'm like well it's been several different things this morning

[01:18:12] but it was fun it was a good time all right until next time until then