101 - @Transvangelical Returns | Our Reaction When The Straight White Guy Changes His Mind

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[00:01:27] Okay. Welcome to the thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side

[00:01:33] of faith change.

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[00:01:48] hedonism. But we've discovered quite the opposite.

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[00:02:08] in the life thereafter.

[00:02:23] Alright, we're back another episode of the thereafter podcast. We have Portland.

[00:02:28] What up?

[00:02:29] And we have a guest. We have a returning guest. We have Alicia. Say hi.

[00:02:35] Hey, thanks for having me on again.

[00:02:38] It was kind of a, I'm not going to say emergency. But we had a topic we wanted to chat about

[00:02:45] and we wanted to have the conversation on the air because it was something I was wrestling

[00:02:52] with publicly on Twitter and a lot of people had opinions and you weighed in and I loved

[00:02:56] what you said. And we've all been kind of talking about this outside of social media.

[00:03:00] And so I just thought it would be kind of fun to hit record and kind of wrestle through

[00:03:06] together some of the stuff. So I guess we'll just get started and maybe give the context

[00:03:12] for our listeners.

[00:03:15] We're yeah, sounds great.

[00:03:17] Yeah, awesome. So really the concept is like there's this book coming out, The Whiting

[00:03:23] of God's Mercy by Christopher Hayes and Richard Hayes who I'm not familiar with their work.

[00:03:28] I will say that right off the bat. But what happened was I started to see on Twitter

[00:03:32] and Instagram all of these people that were like, this is such a huge deal. Finally, this

[00:03:38] is such a big deal. Let's celebrate. And it was about these men becoming affirming.

[00:03:44] And I had a lot of thoughts and opinions about how much that was celebrated juxtaposed

[00:03:49] with how harmful the theology that they've previously hold has been. And so I just open

[00:03:55] that to get started and we can just wander in any direction that we want to. But just

[00:04:01] initially, I guess I would ask you Alicia, like what what was your reaction? Did you

[00:04:08] come across this separately than my thread or what was your reaction kind of initially just

[00:04:13] seeing all of this dialogue about it?

[00:04:17] Yeah. I first saw on Twitter with who's up has turned Texas.

[00:04:26] Yeah, exactly. That was the first time I saw it and honestly I didn't care to be completely

[00:04:34] honest. But there's reasons why it's kind of it's seen as a big deal. So like just some background

[00:04:42] on the authors like Richard Hayes wrote. I think it was Christianity today that gave his

[00:04:50] like New Testament ethics book as one of the top 100 books for Christians to read. And

[00:04:58] it kind of became this standard ethics book for like Bible colleges and stuff. Like not

[00:05:07] the Bible college I went to because even he would have been too liberal for my school,

[00:05:12] but that's besides the point anyways. Like he's known for being a New Testament scholar

[00:05:19] who does focus on ethics. And in the book that he wrote it came out in the mid 90s, he was very

[00:05:26] very much against anything LGBTTQ plus. Honestly I don't think he talked about trans people

[00:05:34] really just talked about homosexuality. That's you know, that's just kind of where it was at the time.

[00:05:41] So for him to come out and write a book that is like opposite what he said what 30 years ago

[00:05:49] is in that circle kind of a big deal because it shows like hey people can't actually change

[00:05:57] and stuff. And that's positive. On the flip side like this works already been done by a lot

[00:06:06] of other people. And like the only reason why this is seen as a huge step is because

[00:06:14] hooray we finally got the cis hat white guy to say something like that's really all it is

[00:06:22] is that he's the white guy that's finally you know coming forth and saying that he's affirming.

[00:06:30] I think it would have been cooler if Eugene Peterson had done that because he actually did

[00:06:36] become affirming before he died but he was kind of too old to like write about it.

[00:06:42] But in that sense like it is a big deal because of that but like at the same time it's like oh my goodness why are we still carrying what

[00:06:51] the white guys have to say like they've had the majority of theological voice over the past

[00:07:01] whenever Christianity became predominantly European. So like 1300 years I guess

[00:07:09] it's been almost entirely white since then. Like there's other voices let's recognize the fact

[00:07:19] that these guys are not the first ones doing it. Yeah yeah I think that there is there's a couple

[00:07:26] points that you mentioned there at least yet like that are I think reasons why people have reacted the way they have

[00:07:37] one being that this was specifically something that Richard Hayes had addressed in the condemning sense

[00:07:47] explicitly whereas you know you have situations where you have guys like Andy Stanley or other people

[00:07:54] who have been real ambiguous and kind of you know we talk about people like Shane Claiborne and you know

[00:08:01] like they're like oh they're not there they're you know kind of wobble around the issue

[00:08:05] and don't really say anything too specific in order to like stay out of you know the you know the topic

[00:08:15] he had specifically addressed like yes this is wrong yes I condemn this. And so I think the undoing

[00:08:23] of that is something that people found important to like say I was wrong I specifically said this

[00:08:30] and I specifically am saying the opposite now so I think that that's one aspect where people maybe

[00:08:37] a little bit more than you know some other white dude theologians who may become affirming

[00:08:44] made a big deal of this announcement. And then secondarily I think that there is an aspect of like

[00:08:53] what happened with Eugene Peterson where Eugene Peterson essentially did say that he was affirming

[00:09:00] in that interview with Jonathan Martin Marin. Marit, there we go. And then basically I think his family

[00:09:11] was like oh no he didn't know what he was saying and wrote a statement for him and essentially undid it

[00:09:18] because lightweight Christian stores threatened to basically pull all of his works out of every

[00:09:23] store and financially ruin their family forever or whatever right. Yeah that's that's basically it.

[00:09:31] And I think that there's an aspect of people wanting to I guess you know be see a different thing

[00:09:45] happened and what happened with Eugene Peterson right where the backlash causes a recoil.

[00:09:50] You think about what happened with the world vision in like 2000 was it like 2010, 2012 or something

[00:10:00] right around there. Yeah somewhere around there I remember Rachel Holdevins talking about that yes.

[00:10:06] Yeah world vision said hey we're going to like explicitly allow for queer people to work at our organization

[00:10:14] and we're gonna honor those people and their identities in our organization. And it was like hours before the conservative

[00:10:23] internet and their conservative base freaked out to such an extent that they recanted that and said no actually

[00:10:30] you know we're gonna explicitly double down. So I think that there is to some extent an aspect of people

[00:10:37] wanting to do the opposite right celebrate something so dramatically to offset any possible pushback

[00:10:44] that might come to again encourage more people to follow in this behavior and it's really about

[00:10:51] for some people like encouraging the behavior in the right direction.

[00:10:56] But I do think that there is this unintended consequence of centering the wrong person and the wrong

[00:11:04] thing in these narratives which is what Megan's thread and your statements online through you know

[00:11:11] your posts have brought out. Okay well and I want to say that when I see this I know that I tend

[00:11:18] to sometimes be extreme right and I and I also need to take a beat and recognize that I had growth

[00:11:28] that had to happen in my life to get to the point where I'm at today. And I had people that you know

[00:11:34] had grace for me I also I didn't have like a public I wasn't a published author I didn't have a public

[00:11:39] platform when I was going through that process and so it looked different for me.

[00:11:44] But when I see the very first reaction as oh look like we should celebrate this this is incredible

[00:11:53] it reminded me and I said this in the thread it reminded me of like when Rick Warren's church decided

[00:11:58] to start ordaining women and they had women that had worked in that church for decades

[00:12:05] and they were like isn't it so great instead of volunteering now that they can be on our staff

[00:12:09] and I'm like you're not even taking a moment to recognize that these women were not seen or heard for decades.

[00:12:16] And so it's like now the same I'm seeing this thing with career affirmation and I feel like I feel

[00:12:22] like we're on the brink of more and more pastors becoming career affirming and everyone just kind of

[00:12:27] forgetting about the trauma and pain that they've caused all this along this way.

[00:12:31] And so I think that's that's where I'm kind of wrestling and sitting in and I'm curious what both

[00:12:36] of your thoughts are about that.

[00:12:39] Yeah I think that I mean that's that's an incredibly like important aspect to talk about especially

[00:12:47] in new spaces because most of these pastors don't necessarily recognize the harm that they've done and honestly

[00:12:54] like this kind of goes back to whenever the Reformation Project tried to make distinction between affirming

[00:13:00] and queer theology essentially like forcing affirmation to fit into evangelical theology is essentially

[00:13:14] what this is. And the truth is the evangelical church is declining.

[00:13:19] One of the major reasons is treatment of LGBTQ plus people both in the church and within the politics.

[00:13:27] Like it's actually bad for business right now.

[00:13:32] Fuller theological seminary is like mentioned as one of the schools that actively discriminates against LGBTQ plus students.

[00:13:40] Students from Fuller are on the Hunter v department of education lawsuit that is backed by reek.

[00:13:51] Like Fuller is not is not affirming but they're also dealing with the fact that there are queer people like showing up at their school.

[00:14:02] And so they're kind of at a risk of like losing losing some of their students just because some of their students

[00:14:10] are becoming affirming they have students at their school becoming affirming.

[00:14:14] It is being unaffirming of queer people is going to hurt the financial bottom line at some point.

[00:14:24] And the fact is we are seeing people like expand their theology to include queer people but at the same time maintain the same theology that got there.

[00:14:36] It's exactly what we see like with theology in the Southern Baptist Church.

[00:14:41] Like the truth is some Baptist church started because a Baptist didn't like that northern Baptist were becoming like abolitionists.

[00:14:51] The Baptist church said, hey you can't become a missionary and own slaves because that might influence the way that you act on the mission field.

[00:15:01] So the Southern Baptist were like, nope we're going to start our own denomination.

[00:15:08] And that's what they did in Augusta, Georgia they started the Southern Baptist church and was the first denomination to back the Confederate army specifically on the topic of slavery.

[00:15:21] That dehumanization has always carried through SBC theology.

[00:15:26] And even if the Southern Baptist convention becomes queer affirming, if they're never going to address the actual foundation of their theology it's going to continue harm.

[00:15:38] And so that's kind of where like we don't celebrate, I said this on Twitter like we celebrate the progress of the oppressor we don't celebrate the oppressor.

[00:15:49] This is really what this is. This is progress because it becomes affirming because like I said, there are going to be parents who read this book and will accept their queer kid and not like to sell them because this book exists.

[00:16:06] There are there are going to be that positive so we celebrate that we celebrate that progress.

[00:16:12] We don't sell right the oppressor who's still upholding oppressive systems because it's going to continue to produce harm.

[00:16:19] And like the title of their book is the widening of mercy which we have a terrible understanding of mercy within the well, okay.

[00:16:30] Within the evangelical church but in like most Western Christian any event like Catholicism and often I include Greek Greek Orthodox as Western because they're technically Roman because the Roman Emperor split Roman to two and Constant Snowpole became the new capital of Rome.

[00:16:51] And that's where Greek Orthodox comes from. Anyways, I consider them Western just because they still have very Western roots.

[00:17:00] Mercy is completely like misunderstood in what it meant in the first century where it is where the understanding is far more like compassion not necessarily like oh you deserve this but I'm going to withhold it from you.

[00:17:20] Because I am great it's like oh I understand that you are going through something.

[00:17:27] I'm going to help you out there's a difference between that like withholding punishment verse like actually caring for somebody.

[00:17:37] That is theologically speaking because I know I know their background like this idea of mercy comes from the idea of total of gravity it comes from the idea of penal substitute for an entomment where the wages of sin means literal damnation for everyone where God had to pour out wrath on somebody but because of mercy like God poured out his anger on Jesus.

[00:18:05] Like the foundational roots of even their affirmation is in fact harming and we can see it right there in the title.

[00:18:14] So the fact is like yeah this is great like what is going to come is a step in the right direction but we don't like we don't sell necessarily need to celebrate the people upholding terrible systems.

[00:18:27] It's kind of like Georgia wrapped up their legislative cycle and they had six anti LGBTQ plus bills that were able to be passed and the legislative cycle ended and none of the past two of them got incredibly close.

[00:18:44] Like within if they had a half day longer they would have passed but they didn't and so like that's progress.

[00:18:55] Georgia has another year of not having anti LGBTQ plus lots that's in that positive we don't go around celebrating the Republicans that didn't pass it before the legislative cycle ended like no we celebrate the fact that more harm didn't come and we celebrate the fact that we have more time but we don't celebrate the oppressor because they did like the bare minimum or I mean in the case of the legislative chair.

[00:19:24] They just really didn't care enough to pass it but I mean to me it's very much the same thing like yes this is a positive and we celebrate the positive but we don't have to celebrate the person that still pause in harm.

[00:19:40] And I think for me there's this aspect of like we need both right like that we need to have people who are you know to some extent like saying this is a good thing right like that affirmation of progress in the right direction is helpful and to some extent like not having people like myself get real excited about it is in and of itself somewhat helpful right like that.

[00:20:09] Like somebody like my mom is going to be more swayed by seeing a couple more middle of the road moderate white man get excited about this and is probably going to even be more compelled by that moderate white man's approval of this progress when I go fuck that right or like when I kind of oppose it a little bit right so there's almost

[00:20:38] a balance there's almost a thing of working together of where like if I'm continuing to push a little bit further past and I'm kind of seen as the extremist by the middle as the middle begins to push the pendulum a little bit and then I push against the middle we're dragging everyone slowly towards progress but I think that what Megan brings up in her critique is important because I think that I'm going to be able to do it.

[00:21:08] I personally experienced this and saw this with race in the sense that like my grandparents were overtly racist my grandfather said the in word to me my grandmother told me overtly black and white people should not get married right so it was overt racism my parents were not overtly racist they were subtly racist right and so there is a

[00:21:37] there is a danger in not observing that there is a continuation of the problem in that subtlety to think that we solved it because well my grandfather used the in word and my parents didn't so therefore racism is air quotes solved right

[00:21:59] that I think is what Megan tends to be calling out in these threads and and lots of people have have said hey by saying like this is like we have somehow solved you know the problem by you know these establishment folks becoming affirming

[00:22:20] we're going to miss that there's a lot more work to do there's a lot more things to be saw there's a more foundational like Alicia like you're saying foundational problems that need to get addressed and if we don't acknowledge that this very small fundamental element is not the entire thing

[00:22:40] we could perpetuate harm in subtle ways for a lot longer.

[00:22:45] Okay I have some things I need to say.

[00:22:50] Go for it.

[00:22:51] This is so helpful but I also feel like as we've been talking one of the things that I'm thinking about is I think one of my biggest issues

[00:23:01] with the celebration of this book is it feels like and Alicia you address this a little bit when you first started but it feels a little bit like people are like

[00:23:09] finally a person that we actually listen to is affirming and it's like okay well you needed a white,

[00:23:19] cis straight theologian like an academic to say this for you to actually see in here and value queer people because we have been screaming we exist we're here we don't feel seen.

[00:23:32] We have seen queer people traumatized we've seen queer people lose their lives and so we're like here we're screaming and they're like we don't really believe you.

[00:23:42] We don't really understand we don't really see you but then like oh this guy says it and so now or these guys say it so now we can actually maybe think about it for a minute

[00:23:53] and so I think that's one of the things that's the most infuriating about the celebration especially because like one of the posts that I saw I pushed back on

[00:24:02] and in Instagram comments and was told your reaction should be to accept them as allies and I'm like maybe straight man should not be telling me what my reaction should be.

[00:24:17] So there's my rant.

[00:24:20] Let's be clear here this is not allyship like writing a book saying the LGBTQ plus people can show up to your church that's not allyship

[00:24:30] like allyship like you're not an ally until you're showing up to our our prayed you're showing up to our capital buildings to say yeah we deserve equal rights

[00:24:40] like writing this book like writing a book is just a very long social media post that's all it is and makes you feel good.

[00:24:50] And how many queer people are they listening to while they're writing this book that's my other question like I don't know probably Matthew Vines let's hopefully not.

[00:25:03] I mean there's a major difference here at least what you're saying is like toleration is not celebration right like like you can you tolerate us now that's great but like that's not that's not real affirmation is in the celebration is in the actual act of saying

[00:25:21] that like the queerness is beautiful which is a step way farther than this is going to go I'm sure.

[00:25:28] But I do want to like I do want to pick up on what Megan has said here because this is super important because it is what I think and you can push back on me because it's me like watching you and then like diagnosed you and I'm not a therapist or anything like that but.

[00:25:45] I was away yeah but what I see happening with Megan and honestly it's happening within sight of me and it happens all all the fighting time like all the time is it is exposing the fundamental prejudice that we don't necessarily see all the time until it shows up in a place like this there's a fundamental prejudice against queer theologians queer Christian authors.

[00:26:14] And that's not even leaving the Christian like genre like there's so many more like queer like spiritual leaders out there that are outside of Christianity what we're dealing with is a fundamental prejudice against queer people where the majority of society needs that white guy the person with privilege in the dominant culture to say hey maybe we were wrong whenever we've been screaming the whole time.

[00:26:41] So what we're experiencing is just like that smack in the face of the fact that prejudice still exists against queer people and like how deep it goes because yeah all this stuff is said before there's not going to be a single idea in this book that has not been already written about talked about expanded on by queer theologians but because they're doing it.

[00:27:10] They'll be listened to because prejudice still exists fundamentally in our society.

[00:27:18] And I think a one point of distinction that's important here is that like when Megan and and Eulie's here saying like like and maybe this is not what you're saying so please correct me if I'm putting words here but like like I think Megan is definitely saying this is like I'm not going to fucking celebrate.

[00:27:35] Like like that doesn't mean you shouldn't do this right like the idea of course what people here Megan saying is like don't write this book shut up white guys right and that's not what what we're saying like like you should be doing it.

[00:27:53] You should be doing more like we want you to do it just because we are not going to throw you a parade doesn't mean we don't value what you're doing.

[00:28:04] But it's less than the bare minimum.

[00:28:09] Okay well I will say this and in your right that's absolutely what I'm doing and there's people that will say if you constantly say it's not enough to everyone then when will it ever be you know like what how is anybody going to come into this space and be able to do anything at all here's what I'm going to say number one I'm really fucking jaded because I have had a lot of sister.

[00:28:33] A lot of sister white quote unquote a firming allies that I've interacted with personally whether it's been in conversations that we've had in person whether it's been in DMs where they have completely talked over me not listened at all and just completely bypass anything that I was saying so I think I am jaded right I was number one I'm jaded number two.

[00:28:59] I'm going to be honest I feel that way about racism I feel like no matter what I do as you know and I can say quote unquote ally and I say that because I know I can't do myself that but no matter what I do it's never going to be enough and what I've learned is to be okay with that to know that no matter what I do when it comes

[00:29:21] to dismantling white supremacy and whenever you know when it comes to you know really elevating by-poch voices black voices my you know all of these like all all of the things that are happening that are impacting my friends that are different races different ethnicities I know it will never be enough and I'm okay hearing that and I'm okay knowing that and I'm okay continuing to do what I can to reduce harm knowing

[00:29:51] that no matter what I do it probably won't be enough and I'm and I think that that's the thing like these these guys want to feel like they've arrived and they want to feel like they okay like now like I get my pat on the back right and I think you know in the same vein

[00:30:09] I would never go to black friends of mine and say hey like I've arrived right like I get a pat on the back if I do this if I tweeted this if I said this if I wrote a thread like that's just and I think when it comes to allyship or when it comes to how we view people making progress

[00:30:26] are changing their mind I think they need to accept that we're going to view it as like okay great you've done the bare minimum now prove it to us now what like what are you going

[00:30:37] to do that's like what like how are you going to advocate for queer people how are you going to do the actual work I think that's okay to ask of

[00:30:44] people what in whatever type of marginalization and oppression you're fighting

[00:30:50] And I think that there's this so I was like kind of two different thoughts with with stuff that you said like one but making you and I are

[00:31:00] runners right like you've done mostly half marathons I've done a couple of marathons now you've a

[00:31:09] nobody's like but when you know when you're my mild 10 into a marathon right like you don't need somebody jumping in your

[00:31:19] way to say hey this person tied their shoes like this work has already been going like we're 10 miles

[00:31:28] in the sky finally you know laced up his shoes like he's maybe he's about to get on the on the course but like I'm still running my

[00:31:37] thing like I don't I don't have time for this like get out of my way but also at the same time it's like oh hey this

[00:31:43] person did it so now they're a thought leader in this area no like absolutely like hell no like this this person is not a

[00:31:50] thought leader in queer theology or in inclusive discussions this person is at the start is at the very bottom the

[00:32:00] start line it's got a lot of I guess two people I keep saying singular like they got a long ways to go right and so for people to say

[00:32:09] oh hey we need to celebrate this we have like basically saying hey we have somebody to lead the way for us like no step back

[00:32:16] we already have leaders like we don't need we don't need our movement hijacked by the sys hat white guy like this thing's been going

[00:32:24] this thing has been predominantly ran and pushed forward through really a lot of a lot of black fam trans trans people like some of the biggest

[00:32:41] movers have been people that were black and trans fam and that is throughout you like us history like I said this at content

[00:32:51] warning the reason we know that trans people existed in like the 1800s is because black trans women were arrested for prostitution so like our history

[00:33:06] is always been through the most marginalized within queer communities and to have somebody who is part of the dominant culture to step up and say hey I'm here

[00:33:17] I may be able to lead this like no you still have so much to work through you have so much privilege that you have not even

[00:33:26] just started to discuss and the fact is we can see within like their framing that is still using predominantly white theology like there is no liberation in white theology what they're saying is we are going

[00:33:41] to include you so it's kind of like this imagine that it's like king of the hill right where people try to push off the top person

[00:33:52] sis hat white guys always been at the top well eventually they're like you know what maybe

[00:33:59] maybe we'll open up to black people not not immigrants from you know from like Mexico or something like if you're brown you're still

[00:34:09] maybe not quiet and so you kind of half let up black people right because you can't let them all be all the way up

[00:34:15] and they're like oh well maybe you can start letting like women up and then like you know maybe we can let queer people up

[00:34:23] but at the top it's still the white sis hat man that's on the top of this this platform that is saying hey I'll let you

[00:34:31] up yeah I'll let you up that's not how this works like no you it's a power structure that needs to be torn down you

[00:34:39] shouldn't be able to say hey I am going to let you up what what they should be doing is say hey this

[00:34:46] needs to be redone completely because we don't need that power structure that hierarchy that

[00:34:52] allows sis hat men to be the dominant within our culture and and that's really what a lot of this

[00:34:59] is it's like it is an old hierarchical system is based off of white supremacy where white supremacy

[00:35:05] says we will treat you equal but the thing is they can also get rid of you just as quickly

[00:35:11] and that's happened throughout history with basically every marginalized group like I come from

[00:35:18] I come from a denomination that when it started it took like 20 years for them to ordain the first

[00:35:24] woman right they don't ordain women anymore like privilege privilege when it is able to be given

[00:35:33] from the dominant culture it can be taken away and that entire structure is broken but whenever

[00:35:40] we are stopping to celebrate a white sis hat man finally doing something we're maintaining that

[00:35:46] structure of the dominant culture saying hey we're going to let you up and be equal to us for now

[00:35:52] we're not actually addressing the fundamental issue and that's really kind of the most irritating

[00:35:58] for me is like recognizing this it's an entire system of oppression that goes from the top down

[00:36:05] and the further that somebody is from the sis hat male Melissa Wilcox talks about this quite a bit

[00:36:12] there I love their work but the white sis hat male is the dominant and each step that you get

[00:36:19] away from that dominant is the more like the more other a person has seen so at the top you have a

[00:36:27] sis hat white male at the bottom you have a black trans fan homosexual or you know not straight

[00:36:40] and each each and every time that you add a different step away from that dominant the more

[00:36:46] oppression the more baritualization that occurs and it's stuff like this that just says hey I'm

[00:36:54] going to let you come and be kind be be one with me for now it still is still maintaining the white

[00:37:01] sis hat narrative and that's that's already been proven to be toxic in the harmful.

[00:37:09] Well and I think there's an aspect of it too I think all of that is so good um

[00:37:16] and so spot on I think there's also like a natural

[00:37:22] authentic genuine response when somebody like me sees somebody who either looks like me or

[00:37:33] represents a big part of my story doing something that I want to like identify with and celebrate

[00:37:40] and all that sort of stuff like there is some like just like uncontrollable emotion that like when I

[00:37:45] you know if I see somebody who is a hero to me do something like affirm gay people and I'm like oh man

[00:37:52] I want like I'm feeling a feeling about that that is okay I think it's okay for people to

[00:37:58] authentically just like feel a feeling about you know um somebody that they relate to identify with

[00:38:09] was a big part of their story I mean I remember seeing Josh Harris right and like and all

[00:38:16] the stuff when he went through that thing that he went through I was like I was a young pastor

[00:38:21] I was manipulated into being this like thing I read the book I now I wasn't per the particular

[00:38:28] victim of the brand of purity culture that was weaponized using Josh Harris's theology right because

[00:38:39] I was a man but like there's like a a a genuine and a natural response and I think sometimes

[00:38:47] we're like told like hey can you examine that for a second and like there's this reaction like

[00:38:54] um are you saying that my feelings or my I don't know it feels very snow flaky but it's like

[00:38:59] I feel like it's the the way it is are you feeling they're you saying that my like feeling about

[00:39:04] this is wrong and it's like yeah maybe it is like like maybe it is something to be examined of like

[00:39:10] why this is so meaningful to you to look to this particular person and and why their affirmation

[00:39:17] of the queer community means so much to you when these other people didn't I'm not saying that

[00:39:23] you're evil or wrong for feeling that it's probably you know a explainable thing why you feel

[00:39:31] that way but maybe take a beat and like examine why that is I think that there's a aspect there also

[00:39:38] like we're talking about this later like well later on we we saw this probably over the weekend

[00:39:44] and now we're talking about it later Monday night right so our initial reaction is going to be

[00:39:50] kind of different than probably what we're feeling right now we got to let people have their

[00:39:54] initial reactions they come from different places there's people that are responding to

[00:39:58] it positively because they're seeing hope there's people that see it and ignore it because we

[00:40:04] aren't generally don't care what the cis-hat white dudes are doing um and that was kind of my

[00:40:10] response uh and then Megan you had your response where there's a sense of injustice that is going

[00:40:17] on here because because so much harm has been done within this the sphere to just drop it because

[00:40:27] somebody finally takes the barest minimum of a step uh it is a sense it is a form of injustice

[00:40:36] and that has a visceral reaction and to police that reaction is it's not okay

[00:40:44] yeah and I think about the times I just think about how protected they are from that

[00:40:51] marginalization and I think just even on Twitter I remember I had a viral tweet that just

[00:40:59] it was probably one of my most viral tweets and it was like a nothing thing it was about

[00:41:02] inflation it was about like my gas building high and and my looking like my Costco bill and my

[00:41:08] Costco bill looking like my mortgage or something and um after it started getting traction I promoted

[00:41:14] Tory William Stuglus' white homework and just said hey because people were starting to reach out to

[00:41:19] me to say um hey like you you've tweeted about the economy can I donate money and I was like I'm

[00:41:27] good but like there's actually an account here that provides housing for um indigenous people and

[00:41:35] black people in Portland like this is a really great work that she's doing and the amount of racism

[00:41:41] that came out of the woodwork from as little as like I retweeted this tweet and now I'm going to

[00:41:46] un-retweet it because you have promoted something that's what they say racist towards white people

[00:41:51] right and I'm like oh you know I had like a hundred thousand retweets so now it's 999999 I'm so sorry but

[00:41:59] anyway I just when people start interacting or I think about when my trans friends like when

[00:42:05] people do that like innocent quote tweet of like what were you like 20 years ago and now and

[00:42:12] people post pictures from like pre-transition to their transition and and I know that when

[00:42:18] people do that they know that they're putting themselves out there for a lot of hate and attack

[00:42:25] and slurs and and I think that these that that's what makes me mad is that I viscerally I have friends

[00:42:31] that experience this I have people in my life I've experienced you know marginalization when it comes

[00:42:36] to my sexuality like I just feel like these guys are writing on it from this really high academic

[00:42:43] level where they're like our voice is so important here and it's like I feel like you're not on

[00:42:49] the ground seeing what's really happening to queer people and seeing what's really happening

[00:42:54] to people that are oppressed because I see this not just on social media in real life like I see

[00:43:00] this and and I feel like they're not seeing it they're just like kind of using queer people as

[00:43:06] fodder for you know oh we're gonna have like right now it says it's the best seller in gender

[00:43:12] and sexuality in in religious studies on Amazon and it's like okay like are they gonna have

[00:43:18] their goodbye Christopher and Richard Hayes moment on social media I don't know like I it's just

[00:43:23] I'm sure yeah well yeah I mean you bring up such a great point like the worst that is going to

[00:43:32] happens to them is they lose some money right like more like for his yeah and there yeah

[00:43:42] Christopher Hayes is a professor at Fuller technical he could actually lose his job so I will give him

[00:43:48] that Fuller is not affirming last February they really somebody at their school because they affirm

[00:43:58] the same same sex marriage and so they dismiss them from their position Fuller is not affirming

[00:44:03] and and Christopher Hayes is actually putting his job up mine and that's something I'll give him

[00:44:09] that that is something do you know why I don't use my real name on Twitter and stuff like it's

[00:44:17] literally for my safety like trans evangelical exists for my safety because like him saying something

[00:44:28] could have financial implications me saying something could have like deadly implications like

[00:44:40] the the amount of protection that they have from who they are from from their skin color their

[00:44:49] their gender from their orientation from their academic circles and let's be honest

[00:44:57] most academic circles are inclusive like the publisher is Yale University press like it's not

[00:45:06] necessarily a Christian publisher gasp like who would have thought but like it's not in our

[00:45:13] city yeah right but but so like the sBL the the something a bit the cold uh literature or yeah like

[00:45:31] and you I think you know what I'm talking about yeah talking faster now can think so they like

[00:45:37] they still uh take money from like Baylor University right who has a religious exemption that

[00:45:44] allows them to literally sexually harass their students it is in their religious exemption that

[00:45:50] the Department of Education gave them sBL still takes their money and lets them promote their stuff

[00:45:57] right so like Christopher and Richard Hayes like they're in a place where they're safe the worst

[00:46:06] that's going to happen is Christopher loses his job and he gets a job at like probably Yale since you

[00:46:14] know Yale is doing this you know so like it's not the same um I like me being a trans like the

[00:46:24] Eloch and then I get it I like compare what I do and what I put out there in a lot of circles is

[00:46:31] considered blasphemy and I I said this earlier today on Twitter like if you like I do these jokes

[00:46:37] and stuff because I am trying to highlight the fact that my jokes are just jokes even geoclism

[00:46:45] and terrible theology has real world implications so like if you're upset because I talk about

[00:46:51] the eclipsed today and Jesus finally coming and it being difficult to get it out of your hair like

[00:46:58] that's a joke your theology says it's okay to put razor wire at the southern border

[00:47:05] that's not a joke and yet my thing is blasphemy I can only do this because I have a certain level

[00:47:14] of enmity because people get angry and I don't have that necessarily like place of protection

[00:47:23] these guys are coming from so like yeah you're right they don't have anywhere near the same danger

[00:47:30] that somebody else has somebody else that who's already been doing the work and there's been people

[00:47:35] people done the work far longer than me I'm I'm a new compared to um a lot of people out there

[00:47:42] doing this type of work um and they've risked they've risked a lot to say the things that they've

[00:47:51] said whereas CRISPR and Richard Hayes like they're not risking anything like it's safe

[00:47:59] it's let's say stuff it's calculated I'll say this and then I want Coralina jump in but the other

[00:48:05] thing I'll say is not only did they not have the same risk but they don't I feel like they don't

[00:48:08] have an understanding of the scope of the risk that others are facing like they're they're not

[00:48:12] only protected from that themselves but they're also protected from even seeing it or allowing

[00:48:18] themselves to see what others are facing and that's one of the biggest things after transitioning

[00:48:23] is like seeing the level of privilege that had before transitioning to losing it now

[00:48:28] and I get that like people people have always lived with less privilege than no white males um but

[00:48:37] you know I lived in a place of privilege I didn't understand privilege really until it was taken away

[00:48:42] yeah yeah yeah I mean I don't I don't I don't have a ton else to add I think you know

[00:48:49] there's there's we've talked about a lot of things here I think that there is

[00:48:55] validity to however people feel in these situations but that doesn't mean that those feelings

[00:49:04] should or can go unexamined um and that those hold the entire picture like there's

[00:49:13] there's more to see for all of us um and I would say even for those of us who are a part of this

[00:49:21] community people like myself who identify as queer and you know obviously am impacted as a queer

[00:49:31] person I still also have copability in harm that I perpetuated and caused right you think about

[00:49:40] people like Alan Chambers um who yeah I mean eventually came around and you know it's living in

[00:49:49] affirming gay life but ran Exodus International for years I think I have the name right Alan Chambers

[00:49:57] who is the director of Exodus International right like like I mean it it is so many of us who

[00:50:06] who are also impacted by the trauma of homophobia also work-opable in perpetuating it as well

[00:50:17] and there's an aspect that we all have responsibility to take accountability for our role

[00:50:26] in that um in an addition to our role in supremacy culture and colonialism and all the other

[00:50:37] you know ills that have stemmed from the brand of Christianity and evangelicalism that many of us

[00:50:44] you know grew up in there's yeah I hear all that and it yes absolutely and I love that you bring

[00:50:51] that up there's there's another thing that and I know we're close to time but there's another

[00:50:54] thing that I just want to mention briefly and that's because it came up in my in the comments after

[00:51:00] my thread somebody brought up I think it was Miss Charlotte brought up the pastor I think a youth

[00:51:07] pastor that became affirming after nine years of being close queer queer people and people were like

[00:51:14] okay that's great but nine years seriously it took that long yeah and here's the thing

[00:51:19] I still follow that youth pastor and he's great he's he listens he I feel like he takes cues

[00:51:25] from queer people nobody is saying go away cancel you people are just needing to be able to express

[00:51:33] hey like nine years is a long fucking time for you to to really decide to love people and value

[00:51:39] them like and like when people can accept that feedback that's when that that angst and that

[00:51:47] tension starts to dissipate a little bit because I think that what makes me more angry is when

[00:51:54] you get ranty and then told why do you feel this way just accept this person as an ally you know

[00:51:59] and and I think that that guy like saw that feedback and it was like fair that's fair like I

[00:52:06] agree you know I don't I don't he said that but I'm just like I think that that's the approach

[00:52:11] and the attitude in the pastor that I've seen him have I don't know I you know I might have

[00:52:15] missed something but but I just think that's what is missing because we need to be able to have

[00:52:21] those critiques and we need to be able to have this dialogue where we say okay fine you've done

[00:52:26] the bare minimum and have the people that are writing these books say okay I realize this is

[00:52:32] the bare minimum versus like what you have no idea what yeah because I think that's what's missing

[00:52:39] is that we're critiquing it and not being listened to and being talked over if that makes sense

[00:52:46] yeah and that really goes back to that whole that whole like internalized prejudice against

[00:52:54] queer people like why aren't you just excited for this person to have done this well

[00:53:01] there really is no reason for me to be excited for them there there are some reasons to be

[00:53:07] happy for the possibility of harm reduction in certain circles we still want more and and that's

[00:53:15] okay to say uh the policing of emotions especially from people who have been marginalized like

[00:53:23] that is still part of oppression it is like you're not allowed to feel those feelings um

[00:53:29] and that that's that's wrong I do want to I do want to say like real quick like

[00:53:34] whatever whatever people's feelings are to this book coming out what is positive it's negative

[00:53:41] like we talked about this in kind of more negative terms but like if you're positive about

[00:53:46] this that's great like we do not want anybody to like change their mind that about a positive

[00:53:53] feeling because yeah there is in fact movement and we do want to recognize that mostly what we're

[00:53:59] upset at is people telling us how we should uh how we should respond to this book and that's really

[00:54:07] what it is because it's just it's another layer of control right it's it's another layer of control

[00:54:13] like well you can't express love towards somebody up this of the same gender or you can't identify

[00:54:21] as something other than your assigned uh your your assigned gender like these are rules that people

[00:54:27] are trying to put on you well okay now that we finally like push back and said oh we don't care

[00:54:31] what you say about those things and now you're trying to say oh you have to respond this way no

[00:54:36] we're we're actually really tired of you telling us how we should respond so all of that is to say

[00:54:43] it's like we're not up here telling you how to respond however you're feeling about it is valid

[00:54:49] don't let anyone else like tell you how you should feel about this because it's yours

[00:54:55] there are no rules on your emotions your responses to things there's positives there's negatives

[00:55:02] whatever you want to focus on that's great for you don't let anyone tell you how to do it

[00:55:08] yes yeah standing oh can we take that expression in a beautiful way or sitting

[00:55:19] however you like to do it I mean the eclipse happened Jesus didn't come again so somebody needs

[00:55:26] an oh there you go there you go this has been lovely um yeah yeah I think you know these conversations

[00:55:36] hopefully people find them affirming and helpful and we're just trying to be curious and and

[00:55:45] makes space for for all the different perspectives people have throughout these different experiences

[00:55:53] absolutely and at least yet per usual plug where people can find you yeah um if you want to

[00:55:59] follow me on something public just twitter um at trans band jockele not really on anything else but

[00:56:08] apparently if you tag me in a comment on instagram i'll respond like Megan did today

[00:56:14] but i'm really not on instagram uh if you want to follow me more privately um my only

[00:56:21] fans is also trans band jockele and um it's just five dollars to subscribe which is a pretty good deal

[00:56:30] for what i do in my post things uh i've been posting probably three to four times a week um

[00:56:39] and about every other week i'm doing strip theology Thursday so you know five dollars five

[00:56:45] dollars a month gets you two strip theology uh conversations there you go well worth it

[00:56:53] i want to juxtapose that with i don't think Christopher Hayes and Richard Hayes like have the

[00:56:58] capability to provide that kind of content but i don't know yeah i don't even know if we would

[00:57:07] invite them to provide that kind of content i haven't seen them yet so i don't know but um

[00:57:12] that may not be their things yeah might not be um one more plug i guess uh we're still working on

[00:57:19] so i have no ETA but me and wild violet who's also been on this podcast are cooking something up

[00:57:27] so please uh be following us to find out what's going on and it's really um we're trying to do a

[00:57:34] project that's really came out of content warning from this last year whenever we really realize

[00:57:39] that there is not a lot of discussion around um positive sex work creation and consumption um

[00:57:49] there's uh there's still a lot of questions there and if my tweet from last weekend says anything

[00:57:53] we still have them in that don't understand that uh saying i do at the altar is not it guess for sex so

[00:58:01] yeah still we still have a lot of sex heads to get through so uh wild wild violet and i are going to be

[00:58:07] um starting the project focus on stuff like that oh yeah great

[00:58:13] cool awesome thank you so much for being here uh it was it was it was as always really great

[00:58:19] i love being a guest on podcast yeah this was great and i feel like uh at this point our listeners

[00:58:25] know where to find us patreon.com slash there after courtly coffee pursuing life

[00:58:32] and i with that that's a wrap we'll continue our regularly scheduled programming after this week

[00:58:37] but we just i not an emergency but just wanted to have a conversation about something that was

[00:58:42] happening now so thanks for letting us interrupt yeah see y'all next time

[00:58:48] down next time