099 - @Transvangelical | Transition, Sex Work and Reclaiming Our Sexuality Through Better Theology

[00:00:00] This is Adontless Media Collective Podcast. Visit don'tless.ethm for more content.

[00:00:30] I hate you, that's really it.

[00:00:35] And I hate black people.

[00:00:36] Things are going to get worse before they get better.

[00:00:39] What is presented to me as an American does not look like me.

[00:00:44] Because you're not allowed to be a black man in corporate America.

[00:00:47] You give us a hard time for being white and being American and being in control.

[00:00:50] And when you live under a situation like that constantly,

[00:00:53] and then you ask me whether I approve of violence.

[00:00:58] And that just doesn't make any sense at all.

[00:01:01] Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening right now.

[00:01:04] And you know what? We need a space where we can debrief some of it and deconstruct.

[00:01:09] If you've been looking for a POC-centered podcast that engages with intersectionality, religion, critical race theory,

[00:01:16] and some hip-hop culture, then you need to check out Provene Faith.

[00:01:20] I'll be your host, Daniel Whitehodge. And we go in every other week.

[00:01:25] So check us out wherever you find your podcast or check us out at whitehodgepodcast.com

[00:01:31] to see what other platforms we're on.

[00:01:34] Cool? I. Peace.

[00:01:37] I love you.

[00:01:43] All right.

[00:01:44] Okay.

[00:01:46] Welcome to the thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:01:53] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities

[00:01:57] and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:02:01] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a better wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.

[00:02:06] But we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:02:10] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith

[00:02:14] who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:02:19] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith, and the life thereafter.

[00:02:40] Welcome back.

[00:02:41] Another episode.

[00:02:42] Up to the thereafter podcast.

[00:02:44] What? Yeah, what's going on?

[00:02:46] We're we have an incredible interview this week, one that we've had in the hopper for a bit.

[00:02:51] And I'm excited to be putting out there with another content warning,

[00:02:56] collaborated with us at content warning which is exciting.

[00:03:00] But before we get into it,

[00:03:02] anything we want to chat about in the intro segment of today's episode?

[00:03:09] Well, you know, there's been something happening on Twitter and it connects with a clubhouse conversation that we had on Tuesday morning

[00:03:15] and deconstruction coffee hour shout out to that.

[00:03:18] If you aren't on the clubhouse app, it's pretty easy to figure out live Tuesday mornings,

[00:03:23] 6am, Pacific time.

[00:03:25] We do a chat.

[00:03:26] It's, you know, if you live on the East Coast, it's a normal time for you.

[00:03:30] But, um...

[00:03:31] Everwell is it's early.

[00:03:34] Yeah, we were talking about like holding on to uncertainty and how do we let go of certainty

[00:03:40] and then it kind of mixed with a conversation that was happening on Twitter because

[00:03:44] a previous, I don't even know how much we want to get into it.

[00:03:47] But somebody that used to be, I would say kind of an influencer in progressive spaces,

[00:03:53] maybe a little bit deconstruction in ex-fangible spaces has gone down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

[00:04:01] And there was a lot of dialogue about it because she came out with a tweet that essentially was denying the Holocaust.

[00:04:08] And so we were so shocked and people had like, had her muted for a while and just kind of not paid attention

[00:04:14] and then suddenly, you know, look at her feed and it's like, oh man, like this is outrageous.

[00:04:19] And so it led to a whole discussion about when it comes to questioning everything.

[00:04:28] There's people that, it's like almost there's a couple of things happening there.

[00:04:32] I don't know, give your takes because we had this good discussion and I want to kind of bring it up

[00:04:37] and talk about your reactions and stuff.

[00:04:40] Yeah, yeah. And I didn't know who this person was.

[00:04:43] I was...

[00:04:44] I had like not to say that I hadn't seen them in the Twitter verse but I don't ever remember them being a commonplace name.

[00:04:53] But I think that's because I was late to Twitter.

[00:04:55] I didn't really get into Twitter until we became good friends, we started doing this together

[00:05:00] and then I was like, what's the Twitter thing about?

[00:05:02] And I had had one obviously since like 2007 but I had not used it aside from...

[00:05:08] If you go way, way back in my Twitter feed, you can find me tweeting like Andy Stanley quotes or something, I'm sure.

[00:05:14] Yeah, that's like me in my Instagram way back is Tim Keller quotes.

[00:05:19] Yeah, but you know I...

[00:05:22] We've talked about this with some other folks on the podcast.

[00:05:25] I would love to do an episode with a guest about the very particular dynamic of kind of the anti-establishment coming out beginning to question the narrative

[00:05:44] and even kind of like the woo woo spirituality, right?

[00:05:47] Like kind of like leaving fundamentalism into this more like open maybe new age or you know I call it woo woo spirituality to right wing pipeline.

[00:06:01] Because it's real...

[00:06:04] I feel like Tori maybe had touched on it in one of the conversations that we had.

[00:06:10] And I'm sure a few other folks have as well but I mean in our clubhouse chat Justin Gentry from Go Home Bible You Drunk

[00:06:21] had really kind of illustrated well that like there's this reality of like realizing oh this whole narrative that I was handed this whole structure of reality was not real.

[00:06:34] And so therefore what else might be you know contrived and not real and a farce.

[00:06:42] So that can begin to snowball into a nothing is real.

[00:06:52] Nothing no one can be trusted, no one which then really I feel like is going to just take on the direction of whatever assumptions you are leading with.

[00:07:08] To be fair like I think that the core or the instigator for these kind of horrifying and somewhat outlandish claims about Holocaust denial began with this pro-Palestinian sentiment that many of us also share a concern in a care about Palestine

[00:07:34] and what's happening with the genocide there and what's happening to the people there.

[00:07:41] And I've talked about this on the podcast in recent weeks another shout out to another previous guest Ilaud and Nora I always say his last name incorrectly Ilaud Nohurai I believe I may be incorrect.

[00:08:01] Scroll back aways he was in season one.

[00:08:06] He was formerly in a fundamentalist acidic Jewish sect came out of that and does a lot of writing from a Jewish perspective about these topics and he's been talking a lot about how I was just going to say that he has been talking about Palestine and everything going on.

[00:08:25] And how people are capitalizing on these emotions, these sentiments specifically right-wing influencers to perpetuate anti-Semitic agendas to perpetuate neo-Nazi agendas to perpetuate Holocaust and I or agendas.

[00:08:51] And also on the other side of it, there's a lot of people using anti-Semitism to as a way to not address Islamophobia and the actual genocide.

[00:09:09] Basically, if you are operating from a framework of knowing your conclusion first and then looking for data afterwards, you're going to be susceptible to bad information and to conspiracy theories and to people who are playing upon your emotional response and your kind of knee jerk reaction.

[00:09:36] And this is becoming more and more with AI, with deep fakes, becoming more prevalent with voice imitation.

[00:09:46] I mean, I heard a story the other day of people were doing robocalls before a local election using AI voice manipulation to make a call on behalf of Obama or various other people being like, hey, I'm calling voters to say this or that.

[00:10:06] Right. We're having to start becoming a lot more skeptical of the information being put in front of us and that can sometimes lead people to a unchecked skepticism that leads to these sort of situations.

[00:10:27] I'm rambling and it's really complicated.

[00:10:30] I think in part of that conversation that we had was who are the people that are saying which stuff, right? Because when it comes to the Holocaust, you have well documented historical evidence and you have physical place that even what's her name, Marianne William.

[00:10:50] What's her name?

[00:10:52] I did see that. Yeah, I don't know her name, but I did see what you're I think weapons they get her last name wrong people were like, man, is she making more sense than this other Holocaust and I are because she replied to that tweet and was like, go read a book, visit Auschwitz,

[00:11:09] like visit, like go outside, like watch something so much historical evidence and then the people that are disputing that don't have any credentials for that. And it reminds me, it reminds me of the flatter. There's a few ever watched part of the documentary.

[00:11:26] There was a piece that where they try to twist the they try to twist the narrative and say, well, the reason that scientists and people with PhDs say that the earth is round is because they've had so much in education and education is where you get indoctrinated with this according to them bullshit that they've had so much more time to have been indoctrinated.

[00:11:54] So it's like these conspiracy theorists find a way out of everything or and I'm not even going to say that's limited to conspiracy theorists because I had shared in that conversation that there's been some like, and this is my education nerdiness intense reading was happening about the scientific evidence of how children learn to read.

[00:12:16] There's there's people that just love their methods of teaching reading and they're able to find ways to talk around the research and dispute it and say like, well we know better because we're seeing things happening in classrooms that the researchers don't know about and teachers buy into that right.

[00:12:33] And so even if it's not a while conspiracy theory, there's ways to just justify your side of things and it just becomes a mess where you're like, where do I even begin to muddle through all of this nonsense.

[00:12:47] And it's like, let's go with what research and evidence shows and what people's credentials show.

[00:12:52] So that's a way, you know, it's a it's a failure to look at the evidence to have an evidence first or a data first approach to figuring out what you think about things.

[00:13:04] And it is coming from a perspective of starting with the conclusion that I mean, I saw people do this with the vaccine and with COVID, you know, people would be like, oh we're starting with the conclusion that the pharmaceutical companies are these wealthy greedy.

[00:13:21] Corrupt institutions, right. And so then I'm going to form my opinion about the vaccine and it's efficacy and various other aspects of vaccine based on the fact that I think the pharmaceutical industry is inherently corrupt.

[00:13:36] Well, that's not you can't start with a conclusion about the pharmaceutical industry and then come up with a specific conclusion about a very particular vaccine

[00:13:46] because you're going to be able to find either data or a lack of data, which sometimes people will use to, you know, influence you or convince you of what you already believe.

[00:14:00] If we start from the position of the government is corrupt, then I don't have to show you data. I can just go, hey, the government is corrupt and therefore, you know, XYZ, you know, why wouldn't you be skeptical of these things?

[00:14:15] What they're telling you because they are, you're starting with this conclusion that you can't trust the data rather than going like, hey, let me try to collect data.

[00:14:28] Let me start with like verifying the legitimacy of that data, the consensus around that data. Right? Like is this a doctor who is, you know, maybe not a medical doctor or not a immunologist or is not fitting with the consensus of doctors who are in that field.

[00:14:50] Right? When we talk about, you know, somebody might be like, oh, well, I know this professor who said this one thing but they were not a, they were not a historian. They were not a professor of history. They were not a professor.

[00:15:02] You know, it's like you can find somebody who will back up your conclusion, your belief that you already decided you believe or we can look at the data and also look at consensus in that data.

[00:15:19] Right? It is not going to be when you, when you look at climate science. Right? Like there's these high percentage, you know depending on who you're looking at 80 90 plus percent of scientists in this field agree about human contribution to climate change and that climate change is real and that it is a serious threat and et cetera.

[00:15:41] That means you can find a couple people who are scientists, who may disagree with that but they are not aligned with the consensus of the majority of these content experts. Right? And so I just think that in this day and age and especially when we're coming out of situations where many of us were lied to about things.

[00:16:06] We were, many of us grew up thinking that men had an extra rib or women had an extra rib or men had one last rib and dinosaurs weren't real and the earth was, you know, 4,000 years old.

[00:16:19] Like we were told these things and it's a huge shock to realize those things aren't true and the response hopefully shouldn't be nothing is believable.

[00:16:33] Let's start believing. There are things that are true. There are things that we can actually collect data on and we can be confident about.

[00:16:45] And yeah, it's, it's wild to me that this dynamic does exist but it's really prevalent.

[00:16:54] Yeah, a couple of things I'll say one is I, I don't know if you were doing this, Corleen. We didn't like plan this but I intentionally didn't name the particular person because I think that she's had some mental health issues and some substance abuse issues and I think there's been a lot going on and I'm not saying that that justifies her position but we're not here saying like this is a takedown of this particular person.

[00:17:17] It's more just a conversation about the broader, the broader intentionality that it takes to make sure that the information and as you're kind of exploring and journeying the information that you're getting doesn't lead down this kind of path.

[00:17:34] If you're like I, I need to know because I just kind of want to know like who I'm following and if you know she does a DM and we'll talk about it in the, in other more less public spaces.

[00:17:46] The other thing that I wanted to say is we are in a few weeks releasing an episode with a journalist from NPR and having a conversation and she brings, she writes in her book the ex-manjulicals a little bit about like just kind of the connection between you know evangelicalism and the propensity to believe some of this human on and that kind of stuff.

[00:18:10] And I've been fascinated about that kind of thing and then also kind of the conversation we're having where it happens on the other side.

[00:18:18] So it'll be interesting to see what she has to say and just show that too.

[00:18:22] Yeah, and I think that these conversations that we get to have start to challenge some of our assumptions about you know the identity markers being a complete person.

[00:18:39] A complete way to track whether somebody saying something is legitimate or somebody who is you know when I talked about this on a recent episode, you can have white gay men who are super transphobic or super misogynistic or various other aspects of problematic racist.

[00:19:02] And these particular I was blown away when I was super involved in the cannabis and the psychedelic space, how many of those people were anti-maskers who were anti-vaxxers who did not believe in isolating during lockdown who ended up resulting in a lot of people getting sick and a lot of unnecessary harm caused to people because they were in this mindset.

[00:19:30] And I was like, what if I thought like oh those are my people the people taking psychedelic mushrooms to like you know like you would not think that those people would be lockstab with my evangelical parents but in that one particular issue they were right.

[00:19:48] And that was a great example of you know the identity marker there, the values in one area and we say this all the time with you know race issues in this deconstruction space.

[00:20:02] You can have deconstructed some of your harmful beliefs about Christianity and not begin to think about your whiteness as people coming out of white evangelicalism.

[00:20:13] Not begin to think about these other aspects of yourself and where you come from so.

[00:20:20] Those conversations have to be intersectional they have to include decolonization and they have to be rooted in harm reduction but all that to say we have a really great guest we have a really great interview here coming up trans evangelical also goes by Alicia and we got to hang out with her at content warning that was delightful I heard a lot of feedback about her panels.

[00:20:42] Her panels specifically in the things that she said that really sparked curiosity and made people think and got people excited and gave some new perspectives and I heard feedback about all of them but a couple people mentioned her by name so.

[00:20:55] This interview we did before the event but it was also just lovely to see her and I can't wait to hear to share with you all what she had to say in our discussion let's get into it.

[00:21:12] Alright another episode of the after podcast one of your hosts here Cortland coffee along with Megan welcome Megan to our show.

[00:21:26] Hey, hey and we have a guest today we have Alicia who you may know as trans evangelical on Twitter and other places say hi.

[00:21:36] Well, jump in because we've been wanting to have you for a really long time and we're finally able to talk so I'm super pumped if you want to just get give our listeners a little bit of context of who you are and kind of your little bit of backstory before we jump into some of the topics that we want to talk to you about.

[00:21:57] Yeah, like you said most people know me as trans evangelical primarily on Twitter. I kind of expanded out into other apps but I don't know Twitter is just once you find your spot it's hard to start again on like blue sky or something even though yeah.

[00:22:16] But also on top of that I write and stuff I have a sub stack and I also have an only fans where you get both sexual content and theological content because I do strip theology Thursdays which hasn't been every Thursday recently.

[00:22:37] Just because I have not had the time but most Thursdays I get about a eight to 10 minute like little video where I talk about some theological topic while you know stripping.

[00:22:51] So it's super fun. My background is basically like at most people that grow very evangelical, very conservative.

[00:23:01] I got went to Bible college and I went to seminary and I have an imdiv so in all that mostly in extremely conservative fundamentalist schools.

[00:23:16] Your background is like most people that all sick group evangelical.

[00:23:20] I mean most people yeah many of our listeners listening to your podcast.

[00:23:27] Talk about it when the transition for you happened in terms of growing up in these kind of conservative spaces and then beginning to realize that maybe your direction was going to be in a different way.

[00:23:47] So I was like what brought you to starting the trans and jellicle Twitter account and kind of like what that journey's been like so like both of those kind of like points of transition those points of origin for who you are today in the work you're doing now.

[00:24:02] Yeah so one of the like one of the big things that made me like really start to walk away from evangelicalism was under oath.

[00:24:15] The hard core ban or post hard core I guess they're post hard core.

[00:24:20] Screamo if you're nasty whatever.

[00:24:25] And like so they broke up for like 10 years right and then they got back together.

[00:24:33] Like 2018 maybe somewhere around there and they released a music video where they swore and like the evangelical circles just like lost their mind and I was at the point of like I don't care I don't care for somebody swear.

[00:24:49] So that's not a big deal.

[00:24:52] I mean, I should probably qualify like I was still very conservative at this point I was going to like a vineyard where I felt like I was liberal you know how people know how people have been vineyards feel like they're liberal but really they're not they just you know drink coffee.

[00:25:09] Yes, I know exactly like I can like I get identify exactly what you're saying with such little specificity.

[00:25:18] Exactly yeah but yet like under or under oath swore and a song and people were like losing their minds and like I actually like lots of touch with under oath even though like they were one of my favorite bands.

[00:25:37] And especially while they're broken up I didn't really care but I didn't know all like this backstory where Spencer was supposedly on drugs and like people were like trying to cancel them back then.

[00:25:50] This this whole like backstory and then after they broke up he ended up having a drug problem but he didn't necessarily whenever like years being accused of it anyways basically like looking at his life in like evangelicalism.

[00:26:06] Basically just cast him out because he had an issue with drugs and it just it didn't sit right with me like no wonder no wonder why this guy doesn't want to be christian anymore do you see how you're treating him like this.

[00:26:25] This this is an actual person we need to stop like platforming people and trying to make them into some perfect like Jesus character behind a microphone like he's a real person he has real struggles like let's say let's get over this any evangelicalism but just no.

[00:26:45] Like because because he swore like it was done and so that really kind of showed some cracks in it and this is like all wild Trump was you know president and the I mean I wish I could say that watching Trump be president was like that breaking point for me it really wasn't that came later.

[00:27:08] It took me it took me most of the Trump presidency to actually realize that like how bad this actually was um yeah so like I kind of I still I realized that it's like it's 2024 now and so it's been a few more years but still feel like I'm like new to the more progressive circles just because like it seems like the Trump presidency really wasn't that long ago even though it's.

[00:27:38] Then almost four years which is weird yeah it's I think it's because we're still living in the shadow of the Trump presidency and then we have the foreboding doom of perhaps like what whether it will have to go through that again it's this yeah um i'm curious and you've talked about the you know what the response was to just swearing I see you handling.

[00:28:08] All kinds of dialogue and discussions with Christians with conservative Christians that are super hateful on Twitter and the funny thing is I feel like they'll try to get you into like a theological tailspin in you end up owning them because you you often know more about theology than people that are trying to like hey what about this.

[00:28:28] Checkmate you're like actually no like it but and so I'm curious like how has that kind of as you started transbandalical and as you've started engaging in those discussions um is it just do you have like a strategy that you use is there like a certain type of conversation that you will engage in and then some that you absolutely won't or how is that process been for you as you've been engaging with some of the ridiculous things that have been happening.

[00:28:57] Since I feel like people have far more than just swearing that they're trying to attack now.

[00:29:04] Yeah yeah yeah the when it comes to like dealing with things I mean I do I have rules actually that I set for myself and actually just that one for myself earlier today just because I realized that I was actually not living up to what I actually feel like I should stand for and I'll share that in a moment but.

[00:29:27] Like I decided I like no longer quote tweeting to own somebody I'll quote quote quote tweet somebody that I like and like boost their post or something but i'm not going to quote tweet to own anybody.

[00:29:43] I don't I don't go into individual people's comments and to try to own them if it's a person like a political person or somebody like who's it's a platform not a person like i'll do that to me that feels different um but yeah whatever comes to my post I don't post anything that I don't know what evangelicals are.

[00:30:13] They're going to say to it like I was evangelical enough I was on that side I was the one saying that stuff just as long as they have like I know what they're going to say and so nothing really surprises me.

[00:30:27] And I like to me I find it funny whenever they start to say awful and and hateful things because you like you know that you know that you beat them theologically at that point um and so so.

[00:30:45] Yeah I just lost my turn of thought it was like I don't get into any arguments that I don't know where it's going but also use a lot of satire like and I know like I set people up to like show the show the fact that they are inconsistent or.

[00:31:03] Like just the fact that they don't know they don't know the history of theology like most people don't actually know the fact that original sin and the fall isn't like a Christian belief per se it was created by Augustine which was like over 300 years later in like in reference to to that Jesus was further away from or obviously was further away from Jesus then.

[00:31:33] Bernie Sanders is from the founding of the United States like the thing about the family fathers and what we think of with Bernie Sanders and like how we went from the start of the United States to him yeah there's been more time between Jesus and Augustine.

[00:31:49] Augustine was even doing biblical theology he was doing allegorical and he was expanding on biblical theology that's why he comes up with the stuff that actually isn't backed up by the Bible because he had concepts that he believed were true because he was kind of this like Roman from Africa.

[00:32:07] And so he was dealing with his culture and he was dealing with his own struggles because he believed he was awful because of his sexuality and so he made up theology that we just assume is correct.

[00:32:22] On like most people, I mean I have friends that are like why are you still Christian and I'm just like I'm pretty sure it's just the autism and the fact that theology a bit of whole studies is like that thing that I focus on I can't focus like I absolutely have to study the Bible.

[00:32:45] But Bible and it's awful because it puts me in the same category with some really awful people but at the same time like I really enjoy it.

[00:32:55] Like I really enjoy thinking through theology and reading the Bible and reading Greek and Hebrew.

[00:33:02] I'm not good at air make so that's just something I got to deal with for those couple sections of the Bible that are written air make but yeah like I like I know that the average person doesn't know more than me.

[00:33:20] I know that the average pastor doesn't know more than me simply because I know I know like my obsession with biblical studies is actually like probably close to the unhealthy side.

[00:33:36] Yeah, I know that's kind of sounds like I don't I feel kind of narcissistic to frame it that way it's just.

[00:33:45] Well, I think I think one thing that's interesting and I'd love to hear you kind of like like pivot and chat a little bit more about is like for somebody who had been through so much study and continues to study even after changing your mind about like how you perceive.

[00:34:03] Like theology in the Bible and Christianity like do you feel like those things have gone in phases and what was that like was there a point where you're like I'm beginning to see like myself and you know the way in which I am looking at the world and gender and sexuality as changing versus like the way your relationship with theology in the Bible was changing.

[00:34:31] And did those things correlate and I'd be curious to hear like what your experience was in terms of like kind of like going from the way that the institutions that you kind of were raised up in.

[00:34:44] We're processing and thinking about these things to you know the areas that you are still continuing to like talk about and work within these ideas in a very different way.

[00:34:56] Yeah, I've said this before probably on go home Bible but I don't really see I don't really see like what I went through as necessarily deconstruction.

[00:35:09] I don't think these deconstruction is a good term for me like I just felt like I was learning that I assumed that you know I assumed what I learned in Sunday school and at youth group.

[00:35:24] I was like what people knew and then you know I went to Bible college I learned more and then I went to seminary I learned more and I just kept learning and the more that I started learning.

[00:35:37] Like the more more perspectives that I got and so it wasn't like to me it didn't feel like you know I'm walking away from anything to me it felt a lot more like oh I'm just growing in this area.

[00:35:52] And so it still never really felt like I've walked away from anything.

[00:35:59] I mean really like I know that my like my belief in like God and stuff is not it's not sure as what it was before like my sodium has led me to like no that I there's I have no way of knowing if they're if there is a God right.

[00:36:21] But like every step was slow and through studying and so to me it didn't feel like I was walking away.

[00:36:30] Like even when you put like Christian Christian language to it if felt like I was pursuing God like that that's what I felt like the entire time part of that was like I gave myself permission to be like

[00:36:49] if it's if one thing about the Bible that we're supposed to be taught and I know that evangelicals have walked us back quite a bit over the last couple of years is that God is supposed God supposedly loves us right.

[00:37:05] I love how you're like you're like we it's slow to get there but apparently he loves people you wouldn't know if I watch the commercials about the Christianity.

[00:37:20] Yeah and I you know I just thought if if God does actually love us then my pursuit of trying to understand God more wherever it takes me if that's an honest pursuit and it takes me away from from the beliefs I was given.

[00:37:37] It's got actually going to condemn me to hell for that for yeah like wholeheartedly pursuing and I was like no and and that's what kind of gave me permission to like

[00:37:49] become a firme to accept trans people and all this was before I actually realized I was trans myself like I didn't even gotten to the place where I even had language to describe my experience as a trans person.

[00:38:08] Yeah so like I even gotten to the part of self reflection yet but I worked to that part kind of on my own so it yeah it never felt like walking away it was always it to me always felt like a pursuit of something.

[00:38:27] Yeah I really think that that framing is important and like I really enjoy the way that you frame.

[00:38:38] The pursuit and the kind of like them melting away of the structures as maybe unnecessary pieces of the framework and a clarity.

[00:38:52] How have you seen I'm very curious of like the people like you talk about doing only fans you talk about doing you know strip theology like how is it to work and to like I guess be in circles where people are interested in hearing about theology and also in this part of you know culture using air quotes that like

[00:39:21] is I was always told is like worldly right to only fans and stripping and sex work and like it's for me it makes total sense because I love sex and sexuality and I also have to love theology but I kind of think myself as like a pretty niche person but it feels like you connect with a lot of people who live in that space.

[00:39:48] Yeah it's it has been interesting I when I started combining my only fans tough and anthology.

[00:39:59] I really wasn't sure how it was going to go I mean I was still kind of trying to find my my niche.

[00:40:07] And so that was like I'm going to try this and ended up ended up kind of being successful I got some new fans like right away but I think one of the biggest things for me is like

[00:40:24] we were taught so much that what we were taught to be broken people we were taught that our sexuality is this thing for the bedroom it's for it's for your spouse only that it doesn't it doesn't even belong to you sexuality doesn't belong to you.

[00:40:41] Women are told this more than men but depending on your peer to culture circle you might have been men might have been taught that there's sexuality belongs to their wife or future wife actually because even if you're not married you're expecting to get married and you're saving yourself for them right.

[00:40:58] So there's this entire part of who you are as a human being that you're supposed to just shut off and not connect up to anything else that's completely ridiculous like you are creating broken people.

[00:41:13] So to me like integrating sexuality with something that i'm interested in which is theology like that just seems to me that seems like a natural like healing thing to just be like yeah this is me I am a sexual being I have a sexuality I also enjoy theology like there's no reason why these have to be separate like these are parts of what make me mean and so it's just.

[00:41:43] Just put it out there and be like hey pay me some money while I do these things that I enjoy doing yeah I mean that's really that's really what it was and and i've been able to encounter people that I like it's it's healing for people to have.

[00:42:01] To have a adult content space that is theological because there's just so much harm like theology has caused so much harm to a lot of people sexuality and and there's I think there's been a lot of healing and some of the stuff that i've done just.

[00:42:20] Just because I am willing to be like hey I do theology and I get naked on the internet and that's that's fine and I think I think that's freeing to actually accept the fact that.

[00:42:37] Like all this can exist in the same space because it should yeah absolutely I love that and and I feel like there's a set of rules that we were given for sex like you're saying and why who gave us those rules and where did they come from but.

[00:42:53] I guess I also am curious because you know I think that as we move into progressive spaces there are people that have a limitation on like I guess i'm wondering if you gotten pushback from even in progressive spaces and i'm asking this from the perspective of like I know this will air after our content warning event.

[00:43:19] But one of the reasons for that event is because I feel like there's a limitation to some some of the expansive conversations we can have about sexuality and sex on this side of deconstruction or evolving faith or you know kind of shifting mindset.

[00:43:36] And are there people that are like I don't know just have you experienced any kind of questions or pushback from folks that you otherwise would expect like hey I thought we kind of lined up and had similar values but now.

[00:43:53] But now at least it's taken it too far.

[00:43:55] I think because I started only fans so early in creating trans vential that I didn't really encounter too much of that but I do encounter a lot of people that are like.

[00:44:12] Where they're unsure of how they feel on.

[00:44:17] On adult content really they're all how they feel about porn is really what it is and it's not that they are against what i'm doing it's more that like they aren't necessarily there or it's not necessarily for them and to me like.

[00:44:37] Honestly I don't care like I mean not in like dismissive way but like.

[00:44:44] Like healing from the type of sexuality we were given is such a personal process it's something that everybody has to figure out on their own that if if you're not there i'm that's cool that's cool with me if you're never if that's never going to be your thing.

[00:45:06] However like I don't care whether or not you are going and supporting my content i mean that'd be nice everyone listen to this podcast going so subscribe to my all events.

[00:45:21] Like I don't necessarily care if that is is what you're doing but I do care if you are making it out of a restrictive environment and a restrictive culture that has taught you to hide your sexuality.

[00:45:36] Yeah I don't if if porn isn't your thing awesome that's that's awesome for you if porn is your thing that's awesome for you.

[00:45:45] Yeah, do it ethically like you know pay your pay your creators no no where if you can't trace back where your content is coming from just assume that's probably unethical so.

[00:45:59] Yeah like there's whenever it comes to this type of work like.

[00:46:07] Part of it is moving that needle as much as you can for for whoever because.

[00:46:13] Because like sexuality has been something that has been used to control so many people that it really needs to be undermined if.

[00:46:27] Taking control of your sexuality is an inherent act of subversion is an inherent act of subversion within our culture that uses sexuality to control people the moment you're able to take that back for yourself that is the moment that you.

[00:46:43] Are able to say that those people no longer control me and I think that's great however that looks like for you is is great for you.

[00:46:56] I think that there is a one thing that I that that I feel like becomes a common.

[00:47:06] I guess point in conversations around expanding understandings of sexuality and you know really gender is become a big part of that conversation to.

[00:47:18] To is where you get this idea of autonomy and like we like I think the way that I grew up the narratives of conservative evangelicalism like really liked to minimize or erase autonomy entirely and so it's like oh well this is the way things are this is the way boys are and this is the way girls are and this is the way sexuality works and the way marriage looks and whatever it's just like these fixed systems.

[00:47:47] And I think we kind of sometimes bring that into at least the way I grew up queer apologetics as well like we're like oh well it's fixed you know you have this like born this way narrative which i'm not trying to negate that but I'm.

[00:48:02] I am trying to say that it's oftentimes we like to compartmentalize queer apologetics in a way that just like kind of fits into that same lack of autonomy narrative and then as you get into conversations about you know things like polyamory gender fluidity non binary identities bisexuality it then all bring it up.

[00:48:32] And then it breaks down because you know i'll have people sometimes come into me and they're like oh well like you know i'm not judging the polyamorous thing like it's okay for you and I've talked about it's just not for me and it's like would you say that to a gay person would you be like hey yeah I like I thought about being gay and then I like you know like no you wouldn't because like you.

[00:48:57] Somehow compartmentalized that aspect of their sexuality is something that they can't control or they didn't choose where they don't have a autonomy over and yet we have more judgment in terms of the way people express your sexuality in these ways that we didn't deem.

[00:49:14] More of like a lifestyle choice am I making sense and do you feel like there is like yeah any aspect of that that you have more thoughts on because I'd be curious to hear your perspective from the work you're doing.

[00:49:27] I mean it's gonna expand a little bit outside of my work specifically but we have a.

[00:49:37] Okay you're just gonna be a long rant i'm ready for it I just had a lot of hoping to make it make it from the beginning to the point on to make at the end which is a very long line.

[00:49:50] Okay so since the enlightenment so we're going all the way back to there.

[00:49:59] European culture decided that they had reached the peak of civilization that they understood God they understood humanity they understood how to become a civilized society and was able to then view all other cultures as unscivilized if they were outside of the European mentality at all.

[00:50:22] Part of this meant that they believed that they came to the pit of me of human sexuality and gender and this is why it's very European to be homophobic and transphobic like they as a culture Europeans were like no but like this is not a civilized thing.

[00:50:42] Then Europeans just like decided to colonize and they came in contact with other cultures that had different understandings of sexuality and gender and marriage and instead of being like oh wow this is really blurring my mind they pulled a white supremacy and were like genocide and slavery and.

[00:51:02] Part of it like and forced their white understanding of gender and sexuality and marriage onto basically everyone that they colonized.

[00:51:14] Now like jump forward to where we're at today where we still have this Eurocentric European mentality where we still have this understanding that civilization is based on heteronormativity.

[00:51:30] And we're born into that like this is this is the thing where like people get upset about like queer people supposedly grooming children like no did you grow up in the in the 80s and 90s like queer people were still the butt of the jokes like you would get beat up if you're a queer like it was literally sometimes physically ingrained into that if you are outside of the heteronormative world.

[00:51:59] The heteronormative that you were wrong like you were different you deserved to be bullied on the playground like it is ingrained in us to think of everything inside these categories.

[00:52:14] That is hard to break out of.

[00:52:18] So whenever we start to realize our queerness or realize that say monogamous marriage might not be for us because it's not like monogamous marriage is actually not a very popular thing throughout human history.

[00:52:36] We got there through a few different means but mostly because of the marriage between Christianity and Roman society.

[00:52:45] And like it just completely ignores the fact that not everyone is built to be monogamous not everyone is built to be heterosexual not everyone is built to be cisgender.

[00:52:58] So to break out of that understanding of like if you're in this category then you are like if you're assigned female birth then you're going to be a girl like having those categories is something really hard to break out of.

[00:53:13] So we do end up having an issue especially like speaking specifically to the trans community.

[00:53:23] I've been out I transitioned in 2020 so I've been transitioning for four years.

[00:53:33] There is a difference between someone who just came out and just started transitioning then somebody who's been transitioning for three plus years.

[00:53:43] And like we all go through our phases will go through a phase where like where we don't like drag queens because we feel like that's somehow encroaching on like trans women spaces.

[00:53:59] And it's really just because part of that we're breaking out of those categories that we were told to put every single thing into.

[00:54:09] And as a process it's such a big process because you're talking about you're talking about dismantling the culture and society that you were given you're dismantling literally the language that you're giving because English is a Christian language like it might not have started that way.

[00:54:27] Before all the English but English has become in a Christian language we are literally given Christian ideas in the way that we think.

[00:54:38] And so breaking out of all these things it is a long process and the more that we're able to deal with it and work through it and recognize that hey humanity humanities fucking creative like every single person is completely.

[00:54:56] Completely different but like like I said enlightenment European understanding was people are not different people are the same and if you do everything the same you'll have a functioning society that doesn't actually work.

[00:55:15] But taking this further now now we have the issue of especially trans people being the target for political legislation where unfortunately we end up having to play by these very strict categories and the rules that uphold them and so like.

[00:55:39] We have to say like we have to go and say yeah children are like children are trans in the US that is true children are trans but.

[00:55:49] At the same time if somebody is like somebody is like a fucking adult is like you know what I don't want to be a man anymore I want to transition they don't have dysphoria they don't have whatever like who fucking cares it's a person like let them do it it's not wrong there is absolutely nothing wrong with transitioning.

[00:56:08] If if somebody wants to be is has always been heterosexual and they're like you know what I don't think I was born gay but you know maybe I'm going maybe I could enjoy this good on them like.

[00:56:20] The problem is is like because queerness is so much out of the heteronormative um and because it's so much in the public eye it feels like we have to pretend like we've we fit into heteronormativity and a lot of ways.

[00:56:37] Just so you know we don't get genocide it well is really what we're we're at and so it's it's such.

[00:56:45] It's so frustrating because uh because we have to play by the pressers rules is what it comes down to yeah and it forces people into those categories as binary's you know I mean I think about like you know.

[00:57:00] Bisexual folks I've watched a couple.

[00:57:06] Man go through like a being socialized from a very early age as a gay man to like I think I might be bisexual and like the the culture of monosexuality that's like no you have to be gay or straight you have to you know because we trade off this like.

[00:57:26] Aspect of like oh once I like identify as gay.

[00:57:30] I can like oh okay well the straight guys may not accept me but I get accepted in this one category and like i'm safe to hang out with their girlfriends and I'm you know but the second I'm bisexual now it's like oh now i'm not safe to hang out with the girls i'm not trusted like I would be the gay friend because now i'm bisexual and i'm a threat.

[00:57:54] But i'm also not accepted by straight men because i'm bisexual and i'm gay so like we we force people to fit into these you know binary categories.

[00:58:07] Many times because of safety because of like you know well this is where i'm going to.

[00:58:15] To be able to find safety in a system that is kind of rigged up in a way that really hasn't made space for.

[00:58:26] The complexity of queerness.

[00:58:29] Yeah and a lot of ways it like studies have shown people are fluid like all the time they they're there may be people there on one extreme or the other on a given topic.

[00:58:44] Like there might actually be people that are just fully straight.

[00:58:49] There may actually you you heard it here there may be straight people i that's the best.

[00:58:54] Coming out stories of the straight people that's that there might be straight people the jury still out that's going to be the title of this episode go ahead.

[00:59:04] That that's great but but seriously like part of the problem is because of social like because of social understandings and.

[00:59:13] The culture that we live in people that are a little bit by probably aren't going to like explore that part of themselves because it's not safe.

[00:59:23] America is still not a safe place to you know see if maybe you could be into into a guys or girls like or non binary people like state still have gay panic laws where.

[00:59:41] Gay people and trans people can be killed because somebody claims that they were freaked out because they were gay or trans like those laws still exist.

[00:59:56] And chances are we could actually get more i'm hoping i'm hoping not like but things like things are literally getting worse especially for trans people right now.

[01:00:08] And actually is the reality of where we live in and but the way going back to what i was saying about fluidity fluidity like because of hindrances people are scared to explore what they might be into now and you know what.

[01:00:29] Maybe you're into men right now but they're like three months three months from now maybe you're not anymore like my interest in men like changes all the time to where like why why would anybody like a man touch them to like.

[01:00:46] You know I could really get railed right now that would be awesome.

[01:00:52] That's the specter like i'm right there somewhere in the middle of that too yeah.

[01:00:57] But but like the thing is people are fluid in like life events things going on your different relationships like how you present yourself it is constantly changing and the fact that we give ourselves categories.

[01:01:15] Act is limiting which makes me have like kind of like a love hate relationship with all of the like LGBTQ plus I like keeping adding things like yes we need to recognize the different people exist about same time like.

[01:01:33] If you're a sexual but end up becoming more fluid and like maybe you become more gray sexual later like we got to have space to let people move in and out of these labels.

[01:01:46] Because people do change i probably like I would have said yeah what four years ago that I would never be interested in it i would never be interested in a man.

[01:02:01] Part of that was because I would not have get have given myself permission to even go there because of my conservative upbringing.

[01:02:11] But because I changed like my sexuality changed because because I found myself to recognize I was trans like.

[01:02:24] That has allowed me to kind of move back and forth between like the type of femininity that I want to display like people do not just sit in their labels people are constantly changing and in that to me like it's a beautiful aspect of humanity it's so like humanity is so creative that it's ridiculous.

[01:02:49] We have we have a religion that puts people in such tiny tiny boxes.

[01:02:55] But to me like just accepting like trying to break down those barriers of like thinking of people in different labels is freeing for you and it's freeing for other people because they know that they're able to just be themselves.

[01:03:12] Yeah and and that that sexuality in general like kind of going back to the very first part of what you were saying about like redeeming kind of just like sexuality in general was definitely the way I grew up kind of framed as this bad thing this problem to be solved right your sexuality was an issue and the solution was getting married at 18 you know whatever but it was like.

[01:03:40] It was framed as like a problem to be solved or something to be you know addressed rather than something to explore embrace Megan go ahead well and I know like you mentioned the political landscape in the legislation and I think because something shifted where we went from like okay there's things I never talk about and that's religion and politics like in like the workplace or in bars or in public or even at Thanksgiving and with family.

[01:04:10] And and that shifted I think with Trump because I feel like he kind of you know was so outspoken about I want people to be able to have permission to hate people and actually I want you know and like then I think Christians got on that bandwagon of like like and I was curious because I just came across there was some conversation on Twitter and you might have seen it about a tweet that says but if I teach my kids to uphold God's word.

[01:04:40] God's law and righteousness then by today's moral standards they won't be considered lovely people they'll be called misogynist and transphobic and homophobic and unloving and bigoted and even racist and so there's this like thing that Christians have created to say like oh we're being you know it's that persecution complex of like we're not like we're not allowed to just you know believe the got like be a Christian without being accused of being hateful and there's so much that goes into that and I'm sorry.

[01:05:10] I that needs to be unpacked but I'm curious just at the kind of the overall level of having seen this transformation as you're also transitioning like what what are your thoughts about how this is happening because I've had people say to me

[01:05:26] I feel like you're just a little too political and in like personal relationships and I'm like this isn't about politics this is about humanity and this is about humans and I'm curious like how you approach that and what your perspective is of all of that shift.

[01:05:42] Yeah so that's such a complex question there because there's so many different factors.

[01:05:54] I do want to say that the thing that Trump did like almost masterfully was I mean he played white he played racism and white supremacy on racist and white supremacist people because because white supremacy has actually ingrained in our culture that if we see a fraction of people that aren't white

[01:06:23] like less than 50 I think that it's like 17% or I think that's women like if you see 17% of a crowd is women then your mind registers it as 50%

[01:06:40] and that's true across the board with minorities and so we had Obama who was who was a black president right and so white people had to see a black president for eight years

[01:07:01] and coming from those conservative circles like the racism was grown like it was always there they just didn't say it out loud like they were starting to say it out loud.

[01:07:15] Trump came on the scene it was like basically gave people permission to say it out loud and in you know in some way like it is he it's so it is like a positive thing to say how you feel out loud like that helps you get it out that is actually therapeutic.

[01:07:38] That can also be manipulated into causing a lot of terrible things so what Trump was able to do was take the dominant culture the culture that has had power 99.9% in the time and make made them feel like they had been marginalized for the past eight years.

[01:08:01] White people are not marginalized in the United States like hands down like that is not a thing but Trump was able to make them feel like they were the marginalized people and with that gave permission to say all of these things because then they were able to feel like they were the victims right and people.

[01:08:28] Like they are apparently there's the sense of security that if you're a victim that you can just say whatever you want which probably means that you aren't a real victim because most victims are actually like face other issues that's neither here nor there but Trump was able to instill that victim mentality within the white culture.

[01:08:54] Then we then we like I said before like white supremacy and heteronormativity like those two things are married together in Western in Western culture like we forced heteronormativity on other cultures.

[01:09:11] So that plays into everything that Trump like everything that Trump was about because Obama on your Obama same sex marriage became a thing transgender people serving in the military became a thing so now now heterosexual people feel like well not all obviously but these especially religious white heterosexual people feel like they are marginalized even further because their beliefs are being served.

[01:09:41] So that's what I'm going to step down right like this is the narrative that Trump spun it like it to me it's hard to it's hard to look at Trump and think that he is smart and stuff but he actually did this like really well so I don't know if it was an accident or what or

[01:10:01] like it's hard for me to believe that he actually thought it out and did an on purpose but it still happened.

[01:10:07] Yeah, move forward to where we are today we are we are post Obama we are post Trump but we still have Trump era judges

[01:10:21] and the fact of the matter is the thing so conservative politics have always been about well the thing that has unified them has been controlling other people's bodies

[01:10:38] and that's like that's just essentially historical it was segregation right segregation ended and the moral majority decided that hey we have to find something else because segregation isn't going to be the political thing to unite us became abortion

[01:10:56] the Southern Baptist Convention they were pro abortion up until the moral majority like abortion what abortion was not seen as a Christian verse non-Christian thing up until I don't know when was that was 70s or 80s

[01:11:18] so that became the thing that the unifying thing for conservative politicians and in like even my parents would be like I will vote for whoever is opposed to abortion right even though even though most of the presidents have not had any say over like abortion laws because it's the states that actually make those laws

[01:11:43] and because for the longest time Roe v. Wade was still in place like the president and the president had no say in it

[01:11:53] but control over abortion and control over women's bodies was a unifying factor

[01:12:01] and before that they want to control over black bodies over bodies of color can you see it I don't know

[01:12:10] obviously then now we hit 2020 and Roe v. Wade is overturned right and there has to be something to be fought in the legislative system that controls bodies

[01:12:25] because just because of the where we're at within tearing down heteronorantivity like we are actually tearing down the American family system

[01:12:42] and that's okay like the American family system was built on the subjugation of women right like it was built on heterosexual relationships

[01:12:53] it was built on women not being able to get a no fault divorce like that is American marriage American family values

[01:13:03] let's tear that down and it's working like those values are going away and that's actually a good thing

[01:13:10] but some people see that as a threat to themselves so because conservative politicians need somebody to try to control

[01:13:20] and because a group that is a minority is an easy target and because there was growing acceptance leading up to 2020 it became the new target

[01:13:36] and the truth of the matter is there is not enough trans people to like stand up to these laws that are being passed

[01:13:46] so it honestly relies on cis people to step up and be allies but at the same time

[01:13:56] like do you know how difficult it is to go down to your capital and like speak to the politicians

[01:14:03] it's actually kind of hard because they will bring up a lot or proposed bills at random times and give you like 12 hours notice

[01:14:17] that they're going to be voting on the next day like things like this have happened or goes to a vote in the state senate

[01:14:26] the same day it leaves the state house and most people aren't able to just like take off work

[01:14:34] and be like hey I oppose this you're my senator listens me like it's crafted in such way to where politicians are able to hide the fact that people are against these laws

[01:14:51] and statistically speaking like statistically speaking most people are against laws on transgender care

[01:15:02] that's not true in every state there's place like Idaho or I don't know North Dakota where like there might be a majority that support trans healthcare bands

[01:15:15] it's not actually popular but it is something to unify the political landscape and so that's where we're at is trans people are the scapegoat for politicians

[01:15:28] so they sound like they're a unified platform that is trying to save America

[01:15:34] yeah and even where it is quote unquote popular I mean I would say that it's it is that way because of gross levels of propaganda and misinformation

[01:15:46] and you know like and panic campaign yeah yeah it's panic campaigns I mean my like and we've talked about this in the show agonizing but like my parents I were homophobic and conservative and Christian and very white

[01:16:01] and subtly racist my whole life but like not vocal not extremists I remember you know I've told the store on the podcast many times I would go over to my grandparents house and try out my mom's old dresses that she had when she was a kid

[01:16:16] and we put on makeup and I got a pink easy makeup in when I was a kid and no one no one freaked out everyone was okay and now my mom sees somebody my son wearing a hair clip

[01:16:27] and she's like oh my god that's we got to be careful and what's going to happen you know and it's like panic and I'm like mom what the fuck like what the fuck like why like who told you to be scared somebody has like you know people have crafted these propaganda campaigns

[01:16:42] and so like even where there is you know like you said maybe public support for these types of bands it's not people that actually like like know anything about any of these topics

[01:16:55] the people have just been sold a bill of scary goods

[01:17:00] and it's ironic because it tends to be in places where generally speaking people want smaller government but people who want smaller government apparently want big government for other people

[01:17:16] really what it comes down to

[01:17:18] I mean it's the whole like my body my choice that the anti-faxors were grabbing on to and I have so many questions about it

[01:17:26] my body my choice my body my choice and your body my choice basically just by guys

[01:17:31] well we're kind of getting up to time but we think I feel like we could talk for another hour

[01:17:38] but you mentioned some places that people can find your work is there anything else

[01:17:43] that I think you said sub-stack and only fans and Twitter any other places

[01:17:47] but people can find you and check out the work that you do

[01:17:53] I mean I've gone in and claimed trans-banded jokal on almost every platform

[01:18:00] but that is a minimum there

[01:18:03] Twitter sub-stack and only fans is where are you really gonna find me

[01:18:10] yeah definitely reach out to me there and honestly my deems are open

[01:18:17] I do have boundaries if you're DM me on Twitter for sex work stuff

[01:18:23] like I will probably tell you to send a tip before I respond

[01:18:31] but if you have theological questions and things like that like I'm always open

[01:18:37] yeah absolutely we'll put links to everything in the show notes and yeah thank you so much

[01:18:42] I can't wait like Megan said this episode will be out after the event

[01:18:46] but as of now as of a recording this we're gonna get to hang out next week

[01:18:50] and I'm really excited for the content warning event

[01:18:53] it's gonna be awesome it's gonna be a blast

[01:18:56] it is I'm like really the comport to it

[01:18:58] all right awesome well yeah thanks so much

[01:19:04] and I guess until we see you soon

[01:19:08] yeah absolutely see ya

[01:19:15] all right another episode an incredible guest

[01:19:19] we have a bunch more incredible guests coming up on the show

[01:19:24] and we're really excited that we've been back on a rhythm

[01:19:30] we're for a few weeks we were like a lot was going on in life and so we weren't

[01:19:35] getting our Tuesday episodes out but I travel schedule was getting in the way

[01:19:39] but we changed our recording day and that helped a little bit so

[01:19:43] we're ahead of schedule now it feels good

[01:19:47] it means that our intros are usually like a week behind of whatever the current event

[01:19:53] is but we're a lot coming up so if you are just tuning in or a regular listen

[01:19:59] make sure you're following us around on social media so you can keep up with

[01:20:04] when we're putting out episodes

[01:20:08] like and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts that's super helpful on Spotify or Apple Podcasts

[01:20:13] and then we're thereafter pod on Twitter

[01:20:17] thereafter podcast on Instagram and threads

[01:20:20] and if you're wanting to get more involved in the community

[01:20:23] and help support what we're doing through the show

[01:20:25] patreon.com slash thereafter pod

[01:20:28] is a great way to do that

[01:20:30] I'm courland coffee I'm the only courland coffee on the internet that I'm aware of

[01:20:34] extremely Googleable better for better or for worse

[01:20:38] you can find me in all the places using my name

[01:20:41] Megan where can people find connect and keep up with you

[01:20:46] I am at the Persuading Light on Twitter Instagram

[01:20:51] oh all the places I haven't opened Blue Sky in a really long time

[01:20:56] and I'm sorry I know you were a avid skater there for a while

[01:21:01] I love that app but it's like I do it I'm either like

[01:21:06] several hours a day or I don't open it for weeks

[01:21:09] it's like if I am with threads

[01:21:12] It's like I'm living on the app or I forget exists

[01:21:15] it's very hard to be

[01:21:17] and that's part of like it not having an algorithm

[01:21:20] and being more of a real-time feed like if you want to get the things out of it

[01:21:24] you have to be on it

[01:21:26] and then once you're not on you've got about it

[01:21:28] so but I do love Blue Sky I post pictures of my ass sometimes

[01:21:31] on there

[01:21:32] I wanna see that that's usually where that goes

[01:21:36] nice

[01:21:38] alright well I guess that's a wrap until next time

[01:21:42] until next time

[01:21:47] bye