098 - Brandon Flanery | Stumbling - A Sassy Story About Coming Out of Evangelicalism

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:11] Are you an alumnus of an evangelical college or university? Or have you ever wondered what

[00:00:17] attending or working at one of those schools is like? The Chapel Probation Podcast brings

[00:00:24] you the stories from students, faculty and administration who experienced all the racism,

[00:00:31] the queer phobia, the misogyny, and purity culture weirdness that are kind of the hallmarks

[00:00:37] of these schools. I'm Scott O'Chamoto, author of Asian American

[00:00:41] Apostate, losing religion and finding myself at an evangelical university which tells my

[00:00:47] story of teaching English at an evangelical school and realizing I didn't believe in God

[00:00:52] or the Bible anymore. I created Chapel Probation as a compliment to my book, but this podcast

[00:00:59] has become its own community of people who have stories of hurt and pain and stories

[00:01:05] of triumph during and after their time at evangelical schools. Some of the guests you've

[00:01:11] probably heard of, but most of them you probably haven't. But all the stories are

[00:01:17] incredible examples of surviving Christian schools and finding ourselves. You can find Chapel

[00:01:24] Probation wherever you listen to podcasts, and I hope you'll join us.

[00:01:30] All right.

[00:01:34] Okay. Welcome to the thereafter podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side

[00:01:41] of faith change. We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities and wander

[00:01:47] through what it looks like to live in the gray. In church we were told that life after

[00:01:52] leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism, but we've discovered quite

[00:01:57] the opposite. There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith

[00:02:04] who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:02:09] Come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism evolving faith

[00:02:15] and the life thereafter.

[00:02:19] Hey, hey. Another episode of the thereafter podcast, your hosts, Courtland and Megan here.

[00:02:36] Hi, Megan. Hey, how are you today? I'm doing wonderful. I ran a really long ethernet

[00:02:45] cord up into my office through my stairwell in my house to be as connected to the internet

[00:02:52] as I could to record this today and it feels great.

[00:02:57] And you're rocking the man bun. Is that an accurate depiction? Yeah, man bun top knot.

[00:03:03] You know, more of a boy bun. Boy with an eye, B-O-I, boy bun. But yeah, I really like

[00:03:14] it. However, my barber, the last time I got a haircut, edged up the line a little funny

[00:03:19] so that I do have these tiny little baby hairs that won't go up that aren't, you know,

[00:03:25] that just kind of stick out which I don't know. I don't know what he was doing. I gotta

[00:03:29] go back and get it fixed. You could probably solve that with like gel or something.

[00:03:33] I could. I could. I could probably get my beard trimmer and like, you know, go at it.

[00:03:38] But like I'm like even very careful about my beard because I just don't have steady

[00:03:43] hands. It's one of the reasons that I don't wear eye makeup more regularly because like

[00:03:48] I would love to embrace like the aspect of kind of like gender bending that like kind

[00:03:53] of I feel on the inside. But the two things that stop me is one like effort and two like

[00:04:02] steadiness of hand. Like I just don't think that I can last time I put on eyeliner, it

[00:04:08] was like a very fraught experience of like almost poking my eye out and lots of squiggly

[00:04:13] lines. Do you wear eye makeup, Megan? I do. I wear eyeliner and mascara but it's funny

[00:04:20] you say that because I, my 11 year old is starting to get it in makeup and had me put

[00:04:27] eyeliner on her and it was like a liquid pencil. And you have to be solid and straight.

[00:04:33] I mean, I have pretty steady hands and I still couldn't do it exactly and especially

[00:04:37] on somebody else. I can do it on myself but yeah, it's a talent. Yeah. Yeah. I need to

[00:04:44] just work on it more. It's the effort thing for me too. I was telling my partner the other

[00:04:51] day that like I think I would, if I enjoyed shopping more, I would dress way gay or like I

[00:04:57] just like I always see not that like you have to dress gay to like be gay or whatever like

[00:05:03] queerness isn't an aesthetic, etc, etc all the disclaimers but like like I see shit online and

[00:05:08] I'm like I want to wear a crocheted rainbow jumpsuit. Like but like how do I find it? Where do I

[00:05:15] like, how do I get it in my size and so I end up wearing a gray t-shirt and jeans every day

[00:05:21] because it's like I know the jeans that fit and a gray t-shirt is always going to look you know

[00:05:25] the way it looks. There you go. So there you go. Anyway, that was not a planned portion of the intro

[00:05:31] today but that's where we got. Yeah, we're good. No, we wanted, we have a guess that we're

[00:05:37] going to introduce. There's a couple things we want to talk about real quick. I guess it's,

[00:05:42] are we still, I guess we never really found another title besides TwitBits. I'm back on Twitter

[00:05:47] now so fuck it. We're TwitBits. It is. There we go. It can kind of be a fuck you to calling it X

[00:05:56] so we'll just, it'll be like a throwback. Throwback edition. What are we talking about man?

[00:06:02] Well, there was a lot of dialogue about the Reformation Project this week and if you're not familiar

[00:06:09] there's Matthew Vines who wrote God and Gay Christian about the Klopper passages. Has been controversial

[00:06:17] amongst queer Christians I would say, queer Christians right? I mean when you say it's that's

[00:06:24] kind of who he, his target audience is and he created the organization, the Reformation Project

[00:06:32] and but he sent out, you said it was an email right? Yeah, it was an email

[00:06:37] and then I think maybe the archive that email got posted to their blog or something. I eventually

[00:06:42] did see like a link to a web page that had the text from it but I believe that the original text

[00:06:49] was in an email. I think directly from Matthew Vines and I don't know if it was prompted by

[00:06:56] something but it was like pretty obviously trying to like delineate themselves from the like

[00:07:04] political left and like make sure that they were being clear that they had not been co-opted

[00:07:13] by queer theory and did not support queer theology but rather firmly embraced and affirmed

[00:07:24] the sanctity and authority of scripture and the affirming theology that can be clearly

[00:07:33] and objectively reasoned from that authoritative scripture that they affirm and believe in, right?

[00:07:40] So it was like it felt very just like like the gospel coalition does like gay. Like it's yeah

[00:07:50] it's evangelicalism for gay people. And just gay people like it feels like when you think about

[00:07:57] the inclusivity of the LGBTQ plus all of the letters in that acronym even extends,

[00:08:05] when you think about that I feel like Matthew Vines actively works to shrink that acronym into

[00:08:13] just a few letters right? Like I don't think he's inclusive of all of the queer identities and

[00:08:21] and I want, I mean we've already, I we've probably talked about it on the podcast because he has

[00:08:26] a fear stance against nominee and he also still holds to the ethic that you should be abstinent

[00:08:33] until you're married. So there's so many things that are still rooted in purity culture but it's

[00:08:39] kind of the part of and whiteness yes very much so. And but it's like what we were trying to combat

[00:08:47] at content warning by being able to elevate all these different you know, nominogamy, sex work,

[00:08:54] ethical porn, all of those different pieces and he's like no I mean anytime you see someone say that

[00:09:01] objective, objectively and authoritatively this is the clear stance biblical stance it's like

[00:09:10] that's already a red flag no matter what you're talking about. Yeah yeah and I don't I mean I'm

[00:09:14] obviously kind of paraphrasing you know definitely go look it up maybe I'll try to find

[00:09:20] whoever archived the text and put it in the show notes but I remember one piece of it was he

[00:09:28] said something about like we you know actively reject the idea that of queerness that just

[00:09:34] stands for anything that is non-normative right. This kind of idea that that in their view

[00:09:43] gay and lesbian people need to not get wrapped up in this idea of queerness that can just be this

[00:09:50] broad catch all for anything that's non-normative. When in reality like that is the beautiful

[00:09:57] expanse of the rainbow like the of queerness of all of the identities that fall under

[00:10:12] the LGBTQ plus IA to S acronym right ever expanding is that that the entire reality of what

[00:10:28] unifies us as a group of people is the idea that it is non-normative. The idea that it is counter

[00:10:37] the white euro-colonial ideal for human relationship and that bears itself out throughout

[00:10:53] lots of scripture which is why queer theology much of which influenced and found its way into

[00:11:03] Matthew vines own work is what it is right and so like he I don't he can't he can't separate

[00:11:14] himself out. It feels very much like just trying to it's got a lot of pick me energy it's got a

[00:11:20] lot of like we want its its respectability politics exactly it's hey you can be gay as long as

[00:11:27] you do it like the straights right and and it's hey you can be part of the church as long as

[00:11:33] you don't seem like you're too far out of the edge it's kind to me here's what I think

[00:11:40] I feel like for a long time people that were divorced were kind of like shun from the church

[00:11:44] and now everyone's gone through this like hey let's you know it probably because like the pastors

[00:11:51] were getting divorced you know like okay actually we change our stance right yeah the

[00:11:56] tithers the major tithers were getting divorced that's the big that's the big five-thin deal

[00:12:01] exactly and now it's like okay we have some gay people that actually don't cause too many

[00:12:08] problems so let's just and there's you know they still hold the purity culture and and they're not

[00:12:13] you know they don't make us think too much outside of our own narrow worldview and so we're just

[00:12:19] going to kind of create this new box that people can fit in and make it pretty containing but

[00:12:26] a little bit bigger than the old box and I just I mean it's just a new version of the old stuff right

[00:12:33] yeah yeah it's I mean it is this rigidity it's this binary it's this obsession with objectivity

[00:12:43] and it really it really is a fundamental misunderstanding of queerness as a whole right I mean it's

[00:12:52] the reason why I I won't say this person my name but I have a former pastor friend who came out

[00:13:03] late in life and since has become a pretty at least at one point when I unfollowed or blocked on

[00:13:12] platforms became a pretty vocal anti trans voice and and you're like what like how did you do

[00:13:23] like 15 20 years in the closet as a pastor and then come out and marry a man and then you're going to

[00:13:36] perpetuate anti trans talking points as a white cis gay man like you just you just you totally missed

[00:13:46] your entire experience like you totally missed the point of you know like like you are so hung up on

[00:13:54] your privilege and your supremacy um and yeah I mean the conversation about the privilege still held

[00:14:05] by cis white gay men is a difficult conversation but one that must be had and Matthew Vines I think

[00:14:12] is a great example of that yeah and I do think there's a piece and this might get us into a new topic

[00:14:19] here but I think there's a piece of naming that privilege when I mean we've talked about atheists

[00:14:25] and how they can still cause harm on the other side of things and we've talked about um I mean

[00:14:31] people know feminists turf like that like there's still people that I feel like leverage a marginalized

[00:14:38] identity but then yet once there starts to be some privilege within that start to cause harm and

[00:14:44] I know it's it was interesting because I had a tweet this week I think it was yesterday um I had

[00:14:50] had some a real visceral just negative interaction that had been really targeted to me that left me

[00:14:58] pretty upset it was really personal and it was about me being by um and somebody had some really

[00:15:03] nasty things to say about that and um one when I tweeted about it I I'll just say the tweet I

[00:15:11] said I recognize that bisexuality comes with privilege especially the ability to pass a straight

[00:15:16] and choose whether to navigate spaces openly or closeted but today experienced hate directly

[00:15:22] targeted at me explicitly for being by and in an extremely personal way and it was hard and the

[00:15:27] thing that was interesting was there were people on Twitter that were kind of upset with me for

[00:15:33] naming the privilege or trying to say like I you don't have to do that or you know and I

[00:15:40] I was my reaction was like I didn't do that because I thought I had to do it I did it because

[00:15:46] that's how that's what I believe to be true and I I I'm not trying to you know weaken my story

[00:15:54] or you know do something else but I'm just trying to express like I even said on Twitter like one

[00:16:02] of the reasons that it was so emotional for me was because it was completely unexpected and I'm not

[00:16:07] used to experiencing that level of hate and in order like I feel like I see that through the lens

[00:16:16] of like I have trans friends that can't safely use the restroom and we have black friends that

[00:16:23] can't drive in a car safely without worrying about getting pulled over just for being black

[00:16:30] and so it's important to me to have that juxtaposition to recognize like half the reason

[00:16:36] that this was such a hard experience was because it was surprising to me and that the reason like

[00:16:42] me experiencing hate as as a surprise is privilege because I don't see that on a day to day basis

[00:16:48] in the same way that other folks with marginalized identities do experiencing that regularly.

[00:16:56] Yeah, I mean I think that when we talk about things like privilege we have to realize

[00:17:04] that there isn't a singular binary perspective viewpoint vantage point definition about these

[00:17:15] things right and I think that that's when people bring up the idea of buy privilege right which

[00:17:24] specifically said that way I do understand where the visceral reaction like oh there isn't buy

[00:17:30] privilege you don't have buy privilege because there is a lot of things that come along with bisexuality

[00:17:36] in terms of buy erasure and a lack of acceptance by both the straight community and many gay communities

[00:17:47] dating in a world where now both groups of people have reason to be suspect or hold you at arms

[00:17:57] length like there are dissident vanages I guess if we're going to say about that reality and

[00:18:05] that identity however there are also in some contacts through some vantage points benefits like

[00:18:18] privileges right like I am in a when you are in a heterosexual passing relationship there is

[00:18:27] privilege that comes with that there is privilege that comes with being you know passable with a

[00:18:37] binary gender right like they're like it doesn't mean that binary transness is somehow you know privileged

[00:18:46] but there are privileges that come with certain realities you know the fact that I

[00:18:54] previous to 2014 or whenever the landmark Supreme Court ruling I could marry my

[00:19:02] partner that I'm married to because it wasn't illegal right I think that is a privilege

[00:19:09] that I that I have and so like I just think that oftentimes when we get into these conversations

[00:19:17] there is a lack of like discussion around the nuance of these things and the importance of talking about

[00:19:29] where my areas of privilege overlap with areas of marginalization and yeah and I go ahead

[00:19:38] that came up on that thread too because somebody said where you said privilege I would call that

[00:19:43] erasure like by erasure but it was really like you just really spoke I think well to both sides of

[00:19:51] it because then other people were like it's kind of both and because you can benefit from the privilege

[00:19:57] of being able to be straight passing in certain settings where you then don't experience that same

[00:20:03] level of targeted marginalization or hate but also there is an element of erasure that happens when

[00:20:13] you are straight passing and then people make assumptions and have misconceptions about you

[00:20:17] and so but it felt important to me because I feel like I feel that in my bones because I do have

[00:20:23] close friends that experience the world a lot differently than me and I see it through that lens

[00:20:28] and so I did want to name that and and I also think about like like I think about a lot of people

[00:20:35] that I know that are non-monogamous that so many people are closeted when they're non-monogamous

[00:20:41] because even if people that they're in social circles with accept their maybe queer identity

[00:20:49] if they're bi or if they're gay or lesbian like it or trans then if sometimes non-monogamy is like

[00:20:56] well I don't I don't know that's the little it's I mean it's kind of like what we talked about

[00:21:00] a content warning and so I also see that like there there's ways that people have to navigate

[00:21:08] to really kind of blend in or maybe are forced to navigate to blend in and and so there's just a lot

[00:21:14] happening there that I just wanted to express yeah it's complicated it's complicated and this isn't

[00:21:19] we've talked about this before with other guests and I think we maybe had a conversation with Benji

[00:21:25] about this whether it was on stage or content warning or not I don't remember but like we get into

[00:21:32] these these like oppression Olympics types of situations where it's like oh well the disadvantaged

[00:21:37] that comes with this identity is greater than the disadvantaged that comes with this identity and

[00:21:41] this identity can be hidden and this identity can cannot be I do get that like I think we got that

[00:21:50] and I think that we do need to do active work to and the types of bi orature that go hey you

[00:22:01] don't have to talk about your bisexuality all the time you're dating someone of the opposite

[00:22:05] gender just like those of us over here in this other camp are facing actual oppression and you're

[00:22:11] not really and so you need to check your bi privilege like that that that that framing can be

[00:22:18] harmful right but as a bisexual person saying hey I want to acknowledge that my experience

[00:22:27] has been privileged in certain ways because of how my identity gets expressed in culture

[00:22:36] and that has resulted in a very different experience for me especially as a cis white person

[00:22:43] who presents their gender or performs their gender in a certain way etc whatever

[00:22:50] whatever additional complexities you want to add to that we need to be careful to not jump on those

[00:22:56] people and go you're doing a bi orature you know like it's like no they're they're they're trying

[00:23:03] to hold their position within the greater context of human flourishing with nuance and with you

[00:23:12] know awareness that there's way more than their experience and again I don't know I don't

[00:23:22] know if I want to bring this up it it's one of the things that i've talked about on this podcast

[00:23:29] before I follow a lot of very fierce advocates for trans healthcare who are doing that from a

[00:23:43] position of detransition or retransition there's some new language around retransition

[00:23:51] and I think a lot of times those folks do have some really important perspective on how

[00:24:02] them trying to live out their reality of being detrans for whatever reason

[00:24:11] they are then used as ponds in this this kind of war over who's going to

[00:24:21] you know get the their say respected and I think bisexual folks oftentimes do end up as that

[00:24:29] kind of pawn also between these communities uh of of you know straight people tend to use

[00:24:39] bisexual people in various different ways straight men have used bisexual women

[00:24:44] uh in a lot of ways throughout culture that have been super harmful uh there's a lot of fear of

[00:24:54] dating someone who's bisexual in queer monosexual communities um and also that impacts the way

[00:25:04] a trans non-binary person just navigates any relationship right because if somebody is not

[00:25:11] fitting into these super-binary genders they can very quickly become or feel excluded from

[00:25:20] any of these super-binary communities um so it's just complicated yeah and I think yeah

[00:25:28] I think i'm so glad you brought in the broader perspective i also it was just interesting to me

[00:25:33] because there were there was a lot of support after I tweeted that out but like in that moment it felt

[00:25:40] like people were trying to like it's i'm like explaining a moment where I'd experienced hurt and

[00:25:47] people were like maybe you shouldn't have framed it that way and I was like try it like it was just

[00:25:54] interesting to to have that be the response and and I also just to kind of bring it back and I know

[00:25:59] we want to get into our interview um to Matthew Vines I had an interaction with somebody that was

[00:26:04] trying to defend Matthew Vines in that whole thing and they were their bios that they were

[00:26:10] progressive they went to a queer-framing church and the interesting thing about that interaction is

[00:26:15] you could tell I think um it was a woman i you could tell she had not listened to the queer

[00:26:22] community at all and she had not even paid attention to the Reformation Project at all because

[00:26:28] she was saying like I haven't seen them say anything about nominogamy and and if are you saying

[00:26:33] that if if i'm uncomfortable with nominogamy that that now you cancel me and it was like that's

[00:26:40] not even what we're saying at all you don't have to be nominogamous to be able to appreciate other

[00:26:46] people's agency and autonomy and on top of that forget all the the bad theology that Matthew

[00:26:53] Vines has we know people that have worked for the Reformation Project that say he's an awful

[00:27:00] terrible leader like he's just not a great person also and so there's that added layer of

[00:27:07] the the way that he runs organizations is problematic so yeah there's a lot happening there yeah

[00:27:13] well and and it comes back around to another thing we talked about a content morning of like

[00:27:18] we have to be willing to acknowledge that there is problematic forces that play within our

[00:27:24] marginalized communities there are people who are nominogamous who are taking advantage of

[00:27:29] again bisexual folks who are doing unicorn hunting who are doing a you know an unethical in the

[00:27:37] ethical non-monochemy world they're they're they're they're harming people there are

[00:27:43] I mentioned my my my former friend who is a gay man who is doing harm to the trans community

[00:27:49] like we have we cannot just go like oh well you know they're we're gonna cover up what they did

[00:27:56] the bad thing the harm that they caused because we'd rather you know talk about the harm

[00:28:00] the straight people are doing or that the monogamous people are doing or whatever like

[00:28:04] like wherever the harm is happening we have to talk about it and we have to to address it

[00:28:10] even if it's coming from inside the house yeah and because if we cover up people that are

[00:28:16] causing harm because of those reasons we're back to what happened in evangelicalism where

[00:28:22] people were abusive and then they were like everyone's reaction would be like well we can't

[00:28:29] have this be public because quote there they've been such a great person or they've done such good

[00:28:36] work that that would then damage the work that they're doing and it's like no they're causing harm

[00:28:42] that needs to be named and they need to be held accountable so preach preach what what who is who

[00:28:48] is our interview with today Megan let's get Brandon Brandon Flannery who I felt so bad when we

[00:28:55] jumped into the interview you hear me say I hear you have a book coming out it's been out it's out

[00:28:59] order Brandon's book you'll listen to it you'll love Brandon we love Brandon um we got to know him

[00:29:05] and um I've him and I go back a little bit further but um I picked up a copy of his book at

[00:29:11] content warning because David Morris was there with his books and um I'm excited to read it

[00:29:17] and I know you'll love it and let's get into it let's do it Brandon Flannery everybody

[00:29:30] all righty another episode of the thereafter podcast welcome back with your hosts Megan

[00:29:36] Crozier and uh myself Corlyn coffee and a guest today we have Brandon Flannery with us welcome Brandon

[00:29:45] say hi hi I'm so glad to be here thanks y'all um excited to have a little chit chat yeah hi um

[00:29:53] I'm excited because do you remember we zoomed once right yeah we did yeah like way back

[00:29:59] I want to say like a year and a half two years ago now yeah and now look fast forward you have

[00:30:04] a book deal and you have a book coming out what um tell us that's out right okay I don't want to

[00:30:09] get ahead of myself yeah yeah it's out yeah I got we got the hardcover out in august um paperback

[00:30:16] launched in November and then audiobook was December so um yeah it's been a whirlwind it's been

[00:30:23] super crazy so yeah it is finished as someone might say well I want to get told that book stuff but

[00:30:31] I also want to hear a little bit of your the context of kind of your story and everything so let's

[00:30:38] if you want to just tell us a little bit about kind of what what brand of evangelicalism were you

[00:30:46] I did I've been using the word flavor for some reason I don't know why but like anytime someone is

[00:30:51] like oh yeah I'm Christian like uh what flavor Christian are you because it also tells me

[00:30:54] of flavor trauma they likely have yeah um so uh yeah I was raised even jokal non-denominational

[00:31:03] like charismatic but like I would say not quite Bethel level but pretty close like I feel like

[00:31:09] Bethel was the lemon pepper seasoning that you'd incorporate into some meal spiritual meals so

[00:31:14] to speak but it wasn't like that typical uh the this it was just like a spice though that you'd like

[00:31:23] kind of bring in there maybe you'd go to a conference here or there get really inspired and go

[00:31:27] back to your not as charismatic space but like I mean on a Sunday morning you would hear tongues you

[00:31:32] would hear um you'd you'd see flaggers um so um wouldn't get like a ton of like perfect you'd

[00:31:39] sometimes get some prophetic words but like it was an approved person who was like on a certain team

[00:31:45] it was a mega church so I grew up at new life oh um in colar springs colarado um so like yeah

[00:31:52] that that there you got it I got it I went I went we can just expedite at this point I grew up

[00:31:57] Southern Baptist but I had a brief affair with charismatic uh a charismatic church that was

[00:32:03] a church plant of a new life in the Kansas to Kansas area so it was life church Kansas oh which

[00:32:12] one life church uh oh later clint spray clint sprig sprig I believe was the pastor at the time

[00:32:20] and my youth pastor there was Jared Schultz shout out to Jared Schultz he got me hooked on

[00:32:25] Diet Coke and Emo music uh I along with the trauma I owe him a big bill for a lot of things

[00:32:32] that he got me into um anyway uh but yeah up into that point I had no idea the Holy Spirit existed

[00:32:38] and then someone brought me to that youth group that was a new life plant and I was like holy shit

[00:32:42] there's like a whole other side to this thing um anyway it was like did you guys have your

[00:32:47] Amash pit of righteousness there as well we did we did yeah I just have to I don't want to get too far

[00:32:56] into the weeds but I have to ask about that approved person that could give the prophetic word because

[00:33:02] I it's just funny to me that the whole concept of prophecy and all of that has just kind of gone

[00:33:11] um there's like prophetic influencers and there's people who you know where I would say

[00:33:17] there's people from Bethel that I would say were complicit in January 6th because of their

[00:33:21] prophetic you know following and quote unquote but um what like what so at new life they're like okay

[00:33:29] but we actually have the prophecy market corner is that I mean is that kind of what the vibe was

[00:33:35] like what is that I mean kind of I mean it was a big church at its apex I want to say it was 15,000

[00:33:44] when I was a sought before Ted decided to hire a man and have an affair so um and then the crumbling

[00:33:53] and then a shooting and then lots of other stuff so but at its apex I want to say it was 15,000

[00:33:59] and then the youth group was easily 1500 um and that's just high school um so I like I think part of it

[00:34:08] was you can't just have a ton of people running up trying to grab the microphone from this massive

[00:34:13] congregation um so like there are familiar faces that had built rapport it's not like you went

[00:34:19] through a class or anything like that or it's like you just had to know certain someone's and then

[00:34:23] every so often like if if you were a familiar face you could approach someone where you knew there was

[00:34:28] a microphone and they would listen to the prophecy first to kind of like check it and then it's like okay

[00:34:33] maybe let me just let's see if it fits in the in the order of service um but typically it'd be like

[00:34:40] a rotating five people that it's like they had somehow built rapport with the pastors had been

[00:34:46] there a while and they know they're not going to say something super crazy so then they'll be like okay

[00:34:51] you can grab the microphone so yeah uh it was just yeah that I what's interesting to is I've never

[00:34:58] saw no I saw once what was the other one it's um tongues and the interpretation of tongues

[00:35:03] I saw that one time but like I think that's the craziest it got at ours and just a lot of jumping

[00:35:08] during worship a lot of white people dancing yeah so a lot of a lot of better is one day in this house

[00:35:14] better his one day uh yeah ours was because it was the church new life wrote um I am free and uh who

[00:35:25] is who got famous for it I'm trying to think of Israel who'd purchase the rights yeah

[00:35:30] who was was he well no no no it was we're both just silently like I forget who's but it was John

[00:35:38] Egan that wrote that song in our church and like we would lose our minds over it and so when I am

[00:35:43] free became like a big deal I think it was um oh god australia um news boys I think it was news

[00:35:51] boys that maybe took it up could have been I can't remember but I got a big deal and like we would

[00:35:55] lose our minds like dancing to that song so so then you know you're in new life like and now

[00:36:03] you're here they're had with been kind of an in between right like one would hope or if you not

[00:36:10] um yeah I guess like the biggest thing for me to say is um I was really much so all in on

[00:36:15] evangelicalism and I think that I fit the bill for um someone who could be successful in that space

[00:36:24] I'm white I'm cis um my personality does decently well in that space like um like charismatic enough

[00:36:31] but also still want to impress people you know and so I think that um I I really the the mentality

[00:36:39] that was taught to me is someone who really loves Jesus and of course I really want to love Jesus

[00:36:44] is going to like do full-time ministry or go become a missionary or like write important things or

[00:36:49] speak about important things like you can go get a normal job but like it's like second class and so

[00:36:56] you really want to show how much you love God through your zeal and your um I would say sacrifice

[00:37:02] and so like there's this mentality of like whatever I like I should do the opposite

[00:37:06] and it probably something to do with the fact that I'm the queer person and like my body literally

[00:37:11] wanted something that was told was bad told was evil and witnessed firsthand like a leader who

[00:37:18] was found out and everything was taken from him and like there was this like this vivid um example of

[00:37:26] this is what happens if you get found out and so um I but other than my queerness I really was I

[00:37:33] was all in it gave me so much um uh validation and purpose and belonging and so I went off to

[00:37:40] I was gonna stay with my church we had this really intense um post high school leadership academy

[00:37:46] like all the charismatic non-denominational spaces due to get free labor and um uh it was called 24

[00:37:54] seven and they had the cops called them lots of times that's a whole nother thing but I got cancelled

[00:37:59] and I was like what's the next worst thing that I am terrified of that I can do um and so I picked

[00:38:06] team A&M Ministries Honor Academy so I'm going to honor Academy I was good at it we just did an

[00:38:12] episode about all not honor academy specifically but I brought it up a lot uh but yeah all of these

[00:38:19] leadership training programs uh that that yeah pray on that 18 to 20 year old demographic of you

[00:38:25] don't need to go to college come serve Jesus for free uh or better yet pay us exactly and actually

[00:38:32] you get assigned jobs at team at at the honor academy and one of my jobs was that person where I'd be

[00:38:37] like you don't know what to do come spend a year with us it'd be great you can spend a year

[00:38:41] figuring out what you want to do don't you want to give a year to god what's one year in the scheme

[00:38:46] of your life like that was the those are the tag lines to get not yeah exactly to your point not

[00:38:51] just free labor labor paying to work for you so yeah who did you all cover I'm just so curious

[00:38:58] at that episode it was too many and what other one we talked about a lot of them we talked about

[00:39:02] rev five I don't know if you are familiar actually don't know that one um and um who what was the

[00:39:08] one with assemblies of god mission um I can't remember the name but yeah we talked about why we um uh

[00:39:16] that was another one I did oh you did you did it yes both wow oh I told you I was in

[00:39:22] so I after my year I was gonna stay another year and tour at the honor academy like that so much

[00:39:28] I loved it um and and there was so that's that's a whole nother episode like honor academy there's

[00:39:33] a lot that happened there um a quick aside I reconnected I've been reconnected with some friends

[00:39:39] from there and we a lot of us have deconstructed um some are still Christian some are not

[00:39:44] and I went to dals Texas with my boyfriend and it was just a surreal moment to be with these people

[00:39:49] who I had done a lot of crazy things in the name of god and would never imagine that they would

[00:39:56] want to meet my boyfriend and hear there so that's like a really beautiful weekend um

[00:40:01] that whole program is shut down right like the honor academy doesn't exist anymore correct

[00:40:06] or it's rebranded I guess maybe it's something else it hasn't uh me and Ron loose have talked uh in

[00:40:13] Facebook messenger uh I think he's trying to like still I don't know what else he can do besides

[00:40:19] trying to go around and speak that's that's really his his gig um so I would imagine he's still

[00:40:25] doing that and like he was trying to launch something I don't know if I ever got the ground but in short

[00:40:30] it closed down they were granted that land um by oh gosh uh Keith Green um his widow granted it

[00:40:41] to teen mania and so they had this property gorgeous property out in west Texas I want to say it was

[00:40:47] like 400 something acres and um they just defaulted on their taxes was part of it and another part was

[00:40:56] they Ron had purchased another ministry and I don't know what the legal term for it is but like

[00:41:03] that ministry loaned money it didn't have to teen mania to pay off all this debt it had so he's like

[00:41:10] hiding debt um and eventually it caught up to him um and they uh they weren't being kept so at one

[00:41:18] point they moved to Dallas like I think there are last two dying years because they lost the property

[00:41:25] I had a couple of friends that were part of that era um but it wound down I want to say around 20

[00:41:31] 14 15 like right in there so and I graduated from there in 2008 2009 okay yeah it was my year that

[00:41:37] I had my my closest experience to that was my brother and I went there and that was in 2000 oh wow

[00:41:43] or I believe 2005 2005 yeah yeah it's um so I'm sure you have plenty of stories I've heard I've

[00:41:52] heard every story from those couple years for sure well I just had a question because yeah

[00:41:58] there here's and I think that this isn't a question I would have asked maybe two years ago

[00:42:03] but there's a hint of nostalgia here right and I think that there's this piece of like like with

[00:42:11] a lot of our stories of healing and kind of coming out of this place that was our whole lives whether

[00:42:18] it was in kind of that that really intense high control environment or whether it was just being

[00:42:23] really involved in a church and you have community and you have things and I think that

[00:42:28] you know you go through these shifts when you're deconstructing like fuck all of it it was all

[00:42:33] horrible and I think that like after time and maybe some perspective and maybe it was all horrible

[00:42:39] for people I don't want to be prescriptive but I do sense like a bit of nostalgia here and I'm curious

[00:42:44] if that's something that you've had to sift through of like maybe there were some things that

[00:42:49] that were like good about it or maybe there were some things that I gained from it that I carry

[00:42:55] now but then now you know you have a new perspective also yeah I do think it's important to go

[00:43:05] through the fuck all space especially when it comes to an entity or person or place or thing

[00:43:15] that is harming you and is causing harm like the x stage is so important I was recently talking

[00:43:23] about my move to Atlanta with someone and I was like I heard this phrase growing up of

[00:43:29] make sure you're just running to not from I know I'm sure it was a Christian space that I heard that

[00:43:35] and I actually don't agree with that anymore if you're in a a household where there's an abuser

[00:43:41] it doesn't matter where you go just get out of the house yeah and so I think that for a lot of us

[00:43:47] that stage is so important and I think that our bodies are like they're so beautiful in the sense of

[00:43:55] anger like all emotions are valid and important neither good nor bad and I love I've really come

[00:44:01] to befriend anger because it is the emotion that keeps us safe it's the emotion that gives us power

[00:44:07] to run from a place of harm it's the emotion that helps us form identity of here is where I stop

[00:44:13] and you begin you have no you don't have access past this point it's super important and

[00:44:20] and now like in that's a whole nother podcast about anger but like I think it's so important to go

[00:44:25] into the x phase but what I've been noticing is that not all the time and I think that we don't we

[00:44:31] can't dictate what that timeline looks like but I have been noticing and a lot of these like

[00:44:36] ex-minjulical spaces that it's just the x and it's just anger and if you need that to be safe I get it

[00:44:43] and however long that's going to serve you stay there and be angry and form boundaries and create

[00:44:49] distance but what I found for myself it has been that in the past I was so sold out on evangelicalism

[00:44:58] that I felt like it was driving my life and if whatever leader I was supposed to follow said turn

[00:45:04] right I would turn right and for years out of this place of anger and pain and resentment

[00:45:13] if I bumped into people that looked like that entity and they said hey I think you should turn

[00:45:19] right like it I think I would be a healthy choice for you my immediate gut reaction I'd be like

[00:45:23] no and I'd turn left even if it would have been a healthy choice to like align with whatever they were

[00:45:31] like friends family were saying and I think that anger and and love are actually pretty close

[00:45:41] neighbors like what the best thing that I can do is come to a place of indifference and come to a

[00:45:45] place of healing where I can come across the street and get perspective and that's where I feel

[00:45:50] where I'm at in my journey with that and like yeah a nostalgia but more than nostalgia I think that

[00:45:56] but yes nostalgia and I can hold both in my hand of I had some beautiful moments and beautiful

[00:46:04] friends and some beautiful things happen and some rough things and things in between where I don't

[00:46:10] want to inherit a framework from evangelicalism that says I have to choose either or that I have

[00:46:18] to live in black and white but I actually even want to dismantle the framework I was given

[00:46:25] where I'm not saying you definitely have the wrong answers I can even say you know maybe there are

[00:46:30] some good things there and some good answers but you don't have an monopoly on it and so that's

[00:46:35] like the more important work for me now where it's like I do want to incorporate some things I think

[00:46:40] there was a lot of pain and control and manipulation that places like team Mania did and I think it's

[00:46:46] so important to continue to critique those as they pop up because they're like whack a mole and

[00:46:51] they keep popping up here or there and I think it's important that we look at our history and critique

[00:46:55] the spaces and I can look at my friendships where I was sitting at brunch we're drinking mimosas

[00:47:02] and we've had a lot of bullshit and some of them still work in mega churches and some of them are

[00:47:07] no longer Christians all of them are straight but I'm sitting there with my boyfriend and we can

[00:47:14] share this space and hold it for what it is that yeah like we were absolutely traumatized

[00:47:19] and it makes me think of the glass castle where the memoir the glass castle where the writer

[00:47:26] could not understand that how could she love like appreciate her dad so much because he got he

[00:47:32] created some magic for her and he was an abuser and I think both of those things can be true I

[00:47:39] experienced a magic there in the sense of I was given purpose I was giving intense community

[00:47:45] I was given value and like wow look at what you're offering I was giving confidence those things

[00:47:50] were magic that I got in this crucible of a space and it was still a crucible that was causing harm

[00:47:57] and so yeah I would say that nostalgia and there are some good things at the same time yeah

[00:48:03] I'm curious where you where you went from honor academy to you said why we have did you go directly

[00:48:10] into a DTS or into why we am out of honor academy so because I want to stay at T Mania obviously

[00:48:20] God's plan for me was to leave it and so I took on a that whole push pull relationship

[00:48:27] with desires and wants that's one that's taken me a lot of time to recover

[00:48:34] but I was offered a youth pastoring position back in color to springs I was really excited to get

[00:48:39] out of that space and so again of course I'll go back and so I went back was a junior high pastor

[00:48:45] for three years as a 19 to 22 year old another whole on podcasts episode could be like why the heck

[00:48:51] do we use young people to teach one of the most at risk populations and give them the least

[00:48:58] amount of training I was running youth programs at 18 19 years old which is absolutely wild to me

[00:49:04] that they let me do that I mean it also makes sense because you've got the energy you've got

[00:49:10] the zeal and then they can also direct that zeal I think that that's part of it that's

[00:49:16] primary cynicism coming up but it's that is an easier person to maneuver rather than a you know

[00:49:23] 45 year old individual who is like actually studied and taken time to form opinions that they

[00:49:31] can push back on it would be my more cynical yeah the situation yeah so anyway I did that for

[00:49:40] three years and then did why we am and then I would say that actually during why I'm

[00:49:43] slash towards the end of it yeah I would say the last like month or two that's when I really

[00:49:49] was like oh shit I have to what have I been a part of what am I complicit in do I believe in this

[00:49:55] is there a god is everything I believed a lie like all of that started actually in why one which I've

[00:50:02] actually been learning that is not an uncommon story and I think it's because with the research

[00:50:08] that I've done around why people are leaving Christianity exposure to difference is a huge moment

[00:50:14] for people to start questioning and I think that why we am indirectly is probably one of the biggest

[00:50:22] exposures for a lot of young naive zealous evangelical youths where you know maybe they grew up in

[00:50:31] this tiny little town and they want to change the world for god of course they'll become a missionary

[00:50:35] they do why we am and then they go to India and they're like oh shit um what do I actually believe

[00:50:42] yeah yeah literally happens I think I think that there's also something about the extremity like

[00:50:48] I often will tell people like like my story was getting involved in a very high control cult like

[00:50:52] church plant and had I like gone to bible college and like gotten a more of an average youth pastor

[00:51:00] job out of bible college and had more of a moderate experience I may have waited I still think

[00:51:06] I probably would have gotten there to like the I don't believe this but like it probably could have

[00:51:11] taken me another 10 or 20 years whereas the extremity of a why we M DTS or you know a very intense

[00:51:22] church plan experience kind of like turns everything to 11 and makes you really question all of these

[00:51:29] things you're taking very seriously yeah no I absolutely agree with that again with some of

[00:51:35] that research of looking at why people are leaving the amount of times I read a story of they went

[00:51:40] to get a masters in theology and then they like came to terms with what the bible is that it's not

[00:51:46] this holy book and like they're getting exposed to these are gaps that we have or misalignments

[00:51:52] that we have or like this is the actual story behind this book and then like wait wait I thought

[00:51:57] it was perfect I thought it was this divine thing and for that was the story I read a lot within

[00:52:02] my research where it's just like no the people who are most zalas are typically the ones that took

[00:52:05] this thing so seriously that they're like whether be looking at the bible with a critical eye

[00:52:11] and they're like shit I can't believe in this anymore or it was an I really think that while I am

[00:52:19] terrified for Trump to get that presidency I am grateful for his original presidency in the sense

[00:52:26] it was a catalyst for so many people to look at that and be like wait wait wait wait wait wait

[00:52:33] the people I've been aligned with are aligning with this person and that person doesn't look like

[00:52:36] Jesus what what the hell happened um I think it's the first time on this podcast that anybody has ever

[00:52:43] said they were grateful for the Trump president we're gonna pull that one section and it's gonna

[00:52:50] be just totally out of context quoted yeah Brandon planery listen to this episode he's grateful

[00:52:55] for Trump's presidency we'll get more downloads than any other episode ever let's go say y'all get

[00:53:00] some good clickbait yeah um but I am curious okay you talked briefly about never wanting to come out

[00:53:10] and then now you know you're like living your full self right and so was there were you did you

[00:53:17] know from a very young age that you were gay and you just were closeted or were you psi B for like

[00:53:23] what was that journey for you as you kind of in the mix of all of these yeah these different jobs

[00:53:30] that you had in this yeah and kind of your deconstruction experience yeah no um absolutely um I knew

[00:53:38] very young and uh to kind of come back to that idea of I was really good I was a poster child

[00:53:45] for evangelicalism except for this one fucking thing that would just not let up and so for a long time

[00:53:52] I resented my sexuality for that very reason I was like man everything else about me

[00:53:58] sits so well in the seat um but the one thing was it was a big thing for for that space um

[00:54:06] and again like mentioned earlier like seeing what happened to Ted Haggard and seeing

[00:54:11] what people were saying or not saying um about LGBTQ people I um was very cognitively aware of

[00:54:18] that this is the one thing that does not fit and I better not let anyone see um when the few

[00:54:24] times I did it didn't go well um you know at new life I had a youth group leader that tried to

[00:54:30] exercise me I had another elder that like once I shared they lost they were like panicked and

[00:54:37] then we're right off to get their wife because I guess they didn't feel like they could be

[00:54:41] around me even though we're in this massive auditorium with the Billy Greer rule applied to gay people

[00:54:47] I've never seen that before apparently so no oh so many of my relationships with people who stayed

[00:54:52] in that space it was so weird because I was always like I don't get the whole like parody culture

[00:54:57] thing is a stupid I ain't like hanging out with a girl in a car but I was like um talked about that

[00:55:03] all the time and then to see it applied to me with my guy friends I'm like oh my god

[00:55:07] I'm not gonna do anything I literally at team Anea was cuddling men because I was told to

[00:55:12] and I was fine so the fact that men can't have any control over themselves is a bunch of bullshit

[00:55:17] because I'd be in like locker rooms or a man where naked and I didn't sexually assault anyone

[00:55:21] like you can you can have control well and and as a person who has come out late in life and had

[00:55:28] a lot of uh explorative gay uh experiences nothing is has been as homo erotic as my experience at like

[00:55:35] bible camp as a teenager oh my god yeah it was it was homo erotic like we were we had naked night

[00:55:41] like every year at our bible camp and we would like I'll be naked together I mean it was

[00:55:46] yep it was gay there was nothing gayer than being a new th group for me I was always no I always

[00:55:52] joke that and say like if we are not born gay even jellicolism is like making us like with the

[00:55:58] spaces that they create yeah um so homo erotic it was so weird like at a very young age like see it

[00:56:05] yeah like going to youth camps and you would get extra points if like the guys would do weird shit

[00:56:11] together like yep so so many similar experiences so anyway all that so then um I and then like

[00:56:21] like I started to become honest about who I was but it was always attached to the language of same sex attraction

[00:56:31] and it was this thing to hopefully be cured especially coming from charismatic spaces what's

[00:56:36] terrifying about that space and that flavor of Christianity is that it can um

[00:56:43] be delusional like i've noticed with people that are still in that space

[00:56:47] that they have a hard time accepting reality because you don't want to believe that

[00:56:53] that's not real what you make things real by what you believe by what you speak into existence

[00:56:58] like that a lot of those people would never say that they have um name and inclamate mentality but

[00:57:04] that they kind of do um it's just been rebranded and so I know I was in that space of like

[00:57:09] i'm gonna believe for this um and but I would also be very honest of like i'm attracted to

[00:57:15] to guys um i ended up dating a girl who from y lamp who knew I was attracted to men um but like

[00:57:22] we got along so well we're like let's try it um and she was bisexual and so she just like

[00:57:27] I get it like women are beautiful and so um it wasn't until it reached a boiling point

[00:57:36] after she and i broke up and we didn't break up for me to come out um but when we broke up those

[00:57:43] like this like loneliness that finally set in of i'm no longer in the church because it started

[00:57:47] questioning things um i lost a lot of my friends because they're connected to whether it be the

[00:57:53] church the ministry uh missions organizations and also this deeper existential loneliness of

[00:58:00] i don't know what i believe and if i've been doing this for god and i don't know if god is even

[00:58:06] there then who fucking cares um and so that was like i explained it specifically in my book like

[00:58:14] this it was there for a very long time and i used the analogy of a back draft um it was uh i'm

[00:58:21] still haunted by that film like i was such a little kid that i remember it being burned alive

[00:58:25] i don't remember what happened i just know there's fire like but i do remember like what a back

[00:58:29] draft is and like when a fire is about to die out from lack of oxygen if it gets the tiniest

[00:58:34] crack of oxygen it'll explode out and that's how i described my sexuality it was just like rampant

[00:58:41] to try to like i've been starved for so long um and like went on went from virgin at 25 wouldn't

[00:58:48] like even was planning on giving virgin lips to my wife on the wedding day um which is really easy

[00:58:54] to do when you don't want to kiss them um to like 22 body like i used the language of bias because

[00:59:00] it was like that it wasn't i it was i didn't really know the people it was just having sex within

[00:59:04] like two to three months um and so then stumbled into a relationship wasn't planning on that happening

[00:59:12] um and that's where really it started to solidify things of like wait what is wrong with this

[00:59:17] um and i feel like that was the kind of nail in the coffin for me of like wait i'm in this

[00:59:22] healthy relationship it's a lot healthier than huking up um it had its own problems and we're

[00:59:27] not together anymore but like the question came up of what is actually wrong with loving someone

[00:59:33] i don't get it like why is this bad and before then i could label it as well of course being gay

[00:59:39] as bad like look at all the sex that i've had and look at um you know because queer people were demonized

[00:59:45] for me it's like oh it's just about lust it's not about love and i had all these like excuses in my

[00:59:50] head to help me cope with not acting on my attractions and my sexual identity um and then what

[00:59:59] i didn't have answers anymore for that for those questions now in a in a in a relationship

[01:00:05] so um i'm in the in the end i'm grateful for my sexuality because i think that i was getting a payoff

[01:00:15] from evangelicalism to kind of use um your words courtland like i think that eventually i would have

[01:00:21] deconstructed but my sexuality um exaggerated it or expedited it because um i had to and i had to

[01:00:31] look at these verses and i had to decide what i think because there's a piece of me that didn't fit

[01:00:36] anymore that i couldn't keep silent and what does that mean for me and it made me question the

[01:00:42] bible it made me look at things more critically it made me see how this system was not just harming

[01:00:46] me but harming women harming people of color um it has a political agenda like it's start it was just

[01:00:52] a domino effect which any even joker i don't know why they would listening to us be like and this is

[01:00:57] why you keep you state keep things in the closet you don't try because then it's just a downward

[01:01:01] spiral from there um but it was it was i'm so grateful for my sexuality because it gave me

[01:01:08] it forced me to come to terms with things that maybe i wouldn't have had the courage to

[01:01:15] because i i had to um so yeah i'm really grateful for it well i i want to hit on like this this point

[01:01:21] so i want to bring up a couple other podcasters um in in inspiring kind of this question here um

[01:01:29] there's a podcast called we were christian kids a couple friends of mine who i grew up with uh

[01:01:32] justin randall and calvader cdia who i think they're not hosting anymore but great podcast go check

[01:01:38] those guys out but just in talked about it one of their episodes about you know he grew up in the

[01:01:44] church i mentioned earlier um and ended up then you know having a you know substance abuse um

[01:01:51] you know situation and then getting sober and then this kind of like self-fulfilling or this

[01:01:57] like kind of like shame spiral of like oh we were always told like this is what happy you get in the

[01:02:02] gay community you start like hookin up with everyone you start drinking you start doing drugs and

[01:02:07] this is why being gay is bad and he's like oh no it's just because like we are so traumatized

[01:02:14] by this institution that then set us out into the world and then blamed the way that we behaved

[01:02:22] on our sexuality and so yeah not to again slouch aim anyone or you know whatever but like

[01:02:29] did you experience this i guess emotion about like oh now i'm embracing myself but also there's

[01:02:37] this kind of like interior like oh this is why they said being because we can't have a relationship

[01:02:42] because we can't because we have to you know where these uh party drug sex crazed queer people

[01:02:50] did you have any of that internalized yeah yeah no 100 percent it wasn't so much around like

[01:02:55] drug or sex like i'm still like a i guess i don't know about that but like it wasn't like my

[01:03:00] vice so to speak um and that feel like drugs and alcohol are very like i don't have like a um

[01:03:07] compulsive relationship to those things but i did have a compulsive relationship to sex um

[01:03:13] and um i i definitely internalized this homophobia inside of even a relationship where i'm like

[01:03:23] one of the reasons that this relationship fell apart is i would say things like maybe

[01:03:29] we're not supposed to be gay because at this point in my life i'm like because bottoming is horrible

[01:03:34] and maybe all of us are just pretending to like this so that way we can like satisfy these desires

[01:03:41] and like we're just using each other like like i and next one would be like next thing is like

[01:03:45] what happens if what happens if i did we decide to adopt a girl who's gonna tell her about a period

[01:03:50] this is why we need had a sexual relationship because someone needs to tell her

[01:03:54] about how our body works i can't tell her how our body work like i would create thing after thing

[01:03:58] after thing to try to hold on to this like i wouldn't say hold on to it but like there was a panic

[01:04:04] that was stirring underneath all of it and i i needed to come to terms with it but then was

[01:04:10] terrified too um because it would blow up this relationship that i cared about um so it wasn't

[01:04:17] until we broke up that a lot i could actually really stare at those questions um and i'm very grateful

[01:04:23] for places like launch pad and with collective where i was um encountering queer people who really

[01:04:32] loved Jesus and really loved um and like don't necessarily visit the bible is this perfect thing

[01:04:39] and they're very progressive a lot of their beliefs but like um they a lot of there's plenty

[01:04:44] of queer pastors in that space and that was my first time experiencing that seeing this black

[01:04:52] lesbian pastor talk about how much she loves the bible and i'm just like what the fuck is happening

[01:04:58] and so while i don't quite live there it was so helpful for me to see that there was a different

[01:05:05] option i think i've heard this language before i still hear it from people that i love

[01:05:11] um where that is where they will continue to say isn't this bad because that space is so sexualized

[01:05:19] because they're grooming children because um all you care about is sex it takes over this

[01:05:25] identity they have a long list of reasons as to why that i inherited and i would agree

[01:05:31] courtland where i think that um so much of the queer experiences trauma based um i think minority

[01:05:40] were um identities in general a lot of those cultures are going to be reactive in nature because

[01:05:46] you're responding to an oppressive system and so um i think that in a lot of those spaces we're

[01:05:55] having to unpack like what is for me like what what's me and what is my trauma um and so like for me

[01:06:02] definitely i think that one of my trauma actions was um i am so i've so much shame because i feel like

[01:06:10] i'm still going to hell even though i'm coming out of closet even though i don't want to believe that

[01:06:14] and um sex is a really good thing to make you feel good you know so for a long time sex was this

[01:06:21] escapist um coping skill where instead of coming to terms with who i was and the repercussions to that

[01:06:30] um sex was a great way for me to feel good to feel connected to get some identity

[01:06:36] and to kind of pretend like the world didn't exist for a while and so yeah i jump from body to

[01:06:40] body to body beautiful book that it it is dated in the sense of i think that the writer uh

[01:06:45] assumes certain things about queer people that aren't necessarily true especially in spaces that

[01:06:51] are more accepting and we're moving forward so like uh uh five steps back but we like in general on

[01:06:58] the long term like when we're looking at the long expansive time um especially as the United

[01:07:04] States like we're doing a lot better around this stuff where we have kids who are meeting their

[01:07:10] partners in high school and they're going to prom you know and it's not a big deal and i think that

[01:07:17] my what i'm seeing is a lot healthier choices from those individuals rather than living here in

[01:07:23] Atlanta and you know i'm at a bar and there's an older gay man that is coming from rural

[01:07:30] Alabama and comes to Atlanta to have a drink or two and he's just so desperate to have sex

[01:07:35] and then return and pretend like nothing's happening um and so i think that as we continue to

[01:07:42] heal this as a society it makes me think of um uh ableism and you know we could say like well

[01:07:50] isn't life so hard for someone in a wheelchair it's like well what makes life hard for someone

[01:07:56] in a wheelchair is the fact that there's curbs everywhere and there's stairs like it doesn't have

[01:08:00] to be difficult the society that we've built is built for able bodied people that's why it's

[01:08:07] difficult the reason it's difficult for queer people is because life has been built for heteronormative

[01:08:13] cis people but that's the reason it's difficult and the reason it's and we don't have support

[01:08:18] and we don't have role models like the list is endless as to why why would you expect

[01:08:23] this population to have everything together when there's no support system there's no

[01:08:29] major role models that like i now i found them but especially when you're in evangelical spaces

[01:08:35] who are you looking up to and who are you finding that you can kind of admire as a queer person

[01:08:40] um so now i found them like i like i had to dig through things and like find my own history

[01:08:46] but um it took time and it took healing and also working like i'm now in a relationship uh

[01:08:53] struggling do you anything it's like nine months now um where as a result of my choices in trauma

[01:08:58] around my trauma but choices around my trauma of using sex as an escape it did damage on our

[01:09:05] relationships so now a pendulum swing that i'm bumping into is around purity culture where it's like

[01:09:10] yeah peterie cultural has done a number on us and then i've also been over here in Benoho

[01:09:15] and like i've seen how my relationship to sex but on both sides of those extremes had consequences

[01:09:23] um and i'm now finding a beautiful medium uh where i'm really excited and grateful for

[01:09:28] the sexual identity and um life that i'm building not only with myself but with my partner i have

[01:09:34] i have a question just and you may not not to put you to say that you have to have landed somewhere

[01:09:41] because i don't you know i haven't um but i i am really impacted by what you're saying about

[01:09:48] being able to see queer people of faith and being able to see you know with your ted

[01:09:55] haggard example for instance right like there is this like oh there is either people who leave

[01:10:02] the faith and get to pursuing queer or people who just shove it down and keep being Christian

[01:10:08] and still suffer and likewise you know for myself like i identify as an atheist i'm non monogamous

[01:10:16] and polyamorous i am not sober but i think it's really important for people queer people to

[01:10:22] faith to exist for monogamous people queer people to exist for these other to to to so where do

[01:10:30] you find yourself like in that space in terms of that pendulum swing um so the what there's a couple

[01:10:41] identities that you pointed out so i'll i'll work through some of them you said atheist i would

[01:10:47] um the idea of there being a god beyond is very helpful for me i used to like live in a space where

[01:10:54] i'm like ah i don't think there's anything beyond that but um i've noticed that uh believing in

[01:11:00] something beyond that i've bumped into and i do have a lot of stories what feels like something

[01:11:03] beyond me was looking out for me or has been evident at least towards me um has been helpful

[01:11:09] and so i i identify as an optimistic seeker who will never fully find the answers but is

[01:11:15] so excited to learn from all the different options before me um religious wise and so i'll

[01:11:21] i'll send a quick remedi like every uh like once a month something that it's a ven of really healing

[01:11:26] and lovely place um when it comes to my sexual identity i would say that uh i am i am definitely gay

[01:11:34] and i am cis uh when it comes to um my relationship formula, short framework um i would say that it's

[01:11:44] it's so loose in the sense of um i don't need that one to be identified i don't need to identify as

[01:11:51] monogamous i don't need to identify as polyamorous what i in fact i just like getting rid of all the

[01:11:57] things i love so many things that my polyamorous friends have taught me around how one person is not

[01:12:03] my everything and is not my prince charming and it is unfair for them to literally

[01:12:09] satisfy all these different intimacies that i need intellectual, spiritual, sexual which uh there's

[01:12:17] so many and to for to expect this from one person is unfair um and so there are elements of polyamory

[01:12:24] that i carry with me in that regard um but i get to build a relationship that serves both me and

[01:12:34] my partner is how i currently exist i think that monogamy was this huge idol that i inherited

[01:12:42] from evangelicalism and that even when i left evangelicalism i would get so pissed when i'd run into

[01:12:48] queer people who are either in open relationships or polyamorous relationships being like

[01:12:52] gah every single one don't you have enough with your partner like why do you have to go why do

[01:12:57] we selfish um and so like would get so frustrated and because it was still this idol that not only

[01:13:04] i got from evangelicalism but like disney and hollywood and so many other spaces um and moving to a

[01:13:10] lanta has been this beautiful space of like i get a blank slate and i get to build what i want

[01:13:16] and so when i first came here um i i had no framework that i wanted to inherit i wanted to build

[01:13:23] something scratch so when my boyfriend and i started dating i was and i and i have been very open

[01:13:30] and of like explored polyamory and stuff like that but when we got together i said you we need to go

[01:13:37] to the common denominator of who needs what when it comes to how restricted our relationship is

[01:13:42] because um i am very based level right now and we can build whatever shelter that is going to

[01:13:49] cultivate respect for both of us and trust for both of us um so it we need to kind of have very open

[01:13:56] and direct conversations around what do we want and so while monogamy had come off the podium

[01:14:04] that is something that he wanted i was like we'll see if it serves us great and let's

[01:14:09] and if it stops serving us let's analyze it because we don't need to inherit that

[01:14:14] um and so uh what's been really beautiful that i've loved about monogamy uh as of such with my

[01:14:21] relationship is i remember the first time that i got stressed to work and stress is a trigger for

[01:14:27] me where i want sex and my natural reaction would be to pull up grinder and find as quick as i can

[01:14:33] anyone that's willing to have sex to help me cope with the stress that i'm feeling because i was in

[01:14:38] this monogam i am in this monogamous relationship i was like fuck i have to express this

[01:14:45] need oh no you're talking to your partner no yeah yeah fuck like i don't want to be vulnerable um and

[01:14:53] so like i remember texting him and be like hey like i'm super stressed right now at work this would

[01:14:58] be my natural reaction i would really like to have sex with you and just be very like vulnerable

[01:15:04] and like he could say no um and instead he was just like i love that you're sharing this with me

[01:15:10] and we've been able to like it instigated intimacy so at present monogamy is serving us but like

[01:15:17] ultimately whatever relational house we choose to build and what boundaries we create um because like

[01:15:23] when we first started it was it was even more open where he was going off to um uh p town and he

[01:15:29] was like i'm going off with friends and i want to dance with people and because people because

[01:15:32] you're not going to be there i'm like great let's have that beer round right when we're going

[01:15:35] out dancing we can kiss people we can dance with people i would like to cuddle with people i took

[01:15:39] that from even jokalism i'm not getting rid of it um and so like like those we don't need to

[01:15:45] be hard or nothing we get to build what serves us um and it's been really beautiful to

[01:15:50] to do with him i love that because i was just having a conversation about with somebody about why

[01:15:55] does it have to be a binary like either monogamous or non monogamous and because i feel like

[01:16:00] what it comes down to and essentially what you're saying is it comes down to the relationship

[01:16:04] agreements that you have with your partner and so it's like um what may look non monogamous to one

[01:16:13] couple might be monogamous to somebody else and so like why even what what used does that label have

[01:16:21] if what it comes down to is what relationship agreement you have with the person that you're in

[01:16:26] relationship with so i that makes a lot of sense yeah well i mean like let's imagine that you have

[01:16:32] like you're you married someone and um it comes out later that the other person's like really

[01:16:39] hate sex and like really is maybe more asexual in nature but now you have these kids

[01:16:44] you love doing life together but there's this element of your life that you cannot serve each other

[01:16:49] especially if the other person is sexual why can't we be more creative with our solutions of like okay

[01:16:55] like you have this family that you're building and this is beautiful to you just have that together

[01:16:58] why do we need to disrupt that like could you date some what like if you're wanting that one on one

[01:17:03] emotional intimacy maybe you have a partner where you're going to have that you have a more sexual

[01:17:09] relationship and you have this family or you just open up the relationship if it's not so much

[01:17:13] you need that emotional connection maybe you go off and you have hookups like i don't think that

[01:17:18] i think love looks like how can we serve each other like how can again build a relational house

[01:17:24] that doesn't need to be inherited like a blueprint but something we could build from scratch because

[01:17:28] ultimately we live in this home no one else does and i think you're to your point brained about

[01:17:33] the world being built that that illustration about ableism and and the structures that we're living in

[01:17:40] is is very apt and one of the reasons why there's so much panic around gender and around

[01:17:47] you know all the kids being bisexual these days and you know like everyone because it's like oh man

[01:17:53] we don't know where to put people what boxes to put people in and therefore we can't be prescriptive

[01:18:02] about telling people how to behave um and i think that that is something we're seeing a

[01:18:09] big revolution of like on all sides right like like we can't be gatekeeping our genders anymore

[01:18:17] we can't be gatekeeping queerness anymore we can't be gatekeeping in these in these areas because

[01:18:23] we are not a monolith right there is there is not a single perfect representation of this given

[01:18:33] identity that anyone might hold i love how you're kind of illustrating this openness to being able to

[01:18:41] say like well what serves me and also like what serves me now versus in my chain yeah

[01:18:47] yep that was take that would have been terrifying to be it comes full circle can i can i tell the story

[01:18:53] of why we zoomed for the first time do you remember no Brandon you don't remember oh sorry i wasn't sure

[01:19:02] who was directed towards no that's fine i remember the first time i zoomed it was because she was like

[01:19:08] i really want to host a podcast with you then we had to keep it a secret for a minute anyway that's

[01:19:14] our story it was about polyamory do you remember yeah oh actually i had read a blog post that you

[01:19:22] had written about nominatmi and i was like i have questions about this because i'm my co-host

[01:19:29] of my podcast is nominatmi and and we got on a zoom and i love that because i can see how

[01:19:37] you evolved not that i mean we we got on a zoom and and you talked about some of the things you

[01:19:41] just mentioned were like you everyone was just kind of like well if you're queer you have to be

[01:19:46] polyamorous and you were like i kind of want to push back on that a little bit and you can't be

[01:19:49] twisted and you can't be sober and you can't which is such a bullshit sorry and it was it was so

[01:19:56] good because it was in a conversation and i feel like so much of social media and we didn't even

[01:20:01] know each other for so much of social media is like i disagree fuck this you know like you

[01:20:07] you know cancel you and write you off but it was like hey can we have a conversation about this

[01:20:12] and we realized that we lined up and had a lot of agreement even though there was a question

[01:20:17] that i had about something you had written and so it's amazing to see the the rest of that conversation

[01:20:22] now well and i would say not even rest of conversation i think that it's i am so grateful that we are

[01:20:27] not we don't have to be slaves to our past because i would say i've even evolved from that

[01:20:33] conversation that we had Megan what i think that i was trying to still make monogamy this

[01:20:41] more valuable thing because that language was i definitely put it as a commodity and i was using

[01:20:46] a lot of like marxist language and abstraction and stuff like that and so um like i think it was a very

[01:20:53] uh hoidy toyty way of saying like i think it's more valuable um and so i remember that blog post

[01:21:03] in particular caused a lot of conversations which i'm grateful for because it came brought me into

[01:21:08] contact with more people who are different than me um one of my friends um has found herself

[01:21:14] in a polyamorous relationship and was the first time she had done it and she left even jelko

[01:21:19] some like years before and she right and got pissed but then she went to her partner um and her partner

[01:21:25] was a sign mail at birth um and uh is attracted at earlier in their life they were attracted to men

[01:21:34] that's changed now and so they were sharing with her that that was their experience in gay spaces

[01:21:41] where it seems like everyone was just trying to hook up there wasn't this like commitment anymore

[01:21:47] and that it was a frustration that they held um while living in that space and so that's where

[01:21:52] it's like there's nuance like i you know i just because something works for me and serves me

[01:21:57] my partner doesn't mean that it doesn't sort doesn't mean that serves someone else and it doesn't

[01:22:02] mean that it serves us in five years maybe it will again it's no longer an idol i need this to be the

[01:22:08] case but i do love what it's producing in our relationship and so as long as it's serving both of us

[01:22:16] i'm going to keep it and that's what's beautiful with me now is like i like with even jelko's

[01:22:22] we have to hold on i found the right answer i don't believe in right answers anymore

[01:22:26] i like that's another framework thing where it's like no i don't think any of us have the right answers

[01:22:30] i think a lot of us have different answers that serve us for different times in different places

[01:22:34] and for the time this is this is an answer that is serving both of us for this time um and it doesn't

[01:22:43] control me but rather it serves it's the other way around it serves me um and as soon as it stops

[01:22:48] doing that then it should be analyzed um and that's to be selfish but like that's something that

[01:22:53] again intimacy if that were to ever change now i have to have another intimate conversation with

[01:22:58] my partner and share my desires and wants and create solutions that's going to um serve each other

[01:23:06] and respect each other um yeah so so much so much of it boils down to like the willingness to have

[01:23:16] maybe scary conversations or uncomfortable conversations um yes that's one thing i love about

[01:23:23] career relationships is we don't get a blueprint and as a result i think there's a lot of um

[01:23:30] resentment that occurs over a long period of time in straight relationships because they don't

[01:23:38] have conversations as much um as queer people not necessarily but like a luxury but also a cost

[01:23:46] of heterosexual relationships is you could assume a lot because there's a lot of blueprints that

[01:23:52] you're handed from the moment i talk to another person we have to have conversations around

[01:23:59] who wants what and what do things look like from the get go um a lot of my straight relationships

[01:24:06] friends that are in straight relationships they bump into a later and they realize oh wait we could

[01:24:09] talk about this but so often they just put on the clothes they were given and the roles that

[01:24:14] they were given um without question until they start till they're too small or they're itching

[01:24:20] and then at some point maybe they explode on their partner one really they could have had a

[01:24:25] conversation a lot sooner and there wouldn't be this built up resentment as a result of the blueprints

[01:24:31] that we've been we've inherited hmm that is so good yeah well and i know we're um getting to time

[01:24:40] but i i want to hear a little bit about your book too and make sure we get that plugged and

[01:24:44] and talk talk about that whole process and so we can make sure we our listeners know where to

[01:24:50] order it what to where to read your full story yes um so my book is called Stumbling

[01:24:56] Assassin Memoir about coming out of evangelicalism um it's with uh late drive books really love

[01:25:03] working with them it's been a whirlwind of an adventure to get that published in short it is

[01:25:11] uh me poking fun at trauma of deconstruction um and the the answers that i have found not the answer

[01:25:19] but some answers that i have found on the other side so i learned from story personally so

[01:25:25] i use a little snippets in time throughout my journey that shifted something inside of me

[01:25:31] whether that was blowing the house down um so to speak that i was living in of evangelicalism

[01:25:37] to like some bricks that i've been finding to rebuild um it's about grief um it's about

[01:25:43] queerness um it's about sex um and all along the way i tried to with my humor kind of be sincere

[01:25:52] sarcastic of poking at the ridiculousness that it is to be in this space of leaving evangelicalism

[01:25:59] and in evangelicalism and being queer and all these other identities that i carry um so yeah the very

[01:26:05] first chapter uh opens up with the fact that my friend's death was another key moment for me

[01:26:12] because i think that i was beginning to trust that there might be a god at some point in my life

[01:26:17] and then he died um all of a sudden i think it's the case for a lot of people it's not a new story

[01:26:22] in that regard um and that's one thing i've been discovering is like so many of my friends i never

[01:26:26] imagined picking this up um who are maybe still Christian they're straight are reading it and i

[01:26:33] think that there are some things like death that we can all relate to um there are questions

[01:26:39] like what the hell just happened when we pray for someone nothing happens um and what does that

[01:26:43] look like what does it mean to doubt what does it mean to have conflict with our friends and family

[01:26:47] that we've built a life with so those are all kind of the messy questions that i deal with in the

[01:26:52] memoir yeah awesome and also late drive books is one of our sponsors for our content warning

[01:26:58] event that we have coming up they're great we're big fans um i love them maybe we can get um

[01:27:04] David to bring a few copies of your book out to our event to sell that'd be fun yeah he should

[01:27:10] yeah yeah he'll be bringing books so good awesome so go out and get a copy of stumbling uh get your

[01:27:19] local bookstore to order it get your local library to order it we're big uh promoters in finding

[01:27:26] any reason to buy a book from an author we get to have here so hopefully folks will click the links

[01:27:32] in the show notes and do that if there is a social media we're all on like 97 social media

[01:27:38] these days if there's one that's like this is where i'm most active this is where i'm most engaged

[01:27:44] with you know people who are following and looking for book number two uh what is it and and

[01:27:50] how can people find you there yeah my handles across honestly most platforms is flan brand

[01:27:57] just imagine like an old person serial um and uh i would say instagram is probably the one that

[01:28:02] i've been gravitating around the most i was on tiktok for a hot second and just feels a little bit

[01:28:07] like a dumpster far away for some reason i don't know what happened it brought me so much joy

[01:28:12] and now it is just chaos and so um instagram is definitely more of the space that i live on these days

[01:28:19] so and then also braininflanery.com uh you a lot of my long form writing there because i do do

[01:28:25] journalistic pieces and stuff like that so um you can find stuff there as well awesome awesome

[01:28:31] well thanks so much for coming on yeah thank you guys so much for having me this was a great

[01:28:35] conversation it's been so good we cannot wait to have you back and uh really grateful that you

[01:28:41] took time to hang out with us today absolutely all right that was so good it was it's delightful

[01:28:53] i i really enjoyed that conversation i for lots of different reasons but

[01:28:59] i love how much nuance and how much like just like this like vibe and this like air of like

[01:29:09] we're we're still figuring this stuff out and and holding space and grace for people as they

[01:29:18] figured this stuff out and sort through the different aspects of trauma that all of us have been

[01:29:27] handed in different ways um going through the experiences that we have so um huge shout out to

[01:29:33] Brandon and i hope everyone who's listening runs to social media to follow him in all the places

[01:29:40] and hopefully to your local bookstore to order his book and to the library maybe maybe both you

[01:29:48] go to the local bookstore and go to your library and and see if they can put it on order for you there

[01:29:52] so that future people could check it out and uh get access to it as well

[01:29:57] awesome well where can people find you courtlands and the podcast yeah i'm i'm at courtly coffee all

[01:30:08] the places uh i'm trying to be on instagram primarily these days i'm back on twitter i'm back on like a

[01:30:14] like a like a habit i can't kick like a like a half-smoked pack of cigarettes that just keeps lying

[01:30:23] around waiting to be uh finished uh twitter you know there's just so many beautiful wonderful

[01:30:32] amazing people that i know on there so i am on i'm on there as well um and so is the pot

[01:30:37] thereafter podcast on instagram and threads thereafter pod on twitter patreon.com slash

[01:30:45] thereafter pod if you're looking to join the patreon um Megan what about you i am at the pursuing

[01:30:52] life i actually gave that as my because it's my email address at my email address is the pursuing

[01:30:58] life at gmail.com now everybody knows you can email me everything but all the things don't sign

[01:31:03] up for date though please don't go sign up for you which is somebody at um content warning and

[01:31:08] they said that sounds really evangelical and it's funny because i it was something that i carried

[01:31:15] through the construction the pursuing life it was pre and post and it still fits i feel like i'm

[01:31:20] still constantly pursuing a lot of different things but anyway the pursuing life instagram twitter

[01:31:26] yeah i'm on twitter i can't give it up i just can't um and um i guess i'm on thread sometimes

[01:31:34] and then check us out in the clubhouse on Tuesday morning six a.m pacific time and other times and

[01:31:40] other times on exactly exactly uh yeah i think that's it for us uh we've got a lot more incredible

[01:31:47] interviews uh in the hopper ready to get out to y'all so keep checking back uh work typically

[01:31:55] here with you episodes every Tuesday um so you can't wait for you to join us again for whatever comes

[01:32:02] next until next time until then