[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast.
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[00:00:07] It's the year 2024.
[00:00:12] A brand new year.
[00:00:15] Here with the future.
[00:00:17] Flying cars.
[00:00:20] Societal consciousness.
[00:00:22] And human harmony. extremism. Can you imagine repatriating all the black Americans that had to spoke about to Africa? Now this is the evidence. You want me to make an act of faith risking myself, my wife, my woman, my sisters, my children on some idealism which you are surely just to America which I have never seen.
[00:01:40] This is Profane Faith, a sure you could tell over the holidays. to introduce you to today and it's just great. And so I don't know, I love doing the show and the people I get to meet through as a result of Profane Faith is amazing. And the topics that we cover I think are very timely as well.
[00:04:21] Again, if you go back to the archive,
[00:04:23] you'll see some of the big ones,
[00:04:25] we covered Jesse Smollett,
[00:05:27] good stuff there for you. So I'm paying my bills so they should still be up on the server should still be there. But welcome here 2024. We are here. It's, you know, I am not big
[00:05:35] on New Year's resolutions. If you've listened to the show for a while, you know, I've talked
[00:05:40] about that as well. I won't have to beat a dead horse on that. But, you know, have something new, but I'm just simply talking about like, rather than getting stagnant. I feel like a lot of people who are the trumpers, who are the QAnon folks, who are the flat earthers, who, you know, just stagnated out. Right? At some point, it's like they went to wives, it needs to be burnt down to the ground and we can start over. We have enough minds to do that. But I don't wanna become stagnant and I think it's easy to become that. As I get older, this is my birthday year.
[00:08:20] So it's like, you turn another year.
[00:08:24] And that always is something in acknowledging, okay, this is where we're going.
[00:09:42] What can I reflect on? One of the reasons why I still like reading stuff that I don't agree with.
[00:10:44] Okay, let's just put that out there. If you hate, if you want to see my existence eradicated, if you want to see me subjugated
[00:10:51] to your power, under your power, then no, your opinion doesn't matter to me.
[00:10:57] It just doesn't, right?
[00:10:59] If you think that a certain percentage of people or certain people, you know, having barricades and stuff like that up. But nevertheless, I don't think we should be drowning people at the border, especially when you look at the history and of the folks who are coming across that border. We think about Venezuela, we think there's a lot there's not gonna be no history lesson podcast. But we at some point should be talking about, you know, what is happening, why so many folks from central and southern South America are wanting to come up this way. There's there, there has to be, it's not just because the US is, you know,
[00:13:45] just the greatest of all nations of ever. There like, hey, I love what you posted. She's talking about basically how she was made to the full, you know, a lot of these evangelical institutions, you know, want you to sign these covenants, these face statements. And the other was like, you know,
[00:15:00] to make sure you're part of the club.
[00:15:04] And oftentimes, you know, are you, are you, are you staying strong? Are you not having sex? Are you not beating your meat? You know, crazy shit like that. So when she posted this thing and talking about how she got fired because she wouldn't sign this because, you know, her own consciousness of just like, no, I'm not going to go against the folks that I've been called to serve and be engaged with.
[00:16:21] And they're like, all right, peace, you out.
[00:16:24] Um, that's just is awesome, especially awesome.
[00:17:41] When you get to record with somebody who has amazing gear.
[00:17:43] But anyways, her bi-vocational ministry background
[00:17:46] is in church planning. You know, my way of thinking was birth there. There are some great professors there. And there are people there who don't agree with that, but also I get when you have your livelihood about to be taken from you, you know, that's a lot. That's a lot. That evilness is runs deep, especially within,
[00:19:00] like I said, evangelicalism.
[00:19:01] White evangelicalism is especially that way, right?
[00:19:04] If you don't agree with us, we're gonna fire ass
[00:19:08] right on the spot. and being a full professor realizing that I'm part of a very, very small percentage of particularly black folks in higher education who have that status and that title. So, just a side note, I ain't forgot. This is just a lot of shit happening right now. And you know, we're just going to go keep going forward.
[00:20:23] So enjoy this conversation with the Ruse and I.
[00:20:25] Here we go. all the things in between. What a question. Yes. Oh man. My journey raised good old homeschooled kids, super conservative, adjacent to like Southern Baptists. Okay. Went into advertising and church planting. I did advertising agency world for about 10 years as a writer.
[00:21:42] Did the corporate thing at the same time I was helping plant churches in downtown Kansas
[00:21:47] City.
[00:21:48] Okay. but I'd be curious, aside from that, just like why professionalized church work? Yeah, I think I see, my heart is pulled in that way because I see that there are sacred rhythms to life. And a lot of times the busyness of our lives and running around doesn't allow space for that.
[00:23:00] And so being someone that curates a sacred space,
[00:23:04] people did it before me, they did it for me,
[00:23:06] and now I feel called to where you're at now. Like what some of that process might ever look like.
[00:24:20] Yeah.
[00:24:21] I think the beautiful thing about Fuller
[00:24:22] is that for the conservatives, it's too liberal.
[00:24:25] And for the liberals, that's a place. I mean, I'm originally from Pasadena. So it's like I get that people coming to SoCal and all that. So.
[00:25:40] I didn't know this was home for you.
[00:25:42] That's awesome.
[00:25:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:43] I still got my old 626 number, you know, that I keep and stuff,
[00:25:47] which always confuses people when I go back to LA. There was a woman who had gotten almost all the way through her program at Fuller and had felt very welcomed, but then someone in the financial department admissions saw that the name on her documents that she was married to a woman. And so I think it was just like a quarter left in her degree folks, I take my ordination vows very seriously. And that it goes up against what Fuller was asking me to sign. So that's why I was like, sorry, I can't sign it. What you gonna do about it? We went through a three month round and round,
[00:28:21] like meetings, process, policy.
[00:28:25] I gave them a legal writer.
[00:28:26] I tried to get, you know, it's like you always start working here. You know, what are the kinky things you like? I mean, I just feel like what is it about sexuality that Christianity, in particular evangelicalism, just gets asked backwards? Yeah, I think, and I'll be totally fair, I'm like in full respect of Fuller's right to religious freedom. Sure. I'm like, great of those tiers. So whatever they want to say about what people do with their bodies or their genitalia or whatever, they have to agree on that in order to get that tax exemption or the tax exemption, but also that exemption from honestly any other job would be taken to task over this. your story too. Yeah, I knew, even when I was a Deacon at a more conservative church in Kansas City, I had a lot of queer friends and I would have them over for bonfires. And I was like, there's something very honest and real about these people's stories. Like they're not trying or choosing to be gay,
[00:32:22] to be queer.
[00:32:24] They're just being honest with me about who they are.
[00:32:27] And so my circle started, Even things that they don't agree with. So I sat in that room and I was, you know, listening and reading those texts and I was like, oh shit, like some of the things that I've been experiencing that I thought were just normal for women who were heterosexual, other heterosexual women aren't having these thoughts, aren't having these conversations with themselves, aren't having these things in their prayer life.
[00:33:41] And so I was like, oh, I think I'm bisexual.
[00:33:44] And so I came out actually, I already know like, hey, just tell me like, no, I can't get into that or whatever. I totally get that. I've been subpoenaed enough from folks and been around enough situations where stuff was on the line. So I get that. But you know, if you can share, that would be great.
[00:35:00] Yeah, absolutely. I actually I wrote a letter to the legal counsel at Fuller. It went to the director of HR. The president was informed of my pending termination before it happened. So Fuller handled everything by the book, like Letter of the Law. It was handled very, very well.
[00:36:22] It's on the board of trustees that that gets me. I mean, especially since, you know, the American Psychological Association
[00:37:42] a while back even said like, no, we're not we're not saying gay people are mentally challenged. burn in hell, you know, and so there's, you know, even just how evangelical see the body. And so I'm with you on that, but I'd be curious how that came out for you and just how you saw some of that language or just some of those actions as well. If that makes sense. Yeah. I think when I come And so I just think, you know, are we supposed to just like put cameras in people's bedrooms to check up on them? Like, how is this actually supposed to be enforced? And how disrespectful of it of a behavior is that to look at the future pastors of America and say, we don't trust you to discern with
[00:40:23] the spirit and to discern with your governing body and with your denomination and with that I mean he'll come at you like he'll tell you what's up like you know I'm saying he'll hold you to the fire but it's like there's there's a sense of hey it's gonna have to be on you like even with the rich young ruler right I mean it wasn't just like oh you can follow me man that money? Even when I lived in LA, there were churches, the ones downtown, the old ones who were just like, we got an old congregation. So we rent these things out to Buddhist to Sikhs, just so we can keep the property, right? So from your perspective,
[00:43:03] because you're you're you're on the more on the going to be this transitional phase and this grief that is going to be need to be midwifeed by pastors who they're going to have to see that there's a role for being a midwife and bringing about the new birth. And there's also going to be a role for being a death doula and helping those churches die. Die well. That's where we see it.
[00:45:25] see their churches die, but those of us who have the resilience to walk by those folks,
[00:45:31] yeah, the death process is powerful. And out of that death comes new life. We've got a winter and then we've got a spring. So let's die well and let's pave the way for what's going to be birthed
[00:45:36] in the next season. Yeah, no, that's resonating right there. I think, well, it's one of the reasons
[00:45:42] why I don't do a lot of Christian conferences anymore will come back and be like, damn, we got rid of all the religion. Like what do we do now? Right? Like where do we go with that? I don't know. That's just, I'm just longer getting a paycheck from this source, but there's still this sense and need of, again, community coming together and really that informal, like, ah, we ain't got to, I mean, I don't know what y'all do, but no, we don't have to necessarily sing six hymnals
[00:48:21] and read some kind of orthopraxis type of liturgy.
[00:48:27] Let's just be, right? like, we're going to lose the religion or we're not going to know where to go or we're not going to have any rules or descriptions or doctrine or creedal agreement or all that stuff. I'm like, we've got the words of Jesus. That should be enough. That'll gather us together. And honestly, for some of these like radical, awesome, left-leaning people I hang out with who still are looking for a moral compass, the words of Christ ring very true to the way they're living their lives.
[00:50:51] beyond right, what you can see in front of you and not just accept, oh yeah, I know women can't preach and no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not, you know, it's a sin for this and a sin for that. How have you continued to develop? Does that make sense? That question.
[00:50:56] Yeah, absolutely. I think when I was church planting in Kansas City, the church plant fell apart. I mean, to be real honest with you, even while I was in seminary, it was hard for me to go to church. Because I did so, so hard. Right. And even, it's kind of a blessing now that I'm like, preaching regularly and pastoring, and I'm getting to be in the Word to prepare for these sermons. It's like reading a new Bible.
[00:52:20] It's just so beautiful.
[00:52:21] And so I'm just now getting in a place
[00:52:23] where when I go to the text, I don't feel condemned,
[00:52:27] where as I'm good, right? Yeah. But I'm learning to appreciate the season. Did you, did you have to shovel snow like probably for the first time when you moved out there? I did. I did. Yeah, it's the same in Kansas City. My folks are talking about like, it's just stop snowing. It did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was scary. The year I buy a snow blower is the year it stops snowing. I'm just saying you bastards in the weather. You knew it. You knew.
[00:55:02] I had given up the shovel. Um, so Ruth, tell me a little bit about just where you find ourselves? I mean, the some of the different I mean, we've always been divided as a country and people was like, Oh, we're all divided. Like, man, just go back and read, read the newspaper in 1978, when Carter was president and there was an oil embargo on our other people. We were we were divided. Maybe it wasn't as public because we didn't have Twitter or Instagram to yell about it. But it was there. So I'd be curious what you think
[00:57:21] time for that is coming to an end. Yeah.
[00:57:22] And they're gonna hold, you know,
[00:57:24] Jen Alpha is gonna hold us accountable.
[00:57:26] They're taking us to task.
[00:57:27] So that's the conversation I'm seeing happen right now.
[00:57:30] They're kind of ready for a real democracy
[00:57:35] and they're done playing this faux democracy
[00:57:37] that we've been all saying is good enough.
[00:57:39] So yeah, it's gonna be really rough
[00:57:42] another four years of Trump.
[00:57:44] I'm almost, unless he gets like, you know,
[00:57:46] unless the law takes course and then how we translate that in public life. We should not be about power and we're fucking it up because that's where we're going. And so it's sad. It makes me really, really sad. I see a country of people calling themselves Christians with no Christian behavior in their
[00:59:00] blood.
[00:59:01] Right.
[00:59:02] Yeah.
[00:59:03] I mean, isn't it?
[00:59:04] That's part of the interesting one. So, you know, popular right now. Thank you. I'm saying, man, they help me sleep. I'm just going to say. Yeah. No, for real, for real. So I mean, I don't know. I mean, how it is in your job, you know, in terms of, you know, who you come in contact with, has there been any like hostility? I mean, I know right now I feel like anyone who stands up against some of these factions
[01:00:23] of power, right?
[01:00:26] You're not only met with people who say, Oh, I disagree with If they come up from Orange County, that's when I get nervous. Yes, yes. No, it's interesting. I think I've been a little, I don't want to say deluded, but sheltered from some of the consequences of speaking out, because as I've stepped into this new theology that the spirit has called me into in Southern
[01:01:43] California, we're a pretty progressive part of the country. And even to take it out of a political conversation, this isn't left and right. This is just like human rights. Yeah, absolutely. Just people being allowed to live. So yeah, I think I forget. And when I was in Kansas City, that's where I was raised, Kansas is not exactly on the
[01:03:05] cutting edge of much. somebody else at Fuller right now in the same situation, same predicament, same context. What would you want to say to somebody and empower at Fuller? Yeah. I think one of the biggest things is that there are a lot, well, that's a president's job. He's the liaison. He's supposed to, I'm like, that's ridiculous. The board is huge. There's like 15 people on that board. They've got email addresses. They can reach out to us and get to know us. So I'd say listen to the stories, open up those lines of communication and don't put it all in the president.
[01:05:40] That's ridiculous.
[01:05:41] Plus he's the first black president
[01:05:43] Fuller has ever had.
[01:05:45] That is a massive undertaking on its own.
[01:05:47] Fuller has not exactly been known to be kind. You know, that's, that's a big, right? I mean, cause it's like, I think we're a lot of these organizations get us is, I gotta pay my rent. I gotta pay my mortgage. I got, I got a kid. I got a kid on the way or I just got married or I just moved here, right? And so there are these major life things, right? When you start thinking about just living in a neo-capitalist society where everything's on sale, right?
[01:07:03] One can't afford to not have that.
[01:07:07] It's like I always tell students, like, look, left and right had I been another dude and there were other dudes that came and that did that and then ended up getting divorced um it would it would have taken a different way but again who was talking about that who was monitoring that again you know who was the admissions counselor was was making passes that I was like oh what the industry is like, oh no, we need to hire her. Her voice sounds amazing. We need to bring her on the next episode of the Marvel Universe, shoot. Aw, that's so kind. Yeah, my website's hayruth.com. Perfect, perfect. You can find everything you want there.
[01:09:40] And if you want all the documents about my correspondence
[01:09:42] with Full-Roc Seminary, that's at my link tree.
[01:09:44] So just go to link your time with us. Seriously, Dan, Gail, Jessica, Kathleen, Scott, and the rest of us here at the Dauntless Media Collective couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without your support. I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation. Right now, there are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective
[01:11:03] Discord server.
[01:11:05] If you're interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing