[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast.
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[00:00:07] Hey folks, you know who's back.
[00:00:10] He makes an appearance once a season, at least.
[00:00:14] My good man friend, JR Forest Steros.
[00:00:18] Yo, you already know this is going to be dope AF.
[00:00:22] Come on listen in, check it out, you already know our JR.
[00:00:25] If you don't know JR, then click on we won't be trying to answer difficult questions.
[00:01:40] Rather, we'll be engaging them and asking better ones regarding faith, race,
[00:01:45] gender and religion. I'll be, whoa. If you're in Chicago and winter is a great time to visit Texas, I'm just saying it really is. I was wearing shorts, fam shorts in January. So that was that was felt good. It felt really good. But yeah, I can't just up. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, you know, it has been it has been quite the quite
[00:03:03] the tumultuous time for Texans. But one that did pass is one that authorizes schools to hire chaplains in addition to, or even in lieu of guidance counselors. And the best part of that bill, and best of course is, you being used deeply ironically there,
[00:04:20] is that there are no qualifications
[00:04:21] for what this chaplain should have.
[00:04:24] So I mean, for instance, for instance,
[00:04:26] if you want to be posted in schools. And so some Yeah, and so I can imagine I can imagine the the the folks who are conservative slash fundamentalist Christians who are behind a lot of the push for these laws Sort of seeing the laws come to come back to bite them in a way that they they didn't anticipate right? Right, right. Well, I mean, I think that's I mean and me knows and those are prime examples right of when you talk about religious freedom
[00:07:04] I mean, it's it's usually mad
[00:07:07] It's usually you man, some material because there's a wealth of that out there. But I'm curious to know how are you as a pastor surviving these things and the trials and tribulations of being in a southern place? Although I will say Dallas is there's you took me some very progressive places when we were there and I will say that's that's some uniqueness.
[00:08:21] I wish I had grown up in cities like that in Texas.
[00:08:24] I think my my view of Texas would be a lot different had I grown up in places
[00:09:24] that completely randomly was got interviewed by National News Network. I was there talking head in Texas as a pastor who said,
[00:09:26] who was against the Ten Commandments Bill?
[00:09:29] They apparently thought that was strange that there'd be
[00:09:31] an evangelical white Texas pastor who didn't think it was a good idea
[00:09:34] to post Ten Commandments in the classrooms.
[00:09:37] And so when I shared both of those, the interview and article,
[00:09:43] again, a lot of support, a lot of people sharing those things,
[00:09:46] a lot of engagement. the issue of the gays. And he said that he was gonna post it at the end of the month. And if you did not fill out the survey, silence would be considered endorsement. And he would tell, he would post that your church supported it if you didn't say anything. Wow, just like Jesus did way back, you know what I'm saying?
[00:11:02] Totally, right?
[00:11:04] Now, again, I'm very publicly affirming.
[00:11:07] Yeah. I crafted a very nice but pretty direct email back to all of the pastors. I was just like, let's remember that people like this are not worth our time and we have good work to do. I'm just reminding you that you don't need to respond to this.
[00:12:20] And it turned into this whole thing where the guy and I went back and forth several
[00:12:23] times and I suggested that he maybe doesn't know Jesus as well as irritated as I got about that email and all of the subsequent conversations, and as much time as it took out of my week to deal with all of that, at the end of the day, there was nothing at stake for me there because I'm a cis hetero pastor who could have just
[00:13:40] ignored everything and, you know, gone on.
[00:13:42] And for a number of our citizens, uh, it's really know, yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. Like the bar is incredibly low. And it's sad that a pastor doing frankly, as little as I did during Pride means so much. Man, that's the best. So, yeah, no, no, I mean, go ahead.
[00:16:02] or what are we going to do? I mean, I think about, you know, like here a couple weeks ago,
[00:16:05] I mentioned this on the show a while back
[00:16:07] that, you know, we got over 24 hour period,
[00:16:09] we got over five and a half inches of rain,
[00:16:11] you know, just dropped it.
[00:16:11] Like we're dry, we were dry, drought, the whole thing,
[00:16:15] water restrictions are on the horizon
[00:16:17] and then like five and, you know, plus inches of water
[00:16:20] in less than 24 hour periods.
[00:16:21] So, and right now, at least as we're recording this,
[00:16:25] I know on the East Coast, Connecticut, places like that,
[00:16:27] you know, they're at least a purple state. If not, if not pretty close, like leaning blue, the problem is it's voters suppressed and gerrymandered, you know, um, the, the 2020 election should not have been as close as it wasn't close once all the numbers were in, but it
[00:17:40] should not have been as close as it was.
[00:17:42] Um, the, the, the GOP has spent 40 years, again, I go back to the civil rights movement. Things changed because people put their bodies on the line and made the invisible visible. That was the whole purpose. I mean, that's what Gandhi did in India. That's what King and all of the civil rights leaders did there was making the invisible visible. I think that's a lot of what BLM has been trying to do as the various components of that movement with policing and with mass incarceration. It's taking all of these structures that are present in our society that people just assume is the way things are. And then trying to make them visible. Andra Henry, who I know you've had on the show,
[00:20:21] is terrific. This is his things don't, it doesn't have to be this way. It's his mantra.
[00:21:27] question did that much. And it just seems to me like we have a greater percentage of people in this late stage capitalistic system that we have who are saying, well, how did this happen? And
[00:21:32] does it have to be this way? Well, it wasn't always that, you know, who are at least asking
[00:21:38] if it can be changed, which then I hope leads to how it might be changed, which then I hope can lead Babies happened right the way. Oh what they thought happened when a when a penis went into a vagina Right like what they even thought a penis in a vagina work like right like all of those things are so different assumptions are so different That what we tend to do is take the take the tip of the iceberg text and take it from the iceberg of the ancient world And plop it on to the iceberg of our modern world and assume that because because the translators used our modern words that the ideas
[00:24:04] translator chose the words that are the same, then it must mean the same thing and it just does it, right? But that's hard. And that takes a lot of work, particularly if like me,
[00:24:11] you're a cishetero person who's never had to question these things, right? Who doesn't
[00:24:16] doesn't really have a dog in this fight because, you know, no matter what, I'm fine. No one's
[00:24:23] ever wondered whether the way I have sex is moral know, voter suppression. I mean, that shit happens here in Illinois as well, right? And we're seeing, we're seeing the consequences of that with the overturning of row, with the denial of affirmative action and college admission. I mean, right. We're seeing, we're seeing, I look, I, I apologize in advance.
[00:25:41] I just read a quote a couple of days ago. I already forgot where I read it or who
[00:25:45] said it. So please tell me, it's all good.
[00:26:42] but they access to it. How am I?
[00:26:45] I mean, because I'm, and I'm genuinely asking because I,
[00:26:48] this is something that I wrestle with a lot.
[00:26:50] I would say on a daily basis,
[00:26:52] these things that kind of just ruminate in my mind.
[00:26:55] And I cogitate on very, very often throughout the day of like,
[00:27:02] what institutionalizes change?
[00:27:04] I remember, you know, I I'm reflecting on that in 2022. And I'm like, damn, it's been three decades since that, man. Like, and I know I'm getting old, but it's like the same time, I'm not that old. Like, I'm like, wait a minute, three decades has passed. And I'm just, I feel like I'm slipping ground. Our coach used to make us run hills. We called him hills, basically, I grew up,
[00:28:21] and there were sand dunes all over the place, right?
[00:28:23] But literally my high school is right on the ocean.
[00:28:25] And so sand d see is like, okay, why I've had to, you know, build all these these bricks together. I'm just, I feel like that can be taken so quickly. One wrong move, one wrong investment on my end. Yeah. And I will be on the streets
[00:29:40] again. Like there's no, there's no catch net for that. Does that
[00:29:44] make sense? You know what I'm saying? With all that? I guess I He is the one who popularized, maybe not. So Brian, forgive me if you're not. But I think he is the one who popularized the metaphor of the exile for the American church right now. Okay, okay. And so what, and our denomination has taken it and run with it, I've heard it from a number
[00:31:01] of our denominational leaders.
[00:31:03] But again, white evangelicals in particular
[00:31:06] have this persecution complex and this, comfortable with the surrounding culture who is relying on the power of the surrounding culture to keep them, I'll say us, to keep Moore Oh, you know, I don't know how many times I saw people on Twitter saying I'm here for woke Beth Moore
[00:33:45] Yeah, like I mean someone who who for the most vulnerable. They're completely uninterested. In fact, they're making moves to do quite the opposite, right? They're shoring up the bunkers and preparing for, you know, an all-out culture war on some of this stuff. Right, right. And so,
[00:35:02] this is not an answer to your question. It's just, honestly,
[00:35:04] I've been hanging out in the harlot of Babylon for the censors. And there's a time when the beast turns into Bowersher.
[00:36:20] And then there's this great funeral that's held where all of those who profited from
[00:36:25] her exploitation and oppression lament.
[00:36:28] Yeah. How many people know that if you're pulled over by a police officer, you'd rather be white than black, right? How many people know that they see two men out and they're walking next to each other and you don't have any idea whether they're gay or not. And if they are gay, whether they're married or not. And that doesn't affect your hetero marriage either way, right?
[00:37:41] Like, there's no, like, everyone knows this stuff, but we just pretend we don't know
[00:37:45] it. injustices that we or if you're like me who's at the top of the social pyramid, people that we love face and we can't. Like sitting with our fingers stuffed in our ears and eyes closed and singing at the top of our lungs is not an option. You know, so we try as best we can to bear faithful witness. And that's why I said like do the, I think for me at least,
[00:39:02] it's like doing the hard work of figuring I go to a our American Academy religion. He made it out one year. And I'm very thankful that he did because a lifelong, at least from the sin, and I'm pretty sure he would say
[00:40:21] it on that and as well. Friendship has been cultivated. And that's what I can say I respect a lot about Brother JR. He is a he continues on. And I love to hear and I love to see just really where the next chapter and next next era for him takes him, particularly with where he finds himself in a state that is
[00:42:43] an amazing person. In fact, I should probably get her on the show because her life alone, I mean, she's doing amazing things. She's working as a therapist. She's also a roller derby person.
[00:42:53] She's doing amazing things. I had a chance to meet their friends, their family, their community,
[00:42:57] and you know, house just blown away. It was just nice to be in 50, 60 degree weather in February,
[00:43:02] or actually January, it was early January. So it was nice to go down there and just spend some time show up and we'll hook it up. You know what I'm saying fam? Check out the rest of this interview with us. But first, a word from some of our sponsors.
[00:45:40] Then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smack where justice is needed in order to bring about true mutuality. I hope you'll join us for some enlightening, fun, and at times uncomfortable conversations as we envision a world where everyone can live free from systems and structures that keep us from being truly equal. You can find us on your favorite podcast app or visit our website, fullmutuality.com, to find a list of all the platforms we're available on.
[00:45:43] Subscribe today and we'll see you
[00:45:45] on the Full Mutuality Podcast. general deconstruction conversations, some meme sharing, therapeutic venting about whatever religious bullshit you're currently dealing with, and even a channel specifically devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the podcast you're listening to right now. I hope you'll join us. You can log in directly to the Dauntless server by clicking the link in the show notes, or heading to Dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top banner.
[00:47:03] See you there. say, okay, if you've got that kind of power, yeah, Lee, the science behind that, that's you know, systems like really? But I don't know. I mean, what do you think theologically, man? Yeah, I mean, this, this is, this is a total part of Kill. But she's the goddess of the primordial waters, right? So she represents sort of uncreation. She represents chaos and disorder and death in a lot the water, right? The skies above the skies and the waters below the skies, and then the land and the sea. And then on days four, five, and six, you get the filling of the forms. So for light and dark, you get the sun and the moon and the stars, for the waters and the skies, you get the birds and the fish, and then for the land, you get the animals and then ultimately the people.
[00:51:00] And the difference, which again,
[00:51:04] I think is so significant for the Hebrews
[00:52:07] I think that aligns really well with our understanding of goddess triune as well, where we have the father and the son expressing this self-giving holy love to each other that then basically splashes
[00:52:14] out and overflows into what we call the Holy Spirit, right? Where I again, another quote that I read,
[00:52:21] this is from one of my favorite of our Nazareth invitation to us. And that, I think that sucks
[00:53:42] because I would love honestly,
[00:53:45] if I'm being see myself through the sort of like outside objective lens of God and so as much as I As much as I say that I want God the dictator to come down and smash the people that need smashing. I'm also pretty sure that includes me and
[00:56:07] and I think about just the amount of things that we as collectively write as a species, humanity, or you know
[00:56:09] that we don't get in
[00:56:13] and also
[00:56:18] write that that gentleness because I do think there is something you know to that I
[00:56:24] You know and these are the questions. I think they come up a correlations in current pop culture theology? I'm just finishing up the new season of black mirror demons demon 79 was
[00:57:41] Was was
[00:57:44] Killing me man killing me. I was like wow
[00:58:43] Well, it was inspirational regardless. I was like man. I got get my e-reader out man
[00:58:52] Good shit right here, man. I will I will fully give that to my wife. That was her that was her innovation there
[00:58:53] Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:58:55] I mean guardians the galaxy right volume three what your thoughts and by the way for those of you listening
[00:59:00] You're not following jr on on Instagram
[00:59:03] You really have to the snapshots that you give and ratings that you give of different films is literally brought back to life by Adam Warlock in a explicit recreation of Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam, where Adam Warlock is reaching out as God and touching Star Lord's finger, right? So I'm like, before that, I'm like, I'm like, this feels, but maybe I'm just that guy
[01:00:20] that reads too much into it.
[01:00:21] And then that happened and I was like,
[01:00:22] okay, like we're not being subtle anymore.
[01:00:26] You know?
[01:00:26] But we have relativelyx, the dad, right? And we know from the first movie that that's his whole thing was revenge for his family, right? And now he's brought into this new way to be a father
[01:01:43] to all of these kids, which is just beautiful, right?
[01:01:46] We have Nebula who literally feels like she was But instead he can wear it as a badge of honor as he's a survivor. He's going to live in honor of his friends and their memory. And he's going to be what he is to celebrate them and to honor them. And so then he becomes a leader instead of the kind of like the guy that's always like joking and picking and kind of causing problems.
[01:03:03] He becomes the one who's the leader, which we've known.
[01:03:07] He's always had in it, right? to where we have you find out your dad's a God and that has implications for you. Right. Right. Right. There's like a real nearby Jesus allegory there. Right. And yet he doesn't. He does it when we're doing this like other sort of thing, you know, and it is about creation. It is about, you know, what is it? The high evolutionary says something about like,
[01:04:20] there is no God, I am God or something. I mean, there's, yeah, there's plenty of God talk in there,
[01:04:24] but that, but again, the themes are much more intimate than what we've seen in preview. Exorcist cuz I was like I know you are gonna be first one in line to you know to see this one and stuff man you know that movie was Pretty mediocre. Yeah Russell Crowe man. She was having the time of his life. Yeah Yeah
[01:05:43] I look people people know me know I love horror until he's facing the demons. And then even then with the demons, he's just like, he's a professional. Like you get the idea that this dude does this for a living, right? And so it's not like, like, I don't know if folks have seen the Conjuring movies where Ed and Lauren Warren are like, quote unquote forced to do it
[01:07:01] because the church won't send, they're like,
[01:07:02] well, we're not qualified, but we'll try our best.
[01:07:05] You know, no, this guy's like, this, like he gets up
[01:07:07] and he's demons for breakfast, right? Oh man, it has been always as always been amazing talking with you and just just going around been a little bit thank you for taking the time out and Coming on the show and sharing your knowledge with you as always where can folks find you? What do you you know? Where were you at on the interwebs and and all that good stuff? Because I know you got that that you writing for sojourners, which I think I want to make sure plug that as well, too
[01:08:24] Yeah, I think since the last time I've been on the fascinating podcast is on a break right now But I will say if you enjoyed this conversation Dan and I had you will really like the most recent episode in our feed Which is an interview with a YA author named Gracie Kim We talked about Korean mythology and how that how that makes us think about
[01:09:41] storytelling and how that connects to questions about God and the universe and everything so
[01:10:47] break so to speak. Given that the show is now two weeks, every other week I should say, excuse me, rather I figured this is a good point to pause in the season, still season
[01:10:54] seven so we're going to take some time off and come back probably early fall. Just a
[01:11:00] group, get things together, line up some new guests, all that good stuff between all the