WTF is up with the Proverbs 31 Woman?

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[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, welcome everyone to Not Safe for Worship.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: This week we are actually going to dust off our Bibles and look at the Proverbs 31 Woman

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: because I feel like that was used quite a bit to teach really terrible things.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: No among us has not felt inferior to the Proverbs 31 Woman.

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and if you were treated as a guy in church then you were told to look for a Proverbs 31 Woman,

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: which is upheld as the example of biblical womanhood,

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_02]: even though there's not a single woman in the Bible who actually does it all that is in that verse,

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: which makes a lot of sense, which we'll get into in a minute.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But the Proverbs 31 Woman was never supposed to be something to be emulated.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: No, and well, the fascinating thing as I was reading through this passage is that there are a couple of really great snippets in here,

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but the way the Proverbs 31 Woman generally to me sounds like she's dying inside.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not something I'm forced to emulate.

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, she's at least overworked.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a minimum.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Before we look at it, you got the full biblical womanhood instruction.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm curious, how was Proverbs 31 taught to you as a perceived woman?

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you are a woman.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, perceived and actual. No, that's perfect.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to remember diving into this passage exactly.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just what I really remember clearly is so much of this language.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, this verse about charm is deceitful and media is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord will be praised.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: That one comes up a ton.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I know that we studied the passage a few times, but I just remember these general concepts coming up all the time.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you remember the Wild at Heart captivating era?

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Everybody was reading these books.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I do remember that.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't read them because men weren't told to read those books because they're not for men.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Wild at Heart was meant for young boys.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they came out with captivating, which was meant for young girls.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And that book talked a lot about the language used in Genesis and the fact that when the woman was created,

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the word used was help meet like a mate that is a helper and needs your needs and helps you further your mission, essentially.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And this was really a model.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that there was a lot of Proverbs 31 concepts in there, but it feels like it was just kind of this overarching as much as I don't remember diving into specific things.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember the O Proverbs 31 woman.

[00:04:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to do it with the Proverbs 31 woman.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It's more of the concept.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of us knew what that meant.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_02]: The concept was sold, but not an actual look at what that was.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of how I remember it too.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I was with so much of theology.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But I never read Wild at Heart.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I read every young man's battle or every man's battle.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't read the adult one.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was, yeah.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But I like to say that I lost every man's battle.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You did.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And by losing the man's battle, you won the war.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I captivated.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: We talked about this before we started recording.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I am working on a 69 day irreverent devotional.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: One of my, one of my like working titles for that at one point was captivating as fuck.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I think you should keep it.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what the title might be, but that's.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh my God.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure I'll use it for something.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Actually, I have a t-shirt design on red bubble that just says captivating AF and it's like all in like the swirly cursive.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: People can actually go buy a t-shirt that says captivating AF.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, we should have merch.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_03]: We do need merch.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_03]: That would be so much fun.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here we go.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The proverbs 31 woman.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, contextually, we're really only looking at the last 21 verses of the chapter.

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But if we look at the heading, it's a queen mother, right?

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That's teaching this.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Teaching it to King Lemuel.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's her.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's Lemuel.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:07:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Who knows?

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Lemuel.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Lemuel.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Lemuel.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a French mule.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's Lemuel.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Lemuel.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that sounds weird.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Which is interesting because nobody knows who that actually is.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I know, right?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Who is this King Lemuel?

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a really interesting, this is a weird shift too.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the beginning of the passage, it's like avoid strong women.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Be scared.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Run away.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the rest of it is like, man, we love a strong woman.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't, it's interesting.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Because verse three is do not give your strength to women or your ways that

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: which destroy kings.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Which right?

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But then like we, but then in verse 11, the heart of her husband trusts in her.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And she guards herself with strength over here in verse 17.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just, this is, it's an interesting, I feel like the voice

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: changes so distinctly somewhere between verse nine and verse 10.

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But this is, you know, the entire passage theoretically is this teaching from

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: King Lemuel's mother.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I mean a little back backstory of Proverbs.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the enticement of women is very rarely actually used for women.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's metaphor for being enticed by other.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: By other kingdoms is really what it is.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I even, I did a, I did a strip theology Thursday episode on one passage specifically,

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: which was like, it's this passage that describes this woman that's being very

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: seductive and like cheating on her husband while he's away and stuff and like enticing

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: the person in.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: But then it switches and it makes it clear that it's actually a metaphor for relying on

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: other kings.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's not actually about women.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It's using a, granted a very misogynistic metaphor, but it is still a metaphor for

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_02]: like not relying on these foreign powers that are stronger than you that are

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: promising like all these things.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: If you like join them in the political unity because they're going to turn their

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: back on you and destroy you and take it.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, don't be enticed by the promise of power.

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a different kind of kind of strength.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: That makes sense.

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But 10 through 31 that's really the ode to the, to the capable wife or to the wise

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: woman or to the kind of, depending on who you ask.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Any description of a worthy woman?

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: A worthy woman.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_02]: A worthy woman.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Interesting.

[00:10:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think it's really fascinating.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the key themes of Proverbs is wisdom and it opens with woman wisdom

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and then ends with woman wisdom.

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the passage in the Bible that's talking about wisdom, they just

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: couldn't stay away from the women.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, like we bookended it.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They knew.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So actually that is super interesting also because in a lot of Jewish rabbinic

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: teaching, it's not necessarily teaching it some thing.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: What is that word?

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a specific word for it that I'm not thinking of.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyways, they, a lot of times the spirit, God's wisdom that these are

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_02]: interchangeable ideas is something to be pursued like a man pursues a woman.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It is something to kind of in a way lust after in like a sometimes less than

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_02]: metaphorical way.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_02]: But still like, yeah.

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: There's so much of that kind of romantic imagery in the Bible.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You've got, you know, the church is the bride of Christ and on the wedding night

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: specifically.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Very, very spicy.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like and also, you know, like, like you're mentioning here.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So just a little tidbit maybe to think on it and like why?

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Why are we beginning and ending with women when we're talking about being

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: wise?

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Like maybe also just like a little tidbit to reflect on.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Just listen to the women in your life.

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But okay, so Proverbs 31 woman so interesting that there are so many

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: ways to read this, right?

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: There people think of this different.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_01]: This happens with all scripture when we're translating it, right?

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So some people might believe that this is like a picture of the perfect

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Israelite woman, right?

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And that this is something that we're supposed to strive after and that

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: because she is so devoted to God, that's where all of this virtue is

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: stemming from.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, some people would say that instead this is kind of a woman

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that's meant to personify, you know, God's wisdom and his active

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: involvement in the world, the ongoing involvement.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: People talk about the idea that maybe this is referencing a prophet,

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: which I that seems far fetched to me.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's the interesting commentary I read a little bit about

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: the this idea that it kind of she's she's taking on a lot of the

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_01]: tasks of a king.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the idea that perhaps she's this is kind of like this woman

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: of the household is is how in her social context, she's she's

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of replacing the vanished monarchy as the the ruler of the

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: home almost.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought that was an interesting take.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: That's an interesting take.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, in a lot of ways I agree with it, but it sounds like at that

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: end, it like switches it back to being a little patriarchal still.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and it is patriarchal.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if we look at it, it's really interesting because of

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: course, we're talking about this like very enterprising woman

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and who's so capable and who's doing all this stuff.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And then of course, in verse 23, we have to interject though

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: but her husband is known at the city gates and like he takes

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: his name among the elders, but she's back there like making

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: linen garments.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And at the end it's would you give her a share in the fruit of

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: her hands?

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Let her works praise her in the city gate.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's like, yeah, she's doing all this shit.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But like in verse 23, we just have to remind you that her

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: husband is the important one.

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, her husband.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But basically like because she she buys property starts a

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: vineyard she becomes her own like business woman, which buying

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: property isn't.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: These are things that are that men do in this gender norm.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's this is not a woman's role in the culture.

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And so not only is she doing like the stereotypical female

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_02]: role, she's also doing the stereotypical male role and

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and then her husband gets all of those recognition.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, of course.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And these aren't but these aren't private roles either like to go

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: out and buy land and to grow a vineyard and to be selling linen

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: garments and to be supplying merchants with sashes like all

[00:16:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of these things that she's doing they're very public, public

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_01]: things.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Again we talked about is this meant to be a passage to be

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: emulated?

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Could this even have been emulated?

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I you would know more about the historical context, but how

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: far could a woman I mean, could she go and buy land without

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: her husband?

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that even feasible?

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's yeah.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_02]: If she's married.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Probably not really because the wealth wouldn't belong to

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: her.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So if she's not married then it would be her father or

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: brother right.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_02]: There there are some like cultural context cultural things

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: where if like a father dies then daughters can get at least

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: part of an inheritance and so they could be unmarried with

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: some property or with some wealth.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be super rare because as we've talked about like women

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_02]: are seen as property and are meant to be married off.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And if she ever got married after that fact what she

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: owns would then become her husband's.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So in the working classes though if a woman did have some sort of

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: enterprise of her own and was not married whether she was linked

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: to her family or not theoretically would that money be

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: hers?

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Or does it belong to your family unless you're just completely

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_01]: unattached?

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's hard to say completely for certain.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Generally speaking it's not your money unless you're

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: completely unattached.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean you have to be unmarried.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah I mean that doesn't mean that people didn't make it by

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: like we actually see in the Bible that independent women do

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_02]: do things on their own.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Deborah became a literal general and a judge.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: She clearly was able to break out of some gender stereotypes

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_02]: there.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But especially once you've made it through the establishment

[00:18:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of the kingdom and you have more solidified cultural

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: expectations plus the influence of larger civilizations

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: like Babylon and Persia which are gaining more cultural

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: influence in the area a lot of the cultural norms are

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: going to be solidified by the time that this is written

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: as opposed to like when Deborah was there when Canaan was

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: almost entirely not it didn't have an overarching ruler.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just this area of land with a bunch of basically

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_02]: city-states.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah the history makes a difference.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the nature of the literature probably also

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: should make a difference in how we read this.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And again you had mentioned you know this isn't wasn't

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily something that was meant to be emulated and

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you know the proverbs these are these are poetry and so

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing that there is an unliteral meaning underneath

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of this that we're missing when we just read this as

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: some sort of a guide.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Actually this is an acrostic poem right the each line begins

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: with a successive letter of the Hebrew alphabet is that

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: right?

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh I don't actually know.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to say that Proverbs 31 maybe so again when you're

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: following a literary form like that that you're going

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to end up with a lot of figurative language I would

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_05]: imagine.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_05]: It's bad.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah it actually it does I didn't know this I should have

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_05]: done this but I did not.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You can't know everything.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I can know everything.

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_01]: No listen I'm autistic I can know everything about one

[00:20:21] [SPEAKER_01]: thing at a time personally.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so I'm looking through the alphabet.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm guessing the way that it is written is just

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_01]: really really affects how it needs to be read and I

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: myself do not read Hebrew so I can't say that much about

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the original language here but I'm guessing that you can

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: give us more context on so you said wasn't something

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to be emulated on what it actually was.

[00:21:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so specifically to Proverbs 31 I'm not.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Poetry is so difficult because especially if we come

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_02]: from a literalistic understanding of scripture which

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_02]: most people that were raised evangelical have

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_02]: but a general rule that I go by if it's poetry do not

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: make theology from it.

[00:21:27] [SPEAKER_01]: This is so important while we're on this topic let's

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: just go ahead and dive into this topic for a minute

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: because anytime we look at a biblical passage I feel

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: like this is so important to know.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Y'all the Bible was not all written in one day by

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the same person and it's not all the same genre.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: There are different books and when we say books we do

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: mean books so we've got poetry we have apocryphal

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: books we have history we have genealogy and

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you need to read you don't read a genealogy

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the same way you read poetry.

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's very very important I think to kind of get some

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_01]: context behind what you're looking at if you really

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: want to dig into what this says about practical theology

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's fine to read this as a poem and be like oh that's

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: lovely but if we're going to actually try and take

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_01]: this like Christianity has for so many years and

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: apply it to a woman and be like this is what a

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_01]: godly woman should look like it's well okay we

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: need to take a few more steps I think to understand

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: what we're reading and what's actually being said

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and so that's really important context that we are

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_01]: in a book right now of poetry and the main

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: focus of this book is wisdom versus folly and

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a lot of symbolism in poetry there's

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot going on under the surface so anytime

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you're looking at any serious theological study

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's really important know what you're

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: reading so tell us more about the poem.

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_05]: So poetry wise they're trying to do.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Um, sorry little break there because I'm

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: collecting my thoughts which aren't

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: necessarily the best for podcasting.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You know we are very much a conversational

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: style podcast we think about things before

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: we get on here but then I love to surprise

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: our with questions like what do you think they're

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to do as if that's just like such a

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: flippant easy thing to answer.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So take your time.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Would you like some thinking music?

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah that definitely do it.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so I think in a lot of ways like because

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: this is going to be my own interpretation I don't

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: know anybody else who has this understanding so

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_02]: well we'll do with that what we will know maybe

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the only one that's right probably not.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be because because there is a motif

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_02]: of like being seduced by women and things like

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that throughout the book of Proverbs and

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_02]: they're all used met they're almost entirely

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_02]: used metaphorically right.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometimes that's harder to see than other times

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because we have been given interpretations

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that want to take things literal but this is a

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: wisdom book it's not mid most the time when it

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_02]: talks about a subject it's not actually talking

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_02]: about that subject you're supposed to apply

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: it to something else.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: There is a thing behind the thing.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So in my personal kind of belief on this is

[00:24:57] [SPEAKER_02]: like this is a reframing of like the stuff

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the things that you're supposed to like kind

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_02]: of pursue yourself you're supposed to pursue

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: things that will lead to you being

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: respected being respected at the gate right

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: in its own words but like yeah things that

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: are supposed to be that are something

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that's actually worth like pursuing like she

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_02]: extends her hand to the poor she stretches

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_02]: out her hands to the need like this is

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: supposed to be an understanding of things

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_02]: that were that we're supposed to pursue

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that are like generally good things being

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_02]: able to like do a business thing and

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: have it expand like spies afield and

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: plants a vineyard right like these are

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: just kind of things that are helpful

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: towards you especially in an ancient context

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_02]: of like trying to pursue things that are

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_02]: that are actually beneficial and not

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to pursue power because a lot of

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_02]: what Proverbs is about is pursuing

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: power and so it in a lot of ways

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not necessarily supposed to be

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_02]: like finding this ideal woman person

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: or say it's about like seeking it's

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_02]: about seeking wisdom and having an

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_02]: intimate relationship with wisdom in a

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_02]: way that it been actually is beneficial

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_02]: for you and not just seeking power

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_02]: which is what women represent elsewhere

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_02]: in Proverbs so.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know I'm sure that someone

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: probably has come up with this

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: before but it's definitely not one

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: that I've heard and I do like

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you know make some sense

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: fits for me these are all separate

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: things that we could aspire to but

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: not necessarily a picture of what you

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: have to be as a whole human.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's really important

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to note that yes they talk about

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: the idea that she

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: gerds herself with strength

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but that can also be seen

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: well it is I'm sure a lot of that has

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to do with moral strength and not just

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: physical strength in and she

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: perceives that her merchandise is

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: profitable she looks well to the

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: ways of her household like this is

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a woman who just she believes that

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: she's capable she's minding the

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: ways of her household she's caring

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: for the people around her she's not

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: obsessed with power her husband is

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the one who's known at the city gates

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: what she's doing is

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_01]: opening her hands to the poor and

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: reaching out her hands to the needy

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: like those those are vital aspects

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: of this as well and I

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know I think I don't think

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just about

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you got to get up while it's still

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_01]: dark and bake that bread for your

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: husband

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: at all but this kind of picture

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: instead of someone who

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe trapped in a context

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_01]: because they painted it as a female

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_01]: trapped in a context where you don't

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_01]: have the power she doesn't have the

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: power

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: but this is what it looks

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: like to be

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a morally powerful

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose women some pieces of that

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: were just person in general

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and I assume

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: typically they use the

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: when we translate scripture there's

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: this

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: when we're talking about people in general

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_01]: there's that bent towards

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the masculine and I wonder if

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you know

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of hearkening back to your translation here

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_01]: if the reason that maybe

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: they used the picture of

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_01]: a woman is because she is

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the one in culture

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_01]: who has less

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_01]: power and the whole point of this is that

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: wisdom is more important than

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: power and

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: so yes even men can put

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: themselves in these shoes these are things

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to seek

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: to be

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to be humble I wonder

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder I wonder why

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the choice to

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to refer to

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_01]: the wise

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_01]: woman at the end of the passage

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: because we joke about that like yeah women are

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: wise and everything but this choice is interesting

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I think

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: literally because

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_02]: they've spent 30 chapters

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: worth

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_02]: showing women

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: in kind of a negative light that it's

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_02]: like okay now that

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you've learned everything that you're not supposed to do

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to use a similar metaphor

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to tell you the things that you're supposed to pursue

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: which is this list

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_02]: of very culturally dependent

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_02]: things like if

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_02]: we were to remake this

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: today it would be

[00:30:08] [SPEAKER_02]: a list of a lot different things but

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_02]: um it's

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: still like it's kind

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_02]: of like this weird contrast of

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_02]: the reason women

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: were used

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: metaphorically in the first 30 chapters

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: was a lot because

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they were

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_02]: the marginalized

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_02]: group in the society

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and so they're easy to punch down on

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and then it's kind of keeping

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: in that spirit

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_02]: in

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: chapter 31 to like

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: keep using this marginalized group but at the same time

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: it does switch

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the perspective

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: of the reader because

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they themselves are supposed to be pursuing

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that which is seen as

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: the marginalized task

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_02]: which goes contrary to

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of what they

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: probably would have expected which is

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that they're supposed to pursue

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the masculine

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_02]: powerful thing

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and then to end it

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: with

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: it's kind of like 30 chapters

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_02]: saying don't pursue these

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: negative feminine things and then at the very end

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: what you should do is pursue these positive

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: feminine things so it's

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I do think that it might

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_02]: actually be playing on

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_02]: the misogynistic

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_02]: understanding of men and women in the time

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and the author just like

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah women are bad women are bad women are bad

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: oh here follow women

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's kind of like this twist

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: it's kind of a twist ending that

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: the original audience doesn't necessarily see

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_02]: coming

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it is a huge twist and that's why

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that's why I wonder

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: about the child I was wondering about that too

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: because because they're flipping

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: the power role I wonder if that's very much

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the point interesting

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting but

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: if you were

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: if you are using this as a model

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: think about

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the power of 31 woman

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: like close your eyes for a moment

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and imagine this lifestyle in case

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you haven't read the passage this might be important context so go ahead

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: let's just put yourself

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in her place

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: this is the

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: NRSV new revised standard version

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a capable wife who

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: confined she is far more

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: precious than jewels the heart of her husband

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: trusts in her and he will have

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: no lack of gain

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: she does him good and not harm

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_01]: all the days of her life

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: she seeks wool and

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: flax and works with willing hands

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: she's like the ships of the merchant

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: she brings her food from far away

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: she rises while it is still

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: night and provides food for her household

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: and tasks for her servant girls

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: she considers a field and buys it

[00:32:51] [SPEAKER_01]: with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_01]: she girds herself with strength

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and makes her arms strong

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: she perceives that her merchandise is profitable

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: her lamp does not go out at night

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: she puts her hands to the

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: dis staff and her hands hold

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the spindle

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: she opens her hands to the poor

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and reaches out her hands to the needy

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: she's doing a lot of stuff with her hands

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it doesn't do that

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_01]: very handy

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: she is not afraid for her household when it snows

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: for all her household are clothed in crimson

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_01]: she makes herself coverings

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: her clothing is fine linen

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and purple

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: her husband is known in the city gates taking his seat

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_01]: among the elders of the land

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: she makes linen garments and sells them

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: she supplies the merchants with sashes

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: strength and dignity are her clothing

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and she laughs

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: at the time to come

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: she opens her mouth with wisdom

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: she looks well to the ways of her household

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and does not eat the bread of idleness

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: her children rise up and call her happy

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: her husband too

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and he praises her

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: many women have done excellently but you surpassed them all

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: charm is deceitful

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and beauty is vain

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: give her a share in the fruit of her hands

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and let her works praise her in the city gates

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I just had a nightmare though

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: if this was really

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and then in the meantime

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: my children are just rising up

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and calling me happy and I'm like

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that's what this feeling is

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_02]: no yeah

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not the feeling

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_02]: so let's just take a moment

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and let's look at this through the

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: evangelical lens

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: of this is meant to be taken literal

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: right where

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_02]: every woman is

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: supposed to do this

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: something that should be glaring is just

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_02]: the fact that her husband

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_02]: does nothing her husband

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is doing nothing and reaping the benefits

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: of it which

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: is really problematic

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_02]: if that is the way that we want to

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: understand this because

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: but she is

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the way that modern

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: evangelicals want to understand it

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's true

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: something that is interesting

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_02]: to me is

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_02]: that verse that says

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: her profits are good or however

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: your translation said

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: because the Hebrew word

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it's profitable

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_02]: the Hebrew word actually means

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_02]: like trade

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not just like what she's selling

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's like literally people

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: traveling to buy stuff

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_02]: from her

[00:35:36] [SPEAKER_02]: which is interesting

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: because that would mean that she

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_02]: she is probably breaking the Billy Graham rule

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: right

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: because

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: she most likely is selling to men

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: which is not unheard of

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_02]: per se in the first century

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's like

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: she's a landowner

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: but she also is like dealing

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: with trade and stuff

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: if this is meant to be taken literal

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like this woman doesn't have a life

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: she's doing her job

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: like her cultured

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: job in the home

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and she's doing her husband's job

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: she is running

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: at least one business probably two

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: then just like raising her kids

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: in a way where they all think

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that she's happy which

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: raising kids is stressful

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not an easy thing

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: well we're talking about

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: raising kids owning land

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: planting food

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_01]: gathering food cooking the food

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_01]: making linens supplying

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: them to merchants selling things

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: getting up while it's

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_01]: still night

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: like leading her husband

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know her husband trusts her

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_01]: she brings her food from far away

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_01]: she gives tasks out

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: to the household

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: she's got the full agenda

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like she's providing all the food

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: she's like this is

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're not talking about

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: a culture where she can run down

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to the grocery store

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: to provide the food it's that she brings her food

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: from far away and I'm

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_01]: they

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: she couldn't just go hop in the Prius

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: either you know we're talking

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: about things that take time

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_01]: how this is not

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: a 24 hour

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: day

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you know

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: this is not how time works

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you know

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_01]: things poetry doesn't

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: have to follow a logical

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: timeline

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: but if we try

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to take this literally no one

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_01]: no one

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: no one

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it's so far fetched

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that it's meant

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to be hyperbole

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that is how we're supposed to understand it

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and the author literally

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: goes out of their way to be like

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_02]: you're not supposed to take it

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: literal because it is impossible

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to do all of these things

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_02]: if the author knows that

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and the author is like this

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: is impossible then we are not

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_02]: as the reader supposed to take it literal

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: it's supposed to be

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_02]: metaphorical

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I think from there

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: after you read through it

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: there is one verse that I think

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: was quoted quite often

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: which is

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: what's the most common way that it's

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: charm is people and beauty

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_01]: is fleeting

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that one

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_03]: um

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the one you feel so much will be praised

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: the weird thing is the word

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: charm there doesn't

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_02]: mean charm it means grace or favor

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: like it's the

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: same

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: it's the same word for like

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: god having grace

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: on Noah and not killing his family

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's okay yeah

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it's really weird

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_03]: that

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: cause that's a positive thing

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't understand why that word is being used

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: why that word

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: well maybe

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: they got stuck with their

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: acrostic poem they were like god damn it

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: what rhymes with orange

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that's this is what we got

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: charm I don't know

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the word that it starts with is

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_03]: chaperre which um

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's yeah it's a shin

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know but that's a verb

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why they had chose that now

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_02]: doesn't matter

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_02]: basically it's saying like favor

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: is deceitful

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_02]: which um

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_02]: in an essence that's like

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: what we see with Donald Trump

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_02]: whenever he like supports

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but then like once as soon as

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_02]: they don't do what he says

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_02]: like they're dead to him

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: like this is what that means that favor

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: is it literally favor

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_02]: is a lie

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: um yeah

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: which really goes back to the beginning

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: of the of the chapter

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: we talked about you know not

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: giving your strength and your power away to other

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to other rulers to other entities

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: not being so

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: not trusting the promise of power

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and favor because

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it's it's not always real

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it yeah

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_02]: it's fake it's literally a lie

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_02]: according to to this text

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not charm so it's

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not like um

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_02]: being

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: a nice person is

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_02]: what is wrong here

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_02]: uh but it's

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that this is

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is literally like at the very

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_02]: end it's just like referencing back to the

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_02]: idea that these

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_02]: things that

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_02]: like quote seduce

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: you into like

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: following political leaders

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: which was a big

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: thing you know and

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_02]: the ancient Near East

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: uh like

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: following their perceived favor

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_02]: is a lie so don't

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you know don't give into it

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_02]: just when you start looking at the connections

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: between this passage

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and the other parts of Proverbs like

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it really starts

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: to break down that this wasn't meant to be

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_02]: an ideal woman it's

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: it's meant for for

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: ancient Near Eastern people

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: to reflect on

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: political power

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and especially since it

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: is given it's literally given to the king

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: whoever

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: king

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_02]: king Lamuel is

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: uh and this is supposed to be wisdom

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that uh his

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_02]: mom taught him

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_02]: in essence to lead like

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that is the context

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but he doesn't he doesn't

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: need a wife that does these things

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_02]: he's already the king so

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: her a mother telling

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a king like go look for this type

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: of wife he's probably gonna have multiple

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_02]: wives like that's

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: not what's going on finding the right

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_02]: wife isn't actually what he's

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: thinking about

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_01]: well and so much of these are

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: kings

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: duties

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah absolutely like

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: taking care of the poor

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and the needy um making

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: sure that

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_02]: your trade that

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: your your nation needs to survive

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: is like good

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: being respected

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_02]: by people so you don't get

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: assassinated like

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah a lot of these

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: are kingly traits

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: or ideally kingly traits

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: absolutely

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sorry if you can hear me turning pages over here just

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_02]: by it's like the only person I know

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: that has a physical

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_02]: copy of the bible

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I used to have like

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_01]: 10

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: legit when I hyper fixate

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_01]: also when I went to college it seemed

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: like every different class the professor

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: was like you have to have this bible you have to have this one

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I kept them for the longest time

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and then I would just decide that I wanted a new

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01]: version or that one looks cool it has

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_01]: different notes in it and

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I had so many bibles I

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: literally had to go I got this copy

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_01]: right here from a thrift store

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: like relatively recently or no

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: a used bookstore anyway

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I got rid of all of them because I was

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like well I don't do the bible

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: anymore and

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: now I'm doing the bible again so

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: at least everyone's smile

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I love the physical copy I like

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to make notes and I like that the pages

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: smell like a book and

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm real nerdy

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_01]: about my my paper copies of everything

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but but a paper

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_02]: bible you can't just easily go look at the Hebrew

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and go back

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_02]: back and forth between the two

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_01]: but I don't know what the Hebrew

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_02]: says that's that's

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_02]: fair

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: just hyper nerdy that

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: way I guess I love that

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of wish that I had taken some

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: biblical languages in college but I got my

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_01]: minor in Spanish actually and I just

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't have a lot of extra time

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that's fair yeah

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: one of my one of my first

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember how to speak it

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: one of my first photo shoots

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: after starting Onlyfans

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_02]: was one with

[00:45:13] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it's one with a bible but it's actually not

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: it just looks like a bible is actually

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: a commentary on like the

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: book of Peter or something that I

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: had found

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that I just still had but it looked

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_02]: enough like a bible that

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_02]: this kind of blurred

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the the front cover of it

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_02]: a little bit

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: when's your birth date well you don't have to tell us

[00:45:41] [SPEAKER_01]: your birth date that would be a lot you know what

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll send you a bible for Christmas

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: you're gonna you're gonna forget about

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: this conversation and one day in December

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a bible is just gonna randomly show up at your house

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're gonna think

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the Lord has spoken

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was probably just me

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's probably just you sitting sinning

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: me bibles yeah and

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: if you would like to consider me God

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I have no problem with blasphemy so

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_01]: here we are

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_02]: just as long as you send me

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: like the world English bible

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: because that at least

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_02]: uh has the

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: the apocryphal and the

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Deuteronical books

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_01]: in it yeah like my little guy

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_01]: here yeah

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you have a good one it's actually not a little guy

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_01]: this is a big guy she's chong

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: this is how I like my bibles

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: if I put this in my backpack I want it

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to actually break my back

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm taking up my

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_01]: cross y'all

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_01]: the yoke is not easy the mantle

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not light

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: um did I

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: tell you that I was working with

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: our bible app to

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: um release

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_02]: to release a bible

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: uh I don't know

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think it's gonna happen

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_02]: but remember when

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Trump did the

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: like the

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Trump authorized bible

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the true the Trump bible that had

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: like the king James version

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and then

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_02]: God bless America like

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: handwritten in it plus

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I think the constitution in the bill rights was all

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_02]: in one book

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the word of God the constitution

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: what

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you don't remember that

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean I like yeah

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_01]: but it still gives me the what

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah it's so still

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_02]: super is super

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_02]: weird anyways and I guess

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe I didn't know that the whole

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01]: bill of rights and constitution

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_01]: was in there too I don't

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a lot

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew he went straight for the king James

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that of course

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I mean it's

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it's uh public domain

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02]: so it's really easy to do

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_02]: um anyways I took

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_02]: that idea and

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_02]: what's that

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: cause it was called God bless the God bless

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_02]: America bible right

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and so

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I did the

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: God

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_03]: damn it what was it

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: uh I don't

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a title for it but it was the world

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: English by yeah

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: world English bible

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_02]: with the entire

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: apocrypha do economical

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: um and then

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of like

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: the the bill of right

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_02]: because there's the bill of rights the

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: cons is constitution and then the

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_02]: calling it a him

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: which is problematic

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: but the him God bless America

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_01]: what

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: wow

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:48:51] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_02]: okay anyways

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_02]: so full

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_02]: full bible instead of the constitution

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: declaration of independence I had

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_02]: dang it what was it

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: oh I had the black

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_02]: bill of rights which was

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_02]: written in 19

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_02]: 20

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: something is right maybe

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: 40s is after one of the world wars

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_02]: where there was

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: oh no it's right after world war two

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_02]: whenever a whenever like

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_02]: black people in the United States were like

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_02]: hey we fought for the United States

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02]: against Nazi Germany

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and now we're coming home and realizing that

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: uh

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_02]: home is basically the same as

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Nazi Germany but

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: just for black people

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: um which is kind of

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_02]: a rough realization to have

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: fought a war and then came

[00:49:48] [SPEAKER_02]: back to live in what you fought against but

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: they wrote the the black

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_02]: bill of rights

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: um or maybe it's the African-American

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Bill of Rights I remember the language for the time

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_02]: then also

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: um Frederick

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Dauglis is fourth of July

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_02]: speech oh my god

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: uh what is the fourth

[00:50:08] [SPEAKER_02]: of July to the slave or

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: or something like that

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: rips into the United States

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: just so much

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I must mourn this fourth

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_01]: of July like it's so

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_02]: good it's it's so good and then

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: um instead of

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: instead of god bless America

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: uh I put

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: in the black national anthem

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_02]: raise every raise every voice

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: since then yes

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: every voice and sing oh

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so good sorry I just like

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: every time

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I just now I just

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the have you watched the homecoming documentary

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I

[00:50:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I haven't know oh my

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: gosh Beyonce at Coachella

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and when she said like I just get chills like every

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_01]: time she's so great I'm obsessed with her

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that's fine um

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_01]: someone tell Beyonce to sponsor us

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_01]: uh

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: yes Beyonce if you're listening please

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_02]: sponsor us

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_01]: can you imagine

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what Beyonce is doing with her free time

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_01]: never

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_01]: okay so

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: this is I

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_01]: the biggest

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the biggest thing that I'm getting out of this

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_01]: is like y'all stop taking it so literally

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I

[00:51:28] [SPEAKER_02]: made I made

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_02]: somebody really mad once by saying

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_02]: you should never get theology from the Psalms

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02]: there's so many people who will look

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to us look to Psalms for theology

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: like

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_02]: that's one of our biggest

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_02]: you know pro life things

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: is you knit me together in the

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: womb and that's

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_02]: supposed to make us

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_02]: you know

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_02]: pro life but

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: if

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_02]: using that Psalm

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_02]: to come to theological

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: a theological conclusion about abortion

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_02]: then why aren't you also playing

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_02]: like an equal

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_02]: verse because it's in the same book it's

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: still in the same context is

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_02]: um happy as he who

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: dashes your little ones against the rocks

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that's

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_02]: literally in the Psalms

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean it's true

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really true the way that we want to

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: want to pick and choose to reinforce

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_01]: beliefs that we already have

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: yep and

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the Psalms

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_01]: the

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the other thing is that

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of scripture

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: is a case study on what

[00:52:40] [SPEAKER_01]: not to do

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_05]: actually

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and sometimes

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: people read passages as

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: instructional

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: that were

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_01]: were not meant to be read

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_01]: that way at all

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and the people of that

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_01]: time period would have understood

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: that very clearly

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that like oh this is bad

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: actually

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_01]: they're painting a picture

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_02]: we talked about that in

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_02]: whenever we talked about David

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: saying that he the only thing

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the only person he sin

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_02]: against was God

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: when he had literally raped somebody

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and murdered her husband

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: um that's not

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_02]: true

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: like at all

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_02]: um

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_02]: but

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_02]: like Psalms are not supposed to be taken

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_02]: as theological trees they're meant to

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_02]: be understood as a person's

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_02]: emotional state put to words

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_02]: at the time that they wrote it because

[00:53:41] [SPEAKER_02]: it is

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_02]: poetry or lyrics

[00:53:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or song

[00:53:48] it's

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean this is

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: what we're saying is this is the

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Alanis Morissette of the Bible

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:53:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you like

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it's this portion

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the portions of the bible

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_01]: we can really see them as art

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_01]: this was a literary device

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_01]: this was an art form this was expression

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of these people

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a snapshot of a time

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: of a culture of an emotion

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_01]: of an event of these characters whatever

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that it's a snapshot

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a lyric

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a song at a time it's a poem

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and think about

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Edgar Allen Poe

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and think about art

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and poetry and it's supposed to

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_01]: say things about the darkest

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_01]: parts of human existence as well

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're supposed to be able to

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01]: relate to it on

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_01]: a few different visceral levels

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and then translate that for ourselves

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and that's the problem

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_01]: is it's really difficult for us to translate

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_01]: these things for ourselves

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_01]: because we just we are so

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: far removed

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01]: from the original text

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and I

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I really like I

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: hate that I'm

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01]: that person that's like

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like you have to stand up and

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_01]: speak on it but also I'm just like

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: listen okay let's come back

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_01]: to this passage with like some context

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and some understanding of the culture

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_01]: some understanding of the

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of the literary form

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_01]: some understanding of the language

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and then let's

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: revisit this passage in the ways

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that you're applying it to your life today

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: because perhaps

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not what it was talking

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_01]: about at all

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah most

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_01]: most of the time it's not because it couldn't

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_01]: it could like the bible could

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_01]: not possibly

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_01]: comment on what was going to happen in

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_01]: 2024 unless we're talking about

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_01]: some like serious fucking dystopian literature

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_01]: like then it would be like the

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_01]: 1984 of its time right like this

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_01]: most of this isn't about 2024

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: it was written to those people

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: in that time not to us

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: which in 2024

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're still trying to apply it

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_01]: to our lives and I'm not saying that there's nothing good in there

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was not written to you

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_02]: it just wasn't well it wasn't it wasn't

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to be understood

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_02]: like literally to our

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_02]: context today it was

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_02]: like even in the context that

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it was written it was written to be

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_02]: pieces of wisdom to like

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_02]: think through and to apply to your own

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: like personal

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_02]: context it

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not actually it was not actually

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_02]: meant to be like

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_02]: an instruction book for

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: like dealing with every single problem it's

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_02]: it's wisdom

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_02]: which is common with eastern

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_02]: language eastern religions

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: which it is it's not actually

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_02]: a western religion

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_02]: as much as

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_02]: what Christianity is today is

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_02]: a western religion that part is

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: confusing we we have

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_02]: a western religion that uses

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_02]: an eastern religion's

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_01]: book well yes we really

[00:57:00] [SPEAKER_01]: do and we're trying to like

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: white Jesus is a real problem

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_01]: right like the fact that

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: we think that this is all for

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_01]: us and that God is speaking directly to us like

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I used to do that thing when I was having

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_01]: a hard day and I would just like flip open my Bible

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and point and be like Jesus is giving me this

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_01]: verse right and I like

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_05]: what

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I like I don't think

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_01]: that like Paul was actually

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_01]: thinking about you at all

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_01]: when he wrote that I

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: um and

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Scripture itself

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_01]: does not say that

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01]: it is meant to be a literal

[00:57:35] [SPEAKER_01]: manual it does not

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_01]: say that it is

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: without error or without

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: negative examples it simply says

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that it's God breathes which means inspired

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and that it's useful for teaching

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_01]: that's the music of the Bible

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_01]: says about itself for teaching

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: for living for whatever and it's

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_01]: this is it's

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really it's even

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_01]: the books that are instructional

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: are not

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a thing behind the thing I mean

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: if when Jesus is asked to sum up the

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_01]: law he says love the Lord your God with

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_01]: all your heart soul and mind love your neighbor is yourself

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: when Paul is referring

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_01]: back to the law he's saying it was

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_01]: given partially so that you could understand

[00:58:16] [SPEAKER_01]: that you are not God and you can't live

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_01]: up to it and you need Jesus and you need

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_01]: something else and you need humility

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_01]: like even the

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: instructional books some of them were written

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: uh

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: as covenants and this was

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like legal language

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that they would have understood that it's like

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a binding relationship with God

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: a thing that they would have looked at this structure

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and been like I recognize this

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_01]: like but we don't

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that's I just think

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: even

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: when it is instructional there is something

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_01]: else happening underneath of it and there's

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a heart behind it and I think

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_01]: when we take

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that out and we want to look

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_01]: at it as some sort of like

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_01]: handbook for modern life

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_01]: we are completely missing

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the point

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_02]: and currently

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_02]: currently Christians have

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: violet

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_02]: defending the Bible even though she's an atheist

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that is how bad

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_02]: that is how bad

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Christians use the Bible

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_02]: the violet

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_02]: violet has to come out of retirement

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: so

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_02]: what the Bible is meant to be used for

[00:59:31] [SPEAKER_01]: well but that's the thing

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_01]: that's why I'm here

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: right because for so long I was like

[00:59:35] [SPEAKER_01]: listen I'm an atheist now like what do I have to say about this

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got all of this knowledge in my mind that I don't even

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: feel I don't it used

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to be a special interest now I don't even feel like

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I can think about it or tap into it what's the use

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: of this if I don't believe in any of it anymore

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_01]: but then I looked around and I was like there are a lot of people who do believe in this

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_01]: or a lot of people who are on the fence

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_01]: or a lot of people who are de-converting

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_01]: or trying to figure out a way to

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_01]: believe in this to mesh it

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_01]: you know an actual like ethical

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: way of living and more

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: liberal politics and like Jesus was

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: a radical so you can absolutely do that

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: there's the thing is I may

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: not believe the things that Scripture

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: says but I do

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: believe that there is

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: a harmful way to use it

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: like with most other forms

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_01]: of spirituality there is also

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe an individual

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: personal way

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that if you read this

[01:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: through the lens

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: of what it was actually meant to be

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_01]: you might be able to get something out of here

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and what I'm really

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: against is that thing

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that we do where

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: we want to

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: take this book and read it

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and then make our own version

[01:00:47] [SPEAKER_01]: of God

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: that

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: which is what we're doing anyway

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean we have to to some extent

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but we want to really just

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: we already have an idea in our head

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_01]: about who is other and who is with us

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: we want to use this

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: thing a lot of it which was

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: again a case study on what not to do

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and apply it in really harmful

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_01]: ways so I think

[01:01:12] [SPEAKER_01]: that if for me I may not look at the Bible

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: as everything it says is true I don't

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: take it as literal but I do

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: see that there is history

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: in here that there is

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that there's poetry in here

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_01]: that there's and so if

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_01]: we're gonna look at it I'm gonna look at it as a

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: historical book and I'm gonna say we need to

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: read this right and I may not

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: agree with everything that they said

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: in here but let's

[01:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: at least get our approach right before

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_01]: we start arguing with the text

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know I guess it's

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: still a special interest a little bit

[01:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: she can't shake it and now it's more

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: like okay how do we

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_01]: how do we re-read this

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and what are the harmful things that

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Christians are doing with this

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: that maybe we don't have to do

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: if you want to still use Scripture

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_01]: in your life and your study and your whatever

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: like maybe you don't have

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: to do with it all the really harmful

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: bullshit

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe?

[01:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's maybe

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's kind of the thing is once you start

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: realizing that

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: it wasn't

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: supposed to be used this way

[01:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and that it's actually harmful

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: to use it this way

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where like

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that's where a lot of growth can happen but also

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: it's so much more interesting

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: to like deal with

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: the possibilities of what could

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: be going on instead of like this very

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: strict

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_02]: mostly harmful

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: view of you have to

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_02]: read it this way or

[01:02:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you're going to burn in hell or whatever

[01:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: like there's some really

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting things

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really important to know that not all Christians believe that

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: either I think that's

[01:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I still that's the other thing I still

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: have Christian friends and so

[01:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: while I may not

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: believe everything that's being said

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: in here there are people in my life

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: that I have seen apply

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: this

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: really healthy ways that looked at Jesus

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and was like oh no he's a feminist

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and a radical and actually I understand

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the context behind what they're saying about homosexuality

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and I have friends who are allies

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like the first person

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that I was like I think I might be gayer than I thought

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and what if I'm a terrible person I'm going to tear my life apart

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: blah blah blah blah blah blah

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: she's a pastor

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and she was the person who looked at me and was like well

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: history would suggest first of all that that's not true

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: the horrible person thing and second of all

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: what would you tell

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: a dear friend

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: who came to you and said the exact same things

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: that you just said to me

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and I

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I just started bawling and I said that love isn't

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: love if you have to be to pretend to be someone

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: else to get it and she was like

[01:03:53] [SPEAKER_01]: so she's I've got

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: friends who are allies who helped me come to terms

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: with my queerness who I

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: cried with and drink wine with

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: when Donald Trump was elected as president

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: who are pro-abortion

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: who are

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: really active and then of course

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: there's you Alicia like you're still working

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: with scripture as well and you would still call yourself a Christian

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're really advancing

[01:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: in my mind I still have this kind

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: of distinction between like quote-unquote

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: good Christians and bad Christians

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: right and there's like the uber conservative

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: ones that are

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: just taking all of the harmful bits

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and running with it and I think that in general

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in the religion

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like the morality steeped

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: thing in the church thing I

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: don't really know if I believe that

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a healthy way to do

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that but on an individual level

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: if you're gonna believe in this God

[01:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: just please

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_01]: try

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to actually

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: think critically and

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: read and

[01:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and understand

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the nuance

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and hold all of this

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: with an open hand with the understanding

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: that this was written

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: for a different culture and a different

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_01]: time in a different context

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and while you may be able to get a little bit out of this

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: most of what it is

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is just like a spiritual

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: book it's like a

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_01]: poetry it's history

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a lot of it

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: it was oral tradition before it was written

[01:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: for most of the Old Testament it's stories

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: it's tradition

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the things that you

[01:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: tell your kids around the campfire this isn't

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: just

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: be careful how you read it please if you're gonna

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: read it that's all

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: well that's

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: we are at the end of our time

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: these are the summaries

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: for this sub-sub

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: don't use the bible as a weapon

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: and don't

[01:05:48] [SPEAKER_02]: try to be a

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Proverbs 31 wife

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_02]: because you weren't supposed to

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: be that person

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you weren't

[01:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but do be

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: like handsy

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that's a good quality

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: be as handsy as the Proverbs 31

[01:06:06] [SPEAKER_01]: only with consent obviously

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: we love a good set of hands

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and also

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: do be concerned

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: about the people

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: around you right she was

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_01]: caring for the poor she was compassionate

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: do be

[01:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: just as concerned about them

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: as you are about power

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: and enterprise and

[01:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: all of that so

[01:06:28] [SPEAKER_01]: you know

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: worry about yourself

[01:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: first

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: but also worry about other

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: humans and I think

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the good stuff that we can take from her

[01:06:41] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it's a good stuff

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_02]: thank you everyone for listening

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: in we will catch you

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: in the next episode

[01:07:38] [SPEAKER_03]: subscribe to this podcast by visiting

[01:07:42] [SPEAKER_03]: dauntless.fm