What is Sex Work

[00:00:00] Hello heathens, I'm Wyld Violet and I'm Transvangelical and this is Not Safe for Worship. Here we talk about the ethics of sex work and sexuality in general through the lens of post-religious trauma. These are deeply personal topics for us and we strive to delve in

[00:00:18] with humor and respect but we do discuss very sensitive and potentially triggering subjects on a regular basis. Please practice self-care and compassion, take breaks or even stop listening if you need to. We care deeply about you and your well-being.

[00:00:37] Welcome everyone to this week's episode of Not Safe for Worship. This is probably what should have been our beginning episode to kind of set a foundation of what is sex work because

[00:00:52] chances are if you grew up like us you probably didn't know that there was anything outside of prostitution or prostitution and pornography because that's all that we were really taught growing up in purity culture. Wouldn't want us to know about any of the other options because

[00:01:13] we might get curious. I mean they still made us curious enough like they would say like don't go searching up pornography on the internet but if you don't know what pornography is then you're like I don't know what this is I want to google it

[00:01:30] and see what comes up because I don't understand like pornography is not a word that's like inherently easy to understand. There is no one who thinks about sex more I believe than like a Christian quote unquote virgin like let's say high school college young adult. I'm telling you

[00:01:56] we're all so fucking curious. Well and that's kind of like the way that it's done it just so it invites so much curiosity that it makes it like more so much easier to constantly think

[00:02:13] about that it's you're basically setting people up to fail when you're like whatever you do. To fail their test yeah. Yeah fail their test like there's not necessarily anything inherently wrong with it but according to them there is so. But we're grading on a curve yeah.

[00:02:32] Yeah yeah. Absolutely I you know I think I'm still as an adult learning a lot about what sex work is like even someone who's working in the industry and doing this business myself I do one thing I do

[00:02:52] only fans and so I've been really kind of broadening my view as well I've gotten really curious and there are so many different types and categories of sex work. There are you know the ones

[00:03:04] that come to mind for all of us I think are like full service sex work which we talked about colloquially prostitution is how it's been referred to and there's you know you can be

[00:03:17] independent you can work through a brothel you can even even within full service sex work there's more than one way to do it so I think sex work in general would it be accurate to say kind of

[00:03:29] just an exchange of sexual services for compensation of some sort and I would say compensation could be monetary or food it could be housing it could be kind of anything and sexual services could also be very broad. Yeah it's I think that's probably the best working definition

[00:03:48] of sex work because I mean most likely the exchange of sexual services probably started before the invention of money anyways so like sexual services for food or you know some like that before money

[00:04:06] existed. For status for power for you know there's a lot of difference. Which was actually kind of common in Greek and Roman culture was yeah. And there's a question mark there of course

[00:04:21] about whether or not that's ethical if you have to have sex in order to and we really do want to focus for the most part today when we're talking about sex work on ethical sex work we're not

[00:04:31] talking about trafficking we're not talking about coercion we're not talking about that that forced stuff and there there might have been a culture back in the day and we know that this happened all the time that people married for you know power and legacy and a lot

[00:04:47] of different things and so they're I mean technically people do that today. It's true it's true they do and I but I don't know if I would call that. It's not necessarily necessarily however it's

[00:05:00] definitely it is a motive maybe make an argument yeah definitely we can call it ethical necessarily because the people in power can you make that ethical I don't let's not get too deep into that.

[00:05:11] Yeah we're gonna do very like very basic level here and that's gonna be kind of the thing is we're gonna constantly have these great areas whenever we're talking about it which is not to be unexpected because if we are working in any type of industry like there's unethical

[00:05:33] ways to do basically any any type of industry so if we're going to it's kind of weird that we think that we have to like toe the line on what is ethical and what isn't in sex work

[00:05:49] whenever other industries you don't necessarily have to do that even though there's a lot of unethical things and like technology the service industry like like food service industry. So but yeah we're not going to get nuanced into all the unethical ways that that you can

[00:06:11] that sex can be exploited or things like that we're gonna be kind of just dealing with basic levels. So yeah what is sex work what are we talking about what how how do you engage it in a way

[00:06:24] that's ethical how do you engage with sex workers in a way that's ethical you know um might even talk a little bit about like the the implications of being a sex worker for on our on

[00:06:34] our lives what is it what does it look like to do sex work so yeah awesome so you know we talked about full service already um there there are other kind of full you know you think about

[00:06:53] massage right erotic massage that is absolutely and and that could be considered a full service as well I suppose um what else not sure I'm not sure if that one is uh but yeah I I mean if you go

[00:07:09] go back and listen to the episode with ember there there's a lot there that uh it can fall under sex work that isn't necessarily something that you would can consider sex work like her

[00:07:22] CPAP videos that she sells a lot of it is not going to be somebody's first thought on sex on a type of sex work however it's I mean it still falls falls under the like photo and video

[00:07:39] aspect of of it but like that's done a lot inherently I'm so sorry you know you're good it's not I just gonna say it's not something that people see as inherently sexual but some people

[00:07:54] do it and because of that it's it's a very gray area of what a um sexual service might look like yeah but I think um you know for for our sake if it's if it's being requested um

[00:08:10] of a sex worker uh and and if it's being again you're being compensated for it and people are enjoying it in an erotic way which they're making it very clear that they are with ember go girl um

[00:08:23] I think that then it would you know definitely fall under that category and of course like that's so so broad um there's I think about those CPAP videos yeah absolutely that's a great

[00:08:36] example there's also a lot of um oh she talked about uh like her sneezing and coughing content there's for a lot of us who are in this space there's a lot of emotional labor that goes with it you

[00:08:53] might have people that pay simply to have a conversation about what's going on with you know their sexual orientation or with their partner with whatever there's like this little bit of hey I'm not a

[00:09:04] licensed counselor but like if you want to pay me to chat about this I will and so there's that also is an aspect of sex work and um there's things like the the the dominatrix work right um

[00:09:21] gosh which doesn't necessarily include like what we might consider like it doesn't necessarily include intercourse it might um depending on the situation and the and the people involved but there's also a lot of dominatrix um things that there is no actual

[00:09:41] physical contact between two humans normally there there will be a tool or something of some sort um it's not necessarily human to human touching so there there's a lot of just a lot of space

[00:09:57] you've got your then you've got your the online dominatrix community and so of course like no contact and um you know some of the the the acts that they might be um engaging like some

[00:10:13] of the things that they might be doing might look inherently sexual um and then there might be they might have subs who actually have fetishes around things that don't look inherently sexual

[00:10:25] to us they might be forcing them to do something like clean a tooth or toilet with their toothbrush they might be you know doing something humiliation right so there's when you get into the world of

[00:10:36] fetish and in the world of kink there are a lot of things there that um maybe we don't widely culturally see as inherently sexual but that doesn't mean that they aren't for some

[00:10:49] people and so that that's where this like really individualized porn I think is is is really really valuable and one of the reasons that it's only fans is so popular um yeah of course yeah yeah

[00:11:02] absolutely I think um one that stands out to me I'm constantly having my friends they'll say to me I'm just gonna sell some feet pictures then I don't even have to get naked I'll just sell

[00:11:11] some pictures of my feet online which we all know it's so much more difficult than that like yeah a lot a lot of us don't think of toes as being inherently sexy I for me it's hands like

[00:11:22] I'm so into hands oh my god but like some people are into toes like that you don't even have to show a genital just a toe and like I don't so I'm not like to me feet feet are almost to turn

[00:11:37] me and that's just a personal preference yeah I actually like I intentionally um kind of make myself become attractive to like a partner's feet just because yeah but everybody like everybody is so different like you like you said you have

[00:12:01] hands that um oh my god are your thing um can okay so I actually have a friend a dear friend who's a sex worker and just like really hates feet almost has like a foot phobia

[00:12:16] like you if you're sitting on the couch next to this person you accidentally touch them with your foot they're gonna like recoil and you'll like if you're sitting there like in front of them they're cringing yeah they hate feet and like that's you know totally fine

[00:12:31] different preferences and I yeah I don't know what it is the hand thing I remember like my very first boyfriend when I was in fifth grade I was like um he has such nice hands like I just thought

[00:12:41] that his hands were so pretty and so cute and now listen I should post a picture I should post I need to post another picture of my girlfriend's hands on the internet because y'all

[00:12:55] you do definitely oh my god anyway um so moving on from that hands and feet uh be the hands and feet of Jesus Christ there we go oh my god pick up your cross and follow me

[00:13:09] you know we're gonna we're following the what is it be a lamp into my feet and the light and to my hands I don't anyways the point is that people like feet and and and people have always

[00:13:24] used their feet to communicate um sexy stuff so I I can't think of a great way to segue into this except that I'm so excited for Alicia to tell us about like a specific sex work practice a really

[00:13:41] really early sex work practice that she informed me of that I had no idea existed and I think it's the most brilliant thing ever and I might have to steal it honestly like I might take this idea

[00:13:50] yeah we definitely um I want to say that it could it could be considered maybe like the earliest form of the foot fetish but I think that's it's not really about the feet as we'll see when we

[00:14:02] get into it but like I might qualify well we'll take a vote Alicia please please tell these people about so so in the in the first century and uh we were so we were on go home bible and I think

[00:14:21] I think by you brought this up where Jesus gets his feet washed right and that like feet washing was part of prostitution in the first century is kind of like a ritual type thing

[00:14:35] uh so it is at least as early as the first century they don't want to suck no nasty toes all right yeah sweaty dirty toes you got to clean those things so yeah like foot cleaning was

[00:14:49] was an inherently sexual practice also I just thought of this like feet are often you know um why can't I come up with the word all of a sudden flew right out of my brain

[00:15:05] uh no feet feet in the bible are it's often when they say feet it's symbolism they're they're actually referring to genitals yeah so how do we when it came to you know prostitution and like

[00:15:20] the washing of the feet you have so much um background and translation that you might actually know how do we know if they were referring to feet or genitals like because I said some

[00:15:29] about sucking a dirty toe and then I went well you wouldn't want to suck a dirty oh yeah um I don't so I don't know I know that actual feet um actual feet washing was a thing

[00:15:43] but it would make sense to have it would make sense to have genital washing as well and just include it in the quote um foot foot washing and yeah like inspecting of genitals is actually

[00:15:59] it has a really basically as long as as full service x-work has existed the inspection of genitals genitals have has existed because it helps like stop stis right like somebody has some something growing off their genitals you probably don't necessarily want to be

[00:16:21] touching that uh so it would make it would make a lot of sense if in this ritualistic foot washing it was also genital washing not necessarily sure if that's in the the Jesus

[00:16:35] Dorothy um but it would be kind of awesome if it was anyways I'm deciding like it's canon for me now Jesus had a genital wash that's what happened and then dried with hair was that right dried

[00:16:49] with her hair or was that a different story listen I'm losing it uh yeah she wiped she wiped she she wiped her his feet with her hair um yeah that's the whole different fetish

[00:17:04] but I've never heard of that's a whole back to the feet back to the feet um yeah so in the first century uh prostitutes especially the the pornae which is the word that's used in the New Testament most often for sex workers which is a little problematic

[00:17:28] if you think that sex work is considered sinful in New Testament because it they're the lowest status sex workers that are basically sex slaves they're owned by a man or a pimp so

[00:17:41] it's problematic if you to use that as uh saying that sex work is wrong um anyways they would get specially made sandals and on it it would have one one just one word

[00:17:55] and it is follow me uh that's two words in English but it's one word in Greek and and it is it is the exact same word that Jesus says multiple times throughout the New

[00:18:07] Testament of follow me and there's even like with with the in like a few verses in one spot I think in John where there is a reference to female sinners and then Jesus says you know

[00:18:24] follow me like really close to that so like there are people like walking around with these sandals making little imprints in the sand to say follow me and then they would walk you know

[00:18:37] to their brothels and I don't know I think it's just my god like I I can't I need to have a pair of special shoes made that are just like follow that is like the sexiest that's the sexiest idea I've

[00:18:54] ever heard you're just walking along and you see little prints in the dirt and you're like oh I don't know where to go like that's adorable um also a disclaimer like it seems brilliant but

[00:19:06] maybe maybe don't rush out and do it um just because we talked about it because we got to think through like men um yeah but that's you you can you can wear it in a bear's you can wear it in

[00:19:20] front of bears and be okay um we're not sure if in front of the men right only when you're hiking only when you're hiking yeah yeah you know a nice pair of tiva's say follow me on the

[00:19:38] so cute right so yeah like there's there's been a long history of of foot stuff with um with sex work that even goes into the new testament and Jesus apparently constantly said the same

[00:19:56] line that you know sex workers would say which is follow me so there's a there's a weird overlap there uh follow me for more intimacy and we're like Jesus what you doing with the Holy Spirit when nobody's around you know it's yeah it's definitely a very interesting

[00:20:23] aspect but so something that's kind of fun like it's kind of fun thinking about is like there was a lot of connotation of sexuality within the early church that was later removed because they thought it was improper um but like the Romans thought that Christians were having

[00:20:47] orgies all the time and the only reason we say that that didn't happen was because later Christians said no they weren't having orgies so but were you there most yeah you weren't there

[00:21:03] and you're trying to like save face so there's there are no pictures there there there are I didn't do it I wasn't there I don't yeah yeah possible time but there there were like smaller

[00:21:21] sex of Christianity that that did did have a like more spiritualized aspect of sexuality within Christianity and their relationship with Jesus slash the Holy Spirit it's uh whenever Christianity became like super Romanized that's when I'm where it lost a lot of its sexual

[00:21:44] connotation and it's a little what did the Rome have against sex wasn't wasn't prostitution legal in Rome yes uh but but Rome kind of became the major like push for patriarchal standards that we still see today

[00:22:10] there wasn't really another ancient culture that was as patriarchal as as Rome especially after the the Caesars took over and yeah like you can see patriarchy in Greek understanding and

[00:22:29] and just kind of the idea that men are better than women you see that all over the the philosophers but yeah that was kind of heightened to to the extreme under Rome and then that's where

[00:22:46] that's where we get a lot of our hyper patriarchal understandings of Christianity was Christianity became super Romanized to the point where patriarchy had to take over it and like the early church was for its time like very feminist very like very egalitarian like women led churches and were

[00:23:11] were um prophetesses and uh that went away pretty quick so yeah I wonder what the church's understanding of sex work was in those early days and I don't there's not too much to go on

[00:23:28] necessarily um I what other so full service has been around since forever um what other means were kind of the earliest do you know back before we had you know cameras and it was mostly no no it wasn't just full service it was also

[00:24:00] um performance like dancing and things like that uh especially I would say especially within like temple rituals and in so okay we're gonna do a little bit of history of sex work in the

[00:24:15] ancient Near East because I think it's kind of important to to go go there a little bit that what we know about sex work in the ancient Near East almost entirely comes from

[00:24:29] uh herod it herod what is his name and like the 450 BC um who wrote the histories it's like herodotus or something like that I know ah that wasn't recording a podcast his name would just come to me anyways it's okay because nobody knows if you're pronouncing it wrong

[00:24:55] that's fair oh yeah but he's the one that wrote about everything and he wrote from a very like the Greeks are superior to everybody type thing and just like we get with any other history

[00:25:09] like the reason we have a hyper uh focus on human sacrifice for like the Aztecs is because banyards wrote the Aztec history whenever they conquered them because they wanted to make them

[00:25:23] look bad you kind of have the same thing with um with these so there there is a some type of or it is recorded that there is some type of sexual type service that is in relation to

[00:25:43] uh temple worship especially in Sumeria and Babylon um and we kind of see some of this in the Bible uh whenever like uh there's that story of but are the people if it's a form of worship and it's

[00:26:00] in the temple are they being compensated that is kind of unknown um like they're being compensated as in they're being taken care of at least through the temple um Hammurabi's code according to that a

[00:26:16] temple prostitute was entitled to some of the inheritance of her father um but she couldn't sell it so she wasn't like equal to a man but she at least like according to Hammurabi's code

[00:26:33] she's supposed to be able to like be able to live off some of the inheritance and if something like there there's just like three different things that it's just to make sure

[00:26:45] that she's taken care of okay so it it was more of like an occupation um but I guess maybe in a more communistic sense of like you do this job and then your needs are taken care of type thing

[00:27:00] okay so it wasn't like money per se so yeah but your ancient compensation you know yeah yeah uh and so this is like what Jude references whenever he gets tricked into having to

[00:27:15] having sex with is it Tamar I want to say it was Tamar um and he thinks that she's a temple prostitute in this village and then they're like no we don't have a temple prostitute so yeah there are like religious religiously associated prostitution but at the same time

[00:27:39] we don't know how extensive that was and uh a lot of uh a lot of like festivals and stuff probably had nudity and performances that were of a more sexual nature okay but again this is coming

[00:27:54] through like a very uh anti other cultures perspectives that we're doing this handed down from what's interesting is still and that's that's still a big one um it is and they're like dance erotic

[00:28:09] dance um of course like we all think of strippers and we think of pole dance and we think of things like that I also burlesque or peep peep shows like that there's an argument I would say

[00:28:20] to be made for that um as well um also like performance pieces like um uh like rope tying performance pieces like yeah yeah those would yeah those would either be fall under sex work or sex

[00:28:42] work adjacent that's yeah again the lines are really blurry um what is super interesting though is like the sumerians a lot of the temple worship was associated with the goddess Inanna who had actual transgender uh priests and priestesses that uh it's like the earliest recordings of

[00:29:12] trans people and they were seen as uh more connected to the goddess Inanna and um that's why like Joseph uh is given there's like the way that Joseph is treated in Genesis is actually very

[00:29:34] similar to how one of the Gala of Inanna would have been treated um Joseph is getting given clothes that is defined by the bible as clothing war by the virgin daughters of the kings of old

[00:29:50] which would have been Israel and so specifically feminine feminine clothes uh Joseph is spoken in feminine beauty terms that are only used of of Rachel um and then they're given like a more

[00:30:12] feminine role in Egypt so like the story of Joseph actually has way too many connections to be being trans so what you're telling me is that Joseph in his coat of many colors this is where

[00:30:27] the queer rainbow came from probably not I we probably co-opted that from someone I should be careful what I say because I really don't know where that came from and like knowing us

[00:30:41] it's appropriated but like I you know what I just I they were trying I feel like they were trying to tell us future queers something like she's one of you you know I don't know yeah uh

[00:30:54] yeah the fact that Joseph has like these visions and stuff that was common with Gala's in in Sumeria in in Babylon especially in the city of Ur which is where Abraham supposedly came from

[00:31:13] there was a big temple to Inanna there so are you saying that there's um then a good chance that there were like transgender sex workers um working then but in the Christian tradition

[00:31:28] then I mean I know we're surrounded by this but was there ever a time when it was like kosher for Christians to partake? Uh yes um there were actually instances in Christian history um if we're talking about specifically trans people no but uh there there's parts in Christian

[00:31:49] history where prostitution was seen as a net positive because it kept the number of rapes down and unwanted pregnancies which I like being pro sex work I I don't know if that's the right way

[00:32:10] to talk about it it's a very like men still using women type way like we have an issue with you know men raping women so we're going to most likely have sex slaves and say it's okay

[00:32:25] for them to at least exchange money which I suppose is slightly better but in that case it's not the it's not the sex worker or the work itself that is unethical it is the power dynamic

[00:32:41] and the way that they are being taken advantage of that is unethical um and and yeah like we said get too deep into all of the things that are unethical but of course you know um even

[00:32:55] even things like that persist today I yeah I wonder so next developments I guess I'm wondering about I'm guessing probably some imagery too um was common during those days no they didn't have you know camera phones or whatever but

[00:33:17] what if we so and we've held on to that now what the movement into kind of the modern day that's been an interesting progression because it feels like it feels like we kind of started at the most basic levels with like again modern day being a

[00:33:41] broad term we had yeah like magazines became a big thing right and then eventually we got over here to to webcam like webcams and what we're doing now but there was there was a period in between

[00:33:55] there when it was mostly magazines then film um and now we still have you know like pornographic films but there's also more independent work what else would fall under the category of sex work historically or presently uh so I mean historically this

[00:34:23] is more this is on the unethical side you could almost include historically you might be able to include like giving up daughters like kings giving up daughters for um political relations with another country that seems more like trafficking than sex it is it is it is very

[00:34:47] much trafficking yeah so um but yeah we've increased our ability to like expand what sex work is especially with the rise of technology so like the the invention of so okay we like we have more

[00:35:11] smut today in literature than we ever did because it's easier to write things however smut has always existed the song of songs is is yeah it's smut I will climb your tree and grab hold of your fruit

[00:35:30] I will reach for I will reach forward and grab the knob of your door I will climb your pillar Lord God Almighty yeah that there's some sexy stuff up in there back when

[00:35:48] I was a youth pastor that there was an uh an interpretive reading from the song of Solomon oh my god no yes there was it was hilarious well because it was a talk about like we used to do

[00:36:01] the tough questions you know where we would let them write down anonymous questions turn them in and then we would our next uh like at youth group we would do talks on those topics and one of the

[00:36:10] ones that we got was why don't Christians ever talk about sex except to say it's bad and I was like actually God thinks sex is really good let's hear an interpretive reading from the scriptures and

[00:36:22] it was a great way to open it up because if you have to talk to a room full of teenagers about awkward topics like this like you maybe make them laugh first um their faces are all just

[00:36:31] like oh god oh god oh god you know so um it was it was a great time but that song of Solomon is juicy it's there's a lot in there uh it's the only place in the bible where you're gonna find out that

[00:36:45] having uh getting high and having premarital sex in a vineyard is celebrated so the best way to worship if you ask me so yeah yeah we've got all that I feel like

[00:37:00] I there's so many things that I'm missing I know their categories are missing but the point is sex work is you know the exchange of uh sexual service um broadly for um compensation and so for some

[00:37:14] of us our sex work might look different than others and and we do kind of get to define that if we feel like we are presenting our body in a sexual and vulnerable way um now I just I just

[00:37:28] thought of I think what we were trying to remember um escort services slash oh yes sugar daddy sugar baby type stuff for sure those are yeah those are also included uh in the in the sex work

[00:37:45] on bro there's so much there's so much and I know that I'm missing a bunch of stuff we're not we're not necessarily here to talk about like every single thing that is sex work but that's

[00:37:54] a broad overview you know we we can all um kind of glean glean from that and and and and I think understand that and apply that that lens that we've given um now being a sex worker comes with

[00:38:12] its own implications um sex work has always been if not criminalized at least um kind of vilified we um kind of looked down upon and shamed and you know that was true as we talked

[00:38:34] about in these in these ancient cultures and it's still true now and being a sex worker means facing some discrimination um and dealing with some difficult stuff so what does it look like to be a

[00:38:49] sex worker in the modern world um you know of course I can only speak from from my lens the lens of my experience which is relatively small um but uh Alicia I know can probably

[00:39:08] share a little bit as well and we've got friends so yeah that I mean there's been times in history and so we're talking specifically about the history that's led to our western culture which is why

[00:39:25] going back to like I think it's okay to go back to like Babylon and talk about like trends and stuff because that led to Christianity which led to the colonization of Europe and

[00:39:37] then Europe colonizing every place else I don't know enough about like geishas in in Japan so um I can't I can't really speak to that but throughout throughout the west's history of sex work uh

[00:39:54] there have been periods where it's been legalized and taxed and and things like that however those times or never it's moved into a more sex positive landscape it has nearly every single time

[00:40:12] become more exploitative than um like empowering and we like we see that in Greek culture Greek made the Greeks made sex work uh democratized which is really interesting but then it was like women were exploited eventually through that uh specifically women um yeah and then throughout like Christian

[00:40:44] cultures it's always been seen as this negative uh like if you are a sex worker you aren't going to get married and so there's always this straight to hell um but what's interesting about that is

[00:41:02] the generally women who use sex work to empower themselves and there's always been a subversive aspect to sex work especially in like hyper-sex negative cultures um like some of the some of the things that we know about early queerness in the United States uh specifically the United States

[00:41:29] not in uh indigenous cultures that were genocided by white supremacists uh but like what we know about queerness in the earliest parts of America is generally through um sex worker black sex workers

[00:41:47] and sex workers of color who were using that to empower themselves to make a way in the world in in a world that uh was intentionally against them and so like there there was one trans woman

[00:42:07] and I should have looked up her name before that's who um she literally made she made like a um a cloth vagina it's that and that's what men used and they didn't know that they were using it which

[00:42:23] I don't know how but that's besides the point like she she would use it to also gain secrets and like grow in status because she uh she was using it to her to her advantage so there's always been

[00:42:39] like a very subversive aspect to sex work even in very sex negative cultures which is to me is is an it's an incredible history to step into uh I do think that we're in a time where sex work

[00:42:54] is becoming more positive it's being seen as more acceptable by a larger number of people and at the same time it's becoming more independent in that more people get a say in how they engage in sex work which hasn't always been a thing

[00:43:19] that's absolutely true um the the independent sector I just I'm a I'm a big fan of the the control that we are now able to have over our content um of course there are flaws we don't have perfect

[00:43:34] control um and even if you're working for yourself uh there's there really is there's there really is there's there's still discrimination while while as a whole I would say the country is becoming more sex positive and when you're on you know the internet when you're on social media

[00:43:54] and you're interacting with people you know from our generation you're gonna feel like oh yeah people are sex positive I've got you know thousands of followers who like looking at my tits but

[00:44:05] and aren't ashamed of it but then you know back out here feet on the ground um the like the small you know rural community that I live in for instance I have to be careful um I have to

[00:44:19] be very careful and no matter how careful I am there's there's there are going to be challenges there are some banks that will shut down your cards if they realize where you're getting

[00:44:33] money from there are apps that will shut you down immediately if someone puts the wrong thing in the title and they figure out that this is for for sexual services um things like paypal you can't

[00:44:46] use mastercard like you can't use mastercard no you there are some and I will also tell you things like this theoretically if they're not affecting your family um should not affect

[00:45:02] uh any sort of legal decisions but when I went through my custody struggle um you know my my ex knows my twitter handle and was constantly going on and like screenshotting pictures of my ass and

[00:45:18] stuff and submitting this so that they're now you know public record and and using this to try and like bias the judge against me and show that you know I'm an irresponsible like flip

[00:45:30] sexually charged mother and in a very conservative town like you know that can that can work even if it shouldn't sometimes um so you think about the implications for for your family for yourself

[00:45:43] for your day job right how are how are they going to respond if they were to know um what would my parents think you know all these different things it will yeah there's still a lot of you

[00:45:55] have to think through all of these different pieces because it's not just it's also not a given that it's generally accepted yet and um I wish it were I wish it were easier it definitely

[00:46:07] needs to be yeah and there was a politician who did cam work and somebody like exposed that which should be illegal by the way if if somebody's running for office and you throw up some like

[00:46:23] image of them doing sex work like it's basically revenge porn and uh that's incredibly just it's incredibly unethical uh and to be fair illegal to docs anyone you general like yeah absolutely

[00:46:42] should be illegal uh but at the same time like that shouldn't matter like there are so many like politically savvy sex workers out there that you should probably want them running the country

[00:46:58] in a lot of ways just oh absolutely do you want someone who knows how to like run business do pr like how you know communications with constituents and like the the stage presence you want

[00:47:13] somebody who can like write a description I don't know you know right or like I know what people need it's oh absolutely being just so like tuned in and and and having a really an understanding of kind

[00:47:33] of building something from the ground up um there's something to be said for that that's really valuable drama experience yeah so the fact that we're like shaming some of this stuff is it's

[00:47:46] it's just it's it's dumb because it's based off of prejudice that shouldn't be there like it really shouldn't sex workers tend to have a better understanding of sexual ethics than your average

[00:48:00] Christian person yeah absolutely but um but it is there it's there for for a lot of reasons there's the fact that we think of ourselves as a Christian nation um outside of that even people who

[00:48:17] don't consider themselves um Christians will look down on sex workers or even um you know women who aren't sex workers but like to I don't know like have bodies bring a body count yeah you know

[00:48:34] whatever yeah so I I just think it's it's really it's really pervasive the idea that to show your body somehow makes you like dirty um and and and like there's like this

[00:48:54] there's this piece where we think of this certain stereotype of this person and we think of a certain type of character and for some reason it's assumed that sex workers are just like these cross kind of unintelligent like I there is this this really interesting kind of

[00:49:17] kind of understanding and meanwhile I look at the sex workers around me and I'm like damn these are some of the most resourceful intelligent adaptable people I've ever met you have to know how to do five different jobs to do this well and yeah yeah I'm I'm

[00:49:38] constantly and inevitably impressed um but I think I think I don't know how we're going to overcome that but I hope that conversations like these will kind of be a decent start I this is one

[00:49:54] of the reasons we started this podcast is because people just aren't talking about ethical sex work and and what that means and why we should invite that into our our lives in our culture and I think

[00:50:11] I'm sure people are but not not even not enough people and we want we want in on that conversation because we don't know where to where to find it so we're going to create it but uh

[00:50:22] yeah it's it's really time that we kind of shine the light on on this entire world and actually how um kind of beautiful it can be yeah and it's uh there just there isn't enough people

[00:50:39] talking about sex positive positivity um and it goes it goes on like it's not even just like hyper conservative people like let's let's take a quick moment to talk about everybody's favorite

[00:50:57] topic JD Vance and the the rumor that he that he fucked a couch um which first of all like if we're gonna be honest there is a significant number of men who have used a couch to masturbate

[00:51:18] and there are worse things to fuck I mean I listen I I for me as a child I nap time was a time was you know it was my alone time so let's take a nap um and I cabbage patch doll my cabbage patch

[00:51:34] doll was my first I that's what I helped so I don't yeah yeah I mean admit it there's cushions there's pressure between the cushions like I mean if you have a penis and you want to try it go for

[00:51:49] it like that they I think the fact yeah it's not it's not other people's business I think the fact though is so it highlights two things one highlight sex negativity on on a progressive side um

[00:52:05] and then on the other side like there's also hyper sex negativity because the dude feels like he has to defend it and say it never like he's never done that which is weird in in and of itself

[00:52:18] like if somebody said that I did a weird masturbation thing I would be like whatever and move on but fact they can you imagine if he just came out and made it like a whole joke just like

[00:52:31] make a whole bunch of pins for all of your fans that are just couches like just they are just walking around with a couch pin like make it a whole thing make your stickers like put

[00:52:40] your name on a fucking couch like make it a joke and run with it and in my opinion yeah like hire me for your PR team um yeah actually yeah do that because you would make sure they lose and that would

[00:52:55] be awesome but oh yeah 100% would sabotage it please don't take these ideas um but it's like you should be embracing it if you're gonna be smart about it because make it a work just ignore it

[00:53:10] that works you know I would make it a joke because I'm funny but that's just me um yeah but and just the idea that he probably would be his constituents which is perfect actually

[00:53:23] that's what we want that's what we want but just the just the fact that he feels the absolute need to deny it so much and spend money denying it uh just blows my mind because that's like the

[00:53:37] level of sex-negativity that exists in a world that he's like yeah I can't let people know that I once masturbated still like that's really that's really what it's at the dude has like hands down the that I'm sure hands where hands hands where

[00:54:06] the dude definitely has covenant eyes on his computer I'm sure of it just probably probably you know I'm really just trying to make up I think for the tattoo I I again these are these are ideas that were taught to us by the Christian church

[00:54:29] mm-hmm but that doesn't mean they weren't pervasive elsewhere so for me where I grew up there was a program called stars um students today are I did stars yeah did you

[00:54:39] do stars I did stars okay this is I'm trying to make up for stars right now oh my god me too okay so in stars if y'all haven't heard of this um there is a curriculum students today aren't

[00:54:51] ready for sex and it is like a like you do like a workshop like a session um I think it's once a week for you know six yeah whatever it is and you can become a star's leader if you're in high school

[00:55:05] high school students will go in learn the curriculum and then teach it to middle school students and it is which is weird it's so weird it's absent training but the reason that they

[00:55:15] do that is because if they can get high schoolers to come in and teach it to middle schoolers they know that the middle schoolers are more likely to listen to them than to an adult

[00:55:24] they're like oh these these kids are cool so I was a fucking stars instructor and I'm doing abstinence only training with these kids and then I've got friends next to me that are

[00:55:33] teaching abstinence only and I like I know what they were doing last Friday you know what I'm saying and like they just like wanted the hours for their volunteering because we had to do a

[00:55:42] certain amount of volunteering meanwhile like they've got us doing the most toxic shit and there's I remember a session where we had to put like posters on the walls like different

[00:55:52] all the posters are you go or how far you've gone and people are underneath of it oh my god the horror and it's just I wonder if stars is still a thing I don't even want to know honestly I do

[00:56:06] but I don't and so yeah it better not be but this is a public again this is a public school we're talking like religion's not allowed in classrooms but abstinence only training is still

[00:56:18] a thing um and that's still the mindset of so many of the people in that town that I grew up with like purity culture exists outside of purity culture outside of the church and it's just

[00:56:32] mind blowing to me I just I do with having these sex positive conversations it's obviously not something that I got to engage in when I was young yeah and this feels really educational for me and

[00:56:45] it feels like healing and redemptive and I'm just so glad that we are having these conversations definitely yeah this is our makeup for stars and so the reason why absence only was taught in

[00:57:00] schools yeah it was taught in schools because the religious right people like James Dobson who oh yeah watched watched porn for research purposes uh like actually convinced Bill Clinton to fund abstinence only sex in schools James Dobson was researching with his dick

[00:57:27] and then yeah he was like nobody else is allowed to use their dick that's what I found out but yeah basically yeah I don't care so uh a story from stars we listened to a song by the

[00:57:45] Spice Girls and we had to pick out all of the sexual references but here's the thing I was so naive whenever I went into that I didn't know that there were sexual references in this song oh my god

[00:58:04] I wrote a paper in college um on a Britney Spears video and how deeply inappropriate it was and actually while she thought she was being feminist it was anti-feminist because well I think I did

[00:58:20] actually but um wow like I was y'all I was deeply brainwashed I was so far into the cult and here we are having all these conversations um but I just want you to know if you're recently

[00:58:36] emerging from that or just starting to question things I've been there um and these these conversations I think really really lend themselves to that phase of life as well so yeah um don't run away

[00:58:51] if you're feeling some shame me too I mean I was I was sex negative up until I don't know five years ago like yeah same yeah it's it's a it's a journey and you get there when you you get there uh but

[00:59:14] part of it is being willing to to at least ask the question of like why why do I believe this and it's a scary question and I think yeah I for me I became more sex positive like a little

[00:59:31] but then I came out and then I became really sex positive and I've noticed this trend of course there's I guess I I don't know statistically speaking but colloquially speaking it would seem to me

[00:59:46] that queer people in general tend to be more sex positive um more open to different types of relationships uh different structures polyamory things like that and I I wonder if part of that does have to do with the willingness to ask questions and then say really vulnerable stuff

[01:00:07] about your preferences out loud um there's also a lack of reliance on the status quo exactly you you once you are willing to say I don't fit within this construct maybe you have

[01:00:21] people that will reject you for that and then it's like well now I am free that was how it was for me anyway now I'm free and I can now any construct I choose like those disapproving people aren't even

[01:00:34] here like I was afraid I was gonna lose them I already did now what do I want and um that's that's so freeing to start asking questions about what you want and the person that you

[01:00:45] want to be and the type of character that you want to have and choosing your belief system based on that and so yeah I just I'm really grateful for this this upper this opportunity

[01:00:57] and grateful to the person who asked the question where do I find this resource um because here here we are um I think primarily because of that trying to make resources yeah yeah and also because

[01:01:11] Alicia is great and we have just like wanted to be able to sit and have conversations about this stuff forever and so why not invite people in and make it a regularly scheduled thing something like that and always have yeah my my autistic hyperfocuses tend to be very

[01:01:34] historically focused so my autistic hyperfocuses are just once I'm once I'm into something it's just I want to know I want to know everything yeah it's not I think for me it's not that I just want to know everything I also I want to tell

[01:01:55] everything one of them now and then tell it in info dump because yeah the info dumping is is one of my favorite parts yeah yeah I totally get that I've always really enjoyed

[01:02:10] studying for the purpose of teaching I remember like preaching and and that was like one of my favorite parts of the job I found it really interesting and trying to figure out how to

[01:02:21] tie things back to cultural references I gave talks on like there was a doctor who episode one time I did a talk that referenced the movie warm bodies is that what it's called no the one with

[01:02:33] about the zombies the gift brought back to life by love anyway I I don't remember so much fun I don't remember that one but I totally get it and we are we are here to kind of

[01:02:47] do some info dumping and do some discussion and open up conversations and hopefully we'll keep having these conversations right um interact with us on social media we've got our twitter is up and running I know it's X but I can't I just can't um and

[01:03:03] we've got an email as well where you can reach out to us at any time we would love to take ideas for podcast topics there if there are specific things that you want to hear us talk

[01:03:13] about um or questions that you have about recent episodes that maybe we go back and clarify in the future or even just because you want to have a conversation all of that

[01:03:23] it will be in the show notes yeah perfect well we've been uh uh um talking about sex work for approximately an hour now um so it's time for us to free you um thank you so much for listening

[01:03:43] and being with us if you can think of more types of sex work um please let us know we want to talk about this is definitely more oh yeah so many so much or if you have a different

[01:03:54] definition of what sex work means to you that would be really interesting um to see so maybe we should um have that question on the internet since yeah people have to say when when this goes out

[01:04:05] we're gonna ask this question when this goes out is okay um is tradwife content on the internet sex work oh let's see what people say girl i like it i like it all right well we'll be talking

[01:04:24] to you soon thanks so much for tuning in thank you everyone bye