So Your Partner is a Sex Worker

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit Dauntless.ethem for more content.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello heathens, I'm Wyld Violet

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and I'm Transvangelical

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is Not Safe for Worship.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Here we talk about the ethics of sex work and sexuality in general

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: through the lens of post-religious trauma.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_02]: These are deeply personal topics for us and we strive to delve in with humor and respect

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: but we do discuss very sensitive and potentially triggering subjects on a regular basis.

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Please practice self-care and compassion, take breaks or even stop listening if you need to.

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: We care deeply about you and your well-being.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome everyone to this week's episode of Not Safe for Worship.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_05]: This episode we're going to be talking about dating especially dating as a sex worker

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and if you're thinking that this might not have anything to apply to you because you're not a

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_05]: sex worker well that's probably not true because a lot of things are kind of universal whenever it

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_05]: comes to like communication and consent and things like that. I personally am not ever dated per se

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_05]: while being a sex worker. I've been married the whole time

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_05]: but Violet has more experience in that area than I do.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I have done a little bit of dating actually the first time that I did sex work it was a

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: brief stint on OnlyFans and I was still married at the time after my divorce though is when I kind

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of really got involved and when I jumped back in I jumped in in a different way.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't the same kind of building from the ground up and just like a whole bunch of retweeting

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and everybody and hoping for the best it was more intentional business structure. That was

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: let's see I was in a relationship when I when I restarted this time around actually and then

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I had a breakup and then I've done some casual dating and now I am back in a monogamous relationship.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've definitely navigated this with a couple of different types of humans.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't say that that makes me an expert. It's always a learning curve.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a conversation that I'm interested to have. I'm sure that the still currently married

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: one among us probably has some great advice and experiences to share because clearly you're

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_05]: doing something right. I mean I don't know if you can give me the credit for everything

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_05]: because the two of you. Yeah I do have an amazing partner and one that was

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_05]: very open to listening especially whenever I brought up that idea of like starting in Onlyfans and

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_05]: which isn't necessarily always the case because I didn't start I think we have a cliched idea

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_05]: of how people start Onlyfans which is like I'm a desperate need of money and so this

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_05]: is something that you can do. That wasn't me I wanted to do it for myself which is

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_05]: somewhat different so it was a different conversation and my partner was cool with it honestly

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_05]: but we do like we do have some ground rules and stuff if you've noticed or if you follow

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_05]: me on Onlyfans like I don't I haven't done any collab work it's because relationally we're not

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_05]: in a place where that works for us and we're not necessarily closed off to it in the future

[00:04:15] [SPEAKER_05]: but part of that like part of doing sex work and being in relationship is that communication part

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_05]: because consent goes in all directions so yeah there's just kind of just being able to

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_05]: communicate and talk and say hey this is what I'm thinking what do you think and the communication

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_05]: back and forth to where there is an understanding of what's going on and everybody is consenting

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to what's going on. Yeah absolutely that's I think that's really the most important part when

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we're when we're talking about the concept of ethical dating first of all first of all

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess before I delve any deeper into that communication side of things

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I use the word ethical dating as a sex worker I use that term and there are a lot of people

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: in the world and probably almost everyone in the culture that we come from would say

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that there's no such thing as ethical dating as a sex worker

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: there is an understanding in the culture at large that if you're showing your body your nudity to

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: other people or interacting with other people in any such way that you're probably untrustworthy

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of slimy a cheater like maybe and I don't know if that's something that you've experienced

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Alicia but that has been kind of my there seems to be a pocket of people who think that

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_02]: if you're a sex worker like you're just you're just dirty and dating you would not be ethical

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: and allowing allowing quote unquote your partner to do sex work would be unethical

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: so I mean there but first of all we got to dispel that idea of it yeah I mean

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: there are definitely plenty of like incels on the internet that say things like I would never

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_05]: date somebody with an only fans and it's just honestly I think a lot of it comes from a place

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_05]: of insecurity but it's very ingrained in our culture it's ingrained that a woman's body

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_05]: like we've talked about this a lot it's ingrained that a woman's body belongs to a man

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_05]: and that's very heteronormative but that's where our culture is and so there are a lot

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_05]: of people who think that if a woman is on the internet like exposing part of her body she is

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_05]: doing something that is essentially against the man that she is married to or will get married to

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_05]: and there's generally an underlying like thread of used goods in in kind of a way like

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_05]: you can't date a sex worker because you know what good is she like that's really kind of

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_05]: and I mean that's just toxic that's just toxic type of view of of women in general but it's being

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_05]: applied in the area of sex work but because it's still kind of seen as this more fringe thing

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_05]: which is probably good I mean I think maybe not maybe it would be a bad thing if the majority

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_05]: of people were doing sex work I don't know but maybe it should stay French yeah it's already

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_05]: saturated and we're not even half like majority so yeah um yeah but it's still kind of this like

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_05]: taboo-ish type thing to to have relationship with somebody who does expose their body because

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_05]: there is an underlying understanding that a woman's body belongs to a man absolutely and even aside

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know so there's that cultural understanding that we see and I think um that's a really you

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: know misogynistic way of looking at a woman's body and so much of misogyny is real tied up

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_02]: with or was co-opted from religion and so um you know at the religious level I would say

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: most most people most religions I would say have a a both that like possession of a woman's

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: body thing but also that it's a sin thing where this woman is must be morally corrupt as well

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_05]: and would therefore not be suitable for dating so yeah and that's that's mostly a western

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_05]: a westernized concept uh not that there aren't other patriarchal studies because there are

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_02]: um so maybe not western but it's western religions or yeah we're kind of dealing with it within the

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_05]: western perspective I that's why I can't necessarily speak to like eastern yeah is where we exist I

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_05]: can't really speak to eastern type cultures but like women's bodies in certain areas don't

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_05]: necessarily mean the same don't necessarily mean the same thing like there there's a reason why

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Europeans went into Africa and saw like women dressed quote immodest and decided that that was a

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: sign that they were sexually deviant right like right and and and that their culture was behind

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_02]: underdeveloped they hadn't learned to cover themselves up yet as opposed to maybe the fact

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: that like this this actually was a development the step forward because of where they live

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_02]: in their circumstances and environment that you know

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah we love to do that but what's interesting though is most of I would say most European

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_02]: countries have a very different view of bodies and of modesty and of nudity than we do in America

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_05]: as well um well that's because America institutionalized racism significantly longer than other places

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_05]: just you know just for an example like the Nazis got their idea for like laws against Jewish people

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_05]: based off of the United States is Jim Crow laws they just thought that they could do Jim Crow

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_05]: laws better than the United States could because the United States was a little bit more random

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_05]: and how they did it like they would allow lynching every once while and then Nazi Germany was

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_05]: like well maybe if we don't just have random people doing this we will just institutionalize it

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_05]: but like the racism in the United States lasted to the point where like Germany moved away from it

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_05]: and then the Nazis came in and they're like oh let's be influenced by by the United States so

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_05]: we we are really good in the United States of holding on to incredibly negative

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: understandings and uh we are number one we win the first place trophy for every terrible competition

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_02]: like every competition at being the worst we're the best we're the best that's just

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_05]: fundamentally true about the United States and we saw part of it is like

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_05]: the the weaponization of female bodies was so integral to maintaining power over

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_05]: well mostly black bodies but just any non-white bodies because the narrative of being sexually

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_05]: deviant was just it was this thing that was developed in in Europe to really be like yeah

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_05]: they can't handle like they can't handle being civilized we need to have power over them and then

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_05]: like white people owned black slaves and you know I don't know if anybody's been in the south

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_05]: the south is hot it is very hot in the south and so you know female slaves would wear clothing that

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_05]: was not uh anabellum white dress right because you can't work in fields in that type of that type

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_05]: of outfit and so then it was seen as them being hypersexual because they were out in the fields

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_02]: you know what i'm realizing we probably we gotta put a disclaimer on this episode um

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and I guess this this is true of all of them you know this is always kind of our opinions and

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_02]: our experiences um but we're talking about the ethics of dating as a sex worker today

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: and it occurs to me that we can only give you one tiny sliver of that and that's from our own

[00:13:42] [SPEAKER_02]: white um American and like you know female identifying perspective um I imagine that

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_02]: um a man or or a non-binary person or what have I imagined that there

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_02]: is a different probably conception of of their work um and different different struggles um

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_02]: different different obstacles um different biases so I know we can only really speak I guess from

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_02]: from our relatively narrow lens so this is just recognizing that while we're discussing ethical

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_02]: dating as a sex worker there might be some of this that just you know doesn't make sense to

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you but I think that's really the the key is that I don't know if there's any such thing

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_02]: as one ethical way to date I'm sorry let me rephrase that there is no such thing as one ethical

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: way to date and um kind of circling back to what Alicia touched on earlier about communication

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's really what it comes down to um and we're talking about a specific type of

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: communication there's there's ethical and unethical communication within relationships

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is key whether you're dating a sex worker or not ethical communication looks like

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: not quickly just answering with the response that you know your partner wants to hear

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_02]: and not sugarcoating things or telling half truths or lying outright it means actually

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: telling the whole truth so that the consent that is communicated inside of the relationship

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_02]: is always given freely and fully with full understanding of what's going on

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_02]: so I think that's that's an important thing to know the type of communication

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_02]: is is really important and it really does matter we're not just talking about vomiting your every

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: thought onto your partner we're not just talking about telling them your every fleeting

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_02]: desire we're talking about communicating carefully uh with with with this this

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: person that you're meant to to protect us that's what it means um to be in a partnership

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_02]: at least and uh yeah well that's my my two cents on communication anyway I think how we do it is

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_05]: really important definitely I you used you used a um a purity culture term and I just thought it was

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_05]: so funny not that it's not necessarily a bad term to use but you said your job is to protect

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_05]: your partner and I just remember how much like that was used for for men like oh my god you have to

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: protect you have to protect their hearts I know that you weren't saying it that way but honestly

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you do you do have to protect your partner's heart but not not the way that they said it

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: like protecting your own genitals no yeah and not in we're we're not talking about like

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: codependence where you are responsible you take on responsibility for every single one of your

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: partner's emotions about your feelings we're talking about like you know real actual open

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_05]: communication yeah so I mean they're different there are I mean there are certain terms that

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_05]: were used in purity culture that weren't necessarily the worst thing they were kind of twisted but

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I just thought it was it's like oh hey I've heard that before um absolutely we twist in all kinds

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: of stuff those Jesus folks I think I'm we're gonna take some of them back although I'm not gonna

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: walk around talking about protecting people's hearts because like I don't I don't know that's a

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: little a little much I wouldn't want to be a lot of every now and then we'll talk about it but

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah definitely like communication is is completely like you said there is ethical and

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_05]: unethical communication um and I think that we kind of assume that just talking like talking to

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_05]: a partner um or partners is somehow what we're looking for but just random communication isn't

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_05]: necessarily it's it does have to be honest and like understanding of of your perspective and

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_05]: also the other person's perspective which kind of gets back to I don't know the rambling that I

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_05]: was giving uh as far as like you know the historical understanding of bodies is like

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_05]: the the way that I was told to have relationship with my body and how my body is in relationship

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_05]: with a partner's that is kind of unique to myself and it's not universal so not only do we have

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_05]: a challenge of like we're kind of talking specifically about us in sex work having relationships

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_05]: but at the same time like the context for every person in any type of relationship is different

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_05]: and so it does take it does take a lot of more understanding and a more willingness to learn

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_05]: and listen and um honestly a lot of letting a lot of letting like a partner lets you know that

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_05]: your assumptions about them can be wrong uh which is sometimes it's sometimes really difficult

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah yeah and you know we're talking a lot on this podcast about um sexual consent and about

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: consent to the relationship structure but but but try to think about consent in all areas of your

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: life try to think about for me if I'm dating if I'm in a partnership if I'm you know I what I want

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: is shared joy and one of the only ways to get that is to be really really clear I think um

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_02]: about like what what brings you joy and and what doesn't and so you can you can do this in all areas

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: of your relationship talk about um you know okay are there are there certain words

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_02]: when I meet someone and especially when I when I've met someone new um I will sometimes ask them

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you know especially if they mention that they've had a lot of trauma like oh okay are there any

[00:20:48] [SPEAKER_02]: things that I need to be especially aware of or you know are there types of tv shows you don't

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: want to watch should I not sneak up behind you and scare startle you should I be really

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: careful you know there's like and it can be different for everyone so I'll ask about trigger

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: words and the way that they consent to being spoken to and the way that they consent to

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: being touched outside of the bedroom hey and this is an important one when you're in a lesbian

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship especially depending on you know where you are in the world hey are you comfortable with

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_02]: public displays of affection can I grab your hand in a public place can I whatever so you

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_02]: can really think about this across across the board and um and and and I think asking questions

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is really kind of the underlying this is how you get to all of this to clear communication

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: to enthusiastic consent it's just ask a lot of questions don't be afraid to keep asking questions

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: there are some of us neurodivergence who just want to sit there and go are you okay are you mad

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: at me is everything okay that's not the kind of questions I mean again we're not talking about

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: codependence we're talking about like how do you feel about this yeah is it okay is it like when

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I you know I love to the colloquial bitch is like a term of endearment for me but I'll

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: typically ask people first hey is it okay if I call you like bitch affectionately like it's not

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_05]: everyone loves that you know I so yeah I'm generally not necessarily the biggest fan of that

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_05]: of which I know that you've used that for me and like good so no see if it if you had said it

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: in a way that bothered me I would have let you know um yeah but but I like I that's clear

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_05]: communication folks yeah right there um but yeah like I um my partner and I have different levels of

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_05]: physical touch that we are comfortable with outside outside of the bedroom um

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_05]: it I mean honestly probably inside the bedroom too but uh sure because because not

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_05]: there are things that are like enjoyable for me that's not necessarily enjoyable for

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_05]: for my partner and that is normal actually like um everybody has like different nerves and

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_05]: senses and feelings bring bring up emotional feelings and so there's

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_05]: there's honestly there's just so much to talk about within relationships in general

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_05]: and we're not even talking about the topic which is sex work um we really we store we store so much

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_02]: in our bodies and I just think it's so important to be aware of your partner's heart and also

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: their physical body and also their trauma and also what makes them tick and what they enjoy and

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and theoretically we should naturally want to pay attention to all of these things for

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_02]: some of us it maybe takes a little bit more effort but but again I don't know about y'all but the

[00:24:01] [SPEAKER_02]: purpose of a relationship for me is shared joy and to be able to delight in one another to be able

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: to depend on one another um periodically to to and I I think that it's easy to

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: get locked into a relationship that's all about getting our own needs met um instead of thinking

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: about the relationship as a whole um and how it's affecting us and in the world around us so

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't know if that makes sense but I mean yeah it does make sense to me um

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I a lot of us struggle with the fact that communication isn't necessarily taught to us within

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_05]: um the at least the evangelical culture I neither one of us can even speak to like what

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_05]: premarital counseling might look like to if I don't know if people get it

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_05]: if they're not uh religious or something but like within mine was it was like at church and you

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_05]: know there was a little workbook exactly uh it in so like we didn't even talk about sex really

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_05]: at all other than to have the person reinforce that me being the perceived male in the relationship

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_05]: would want sex more than my partner and that has and hasn't been true throughout our relationship

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_05]: because it's it it's honestly I don't know like sexual interest is actually fluid

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_05]: sometimes and it's that's not a bad thing um because everybody has things going on their life

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_05]: but I think that we're given such like this cookie cutter understanding of what marriage is supposed

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_05]: to look like that we just we're not taught to actually talk about things that might be perceived

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_05]: outside of like the Christian marriage and so we were essentially set up to fail I think

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that those things we were taught that you're not supposed to talk about certain stuff until

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: you're married but really when we're talking about clear communication when we're talking about consent

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_02]: before you're making a commitment like marriage if you're consenting to something like that then

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: really there should be a lot of conversations about what that's gonna look like every aspect of

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_02]: it and you know I think that that also applies when you're getting into a relationship with

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_02]: someone who is a sex worker or when you yourself are dating as a sex worker I think just upfront

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_02]: having conversations about what your work looks like what you're doing what to expect what this

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_02]: person would be comfortable with and I think you know before you enter into like a real

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship with someone I think that that's part of ethical communication is making sure that

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: everyone understands what your job looks like and what you are and are not willing to compromise on

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: and for the other person as well what what they are and are not willing to compromise on some

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_02]: people are very very comfortable dating or being married to people who do a lot of collaborations

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and a lot of different types of we're seen weren't you know whatever there are so many

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_02]: different ways to do or even full service you know full service sex workers day get married you know

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_02]: this is not many many people are set up for that many people are you know set up for polyamory

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: outside of sex work and then there are certain people who are you know more set up for monogamy

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and maybe that also extends to sex work maybe they don't feel completely comfortable

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: even for work as and again I would not classify what we do for work as non monogamy just to clarify

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but some people who are very monogamous in their relationship structure also struggle with the idea

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: of more openness around sexual encounters even if it is for work and I think that's the

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_02]: situation that we kind of both find ourselves in is that we've decided in both of our partnerships

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_02]: that we don't do collaborations with other people right now for work right and that's where you are

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_05]: as well but also like it's not necessarily a closed conversation but not that it would be wrong if

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_05]: it was because if that's what it needs to be then that's what it needs to be but

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_05]: it's part of it's it's part of that communication aspect and I think that it's like

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_05]: it's kind of hypocritical to have a different expectation of you know how to engage in communication

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_05]: if you're in relationship with a sex worker because like depending on your occupation you

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_05]: probably should be having conversations about like what you do like somebody goes into the military

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_05]: and they're not letting their partner know that you know they could be gone six to 18 months

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_05]: at a time if somebody works for a like an oil company and like their partner thinks that

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_05]: that's unethical like those are conversations that you need to have. Do you travel a lot to

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_02]: collaborate or are you going to be gone is it going to be a lot of long distance when you

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_02]: collaborate does everyone do STI screenings does your partner always get to see the results of those

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_02]: do you get screened like after a scene how do you how do you set that up what are your boundaries

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_02]: among one another like there are you doing you know after a collaboration do you have to

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_02]: come home and wait for a period and do a COVID test in order for them to be comfortable with

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_02]: more physical contact like they're there are so many things they deserve to know there is

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly a lot going on yeah yeah because it's not just about like hooking up with someone

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_02]: there can be so many layers to that and so they deserve everyone deserves to know exactly what

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_02]: is going on so that they can make educated choices for themselves and their own comfort

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: health and boundaries and that's just so vitally important and literally every single

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: relationship ever but I think you know especially I would say with sex work

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that it's just been it's you know like we said it's still relatively taboo it's still

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_02]: relatively rare and every single relationship is different and every single sex worker does

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_02]: things differently so to date someone new whether they've dated a sex worker before or not

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_02]: is to kind of set up a whole new thing all over again like start start from the beginning with

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_02]: all of those questions um you know there also that there is kind of like a learning curve

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_05]: also like um people people do have to be like also have to learn how to be in relationship with a

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_05]: sex worker as well as sex workers need to learn how to be in relationship with a non-sex worker

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_05]: because it is it is an experience that is not it's not that it's not actually that common

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_05]: um and there's different dynamics that's not to say that this is the only relationship dynamic

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_05]: that has a learning curve but it is one of them um yeah and so that that definitely has to be taken

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: into account yeah there are you know sex workers who would not um be willing to stop

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_02]: collaborating um that's totally ethical and fine just like don't date someone who's not

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: comfortable with that and lie about it right yeah like there's you can whatever it is that

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_02]: works for you there's a way to do that ethically and it has so much to do with telling the truth

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and with you know getting consent and with you know knowing honestly the hardest part is um

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: when your boundaries with someone don't mesh or don't make sense um but

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_02]: it is it is a really unique experience and I think that when you are doing sex work

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_02]: you are inherently receiving attention in a way that just has the tendency to make

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the people that you love and give your attention to um maybe maybe feel a little bit a little bit

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: insecure um and not everyone I guess experiences insecurity but when you are receiving so much

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: attention and you're with someone who is not a sex worker and who maybe doesn't have that

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: experience um explaining the difference between what's real um and what's acting and then also

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: the difference between attention and connection um having a really clear understanding in your

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: mind of what your work is and what your boundaries are with your clients I think

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: that can also be really helpful so that you can express all of that to your partner

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe your boundaries that you have no boundaries like you know all right um

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_02]: it works for some people yeah okay your partner should know that um and that's how I admit plural

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_02]: like plural people not yeah for persons for peoples in relationships yeah I um I just

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I think oh there was something else that I was gonna say and I lost it oh that's what it was

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I was watching have you seen uh you know who Marcel the shell is I don't know if I do

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_02]: oh my gosh they were these little um animated youtube videos and I think I first saw them

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was in college and it's this little shell with a face and shoes on and it was a

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: married couple at the time who created them together there's the the artist that does

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the animations and then uh Jenny Slate um was the the voice um of Marcel the shell and

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Marcel is the cutest I'm first of all I'm obsessed right absolutely obsessed um

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_02]: hello my name is Marcel and as you can see I'm partially a shell but I also have

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_02]: face in some shoes and I like that about myself and I like myself something along

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: those lines and just a lot of like do you know what I use for skis what toenails from a man you know

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: and he's he's hilarious he's just so cute and I can't even get close to that imitation is cheap

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_02]: go watch him on youtube anyway so then just I think um maybe a couple of years ago they came

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: out with a full length Marcel the shell movie Marcel the shell with shoes on it is so so

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: good but one of the experiences that Marcel has is he sees himself on youtube and he's like whoa this

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_02]: is so cool you know look at how many people have watched me and look at all these comments and

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_02]: he's trying to like talk you know respond to their comments in future videos he's trying

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to like talk to them and get them to engage with a certain topic and later he's looking at

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the comments on further youtube videos and they're just like oh he's so cute oh this and that

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: and he goes but but this isn't a community this is an audience and I just like that hit me I was like

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_02]: whoosh that's it because there are people in this world who have become members of my community

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but there's a difference between a community and an audience and there's a difference between

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_02]: your person and a client and there's this it doesn't hit the same maybe for some people

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know maybe the attention of my hands maybe it's different but for me it don't hit

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not it's not the same thing it's not interpersonal relationship I think it's that can be

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_05]: kind of difficult for kind of the two of us who who are like very kind of open and

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_05]: ourself on the internet even though we have like aliases right we are still very much ourselves

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_05]: and we have now done like public events and things where there is a type of community but at the same

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_05]: time because of the work that we do we have to like kind of have to like toe that line of

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_05]: where where does community end and where does audience begin and

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_05]: um-hmm partially I I do sometimes worry that uh I I do go I do go very heavily on the this person's

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_05]: audience generally and that might not necessarily make certain people feel as as good but it's um

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_05]: it's honestly kind of a safety measure as well because absolutely we have to and I think

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I think of each human as an individual human absolutely but it's different to think of them

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: as an audience member than a community member than someone that you trust and would also depend

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_02]: on and what this is different this is someone who's purchasing a service from you and so

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: customer service you know rules there's there's a level of professionalism and that is

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: that is part of doing this as work and that means a few different things that means

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_02]: confidentiality that means like a general level of respect that means clear communication

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: about consent um and that means like appropriate pay and me being able to set the standards and

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: all of these these different things um that they're having having those interactions it's

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_02]: not that there's nothing personal in it but it's not it's not for me it's not a connection for me

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it's for you it's a service that I offer to you as the consumer and that is the point

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is to cater to you so while I do bring a lot of myself to it and especially to this podcast

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: there is inherent performance as well especially on social media especially when you're dressing up

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_02]: especially when you're doing collaborations that you know with people that you've never even met

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: before right like hey like nice to meet you let's pretend like we're like obsessed with each

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: other now um and so that's and maybe maybe you are I don't know like feel free to collaborate

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: with people you're obsessed with I'm not sent that's power to you um yeah I mean I think most

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_05]: a lot of collaboration that might have obsession in it might be a little one-sided but that's

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's a different that's a different topic uh I I think that there yeah absolutely

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I think collaboration is part of doing ethical collaborations as part of being in ethical

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships if you are doing collaborations you also need to be discussing with your partner

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: the boundaries around what those look like okay are are they comfortable with you working with

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_02]: another performer who needs aftercare um are they comfortable with you sharing a hotel room

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_02]: with another collaborator is that something that you are trying to do is that so all of these things

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: that happen after the camera turns off too um it's it's really important to discuss all of that I think

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and that can be where a lot of the question marks lie I think for a partner because they don't see

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_05]: what happens when the camera's off yeah yeah and let's let's take a quick shift of like

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_05]: the opposite direction of like unethical behavior um with dating with at least one partner as a sex worker

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_05]: because part of that like we just talked about the difference between community and audience and

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean part of the reason why I tend to I tend to err on the side of audience is because

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_05]: there is an imbalance within a relationship if somebody somebody begins a relationship with

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_05]: an audience type person and that's not to say that maybe there there might be some people who

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_05]: do meet that way but first of all if you're if if you're paying a sex worker do not expect

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_05]: that please please please please no do you not become a stalker do not understand that a lot of

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is a performance the idea of dating one of our subscribers it um for a lot of us it sounds

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_02]: in ethic unethical for I'm not going to say it is unethical for me I don't think that there's

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: any way that I could do it would look right um there might be I'm sure I'm absolutely sure

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_02]: that there have been beautiful relationships that have have bloomed that way and more power to them

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_02]: if they found ethical ways to do that but I think it's it's difficult like we're saying because of

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the the power structure or it can be to navigate entering into um an actual you know relationship

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02]: um a relationship with someone you've collaborated with that might be another like interesting thing

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: to kind of if you if you end up developing a relationship and I can't imagine what any of

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that would be like because I I myself haven't had those experiences I've I've dated from the outside

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_02]: world but I will say that I do have subscribers who have become friends or friends who have become

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: subscribers right people that I've known for a long time who were like hey can I subscribe and

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like yeah no shame and so and maybe they're people that I still know and periodically see in

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: real life or whatever but because of the friendship and the professionalism again there's this really

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: clear line um and there's this really clear line between wild violet and their friend insert

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_05]: real name yes exactly yeah and yeah those things can they can blur I do think um at least for

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_05]: me like if even if like a friend becomes a subscriber which I'm comfortable with uh and I do know that

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_05]: people have uh that but that to me kind of at my mind would take them off the table for

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_05]: anything more than a friend um at least I'm at a later time that that's mostly just me but I

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean at the foundation of it I think that something would have to come like there would

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_05]: have to be a mutual like equal ground to build off of um that is not where the foundation isn't that

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_05]: the the client creator relationship and I think that it would have to start

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_05]: or the foundation would have to be off something else because like now part of it

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_05]: upside I was just gonna say part of it is the the fact that people people that are seeing us on

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_05]: OnlyFans are seeing a are seeing something that we put up there but they're feeling in the blanks

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_05]: they're seeing a very small part and then they're feeling in the blanks that's not to say

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_05]: that that's bad it just that's not necessarily me per se that that is there's also a difference between

[00:44:50] [SPEAKER_02]: admiration and true care love affection whatever you know it's it's you can't

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_02]: really truly be loved until you're known and you can only know so much about someone from

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: their online presence so if you you know meet someone that way and you get to know who they really are

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_02]: you know that's there's wonderful if that's able to you know develop for you but you

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you also can't assume that the flirtatious relationship that you have with this sex worker

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_02]: actually means anything outside of their sex worker so you have to you can't you can't come at us with

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_02]: expectations each of us is is different and most of at least the sex workers that I know

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_02]: or have worked with would would not date a sub now going from sub to collaborator that I

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: encourage and endorse I have I have been so lucky and so fortunate because when I first

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_02]: you know got on twitter this time around as wild violet I was not doing any kind of sex work I just

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_02]: was married to a man and thought I might be a lesbian and didn't have any queer friends and

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_02]: wanted to peruse this universe and it was later it was later actually that I ended up entering

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: into the creation side of things and so I had had people that I had actually followed before

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_02]: they were doing sex work or people sex workers that I followed really early on and maybe like

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: subscribed to when I was like figuring stuff out and was like oh my god you know and then I've

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: been fortunate enough to collaborate with two of them sometimes that works out that works out

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_05]: yes it's still a profession at the end of the day it is a profession

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_05]: there absolutely is yeah um but yeah on the topic of unethical relationship niss within sex work

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_05]: relationship niss I like it relationship niss I mean we talked about the fact that communication is

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_05]: key um part part of me worries like to collect in my thoughts while I'm saying this I think

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_05]: that a lot of us are just trained so much to just assume that uh partners are on the same page

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_05]: as us um and so it's very it's actually very easy to at least especially within early within a

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_05]: relationship or early within starting um sex works type stuff to make an assumption that isn't

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_05]: necessarily held like in a new relationship where you've already talked about it where like

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_05]: a sex worker might assume that collaborations are are still fine and that might not necessarily be

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_05]: true with with their partner um there have there there's been times whenever I've had an idea of

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_05]: starting something new that like I didn't necessarily bring up with my partner and talk

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_05]: through it first and that wasn't right uh like I started doing sexting before I told my partner

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_05]: about it and it wasn't intentionally like it wasn't intentionally something I did wrong

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_05]: but it was wrong uh because that is that is something else that I hadn't talked

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_05]: hadn't talked to her about we did talk about it and work through it and there there was some

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_05]: there were some feelings about different things and we worked through it and and

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_05]: you know she's she's fine with it now but like that's not when when you start something new you

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_05]: don't just assume um that was bad on me and that was that was earlier on in in doing this so I've

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_05]: I've learned I did a bad and and I'm trying to to be better on it uh yeah it's just one of

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_05]: those things like each step should be talked about and I sex work kind of being in relationship with

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_05]: a sex worker vice versa does require a level of communication that isn't necessarily expected

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_05]: with other relationships not that it not that other relationships couldn't use that level

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_05]: of communication but at least societally speaking it is set up to not necessarily need

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the same level of communication yeah yeah I completely I yeah I understand I agree I think

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships in general should have so much more communication built in and I think that um a lot

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: of a lot of people in non-traditional relationships have probably more experience with that than many

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: of us who have done things in mainstream ways or grow really mainstream traditions and especially

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_02]: religious traditions I think all primed to to to communicate more effectively um

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I it does make me think though I like one thing I've noticed is queer relationships uh that

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_05]: or just really any relationships that are outside of the normative do require an extra level of

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_05]: communication and like I'm kind of curious if like that there's a lot of queer people that do sex

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_05]: work like even uh like even people who do uh heterosexual sex work still a lot of them aren't

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_05]: just straight there's a lot of bi people but like who is honestly I feel like we're on a

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: spectrum here and you know the other piece of this too I think um I think more people

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: than not have some form of neurodivergence um I I know that I do and then that plays into

[00:51:32] [SPEAKER_02]: communication and um you know the things that maybe we don't think to tell our partners the

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: assumptions that we might make about what it means when they say x y and z but you know I

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: have had a partner before who grew up in a small town on the west coast but then maybe spent a lot

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: of their life in a big city in california and then I've had a partner who like grew up you know in

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: downtown areas of a large city in Arizona right and so we're talking about really different

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_02]: experiences and ways of communicating and sometimes you know I'll be with you know a newer

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_02]: partner or a more recent partner they'll say something and I'll think I won't even think to

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: question it I it translates the process since in my brain this is what I think it means and

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm running with that explanation um and sometimes that leads to miscommunication

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and a lot of times like me trying to express what I'm thinking or feeling there can be a lot

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of miscommunication because for me when I say I have a feeling I don't mean this is a final feeling

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: or you did something wrong by causing this feeling or I think that this feeling is correct

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just saying I had this feeling yeah but there's there's so much to learn about

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_02]: even just like the nuance of communicating with any any partner and so taking into taking

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: that into consideration and just asking a lot of questions at the beginning I think

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_02]: is real helpful make sure you like interspersed that with you know not just like what's your

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: core communication style and how do you handle conflict you know ask them like fun questions

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_02]: too about like you know things that bring them joy and their favorite smells and whatever

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely yeah anyway I encourage lots of question asking and take notes

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I do define terms also that oh I like it say more because like anytime just because you assume

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_05]: that what you're communicating is being communicated if you don't have the same

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_05]: like working vocabulary then you're not you're not actually communicating well

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_05]: for for instance my my partner my partner didn't know what the term co-lab

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_05]: co-lab meant within sex work and so we had a conversation once about it that was not

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_05]: in the direction that it needed to go because we didn't have we didn't have the same

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_05]: we didn't have the same understanding of terms

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_05]: that can happen in any relationship in any with whatever you're talking about especially

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_05]: if you start talking about like what you're into in bed and stuff like that for sure and things might

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_02]: come up more than once your partner might be revisiting something they might have agreed

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_02]: to something but they might still have some questions and thoughts about it whatever

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and here's we were talking about clarifying terms and then this this other thing came

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: into my head that I just so brilliant my my girlfriend gave gave me this one that when your

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_02]: partner comes to you and is telling you about something let's say it's a struggle that they're

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_02]: having with your work or a question that that they have about it she'll she'll say

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_02]: this applies to all types of communication because even when i'm like having a hard day

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and complaining about something and she'll say um reassurance or resolution

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_02]: so that your partner can clarify what they're looking for do like when they're coming to you

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_02]: and they're like okay so i have a weird feeling about how this thing with your work is going

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it can be really helpful to clarify are you looking for reassurance on the topic

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: you know we've already discussed this but are you looking for reassurance or are you

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_02]: looking for resolution are you looking for a change are you looking for a conversation

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_02]: about needs to be different and so i think um i think that that's that can also be a really

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_02]: important place to start knowing where where your which direction you're approaching the

[00:55:49] [SPEAKER_05]: conversation from yeah and that i i really like that framing of reassurance or res

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_05]: resolution um and it makes me think of the the fact that like we were so constantly told that

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_05]: men try to fix problems and women want uh want to listen to problems or just want you to hear

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_05]: the problems don't want you to fix them which isn't necessarily true that's a very

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: that is my own personal belief that a lot of that is based probably more around your family

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_02]: structure and your childhood trauma and the way that you learned to deal with your parents and

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_02]: like a million other things it's not just like gender specific right um some of us are like

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_02]: hyper sensitive to and trying to meet other people's needs all the time we're always

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_02]: trying to resolve everything you know and and who that can happen with both genders well yeah

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_05]: genders and excuse me yeah all genders um but then at the same time like even if that is true

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_05]: you'd have to like then prove that it's not just like we socialize we socialize perceived

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_05]: boys to not share their feelings which we do as a society so saying that that that is how

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_05]: it's supposed to be like reinforces really negative behavior in raising children it's

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_05]: it's not a good thing don't like teach teach all children that it is okay to share their

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_05]: feelings teach all children that it is okay to actually help come up with solutions and teach

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_05]: children that every person has different times where they need help with a solution and they

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_02]: need just need absolutely to have somebody to vent to feelings demand to be felt so you can teach

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_02]: your children to internalize their feelings in a way that is damaging to them that causes damage

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_02]: to their core self you can teach you can allow your children to just externalize their emotions

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_02]: in any old fashion maybe that's damaging to themselves you can also do that around your

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_02]: kids or we can look at their gigantic emotions in these tiny containers and we can try to imagine

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_02]: what it must be like to have a nervous system on hyalur and no tools for dealing with it

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_02]: and then we can try to give them the tools in order to navigate absolutely so you're getting

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_05]: relationship advice parenting advice and getting everything um yeah we're coming to the end of

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_05]: of our our time so like just in summary communication is important like actual communication

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah in summary don't take this as advice honestly take it as the beginning of a conversation

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: um if there's one thing that you walk away with all ethical relationships are based on

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_02]: honesty and consent um you can have any form of trust or respect or knowledge of the other

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_02]: without those things so honesty consent and you know communication um but at the end of the

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_02]: day what that looks like what kind of structure you end up with out of that process is

[00:59:29] [SPEAKER_02]: it's unique and completely unique to each relationship not just to each person not

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_02]: not there it's not as though I have been the exact same partner in every single one of my

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: relationships because so it's it's unique to the same person couple yeah or the same person

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_05]: throughout the entirety of a relationship like right I haven't been the same partner for

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_02]: that's yeah yeah I used that thing earlier actually that while we like while we're on

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that that I thought was really interesting because you mentioned that like one of your

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_02]: conversations it's not a closed conversation and I think that there are things that we

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_02]: definitely need to say like this is a hard boundary for me and I don't want to talk about

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: this unless I maybe bring it up someday but like keep it to yourself but most discussions

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I think aren't are I don't I don't think there are many discussions that are fully closed in a healthy

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_02]: functioning relationship um it may be really important who brings it up who opens it if

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the if someone else closed if your partner closed the door you don't get to open it

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: um but but if you close the door and then you kind of maybe want to peek through it again

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: um that's that's the other beauty of partnership if you have you know healthy communication

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: then you can kind of peek through that door together which is much healthier than the

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: alternative of you know once again either stuffing your feelings and damaging yourself

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: or externalizing your feelings in a way that's damaging or sneaky or you know whatever

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah absolutely that it it is because people change yeah people change they do um

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah I've been with my partner since before I transitioned so people change

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely sometimes they just come home with all new genitals even

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_05]: it's not sometimes that one is a little more planned I will say but yeah I did I did once

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_05]: leave my house with one set of genitals and when I came back I had different genitals

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: there's like two remarkable miraculous the kind of change that humans are capable of

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and we do over our lifetimes part of loving someone is is being willing to navigate that with them and

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_02]: even if that means navigating a part yeah and that's

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_05]: before we and I do want to touch on that also just because we do have a concept of the fact that a

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_05]: relationship coming to an end is seen as a failed relationship and I think that that's

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_05]: a broken that is that's a broken understanding um a relationship does not

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_05]: a relationship does not have to be eternal a relationship can just be what it is

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_05]: and it coming to an end can be the best thing for the people in that that relationship

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: and that doesn't mean it failed you know no relationship is forever you either entered into

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: it at some point later in your life um or or it's gonna end before the end of your life

[01:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: the only person that you're gonna spend the entire your entire life with um will be yourself

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and and when it comes down to it um even relationships uh that are really long lasting the

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the ones that are the longest lasting I think aren't and the healthiest the healthy long lasting

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_02]: ones the the the ones with the shared and there's a lot of yeah there's a lot of good ones

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah exactly are the ones where it wasn't being together forever that was the couple's

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: main priority it was the shared joy and there I think that each different relationship can serve

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: a purpose in our lives and we can learn a lot about ourselves from dating I've learned so much

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_02]: about myself like I said each relationship has looked different I didn't know I had this

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of capacity and and I've learned something from each one and when uh for instance my most

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: recent one ended um the most recent like real relationship that I had a a breakup which was

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_02]: got over a year ago now um I remember you know I had always known that that wasn't going to be

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_02]: a forever relationship so the breakup didn't feel like a failure I just remember thinking

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_02]: like oh that relationship was really meant for this time in my life because this was a really

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: dark time but this was you know these were all the things that that we were doing and

[01:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: all of the things that I remember about that time period even though all this really hard

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff was going on and so I've been like that's what that was for it was never meant to last

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: forever and so I've been able to like let it go and just be grateful for what it was and

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you know I think with my current partner I um I will say to her I love you indefinitely

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_02]: since I since I got a divorce I try really hard not to say to anyone I will love you forever

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: because people do change and because I don't know what that means what forever means or what it

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_02]: looks like and because I don't see that as being the main goal of the relationship like

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: what if something happens what if they are abusive what if we do fall out of love what if I

[01:05:13] [SPEAKER_02]: actually don't have any control over that right so I don't want to make promises I can't keep again

[01:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: with the honesty and the consent here's what you're getting instead when I know that I want to be with

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: someone long term when I can like imagine a forever when I like have no plans of like ending it in

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: the near future and I'm like I'm dreaming about the future it's a I'll say things like I love

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_05]: you indefinitely that I can promise yeah it seems very honest yeah anyways that's that's all the time

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_05]: that we have for for today's episode so if you're in relationship in relationships aren't for everybody

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_05]: just communicate a lot about things especially if somebody's a sex worker or some other like

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_05]: profession that requires communication because culturally we don't necessarily know how to deal

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_05]: with relationships around that profession absolutely oh and one one last little note here

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that I wanted to throw in at the end we do have our nsfwe mail address we're gonna have that down

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: in the show notes whoa please feel free to send us topic suggestions um questions ideas conversation

[01:06:40] [SPEAKER_02]: starters your stories um whether or not you want us to to share any of your stories on the pod you

[01:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: can include that information uh and you know we have we have some topics lined up we have some

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_02]: some great ideas uh we're just brimming with things that we're excited to talk about but

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_05]: we also want to hear from you because you know you're listening yeah we definitely want to get more

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_05]: more audience interaction with all of this um absolutely and we want to know so far you know

[01:07:12] [SPEAKER_02]: we've been able to dive into a lot of the topics that interest us or or that feel relevant um

[01:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and we're going to continue to do lots of that but we also we don't just want this to be in our

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: hobbies podcast um we also want it to be a a a start a community a community slash conversation

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_05]: starter podcast yes anyways thank you everyone for tuning in and listening and we look forward to

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_05]: our next episode I was gonna say we look forward to seeing you next time but we actually don't see

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_05]: you whenever these come out because we record them beforehand yeah I look forward to you putting

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: us in your ear holes next time that one with much love keep it filthy okay bye

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: thanks for listening to this podcast from the Dauntless Media Collective if you enjoy

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: what you're hearing we think you'll also enjoy some of our other shows which you can find by

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: visiting Dauntless.fm here's a sample from one of them all right okay welcome to the Thereafter podcast

[01:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change we're here to break down the

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_04]: binaries deconstruct the dualities and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray

[01:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in church we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: unfulfilling hedonism but we've discovered quite the opposite there's actually a vibrant community

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[01:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: come along as we explore the all too often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism evolving

[01:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: faith in the life thereafter

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