Shame Ethics Lead to Harm

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello Heathens! I'm Wyld Violet and I'm Transvangelical.

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is Not Safe for Worship. Here we talk about the ethics of sex work and sexuality in

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: general through the lens of post-religious trauma. These are deeply personal topics for us and we

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: strive to delve in with humor and respect but we do discuss very sensitive and potentially

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_00]: triggering subjects on a regular basis. Please practice self-care and compassion.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Take breaks or even stop listening if you need to. We care deeply about you and your well-being.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Welcome everyone to this week's episode of Not Safe for Worship, the podcast where

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_02]: we say the things that you weren't allowed to say when you were younger.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I probably would have got your your mouth washed out with soap or something because that's not abusive

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: behavior. I am Alicia or Transvangelical and I have a co-host.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Wyld Violet. I'm so glad you're here. I absolutely did have my mouth washed out with

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: soap by the way. If it was a bar of soap, I had to actually chew and swallow. If I was brushing my

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: teeth with it, it was dish soap. Let me tell you right now, you look at all the colors of dish soap

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: as a child that are so fun and interesting and you think to yourself, the blue one has to taste

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: better than the yellow one. The blue one has to be better. No, it's not. The blue one is

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_00]: terrible. The yellow is better. If your parents are prone to making you brush your teeth with dish

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: soap, always try and sway them towards the yellow. I don't know much about the rest of the flavors,

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to be honest. You can touch it out if you want. But also if you're in a position where your

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_02]: parents might wash your mouth out with soap and listen to this podcast,

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that you might be too young or you might need to move out of your parents' house.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Wyld and I, it's time. Yes, it's time for multiple reasons.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00]: If you ever decide that you want to brush your teeth with dish soap, you just really

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: need that squeaky clean. Like the penguins from the commercial. You think maybe you got

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: some grease up in there? You're going to want the yellow, not the blue.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Which makes sense because yellow tends to be lemon and I think they generally use lemon extract,

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: whereas the blue doesn't have any fruit extract in it. I don't think.

[00:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Just like blue dye number. I don't know. The number's 12.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. Sure. I mean, I saw a yellow dye like 162. So it's like, there's apparently a lot.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of yellows. I don't know if I can perceive that many yellows.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think. Yeah, probably not. Or my taste buds, honestly.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You can't tell the difference between different yellow dyes.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Really cool. I'm not that advanced yet. I'll get back to you.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Perfect. Well, anyways, in this week's episode we are going to be talking about

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_02]: a topic that I think a lot of people kind of know this, but there is actually research

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_02]: to back it up, which is the fact that if you are given a shame sexual ethic,

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you have an increased likelihood of being a victim of sexual assault and you actually have

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_02]: a higher chance of sexually assaulting others. It's technically not a...

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It could still technically fall into correlation isn't causation, but it's like

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_02]: that the indications are pretty solid. Absolutely. I think whether

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: we can say that that is something that statistically is happening to most people

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: or not, we can say that this is a phenomenon that we have witnessed where being given an

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_00]: ethic of shame has actually led people to do more shameful things. We know that this at least

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: happens sometimes and so we want to just kind of discuss that problem, why it's a problem,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_00]: why the sexual shame ethic actually does the opposite of what it's intended to do.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_00]: The idea is don't look at that because it's shameful, but what it actually does

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: is primes us to look at it in a shame-filled way and to not know how to process it.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Those people end up... Those people, also me. I was one of those people that was raised that way.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: You can end up being attracted to all kinds of things and you can find yourself in a world

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that you don't know how to navigate. Anyway, yeah. Yeah. If you need a case in point of this, just

[00:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Google Josh Duggar if you don't know who that is because he is a prime example of this.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe to the extreme because I would maybe venture to say his issue is being the first

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: born in that messed up type of family where he is perceived to be the second authority after his

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: father probably set him up with a different even power dynamic. On top of that, he had a shame

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_02]: view of sexuality and did a lot of really messed up stuff to include eventually being arrested for

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_02]: child pornography. Which is not a good term. I need to not use that term because there's no

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_02]: such thing as child pornography. There is child sexual abuse material. Yep, that's

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: yes. Absolutely correct. That's an important distinction I think. The analogy that comes

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to my mind immediately when we're talking about things like this is like it's kind of like,

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I think of prohibition. It's not like when they outlawed alcohol, alcohol went away.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_00]: People had to find more dangerous sneaky ways to get it and they might have gotten in trouble for it

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and it wasn't regulated but it didn't just disappear. It just became an underground thing.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: The same is true of so many different things that we try to outlaw and regulate and when we say

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what it's a similar thing that happens a lot of times to people who are told

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: know all of that, that entire world is off limits. Then they come to it thirsty and the only option

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_00]: that they have is underground and hidden and sneaky. By giving someone shame about something,

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_00]: you're not preventing them doing it, you are just changing their mindset as they approach it.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone who walks into their sexuality full of shame, that can go a lot of different ways

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_00]: but you are setting them up for things like potentially predatory behaviors or victimhood

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_02]: because they don't know what's appropriate. Exactly and what's interesting is the research

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: backs this up to include an article that I found published by Liberty University.

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Granted, their conclusions, something has to be really true for Liberty to

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_02]: admit that religious shame around sexuality has a negative effect on people.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That's huge. Liberty is one of the most conservative Liberty University students

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_00]: that live in the dorms. I don't know if they still do this but when I was in college,

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: this is how it went. If you decide that you're going away for the weekend,

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: you have to leave the address and the phone number of the person that you're staying with

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: so your RA can call and check up on you and make sure you're not with someone you're

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_00]: not supposed to be with. You have to find contracts that you won't dance during the summer.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Liberty is very conservative so if they're... Let's listen to this. Now I'm intrigued.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Basically, they admitted in a paper and then they go on to kind of double down on their

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Christian views but they admitted in this paper that sexual, religious, sexual shame

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: does stunt one's own development of their sexual self. Which is so significant because

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean especially when we're teenagers and we are supposed to... This is when our body is going

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_02]: through those changes that kind of develops our sexual self. We aren't given the tools for

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_02]: our brain development to actually match our physical hormonal development.

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Our foundation on our sexual self is being hindered by a religious shame culture.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Think about the correlations in a young brain. Think about the emotional toll that that takes.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You're going through those that your body's starting to wake up, you're starting to feel

[00:10:30] [SPEAKER_00]: these things. People are saying don't listen to that. That's bad, that's gross, that's wrong.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't touch yourself. Don't touch your own body. That's dirty, that's gross.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_00]: You of course are a human being and I'm sure this isn't like an overarching experience but for

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of us we're still going to end up touching ourselves and thinking about these things.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: We can't help it. We're thinking about that's what our body is designed to do and we're

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: exploring it but that means that now every time we do that we have a voice in our head telling us

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that this is dirty, that our pleasure is wrong, that all of this is gross. But we also know that

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_00]: we can't prevent it and we can't stop it so we keep doing it and we keep feeling guilt about

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_00]: it but we've just accepted that guilt and shame is part of the process of pleasure.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Once you have accepted that guilt and shame just goes along with pleasure

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: if you're looking at something and you feel guilt and shame and it's because it's really

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: problematic, you don't know the difference. Yeah, you've already trained your brain that

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that is how it's done. That's how it's supposed to feel. Yeah, and so like for me whenever

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I was an agent I discovered touching myself nobody had actually ever told me about it.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: The first time that I actually masturbated I had no idea what happened and like I ejaculated

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and I had no idea that a penis could ejaculate. Yeah, that's how sheltered I was but at the

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_02]: same time I know I'm not the only person that went through that because I'm sure that's a common

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_00]: experience. There's so much on the other side of it there's so much that we don't know about

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_00]: our bodies. I talked to so many people, so many girls in like high school or college or whatever

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_00]: within the Christian church that it was like well have you ever masturbated? Have you ever had an

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: orgasm and they're like well I don't know if I've ever had an orgasm and I'm like you would know

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: right or we'd be one time I was on a mission trip and we're trying to go swimming

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and so this girl's on her period she really needs to use a tampa and this has happened

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: multiple times with people in high school. I'm standing outside the door trying to

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: put a poacher using her tampon for the first time and I said well are you putting it into

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: the right hole? And she's like what do you mean the right hole? I'm not putting it in my butt

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_00]: there's only one and I was like oh no and we're talking like sophomores in high school like we

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: are not given these ones and so we don't even know how to interact with our bodies and so

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you know we get the things that we that we don't know like it's wild.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It yeah it is it is so wild and honestly because because I like reached a place where

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_02]: my I didn't understand what masturbation was and because of things that were like told to me

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: because everything was told in such a cryptic way but I thought my inability to

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_02]: stop masturbating which I was just going through a teenage boy puberty or male puberty because

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't know I was trans and even if I was I would probably have been still forced to go through

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_02]: a male puberty but I convinced myself that I must be gay and I'm going to hell

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and that I needed that I had to stop because I am I'm touching a penis right? If you're

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_02]: uh if you are excited to touch a penis whether it's yours or not clearly you have to be gay right?

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes okay this is so I actually oh my god you just gave me this flashback I took a class in

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: college that was on Romans and there's a passage in there that talks about like the way that

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: their lust turned and they became like overcome with desire for the people who look like them or

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever right? And so we got into this conversation where my professor was talking about how like the

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_00]: problem with homosexuality is that it's actually about self-worship and the fact that you're

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_00]: like lusting after and attracted to what looks like you self-obsession kind of and

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that's and so yeah like and and so then I can see that that thought process that underlying

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_00]: like thread when you're like oh well if I touch my penis I must be gay because I like to penis

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like your own body is being other than real in such a way that you can't it's it's

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: what what? Yeah and so I mean these are like small things that I'm kind of remembering

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_02]: like right now in the moment right because thinking about this wasn't premeditated before

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_02]: this podcast uh but that just so much adds adds to the shame because you don't understand

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_02]: um like what you're feeling you don't understand that your body is actually okay it's okay for you

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: to enjoy your body like you have a meat suit for your entire life you might as well get something

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_02]: out of it right? So like there is no way to actually sort through this other than the only tool that

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we that we were given which was shame the only way that we had to work through our feelings

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_00]: was feeling bad about it. Yeah and trying to decide like am I just kind of an uncontrollable

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: sinner and I'm gonna do this thing because it feels good and ask for forgiveness or

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: am I going to resist the urge to experience pleasure? Yeah and also like I went to yeah

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what you were set up with I went to high school when Passion of the Christ came out so

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean I'm sure that they puts a time frame for my age right there

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_02]: and so like on top of that we have like super I saw that movie in theaters

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah I did too five times I think I think I only watched it twice yeah um but yeah on top of

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we like fetishized the violence against Jesus as this is your sin Jesus went through this for you

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: and because you masturbated I mean that's not what they said but like that was my biggest sin right

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_02]: or I was being told that was my biggest sin and that I couldn't get over it and that

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: like Jesus went through all of this and it doesn't matter uh because you can't stop doing this

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and that's it's such a messed up way to have your your existence as a teenager like weaponized against you

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and and it's not fair or biblically accurate my this you know brings to mind something for me

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_00]: my life changed in college when I understood when I learned for the first time the translation

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: of it is finished in the gospel of john I I always thought reading that that that it was just kind

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of this like it's finished I'm done now I'm tired I'm gonna die and then he hangs his head and dies right

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: um but when I understood the language behind it that to tell us die and the fact that that

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_00]: word actually means paid in full that it means you know when someone was released from prison

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they would stamp this on their paperwork when someone paid their taxes in full they would stamp

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_00]: this on their paperwork to signify it like something has been fully accomplished nothing can be added to

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_00]: or taken from it and so the picture that the bible gives us of the cross and of jesus being put on

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_00]: the cross and of the torture that he endured is this picture of the temple curtain tearing into

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and the whole point is that that's done now and yet as christians we are obsessing with

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_00]: what we did that put him up there the whole point of the gospel is is the is the gift is the fact that

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: he is the the curtain torn he got off the cross and he came back like that's and now you get second

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_00]: life and so it's really interesting the way that we are wielding jesus' suffering against people

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: especially youth to get an emotional response out of them look at what you're doing to jesus

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_00]: when what jesus himself said was it's already done let's move on

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah i was gonna i was going to pull up an old video um but i can't find it the the place that

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: the place that had it up took it down which was when he said it is finished i believe that he meant

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: it oh no not that is that the one that would be because that's where i got it i mean that

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah that's if i go down that rabble hole on like christian theology we're gonna be there for a while

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because yeah it is finished like literally means like there isn't something like nothing more can be

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: done nothing can be added to it it's paid in full finished done finito it's over you can't revisit

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: it the end yeah so it's and then we developed christian theology that is is very like as much as

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: people say um we're we're saved by faith which i didn't grow up i didn't grow up in a denomination

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: that said that um which bring it into the layer uh they still require certain things and uh not

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: masturbating is by faith but you demonstrate your faith through works thanks james the thing is

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_02]: jane like james wasn't even talking about that type of stuff james is like yeah you have faith take

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: care of the poor exactly but the way that we take care of the yeah like the book of james is all about

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_02]: like the rich or evil that that's the summer the summary of it the book of james is beautiful and

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_00]: it's also correct like intent does not override impact but for some reason the christians got

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_00]: in here and they were like oh demonstrate your faith through works and i don't know how that

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_00]: got turned into like don't masturbate because what it actually meant was like care for your neighbor but

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: i yeah the things that we can run with the mental gymnastics i can't exactly i don't even know how

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: i was able to do those kinds of mental gymnastics for all those years it must have been because

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_00]: i was so young and like spry because these days it's just exhausting

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: uh i'm gonna i'm gonna attempt to find this video one last time but i'm gonna talk while i'm looking

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: for it because it is the most i don't know like do you know did we talk about triple x church

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: who's either on this podcast or maybe on go home bible did we jog my memory um it's

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_02]: it's kind of like covenant eyes uh where they started as like an accountability software and

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: they have some other like accountability software listen to the things that christians say i'm so sorry

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_02]: literally it literally sends an email of all the links that you went to that might be questionable

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_02]: and you have to click on them to see it like

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: i don't know why that just really hit me today like that's fine that is a whole new level of christian

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: knees that i was not ready for

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah it's okay so covenant eyes and then

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_02]: no in triple x church or something yeah yeah um in triple x church had a free version so like

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_02]: that was that was my go to because i didn't you know

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_00]: not ability should be free and easily accessible

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah yep and then they then they created triple x church pro um so here's here's a weird thing the

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_02]: person who started the person who started triple x church now runs runs the website christian

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: cannabis and sells sells marijuana

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_00]: x church what's their like app icon i have to know uh

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_02]: i i don't remember i i think i think it's i think it's three x like the number three and then x

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: pro i'm a pro member i can't

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_00]: have it masturbated in three weeks oh my god so okay do you like log

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_00]: is there like it's still a thing please tell me you can oh my god she's showing it to me on

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: the screen and i am dying empowering sexual integrity through mental well-being what okay so please

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_00]: tell me that this inscription comes with like a journal where you just enter like i touched

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_02]: myself again today i mean there's join a small group which i'm assuming is virtual

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_00]: find my small group i shouldn't be laughing because this is actually terrible and like

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_02]: awful and oh hey they they they've expanded um they've expanded because it used to only be

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: for men but now now you can select a group for women oh so what the fuck there okay whoa hold

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: ships there are there are women out there who struggle with like porn addiction and masturbate

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: because all right i thought it was only the men that ever touched themselves i like honest i this

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: wild information between women or sexual beings it's so weird right very new news true story time

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: when i extra extra somebody calls the friend when i was in seminary right i had a friend female

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: who actually like they understood that some they understood that some men would struggle

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: with pornography and they had like a you can come forward and talk to an advisor and get help through

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_02]: the school to help with your addiction right um which is weird in and of itself but i had a friend

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_00]: i had a talk to this adult about your pornography addiction that's not

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_02]: i mean we were we were adults it was seminary so okay okay okay in the in my 20s

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_02]: um the person was in his 50s who was there for the seminary which is yeah anyways female friend

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: went and brought forward the fact that she enjoyed pornography and they had no idea what to do

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_00]: no response was did they make her wear a scarlet letter a

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: no they didn't but literally they just said i am not aware of any women who have this struggle

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_02]: and i don't know what to do and they didn't provide her with help

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: i died this is

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: so gb came so she became a porn star and she is me is that where this is going

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_02]: i mean she ended up like during the summer break i think she met somebody and got married

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and didn't come back but it's like still but i would come back it's fair like that

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_02]: it was a good decision you probably didn't need to come back to the seminary but

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: it's it's still like i don't know there's there i i mean it was uh over over a decade ago so like

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: it's been a while but like at that time they had no concept of the fact that women might enjoy

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: pornography right it's just men no that's a totally new phenomenon i had no idea that

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_00]: women like to watch stuff men are visual beings women just like we have feelings and we get turned

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: on if you help us in the kitchen that was what i understood was supposed to happen to me yeah

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: actually let's let's take a moment and talk about that because that goes into our entire

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: shame topic uh because as you've admitted you do enjoy you do enjoy a nice set of boobies

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_00]: oh oh man i love exactly i love a nice set of boobies i love a mean set of boobies i love

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: all the boobies all the boobies uh however you were also shamed into if like if you my chair

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_02]: squeaking you're also shamed into like if you enjoyed something visual then that's not feminine

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that's masculine and you can't do that that's true it's true and also just i think for me it was just

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of like i was a weirdo like it was it was just like really weird the idea that like a woman would

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: would want to do that and i think i think by the time i started wanting to look at titties

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: like i had a concept that there were more of us out there that wanted to watch porn

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00]: but i also still assumed that i would want to watch like a lot of straight porn and so when

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: i found myself just constantly googling like titty drops like all i wanted to do is see some titties

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: fall out of a shirt i was like what the fuck is wrong with me i was so confused so baffled

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: i was like maybe i'm just maybe i'm just jealous because her boobs are so nice

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah maybe but also but also titty drops are they're so nice oh my god they're so nice and

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: i it's so funny because then eventually you know i started i i got onto the internet and

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_00]: i found these forms where it's like am i a lesbian and i don't know about it and one of the things on

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: there on one of these lists that i found i think it was god it must have been a reddit form or

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: something but it was like you know if you're questioning it this might be a sign one of them

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: was like have you always just spent in an ordinate amount of time like staring at women's

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: bodies like not being able to look away and just telling yourself oh i'm jealous and i was like uh

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_00]: oops i was like oh that wasn't jealousy i get it like so yeah but so what's funny about that is

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_02]: is like the sometimes the trans experience is like the exact opposite of that being trans

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_02]: i i do enjoy women's bodies but at the same time i also very much would want the feminine body

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_02]: as well so like there was a kind of jealousy aspect to it but because i was conditioned to think that

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_02]: anything like that was just you know some type of sexual i don't know sometimes sexual inclination

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that uh i must just be you know kind of perverted and just hypersexual and that's all it is and so

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_00]: like yeah and you're just really attracted to women you're not just exactly yeah so i'm just

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_00]: jealous i'm not attracted to women like i love it we don't love it the inverse the inverse experience

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: right there it's wild yeah another thing on that list was like if you like look at queer people

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and you're like oh my god they're so cool i wish i could be one of them they were like you

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: you might be and i was like oh shit does that mean i'm in the club i was so excited

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_02]: when you get excited at the idea that you might be queer you're probably probably i was so

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: excited i was like wait am i in do i can i get like is there a membership card will people

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: recognize me as one of the queers like yeah it was a very exciting time of my life

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: is there a queer saint peter at the gates of queerness heaven that has to let me in is

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_00]: right there with our queer sex worker friend paul alongside david and jonathan who are still madly

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_00]: in love and won't stop making out on top of the pearly gates someone stop them this is getting

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: obscene oh my

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_02]: anyways back to back to the sexual shame oh my goodness oh yeah the video i wanted to

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: the video i wanted to show you i can't find it anywhere if people are listening and you've

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_02]: seen this video like i know we've seen it uh it was like back in college but can't be the only

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_02]: person who like remembers this video it's like this nice like um it like soft like gentle music and it's

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_02]: like every time that you touch yourself or every time that you masturbate god kills the kitten

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_00]: those fluids are actually the tears of angels

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: um like it was this entire thing every time you masturbate god kills a kitten so did you legit

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_00]: think like every time you came that a kitten somewhere died no i mean i knew that it was

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_02]: a joke but at the same time it's so funny it was like the shame was to a point where they

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_02]: they like made a joke about the fact that you felt ashamed of it and like you're kind of supposed

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_02]: to feel ashamed about it yeah oh my goodness how did we make it out of this like i don't know

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: some reasonable sense i don't even know how did we get so cool god damn

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: well like who made you and i'm like i did it's a work really hard at this yeah i did um

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah no it feels like one of those situations you know like you masturbate and cry and then

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: i'm like oh i got the way that i'm like it's i almost feel

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: badly for like laughing about some of this stuff and then i remember that like i'm laughing at my

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: own trauma and i'm like oh oh yeah it's that's definitely what's going on like we should

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: we should not find this funny we should find this kind of horrific that you know

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: teenagers are being taught that god is killing kittens if they masturbate oh it's absolutely

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: horrifying the part of it that's funny is that adults are like adults who think that they're

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_00]: reasonable are are making kids think that essentially if they masturbate god's gonna

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_00]: kill a kitten or yeah that's what's what i'm like where had that who raised you like i would like

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_02]: at the same time though like the implications are actually worse than god killing a kitten because

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: what they're actually teaching you besides that is masturbating can send you to hell so

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: when we really think about it it's god killing a kitten is actually nicer than than what we were

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: actually taught which was hell it was hell so i guess yeah it's if just you're gonna be really

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_00]: crispy but i i don't did you also get the side of the theology at all that i eventually got into

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_00]: this um as i got a little bit older then suddenly there was a concept of like the god of grace and

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: it was like okay well you can say or sorry later and he'll forgive you though like you don't have to

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_00]: go to hell for it it's wrong and you have to feel guilty about it but like you don't necessarily

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_00]: have to burn for it like you can apologize later um did you ever get that god's not gonna

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: send you to hell for sinning theology where it's like kind of but like you you have to

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: you know ask for forgiveness and repent and you have to mean it and that was the thing like

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: i was always told you have to mean it when you ask for forgiveness of your sins but the

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: but you're also like told that like continuous action means you don't actually mean it and

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and so the fact that i still i would still end up masturbating was like indication that i

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't actually mean that i was sorry and that i then i wasn't actually forgiven and oh interesting

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah because i kind of got the like that temptation that you have is like is is like an affliction

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's like the devil is trying to tempt you and like this thing that's happening to you and so

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: it was convenient for me because i did have a really heavy conscience and in the moment

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: if i was like meh i'll feel guilty about this later i really would feel guilty about it later

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: so i could genuinely and i was like the devil made me do it you know i mean i probably would

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_02]: have come out just a little bit better if maybe i was given that but i don't know the and maybe

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_00]: i was extra hard on myself but i i know i i think you came out great first of all i think that needs

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: to be said but i know what you mean okay continue uh yeah the thing that really resonated with me

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: was like the continuous act meant that you weren't repenting so yeah it was yeah i mean it's true

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that the best apology is changed behavior um but like maybe the problem is that we're not designed

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: to repent of our own pleasure yeah like masturbating in and of itself is not harmful

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: in fact it's kind it's kind of a good thing uh i think especially for people with vaginas it's

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: it's definitely a good thing because having had both um there was a little more work with a vagina

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: than with a penis so yeah um there there is a there is a little bit of a different learning curve going on

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_02]: with that um guys guys figured out so quickly people with penises figured out really quickly yeah

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah i i do i do think it's it's important if it's something that you're compelled to do

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you know if if if you're like oh i really don't want to it doesn't feel good to me like i'm

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_00]: going to tell you that you have to yeah don't do it don't do it for me i i do think that masturbation

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: is an important thing for us to to allow that kind of exploration because it it is not first of all

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: like it's none of our business like it's weird for me to be so worried about whether or not a

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_00]: teenager is masturbating like that's gross and weird and like why am i thinking about whether

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_00]: or not they're touching themselves like that's it's their body and like they they probably are

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_00]: because like do you ever touch yours like any part of yourself or you ever like oh my elbow

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_00]: feels interesting today like what it's your body you know and so i think that um i think it

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_00]: this when the thing that is keeping us from touching ourselves is is is shame based or rules

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_00]: based or whatever when we're when we're resisting it versus like if you don't want to don't do

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_00]: that's you up to we talked about like being othered from our own bodies it really does set you up to

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_00]: other yourself because there's a whole experience i think of accepting like this is who i am and

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: this is my body and and i'm gonna figure out how it works and what works for me and there's this

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: level of self love and a lot of times like when people are masturbating even you know you

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you masturbate for different reasons then you might have sex with a partner right like it might be

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_00]: stress relief it might be it might be a million things it's a form of self care a lot of times

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a way of saying like oh i had this feeling that i wanted this thing and i'm gonna give it to

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_00]: myself and that is that's i think an important it's important to have that kind of connection

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: with yourself where you can hear oh i'm hungry so i'm gonna feed myself oh i want this thing

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so i'm gonna give myself the good thing and the only time we should be questioning that is

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: when it's causing harm to someone else when it comes to masturbation like you're the only one who can

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: consent or not and like i think that we need to allow people's relationships with themselves

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and with their own bodies to really develop organically because when we stunt that we

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: stunt the potential for every other relationship that they're ever going to have because it

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_02]: all starts with our relationship with ourselves and kind of on top kind of on top of that is

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the fact that this shame this shame type of ethic around sexuality actually increases a lot of

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: people's chances of being the victim of sexual abuse and sexual assault and in research has

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: shown that there is research showing that people given shame sexual ethics are more prone

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to sexual abuse oh yeah part of that part of that is the fact that you are told to be shamed

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: of your body of the way you use your body and that your body is meant to to it's meant to

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_02]: be given to somebody else and that is so easily exploited there are so many layers to that

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: too because when something abusive happens to you if your thought is oh my god i tempted

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: him with my body or whatever your first response to that is guilt whenever

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_00]: someone comes in and is touching you in certain ways you haven't because you're not

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: allowed to talk about your body or like what's appropriate you might not realize what's

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_00]: appropriate as quickly and because everything about your body is cloaked in shame if someone says

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_00]: don't tell anyone and you feel that this was simple or that you should feel guilty then you also feel

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_00]: that you have sinned this happened to your body so you have sinned and now you can't tell anyone

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: because there's also that level of shame and so there's so many like the you tempted him and

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you should feel ashamed of that you also sinned by you know because you were touched in this

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_00]: way and so you should be ashamed of that this is a secret and we keep secrets about our bodies

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: that's what we do here like it all becomes very natural this really secretive culture around sex

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_00]: and that is the perfect breeding ground for predators a culture where we are really really

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_00]: secretive about sex and we don't teach our children like what is appropriate touch what

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: isn't what this feeling in your body means and if you feel this feeling it's probably

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_00]: your instincts telling you that something's off or you should tell me about x y and z you know

[00:43:54] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah it's a breeding ground for predators and I think that's one of the reasons that we do see

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of predatory behavior within these circles predators know that they they understand that

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: there's a group trust here and also a level of hush hush where they can they can get away with

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: more get away with different things than they could in a world where children are

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: are not conditioned in such a way yeah and and on top of that uh and like I'd mentioned before

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_02]: shame sexual ethics also leads to people being more prone to being a sexual predator

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_02]: because like like we said at the beginning of this episode the shame feeling becomes part of

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the sexual pleasure feeling those two end up being connected in our brain we're wiring our brain to

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: to enjoy sexuality with shame and on top of that we don't have an under we don't have like a robust

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: sexual ethic that says that like understands that there's levels of of like crossing a line

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: so if your line is looking at pornography um and you cross that line that's still

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_02]: nowhere near like having child sexual abuse material like there's still a jump there but if

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: you're conditioned that no you know every every sin is the same right and you cross that line and

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: now you're into to sin like you're already looking up horn there's not necessarily anything worse

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: you know looking at adult versus a child but there is yep and so like not not having a developed

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: understanding of like every single bit of this is immoral and and and not building any sort of

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: ethic around it just means that like well it's all the same kind of immoral what does it matter how I

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00]: sin um exactly that's that's really dangerous I also think that they're you know if we understand

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_00]: trauma there there are a lot of uh there there's evidence out there that a lot of people when

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_00]: they have like a really traumatic experience in a lot of ways their brain can get kind of frozen

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_00]: and stuck in that moment or at that age emotionally whatever around that issue until they've dealt with

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: it and so I think about you know the the teenage boys that I knew who's like let's say dad walked

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: in on them searching for something on the computer for you know the first or 12th time I don't

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: even know it could be and dad just like lost his mind and made the child like this kid was

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: made him so scared and made him feel so ashamed and made him feel so and and now

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: there's this fear around it and there's this repression that they're trying to do for years

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and years and years and I see I feel like I have seen adults get really kind of stuck

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: um sexually just when they then go back to that stuff and they eventually can't repress it

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_00]: the the way that they jump in the the anger and the shame and the and the the fact that

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_00]: their brain is still like undeveloped and how to deal with it like the I see adults find

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_00]: themselves in places that I'm like you should know this should not

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but they've been repressing that urge since they were 16 so maybe they still have it like I don't

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_02]: and yeah yeah it creates a cycle of harm is really what happens and now that now that

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you're talking about it um I don't know if there's any research on it I know I didn't think to

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: like search it but I I'm wondering because I know that like micro traumas are a thing

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_02]: um so I'm really curious if like if our brain registers like looking at porn whenever you believe

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the sin and shaming yourself if that triggers like a micro trauma in that experience

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and if it does and that's going to create pathways I don't know I like to to me it makes a lot of

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: sense and I assume that it's actually correct but I don't I don't know of any research out there

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_02]: regardless like it's it creates a cycle of harmful sexual behavior that doesn't have a way

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: to to reel itself in and so it very easily gets out of control and it's one of like it's one

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_02]: of the reasons I'm rather convinced why pastors are pastors are one of the most likely people

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: to commit sexual crimes in the statistics back it up like to I I did research on it like compared

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: it with public school teachers on like people who are arrested and pastor pastors are roughly 10 times

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_02]: that of of school teachers and it's it's not yeah it's not even close but the problem is

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_02]: is like we don't necessarily keep statistics on occupation of people who are charged with

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: with sexual violence so you kind of have to go um they do keep research sometimes on on teachers

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_02]: because that is a public profession but pastor is not um so it's hard but that honestly means that

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_02]: it's under under connected with the role I was gonna say that's all that does is make it look even

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah also in in the school systems most a lot of school systems are like mandatory reporters

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of a lot of churches are not is that so yes that's fascinating because when I when I

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: worked in youth ministry for a while I was a mandated reporter um and I was depends on the

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_02]: so that's really interesting oh it's state based okay yes so like uh like Pacific Northwest uh or

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: West Coast um all of those are mandatory reporters I don't know if Idaho is I don't think Idaho is

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: but like I believe Texas isn't like there is a handful of states where clergy are not mandatory

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_02]: reporters and honestly for the longest time in the military the chaplain's did the predatory ones

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_02]: know which state those are too like yeah oh yeah uh in the military for most of the time that I was

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: in it the the chaplain was the only person that wasn't a mandatory reporter and as long as you

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't tell the chaplain that you are going to kill somebody right now uh they couldn't do anything about

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_02]: it which think about that like the military is not necessarily where you need uh people that are exempt

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_02]: from from reporting sexual assault because that is a place where there's a lot oh my god

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: that's my brain the the military the military does not recognize spousal rape

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_02]: it classifies it as domestic violence what it's not a sexual crime does it like federal law

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: recognize spousal rape so you can't um or is it state yes I believe it's federal law uh

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: uh yeah so in the military in the military you could be charged by the military if you're a

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: service member and you can be charged by uh civil authorities but um it doesn't yeah so

[00:52:11] [SPEAKER_00]: it can't be charged by the military for that or you don't be charged for domestic whatever

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: domestic violence in yeah call it what it is you cowards I want to say bad words anyway

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_00]: it do be like that though when you yeah when you hand down an ethic of shame

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_00]: it's then all of your sexuality is wrapped up in shame then what is it matt I mean it's just

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and and it doesn't mean that everyone who comes from that culture ends up going in the direction of

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: being predatory obviously for some of us the direction we go is just really curious and

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_00]: really confused and and maybe really stunted and maybe there's a lot of stuff that we have to

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: work through we need therapy around and maybe we don't even realize that we're a lesbian until

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_00]: we're like 30 and then you have to like tear down our entire lives but I don't know anything

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_00]: about that that's never happened to me wink wink um so you know obviously we're not saying that um

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00]: this ethic uh this way of looking at things just breeds nothing but predators but it's definitely

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: there are so many reasons why if we're looking at you know the way that we think and and talk

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_00]: about sex that this this this shame filled lens contributes to more damage and more harm

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's no matter how you slice it it's psychologically harmful for all people but

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: especially for young people to tell them that everything about their relationship with their

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_00]: body is dirty and gross and sinful and so I think that we can we can take that understanding

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_00]: into the way that we interact with kind of the entire world and with the way

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that we present consent and that we present bodies so you know um mostly we talk about you

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: know within this world breaking down walls of shame and Alicia and I are already doing a ton

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_00]: of that those of you who subscribe to our only fans know all the things but also like out there

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: in that really practical world for those of you who are listening I think about

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: talking to our children about things like hey this sort you if you feel weird when somebody touches

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: you you can always tell them to stop and please tell mom or tell dad tell someone if if someone

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: if if if you don't want to hug someone you don't have to if you want to hug someone else

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you need to ask first if you like no one except for mommy or daddy should ever ask

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_00]: you to take your clothes off and that should only be at bath time and no one should ever

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_00]: like all of these things but no adult should ever tell you to keep a secret like telling

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_00]: them that they can talk about these things with you you should talk to me about it if

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_00]: something happens to your body that feels weird to you you should tell me about it you should

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and just beginning there and then not making them feel weird if they're like if they have

[00:55:18] [SPEAKER_00]: a question you just say that's what a body does like we don't have to I think there are

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_00]: anyways that we can just kind of make bodies bodies and like yeah bring it up if you if you are a parent

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: or a guardian of a younger person um and that's your responsibility to help them

[00:55:40] [SPEAKER_02]: understand their own bodies um yeah so you know parents is really getting here but I'm trying

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to be a little more expansive if if there are like other um bring it up yourself don't

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_02]: wait for a child to bring something up because if you aren't bringing it up that they're gonna

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_02]: feel like it's an off-limit topic and that that's just another aspect of shame if our children

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't able to come to us and say hey this is what's going on or this happens to me because

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they feel like it's an off-limits topic then they then that that's just such a big gap that

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I know because it I know that what people think that they're doing is protecting their children

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_00]: from from engaging in things like too young that they're not ready for from knowing things

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_00]: that there's this like protective stance of like I want to keep my kid from knowing anything

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_00]: but it's actually it's it's the it does set them up for harm and and it's not it's not

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_00]: protective it's not if we kids are gonna learn this stuff somewhere people are gonna learn this

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_00]: stuff somewhere they're going to develop a relationship with their body somewhere and so

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: to just try these people that the people who live this way the idea is that we're trying not to expose

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_00]: them to sexual thought and not to expose them to adult things but what you're actually doing is

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_00]: over sexualizing them you're setting them up as tiny adults you're assuming that everything

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_00]: about their relationship with their body at this age is sexual you're never even giving them

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_00]: a lens from a young age to say like oh yeah that naturally happens to you know your body sometime

[00:57:47] [SPEAKER_00]: in the morning it's fine it'll go away if you stop thinking about it and like oh honey if you're

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_00]: gonna touch yourself like that like you need to do that in private you need to go in your

[00:57:56] [SPEAKER_00]: bedroom okay that's not for anyone else to see oh babe we do not like take off our clothes in

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_00]: front of guests like you need to go put on a show you know whatever like it's yeah you

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_00]: know we we have to you're not you're over sexualizing them when you assume that everything is about

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: sexuality it's also the very first seeds of that before anything sexual ever happens before they

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_00]: ever feel a tingle is just their relationship with their body you know how it feels to climate

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: tree how it feels to whatever like we have to we have to stop over sexualizing children

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's what we're doing with this culture of shame actually yeah i mean i i've said it before any

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_02]: like any pastor who gets up and says anything about like girls shouldn't wear skirts too short or

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: shouldn't wear um spaghetti strap tank tops they are sexualizing children absolutely a lot of times

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I did not invite you to look at her shoulders and the fact that you are calling out the fact that like

[00:59:06] [SPEAKER_00]: hey hey young girls your shoulders are really sexy and you should cover them up that is so

[00:59:15] [SPEAKER_02]: wildly inappropriate and uncomfortable so inappropriate also you're teaching others that if if somebody

[00:59:23] [SPEAKER_02]: is wearing a spaghetti strap that you should sexualize them because you were taught by a person of

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_02]: authority that shoulders are sexual and so as a red-blooded male with urges or whatever i don't know

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you should be seen those as sexual there's nothing sexual about shoulders but we do sexualize

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the understanding is that if you wear that then you're tempting them and so it doesn't sound weird

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to you when a grown man says to a 15 year old your shoulders are too sexy you need to cover them up

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: but that's fucking weird for an adult to look at a 15 year old and think your shoulders are really

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_02]: sexy they should be covered that's where your your skirt should go down to your knees oh my god yeah

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: because anything above your knees gives way too much access to your vagina and absolutely like

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_00]: teach your children about like you know which parts of themselves are just for them that's part of the

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_00]: conversation right but like a skirt that has to be down to your knees because like somebody saw

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: two inches above your knee and thought that that was too sexy and suddenly couldn't control

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: himself like my body is just something that makes people lose control of themselves

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's not even weird even if a grown man is saying it like that's okay no like it's very

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_00]: predatory culture in general that that whole yeah yeah buddy well i think this episode has

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: has had some highs and some well i don't want to say lows because i think that it was still

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_02]: good conversation but like some more some lighthearted things and some deeper conversations

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: they still need to happen some stuff to think about yeah i love it we're just like starting

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_00]: the conversations we obviously can't have the whole conversations about all of these things here

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_00]: but i love opening them up and i just now i'm gonna be reflecting as well more to learn always

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah if you ever felt like you know this shame stuff was like seemed really bad yeah you're

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_02]: right um the research backs it up yep it's it like people are taking notice that having a shame

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: based sexual ethic leads to harm a lot of harm it's one thing to correct someone and say hey

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: this is wrong but if someone is trying to make you feel shame trying to like manipulate

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: you into feeling shame about something it's always a good idea to stop and ask the question of like

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_02]: who that shame is benefiting yeah absolutely anyways that is our time for for this episode

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that's all folks it was a good one it's been great thanks for listening y'all so great

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: to share this with you we appreciate you tuning in and we'll see you next week on Nazi for worship