[00:00:00] This is Adontless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dotless.ethm for more content.
[00:00:18] And welcome back to Leaving The Village. I am your host Jessica Goforth and I am Alexis Grey.
[00:00:27] Today I am doing this with Alexis. I'm so excited. I'm excited too.
[00:00:32] Yeah, this is really fun. We introduced you to Alexis back when we brought them on board on our team and we were so excited.
[00:00:40] And they've been working in the background helping us with all sorts of social media and all of that.
[00:00:48] And that's been amazing. But today we had to jump on because today is Josh Dugger's sentencing.
[00:00:58] It's a big day.
[00:00:59] It's a big day. So we wanted to react right away. And Kathleen is really struggling with all of this and it's been really difficult for her.
[00:01:08] So as like Kathleen, do you just want to react in a live? And she's like yeah I just want to jump on and I want to do a live.
[00:01:16] And then I want to be done. I was like works that works for us. You do that.
[00:01:23] And Lex and I will jump on and we will record an episode for our podcast.
[00:01:29] It is a very emotional day for a lot of people. It really is understandable.
[00:01:35] There's a lot here. And yeah, so we'll just kind of get into reacting.
[00:01:41] First off, Lex has been taking notes all day. I still had to work all day.
[00:01:45] So I was trying to keep up with what was happening while at the same time staying on top of work stuff.
[00:01:51] So what do you have Lex? Like first of all, how did the day begin? Because this started first of the day.
[00:01:59] It did start at the first of the day and they spent most of the morning with a defense coming in
[00:02:09] and going by point through the charges. They did successfully get a charge dismissed.
[00:02:17] But the way...
[00:02:19] And who always there? Let's see, let's go through the list.
[00:02:23] Yeah. Jim Bob, of course was there.
[00:02:26] And Anna. And Anna was there. She got there very early.
[00:02:33] And dressed like an amish person. Like navy blue dress, all the way up to her chin.
[00:02:43] And like all the way down to her wrists. And like I was like you look like a nun.
[00:02:52] And it was really weird. And a mask, which is another thing I thought was odd because I highly doubt they believe in masks.
[00:03:00] It was probably more so people can use photo cards.
[00:03:03] No. So she was masked. Jim Bob was masked. Amy Dugger was outside talking to the media nonstop.
[00:03:13] Reading statements. But I also think she was allowed in the courtroom too.
[00:03:18] I did not see whether she was in the courtroom or not.
[00:03:22] I do know... Is it Jason Dugger?
[00:03:26] I get all the Jays mixed up.
[00:03:28] Joy Ann was there.
[00:03:30] I didn't list all the siblings. I think her brother Jason I think is his name.
[00:03:36] Okay, was there as well.
[00:03:39] I know that Anna arrived very early so she could spend a little time with Josh before everything started.
[00:03:47] And when he entered the courtroom she gave him the sign language sign for I love you as he passed by waiting for everything to happen.
[00:03:58] So she is definitely still standing completely behind him in spite of all this.
[00:04:05] Yeah, that was really hard for me.
[00:04:07] I know Kathleen whenever at Kathleen and I talk about the Duggers.
[00:04:12] Kathleen's really really careful to be like very compassionate with Anna.
[00:04:19] But you and I Lex we have a harder time.
[00:04:23] I very much do.
[00:04:27] You know, I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.
[00:04:34] And I was three.
[00:04:37] A babysitter has been used me to produce childhood sexual abuse material.
[00:04:44] And then I later on was also one of Bill Gothard's victims.
[00:04:51] And this is and I'm also a mom.
[00:04:54] So it's very personal for me as a victim and survivor.
[00:05:00] And also as a mom.
[00:05:03] Yeah, I know what it's like to survive what Duggers victims have survived.
[00:05:10] One of them even didn't survive. She died.
[00:05:14] I know yeah, I don't know the gender she or he they didn't survive.
[00:05:20] This is what he did is horrific.
[00:05:24] There's no words for it.
[00:05:27] The fact that he is part of the system that consumes this material.
[00:05:35] The creates demand for it.
[00:05:37] The creates demand for it is horrific because they wouldn't do it if there wasn't a demand for it.
[00:05:45] Exactly.
[00:05:48] And I think I want to pause for a second because
[00:05:55] I am so sorry that that happened to you.
[00:05:58] But also like,
[00:06:00] I want to remind people that I've known Lex since we were little, little, little girls.
[00:06:06] Like five or two.
[00:06:09] Yeah, we were, we were little kids to get hanging out together.
[00:06:13] And I remember, I remembered this today and it hit me like a brick wall that
[00:06:19] you were in my mind so good.
[00:06:22] You were this good child and I wanted to be like that.
[00:06:26] And I remember thinking how are they able to be so good all the time?
[00:06:32] You know, like, and now I know that so much of that was severe dissociation.
[00:06:39] Like there's no severe, like there's no way to survive to be a five year old child interacting in the world.
[00:06:48] Without severe, like, like disassociation and heavy duty coping mechanisms in place.
[00:06:57] And some of those coping mechanisms are highly sophisticated.
[00:07:02] We start that young very much so so sophisticated.
[00:07:07] And so what I thought was a friend who could do,
[00:07:11] could be what, like the perfect child, like you knew how to be good.
[00:07:16] In a way that I couldn't ever figure out.
[00:07:19] But I just was out of avoid trouble.
[00:07:22] When you were, when you're traumatized to that extent,
[00:07:26] you have to be safe.
[00:07:28] Like that's the only thing that your brain is screaming at you.
[00:07:31] Right.
[00:07:32] And so this, this compliance, this ability to follow direction, whatever it is like,
[00:07:40] I thought was you being good, was you being highly traumatized child.
[00:07:47] And it just breaks my heart to remember that child that I was so close friends with
[00:07:55] that we had so much fun with and I envy it.
[00:08:00] It's terrible, but...
[00:08:03] I wouldn't wish it on anybody.
[00:08:06] And to know that Josh has perpetuated the system, it's horrific.
[00:08:16] It is.
[00:08:17] And it is.
[00:08:18] It is.
[00:08:19] It is a sort of just stronger sentence.
[00:08:20] It did.
[00:08:21] And then to know that Anna is still defending this.
[00:08:23] Anna and then Michelle too saying, well he's kind of widows.
[00:08:29] Kind of.
[00:08:30] Right.
[00:08:33] Like it doesn't just don't get me started.
[00:08:36] It doesn't bring a child back to life that doesn't...
[00:08:39] No.
[00:08:40] That doesn't undo the damage that has been done to all these children.
[00:08:45] Not to mention his work with lobbying organizations that actively fight against children having protection
[00:08:55] and rights and the poor having what they actually need.
[00:09:02] And this is like being head of the Family Research Councilor.
[00:09:07] It's just their lobbyist group against all these things that help people who are poor,
[00:09:15] who are widowed, who are orphaned.
[00:09:19] Like don't tell me you care about widows.
[00:09:23] And they help queer kids.
[00:09:26] They lobby...
[00:09:27] They're one of the reasons the United States is one of only three countries that hasn't signed the UN rights of the child
[00:09:33] is because of the Family Research Council.
[00:09:36] So, you children don't have rights in America because...
[00:09:40] Because of Josh Dugger and the system that he participates in.
[00:09:45] So yeah, Michelle can keep her...
[00:09:49] He cares about widows thing.
[00:09:52] Right.
[00:09:53] Exactly.
[00:09:54] She can just take that.
[00:09:55] Put it where the sun goes on.
[00:10:03] So the day started out with them trying to kind of negotiate what was even on the table to be sentenced.
[00:10:11] Exactly.
[00:10:12] Throwing out certain things, including others.
[00:10:16] That was kind of how the day began, right?
[00:10:19] And so I think most people know that there's mandatory sentencing.
[00:10:25] But a lot of people don't know...
[00:10:28] And I learned this today myself that there's a point system when we sentence people.
[00:10:33] Yeah, explain that because you started to explain it to me earlier and I was like...
[00:10:38] I don't understand this.
[00:10:39] There are points and I don't fully understand how they came up with the appoints.
[00:10:43] He ended up with 39 points.
[00:10:46] And there are points for things that he was convicted of.
[00:10:52] And then, extenuating circumstances can add in more points.
[00:10:59] So all together he ended up with a total of 39 points.
[00:11:05] And for each point range you get a certain amount of months for your sentencing.
[00:11:13] And with the 39 points is how they came about that 151 months.
[00:11:20] Which is roughly 12 years.
[00:11:23] 12 and a half years.
[00:11:25] Yes.
[00:11:26] Did the defense get a possession charge removed today?
[00:11:37] And so that did play into it.
[00:11:41] They took into account the fact that he has no previous criminal record.
[00:11:46] So that was also part of the sentencing.
[00:11:50] During the sentencing, the judge looked at Josh and said,
[00:11:54] you have done a lot of good things and that's why...
[00:11:59] And that it's only fair for the court to recognize that.
[00:12:02] He also went on to say, but you show no remorse.
[00:12:07] And so I'm really glad that the judge did recognize that there is no remorse.
[00:12:13] That he walked into court looking like he owned the place and he was very confident of what was going to happen.
[00:12:23] So I'm really glad the judge pointed that out.
[00:12:28] Yeah, yeah.
[00:12:31] So that 151 months he does have to serve 85% of that which we were talking earlier does equal about 10 years.
[00:12:41] Yes.
[00:12:42] And how old is his youngest child?
[00:12:45] His youngest child is just being born right?
[00:12:48] Yeah, I think they were just born about nine months ago or so.
[00:12:52] And then it was pregnant when all this started.
[00:12:56] So the baby can't be more than five to nine months.
[00:13:02] Exactly.
[00:13:04] So yeah, so I was concerned about conjugal visits.
[00:13:08] I was like is he's just going to keep making babies?
[00:13:11] From prison?
[00:13:13] I was very concerned about this and I asked a friend of mine who's an attorney and she said conjugal visits aren't even allowed until you've served 95% of your or 85% of your your sentence.
[00:13:27] So so you don't get conjugal visits until 10 years in.
[00:13:31] That's a long time.
[00:13:33] And in his case, it would be 10 years.
[00:13:36] And then you can have a time apart which you and I know that.
[00:13:40] That's what I think.
[00:13:41] Time apart gives you a lot of...
[00:13:43] If you can only sit between with glass between you and have the kids wave 10 years is a really long time.
[00:13:52] And I really hope that it's long enough for her to leave the community, the bubble that she's in to reach outside of it
[00:14:02] and find out that what she's experiencing isn't all that unique.
[00:14:06] The abuse that she's experienced is significant and real and lots of people have been through it too.
[00:14:15] And they can walk with her and will walk with her through leaving.
[00:14:20] And maybe she will realize that she really wants a father for her children an active father that's not going to be like supervised for...
[00:14:28] Because so this is the other part of it.
[00:14:30] We haven't got to yet is that his probation is 20 years after he's completed his sentence.
[00:14:38] So even if he gets out early...
[00:14:41] And it's 20 years of supervised probation which everybody keeps on highlighting that supervised probation.
[00:14:48] Supervised probation is a big deal and that's different.
[00:14:52] That's different than just being let out and we hope you behave good.
[00:14:57] Talk some about that.
[00:14:59] Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:01] Again, that wasn't you.
[00:15:04] I've learned a few little things today.
[00:15:08] So he has supervised probation and as part of that he cannot be alone with any children.
[00:15:17] No, mine is his own including his own children including his own super vision.
[00:15:25] Which I think is court supervision not just Anna.
[00:15:29] But that's the way I understand it.
[00:15:32] That's what I understand it to be... I want someone to clarify that.
[00:15:35] I would like for us but that's how I'm understanding it.
[00:15:38] It's still early days right now.
[00:15:40] Exactly.
[00:15:41] So that means his children cannot be alone with them.
[00:15:44] We're talking even the youngest child we're looking at at least 30 years old.
[00:15:49] Yeah.
[00:15:51] And here's the thing is, I don't know these kids aren't going to be protected.
[00:15:55] Yes they are.
[00:15:56] And anybody anyone could allow their child to wander too close to him and catch him
[00:16:06] and then that's it.
[00:16:08] You go back to jail.
[00:16:09] You break probation and that's a big deal.
[00:16:12] That's huge.
[00:16:14] It's huge and it's a hair trigger.
[00:16:18] Like there's very loose, you know you just break those guidelines or whatever for it for probation
[00:16:25] and you're out.
[00:16:26] Exactly.
[00:16:27] So you're back to jail.
[00:16:30] Or prison.
[00:16:31] Back to jail.
[00:16:32] Exactly.
[00:16:33] And not only can he not be around minors, he is not allowed...
[00:16:39] He can't be around to own a computer or even access a computer.
[00:16:47] And without express permission from his probation officer.
[00:16:52] Right.
[00:16:53] So he has to get permission, like if he needs to apply for a job and he needs to go online,
[00:16:59] he's going to have to go to his probation officer and ask for permission to do so
[00:17:03] and how they handle that whether he supervises or he does that, you know, they'll figure that out.
[00:17:09] I'm not exactly sure.
[00:17:11] But that means he can't even walk into an Apple store and play on a tablet.
[00:17:16] No.
[00:17:17] Exactly, without violating parole.
[00:17:20] Exactly.
[00:17:22] And that means that he's automatically back in jail.
[00:17:25] So that also puts on the system that's going to protect these other...
[00:17:29] Like we were talking about earlier, the system that creates the demand for child sexual abuse materials
[00:17:35] he can no longer participate in that system, at least for 20 years after he's out of jail.
[00:17:42] And you know, as we all know, can he...
[00:17:50] Can he keep himself from offending again?
[00:17:54] It's always the question after people are out of jail.
[00:17:58] Right.
[00:17:59] And it's the specific place that he they're wanting to send him, talk about some of that, some...
[00:18:06] Yes.
[00:18:07] ...and what that's...
[00:18:09] They're wanting to rehabilitate him if I understood correctly.
[00:18:13] There are two federal prisons that they're looking at right now but the judge is really pushing for one in particular
[00:18:19] if I remember correctly it's one in Arkansas, which is ironic but...
[00:18:26] Yeah.
[00:18:27] Because they have a very strong sex offender program there that helps reduce recidivism, which is repeat offending.
[00:18:35] So he's not just going to be sitting in jail doing nothing in much of a day.
[00:18:41] Totally, exactly.
[00:18:43] He is going to be pretty...
[00:18:45] ...and he's going to be a lot of friends of friends.
[00:18:48] Which he probably is never seeing growing up in ADI.
[00:18:51] Probably not!
[00:18:52] Yeah!
[00:18:54] So but he is going to be...
[00:18:56] They're hoping to get him in a program that treats sex offenders and helps reduce reoffending.
[00:19:05] So that is also...
[00:19:07] It's a...
[00:19:09] A newer...
[00:19:11] I just realized that they're doing...
[00:19:14] I just realized that it's going to make Anna feel like he's...
[00:19:18] There's hope.
[00:19:20] He's going to come out...
[00:19:22] Okay.
[00:19:23] Yes, statistics on those...
[00:19:25] See that's one of the things that's always gotten me about this case.
[00:19:28] Statistically those programs have very small success rates for which are over a certain age.
[00:19:35] To reduce recidivism, your best chances are catching these cases
[00:19:42] when the offender is young.
[00:19:45] And there might have been hope for Josh if this had been properly dealt with back when he was a teenager.
[00:19:53] But the Sunday sent him to Bill Gothard, which, you know, sending an abuser to another abuser...
[00:19:59] Always a great idea.
[00:20:01] Yeah, right.
[00:20:02] You see where that got us?
[00:20:03] Right, exactly.
[00:20:04] We see where that got us.
[00:20:07] So, you know, whether those programs are successful or not, you know...
[00:20:15] They can be but the statistics aren't great on them.
[00:20:20] But I do think...
[00:20:22] I think there's a lot of sentiment out there of people that are really, really angry and upset
[00:20:27] that 12.5 years sounds ridiculously low.
[00:20:32] It does.
[00:20:33] And I agree.
[00:20:34] I get that 100%.
[00:20:36] People say that this is when FBI investigators say this is some of the worst they've ever seen
[00:20:44] and you only get 12.5 years.
[00:20:48] And you don't have a whole lot of impact on...
[00:20:51] Yeah, you don't have a whole lot of context for that.
[00:20:55] Like, a lot of people think porn is 50 shades of gray.
[00:21:00] Like, they really don't understand that this type of material is not that.
[00:21:06] Because there can't be consent.
[00:21:08] No, and there's not even...
[00:21:10] But adult porn can be consensual.
[00:21:15] Yeah, but at the same time, this is so far beyond that.
[00:21:20] It's not an edgy accidently tip over.
[00:21:24] You know what I'm saying?
[00:21:26] This is something that I think is really important and why I don't like that the news media constantly uses the term child porn.
[00:21:35] Because it's not.
[00:21:37] You don't just stumble on a child porn website.
[00:21:40] No, you...
[00:21:42] The type of material is just straight up torture of children.
[00:21:46] Extreme torture of children.
[00:21:48] It's not like putting in the wrong web address and you just stumble on this.
[00:21:54] You don't have to go looking for it.
[00:21:56] And it's extremely expensive to access.
[00:22:00] So you have to have a special search engine, you have to have a special computer.
[00:22:04] And he did.
[00:22:06] He had special hidden ways.
[00:22:08] Which is why you can't buy the story that the Caleb guy that works in the office accessed his computer and used this at night.
[00:22:17] Like, no.
[00:22:19] Like, that's not what happened.
[00:22:22] He wasn't even there.
[00:22:24] He has alibis for these time frames.
[00:22:26] And the other thing is that Josh went to extensive links, sophisticated measures to gain access and that's by design.
[00:22:38] Like this kind of material you cannot get unless you do these steps, these things that they require.
[00:22:46] And he did it with that covenant eyes on the computer.
[00:22:52] So he did it in a way to avoid detection even from a piece of software that was actively looking for this type of...
[00:23:02] Great.
[00:23:04] So, he...
[00:23:06] Yeah.
[00:23:08] So this takes a lot of good meditation, a lot of effort, a lot of time, a lot of research, a lot of learning.
[00:23:14] You have to learn a whole new way that computers work, a whole new way that the internet works.
[00:23:20] I don't even understand the dark web.
[00:23:22] I don't either.
[00:23:24] But the dark web is where this stuff is.
[00:23:26] This is not on your regular search engine.
[00:23:28] You don't type this in and get this.
[00:23:31] Exactly.
[00:23:32] It's not a thing.
[00:23:34] You can't get it from your...
[00:23:35] You can't hand your kid an iPhone and they stumble across this.
[00:23:38] That's not a thing that happens.
[00:23:40] So the idea that Josh somehow got this way, also by accident just having internet access, is not a thing.
[00:23:50] It's not how it works.
[00:23:54] So he started out offending on actual minors.
[00:24:00] And this is not something he even argues.
[00:24:03] He doesn't argue that he didn't molest his baby sisters.
[00:24:09] He doesn't argue that.
[00:24:12] He doesn't.
[00:24:13] And then he went on to find this material on the web.
[00:24:17] So someone pointed out that in a way, the 12 and a half years might be better than if it had been 20 though.
[00:24:25] Because I might reduce the amount of appeals.
[00:24:29] That we see.
[00:24:32] And as we're doing the amount that we're still looking at 30 years of protection for his children here,
[00:24:41] with the number being a little less time in prison that we might see a little less pushback and time spent in the appeals process.
[00:24:52] That makes sense.
[00:24:53] So that Josh being really careful to look at those points and really follow the letter of the law there.
[00:25:01] And instead of just making an emotional decision here that this is more likely to stand up,
[00:25:10] as we've got these appeals processes.
[00:25:13] And that is a very good thing because we've seen it in other cases before where you get into that appeals process and they strip away years and years and years.
[00:25:25] And that we definitely don't want to see.
[00:25:28] So with this 12.5, I'm really hoping that it stands up through that appeals process.
[00:25:35] And that we do see this full 30 years of protection for all minors including his own children.
[00:25:41] Because 30 years is a long time.
[00:25:43] It is a long time and I think it's worth celebrating a little bit.
[00:25:49] And that's how UNI are feeling tonight is kind of like, okay.
[00:25:55] Still kind of on the edge of my seat to see what happens as the appeals process goes through because it's unpredictable.
[00:26:03] The judge already struck down some major attempts to appeal in the past couple days.
[00:26:10] The convictions yes but the sendencing can still be appealed so I see.
[00:26:15] At least that's how I understand it.
[00:26:17] I'm no lawyer.
[00:26:19] Okay, but I could be wrong but I think that's how I understand it.
[00:26:26] So in like you said he's struck down a lot of the conviction appeals so hopefully you know I feel like he's being very careful to make sure everything is sealed.
[00:26:39] Yeah and that's so important.
[00:26:42] It's more important to be careful and to be accurate with what will stand up rather than being emotional like you are saying.
[00:26:53] So I mean, I'm speaking legally now as survivors you know where everybody is going to feel what they feel.
[00:27:01] Oh yeah and we want to honor and hold space for what everyone feels.
[00:27:07] Exactly.
[00:27:08] Because I know that Kathleen is really struggling tonight and she's going to do a live and talk about how she feels and probably has already by the time you hear this.
[00:27:18] And her feelings are valid as well, you know 100%.
[00:27:24] My feelings you know are just I want Anna free so that she can guide her children out.
[00:27:33] And that is the thing that I struggle with the most.
[00:27:37] It's just wanting that for her and for the kids is for her to find a new life outside of this compound that she lives on.
[00:27:45] I feel a lot of anger towards her because I know as a mom you know I wouldn't literally do anything to protect my kids.
[00:27:59] And you know she has been offered help from her family.
[00:28:06] A lot.
[00:28:07] From her family, from close friends, from close people who are right there.
[00:28:15] They're right there.
[00:28:17] It's not like she has to leave her entire world.
[00:28:20] She just has because half of her world is already left.
[00:28:24] Exactly.
[00:28:25] That's the thing.
[00:28:26] Half of the people in her life that she's known as childhood have already left this cult.
[00:28:32] Right.
[00:28:33] And you and I know that when you leave the cult, you lose people.
[00:28:39] But these people who are offering her help have already left.
[00:28:43] Yes.
[00:28:44] And they're offering her a way out which is, I mean something I didn't have but something you didn't have.
[00:28:49] No.
[00:28:50] We found our way out on our own so to have.
[00:28:53] And I still feel like she could call up people magazine and ask for a sit-down interview in five seconds.
[00:29:02] And they would, and they would advance her quite a bit.
[00:29:07] Oh yeah.
[00:29:08] And they would block the cover for her and they would let her tell her story.
[00:29:12] And if she asked for money, she'd have a million dollars by the end of the day without even blinking to leave, to run, to get to another.
[00:29:23] Part of the planet if she wanted.
[00:29:25] And she would have support of family.
[00:29:27] She would have support of the whole world.
[00:29:32] Really?
[00:29:33] Like you don't know I'm saying like this, the amount of support that she has is just something she hasn't tapped into.
[00:29:40] And it's just a matter of, and then I know I get, you know, the, I don't want to play the game of why doesn't she just leave.
[00:29:50] I don't, I'm not doing that.
[00:29:52] Right because yeah, it takes a lot to leave it does.
[00:29:55] We know we all know like that the reasons people stay but him being behind bars to me removes a huge obstacle.
[00:30:06] And I'm, I'm getting pretty judgmental at this point and as much as I want to not be, but I'm just like honey.
[00:30:16] You know, what point do you become an enabler?
[00:30:19] Yes.
[00:30:20] Right.
[00:30:21] Right.
[00:30:22] And I feel like she's really crossing into that.
[00:30:28] I feel like the court system has taken a lot of that out of her hands.
[00:30:32] I'm black because I'm scared if it was left in her hands where we'd be.
[00:30:37] Oh, we would, nothing would have happened.
[00:30:40] Exactly.
[00:30:41] Well, first of all, she doesn't have, because of the way we were raised, she doesn't even have the capacity to know what is even out there.
[00:30:51] She doesn't even have a capacity to know what he would be looking at and what that would mean and what it even is.
[00:30:58] However, I mean, I'm speaking, and this is why I get so judgey is because you and I, we didn't either and we're older.
[00:31:06] So we were pretty internet.
[00:31:08] Yeah, we were.
[00:31:09] But you and I figured out what was right and wrong for our kids.
[00:31:14] You know, yeah.
[00:31:16] And then with the internet, I know that was so eye opening to circle back to what you said earlier to find out that you're not alone.
[00:31:30] There, the internet has huge, huge far leaving this cult and recovering from this cult and recovering from childhood sexual abuse to learn that I know I always thought that my life was extreme.
[00:31:47] That I was the only person who grew up the way I did that I, that I was just this weird outsider of society and nobody else knew what it was like to have lived my life.
[00:31:59] And then with social media, I learned that there were so many other people like me.
[00:32:05] Yes.
[00:32:06] And we're all out there and we are already to help Anna.
[00:32:11] Oh, yeah.
[00:32:12] Oh, yeah.
[00:32:13] She reaches out the networks are already all set up.
[00:32:17] The foundation is already there and those people are reaching out to her on her social media every day.
[00:32:23] They're saying we're here.
[00:32:25] We're ready whenever you're ready to leave.
[00:32:28] This is where you can go.
[00:32:29] And I've actually sat down with an extended family member of, of their family and talked to them and they've said,
[00:32:41] there's a lot of us who are waiting.
[00:32:45] We're just right here, just outside the door and all she has to do is just tell us that she wants our help and we're here.
[00:32:56] And if anything, I just hope that message gets through to her.
[00:33:01] And if she has some time and I hope that 12 years, 10 years is enough to at least start her on that path of breaking up.
[00:33:10] And just be able to step away and realize she's young enough to start a new life.
[00:33:17] Well, and then that day-to-day of raising all those children on, you know, well, and she's going to honor own, she's with the duggers in that compound.
[00:33:29] But as the day-to-day of living with them, especially as we're not surprisingly seeing the reports of Jim Brun being verbally abusive and all that.
[00:33:44] And controlling?
[00:33:45] Shocker.
[00:33:46] Shocker.
[00:33:47] Color me shocked.
[00:33:49] Oh no!
[00:33:52] You know, she didn't grow up with the duggers and as she gets into the day-to-day reality of living in the dugger house, you know, hopefully she'll start going, no this is not what I want for my kids.
[00:34:05] Yeah, I'm hoping.
[00:34:07] Hoping cross all our fingers and toes.
[00:34:09] Like what else can we do?
[00:34:12] Except keeping one of those voices as like, there's hope on the other side.
[00:34:17] There is a life outside of ATI of IBLP of this world, this mindset.
[00:34:28] Exactly.
[00:34:29] There's a whole other world out there.
[00:34:31] Well, I think that's it.
[00:34:32] I think we covered it all.
[00:34:33] I think we did.
[00:34:34] Do you have anything else on your notes we've missed?
[00:34:37] I went through all my notes.
[00:34:39] Well, thank you all for jumping on with us and listening and hearing where we're at now with the sentencing.
[00:34:50] We wanted to cover that.
[00:34:52] We know that our social media has been blowing up all day and we know that everyone cares about this.
[00:34:59] But I did feel bad that we didn't start at the very beginning just acknowledging all the lives lost in Uvalde, Texas yesterday.
[00:35:09] Yes.
[00:35:10] I meant to say something right away and I forgot but I do want to say that as a Texas resident, I'm reeling and struggling very badly.
[00:35:21] But we all are.
[00:35:23] Anyone in the world with empathy is and just so much pain for this family's in Uvalde, Texas.
[00:35:30] And we just want to say that we planned a vote.
[00:35:36] Right?
[00:35:37] I don't want to send any thoughts and prayers.
[00:35:39] I'm going to tell you that I'm voting in November and that's what I'm going to do.
[00:35:46] But that's the only thing that we forgot to mention.
[00:35:50] I should have said that at the very beginning.
[00:35:52] Yeah, I meant to say that at the beginning as well.
[00:35:54] It's been a rough day here in Texas and in America.
[00:35:59] It's been quite a week.
[00:36:01] The Southern Bab just...
[00:36:03] Yeah.
[00:36:04] The sexual abuse report was also released this week so it's just a few days ago.
[00:36:09] I haven't even had a chance to touch that but I need to get there in my...
[00:36:15] I get to get some head space for that too because I grew up in Southern Baptist churches.
[00:36:19] We grew up in the same church.
[00:36:22] I'm kind of how that works for your childhood friends.
[00:36:27] Yeah and so I'm very disturbed by that as well.
[00:36:33] And then just the shooting in Buffalo was not that long ago as well.
[00:36:38] The worst racially motivated shooting in American history, you know modern American history that we know of.
[00:36:45] It's just absolutely staggering the level of loss that we are grappling with as a country.
[00:36:55] In the middle of a pandemic which is still still struggling our way out of this pandemic because yeah it just can't go away.
[00:37:07] So yeah it's been a rough time and we kept having people comment on our social media today just going...
[00:37:19] One more thing, Josh Dagger is being sentenced in the middle of everything else.
[00:37:27] Right in the middle of everything else let's hang on a second and clock this is one of the things that is happening.
[00:37:35] Because we can't pretend like it didn't happen.
[00:37:38] Exactly.
[00:37:39] This is a big deal to all of us survivors of ATI and this system that created him, that allowed him to...
[00:37:49] thrive and become who he is today.
[00:37:55] Anyway thank you all for coming out along and listening in today and that's it we're going to sign off.
[00:38:03] Thank you for having me here.
[00:38:05] Yes I'm so glad to do it again.
[00:38:08] Yes we'll do it again for sure.
[00:38:10] So thank you again and we'll see you next time on Leaving the Village.
[00:38:16] Bye.
[00:38:17] Bye.
[00:38:20] And that wraps up another episode of Leaving the Village.
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[00:39:08] Our show is written and produced by me Jessica Goforth and Kathleen Reynolds.
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[00:40:11] of communities of faith being weaponized because the only time religious freedom is involved
[00:40:17] is in the name of bigotry and discrimination. I'm tired of it!
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