S2 E7: Deconstructing, Decolonizing, and Dismantling Religious Beliefs with Gail

[00:00:01] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast, visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:07] You know, you're a kid and you have an imaginary friend or you believe in Santa or something,

[00:00:10] and then one day you stop.

[00:00:13] And it's like, you wish you could go back to that.

[00:00:16] You know, you try and go, or even I used to play with Barbies, and I remember when I stopped playing,

[00:00:21] because it didn't work anymore.

[00:00:22] Like, I couldn't even get into the headspace to enjoy doing the make-believe way I used to anywhere.

[00:00:26] My imagination kind of broken some ways, I guess.

[00:00:30] I feel like that's it.

[00:00:31] I feel like a lot of that just kind of broke, and then I couldn't no matter how much I would

[00:00:36] want to imagine myself in that again, it felt like talking to an imaginary friend you

[00:00:41] stopped believing in.

[00:00:44] And it didn't feel like a decision I made, it didn't feel like I was like, oh, I'm angry

[00:00:47] at you, God.

[00:00:48] No, it was like, oh, that just doesn't make sense to me anymore.

[00:00:56] Put a trigger warning at the beginning of this episode too for domestic childhood abuse, put

[00:01:01] maybe some of those warnings ahead of it.

[00:01:02] You've got it for this.

[00:01:36] Hello, deconstructionists.

[00:01:37] This is Maggie, the host of our podcast, where we'll collectively share our stories and

[00:01:41] experiences of leaving high control religion, along with what it's been like for us

[00:01:46] to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:01:49] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most

[00:01:54] of all that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:01:57] You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy, just as you are.

[00:02:05] My guest today is Gail, who uses she her pronouns.

[00:02:09] Gail is an expandalical who is passionate about processing religious drama and creating

[00:02:12] spaces to help people heal, deconstruct, and decolonize harmful beliefs.

[00:02:17] Gail wants to be as determined in dismantling as she was in her dissonance.

[00:02:22] She's a Canadian who just assumed American citizenship and is ready to move and roll

[00:02:27] up her sleeves to make a difference.

[00:02:29] Gail, we are so honored and happy to have you in the states.

[00:02:33] So welcome on my way, not there yet, but on my way, working through the, through the red

[00:02:38] tape, actually the comment about being as determined and I have to give the, the quote,

[00:02:43] that's I think I got that from Janice who you had on discussing is she use of

[00:02:48] the election stuff would a great episode, but yeah, I think she's actually should give credit

[00:02:52] to her for being as determined in my dismantling as I was in my dissonance.

[00:02:55] And I was like, oh, yeah, that is love that.

[00:02:58] Yeah, shout out to Janice.

[00:02:59] Janice's full of brilliant with one minors.

[00:03:02] I mean, and so much more, but like she just has such a way of like capturing something

[00:03:07] and putting it in like five words where every word means something so important.

[00:03:12] You know, yeah, yeah, shout out to Janice.

[00:03:14] How to give credit.

[00:03:15] We're credit is that no one will repel people's stuff and not attribute them.

[00:03:20] Well, I was just on Nate and Gail's podcast full of mutuality and we had so much

[00:03:24] fun, so I'm really excited to have Gail here and Nate will be on next week too.

[00:03:29] So another East Coaster in the podcast world.

[00:03:32] Yeah, excited.

[00:03:34] I know this is so exciting.

[00:03:35] So okay, Gail, can you give us a little background about your church experience?

[00:03:40] What was life like for you in church growing up or when did you find church?

[00:03:45] What's your history?

[00:03:47] Okay.

[00:03:47] So I guess going way back, a little Gail grew up in foster care and I spent

[00:03:52] We can put my biological parents who, well, my dad has since passed.

[00:03:56] But my mom still kicking around and I'm still in contact.

[00:04:00] Both my parents being very limited.

[00:04:02] I'd say like my parents are like, I was their parents growing up parentification.

[00:04:06] I think is what they call it, but it's why it was in foster care.

[00:04:11] And unfortunately foster care for me was like many foster kids about experience.

[00:04:16] They know they're both good and bad foster parents.

[00:04:18] I actually have had both.

[00:04:20] Like I ended up in a good foster home after 10 years.

[00:04:24] My upbringing for the first 10 was an terrible home and then I got rescued into a better home.

[00:04:29] So I know that both exist.

[00:04:30] But yeah, my brain was in a pretty lousy, terrible abuse of foster home.

[00:04:35] So my biological dad though he was Italian, Pentecostal.

[00:04:40] I think they originally have like one.

[00:04:42] They removed here from Italy to Canada.

[00:04:44] But the church kind of helped them when they were poor and did great things when they,

[00:04:49] you know, one of my aunts who I never met was two years old and she got pneumonia and died.

[00:04:53] And the church just swooped in and like helped care for.

[00:04:56] Like this stuff church should be doing.

[00:04:58] I know that's the church has at its finest.

[00:05:00] You know, like that's my only hesitation in saying like church is bad.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:05] It's like but once in a while it does step in and do something when people are struggling.

[00:05:09] Really glad and really help people.

[00:05:11] Absolutely.

[00:05:12] And then of course there's a flip side to that because then and sometimes sometimes that's an agenda.

[00:05:16] You know we got to show them how good we are so we can get you in here and then and then you're stuck in.

[00:05:22] No, right.

[00:05:23] It's a little more complicated than that.

[00:05:25] I know I'm summarizing that way too way too quickly.

[00:05:28] I know that's my biggest problem is complicated and so you know, that was my dad's community.

[00:05:32] Group of Italian Pena Costal and so I only saw my parents from Friday night to Saturday and then they asked me.

[00:05:39] My soul shorker did she said, you know, your dad wants to want to bring you to church.

[00:05:44] You know but then you'd stay on Sunday with your parents instead of going back on Saturdays to your foster home.

[00:05:48] What do you think about that?

[00:05:50] And I was just like as a little kid.

[00:05:52] I was like, I didn't know anything about church. I saw weird things on television about it and I was like, that seems weird but the idea of having an extra day with my parents was so exciting.

[00:06:01] So I was like, I always wanted to go try out church.

[00:06:07] I had no ideas a little kid.

[00:06:09] What when I was getting into and it's interesting because looking back I started attending.

[00:06:14] I was like, yes, six and it was helpful for me as a little kid.

[00:06:19] My dad didn't bring me to try. He was often working. Like even though I was home on weekends, he was often working while I was home on weekends.

[00:06:26] So my mom was looking after me. She was an atheist.

[00:06:29] My sister and I which rag my mom to church with us like we were the ones being like, no mom, this is good.

[00:06:35] You need to come to it. And I know that's an opposite of bringing from a lot of people who grew up in Christian homes as we were the ones being like,

[00:06:42] Mom, you need to believe in cheese. Like we were real evangel.

[00:06:44] When it's once we got into it, I was seven when I accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior.

[00:06:49] But it's funny because I looked back and I was like, wow, that belief system.

[00:06:54] You know, really did a lot to making me feel like there was someone above me that cared because the authority figures in my life were either not they weren't.

[00:07:04] I thought like my parents weren't able to look after me while like I was helping my mom, you know,

[00:07:08] government papers as a little kid. You know, like kind of feeling like there's no one above me that can help me like where where do I reach?

[00:07:15] And then the ones that did know more than me like my foster mother and my first foster home was just so cruel and like, I don't know,

[00:07:22] I always grew up watching those Cinderella. You know, those Disney movies with a really wicked evil characters and it fit so well,

[00:07:29] Like little princess and trying to think of those stories or it's like, oh my god,

[00:07:31] Like if you think of the worst characters, that was my foster.

[00:07:34] But like the evil step mom, but like if you have foster mom, you got to combine like with what could which from Wizard of Oz with a few other ones and you got her and like we even had a black cat,

[00:07:44] which is funny that lived in our attic that we lived in our bedroom,

[00:07:47] was in an how cliché is this?

[00:07:49] So we had my sister and I shared them, add it together with a black cat that would wander in occasionally.

[00:07:55] It was like not a social cat, I'm a cat person. This cat would just stare at us and just run away and dart off and look like it was chasing some spirit or something.

[00:08:03] It was creepy.

[00:08:05] So yeah, that was sort of there was little kill and I, you know,

[00:08:14] We're growing up in Christian homes and that you know,

[00:08:18] The Sunday school teachers were often my peers parents, you know, they were the moms that were teaching class and

[00:08:23] Most of my peers were bored in Sunday school, like falling off their chair, you know,

[00:08:27] Looking like they were falling asleep and I was riveted.

[00:08:30] Like, you know, the story of Joseph was when that hooked me in really young, like the idea that like,

[00:08:36] You know, he was abandoned and things just kept getting worse for him,

[00:08:40] But then in the end, God had this grand plan to work everything out for.

[00:08:44] And I hold on, I held onto those stories so hard as a little kid in a horrible home, like,

[00:08:49] And this idea that God was seeing me and seeing all the trials I was going through and had a plan for all of that

[00:08:55] And was caring for me and loved me.

[00:08:57] That someone out there had a purpose and loved me was so important to me.

[00:09:02] I think little younger younger me,

[00:09:05] Definitely, I was thankful to be in a church where the messages weren't about wrath and sinfulness as much

[00:09:11] As they were about God loves you. And I know in evangelicalism, you get all of it.

[00:09:16] But some some dials are dialed up a lot higher than other ones, you know?

[00:09:20] And it also seems like that was what you needed to hear.

[00:09:24] So maybe there was more sin and wrath messages, but what you needed to hear was this like love and kindness.

[00:09:31] And I mean, we all need to hear that. But it's like God for you was this like parent figure that was always there,

[00:09:39] Which you didn't have in your biological parents was kind and loving, which you didn't have in your foster parents.

[00:09:44] And you didn't have to parent him. He was, you know, they are taking care of you.

[00:09:49] And that's it was this promise of like, it'll work out in the end.

[00:09:53] And again, I think that is something that God religion, the idea of God can be really helpful for for a lot of people.

[00:10:01] For sure. For sure. And like yeah, that gave me something to feel like I mattered in that there was purpose and then I wasn't just abandoned and not cared about

[00:10:11] And it was a powerful message. I think I did have some very loving church leaders around me.

[00:10:16] I think of my pastor growing up in my church. He was the kind of man it was such a

[00:10:21] And I think sometimes Christians are very complex. So I'm, I might make statements that kind of broad brush. And so this is my attempt to be a little more nuanced.

[00:10:28] I'll start off that way and then I might to both. Okay guys can all be patient.

[00:10:32] I started with good and then we'll talk about work.

[00:10:35] Although they will start talking from my heart and I'll just be a little more broad brush.

[00:10:39] But you know, like going back as a kid. So I the Italian Pentecostal church I grew up in. I would say in a lot of ways the kids were pretty wealthy.

[00:10:46] The parents came from a generation where they love immigrants. But the kids were definitely given a lot and I was the poor family at church and it really showed.

[00:10:54] And it was, it was a difficult thing to be in a community where people would get a car for their 16th birthday and people would come to church really dress to the health.

[00:11:02] And at church I felt there was clicks whereas when I go to my public school I blended in no one cared like there wasn't this economic gap that was noticeable at school.

[00:11:11] I really blended and I got along with everyone at church. The wealth gap thing kind of was a reality. The kids that kind of looked down at me, which get your shoes from Walmart.

[00:11:20] You know, or start speaking in Italian when I walked in because they knew I couldn't speak it.

[00:11:24] That kind of being left out thing was a church thing for me, which was strange because God loved me. But my peers were a little bratty.

[00:11:30] However, the adults around me a lot of them were, they were aware that like I came from a foster. Like they were, it's like a lot of the adult, the Sunday school teachers, the pastors really.

[00:11:40] They saw in me that that kid that was earnest and wanted to learn and cared. And they saw on me a kid that needed the love and the care and that that was.

[00:11:49] And so that a lot of the, the adults in my community really stepped up to be thoughtful and sweet and compassionate.

[00:11:55] And when I think of so just giving the whole just how it was a mishmash right. So like I said church very wealthy. My pastor would say things like so people will be like panacost all you became from a charismatic church.

[00:12:06] And I'm like, I have to put qualifier because I'm like, well Italian panacost was we drank alcohol. Which was the only panacost was I knew you weren't going to tell Italians they couldn't drink wine. So like the panacost church isn't a Canada had had their own branch called the IPCC or whatever.

[00:12:21] We're stood for the Italian panacost church to Canada and they they drank alcohol. So when I ended up in a panacost church later as a young adult visiting and they were telling me how you can't drink.

[00:12:29] You know, it was like what you didn't have this role. What do you mean? You can get a telling to give up their wine not for not for Holy Spirit or anyone like it's just staying okay.

[00:12:39] Holy Spirit gave us control of ourselves okay we could drink wine. But so it was it was interesting. So when I get passionate about here.

[00:12:46] You're my Italian coming out more than when I'm not but yeah so on one hand it's funny because you know a lot of panacostal denomination side from just the alcohol. There's a lot more women in ministry.

[00:12:59] Italian churches are very patriarchal. So in that sense, I felt like I relate with a lot of fundamentalists in terms of the patriarchy in terms of so my pastor would say things like, you know, when you come to church you dress up for God. Like that's recign a respect.

[00:13:13] And so they would say, well, what if someone came off the streets and homeless and they only had a pair of jeans? What will we say? Because we tell people they have to dress up for church. He's like, I would buy them a suit. We would provide them with a suit. And they were serious. Like it was just like, well, of course your dress shouldn't prevent you from coming to be in the house of the Lord, but we will we will dress you to be appropriately reverent before God. So it's so the cultural stuff right? Like it was just it's interesting looking back has been in a few different evangelical denomination sense, but even just the new one.

[00:13:43] So the only difference is the culture on top of the panacostomists brought a certain flavor to it. But one of the things that I loved about my pastor was he, so in one hand it's like you got to dress up to come to church. But the heart was there in terms of care for others and I always a little kid.

[00:13:57] I paid attention to how people talk to my parents, you know, because they were not wealthy. They were not people with social status. You know, they weren't the people you needed to become friends with if you wanted to move up a ladder and church or be seen as cool.

[00:14:12] Yeah, they were often the other end of that and how they were looked at by people around them. So I paid attention to the adults who really honored them or who are kind or thoughtful. And I think as a little kid, I had maybe a bigger perspective on people around me.

[00:14:26] I still find I judge people very quickly, but it's been a survival skill that I can't turn off is to have to observe what's going on around me fast and make assessments.

[00:14:34] But one of those quick assessments I've learned to do was just watching how do people treat those who can't give them back anything in return. Like that shows you a window into the kind of human being you're dealing with. And so I remember my pastor would always be shaking my dad's hand and chatting with him and talking to him just like he was any other person at church. And as a little kid, I felt safe around him.

[00:14:53] And I remember he would talk to the kids and say, you know, don't let anyone look, you'd quote the Bible. Don't let anyone look down on you because you're young but setting example and he was like, you your relationship with God is just as important and powerful as any adults around you don't let anyone.

[00:15:08] I told you back from serving God, from loving God, from all of that. You know, encouraging you to get baptized when you're really young. Which I look back at and I'm like, that's interesting. You know what I mean? Like your brain is not fully formed. It's interesting commitments. We're asking kids to make right. But then we're going to say there's all these other things they're too young to hear about no about.

[00:15:27] But they're a eternal destination. Yeah, you figure that out when you're seven sure why not hanging hell. You can handle that.

[00:15:33] You will talk about hearing. You can hear about sex but you can hear about being tortured for eternity. And it's sex. You can't hear about your own gender.

[00:15:40] But you could hear about the torture that will await you if you don't make the right decision. So yeah, it's an interesting mix of everything, right? Like the good and the bad and there.

[00:15:49] But I grew up feeling loved. I'll say another good thing. My pastor taught us two question things. I remember he would say things like, don't think just because I'm the pastor and I'm up here speaking that you should just accept what I have to say.

[00:16:02] I want to see your bibles open and I want to see what's happening. Everything I say up against the word of God. I mean he was very passionate.

[00:16:10] Creature. He was not. But I loved that he taught people to think for themselves and it instilled in me young this idea that just because I'm within Christianity and I think my authorities are right.

[00:16:20] It doesn't mean I shouldn't be checking it and seeing if I actually think every he's like, I could be wrong. You don't know. And so that helped me and I and I actually really ran up against that fast in my pentacostal upbringing.

[00:16:31] Because there was this speaking in tongues and I as a kid prayed that I would have to give through the Holy Spirit because and it was interesting because different pentacostals have different ways of looking at it.

[00:16:42] But a lot of them have the take and I ended up hearing that take unfortunately because it's pretty damaging. I felt like my relationship with God was something cool, but then to hear.

[00:16:50] Well, no, everyone who's a real believer will speak in tongues. And if you want that assurance, you know, that comes through knowing you've been baptized in the spirit and they use a verse to say that.

[00:17:00] So then I was like, well, how do I get that? Like you pray for it and growing up in that culture I saw so much faking it. So many people who had put on these charismatic shows, you know, whether it was falling down with or being pushed to fall down, being slain in the spirit, whether it was speaking in tongues looks spiritual and like this show that would be put on and then taken off as soon as people walked out the door with something I became a young aware of sort of that performance aspect to it.

[00:17:29] And I think too maybe because I was very attuned as a kid to paying attention to cues of like adults around me and who safe and who's not safe. One of those other factors that I think hit me young was manipulation in terms of even music, like watching them play a song 10 times in a row until people are crying and coming forward and giving their life to God. And then next week the same thing over and over right like sort of so much emotional manipulation. Yes, in charismatic spaces even if it's not intentional. It's like yes.

[00:17:58] Yeah, totally. And I think that's something that turned me off very young was that sort of manipulation and that pressure through emotional manipulation. You said it very well.

[00:18:08] And it's done in many, many different facets besides from just the music. But the whole speaking in tongues thing. I think I wanted to get baptized and they had a membership agreement you had to because you're becoming a member if you got baptized as it's well for your all I remember reading through that intently like line for line and going

[00:18:25] I don't think I agree with this like and and studying the Bible on my own and being like actually I don't meet think it's even biblical that I would speak in tongues and I have Google to search this stuff.

[00:18:38] You know to come to these conclusions, so I was like old school going through looking through all of the things in Bible pages. We had to turn through and look up all the answers.

[00:18:48] My really cool teen study Bible with the neon highlighted you know front cover, you know that we all had yeah that that was a big thing. The coolest the coolest those of you who are in a van jell close and you totally know what those 80s teen study Bible looked like but yeah we had I had one of those

[00:19:05] And and yeah so like I chose not to get baptized because I didn't want to I didn't want to be dishonest and say I agreed to all this if I didn't so that put me in a weird situation really young was like oh you know my pastor taught me I could disagree and oopsie I disagree right off of that.

[00:19:21] I just like my heart feels for a little gal who was like deconstructing before you even were really in it. You know you're like you were like I don't think I technically agree with this so like I'm going to take a little step back I'm not going to get baptized you know.

[00:19:35] Evangelical pastors here's a word for you. You want to keep them in the Evangelical tradition do not teach them to think for themselves and it's very important that you do not tell the little kids

[00:19:46] To do their own evaluating of things like just don't do that you are setting the stage for them to deconstruct later if you tell them yet I tell them that you as the pastor are God's mouthpiece and that yeah all the right stuff yes you are the other

[00:20:04] And then they do that and it's because it keeps people in it keeps people looking to them for all the answers so yeah I'm thankful for those those sort of foundational things that he kind of laid out for me in terms of and even that whole the way he loved others right in the way he treated my parents setting the stage for me to have that as a core of what I thought Christianity was right like to me Christianity was a religion about love God will all your heart then the second command is like it love your neighbor as yourself and the golden rule due to others is you would have been due to you like those are things.

[00:20:33] I still love them all like I those are core values to me that I hold on to and that are important to me and they formed and shaped me and I haven't those things I haven't had to get rid of thankfully

[00:20:43] But they they are probably pieces as well that added to my deconstruction as I went along in church and I was like how are we doing with this measurement right loving other people is the most important thing how's this working out

[00:20:54] Is the world doing a better job than us at loving the people around them and that question eight away at me in so many different areas the longer the longer I was in it and while we're some ways that you saw people in your church doing that like loving other people well or ways that you saw them not doing that.

[00:21:11] Well, like I said my peers weren't really good at it, but I talked that up to immaturity and just being a normal kid who wants to be cool and you know, you know all of that.

[00:21:20] And the adults who really did a good job at showing love to my parents showing love to me as a kid who needed who needed that who needed the adults who wanted to step in and be kind to me.

[00:21:28] That was I guess that's that would be like chapter one of Gilles Evangelical life was was till I would say I and I stayed in my church until I was about 15 and at 15 years old and you like I said I hadn't gone baptized so starting to question do I is this really this theologically doesn't match up with me very well and then at 15 I got pregnant which.

[00:21:50] You know you'd have to tie that into the purity culture of the 80s the true love weights movement Joshua Harris I read I cast a good bye and I had just switched foster homes as well finally got out of the really horribly abusive one at 15 and yeah and so at that time.

[00:22:07] I was not using protection because well you didn't know that would mean you didn't learn about it you're not supposed to have it with you so like my public school would teach us about contraceptives and why you you know when you're ready to have sex but then at church they'd be saying.

[00:22:21] If you have a condom on your planning to send you abstinence is the only way and my heart wanted to do that but my body at that age was like this so much by.

[00:22:34] And and I enjoyed and I enjoyed that young I really I have always been a person who I get a lot out of physical touch and I think you know it's been something grounding to me and purity culture you know did a lot of damage in terms of making me feel like.

[00:22:48] That side of me was sinful and lustful and evil and bad and you know it's something I am supposed to avoid but then it ends up a game because you're like oh I feel so bad I'm not going to do this again.

[00:23:00] And then after a while you're saying that to yourself but you know you're lying through your teeth you're like yeah I have to say that I feel bad thing and try and convince but it didn't feel bad you know and so I didn't prepare for for getting pregnant I didn't protect myself and I did get pregnant at 15 and.

[00:23:17] Right around that time that's when I made the switch of churches because well.

[00:23:22] Culturally two Italians and getting pregnant as a teenager and my family was my my relatives were at church I didn't want to grace them all and embarrass them.

[00:23:31] So there was a church that was nearby had it been attending more like I would say it was open brother and but I'd give it for people never heard of brother and churches like a that just like kind of vibe would be would be how you I know you you understand that culture very well.

[00:23:44] You shared your story on our podcast and that was similar to to what open brother and was if I'm going to compare it to a bigger Christian denomination and so.

[00:23:55] That jive more with my theology very much more like I and I was going there for you group I ended up meeting actually one of my foster sisters became my best friend I can't buy went to and she wasn't my foster sister at the time just a girl that I really bonded with well.

[00:24:10] And when things got too crazy in my old foster home to the point where we had to have cops pulling us out and making a smile police reports on the whole place.

[00:24:20] I didn't I didn't know who I could trust or talk to or go to without a whole situation and it was her dad who ends up stepping in I'd met her at camp her dad had run the camp and you know I know he had been an advocate for foster kids and as a young kid.

[00:24:35] We had tried to speak to adults at different points about what was going on and it often really backfired horribly bad on us as kids you're not believed a lot.

[00:24:44] And some kids make up things because they want to go live with their parents and and that's a normal thing to want to go back but.

[00:24:49] You know we were my old foster mother was really cruel and very cunning like all the bad villain characters crafty and knowing how to put on an act when she needed to.

[00:24:59] In order to get people to believe like I remember once she ball their eyes out she's like to the soul sugar how could those girls make up such stories about me I can't believe it.

[00:25:09] I've been nothing but like really like Oscar winning performance she gave and I just watched my social workers face buying into it like I could see on her the expressions of oh that's bad you girls made that up and so.

[00:25:22] You know like having to evaluate adults really young you know and realizing who could I trust how will I be believed and it not working.

[00:25:30] The first time is we tried to talk about the abuse we were living through and like you shouldn't have to do that at that age you know it's like I know you already know this but I just want to like take a minute.

[00:25:39] And acknowledge that like a young child should not have to be responsible for like reading adults at well you know there should be trusted adults in your life and.

[00:25:51] Yeah, I mean in some ways to this day it's I guess it's both a good skill to have an trauma responses skill overflow as a reflex I can't turn off where when I get to know people I make quick assessments of things now they're not permanent I've learned you know.

[00:26:05] Keep watching you know if you get bad feelings trust your body, trust your gut and then keep seeing things continue to to back up what you're feeling or not you know.

[00:26:14] But yeah it's it's a skill that's been honed from from being really young of having to evaluate adults around me and so yeah thankfully you know her dad she became my best friend at camp and her dad who ran the camp was well known by social workers he had foster kids too.

[00:26:30] My foster sister was adopted like one of his adopted kids but he had also foster kids as well and I took a year of going to youth group at her church so I was going to my Italian church on Sundays and then on Friday nights ago to the youth group with this that just church right.

[00:26:44] That lined up with my theology a little better and her dad was often running a lot of the teenage programs and so I spent a good year evaluating him like just watching him listening to him.

[00:27:10] There's a lot I learned how to bear up under you know when things didn't work and we ended up staying even though there was a lot of abuse of all kinds.

[00:27:16] I think I got I got very used to that and so things had to go up a whole other level for me to be like okay no I actually this is not it's not sustainable and I couldn't even talk about my story at the time I had to write it out in the letter and I gave it to him and he read it and as an adult he believed me which was huge for me because I didn't know which adults I could trust to believe my story.

[00:27:40] I think a women in how often women are disbelief when they talk about sexual abuse but kids and foster kids another one where I'm like yeah having someone who finally looks at you and just trusts you right off the bat and doesn't assume that you're making up stuff is huge when you're going through trauma.

[00:27:54] Yeah and this is like hitting me as a teacher not deconstruction related but as a teacher just the importance of being a safe adult for kids and listening to my students and you know I try to do that anyway but like to hear your story is just like yes they are looking for safety and yeah.

[00:28:14] Yeah yep and so he did he did listen he believed us and then he had enough club to in order to be taken seriously by our social worker which was important and that was also something I was looking at when I decided to tell him yeah to think through all these details of like okay.

[00:28:32] And my foster mother when the time my social worker left is believing us she beat the shit out of us so badly after sorry the me you put a trigger warning at the beginning of this episode too for domestic childhood abuse put maybe some of those warnings ahead of it.

[00:29:07] And so that is for this yeah I don't want to break people out who are not ready to get into listening to this but.

[00:29:17] Because all other foster kids they're locked in cages like that one yeah look how much better you have it yeah oh yeah yeah a lot of manipulation and so.

[00:29:26] There was a big a big fear about if and she said it to us like if you ever say anything to anyone again and like the threats of violence were there so.

[00:29:34] I was very scared if I told the wrong person who didn't believe me we could we could die like that was a real fear that I had that like we might not get out of there.

[00:29:42] And so it was a big deal to to get out of there to be in a safe home and then I switched churches and I ended up there full time and then not not long after moving into that foster home I ended up pregnant with my with my daughter with my oldest who.

[00:29:57] And I was 15 at the time so is it is a big as a child next chapter of my life sort of jumps in there.

[00:30:06] And did I end up getting married to to the dad of of my daughter who I got married at 17 which is nuts it's very and and the adults all around me were just the Evangelicals were thrilled they were happy they were like.

[00:30:18] Good you know you're with the dad of the kids intact families that's what matters and marriage of course you know if you're going to be together has to be under marriage scambi having sex outside marriage so yeah can make this life commitment at 17 makes sense to us.

[00:30:33] And you know if some adults around me would have tried to talk sense into me at that age I was so in self indoctrinated.

[00:30:40] Like I had like read I kids dating goodbye like the adults around me were backing up what I already believed but then you know which came first to check another the great they were also ones that taught me those things.

[00:30:50] Right so like then they were just supporting what I already believe that I learned through through what they had taught.

[00:30:55] Like you believed them because it lined up with what you had read and you read it because they told you to read it on so you know this cycle.

[00:31:03] Yeah Evangelical culture right so there's a weird piece of growing up Evangelical they'll often listen to kids whose parents you know they didn't have a choice and they felt trapped in it where it's different for me and that I felt like I self indoctrinated.

[00:31:16] But I also have to take the the moment to say yes, but this is what I was provided with by the adults around me right in my spiritual community these were the things they were teaching me I didn't come up with these ideas on myself it was my community teaching them to me.

[00:31:30] And I was looking for tools to survive I was doing what I could to hang in there to keep living to keep going so yeah it's it's a mixed it's a little bit of a mixed back but it is a weird feeling to know like I passionately followed this 100% wholeheartedly coming from me.

[00:31:48] You know prayed from my mom to get saved all the time try to like bring her to Jesus and so yeah age 17 get married had my second my youngest kid by 18 I had two kids that's like my my kids now are.

[00:32:02] 25 and 27 and they don't have kids and I'm like so proud of you guys you're not married you don't have kids so great you know like.

[00:32:08] They've loved like if they choose to now or have kids or get married I wouldn't at their age I feel like they're well rounded adults but their brains are fully formed and I'm happy for them that they made it to this age without being parents or being married yet and I'm proud of them like you guys have done so much better than me like I'm so proud of you guys.

[00:32:25] But it's weird to have kids that are 25 and 27 and then to think back to when they were 16 or 18 and imagine them with two kids by 18 is to me it's a little mix my mind like.

[00:32:37] I'm still and probably the older I get the crazier it seems to me to think of all of that you know some people were like like were you scared at age 16 and I'm like actually.

[00:32:47] No and that's even weirder like that's even stranger I think the abusive background that I'd come out of was just so and highly intensely bad.

[00:32:57] That finding it I was pregnant of all the things that I've been there did not sound scary it didn't sound like it should have sounded to me with a little more acknowledge and life experience it would have sounded to me.

[00:33:10] It's funny when I when I got pregnant my second I wasn't want more like oh I didn't want like I was using contraceptive at that point and I was like why.

[00:33:18] Because I had parented one at 16 and knew how much work that was.

[00:33:22] Yeah, two no way.

[00:33:23] I had a little more of a perspective at that point but yeah I didn't feel like a big bump in my road.

[00:33:31] In fact, like it felt somewhat stable to be in a family like I had my kids I had my husband and I.

[00:33:37] I.

[00:33:38] Chape next chapter, gale plunged into her church community I was Sunday school teacher RBS leader woman's ministry.

[00:33:46] I did it all, I was I got hired as a youth pastor which didn't use that title because it was a patriarchal church with male elders and stuff so is used chair you know that was how they how they work their way around it but there was people annoyed that I had I was on staff and.

[00:33:59] You know, they didn't have many people on staff and actually most of the youth pastors in my city and Montreal were volunteers

[00:34:06] They weren't but I had so many kids that was such a big youth group and I was putting in so many hours volunteering that eventually

[00:34:12] They staffed me. So I was so in it, you know

[00:34:15] I put my kids in the awanas and the all this all it was called something else pioneers

[00:34:20] And like had their own version of it, but you know what I mean the Christian clubs yeah totally in it

[00:34:24] And I just want to pause and like

[00:34:26] Point out that you were living the life that you were like supposed to live at this point

[00:34:32] Yes, you got pregnant if 15 like okay

[00:34:34] The church could be like that's bad

[00:34:36] But then you got married you had a second kid

[00:34:38] You're now like a family of four and going to church and leading this youth group or taking your kids to a wana and so

[00:34:47] It's like both what the church kind of holds as this like the gold standard in terms of like what you should do

[00:34:54] And like what a family should look like and also

[00:34:57] It's probably this family that you were craving for a long time too

[00:35:02] You know, you're in this foster family that's not

[00:35:05] Not a family and you're parenting your parents and now you get to like like of course

[00:35:10] You're not afraid to be a parent. You already kind of were yeah, and you've been parenting yourself for so long

[00:35:16] You know, you don't have somebody really looking after you that like of course

[00:35:20] You can be a parent for someone else and you can do a really good job at that actually

[00:35:25] I never thought of that before so funny, but thanks

[00:35:28] Yeah, yeah, I was like, why was my scared?

[00:35:30] You were already parent girl. Oh, I wonder if you

[00:35:37] Greve your childhood like do like not just the things that happened to in your childhood

[00:35:42] Which I'm sure there's grief around that too, but like you didn't have a childhood

[00:35:47] Yeah, I I think throughout my life one of those themes that comes up often enough is that there is

[00:35:54] A few different versions of myself. I don't know if you know like it looked into internal family systems at all

[00:35:59] Yeah, you're nodding your head for anyone who follows along

[00:36:02] But it's it's so well just do a quick summary. It's like there's different pieces inside you different parts of yourself

[00:36:07] They call them parts, I think but and I'm not super in depth that knowledge on the whole thing

[00:36:11] I'm not I'm not there. I'm not a Jarvis, but I just love learning about psychology and

[00:36:17] Religious trauma has helped me direct me in this way and I think it's super helpful in useful actually

[00:36:21] And before I even had those terms or studied IFS or looked into any of that

[00:36:25] I would say there's different versions of myself and

[00:36:28] What I would have said is and what I still say about myself is I have a playful side of me that feels like a very authentic

[00:36:34] True version of who I am that loves to play and that loves to goof off and loves to tease and loves to so when I'm in relationships

[00:36:41] The closer I am to someone the more I'm likely to just bug them about anything like silly bug them, you know like just get a get a rise out of them and like

[00:36:48] Not in any mean or cruel way has to be mutual they have to feel comfortable

[00:36:52] But like that playfulness is a love language of mine actually like I hate that Gary Chapman wrote love languages and all the other

[00:36:59] Raggers that comes with them but the idea of like this is how I how I how I feel loved and how I express love is through being playful and silly

[00:37:06] That piece of myself is often I feel like lost there's the teacher serious side of me who was also very legit

[00:37:13] That is a legit part piece of who I am that I love too somebody who likes to help instruct be there for support

[00:37:19] But I feel like that version of myself has always had to be front and center has always been pushed up and made to do that

[00:37:26] Responsible role like I was a

[00:37:29] Big sister to my little sister, but I felt like a parent to her two in a lot of ways because we didn't have parents in the home

[00:37:34] So, you know taught her how to read tire shoes when like I was a big advocate of hers

[00:37:39] But like I wish I had a big sister growing up, you know, I wish I had someone on top of me to like check it on me or how

[00:37:46] Like you know if my sister was crying I'd come for her but like if I was crying

[00:37:51] I wish I had a big sister that could have just swooped in and like gave me some comfort so yeah

[00:37:55] I'm sad I guess that the younger version of me the playful piece of who I am

[00:38:00] When I get to do that it feels so refreshing

[00:38:04] It feels lovely and I feel like that's often a piece of myself that gets pushed back

[00:38:09] Even still I feel like I have just fallen into a lot of

[00:38:13] Patterns in life that put me so that next chapter and I would maybe won't go super in

[00:38:18] Depolacy of questions that I maybe will trigger some thoughts but I ended up in with my ex

[00:38:23] Has been for 20 years and a marriage that wasn't great and you know the messaging of church was you know

[00:38:30] Divorce is not an option and I think one of those lines. I don't know if you've ever heard this but this stuck with me and it disturbs me

[00:38:37] But Billy Graham's wife was once I do you have your heard this quote?

[00:38:41] I'm so grateful. I know I was thinking of the quote that you guys have in your

[00:38:46] In your

[00:38:48] Like she

[00:38:50] Hyperdico that like gives me a shield to my soul when I hear it

[00:38:54] I'll use your ad in this episode so people can hear what we're talking about but it's like

[00:38:59] A woman and and there's a you know abuse and a beating for a time and then maybe the next day she goes to church or something like that

[00:39:08] Okay, yeah, that's what I thought I'm gonna say but no. I don't know the

[00:39:11] Billy Graham's wife was asked if she's ever considered divorce and her response was no but I've considered murder

[00:39:20] Laph Q. Giggle

[00:39:22] That's and I have a fact check this today. This is something I've heard over and over so who knows if it's a myth or

[00:39:28] Like a you know something gets attributed to someone that's not actually them so if anyone wants to message me

[00:39:34] I and Greens say girl that's actually not accurate. I don't want to

[00:39:36] Maline someone's

[00:39:38] Reputation by saying something that's not true about them but

[00:39:41] That teaching

[00:39:42] That somebody who's so regarded in terms of the church that it's a joke to think she would consider murder before divorce

[00:39:50] With something I internalized was this idea that like divorce was just the absolute worst like

[00:39:55] I've I've talked to a lot of women who've been in bad marriage just you know you comparing stories sometimes and

[00:40:00] That whole you know have you ever had thoughts of wishing your spouse would have died because you

[00:40:05] Divorce was an an option for you like the thought of oh, I'd be free and like feeling really guilty about that like

[00:40:11] That would be an out and that you'd feel relieved and

[00:40:14] I know it wasn't the only person who thought such a thing and that's horrible

[00:40:19] Like I don't even know how to say like if in your mind you go man

[00:40:23] Freedom for me, I would be looked like if my spouse passed I'd have I've had a new good life possibility in front of me like

[00:40:29] There's so many women that have been taught that you stick it out no matter what that that's God's plan for you

[00:40:35] The messages that I heard often were

[00:40:38] Marriages hard work and you know

[00:40:41] It's not supposed to be easy and God cares more about your he you had a pipe or background

[00:40:45] God cares more about your holiness than your happiness. I think that's pipe right or no, but it's not our hate

[00:40:49] kindness yeah

[00:40:51] So ridiculous

[00:40:54] Then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smack one night and then she seeks help from the church

[00:41:03] There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Marcil bus and by God's grace it'll be a mountain by the time

[00:41:10] We're done you either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options

[00:41:13] There's nothing holy about writing discrimination into the law and I am tired of communities of faith

[00:41:22] Being weaponized because the only time religious freedom is involved is in the name of bigotry and discrimination

[00:41:29] I'm tired of it

[00:41:31] Hi, I'm Nate

[00:41:32] Producer and co-host on the full mutuality podcast

[00:41:35] Let's talk about inequality

[00:41:37] It's everywhere

[00:41:39] Whether it's rooted in race gender ability or sexuality

[00:41:42] There's bound to be an imbalance in power influence representation and access on our show

[00:41:48] We want to explore areas of religion culture and society where justice is needed in order to bring about true mutuality

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[00:42:02] Where everyone can live free from systems and structures that keep us from being truly equal

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[00:42:11] Community.com to find a list of all the platforms we're available on subscribe today and we'll see you on the full mutuality podcast

[00:42:22] Subscribe to this podcast by visiting dotless dot FM yeah divorce should be enough of an option

[00:42:29] I mean divorce should be an option period, but divorce should be enough of an option that

[00:42:35] People aren't wishing or like daydreaming about their spouse dying

[00:42:39] They're so cute or like or I'm laughing at it's awful

[00:42:44] Like you should have an out of an unhealthy marriage like it either party like even if let's just say it's like

[00:42:52] It's just not working anymore, you know like even if it's not for abusive reasons

[00:42:57] People can be together for a while and then decide not to be like that should be this should be allowed

[00:43:04] I don't know why this is not

[00:43:06] You know and that's taken me a long time to even grasp on to what you just said, you know

[00:43:13] Even if it's not abusive because you know

[00:43:15] Having been so heavily indoctrinated into divorce is evil divorce is bad and that you know keeping me where I was and also

[00:43:23] I didn't recognize like

[00:43:25] Emotional abuse is being as serious as physical abuse and churches don't do a great job at

[00:43:30] Plaining that difference either so it's like oh, he never you never hit me so it's fine, you know the rest of this stuff is fine

[00:43:38] And but churches can't teach you the

[00:43:42] Problems with emotional abuse because that's kind of their search. That's their thing

[00:43:48] There was early on in in my Facebook page of full mutuality

[00:43:53] I had put out a status like and I seen it somewhere else as a quote

[00:43:56] I was sharing it was like if churches taught women to recognize abuse and leave their husband

[00:44:01] They believe in their churches too and when I read that the amount of people liked and shared that

[00:44:04] I think was one of my most initially first most liked and shared thing

[00:44:07] And I think it disturbed me to realize how much that resonated with everyone yeah to be like this is something a lot of us are

[00:44:13] Experience yeah because God's love the way that they taught it to us is abusive like that isn't abusive relationship

[00:44:20] Love me or else. I will punish you. Oh, I love you so you should love me back

[00:44:26] Like I deserve it because I created I deserve this love because I created you because I love you so you have to give it to me

[00:44:33] Or I will punish you we did a Valentine's day up as a Nate Mike called to much level kill you or something like that

[00:44:39] It was like our ash Valentine's day episode

[00:44:41] We did this year and it was on that hole, you know being taught

[00:44:45] You can't love people too much or God will take them away from you or that hole just this whole weird relationship

[00:44:51] But love like I said love was a core value for me. I held on to but there was all these other messages thrown in that

[00:44:56] We're just twisted and I think you saying, you know, we were taught in abuse of love

[00:45:00] Me there's some people listening really what do you mean that episode we kind of unpack some of those versus some of those things that we were told in church

[00:45:07] That a lot of people experienced

[00:45:09] But you do eat when you we interviewed you on our podcast that episode you talked about some childhood stories of yours that blew my mind in terms of

[00:45:16] You know just being like no is arc, you know, and I was just like oh God doesn't kill us all again

[00:45:20] You know or

[00:45:21] Isaac and like I

[00:45:23] I don't know for my parents. I don't think they would sacrifice me. Oh, no, I hope they wouldn't get in trouble

[00:45:27] God and I was just like wow younger you was like

[00:45:30] Confused about these stories and rightfully confused right? Like doesn't match up with a loving healthy

[00:45:36] God and scenario right and and now I think about like Sodom and Gamora or no is the Sodom and Gamora and lots wife looked back

[00:45:43] I'm doing to a player self. Yes, I'm like I would look back too

[00:45:47] Like I don't you want to look back and you like don't you care about what's happening

[00:45:52] Isn't like why is that so bad and God dies to like have compassionate and but they for other people

[00:45:59] And when you think about it's like okay, well, he obviously doesn't care. He just wiped the them out

[00:46:05] He just chose to like take all of these people out of course like he this

[00:46:10] This is a mess. It makes me so mad. Yes. Yes. There are so many and

[00:46:15] You know it's funny because I look back at you know my relationship to God and I look at my my actual marriage for 20 years and I and I think of

[00:46:24] What it is to live in you know Genesis quote about

[00:46:27] Maybe as passionate in my dismantling as I was in my dissonance. I look at the dissonance

[00:46:32] The cut when I learn the word cognitive dissonance like words like deconstruction are helpful because it helps people

[00:46:36] We're putting terminology to

[00:46:39] To spiritual abuse to trauma that we've gone through and it's so helpful to start to learn these things

[00:46:43] But cognitive dissonance is one of those words for me. That's been really aha for me

[00:46:48] In terms of piecing together stuff like what you were taught right here

[00:46:51] We're taught God is love and then we're taught this love that's really

[00:46:54] awful and horrible and and we need to put it out of our mind like it's just things where you can't hold on to them throughout the day

[00:47:00] You gotta like just pretend you didn't see what you just saw God do like you're not supposed to take vengeance

[00:47:05] But God just wiped everyone else out. It just doesn't it's not adding up right? And so you got to hold these two

[00:47:11] Beliefs at the same time and pretend you're not seeing what you're seeing and so I think

[00:47:15] I feel like my relationship with God will ahead a lot of positives and it taught me some really good things about

[00:47:20] You know caring for other people and loving people at the same time it taught me a lot how to practice cognitive dissonance well

[00:47:27] And I think that's how I held on to my relationship for that long that with the idea that you know

[00:47:32] You don't you don't ever get a divorce and I think

[00:47:35] It's taken me a long time like

[00:47:37] Being out of church and meeting people who didn't have abusive relationships where it wasn't a good fit for me to even be like no marriage

[00:47:45] You should be allowed to get out without having like I felt like I had to prove abuse in order to justify my exit when I

[00:47:53] Exited and there was

[00:47:55] Like there was an areas

[00:47:57] But at the same time I look at people where

[00:48:00] I like I guess I've recently deconstructed through watching friends get out of marriages where it was just a really

[00:48:07] Poor fit for the two of them without judgment and that's been hard for me to learn to undo my judgment of other people who are getting divorced for other reasons

[00:48:14] And being like you're still entitled to support this is still this is not a failure of a marriage

[00:48:18] This is a success that you're realizing when this is not good for the two of you and

[00:48:24] Yeah, so

[00:48:25] I was nice to hear you saying that just about how you know

[00:48:28] You don't have to have abuse in order for a divorce to be legitimate like that's taken me a long time

[00:48:34] Right like marriage shouldn't be held above two people being independently healthy and so if together you can't be

[00:48:41] Healthy like you you're allowed to get out like and not and and get out maybe is to

[00:48:47] Maybe that feels like

[00:48:49] More of an escape when it is but like you are allowed to choose to live independent lives from there

[00:48:56] And this is not like a moral judgment on who you are as a person, you know

[00:49:00] We were taught oh we're taught to judge right?

[00:49:03] Retop that divorce that is like it's being a divorced woman at church is terrible

[00:49:07] And it's such a scarlet like letter that women who and it's I think a lot of women get divorced and end of leaving church

[00:49:12] Those two things they went together for me

[00:49:14] Yeah, but I think they do for a lot of people and I think

[00:49:19] Like so when I left my the church that I was in and I went I visited another one and it shortly

[00:49:24] There after I just stopped attending evangelical church and there was a lot of reasons

[00:49:28] And you can ask me questions and I'll go but I

[00:49:30] Think the one of the first things I heard in another church when I walked in and I sat and I'm like he's a different church, you know, and

[00:49:37] The guy gets up the worship leader. He's drumming his guitar and he's like

[00:49:41] You know one of the problems in our society today is that everybody just cares about my happiness

[00:49:47] It's all about me. It's all about being happy

[00:49:50] Nobody wants to like be loving. It's all selfishness and so people just abandon their marriages

[00:49:55] They're just like I just want to be happy and I was like oh my like I'm sitting there

[00:49:59] Seating see they want to be happy and part of that for me is leaving my marriage a hundred percent

[00:50:06] Yes, and and I knew so many abused women who stayed

[00:50:11] way too long and harm their kids and I'm in that group

[00:50:14] Because they stayed too long and that was the reason these messages up front like and I and I find

[00:50:21] Evangelicals make a lot of statements without recognizing they're putting people's lives at risk

[00:50:26] That's one of them. That's encouraging people to view others leaving their marriages as being frivolous and just only being selfish

[00:50:33] Is a way to endanger women and kids

[00:50:35] It's a way to put the lives of human beings

[00:50:38] Arisk another one is like

[00:50:40] Be coming out of charismatic circles this healing stuff where it's like depression is just the attack of the enemy

[00:50:45] Stop taking your meds and just pray and trust Jesus like I've had that thrown at me and like the amount of people who

[00:50:51] Possibly have not made it, you know who who've possibly died by suicide like taking terrible advice

[00:50:57] Like that when they needed medication is it's so frightening to me like I think some of the the messaging inside of

[00:51:03] Evangelicals and can just be so dangerous and

[00:51:05] harmful and I wish these were like crazy exceptions

[00:51:08] But I've heard too many you know, it's not every church to does that not every pastor

[00:51:12] And some people get it right in some areas and then really fail horribly on another topic

[00:51:16] But like these are common threads that I've heard from many different strands

[00:51:19] I don't like okay yeah in charismatic circles to I've heard

[00:51:23] That if you are you know struggling with depression or anxiety or something like that that it's

[00:51:29] It can be seen as this like demon. That's inside of you

[00:51:33] So they'll yeah like an exercise or something and it's like

[00:51:36] This is a person who's just trying to ask for help, you know

[00:51:40] I do think you know my Evangelical bringing has played a role in damaging

[00:51:45] A lot of people around me in different ways what you just said about exercising a demon my dad my biological dad who

[00:51:51] Had issues he was you know like I said younger mentally

[00:51:53] But he was also he had schizophrenia disorder so that would be a combination of schizophrenia and bipolar

[00:51:59] Okay, and so he would have huge ups and huge downs. He'd hear voices

[00:52:04] Yeah demonic was absolutely something that got stuck to him when he was dealing with delusions and

[00:52:11] That's horrible like it is horrible to make someone into literally the epitome of evil

[00:52:16] For having a mental health struggle and

[00:52:19] And then I look at myself and how long it took me to get help for depression

[00:52:23] And when my daughter actually was she ended up and having her own struggles as well

[00:52:27] I was not quick on

[00:52:29] Getting her the support that she needed because again, we're so discouraged in churches from looking at mental health issues in a

[00:52:37] In a medically informed light you know everything becomes a spiritual battle

[00:52:40] There's a lot of fear medicine

[00:52:42] I wasn't aware of how much of that fear came through churches to me until I watched what happened during the pandemic and how Christians responded to vaccinations

[00:52:50] And how they were so terrified of them and I went oh, yeah like we have been given a lot of skepticism at the medical science field

[00:52:57] Yeah

[00:52:58] You know, yeah don't trust doctors, you know don't don't trust because we can't trust

[00:53:04] Trust psychologists don't trust psychologists because otherwise you learn about like how to have autonomy and agency

[00:53:11] Oh no

[00:53:11] Trust science and devil

[00:53:13] Don't just

[00:53:14] Because then you might believe that the earth is millions and billions of years old like don't we can't trust people outside of the church

[00:53:21] Or else we're gonna learn that truth, you know

[00:53:23] Yeah, you're gonna learn that you can be a ton of this and you know what the first sin of the devil

[00:53:28] God came kicked out of heaven. Maybe you just see the pride

[00:53:30] He wanted to be number one

[00:53:31] He wanted to be a ton of us and look at where it's so in an Adam and Eve ever since

[00:53:36] He wanted to be like god, and it's so interesting how much autonomy was stunned

[00:53:40] How much this idea of your a center for

[00:53:44] Trusting yourself or wanting to for wanting knowledge for wanting to

[00:53:48] Knowledge of good and evil is was the downfall of human behind apparently

[00:53:52] Women women women were the ones seeking it man

[00:53:55] That's bad. We need to just trust guys to tell us what to do now because that's seeking out knowledge as a woman

[00:54:00] Is that's that's that's part of our bad nature. It's not even us. I know Eva's my hero

[00:54:05] I'm like I too would eat the apple

[00:54:07] I would choose to eat the apple every time

[00:54:10] I will eat it with you like women together

[00:54:12] Let's eat the apple of knowledge of good evil. You know like we deserve to have knowledge and

[00:54:18] Nobody can take that away from us. Yeah, the damn apple get yes has some knowledge and and you know when we're talking about

[00:54:25] I have fest briefly internal family systems one of the things I love about it is they teach you and I was saying

[00:54:29] You know therapists are often looked down at from Christians and they're like be careful about going

[00:54:33] Go see a Christian therapist because they won't mislead you. They'll stick to the Bible

[00:54:38] Which tells you that you're born bad

[00:54:39] You don't want to have a belief that you're not born and it's truly an internal family systems

[00:54:43] They tell you your core self is good and that is one of those beliefs that it gets worked into you

[00:54:48] That you're terrible and then you're not listening to your gut on things

[00:54:51] You don't you're not embodied your just so you're dissociating is it just causes so much

[00:54:56] Trauma to work out of your system later on this belief that you can't that who you are at your core is terrible and I've heard that

[00:55:03] I have f s is

[00:55:04] Super helpful on people specifically who've gone through religious trauma. And I think that's the key right there

[00:55:08] It's that that

[00:55:09] Deep belief that who you are at your core is good and curious and all those compassion and all the good things

[00:55:15] Which is the opposite message of your desperately wicked every single

[00:55:19] Sell of your body is bent towards evil all the time wickedness. That's who you really are at your core

[00:55:24] I'm like what about?

[00:55:26] I don't know in Christians I know that are doing good and caring about oh that's just because and they have some really

[00:55:31] I don't know all kinds of weird things you end up hearing as their excuses for that but

[00:55:35] That messed with my head young too because I would look at people I knew who are lovely human beings who weren't

[00:55:39] Evangelical and I'd be like huh okay so they're gonna go to hell forever because they don't believe x y z

[00:55:46] Like I do

[00:55:47] But then these other people who will want to my beliefs and XYZ they're going to heaven because they believe the right theology

[00:55:52] But like there's more dare or crappy people compared to that one over there than for

[00:55:57] Loveing others well, doesn't make sense to me at all. I know one of my best friends still today

[00:56:04] Who's not a Christian? She's an atheist and she didn't grow up real it or she grew up Jewish but she is not religious

[00:56:10] She's just like such a kind wonderful person and as I was coming out of church

[00:56:16] I was like she is like one of the coolest nicest people that I know how is she not going to heaven? Like she would give

[00:56:23] Anybody like shirt shoes food water like whatever she had she would be like oh here have my and to watch her

[00:56:31] Be such a good human and to watch people in church be shitty people and

[00:56:38] They're going to heaven and she's not like it just doesn't make sense and this is kind of like what you were saying before that like

[00:56:44] We were taught to hold this cognitive dissonance. So yes, and so like we could hold it for a long time

[00:56:52] And at some point it's like there's too much and you kind of can't hold it any more

[00:56:55] It's like in the last thick right you stretch that thing out it could stretch way wider than most people's because this thing is

[00:57:00] Had practice and stretching but at some point it's some point it's gonna get worn down

[00:57:06] Yeah, okay, so when did it break for you? What was the break?

[00:57:09] Oh, so I'd have to go all the way into my mid-30s. I mean my marriage falling apart was definitely one of those things that

[00:57:18] You know and it's hard to be like what caused you to deconstruct right because like I said little me was deconstructing tons of things all the time

[00:57:24] Right I was holding all kinds of tensions in myself. I think you know being in a in a patriarchal church

[00:57:31] In leadership was such a contradiction that that was starting unravel my my belief of how women were taught to be in church

[00:57:37] Like I I was watching that

[00:57:40] Yeah, I was watching the ways people were responding to me. I was watching the ways women were being harmed inside of church and that was starting and I was funny

[00:57:47] When I was being treated badly I was like, ah well, I'm doing this for Jesus

[00:57:50] So it doesn't matter how people handle me as a woman like I don't care if I's not about my glory

[00:57:55] But then watch us of me more of him

[00:57:58] 100% and you're taught to do that inside of evangelicals and it's kind of to ignore even how you're being treated if it's bad

[00:58:04] Because it doesn't matter. It's not about you

[00:58:06] And then but watching I'm I'm a big strut heart not just for my little sister, but I'm a big sister in general at heart

[00:58:12] And so watching the people that I loved

[00:58:14] Being harmed in a church context and can't get into all their stories

[00:58:19] Those are their stories to share but it was almost like if I could have I were to give like out how I would explain it

[00:58:24] It would be like imagine if I was writing a book on all the different ways patriarchy can harm women in different directions

[00:58:31] These were all the closest people in my life having a different chapter in a different direction and I was watching all the

[00:58:38] Like for me it was within my marriage, but then here's another context and then here's another context and here

[00:58:43] And I was just like oh man this is awful how so I was like add odds

[00:58:47] I guess with where my church landed on women and I was starting to really be uncomfortable that only men were allowed to teach and

[00:58:52] Lead and I was just not but I was like well

[00:58:55] I could agree to disagree and still you know Christians are gonna have all kinds of differences

[00:58:59] But love is the main thing we unite around the important thing of Jesus and and so I was holding that line

[00:59:05] But I think the weight that you know was stretching that elastic out a little too far

[00:59:10] I think you know it was it was the Christians around me talking about the power of prayer and I really did believe that as a little kid and I

[00:59:17] Prade a lot and I

[00:59:19] I do I with my Bible study groups. I let up young women we would we would do prayer requests

[00:59:23] We would go around how has God been we've followed up with each other how was this thing?

[00:59:27] We've all been praying for and what is he answered and we'd highlight all the things very cognitive by it like now

[00:59:33] Looking at like this is what bias looks like like this is actually the definition of

[00:59:37] You know forming your own biases and making them back up what you think

[00:59:40] Right, you only keep the things that fit what you're what you're trying to do

[00:59:43] Which is God listens to us any answers and cares about us

[00:59:46] We weren't going around saying which ways that this all go the absolute opposite of what you've been asking this week and how

[00:59:52] Eft up is that you know like why are we praying? This is like a toss of the coin at this point right

[00:59:57] But it was you know, it was a way of building community in one sense like I see prayer now

[01:00:01] If I if I'm gonna look at it more of an opportunity of getting to know each other

[01:00:04] You know what is on your heart how do you how do I be like that's so weird when I stop praying to know because I used to always say it pray for you

[01:00:11] I was like what do I say to someone now and it's like my heart is with you. I'm holding space for you

[01:00:16] There's like all kinds of terminology I've been using now is like it's a way to just share what's heavy on you and to just hold each other

[01:00:23] It just in that tension of it right like

[01:00:25] Yeah, I think so I started people around me were saying you know God doesn't want you to divorce right

[01:00:30] So like pray and God will transform your marriage like trust and

[01:00:34] I did that I prayed with my mentor every day on my way into work

[01:00:38] We would have a call in the morning and we would pray for and while I separated and I was separated for a few years before I ended up divorced

[01:00:44] And I did ask for the divorce. It wasn't me so like that's how my

[01:00:49] My prayers got answered and and I look at this maybe there is a god you know

[01:00:54] I had that moment of like you know if I was God watching me

[01:00:57] I would be like you don't see this as an answer to prayer

[01:01:00] You need this you really do you know and if I were to have a conversation with my ex

[01:01:07] That's probably what I would say it would be like thank you for pulling the trigger on that relationship

[01:01:11] I did not have it in my heart to do that

[01:01:14] It was a struggle for me

[01:01:16] But I had gotten to the point of accepting that if he made that call, I would accept it like if he asked for divorce

[01:01:21] I wasn't gonna hold him hold him back

[01:01:23] You know if he said he wanted one I wasn't gonna go like a so fight trying change his mind

[01:01:27] You know if he threatened divorce which happened when he didn't like how things were going

[01:01:31] I was like I'm gonna divorce you

[01:01:32] So it's like always trying to beg him and plead to no please can work on things

[01:01:36] I'll change my opinions to fit more with what you want, you know

[01:01:40] And at some point it was like no I think I think I need to be able to just let it go

[01:01:45] That's what I need to do and it was hard but that was one of those things where it was like this was the thing

[01:01:51] That I thought God wanted was me to extend my marriage and it was the thing I prayed for

[01:01:57] And it felt like it was gone like the relationship with God felt like it kind of evaporated at that point

[01:02:03] Like through my whole life and you know, for anyone listening

[01:02:07] I don't know he know you probably some of Angelophils and the non ones will will know where I'm coming from

[01:02:12] Easier but for the Evangelicals you know like I would for me that walk with God was

[01:02:17] My good buddy like I talked to him all the time and that was my best how would tell people Jesus my best friend

[01:02:23] And I meant that but it felt and people might feel sad for me, but it felt like

[01:02:28] You know you're kidding you have an imaginary friend or you believe in Santa or something and then one day you stop

[01:02:33] And it's like you wish you still could go back to that you know you you try and go or even

[01:02:39] I used to play with Barbies and I remember when I stopped playing because it didn't work anymore

[01:02:43] Like I couldn't even get into the headspace to enjoy doing the make-believe way I used to anywhere

[01:02:47] My imagination kind of broken some ways I guess

[01:02:50] I feel like that's it. I feel like a lot of that just kind of broke and then I couldn't no matter how much

[01:02:56] I would have wanted to imagine myself in that again

[01:02:59] Just it felt like talking to an imaginary friend you stopped believing in and

[01:03:04] It didn't feel like a decision I made it didn't feel like I was like oh I'm angry at you God. No, it was like oh

[01:03:10] That just doesn't make sense to me anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that

[01:03:15] So much and like I have also thought about the Santa Claus connection like and I don't say that to like

[01:03:22] You know make it to like be little this idea in any way. It's like

[01:03:26] It was something that you believed in and it doesn't matter if it is real or not

[01:03:31] The fact that you believed in it made it real to you. Yeah, so to lose it is like

[01:03:37] It's a loss. It's a loss. Yeah, and like there is so much grief in that

[01:03:43] Yeah, yeah, I often I like having this conversation with with people who were evangelical I was like okay

[01:03:48] Did losing your faith feel like the bottom fell out for you or this guy opened up? That's a question

[01:03:55] I love to ask people because that's such a good question because like for some people it feels like their foundation has been pulled out from

[01:04:01] Under them and everything that made them feel secure is gone and it's their scared and it's all balancing and for other people

[01:04:07] It's like your world just opened up and you're free finally and in my my husband and I have opposite ones

[01:04:13] Like he's much more like the sky opened up and I'm more like the ground fell out and I think some of that too

[01:04:19] I have to do what your environment how much of it was control over you and wasn't you putting the parameters there

[01:04:24] I think those of us who self-inducting

[01:04:26] Mind feel like that was the ground underneath this more than anything

[01:04:29] Whereas for people where that your environment your parents you had a lot of

[01:04:34] Just structured around you that you had no input into, you know that was kept trying to push you back all the time

[01:04:39] It feels more like the sky's opening up, you know like

[01:04:43] Yeah, yeah, so I'm like thinking for myself now. It feels like

[01:04:47] You've been a bit of both for some people too. Yeah, I think at first it felt like the the ground just like

[01:04:53] Fell out from under me and it was like I'm falling into this abyss

[01:04:57] But then like you just fall for a long time like you fall for so long that then you're like hey

[01:05:02] This guy's open to you know and you're like oh, there's a lot of space that I can explore now

[01:05:08] And I think like now I feel like it's opened up so much but at the beginning it really felt like this huge loss

[01:05:15] Like then the bottom fell out. Yeah, and actually described how I feel too very well

[01:05:20] What you what you said about how eventually because it did feel like the bottom fell out

[01:05:24] But it doesn't feel like that anymore. Maybe this could be inspiring to anyone listening who's in hour

[01:05:28] You know in those early stages of deconstruction where everything that you believe just feels like you're losing

[01:05:33] You keep losing more and more and you don't feel like you're gaining eventually you do start to feel like you're gaining and then like

[01:05:39] I could tell I could make a huge long list of all things I've gained since but like

[01:05:44] That's what I was gonna ask you. What are some things that you've gained like what has opened up for you?

[01:05:48] What feels more freeing now? I have gained

[01:05:51] I have gained the ability to feel okay in meeting when I have a problem with someone or

[01:05:57] Like because I I really did believe loving meant you forgive Jesus forgive us of every single thing

[01:06:01] Then we had to let go of everything everyone else ever did nonstop like always had to be forgiving and

[01:06:08] That makes sense in certain environments

[01:06:10] I think the turnier other cheek of an interesting one in the sense if it's your pride that's hurt

[01:06:13] But like you know someone said something that just hurt your ego a little that's one thing

[01:06:17] But then I think of abuse and how that that's weaponized forgiveness is weaponized hands people and having come out of the first book

[01:06:24] I ever read as a child can you like first adult book I ever picked up was there was these Christian bookstore

[01:06:30] Magazine you can buy Christian books and I bought one on forgiveness and I wanted to learn

[01:06:36] It's so sad right because I bought such an abusive home that it was like my heart breaks for a little girl

[01:06:42] How do I forgive this woman who was so cruel to us and like I think you know

[01:06:46] Having to had to learn young who's safe and not safe. I'd always have an instinct in me

[01:06:51] That would say be care around this person and actually don't go back to this person because they are dangerous

[01:06:56] Or they're you know they've abused or they've harmed these are people you need to stay away from where is the Christian message was

[01:07:02] Whatever you've done as far as the east is from the west I've removed that you don't think about it

[01:07:06] You don't hold that in your heart if someone did something better damaging to you need to let it go completely and I think

[01:07:12] There was a piece of make the cognitive dissonance again stretching out right because there's a piece of me

[01:07:16] That didn't make sense. I would still keep track of that person is kind of questionable

[01:07:20] But then it would conflict with the Christian part of me that's like I'm not allowed to admit to myself that actually do

[01:07:25] Do put a boundaries or you know, I didn't have words for that but now I'm like I'm happy about that

[01:07:30] The boundaries I'm allowed to put I'm okay with saying I don't feel comfortable around someone

[01:07:35] I'm okay with saying that I don't feel someone is healthier safe for me. Those are things like

[01:07:40] I mean if I'm gonna use much more simplistic terms

[01:07:43] I feel comfortable with hate I feel comfortable with anger. I feel comfortable with unforgiveness

[01:07:48] Being petty all of that, but I think it's not just petty. It's not just frivolous things

[01:07:53] I think overall it's the bigger it's the bigger strands of

[01:07:55] No, I could hate when someone is really harmful to someone else like I could hate that deeply. Yes. Yeah, it's like it

[01:08:02] It gives you permission now to like call it what it is and hold that person or

[01:08:09] System or whatever accountable yeah for for what it is and not to be like well, it's okay because

[01:08:16] Jesus died and

[01:08:18] X Y Z so now I forgive you. It's like no that was wrong like it hurt me it hurt other people and like you're allowed to say that

[01:08:25] That is healthy to say and and yes and while people can change and I have changed and my whole journey is one of change

[01:08:31] Churches do attract people who are abusive in part because the change narrative is so glorified in the sense of like the beauty and the

[01:08:38] B story right they were the worst the slick of Paul was the worst the slick anyone who's terribly abusive and murders and kills someone like David's a man after

[01:08:45] God home God's own heart after raping someone like it ends up

[01:08:49] These end up your models so like having people in positions of leadership who've done terrible things

[01:08:54] Instead of looking at the data which is like your chances of recidicism in certain fields are high and you shouldn't never be

[01:09:00] Probably put back and leadership with you done XYZ in the church it was like predators knew like

[01:09:05] You say the right things about confessing your sins and this community has to let it all go because that's what they like

[01:09:11] And and these become testimonies powerful testimonies of God's power if you've done something

[01:09:17] Attrocious those are the best stories because they're like a prodigal son kind of story where like

[01:09:22] They take someone who's so lost and bring them into the fold or whatever yeah

[01:09:26] Like elevating stories of just twistedness into like being transformed and and there's some power to being like yes

[01:09:33] We can change this people but then there's just some common sense that's like just thrown out the window and that whole

[01:09:39] Concept of like

[01:09:39] Evaluating people and and recognizing what's healthy and what's not healthy and putting up boundaries and like

[01:09:45] Even the idea of change like if someone has changed then you could evaluate that and they could say on the sidelines

[01:09:50] And you could watch an observed for a while before coming to that conclusion that it's actual change and if somebody's changed like I often think like when it comes to healthy

[01:09:58] Sort of forgiveness if I feel bad for something I've done and I asked somebody for forgiveness

[01:10:03] I think if I am actually in a good place in my heart

[01:10:06] They don't need to restore relationship with me for that to be like if they choose to never talk to me again

[01:10:11] I don't have to be annoyed at that. I'm not entitled to their relationship

[01:10:15] Bringing restored in my life if I've done some damage that's caused them discomfort like

[01:10:20] Accepting that you can break a relationship and damage something beyond repair sometimes and that someone wants to move on from you is a healthy sign of change is

[01:10:29] Letting people have that autonomy to move move on from you

[01:10:32] You don't you don't you don't know old forget like people who are demanding of it and then churches

[01:10:37] It's often demanded to me. That's like a red flag of a

[01:10:40] And that's yeah, that weaponizes forgiveness. So freedom to set boundaries freedom to not forgive freedom to be like no

[01:10:47] I'm not bringing that person back in my life and I'm not okay with that

[01:10:50] Going no contact with people right like that would be falling under that category a lot of Christians would feel very

[01:10:56] Incomfortable cutting someone off but a lot of us who've gone through having

[01:11:00] So much mental health damage to keeping people in our lives have had to some people

[01:11:04] I know if had to go and all contact with parents with people that were dear to them in order to preserve their mental health and

[01:11:09] That's okay. I have freedom to be silly. I have freedom to be joyful

[01:11:16] I have freedom to care about my own pleasure my own happiness

[01:11:19] I have freedom to to get joy in little things like I think as a Christian that weight of

[01:11:26] Salvation and how the most important thing was a turnity in saving people everything else

[01:11:30] Pailed in comparison to that so the heaviness that I walked around with in life

[01:11:34] If I was enjoying just a silly TV show or something fun or a sunset it was like

[01:11:39] This is distracting me from the bigger things that God wants me to be full seeing this trying to just trip me up and get me side

[01:11:45] Track with all these silly little things and as a usually to I remember teaching this and my heart breaks for it

[01:11:50] But like how much time did you spend watching TV this week? First is how much time did you spend praying in your Bible

[01:11:55] Like this weighing out of like where did you spend all your time and oh this is proof you're not loving God enough

[01:12:01] So you gotta just be constantly

[01:12:02] grinding for

[01:12:03] This sounds dirty

[01:12:05] And it just constantly

[01:12:07] I don't know how any couple of podcasts

[01:12:10] Shout out just got in first go

[01:12:13] Yeah, you know you just had to be constantly just so heavy with the weight of all of these eternal things and it made me

[01:12:20] Serious and it made that like I said that part of my personality that was so weighted with the big things just staying in the forefront

[01:12:27] I enjoy that the playful side of me realizes it's healthy to not be that all the time

[01:12:32] In fact, that should be maybe the smaller side of me and I'm social justice oriented some constantly following politics and

[01:12:39] Constantly following injustice in the rhyme always drawn to talking and thinking through those things

[01:12:43] But man when I'm allowing my playful goofy side to come up and to just have fun

[01:12:49] I realized that's such a healthy thing and I wasn't allowed to and that was not acceptable

[01:12:53] That piece of me wasn't free and it's so cordu-I am and it's probably the biggest piece of who I am

[01:12:58] But it's not used to using its voice too loud

[01:13:00] It doesn't come up for too long before it's like okay, I'm picking up too much space. You know

[01:13:04] What are some ways that you fully embrace your playfulness and kind of let it shine now?

[01:13:10] And then and then I'll wrap up with our encouragement question. Okay, um, I would say my husband is been

[01:13:16] I'm remarried to Nate who you'll have I think on your podcast as well

[01:13:20] Yeah, we're here next week. Yeah, we podcast together where you were on our podcast on full mutuality and

[01:13:26] He has been

[01:13:28] Such a good

[01:13:29] He's been so healing in my life. So so so healing in my life. He's playful and he's fun

[01:13:34] And I think I was missing that in my 20 year marriage like I was missing a spell that I could laugh with and joke around with and be light-hearted with

[01:13:43] Like we could be in the middle of a really serious conversation and just

[01:13:47] Crack a joke and start laughing about something or we could be in the middle of sex and crack a joke and start laughing about something

[01:13:53] Or we can be in the middle of crying and having it and then he could crack a like

[01:13:57] Humor can just come in any absolutely anywhere. He's playful with me all the time and it's so refreshing

[01:14:03] He brings out the piece like he allows the piece of me that's most genuine to flourish in our relationship

[01:14:09] Because he's just got such a fun playful side to him and he's also he has a depth to him too

[01:14:14] So it's fun like I feel like all the pieces of me fit really well with him

[01:14:18] Whereas before the humor side of me like I remember being told like by my ex, you know

[01:14:24] Gail that's really crude humor. That's really wrong. You should go share that with your other friend who appreciates that kind of humor

[01:14:30] But I don't appreciate that kind of like it just being chastised for like being inappropriate in my humor

[01:14:35] We welcome it all here and it could go toe to toe with me on being immature and

[01:14:40] dumb and like we each have our 16 year old childish versions of ourselves that come out and we

[01:14:46] Into each other for all of that and encourage it with each other and just I don't that relaxed

[01:14:52] Ability me to just let my guard down and have fun that's that's definitely something he brings out of me that I cherish that I appreciate

[01:15:00] I love that well okay

[01:15:02] To wrap up our episode can you offer some encouragement to the deconstruction community and maybe two people who are

[01:15:11] Feeling stuck in their marriage and and wanting to get out whether it's for abuse or just because they

[01:15:18] Feel like it's time and they're like ready to be happy somewhere else and and maybe this is all kind of wrapped up in

[01:15:26] Deconstructing you know people have moved on and it's hard to know where to go from there. So

[01:15:31] Could you offer some advice to people out there in that situation? Oh, I have so many pieces of advice

[01:15:37] I don't know how to wrap it all up so thankfully. I'll do my best for one thing

[01:15:41] I would say that you know one of the good things for me was on one hand

[01:15:45] I put in all the work that I could to realize it wasn't gonna change and so I don't have any like questions about that

[01:15:52] So if you feel like you've been spinning your wills for a long time and wasting your time

[01:15:56] Maybe that's what you have as a gift as you know that you did you did so much to try and and see if this could work

[01:16:02] You know the flip side to that is I really do think I spent way too much time in that and I

[01:16:08] I would encourage people not to buy into the sunk cost policy which is like and I really felt like I'd in about 20 years

[01:16:13] We're together since I was 14 like in high school sweetheart's we did all that. I was like

[01:16:19] No, this was supposed to last and like I actually believed my life was over and then I was never gonna find love again

[01:16:25] And it was I had done I had my kids

[01:16:27] I got married into the whole thing what was left in my life in my future

[01:16:30] It kind of felt like life was over in many ways and I feel like some women who especially come from evangelical

[01:16:36] Fundamentalism will only been with that one person their entire life

[01:16:40] You've never imagined and you've never wanted anything outside of that it could be terrifying in life

[01:16:44] Your life is over when if that comes to a halt and the best stuff could be on the other side

[01:16:49] It has been for me on the other side of that the like stuff I couldn't imagine and

[01:16:54] I still can't put words to how healing it is to be loved well for the first time in my life

[01:16:59] It blows my mind all the time. I look at him constantly and I just smile and I'm getting

[01:17:03] I'm like a little kid that's like I get to be with this person and he's lovely and I enjoy being around him

[01:17:08] I enjoy being around him all the time now. We're still long distance

[01:17:11] Been long distance for six years and long distance married for one year as we're working out our paperwork

[01:17:15] So that might that might change when we see each other's phase every day

[01:17:18] I hope we don't lose that

[01:17:19] I really like I strive to hold on to that joy of just enjoying each other but being loved well is a lovely thing

[01:17:25] Being with someone who cares about you

[01:17:27] I would tell people don't don't assume it's over for you

[01:17:30] You know grief you need to be sad over what you're losing and what you've lost and what you imagined

[01:17:35] Letting go of the dreams that you had for that relationship all of that is legit

[01:17:38] There's a process to go with be patient with yourself. I found

[01:17:42] Divorce support groups to be a part of that where people coming also come deconstructing at the same time

[01:17:47] So that was super helpful to just know that I wasn't alone

[01:17:50] To have support in that fine fine support find it wherever you can find and I know it might not be in your church

[01:17:56] Probably it's gonna be in there and there's a lot of grieving

[01:18:00] There's a lot more grieving than then people realize and letting go of a marriage because it's your letting go of a family too, right?

[01:18:05] You're letting go of their family your letting go of mutual friends. It's

[01:18:09] You lose a lot but there are so much to be gained on the other and things I smoke my first speaking to someone who's similar

[01:18:15] Struggling right now. I'd be like it's not for you

[01:18:17] It is the best is yet to come and I know oh gosh

[01:18:21] I just said that and I could hear Nate just cringing because that's what Brian Houston from hell song

[01:18:25] He used to say the best is yet to come sorry sorry I'll leave some others who are really recovering from

[01:18:30] Hell song yeah, but like in and I can't guarantee there's no promises that always it's gonna be brighter on the other side

[01:18:37] But you don't need to suffer you don't need to be and you don't need to shame

[01:18:42] You don't need the label failure attached to recognizing something is not working and moving on is a

[01:18:48] Naked of bravery and I give my x credit for that for being the one willing to let go when I couldn't like

[01:18:53] There was something beautiful about being able to do that for someone else and and maybe the person that's doing the letting go

[01:18:59] Finds it hard because the other ones not at the same places you they're not wanting to let go and I look back at that and go

[01:19:04] I'm glad my x did that. I'm really really thankful that he did that like is that me free to tell it's a little better

[01:19:10] Better life a new life, but like yeah

[01:19:13] I would say that to you like the guilt the shame all of that

[01:19:16] You don't need to live with that, you know, and we're all growing we're all learning we all make mistakes

[01:19:20] We've all been taught that we ended up where you are because a lot of people pointed you in that direction

[01:19:25] Set you up for this scenario is your in and it's not to say your victim

[01:19:28] You are taking responsibility for yourself. You do get to set your own autonomy and trajectory going forward

[01:19:33] But that's in front of you too. You get to pick those decisions and

[01:19:37] Yeah, find reach out to people and find support for yourself and there's good. There's good in your future

[01:19:43] I mean that I've lived it so I hope that could be encouraging to someone else

[01:19:47] Thank you, Gail, and where can listeners find

[01:19:50] You and Nate and listen to you and you're wonderful vibe together on full mutuality

[01:19:56] Yeah, we're can listeners connect with you. Yeah, so if you go to

[01:20:00] Don't let's dot fm don't miss FM

[01:20:03] Yeah, don't let that FM yeah

[01:20:05] You can find us dot fm

[01:20:06] Yes, you can find our podcast for each other. You can find this podcast on there

[01:20:11] You can find a whole bunch of others of your deconstructing and you're like devouring material

[01:20:15] So much good stuff out there

[01:20:17] And I know there are other networks that exist too and they're go find go find lots of support

[01:20:22] But yeah, we're full mutuality as hours that Nate and I run together

[01:20:26] I'm not super active on Instagram. I try to pretend I'm younger than I am once in a while

[01:20:30] I'm like my kid generation is Instagram. I'm like elder millennial

[01:20:34] So like with the gen Xers

[01:20:35] You know on Facebook still but like then you got the ones below below the millennials that are all on tick talk

[01:20:40] So yeah, there's just so funny you could find out where people are just

[01:20:43] Where which which which which fear they're in in social media

[01:20:47] I end up doing a lot more of my own posting on full mutuality on Facebook and that's where I interact a lot more with people

[01:20:53] But we podcast together when when we when we're feeling it

[01:20:58] We used to do a little more regularly. We've been a little more distantly, but we still enjoy

[01:21:02] We had so much fun having you back on and hearing your story and yeah, you guys all are so used to hearing

[01:21:09] Hearing her interview Maggie interview everyone else

[01:21:11] But if you want to hear us turn the tables on her and hear her story come come over to our podcast and listen

[01:21:17] Yes, you should go listen to that episode. It was so fun to be it was so fun to be on your podcast

[01:21:22] And my sister just listened to it and she was like oh my god

[01:21:25] I love I love them. They have such a nice vibe

[01:21:28] She was like wow Nate seems so chill so cool so like just to confirm all of the

[01:21:33] All of the nice like wonderful things that you've said about him and you're vibe together

[01:21:37] It's like that totally comes through in the podcast and and like I felt that as as I was being interviewed by both of you

[01:21:44] And so go listen to their podcast. It's really fun and wonderful and they have a lot of fun episodes

[01:21:50] So um, okay, well, thank you for being here gal. Thanks. Thanks for having me

[01:21:55] Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists

[01:21:59] If you enjoyed this episode or any others please follow subscribe rate or review the podcast for every you listen

[01:22:05] And if you can share this episode with a friend who might enjoy the conversation as well

[01:22:10] Don't forget that you can join the conversation in the don'tless media collective discord server by clicking the link in the show notes or

[01:22:17] heading to dotless.fm and clicking the link in the top panel

[01:22:21] As always, you can find me over on Instagram at hello underscore deconstructionists

[01:22:26] We're together we are building community after evangelicalism one story at a time

[01:22:32] Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast and when this sweet little buff

[01:22:37] inevitably gets stuck in your head. I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you

[01:22:43] Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us and of course to you for listening see you next time