S2 E6: Revengelicalism with Janice Lagata

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a Donless Media Collective Podcast, visit dotless.fm for more content.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: No the rude thing is that we were all just living our lives and then at some point somebody came along and said,

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey you're wicked! You are depraved and you need to save your like I'm eight!

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: What did I do? Like that's the main thing, there's nothing meaner than evangelicalism.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Miki C-O-N-S-T-R-U-C-T, got a deconstruct.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast where we'll collectively share

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and confident in ourselves. I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and most of all that you are not alone on this journey, you are good, you are loved and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello Deconstructionists!

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_00]: My guest today is Janice Lagata who uses she her pronouns. Janice is a writer, musician and matron saint of cats

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_00]: who is passionate about using humor to tell the truth about heavy things.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Her work consistently laces themes of race, religion and gender with threads of witty word play and hopeful skepticism.

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_00]: In her capacity as an ex-fandellical person, she is known for being a vocal critic of evangelical mega-church culture in general

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and the Hillsong brand specifically because she believes almost everyone involved deserves better.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for being here, Janice.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me, absolutely.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you write that witty little bio?

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I did.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Sometime ago there's a few different versions in rotation.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So when people say they pulled it up, I never know which one is going to be and then I'm always like,

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: is it still true?

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Does I know my, that's a good bio.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it all true? Do you want to make any corrections?

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: The only correction I would make at this point is that I don't.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I am still ex-pandellical but I'm going to step further and I've created my own religion so I am revengellical which is a branch of ex-pandellicalism

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_02]: but whenever I wrote that bio, that didn't exist yet so.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I love it.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to ask you later about being revengellical in what that means.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So hold it and don't lose it. Don't change your religions between now and that.

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And like an evangelical pastor, I have no idea what it is or what it's about like.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what it means to deconstruct.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so I pulled this bio off the content warning page which is coming up in February in Atlanta, Georgia.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And I have never been to content warning but Janice has and Janice is one of the, one of the many wonderful collaborators who will be there talking sharing.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm excited to go to see what this event is about. Janice could you tell us a little bit about it since you have been and have been a collaborator in the past.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so there are not a bunch. There are a couple of ex-pandellical kind of events that have you know popped up and started occurring regularly over the past four, four to five years.

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And this is the only one I have participated in in part of the appeal for me even before I went was you know who was organizing it

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_02]: and kind of there they're outlook on things because part of my ex-pandellicalism part of my being in this space.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And especially over the last last year definitely but let's say last two years has been my growing frustration with.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And fears about us just kind of recreating what we came out of and just you know making making new church events, but it's different now because now we're in charge.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of the weir who are in charge is still the straight white men and you know still platforming their straight white men friends.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: And just kind of carrying forth that same demographic spirit of demographic.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so content morning is different because of who's organizing it so it's not this is not brought to you by a straight white man and then they're outlook on like it's not there's no speakers right there's no there's no keynote there's no there's no there's no pastor there's no there's no sermon right right it's panels of diverse people with their diverse experiences talking about diverse things.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And so for me it was just a really really cool opportunity even if like you're like I do not want to it's too reminiscent of the conference circuit and I don't want that right come.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Skip the conference right don't even come to the event and just come to meet the people you've only seen online and to hang out with them afterwards and you know and all the looks and crannies in between whatever is going on at the actual content.

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Morning event like if for nothing else just again the opportunity to get to meet and hang out with people who you've only seen overscreens and you know double tap and on their post.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it's just just a great opportunity to actually kind of test drive this community we're building.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah cool well I'm really excited I am I'm hoping to go and yeah as I look at the look at the collaborators on the website it's just like such a diverse group of people queer people trans people sex workers black people Hispanic like so many just like a lot of really beautiful wonderful people who are not platformed.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm excited to go I'm excited to be in a space that feels different than church.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I was getting very nervous about going to these kind of group events that has a potential to feel very churchy and a step out for me not not because like this space makes me nervous but because like.

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_00]: It's true that in this space people are still platforming white straight white men all the time and we are all our muscle memory is to listen to them and to trust them.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And their muscle memory is to speak with confidence and to use their experience to tell other people about what to do and how to do it and so it takes you know actively.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Making a conscious choice to change that to be able to listen to other people or to quiet your own voice if if you are straight white man.

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So yeah I'm excited to go and see what it's about so thanks for sharing yeah yeah and like and we can't.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: We are who we are we came from where we came from and we do have that muscle memory so like it's not.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not anti conference circuit right like it's not completely different because we only only know when we know and we only know how to you know build things the way we're taught.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And so like we also need people to come because we need people to be like oh no this is this is too churchy and here's how you know you guys can fix this how we can make it better.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and and to also come along and be like oh okay not everything about church is just automatically bad right like they're there were good parts to it and there are some things just about gathering together and you know.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: As a group hearing again there are no sermons but like listening to people speak and think through things and you know talk about things like that's not an inherently bad thing it's not inherently bad form.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so like sometimes I think we have to we have to kind of open ourselves up and put ourselves in these situations that can be reminiscent and where we can be a little bit triggered.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: To either be like oh this was too triggering and this is how we can fix this for the next group of people so they don't feel this or to be like oh okay this isn't this isn't what I thought it was going to be.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Or it's not actually the format that triggered me it was the content or it was you know that person or whatever and to be able to kind of get over some of those internal hurdles that we have because.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_00]: We have a new experience now like oh okay I can start.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Thankful that we have this online space where we can do this and since starting the podcast I've been able to like see people and talk to them face to face like on a screen face to face but yeah is I was thinking the other day how you know when you're a kid people are like don't talk to strangers on the internet.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I like do that a lot now.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Like my main hobby is talking to strangers on the internet and I love it and I'm excited to like see people's real faces so yeah and it was one of the good things about church so I'm happy if we can bring that bring that into this face to.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah open it okay can we dive into your story.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh god.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no thank you next time.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: See later bye.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay well we'll rewind all the way back to baby Janice what kind of church did what kind of church did you grow up in what were you born into what was your flavor of church Christianity evangelicalism as a kid.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so I I have no childhood memory of ever going to church for the first time right because I was just there.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: The very very very first church memory I have probably four or five maybe and I remember being afraid of this particular worship leader.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: He had a binoism so he was a bino and black and I remember thinking he was Satan because I like I had been.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Dipped in enough religion and enough spirituality to know that like Satan was beautiful and so like I just thought this man was like just so different looking that oh I think I think that's the devil.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So because he was so beautiful yeah okay yeah so and I was made of like four or five so like I had enough I had been like as a dipped in enough evangelicalism already by that point to like.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Have this theology and like have this have this very real fear so I was born in to California and I was born in the LA area and then from like one to I think I was six when we moved.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So like one to six was in living in like orange county and then we moved out to the inland empire so Riverside and then we joined as far as I can remember like it was the first church.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm on visited and joined because that's the only church I remember like all throughout the rest of my childhood okay so he joined this little non-denominational.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And now like I know it was like oh it was non-denominational because they didn't want to pay the fees but it actually came out of the OG and was a very.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_02]: OG church and so it was originally passed by this black couple when I was maybe 1314 the man.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Pastor had an affair with the church secretary you know tell us all the time yeah and that's a little foreshadowing for your later experience.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Spoiler alert spoiler alert Carl and Tad in a fair.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_02]: So he had an affair and then left left his wife left the church to his credit before he left he did do this like whole series about how women can be leaders and can be senior pastors so he turned the church over to his.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Now it's wife and so for the rest of my time in California that was my senior pastor okay was a black woman.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Right we did one thing right.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Did so I grew up under the leadership of a black woman okay in this non-denominational pinnacle style very charismatic very very.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm concerned with spiritual things and prophecy and all that kind of stuff it's it's weird to like talk about my background because people hear that and they're like oh okay so.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Put her in the grew up in a black church box and I'm like ah that's so fast because it was a black woman but it was very very white theology okay and like and if you look at.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess that came out of the a.g. and you know my pastors spiritual parents right the people who were guides and the people she was passing on to us were people like Kenneth Copeland and you know can't have a gain and Carol Cartwright like some people are going to hear these names and be extremely triggered but like again it was just as very.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: old white man theology so it had a black face on it but I did not I didn't grow up in a black church.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Was the congregation mostly black or was it diverse was it mostly white what was the so it was pretty diverse okay like looking back if I had to do stats probably have been about 60% black people and then the other 40% would have been a mix of.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_00]: white and Latino okay but it's not like being in this church you felt even aside from the white theology being in the church it's not like you felt connected to this community of other black people is that right so I and it was.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very small church like when before before the man pastor left maybe we were a bigger church then so maybe about 350 to 500 people on the books and then maybe maybe 200 who were showing up every Sunday okay I remember I remember like our little sanctuary being being full.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then after he left and over the years it just kept dwindling and dwindling it's like we had this huge church building but you probably only had.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know I'm I'm the worst at estimating numbers like once it gets above like 11.

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like it could have been 12 people or 300 I can't I can't say for sure I'm a teacher so I can be like I know there's about 20 kids in my classroom that's about what I can count I'm like yeah there are 20 of them.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And beyond that I got.

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so I don't know I think I'll be generous and say we had 75 like kind of regular people okay so really small small little group.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Very small and very it was you know babies babies first coat right and you don't know when you're in it but yeah and so like the people these people who I grew up with a lot of them.

[00:16:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But we spent a lot of time with kind of and even to say like outside the church there wasn't much time outside the church because we were like always always there.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I had had this community of people and most of them 80% of the people I was around like all the time were were black but it's like it's just weird to talk about now because then like you just have so much more context as an adult right and kind of looking at these people.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: As as adults they are kid like you don't have a cot like you think these people know everything right and they've been through everything and they're making the right decisions and they're you know they're right and then then you get old and you're like oh they know what they were doing we don't know anything.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And they too we're just making it up as they went along and we're you know looks like my mom right like I'm looking at her and we were learning the same thing that the same time like.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: You were here in the sermon the same time I was hearing it for the first time and like you trying to put this stuff into practice on me but we're all we were all crazy.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you like it at the time like do you have fond memories or or at the time were you like getting out.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I like that I didn't know anything else right like this is this is what you do and this is where you go and these are just my church family and this is this is how we do church.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have anything to compare it to until I left and went to the old song right and then.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: You know.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Flying pan fire which is with I don't know but.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Six and one half doesn't have the other we don't know.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know hard to find.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay so what happened when you left home how did you end up at Hillsong.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I I graduated from high school didn't really know well that's not true I knew what I wanted to do but it wasn't wasn't practical.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like I need to study to be something something real right can't be can't be a musician can you know so and and also like knowing knowing that I was smart and felt like.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: It would be a waste kind of so I do have to you have to be something real.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went to school and I think I think I said I was going to be a lawyer but I.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just really I'm really bad with following through if I can't like if I can't see the end if I can't grasp you know if it's not real to me that I'll let it go.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So I went to college and then thing up board that was I got to work and so then I would go to work and then get bored that I'm going maybe now I know what I want to do and now I'll go back to school.

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So I spent a couple of years just like going going back and forth got to work get tired of that go to school.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Flunk out go back to work you know doing that and then there were a few women from my church who had gone to New Zealand when I was like 16 or 17 and they had come back with this new.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: No song music so we had started using like you know shout to the Lord like the old old school the original darling check kind of kind of stuff and so I liked I like that music and so in one of my.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Work phases where I think it's time to go back to school.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I had to run across I think Hillsong this came to mind and I wasn't even planning to go to the school but I was like, oh I wonder if they do any conferences over here so I was looking up just to see if they did conferences and at that time they didn't my stepdad had been going to saddleback church.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay for a few years and saddleback had like this this big creative conference every year at that time and like darling check it come, they come to that.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I think that was what put in in my mind like oh like maybe.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh these people come over here sometimes like maybe they do something here so I'm looking to see like do they have a conference or something I could go to here and they didn't at that time but then that's when I found out oh they have a college all like oh that's that's an Australian that's crazy.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But like I did just wouldn't leave me alone so I said okay I'll ask my mom about it and when she's like no then that'll be that'll be like no I try.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'd say no yeah so I remember I brought it up to her and she was like washing dishes one day and like oh you know thinking about going back to school again but I think I'm on so it Hillsong as like this Bible college.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So she just sitting there and she was like yeah that sounds good.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: What that's not how this was supposed to go but you're fine with it.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: That's like okay I guess I guess that's what I'm doing so the plan was just to go for a year and then you know get some pickups and tips and tricks from you know some of the best to do it at the time and then come back and be a better little worship leader at my little church in California.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Where I was sure you know I would live and die and that would be that would be my life so headed up to Australia and then yeah ended up staying there four and a half years and never never going back to my little California church.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What was your time in Australia like much like my time at my old church right like good and bad and it's part of my life story.

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know what I can't remember what I expected going there.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I remember getting there and like immediately immediately being like struck with how disorganized Hillsong was okay.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Like they didn't pick me up from the airport on time like they're supposed to send the shuttle to come and get us like that was that was unclear.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, then I had put in you know all these things that they ask you well how much because they didn't have dorms or anything so like they're just like renting houses and putting people on housing owner okay like what did your budget.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: You know how much you spend will find we'll have a place for you you know all of that so they picked didn't pick me up on time so the airport for a couple hours and they came got me and then they're like oh yeah we don't actually have a place for you yet.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So to live.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Right right so they just threw me in with some other students so I was sleeping on their floor for I don't I don't even remember how long but like good and bad right like those became my first friends right these are the first people on that and these were you know still to this day you know these these were my people.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And then when they did find me a place it was like I can't remember like let's say I was like I can pay fifty dollars a week for housing now great we found a place for you it's 200 a week.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So then like immediately just like thrust into this financial hardship because like yeah some people did come were sent by their churches or you know were sent by their rich parents and their rich family.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_02]: You know a surprising number of or maybe not surprising number of Hillsong college students were we're troubled people right who their parents were like.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_02]: But the book camp or this right so so you know so they they just were in different financial situations but some of us were like we raised money to come here and we're like just trying to get by and they're like you know this three times your budget that's fine though right well so.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Good luck God will provide so so just stuff like that words like oh this place you know what God will provide right and he will he will take care of me I'm here now so here we go.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And then Australia is is beautiful and wonderful and like you're just you're just way out of your element in all the best and and the worst ways and so like life at Hillsong was the best of times and the worst of times all the time.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah did you get to like experience Australia and like like did you also feel like you were traveling or like living somewhere else or was it like you eat sleep breathe Hillsong.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I was there long enough to where I did you get sick of Hillsong and you're like.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I need to go live my life as well as a luckily one of my friends my best friend there she was Australian and so like I ended up living with her and her family and then you know they would travel and go to Brisbane and like take me on their family trips and so like like thanks to them like I actually like got out and got to see different places but also like.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Your hardcore Hillsong and like even when we go visit their family elsewhere wasn't Hillsong but still another church so like still like the bubble expanded but still very much in this Christ centered bubble.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Amen.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay so then you're there for like four years four and a half years and then you come back to the states is that when you moved to New York and got settled into Hillsong New York.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes but not I didn't know like I was crazy and I feel song free but I wasn't that crazy and not that much of it was long free okay so I wanted the friends that I made in Australia was from New York and I'd come to visit her like a year before I was leaving Australia and just just love New York and I was like oh okay.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that I can't go back to California because I can't be in California and not be at my old church and it's not being issue and I know I can't go back to the old church.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Why at this point did you know you couldn't go back to your old church?

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I just wouldn't have been able to stand like my old church started at started at 10 for a lot of years 10 am on a Sunday when it ended.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: No way to know like the Holy Spirit's gonna move and you you better be there how the panic hostiles get you yeah yeah and then like knowing that and trying to kind of give people some of their day back.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a point where they're like we're gonna switch and we're gonna start having services in nine so you guys will get out earlier and we were like no this is a lie like it's never happened we just.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You just tacked on an hour in the beginning but it's still gonna go just as long as it ever did and so like going to Hillsong like ruin ruin me for that like forever like I was like there's no way I can go and sit in the service and not have like.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And estimated departure time right like I can't I can't do it so like just just practically from that alone okay I knew I couldn't and then that's not even taken into account like.

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know that I believe in all this super spiritual stuff it's been years since I've spoken in tongues consistently I don't like.

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_00]: She's a lot of the theological stuff that I'm like oh no I feel about it and Hillsong is like contemporary kind of sounding vibe but not panic hostile is that right.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_02]: No it'll song I don't know what they would consider themselves now but Hillsong was gonna cost well I think they still are but like it's very very hushush.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's very undercover like it's not they would have certain services or like attaching it it's attaching him and night and so they were probably a little.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that so they were probably be a pocket of Pinnocostalism okay but they're not like speaking in tongues every Sunday kind of thing.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah but like they had healing services okay and that was like where there will be speaking in tongues and we will be attempting miracles.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And one of their main speakers Robert Ferguson like he was really big into like spiritual speaking in tongues kind of stuff so he would occasionally they would have these services where like we are going to be imparting you know the gift tongues.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Everybody should know how to speak in tongues you know we're not going to do it here because that's not cool right that's not making it on the DVDs.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: But undercover yes they are Pinnocostal okay so I interrupted your how you went to the Hill song narrative yeah.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_02]: So I had a friend who was from New York I visited loved it and then we're like oh that's my escape route right like I can wish I could make a deterrence problem 11 in New York so.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to go there so I moved to New York and was living upstate and was going to that friends family church.

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay and like coming from Hill song momentum to anything else is like hitting a brick wall.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I moved back to the states moved to New York in October and by December was like losing my mind I like this church is too small and it's not that it's it's so small it's like it's so backwards they don't want to do anything different.

[00:30:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah I can't I can't be here and so before I had left I got in the call from readbogard who I knew from from Hillsong College but we weren't like we were like close.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But he he in his wife we're going to be moving to New York to plan to church and so he knew I was moving to New York so you just like you know if you're ever we're just you know looking for people so you know.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Looking to volunteer your time so at that point not even that right like if you just you just want to be part of it you know okay we're going to be there and we'd love to have you on board whatever.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So I knew I knew they were there and that I was like so.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Just bored and tired of this little little home church that I dragged my friend Ajane I was like all right they're starting this church in the city and we should go because this is.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_02]: This year is for the birds and we were meant to fly so we should go so we joined we joined the little connect group there little connect group for their little church we knew it wasn't going to be a whole song but we knew would be like.

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I was so excited you know feel so people ever came they probably come through so okay this is good so we joined that and like December and then in February he'll song has their vision Sunday every year and I don't remember why.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Why I knew but well maybe we were just still still so.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Colty and Colt by can still you know devoted to us I may be we're just watching it just for fun like literally just like what else we're going to do so.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: You got all this time back from like not going back to your home church you've got hours back on a Sunday right now you can watch multiple services I'm still going to give it to God.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah so.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So we knew they were having their vision Sunday and we watched it and then they announced.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We're coming to the US for the first time it's going to be a Hillsong New York and I was like oh I bet this disconnect group is going to become part of that and sure enough.

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So we weren't we did not I did not set out to be part of the Hillsong New York launch team.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay but I was and that's that's how they're right place at the right time wrong place.

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was I was in a place at a time.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Priska and I'm here to put a new podcast on your radar welcome to the horny chapel.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: A limited series podcast where Scott Ocamoto and I dive headfirst into the wild wild world of evangelical purity culture in each episode we discuss purity culture in detail.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Highlighting both its absurdity and the damage caused by an abstinence only rhetoric.

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We explore how our AAPI cultural influences combined with the misogynistic sexual misjudication from the church led to a unique brand of repression.

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But don't fret dear listener we also share how we found our way to a sex positive mindset after breaking free.

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And also for listeners Janice is on the Hillsong documentary so if you want to hear more about her time at Hillsong you can go watch that I'm sure you have.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you have mixed feelings about the Hillsong documentary because it kind of let Carlons rewrite the narrative a little bit.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So you know keeping that in mind watch the Hillsong documentary but like listen to the to the survivors the members over Carlons well you watch anyway that being said how do you how would you talk about your time at Hillsong how to do how do you view it now.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean it's a very mixed bag right like I was there from 2010 to 2017 officially and then like it I left Hillsong in 2017 but like Hillsong has never left me and I don't know that it ever will like it's just such a big part of my spiritual story and it wasn't wasn't all bad.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It definitely wasn't all it was cracked up to me but I don't know it's like how do you how do you talk about any any period of your life that was that big like it shaped a lot of who I am in good and bad ways.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I wouldn't redo any of it because like I don't know I just think it was all necessary and you know in my story it was necessary to have to be because it happened and there's no.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no going back there's no no do-overs. Can you tell us about your like role at Hillsong.

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So my first role well so I guess that until we joined that little connect group right of the read read and just both are who are absolute villains.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_02]: First our first set of personal villains and when it was there they're a little connect group those one experience like they were they're trying to build their church right so they're being like very nice and like you know.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Family and we're like doing like together and we're like you know calling to check up and see see how you're doing and you know.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And like sometimes it feels crazy to talk about it sometimes this is like people aren't like this right am I making this up this this this really happened but like literally as soon as it became Hillsong like all of that stopped and it's like no we are we're building this thing now.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: We are your leaders you will respect and honor us and here's here's what we need you to do and so you guys need to come you guys need to bring snacks no generic foods right because we're all about excellence so we know you guys are all poor but doesn't matter like.

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We don't want to see the the CBS you know chocolate owes it better be the orios no store brands no yeah yeah because we're doing things in excellence and like we're not providing this next that's on you so you guys bring all of this.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's the list of people who have come who are interested in being part of Hillsong these are your five to 15 names and this week you need to be calling these people and making sure they come back next week.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was I was like my first role right like calling people and trying to get them to come back to correct our connect group yeah yeah.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So that and then once we started having services they had like this whole big or deal of like having these auditions for the worship team so a bunch of us went in audition.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And then like it was all this build up and here this is so important and this is thing that we're doing remember they were like video taping and they're like asking us for our testimonies are like why are you here and why do you want to be on the worship like just all this stuff.

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And then like never said anything about it again so like some people made the team some people didn't you didn't know why and then you weren't like supposed to ask about it because it was just like God needs you to do whatever God needs you to do and you know just should be enough for you.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So I did not make that first cut why I don't know what they were like not even not you're not on the team they just never said anything and they like you just turn up.

[00:37:56] [SPEAKER_02]: You see oh there's a worship team and I'm not on it.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what audition.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, I didn't make it okay, but I had been a stage manager in Australia as well they were like that's that's what God needs you to do so you will lead this stage managing team so that was my role for a couple of years being the head stage manager and leading that team.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually I started leading a connect we're like every single job that I had at Hillsong New York they did not want me for at first and they would like either put me under somebody or just not like a worship team you just not on the team.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, yeah and so like I promise you if anyone else had had any kind of stage managing experience I would have been under them but like even with the connect groups.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I wasn't a leader at first they were just like you've been assigned to go to this connect group and then one of those leaders dropped out and the leader who was there was my friend and she was like can you help me with this oh yeah fine so I ended up then I guess you can be a connect group leader fine.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So then I was a connect group leader and then we were still using like the studies from Australia.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like this does not relate to anything that's going on here.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I can write these like you guys want me to do this and never said anything so then I didn't know I sent them like a sample I did like a little spec study.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like here's here's what I could do never said anything.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay then a few weeks went by and then they were like hey I was like you're gonna write those studies I was like I thought you but you never said okay fine.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Am I also on the worship team have I been missing practice.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So then I started writing the studies and from that one of the associate past is like oh it's a pretty good like those maybe you can help me punch up some of my sermons.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You started as that and then ended up like ghost writing sermons for him and there would be like ghost writing carols emails to the church like you know once a month so I was.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_02]: The stage manager I was a connect group leader I was a connect group study writer I was just the general ghost writer eventually I did earn my way.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Do all that work on to the worship team so then I was doing that and think that's it that's all I was doing.

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So you did one of everything.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_02]: A little bit of everything.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And when you left like why did why did you end up leaving?

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So in my in my various capacities right I'm a various jobs.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I got to see a lot of how the sausage was made and got really frustrated with who was being allowed to make it right and so there was this one Wednesday night service where this guy.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It just just come back from Australia and they put him up on the platforms so he was going to be one of the new associate pastors so he was just.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm seeing the service and he was so bad and I was like how like what like this guy?

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So I remember writing writing carol and email would be like hey like if we've got openings on the roster maybe next time you could consider I don't know.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: A person of color or maybe a woman at that time like wasn't even wasn't even bold or crazy enough just to just both right like just one another like.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: You know not me just one just one piece of me someone someone anyone and like and when I wrote that you know like I automatically took myself out of the running because it can be about me right so like just is I'm taking one for the team here.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm automatically this qualifying myself because I already know right if I if you want it that's not going to give it to you.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Right so so I'm gonna this is going to be my job now I'm going to fight for others we're going to ignore the fact that.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm writing your connect group studies I write your emails I'm writing some of the sermons that y'all are hearing but take me out and take me out of the equation right.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you're qualified right right I'm probably not probably not so take me out of the equation but like maybe maybe we could try you know woman and or a.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not even and or a person of color right and so he wrote back and was like that sounds great.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd love that so let's just pray for God to send that person it's all I am looking around and I'm like.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_02]: This congregation is full of and again not just me right because I'm out there's so many women and people of color in the the steam room in the engine of this thing right doing all these things.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But this platform is just white white white white white and so I was like and I remember writing back to him and being like that's great yay glad you're glad to open to it and they'd like writing to my friends and I put this knuckle head said like.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: For God to send like what and so I from that point.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Carl and I just started having these conversations about just the appearance of things and just being like we we've got to do better because it matters and you know.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_02]: You're out here and he wasn't at that time but the days were coming right where he was he was going to get big for for being the pastor of this says black lives matter.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And like yeah that's great that's great that people need to hear that but your platform your church your staff does not reflect this at all and that matters.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And so so it's basically just that growing frustration and then it got to a point where I was like oh, they just saw this interaction between some some kids who were there.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And I remember thinking like oh, like if I had a kid, I would not want to raise them in this environment and then thinking like wait.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm somebody's kid like if this wouldn't be good for a little black kid.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's probably not good for me and I probably need to not be here anymore.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, like it just it's got to be too much because it was like all the stuff is happening and I have to fight this massage and you have to fight this racism and fight all these things in the real world right but at least at your workplace.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's probably an HR department there's probably like protocols and there's probably laws that actually say like it's not going to spell out you can't just have all white people here but like there's going to be.

[00:44:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Some language somewhere that is like whoa, you got to diversify this right and there's like none of those safety measures in place in churches right.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like oh, like this is the place where I should feel the safest but I'm fighting these same fights without any kind of like outside authority or any kind of backup and.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I don't think I don't think this is what I'm supposed to be doing with my one wild and precious life so I think I got to go.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So when you left health song did you feel like you were leaving Hillsong the church did you feel like you were leaving Christianity or evangelicalism or like white evangelicalism specifically like what did you feel like you were walking away from.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: At that point literally just just Hillsong okay and white evangelicalism a bit but like my media league up plugged in at another church and I think at least started serving so I can wasn't.

[00:45:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Wasn't about God wasn't about Christianity or even evangelicalism as a whole like it was just like oh I think I think Hillsong is doing this thing wrong, but I.

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I've only ever been in the church that I grew up in Hillsong, Australia and then Hillsong New York.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I still didn't really have an awareness of evangelicalism kind of as a whole and so I still believe that like oh evangelicalism and Christianity are the same thing and there is a right way to do it like this structure is we're having.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that point I don't even think like evangelicalism as a whole needed to be saved or reformed.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Hillsong is a bad is a bad apple in this bucket full of apples that are probably fine.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I just got to go find another one.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Just one.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's just one probably.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So how was the other church was it also about apple or was it crisp and fresh and delicious.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It's always it's always crisp and fresh and delicious to be in with right and then from the outside and then buy into it and you're like this is mushy.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: You're the next.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought you were going to say a worm and for some reason a mushy apple is way worse to me.

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Because it's terrible.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So so the other church was a black man pastor and just much, much better on the surface racially immediately right but then also in platforming women and just like coming because like Hillsong is a structure is is is a colonizing structure right it's a colonizer.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So this church was you know founded in Harlem planted in Harlem.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_02]: They wanted the people in the church who were in leadership to like live in Harlem and like you know we're being about community you know Jesus cares about bodies and souls.

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I've just sold but also bodies right now about your day to day experience and all of this is like,

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah, great and so like it's fine for a while.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we're fast forward basically.

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh you were doing great as far as black people and as far as women.

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But LGBTQ we're about to have a huge issue here.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So there was a whole thing that happened there where it's like we were on the worship team there were queer people on the worship team.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: And like queer people this is 2017 2018 like people are coming into churches and like being upfront because they're like I'm trying to figure out what what does your stance what are your politics.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So like my best friend you know he's like from the jump pastor I'm gay right is that going to be an issue.

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And the pastor's like no that's fine you can be on this worship team.

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_02]: But whatever then there were some new worship leaders who came in and they were like, yeah we want to get to know you guys we're going to have these one on one conversation and as part of this one on conversation here is this least this the beliefs here are the club subscribers do you agree with these you have to agree with these and if you don't agree with these and you can't be on this team anymore.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, ah I know they are gay people on this team.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: What where where are you guys drawing the line?

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_02]: They're like, we can't tell you the word is the word now that you believe it or you don't let's say well I guess I don't so.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna go.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And then from that and just the way the whole thing was handled I don't know like I just sitting in the midst of all that like I just had this realization I was like oh.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think I need to go to church anymore.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like I think I think I'm been in church long enough.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I know enough where I don't actually need to hear a man start of the week about the Bible and so I don't want to do this anymore.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm not going to come to this church anymore and I'm not going to try to find a new one like I think I think I'm done I'm done with with church and at that point again nothing about God.

[00:50:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I can't even remember like how much how much of that was about like evangelicalism as a whole.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I might have still believe like, ah maybe apples just aren't for me but they're probably fine for someone out there's like there is a good apple out there somewhere.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure.

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, but I don't want to I don't want to try anymore so I'm good on that.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And did you did you experience any like grief when you stopped going to church or or no because you still thought like you had God Christianity like for yourself you just weren't going to church like what was that like.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think the grief the grief was just just disappointment and people and these leadership structures again and I don't I did not have the deconstruction experience.

[00:51:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't have to go through it by myself and like and I didn't know I didn't know that was what was happening to me but like my best friend who was at that church with me.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We left it the same time and then I remember he sent me like a link to almost heretical podcast and they had like just a few weeks before that had done this series on like almost actuality what does the Bible actually say about it.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So we like listen to that episode and we're like okay no we're good yeah no our beliefs are fine.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Then they have like this whole series before that about the Bible an Old Testament and looking at these stories from a different perspective and whatever and so secretly both of us had like kept listening to this podcast.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay and it'd be interesting to like go listen to it now and like see see if it was as my I'm blowing is I remember it being like just the way they were just like looking at things and I was like oh my god I've had I've had some of these thoughts and some of these questions.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a life it was like a few weeks later and we were hanging out and then we were just kind of looking at each other and it's kind of like I don't know I kept listening to those podcasts.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a bit of you.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: You listen to it and he was like yes so the we just started talking about like just these bigger bigger concepts just about spirituality and just about creation and just God and general.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: So I don't know so we we just like deconstructed together and have always had each other to like bounce these ideas off of and always like had each other in our corner and so like.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_02]: You leave Hillsong and you lose a bunch of people but I I don't I don't need a whole bunch of people anyway, but then you have your core your core folks and so for me it's like the people who stuck with me through this.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Who didn't judge me for it even if they were secretly or not so secretly you know worried about me and whatever like I still have I still have people from my Hillsong days.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I still have a few people from like that that other church so I didn't have the experience of like losing my whole community so I don't I don't know what that pain is but just gradually gradually over time like because again I never left either place.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Like this big you know raging desire or need to like you know I don't tear the structure down.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I hated here like it was just like oh like this isn't working for me and I'm gonna go if you're gonna stay but yeah, I get it, but yeah, it's just not for me anymore and if you're really that worried about me.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know then keep me closer right don't how does it help to shove me off into the dark also if you are gonna shove me off into the dark that's fine as well because I've got.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_02]: I've got folks over here so be okay.

[00:54:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a lot of us in the dark so what are your well would you call yourself a Christian today what are your views on spirituality or divinity or a god yeah where do you fall in that.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would and do call myself a Christian now like up circle around there's a while I'm like no I'm not and now I am not evangelical set that on fire all day every day but I do consider myself Christian partly because.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like kind of like Judaism right how like I think we've gotten to the point where you can be a secular Christian like I speak the language I know the rituals this is the only it's the only lens I see through religiously right do I believe the mythology no am I practicing.

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know I get that question of because what what is the actual practice of Christianity I don't go to church I don't.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't submit to the authority of anyone else so like those are interesting conversations because like it makes people's not about what I do is like what do you think makes a Christian because maybe I am and maybe I'm not but I'm claiming it because I want to make people uncomfortable I want you to like even jellicles love to just discount people right and especially if you say I'm not a Christian anymore they're like I you never were and now we don't have to listen to you because you're not like.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_02]: You don't even go here and so it just like throws a wrench in their machine if I'm like but I do go here and I am one of you actually I think I'm a better one of you than you so what now.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So I do claim Christianity because I also don't think we've ever actually seen it I don't think we actually know what it is like I have no I'm nothing against Jesus idea of Jesus but a lot of a lot of it's just silly to me and so like.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know people want do you believe in Jesus I don't think I shouldn't have to like that's my feeling it like if what Adam did could condemn us all.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Regardless of what I believe about it regardless of whether I know about it or not it Jesus and what Jesus did is supposed to be more powerful why would the scales not be.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I said like why why shouldn't it matter I shouldn't have if I have to know about this thing and I have to believe in it and have to do all this stuff to make it be so then it's less powerful than the the previous thing.

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah I haven't thought about it that way that like Adam and Eve's the punishment for what they did is like automatic that just automatically applies to everyone right but the apparently Jesus dying on a cross which is supposed to save us all is not automatic you have to like click that option you have to choose that.

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah ask him into your heart like otherwise it doesn't count you still have the punishment that one was automatic but this one this one you got it like is a drop down menu and you got to choose the right one.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You got to choose any of the shoes that every day you have to choose it in this way by you know doing this this certain set of things and so like for me I'm like it's not that I don't.

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't believe in Jesus I don't think about him but in that not thinking about him I think I believe in him more than some of y'all do because.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_02]: With you like have to use my best friend I love him I was like I'm just living my life and like trying to be a good person and trying to do what I think you know he would have wanted us to do.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But also it's not did he die and come back to life I don't know but if he did didn't shouldn't matter what I believe about him right yeah preach Janice.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever considered writing servants.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay what does it mean you said you're not ex-ventalical anymore you are revenge or what does that mean to you and what are you like what's the revenge part for you.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: So the revenge part is things like this and things like actually like having having conversations with evangelicals and not and not being polite like not playing by the rules of politeness because like I think a lot of us when we deconstruct.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_02]: We have like this sense of this is just for me right I'm doing this I'm not telling you what to do and like I know I felt a wait for a long time of light I don't want to be I don't want to ruin anyone else's faith.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't want to be responsible for that right and I just don't want to do it and now like in a simple as for me to be revenge or local is to be like no I do actually want to ruin your faith.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I do actually I'm fine with like being partially responsible for your deconstruction yeah because I think like once once the fear of hell is gone that just changes the game right that just changes your whole like outlook on things and again we take that for ourselves right and so when people are coming in your coming there going to hell you know I don't even believe in that but you know fine whatever okay I'll go.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But still like not not pushing back on them really like I'm going to leave you alone I'm going to let you have your belief whatever but then like for me even like moving moving from New York back to California I was like having having this wrestle like do a stage go and like feeling like no I feel like I am I'm supposed to go back to California and I don't know if it's even a supposed to think like it just feels like it's fine and that's.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the move and that's probably what I should do right now and then like having this fear of like oh who's voices that like am I is then I'm trying to trick me and then being like you don't even believe in the enemy.

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_02]: What are you what are you operating under right now and like oh yeah I don't believe in the devil so this voice that's just me all these voices have always been me.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh okay why was I operating under that fear oh that was just automatic and so it's the same with like okay what is my fear in.

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Telling people no even jellic was in this crazy no here here's how I think about Jesus prove me wrong like you wanted to have this conversation so no I I know I know how you think I speak your language you don't speak mine you don't understand where I'm at but I know the tricks of the trade right we know how to trip these people up.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_02]: We know where all the plot holes are but like out of politeness we don't point them out.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm like what am I what am I afraid of I don't I don't believe in hell so I can't I can't be sending you to hell right so why would I not disrupt this because we think like oh that's so rude no the root thing is that we were all just living our lives and then at some point somebody came along and said hey you're wicked you are depraved.

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And you need to save your like I'm eight.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: What did I do like that's that's the main thing there's nothing meaner than evangelicalism but then we feel like it will be so mean to take that away from him yeah yeah like it would be so mean to be like what if just play with the idea what if we were actually good.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: What if you were just like a good person worthy of love that's it.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_02]: You monster yes.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: How could you tell someone something like that?

[01:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes sometimes people like people like group with in church or people you know people from my church days will message me on my Instagram and be like this makes me really sad like sad to see I'm like.

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Please tell me more like what what about this makes you sad your good your body is good you are loved you are worthy you're okay you're not alone like what of those statements are which one of those do you not agree with.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Right and like say that out loud and see what that feels like you know right.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So may you too might be even to go.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Janice I would be honored to join your religious cult do we call it a call yet has it reached that level.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not there yet but we're working on it we're trying to we're trying to get there.

[01:03:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no it's interesting I have been like I've had that idea for a long time that like I don't want to cause anyone to stumble right because it's like people take their faith so seriously I know what that feels like I know how personal it feels.

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was awful to leave like as freaking as it is now it was exhausting and just like really hard to leave and I don't want to be responsible for causing someone to leave like God I do not want that on my shoulders.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But I have found myself now like wanting to have these conversations with people because yeah like you said like I know what you're thinking like I know I know this proved to me that I'm wrong like how I and not saying that I will never be wrong I will be wrong but like how is it wrong to say hey what if we're actually just good what if we are not just wicked for being born.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah I don't know I find myself wanting to have that conversation now so maybe I am revenge on.

[01:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that's very exciting new religion for me.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Do I think yeah like it just what is what is the fear that is keeping me from saying or doing you know whatever and so like I had had someone and I've had people like the whole way these past four years you know to different degrees but.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh you helped me in my deconstruction or you you know you something you said like you made me started to deconstruct and I'm not like no no no no no no no no no no no don't put that on me and then I'm like okay I'll take that I still don't think it's fully true because we see it we see it in evangelicals we see it in trumpkins who you know that been to i grams.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean you know very very, very, certainly where it's like it doesn't matter people can say anything they can bring you all the reasons all the reasoning in the world and you are so entrenched in your thing that like it just does not get through.

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Until there is a crack in that armor but I can't I can't be that crack I can be something the slips in it.

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But like I can't cause that because I don't even know I think everyone because evangelicalism is a man made manufactured thing right like it is it is something that can be.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Destructed it can be taken away like it's not it's not intrinsic to to us it's not you aren't born with that right is given to you you put it on so there is there is a weakness in it right because man can't make anything perfect.

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So everyone has like a chink in the armor somewhere I have no way of knowing what anyone else is is so I can't I can't really crack it but if I can get to you it's because there was already.

[01:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, yes right and it was already in my in my arena right because I don't I don't reach everyone not everyone is for me I'm not for everyone but I think everyone everyone has their little.

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Chink and everyone has somebody or something out there that can get through to them and so you know when we get through it is not because we did it it's because you already open like there was already there's already something there and then you wander across my path or I wander across yours and then you were like oh.

[01:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So I mean yeah I'll take I'll take the credit you know if they don't have any if they don't have the language for the whole experience yet but like but I know.

[01:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I was just again I was just a little spirit that that slipped in but it was already the crack was already there.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Janice is the Holy Spirit coming in at right time.

[01:07:11] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, Janice could you offer some encouragement to the deconstructing community and I'll leave it at that.

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh no.

[01:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say the deconstructing community.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I guess my encouragement would be that like and kind of just circling back to how we started right like talking about content morning there are better things ahead and we are all the product of whatever we've been through and wherever we've come from.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: But like they're just better things ahead and we don't have to recreate everything and I don't know like there's a lot of loss associated with losing your religion and with changing your mind and and going in new directions but I don't know like I just I believe like you can't really lose things that are really for you.

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And like evangelicalism is so it makes forever out of like such temporary things and it takes away like so many eternal things by making us be so fixated on on eternity now right like you can't you don't need to worry about enjoying your life now you'll get in an heaven.

[01:08:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Right you don't need to worry about restoring that relationship or spending time with that relative now because you'll see them in heaven right so you can just focus on doing the Lord's work and focus on you know whatever the church needs you to do right now.

[01:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And like and you just lose so much in trying to like hang on to these things they're like I'm not really for you like you know leaving leaving evangelicalism a lot of people don't do it because they're afraid of losing their community.

[01:09:09] [SPEAKER_02]: But like you never stop to think about my fight if these people can just like be taken away like that this isn't a real community like there's something wrong here.

[01:09:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And so again there are better things they're better things ahead you are going to lose some people in deconstruction but you're going to gain a lot of people too and those connections.

[01:09:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And like there's no perfection here in the deconstruction community we're still people people in as best we know how.

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But we mess up a lot we mess up so much but it's it's a different kind of messing up right now because it's not for eternity right it is not like and it's and it's not a mark on on you as a personal person like your actual being like we can all.

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: be misogynist and patriarchal and anti black and judgmental and all these things that have been sewn into somehow how we've been taught to be you're going to carry all of that into.

[01:10:15] [SPEAKER_02]: deconstruction and you're going to have to work on that but you as a just human being you are not intrinsically misogynist you are not intrinsically patriarchal you are not intrinsically anti black or you know any of these things so it's not a mark against your eternal character right and I don't have a heaven or a hell to put you in right but you're going to come over here.

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_02]: You've got to be confronted with all of these things about you and either you're do the work for you won't.

[01:10:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And according to that you will connect with certain people and you will build a new life and a new community and new relationships and hopefully it matches and or exceeds the ones you came from right like I wouldn't at this point trade.

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Anyone that I know now for anyone that I lost in the deconstruction journey right and it's not like a one to one you know.

[01:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, this was my old bastard and now this is my new one you know this was my old best friend and now got this thing went in there much better like it's not like that.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_00]: No, but it's like a different time different place like different these people are giving you something that the people in your life when you were in church couldn't give you down right.

[01:11:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Right and so like you just have to be open to that and you have to you know take those steps and so for the deconstructing community if you have taken those steps and like you're well you're well on your way and you know in the moment when you are.

[01:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's let's be evangelical from on the right and when you are remembering the days in Egypt and you are you know.

[01:12:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Janice said I give him my body a trigger.

[01:12:09] [SPEAKER_02]: You are sad because you remember well they say we had we had quail and you know whatever now it's just this man and I'm sick of this you know.

[01:12:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I want to go back like you weren't a slave you weren't happy you're here now because you had questions that couldn't be answered and I remember that like we're going we're going somewhere we don't know where but no, we don't.

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's an adventure and I think I think that's what life is supposed to be we weren't ever supposed to have all the answers because like what's the point of that we're supposed to be figuring this out as we go.

[01:12:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So, and it wasn't working before like you said like you don't want to go back it wasn't working with a working I don't know where we're going but we're not going back we're not going back.

[01:13:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Kamala that was unintentional but also Harris Harris Waltz 24.

[01:13:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely so yeah like there are just there are better there are better things ahead so keep going yes all right well thank you so much for being here you're the best not trying.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists if you enjoyed this episode or any others please follow subscribe rate or review the podcast for every listen and if you can share this episode with a friend who might enjoy the conversation as well.

[01:13:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't forget that you can join the conversation in the Dauntless Media Collective Discord server by clicking the link in the show notes or heading to Dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top banner.

[01:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: As always you can find me over on Instagram at Hello Underscored Deconstructionists where together we are building community after Evangelicalism one story at a time.

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast and when this sweet little Bob inevitably gets stuck in your head I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you.

[01:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us and of course to you for listening see you next time.