S2 E5: Star-Spangled Jesus with April Ajoy

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello deconstructionists, there's an exciting event coming up on February 15th and 16th

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: in Atlanta, Georgia called Content Warning hosted by Thereafter and Go Home Bible Your

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Drunk podcasts. The event is for people like me and you, people coming out of church

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and especially out of purity culture to get together and chat. Content Warning is

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_02]: a unique event with over 20 collaborators who are podcasters, authors, therapists, speakers

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: and creators that want to reinvigorate the conversation happening around sex and sexuality

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: in faith deconstruction spaces where people are healing from purity culture. This event

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is designed to bring forward intersectional topics that we don't always see discussed

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: in these spaces. There will be panel discussions and facilitated conversations

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and even a live stream option for those who can't make it in person. The hope is to

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_02]: make this an annual gathering in various locations as we continue striving to build

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: inclusive community. Registration is now open and if you sign up before October 31st,

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_02]: you get the early bird pricing. So head over to contentwarningevent.com to register.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I just think if anything people are just really complicated and I think

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: we're all a little good and we're all a little bad and depending on the day

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_03]: we can do good or we can cause harm and I think that's why I'm hoping by speaking out

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: about my story and hey, I used to really believe this too and I understand why people

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: believe what they believe because I believed it but to just show like I believe there's

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: a better way. I think there's a better way to love people. I think there's a better

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: way to follow the teachings of Jesus if that's the goal but also to have a soft

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_03]: landing for people that change too because at the end of the day we want people to

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: change for the better.

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_02]: My guest today is April Ajoy who uses she her pronouns. April is a content creator and podcast host who uses humor to shine light on harmful, toxic, and sometimes just weird traits of American evangelicalism. After growing up an evangelist's kid entrenched in Christian nationalism and working in conservative Christian media, she saw the harm caused firsthand.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Still a Christian, she uses her platform to expose the dangers of Christian nationalism while promoting a more inclusive faith. April has been featured on BuzzFeed, CNN, Newsweek, and more. She's been married to Beecher for 10 years and they have two daughters together.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_02]: April also has a book coming out on October 1st called Star-Spangled Jesus, Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding a True Faith. So April, thank you for being here. Welcome.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Before we jump into your church experience, can you tell us a little bit about your book that's coming out?

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So my book is called Star-Spangled Jesus and it's about, it's kind of part memoir, part educational, but it's funny. I would imagine, I mean, I don't know of any other books out there on Christian nationalism that are funny.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of a, that you don't usually think of humor when you think of, you know, taking back the country in the name of Jesus. But yeah, it's kind of a take on the mindset of Christian nationalism and because there's a lot of books that talk about the history and the statistics and the harm that is caused.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I definitely talk about a lot of that stuff too. But as a former full fledged believer in it, I just talk about like the why. Why did we do this? What was our mindset? Why did we think this way? And you know, and some of the things that made me start questioning certain things.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's some funny stories because as harmful as Christian nationalism is, it's also kind of funny. Like when you take a step back, like it's weird and it's just like in hindsight, like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I thought that was normal or cool or, you know, it was weird.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, so yeah, it's a fun, serious, silly, but also, I don't know, timely, I guess with the election coming up.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so yeah, that's the book. And I'm hoping that by shining a mirror on my own life, that people could see themselves in my story and maybe start questioning their own beliefs if they read my book. I mean, the target audience may not, you know, they'll hear the leftist liberal sheep and immediately discard me. But you know, there's the hope.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: If you follow me, like if you're in my circle on Instagram, you probably also follow April Adjoy because she's the big name, big content creator in this space. But if you don't, if by some chance you don't, please go look at her stuff because it's really funny and like so healing to watch you kind of poke fun at some of these beliefs and ideologies and practices that are like really harmful and very serious but to see you kind of like poke fun at them just like feels like a good thing.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it feels good. Like you can laugh at it. You can acknowledge that it's bad and then be like, okay, and also, it's so bad that it's kind of funny. And so yeah, I appreciate what you do in this space. And I'm excited to read your book and see how you, yeah, like bring that humor to this topic.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thank you. That humor is how I cope. So I've seen that like some people will say like you were never a Christian. You weren't actually in this. So can you tell us about how, can you prove to us that you were really in this? Yeah, sure. So I was born a wee little lead.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: No, so my dad was an evangelist growing up and then my grandfather. So my dad's dad was a pastor ever since I was born like my entire life. We were a ministry family like a legacy passed down generation. And so my family is my mom, my dad and I have two brothers.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_03]: We travel all over the world and my dad would speak in various stadiums and conferences and churches everywhere. And so I was homeschooled until middle school. And then that was when my dad took over my grandfather's church and it was a non-denominational church, but we were basically assemblies of God.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So we were Pentecostal because my grandfather was an assemblies of God pastor, but then left it for political reasons. Didn't like how the board and all the political. We just had a joke that for all have sinned and fallen short of the assemblies of God. And so we left that. So we were like, I guess in our minds slightly more progressive versions of assemblies of God. We were still very progressive or not progressive, very Pentecostal.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And could like a big thing in assemblies of God is like women can't do anything. Were you like actually assemblies of God? Actually, women can. Oh, so they're there. They so they say women can. Okay. But you don't actually see women doing it. It's kind of more of a lip service thing. I mean, you do some but it was it's still my upbringing was a little weird because I didn't get on the nose patriarchy.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_03]: It was more subtle because like my dad, for instance, told me I could do whatever I wanted. Like my dad was very feminist and when it came to me and believing that women could preach and women could do anything that men could do. But the larger church and especially because my dad was an evangelist. So we were in a lot of different churches.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Like Baptist, even Methodist, like all sorts of denominations. And a lot of those were very patriarchal and weren't pro women at all. So it was a weird kind of dichotomy to be raised in like my nuclear family where I was taught that I can do and be whatever I want to be. And me being a woman has nothing to do with that.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But then to be in a larger Christian culture where in Sunday school, I'm given the umbrella chart, you know, where it's like Christ and then the husband and then the wife. So I was like I was just getting mixed messages. So I was kind of always a little bit of a feminist growing up.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. I mean, I was a pro life feminist. Right. You know, women can also preach harmful ideas kind of feminist. Right. Yes. Yeah. Women women are allowed to also be terrible.

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So were you like with your dad at these like big stadiums when he's like preaching and stuff? Did you take part in it? Like what was that like?

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So I would always sing before my dad would preach. Actually, my brother sang too for a while. And so did my mom. And so we were kind of like the Partridge family for Pentecostals, I guess.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I would sing and then we would do different types of ministry work like, you know, free medical tents. We'd bring doctors with us sometimes like to Kenya. We did that. And then we would do Jesus marches, which are marches for Jesus.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess it's pretty self explanatory. But we'd like sometimes we'd have police escort, but we would get a bunch of churches to join in and we would just march around the city and we'd have a specific path and we'd have signs that say, you know, Jesus loves you.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And we'd hand out gospel tracts and witness people as we marched and walked. So yeah, I mean, and we would do like different plays. Sometimes my dad had wrote or he had come up with this kind of church play that was him in a boxing ring, boxing Satan.

[00:10:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know, but I was the sign girl in that. So like between the rounds, I'd walk through and be like round one.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a family affair through and through. And I was a true believer. Especially when I got older, like in high school and even college was much more on the we need to turn America back to Jesus.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And my dad, you know, I watched a lot of Fox News with him. We would listen to Rush Limbaugh and the car and all sorts of conservative talk radio.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, we just believed full on that America was especially chosen by God to be part of his master plan.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And that in order to keep getting a blessing from God, we had to acknowledge who our God was. We had to say Jesus. So when I was 16, my dad had written a book of this story.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_03]: My dad wrote a book called America, say Jesus. And then we got a 40 foot bus that we put America, say Jesus all over it.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And we drove for like, it was like a two month caravan that we drove from South Florida to California. And then I think we went up to D.C. too.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_03]: We were gone a long time. The most embarrassing one was, and I was, I mean, I was a believer. I thought it was so cool.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, we're changing the world. We were in Las Vegas. And so my dad thought it was funny to just drive.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess we're kind of like trolling the sinners. So we drove up and down the Las Vegas strip several times.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_03]: My dad was honking with our America, say Jesus signs all over our bus. And we'd yell out the window, Jesus loves you.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there was one time this guy, he was probably in his early 20s. I don't know. He yelled back and was like, why don't you bring your Jesus over here, sweetie?

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And I like got real embarrassed. And I was like, oh my God, it was like, it took me out of the moment for a second.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That was kind of gross. What am I doing? So yeah.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. And then there's a song that goes with this too, right?

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, there is.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Unless you're sick of talking about it.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no. It will follow me until I die.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I wrote a song, I think when I was 17 called America, say Jesus to go along with my dad's book because my dad was promoting the book still.

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And when I was 18, my whole family went on the Jim Baker show and my dad was talking about the book.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I sang the song America, say Jesus that I wrote. It has really poignant lines like I am downright sick of them demanding me to be politically correct.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And then it goes into America, say Jesus. I'm not going to break it down. I still have it memorized as one does. It's like a fever dream that never goes away.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you have a recording of this song?

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_03]: There was a recording of the song, but thankfully this was in 2006. So it was before streaming music was a big thing.

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So they were like, it was on a CD. I don't think we ever sold it because we never quite got to that level.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I do have the recording of me on the Jim Baker show because they gave us the DVD of the show afterwards.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And I have shared little clips here and there of that. I can only share it in clips though. It's too cringe.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm honestly nervous that someone out there is going to see it and love it unironically.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't want to be the face of something that people genuinely are like, oh, this is great. Yeah.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, no, no, no, it's not.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening to this podcast from the Dauntless Media Collective.

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[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Welcome to the There After podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

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[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So, okay. You are like all in here.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: How did you get out? When did you start to be like, wait, maybe this is a little bit crazy.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So there were always little things along the way that kind of didn't make sense, but you just kind of push it down.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_02]: It's weird too that it's like you can be all in, like you said, and still when you look back, you're like, but there were these little moments.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I think we all feel that it's like we were all in and there were little moments along the way.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. It's hard to like when I was, gosh, I was probably six or seven maybe.

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_03]: This is a core memory. We were at a, I might have been eight.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. We were at a restaurant and our waiter, he seemed just a little more flam, like feminine than most men I had encountered before.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And after he had greeted us at our table, my dad was like, okay, well we should go.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Like basically made us leave and I didn't understand why we were leaving.

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember that was the first time I think I heard my dad say, oh, well that man's a homosexual.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was a weird moment because I remember I looked back, I was like Lot's wife, but I looked back at the waiter.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And he was kind of back towards the kitchen and he saw us leaving and he looked really sad.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember feeling like something, like what we were doing wasn't right.

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But I was a kid and at that age everything your parents say is like God saying it.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And so at that point I didn't know why it felt wrong, but it did.

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And I hadn't been taught to hate homosexuality yet and gay people, but that came later.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I feel like when you're a kid, you just, you're so innocent and you're even innocent to like, people say like hate is taught.

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think that's 100% true because I had no reason to actually leave and be mad at our waiter.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, like that little moment.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But then years go by and when you're hearing week after week in Sunday school or in kids church,

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you're talking about sin and you're inherently bad and all of these things.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Then suddenly you're like, oh yeah, well he probably just had a demon.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And that makes sense. We wouldn't want to associate with that.

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was taught too that homosexuals, that's typically how they were called in the church,

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_03]: but that they were given over to a reprobate mind. I don't know if you were taught that or not.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Which basically meant that like God had given up on them.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And so there was not really a point in trying to save them or witness to them.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So anyway, little things like that.

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_03]: But I would say the biggest thing that really shifted that was like a major, okay, I know something that I believe is wrong was

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_03]: in 2011 I was 23 years old and my dad had got diagnosed with stage four lung cancer,

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: non-smokers because he had never smoked but it was so it was a really rare form of lung cancer.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And we were Pentecostal so we believed in healing and miracles.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that God was going to heal my dad.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And he was young, he was 57.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know, because we were taught name it and claim it as long as you have enough faith that God will answer your prayer.

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I knew I could not have had more faith.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And we had so many ministers and people from all over the world who also were praying and believing that God was going to heal him.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And then God didn't. He died four months later.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was that was a wake up call because I knew, okay, I know that at least this Pentecostal version of this faith that is is wrong.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And also like the way some Christians responded instead of just admitting that God didn't answer our prayer.

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_03]: They tried to blame us.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Like there was some unresolved sin in our lives and that's why God didn't heal him or that my dad was living outside God's will because he was a pastor at that point instead of an evangelist.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Like really like in hindsight seems really silly, but in the moment was really painful.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So that that really started it.

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And also I think it's important to most people that espouse Christian nationalism in some way don't realize that they are, you know, like they just they think they're being a good Christian and and in this in a lot of white, especially white American evangelical spaces.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, it's it's love God love people vote Republican and those are all kind of intertwined.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So I ended up deconstructing theological beliefs before political beliefs.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_03]: But because they were so intertwined, it kind of all started happening at the same time.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: If that makes sense.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So what did well, no, I have so many questions.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: How does your family respond to this?

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like when your dad passed away, like how did your family respond?

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Were they kind of in a similar boat to you and being like this version of Christianity isn't right or something is wrong with this?

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Or were they like putting the blame on themselves?

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we knew because we knew our own hearts.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So we didn't actually put the blame on ourselves, but we were just really confused as to why we felt God abandoned us.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was something that we couldn't say out loud.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I was I ended up being really angry with God, but I couldn't admit that because I'm you know, you're not allowed to be mad at God.

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think we kind of kept quiet a little bit about our own beliefs and how those were shifting.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But we knew that OK, well the way the what these Christians some of these Christians are saying to us is not right.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's and it made us in hindsight look back at maybe some things that we had said to people that were going through really hard times that were kind of dismissive and maybe hurtful.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Then so it definitely gave me more empathy and it made me just I mean our whole world stopped, but the rest of the world kept going.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And that just makes you really introspective.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I mean it took a while for all of that to kind of surface, but it made us really close to because we were I mean we're already a close family.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_03]: But there is also this kind of like who's going to take our dad's place, like who's going to be the minister?

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we've always had someone in our family to be in ministry.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like well my dad's gone now who's going to take it?

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And so my I have two brothers one really felt that call to be a preacher and so he like went to seminary and a lot of people were kind of putting my dad's mantle for the Pentecostal term on my brother.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And then my other brother, this was actually the other big thing that made me start to question things really quickly in 2015.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So this would have been about four years after my dad passed.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_03]: He came out to me as gay and that he had known since middle school.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was like oh my God, that just realizing how homophobic our household was and really that whole world.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know like homophobia was about as essential as John 3 16 when you grew up in evangelicalism.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like now it's kind of shifted to be more transphobia, but there's definitely homophobia still.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Which is terrible just not not endorsing that.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, so I knew immediately because when you grow up in these spaces, you're taught pretty much two versions of why someone could be gay.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_03]: One is that they're possessed by demons and you know they literally have no choice.

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_03]: They've been given over to a reprobate mind.

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_03]: The other is that they are influenced by demons and choose to be gay because they don't have a strong relationship with God and they're easily influenced by.

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So really demons are involved either way and it's really semantics on you know possession versus oppression.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But I knew as soon as my brother because I knew my brother.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I know there's no way there's no way he would choose to be gay growing up in the household that I mean he was at that table when we left that restaurant too.

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And so I immediately I mean it was instant.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So then that was when I knew where my like I still held the same theology because I didn't know enough to not believe it was a sin.

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But it was the first time that my heart wanted like I wanted my theology to be wrong.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I just had to go on the journey to figure out.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay what does the Bible actually say? What was I taught about this? What was the initial intent? Does this matter?

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Like and am I believing the same level of inerrancy on every issue?

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Like am I being consistent? Am I cherry picking?

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So anyway it just like took me down this whole path on you know it was the first time I learned that it was possible to be an affirming of LGBTQ Christian.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_03]: That there's like a whole group of Christians out there that affirm LGBTQ and do it based on scripture.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was really eye opening for me because I had never been taught that there was an alternative way to read the Bible.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And you know just leaving behind believing that the Bible is inerrant because if you actually read it objectively there are clear errors that we just like ignored I guess.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yep. So that was easy to leave behind and then you know it's a long story.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03]: We're talking about like over a decade worth of changing.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_03]: But my politics caught up to me in 2016 when like politically at this point I was like okay well I'm at least for gay marriage.

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Because even if I don't know for sure if it's a sin or not I know that I think it's messed up that I could look at my brother and say sorry you have to be lonely forever because of my beliefs.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And he even believed initially that he should be celibate which is what he did for a little bit and then figured out oh no I can be affirming of myself.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And God does love me and I was like yes. So yeah but then the big one politically that really made me realize oh shoot I've been a Christian nationalist this whole dang time.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Was Donald Trump running in 2016 or 2015 when he joined the primary race because at the time I was working at CBN which is 700 Club Pat Robertson.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_03]: As a producer and it was just very eye opening. I found myself being at odds with a lot of what I was hearing said in the cubicles.

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And I could not for the life of me understand why we were defending or making excuses for Donald Trump.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And like there were Trump prophets that were coming on the scene.

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And I I it just all was bizarre. It felt like I say this in my book like it felt like a glitch in the matrix like something was off and I was sensing okay something isn't is not right.

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I was realizing oh something has not been right for a long time. Yeah but Donald Trump was so obvious about it like I feel like he just made the hypocrisy really really loud that I couldn't ignore it anymore.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So then I didn't that was the first year I did not vote Republican. Okay. I had not deconstructed enough to vote for Hillary though like for a Democrat.

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean I in high school I made it I had a MySpace group that I titled I'm a Christian therefore I'm a Republican. Okay.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So you know old ways die hard. I could not vote for a demon rat. Yep.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah and I think a lot of people like I don't know I think about like going into this election season and a lot of people have changed and grown since 2016.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I think that's like that's exciting going into this going into November this year and like maybe people who felt like they couldn't vote for Trump but also couldn't vote for Hillary are feeling differently this time.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know. Yeah. Well one of the big things that was just I realized is that oh your Christianity and your faith actually does not depend on who you vote for.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And so many Christians including myself at one point made like voting almost a sacred act. Yes. And if you voted Republican you did it right. You voted for God.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you voted for a Democrat then Satan had influenced you and it was it was almost like a sin that you had to repent for.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: But as a like thinking about myself as a Christian when I was young and what you know Christians who vote Republican and that's really important to them might say to this it's like your faith in God your relationship with God should influence every part of your life and we should be like you know influencing other people in one way that we do that is through voting.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So how do you like what do you say to that? I think that if you are actually objectively looking at both parties and their platforms each party you could argue has policies that are either pro-Christian and actually help people and that are not.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_03]: But I also think that this is this one's a complicated issue because so many people that are on the conservative Christian side mainly vote Republican because of abortion. Right. And LGBTQ.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think we could argue I think there's a better argument for why that one doesn't matter as much as a Christian because you can't you can't force people to like change who they are.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Although they would still argue for that against that too. Right. But I do feel like it comes down to like the pro-life issue mostly. Yeah and I think one thing that and honestly it was the abortion issue that kept me from voting for Hillary in 2016.

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. Because if you really believe it's murder you right. It's like I don't know if you really believe it's murder it's hard to vote against that or for that.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Well and I think I think yeah it's an interesting place to be because you do have to hold cognitive dissonance. Right. If you are in if you hold an extreme pro-life position which really is just pro birth. Right. Because there's you I mean oh my gosh this this this there's so much cognitive dissonance here that it's hard to like to know where to start.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. But mainly if your goal is to actually lower abortions to save that you know to quote unquote save the most babies abortion rates and you can like this is statistically accurate abortion rates go down under Democratic presidents under Democratic policies.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And that really because abortion is a symptom of you know the problem is unwanted pregnancies. Right. And if you're just you know banning abortion is just putting a bandaid on a gushing wound. You know like that's and how do you get rid of unwanted pregnancies comprehensive sex education which Republicans are typically against. Right.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Free easy access to birth control which a lot of Republicans are also against they just voted no to the contraceptive act over the summer and you know family paid leave health insurance just you know income equality.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_03]: There's so many things that it's not just one issue. There are a hundred issues that affect that problem. And since Roe v Wade was overturned the national abortion rate has gone up. There's been more abortions and there's been more infant immortality since this happened like in Texas I think it went up.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Don't quote me on this but it's gone up quite a bit in Texas. And so I think it's just ask yourself if you really are wanting to save babies look at the numbers because just banning abortion doesn't save babies and if anything it causes more problems.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't I think there's a lot of people who are pro-life who genuinely believe that they are doing the right thing by banning abortion. They think they're saving the innocent. Right. But they're also voting against a lot of the you know the best interest for those babies once they're born on a lot of different policies.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So you just it's for me I had to realize like oh I actually want to lower abortion rates by me being pro-choice is actually being the pro-life position because of like so many women that die in child when they're forced to carry to term an unviable pregnancy or even the fact that women that have miscarriages that have to get a DNC like now they have to prove that they had a miscarriage or they could be criminalized.

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And then also the cognitive dissonance too of like even when I was the most pro-life I would have never said that I believe women who have an abortion should be charged with murder.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think most people who are pro-life would agree now there are some there are some extreme extremists out there that do want to criminalize abortion and throw women in jail.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I've heard some even say they want to give women the death penalty for having an abortion.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would you know I think most pro-life people would say that's extreme and we don't agree with charging someone with murder who has an abortion.

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And if that's you like sit with that and realize okay it's clearly you don't actually believe it's murder because you don't believe like you know what I mean.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's hard there's so many little nicks that you can make with that because it does seem like generally the most pro-life people they just want to ban abortion.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_03]: They just want to ban abortion and you know wash their hands and feel like they've saved babies without having to wrestle with the problems that that comes with.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And ignoring the fact that they're actually causing the birth the abortion rate to go up.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And for me I can't tell and I go back and forth in my mind and it's probably some of both of this but like are both of these.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: But I can't tell if it's like an education thing like oh they need to maybe they don't know that abortion rates go down when a Democrat's in office or when people have access to abortion and they have education like abortion rates go down then.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe they don't know that so maybe we have to get that out there or is it like which I think this is also true.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not actually about abortion it's about controlling women's bodies and like making sure that women aren't having sex or making sure that you know I don't know like I can't tell if it's an education thing or a control thing and I think it's both but.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it could be both I think a lot of the women that I know who are really pro-choice I feel like they believe they're actually saving babies by doing it.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's an educational thing because when you're in this world and this is what I think most people who haven't grown up in this or have not been in this world realize is that I never heard an alternative view on abortion.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I had only been taught really sensationalized views of it that it was murder and that Democrats wanted women to have the right to kill their baby at nine months pregnant right right like just a healthy baby on a whim.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You know and literally I believed that I believe that there were so many women just taking their baby to full term and then deciding right at the end to kill it right it's like people aren't doing that right it does not happen but when you believe that like that.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_03]: When you actually believe that that is a hard pill to swallow and so you think like oh my gosh we have to stop that that is outrageous that is wrong.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_03]: But you don't hear another like you you watch Fox News you listen to conservative radio you go to conservative churches like you are never hearing the other perspective about the abortion rates about other ways to stop abortion and so that's why like I think one way to do it is like I mean I was super political and so I would watch all the presidential debates like really the only time I would have to do it was when I was in college.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_03]: The only time I ever heard from a Democrat was presidential debates yeah interesting yeah and really the only thing I ever heard a Democrat candidate say when it came to the abortion issue and they almost always asked it was they would just say well it's a woman's right to choose and what I hear what I heard and what pro-life people here is like oh you're saying it's a woman's right to murder her baby right you know like I so I was never educated on the topic and I think it would be wise maybe I'm not a Democratic strategist.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if that if and when that topic comes up like you have to do it when you're when you have the general audience yeah most pro-life people are not going to be watching the DNC right they're not going to be watching you know an alternative moderate or left leaning news source they're only hearing the right right wing conservative media and conservative media is not going to say oh abortion rates actually go down under Democrats right so yeah but also like there's also just so many other issues that are important if you are actually wanting to

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_03]: love your neighbor and you know take care of those like the immigrants and the widows and you know there's so many other issues that we've that I especially like ignored for so long and because honestly it's easy being pro-life is easy because you just have to advocate for someone else to have a baby like you don't have to do anything but be like no you have to be pregnant like that's it's an easy thing to get behind because the stakes are

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_03]: so low like you're not losing anything in this you don't you're not taking care of that baby when it's born yep so what do you believe now and then maybe we can fill in some of the deconstruction stuff along the way but where are you now in your religious or spiritual beliefs sure well I still have Jesus I still believe in Jesus and I don't it doesn't feel the same as it used to and I don't know how to explain it and I know like I have a lot of agnostics and atheists

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: that follow me to and I am very respectful of where they landed because I know that people who deconstruct will end up in different places and I think that's beautiful yeah I guess I would say I'm probably I don't believe in hell anymore at least in like an eternal conscious torment kind of way so that makes it a lot easier to

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: like I think for so long I kept God in a really small box and now like I've just I've like found God at a drag show like I can see like the beauty of of the divine in so many different people and in so many places that the church told me was bad and just finding love and beauty in places that I shunned for so long has been a really eye opening and beautiful experience so I just I'm probably

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_03]: more of a universalist I guess if I had to put like a name on it and you can and you don't have to if you don't want to and that's the best thing about deconstructing yeah like and I think that's kind of why I don't I don't talk about my beliefs now as much one because I think belief are more fluid thing like when you learn new information your beliefs should change yes and so I'm I'm also probably a little bit having aversion to like I believe this and this is right because I don't know and I think it's just more acceptable

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_03]: accepting that faith like actual faith is accepting being uncertain and not knowing things and being okay with that and being like hey this is what I think might be true but I don't know I'm just a little human being on this planet and I don't we're on a spinning rock in a huge universe and there's a there's a lot that I will never know how has your family adjusted to your shifting beliefs or have they kind of shifted as well where does

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_03]: where do you and your relationship with your family fall yeah well so my spouse Beacher and they've another part of my story that's a whole other topic that I haven't gotten into they came out non-binary a few years ago and they've always kind of dealt with gender dysphoria that I knew of we didn't know what it was we didn't have a name for it but like I knew of their quote unquote struggle since we were dating so they've they've kind of deconstructed with me and they're very much on the same page with me now which is I'm very fortunate to have that in my marriage

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: were they Christian when you got married like were you both still like yeah when you got married we were both conservative evangelicals okay got married we got married at the hotel on Pat Robertson's campus wow school campus so that tells you anything

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03]: so yeah and then my my brothers for the most part they've come along to the very similar to where I am a little bit different I don't want to be like my gay brother but he's he's obviously very progressive and right right there with us and my other brother he's he's come a long way to he's probably still more conservative on some things but but not like not enough to where it hurts our relationship with each other and I think that's the biggest thing that I've learned

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_03]: relationship really like we're able to still agree on most things and then my mom actually lives she moved with we live in Lexington now and she moved and lives right next door to us and she's been great to like I mean it was a process and I think I terrified her a little bit when we first started deconstructing but she she's I'm really proud of her actually because she's she's lost friends because she was not a Trumper and she still really loves

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus and is it is a is still a really good sweet Christian lady but is LGBTQ affirming and unapologetically so and has lost you know relationships with some of her own family over it and it's just it's just been really moving to see her choose her children over the beliefs from what she came and so it's I'm I know that like I'm very fortunate to have that like extended families a little bit of a different

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_02]: story from some some of them have definitely blocked us and like have stopped seeing us you know and that's that's fine but I'm just very fortunate that my immediate family has is supportive that's like so beautiful to hear and I think a lot of people who I mean obviously a lot of people who are coming from situations like yours with like a very conservative you know Christian nationalist view growing up and

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_02]: up having to like have this rift with their family and so it's it's really beautiful to hear parents and siblings who have kind of come alongside or you know you were all in it together kind of deconstructing and even if it was I think about it like like layers sometimes like somebody takes a step forward and then you know it's scary for somebody else and then they kind of move up with you and yeah kind of like inching along together I also feel very fortunate with my family we didn't grow up as Christian

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_02]: nationalist as you did but but there were certainly people at my church who were like yeah very Christian nationalist so we had those views and my parents just like couldn't get on board with Trump we're never going to and I just felt so proud of them and also like so like I recognize the privilege in that that like yeah can deconstruct and know that like we aren't losing our nuclear family because of that and yeah no I know my heart really goes out I know so

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I have a lot of friends that have you know had almost had to completely lose their immediate family you know especially ones that have come out trans or or queer in some way and they like their parents have actually abandoned them and told them like you're not welcome here anymore and that that's just really tragic and that is I think anytime you're choosing dogma which is an intangible when you choose that over the flesh and blood especially when if you birthed

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_03]: that flesh and blood like that I can't imagine a world in which Jesus is like good job yeah clearly you got the message that's what I meant yeah I love your neighbor not even just your neighbor love your enemy and here we are abandoning children over beliefs and that that is something that's really tragic and something that I still feel a little like guilt over for perpetuating a narrative for so long even if I didn't know better I still cause harm

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_03]: yeah by pushing that and that's something that I'm I guess trying to rectify by now being as loud against that yeah if this question is off limits you do not have to answer how do you think your dad would have felt about like your family shifting beliefs yeah I this is something that I've wrestled with a lot because I write about my dad quite a bit in my book and it's really hard because I had a really close relationship with my dad but I you know in high

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_03]: school I was like you know I'm a very nice guy and then at the same time I realized we really bonded over a shared belief yeah and I don't I mean I go back and forth on on one hand there's a world in which he kept on keeping on and votes for Trump maybe he becomes a Trump prophet I don't I don't know I I hope not but I will say for my dad he really cared about people like

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_03]: genuinely and we can argue whether his beliefs were right or not, but he really, really had

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: a heart to help people.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I saw him spend a lot of time with unhoused people when he didn't need to.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_03]: He was one of the preachers I saw that really did practice what he preached and

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: was consistent.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_02]: You had the medical tents or them bringing doctors to people.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the work that he did and you did as a family sounds like it was genuinely helpful.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and so that's been a really hard thing for me to ... I'm not one of these people

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: that's burn it all down.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I think the system is terrible, but I think there's more nuance to just it's evil.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't want to be the other side of the same coin type thing and admitting

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: that someone had good in their heart doesn't negate the harm that was caused.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Two things can be true, but I would hope that especially if my brother had come out

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_03]: to him, which I don't know if my brother would have come out as soon as he did if

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_03]: my dad were still alive.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: There's one story that makes me think he would not have been a Trumper because

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I think my brother coming out would have really changed him.

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know how much time we have, but I'll just do the-

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_03]: We can have as much time as you want.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_03]: The Cliff Notes version.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_03]: When I was in college, so obviously I grew up in purity culture and I had vowed to

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: save myself for marriage.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I still did other things because I was human.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I found the loopholes, but I was definitely a virgin.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: My dad at some points would brag about my purity from the pulpit and he would brag

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_03]: to me too like, April, I'm so proud of you.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You're staying pure.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_03]: A guy is going to be so lucky one day.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Then when I was in college, I had just turned 21, so it was my first time drinking

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_03]: or legally, I guess.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Not that I didn't really drink a ton, but it was my first time to go out and buy a drink.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I was on a date with a guy, long story short.

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I was at a Christian college at the time and I wasn't drunk, but I didn't feel

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_03]: safe driving back at midnight and having to explain where I was.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I was a little bit tipsy, I guess.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I stayed the night with this guy, TMI.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I woke up to him assaulting me.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_03]: My dad had called me later that day and I was completely broken because I felt like

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_03]: when you hear the youth group, purity culture talks about once you have sex,

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_03]: you're damaged goods, you're the crumpled rose, you have spit in your water bottle,

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_03]: whatever, the silly chewed-up piece of gum.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Suddenly I was realizing, oh, I am all those things, but I didn't choose it

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_03]: because I was never taught about consent or anything.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It was just like this act is bad.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_03]: If you do this act, regardless if you choose to do this act,

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_03]: you are what man's going to want you.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_03]: When my dad called, I was feeling so much shame and I was blaming myself.

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_03]: My dad responded with so much grace.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_03]: He was just like, April, it's not your fault.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I love you and don't feel any shame about this.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_03]: That was a huge thing for him for so long.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_03]: My purity...

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's cringy to think that your dad would be bragging about that.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I was terrified to tell him, but I couldn't not because I was bawling

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_03]: on the phone when he called.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Just to have such a soft landing in a safe space makes me realize

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I think he would have chosen his children over dogma too.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_03]: At least that's my hope.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know though.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like too from what you've shared...

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, now we're both crying.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It seems like too from what you've shared about he was a feminist for you.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You can go do whatever you want.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_02]: To have that view for your daughters when the big C church says that women can't preach,

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_02]: That kind of thing makes me feel like he would have chosen his family over dogma and

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_02]: children over theology.

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing all of that and thank you for letting me ask.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_03]: No problem.

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's my hope too.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Honestly, we can't know.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the really hard part too about just deconstructing, especially dealing with my

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_03]: relationship with my dad and he's not here to defend himself.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I just think if anything people are just really complicated and I think we're all

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_03]: a little good and we're all a little bad and depending on the day we can do good

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_03]: or we can cause harm.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's why I'm hoping by speaking out about my story and hey, I used to

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_03]: really believe this too.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I understand why people believe what they believe because I believed it.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_03]: But to just show like there, I believe there's a better way.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a better way to love people.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's a better way to follow the teachings of Jesus if that's the

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_03]: goal but also to have a soft landing for people that change too because at

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_03]: the end of the day we want people to change for the better.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't think shaming is always the way to do it.

[00:50:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean I poke fun.

[00:50:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I poke fun at beliefs and we laugh about it.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But I try not to shame specific individuals and to try to encourage like,

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_03]: hey, maybe this isn't the best thing to do and look here's me in a wig.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Here's me making fun of this belief because I used to believe it too and

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_03]: it's okay.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean it's not okay but there's...

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I'm making any sense.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Like we're all going to be wrong at some point and so like to be able to admit it,

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_02]: to see it, to recognize it, to change when we get new information,

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: to be able to learn and grow.

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Like that's what's important.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's never too late.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's okay to admit that you were wrong.

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the world would be a much better place if we all could just be

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_03]: like, wow, that was really messed up that I did that and that I said that.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm sorry and try to be better the next day.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we got like really heavy for a minute.

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's just like...

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_02]: This is all on me.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_02]: But I do think though that like I know that there are people out there who

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_02]: have lost family members or close friends while they were still like

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_02]: hardcore believers.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And I know that it can be really hard to like hold where you are now and this

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_02]: person that you loved when you were a really strong believer and to kind of

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_02]: navigate like, I wonder what it would be like now or...

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's really helpful to share and I know other people are in

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_02]: similar situations.

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So yes, thank you for sharing.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I do really appreciate it.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_02]: To bring some levity back to the conversation before we close,

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you have like so many, I don't know, just like really funny things on

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Instagram or TikTok.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you have like a favorite or a couple favorite like things that you have

[00:52:47] [SPEAKER_02]: created or shared that you want to share about?

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'll ask you our last question.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, sure.

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I think probably my favorite one that I've done...

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, I have two, I guess two favorites.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_03]: One, do you know who Matt Chandler is?

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_03]: He's a Texas pastor.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_03]: He pastors the Village Church.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_03]: A few years ago he went viral because he would sing that like

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_03]: deconstruction.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's just like the sexy thing to do.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And so people are like what?

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_03]: No, like deconstruction is like an existential crisis.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_03]: It is many things, but it is not sexy.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't feel sexy.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So I, Beecher and I...

[00:53:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So Beecher's a filmmaker.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So they are really good at just lighting and stuff.

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I think it was actually their idea.

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And so we put white sheets all over our bedroom and Beecher brings in the

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_03]: lights and I wear like this like, you know, hot red jumpsuit.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And I literally put on fake eyelashes, which I never do, but I'm like

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_03]: camera ready, right?

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like a 90s call girl basically.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm like rolling around the bed and so I stitch deconstruction

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_03]: is sexy from Chandler and it's like deconstruction.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just being sexy.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm in like existential crisis and making all of the worst things

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_03]: about deconstruction, but just saying it really sexy.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So that one was really fun.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And I literally, it was so funny though, I had a hard time even

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_03]: posting it because I still have so much purity culture just

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_03]: ingrained in me.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, I can't be seen like on a bed on all fours being like

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: deconstruction anyway.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So fully clothed by the way, but if you would come in and

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_03]: looked in our room, it definitely looked like we were shooting

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: a porno, which we were not.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's another one.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_03]: One of my favorite series that I do that Beecher and I do

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Beecher sometimes joins me is we call it cringy Christian theater.

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And so we take some story that a pastor or some like Christian

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_03]: leader tells and reenact it.

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's this one lady actually on the Jim Baker show who told about

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_03]: some, I don't know if it was a dream or if it was real, but that like

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_03]: her husband sits up in bed and it's like not her husband because he

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_03]: wanted to have sex, I guess.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And she's like, this is not you Derek.

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And she like rips off his face and it was a reptile underneath.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But Beecher and I, we reenacted that whole thing.

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, I mean, it's fun.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's, I think when you reenact, when you act out some of the stories that

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_03]: preachers tell from the pulpit, it's like, oh yeah, that doesn't really

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_03]: make any sense.

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So I guess those are a couple of my faves.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Cool.

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I will link them in the show notes so people can find them and watch them.

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_02]: So my last question is always what kind of encouragement would you

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_02]: offer the deconstructing community now?

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And maybe could you offer encouragement to people who are coming out of

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Christian nationalism specifically?

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So for deconstructing, my advice would just be to take it slow and you don't

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_03]: have to know everything right away.

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Like you have time and it's not like, I feel like when I was deconstructing,

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I felt I had put so much pressure on myself of like, I have to

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_03]: know what I believe now because like, Oh, suddenly I don't believe these

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_03]: things and I felt the need to fill those holes with a different belief.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's okay to just not know and to, to try to find peace and, and

[00:56:10] [SPEAKER_03]: just be okay with not knowing that took like so much weight off of my shoulders.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_03]: When I just was like, you know what?

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't even if I decide, I believe these things, I think I would still

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_03]: not know at the end of the day.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's okay.

[00:56:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And also know you're not alone.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_03]: It might feel like you're alone, especially if you're deconstructing

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_03]: and no one else in your family is, but you're definitely not alone.

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's not just this generation.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been happening since the beginning of time that people have

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_03]: questioned and have doubts.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it's actually a really healthy thing.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And it shows that, you know, like the Bible even says like that

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_03]: we should be renewing our minds.

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think if anything, if, if we're not constantly reevaluating

[00:56:50] [SPEAKER_03]: what we're taught and what would we're, what we believe that we're

[00:56:53] [SPEAKER_03]: doing ourselves a disservice and then for Christian nationalism, I would just

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_03]: recommend if, if in doubt and if you start to feel gaslit by the people

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_03]: around you being like, no, if you're a Christian, you should vote Republican.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, obviously God chose Trump or, you know, whatever the narrative is.

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, the thing that grounded me was honestly just reading the words of

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus, going back to the gospels and reading the red letters because the

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_03]: teachings of Jesus are so opposite Christian nationalism, like you, you

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_03]: hear the Sean foights of the world and Mike Johnson's and Franklin Graham's,

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, wanting to fight for our rights and it's our freedoms.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And Jesus was not about that.

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Jesus was about laying your life down for your brother and for

[00:57:37] [SPEAKER_03]: turning the other cheek and for laying down your weapons and

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_03]: for loving your enemies.

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And like, I mean, Jesus willingly went to be crucified and he didn't

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_03]: ask his disciples to storm the capital of Rome to overturn, you

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_03]: know, so I, that, that would just be my advice if you, if, because

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_03]: there were times I felt crazy and I felt like, oh my God, I'm the only one.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm the only one thinking this.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I mean, I had people tell me that my late father would

[00:58:06] [SPEAKER_03]: be disappointed in me because I didn't vote for Trump or that I was

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_03]: literally going against the will of God because of this and just go back

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_03]: to the scriptures and also like America's not in the Bible, like

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_03]: we're, we're not a main player.

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_03]: If we were as important as we think we are, I think we would have been mentioned.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's my advice.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a really, it's a really good point.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_02]: We're not a main player.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_03]: We're not, we are not the main character.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I love that.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.

[00:58:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And last thing, where can we find your book and obviously

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_02]: where can we find you?

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Okay.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So, um, my book comes out October 1st and pre-orders actually

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_03]: really, really help out.

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you are interested in buying it, you can pre-order it really anywhere.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Books are sold.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Bards and noble Amazon audible.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_03]: There's the, there's an audio book and Kindle edition.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And you read the, you narrate the audio book.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I do.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I, I narrate it.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_02]: I love listening to an audio book when the author narrates it.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's my favorite way to consume a book.

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yay.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And then I feel like, I mean, I don't know if I did a good job or not, but

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I literally like laugh a couple of times and like, oh, that was funny.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's always a good sign.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It was like, okay, I'm not, this wasn't terrible.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so yeah.

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but yeah, pre-order wherever, um, books are sold.

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_03]: It's called star spangled Jesus.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you just want to follow me, I am at April a joy.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a J O Y on tick-tock Facebook threads, Instagram.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm still on Twitter.

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm slowly migrating away.

[00:59:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Maybe I don't know.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm still there for now.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Just, you know, keep an eye on where you're the only, the only, uh,

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_03]: social media I am not on is truth.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Social.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So probably a good idea.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_03]: You won't find me there.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I do.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I do have a burner account on there though, just to keep an eye on that.

[00:59:59] [SPEAKER_03]: That place is insane at this total sidebar, but, um, yeah, I also co-host

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_03]: weekly recaps on Fridays with the new evangelicals.

[01:00:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So we basically just like recap the week of evangelical Christian

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_03]: nationalism politics, but from a progressive Christian point of view.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Cool.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Amazing.

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll link it all in the show notes so people can find you can pre-order your

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_02]: book and yeah, thank you so much for being here.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[01:00:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists.

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: If you enjoyed this episode or any others, please follow, subscribe, rate,

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_02]: or review the podcast wherever you listen.

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can share this episode with a friend who might enjoy

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[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_02]: As always, you can find me over on Instagram at hello underscore

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: deconstructionists where together we are building community after

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: evangelicalism one story at a time.

[01:01:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And when this sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your head, I

[01:01:11] [SPEAKER_02]: hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, to you for listening.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_02]: See you next time.