S2 E4: UnCULTured with Daniella Mestyanek Young

[00:00:01] is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:07] Now, just think of deconstruction and this analogy of like you're in the Rapunzel Eugene

[00:00:12] Cave and you can like see the light but there's all these rocks and you have to like pick

[00:00:17] up each one and pick it up over your head and deal with it and probably name it but

[00:00:23] then you can put it down behind you right and then each one like you're getting closer

[00:00:27] and closer you're getting more light in, you're getting more air and finally like that pile

[00:00:32] of rocks is still going to be there but it's going to be behind you and then you're going

[00:00:36] to be able to just like go live your life.

[00:01:11] Hello Deconstructionists this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:01:15] share our stories and experiences of leaving high-control religion along with what it's been

[00:01:20] like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves. I

[00:01:25] hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most

[00:01:29] of all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved and you

[00:01:33] are worthy just as you are.

[00:01:35] Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:01:40] My guest today is Daniella Mestanak-Young who is a scholar of cults, extreme groups and

[00:01:46] extremely bad leadership. Daniella is the author of Uncultured, a critically acclaimed

[00:01:51] memoir of growing up in the children of God cult and then going into the cult of the

[00:01:54] US Army. Daniella holds a master's in organizational psychology from Harvard and is working on

[00:02:00] a second book called The Culting of America. Daniella uses she her pronouns, you might

[00:02:08] think she's fantastic and I'm so so so excited to have her on the podcast. So Daniella thank

[00:02:13] you so much for being here.

[00:02:14] Yeah thank you so much for having me. Anyone that's this energized about talking about

[00:02:19] my book is like my type of people. And you're also a knitter too.

[00:02:23] Yes, I love knitting. We were just like talking about all of our knitting supplies

[00:02:27] and what we love to knit. Okay my favorite designer is Andrea Mowry. I don't know

[00:02:32] if you knit any of her stuff. She has a lot of like cool shawls and stuff so she

[00:02:38] has cool patterns to check out for any knitters out there. Do you like design

[00:02:41] your own things? I feel like that's your vibe. Mostly I do now. Okay yeah you know

[00:02:45] I've been through quite the journey so when I you know I learned how to knit in a

[00:02:49] cult when I was five. Apparently I'd already been begging for quite a while

[00:02:53] when she taught me when I was five. And kind of did it off and on when we had

[00:02:57] supplies but then in college I took a learning test and the teacher told me

[00:03:02] that I was quite different learning style and it was body kinesic and it

[00:03:07] was learning through movement. Okay immediately I was like up and I went out

[00:03:11] and I bought a book stand and I bought a pair of knitting needles and I just knitted

[00:03:14] my way through college, knitted my way through the army. That's amazing so this

[00:03:19] has been like a thing for you for a long time. Forever yeah and then when I got

[00:03:24] pregnant I was like okay I'm gonna start making clothes and so then that's

[00:03:27] when I did a lot of patterns and then I started making them for myself but

[00:03:31] now I'm really designing a lot of my own things like I thought for years on

[00:03:35] what to do with scarves because I have so many scarves but I got like a big scarf

[00:03:39] wearer and I was like what can I turn it into and just through making basic

[00:03:45] cardigans, jackets off of patterns I was like oh it's a rectangle and too

[00:03:50] thinner rectangles and sleeves so I invented a thing I call the scarf again

[00:03:54] because I take a scarf and I turn it into a cardigan. But yeah and just like I

[00:04:00] do jewelry right like crochet jewelry like a collar that you wear and I call

[00:04:06] that the descent collars because cults don't want us to be unique and then I

[00:04:10] do cuffs and bracelets that are the exit cost cuffs. Amazing. Crochet earrings

[00:04:15] that are the love bomb earrings and this really cool shaggy knitted coat that

[00:04:20] kind of looks like Taylor Swift's Karma jacket and those are the cult coats.

[00:04:24] Okay that's amazing if you haven't watched Daniela's videos on Instagram or

[00:04:30] TikTok or all the places she is always saying beautiful things wonderful

[00:04:34] things while she's knitting just like never looking at her knitting. Eye contact

[00:04:39] with the camera well she's like knitting so fast it's amazing so if you

[00:04:42] haven't seen her stuff you have to go look. So alright Daniela can you tell

[00:04:47] us a little bit about the cult that you grew up in and before we dive into

[00:04:51] that actually I do want to give a little disclaimer. Daniela grew up in

[00:04:59] Christianity and stuff thrown in there so we will I'm sure be talking quite a

[00:05:05] bit about rape and child sex which is rape and just a lot of horrific things

[00:05:11] so I want to give that trigger warning at the beginning because I do want this

[00:05:15] to be a space where you can share your story freely but it also comes with

[00:05:20] a lot of a lot of really dark content. So if that's not what you're up for

[00:05:25] today you can save it for another day take care of yourself but knowing that

[00:05:30] we can jump in. Okay so Daniela can you tell us a little bit about the Children

[00:05:33] of God cult which you described as evangelical with a hot fudge topping of

[00:05:37] Mormonism and I loved that little description but there's so much more

[00:05:42] to it so tell us about what it was like growing up in that. Yeah so I always

[00:05:46] say it was you know love faith in Jesus and then religious prostitution

[00:05:50] pedophilia and constantly preparing for the apocalypse throughout its 50 year

[00:05:55] journey was kind of like how it went so first of all it came out of like

[00:06:00] evangelical Christian tradition and our leader's mother was a big evangelist

[00:06:06] preacher revivalist preacher in the 30s so he's coming out of that into late

[00:06:12] 60s early 70s right which is the era of just new movements popping up and all

[00:06:17] of these cults and all of these alternate groups so he sees his

[00:06:21] opportunity and so what I described then is he needed something to differentiate

[00:06:25] himself so he took like evangelical purity culture and control of sex and he

[00:06:30] flipped it and he called it free love and I call it forced polyamory and then

[00:06:36] I never knew about the Mormonism but you know since I've been out of the

[00:06:41] call for 20 years and especially doing all the deconstructing and I always

[00:06:45] used to wonder like why I have so much in common with or miss and so two things

[00:06:52] one is I truly believe the purity culture and pedophilia culture are the same

[00:06:57] thing right it's why are you obsessed with the sexuality of these children

[00:07:01] but also I learned that David Burke who was our leader had taken a lot of

[00:07:07] teachings from Mormonism as well when he was like building his worldview

[00:07:11] which is what all these co-leaders do so in the late 60s right he starts

[00:07:17] recruiting all of these hippies off of the beaches of California my

[00:07:22] grandfather ends up joining who's from LA he was post college and he had a bad

[00:07:27] LSD trip where he met Satan and so the next day he was sitting in a park with

[00:07:32] his head in his hands right wondering what he was going to do with his life

[00:07:36] as one does after they meet Satan and up walk happy smiley guitar playing

[00:07:42] children of God right and so he goes off into this group that builds itself as

[00:07:47] kind of this band of brothers and sisters just trying to win the world for

[00:07:52] Jesus in the end of days right and then his girlfriend my grandmother

[00:07:57] joins from Texas and my great-grandmother is so happy that her

[00:08:02] troubled daughter has gone off with these Jesus people that she gives him a house

[00:08:06] she gives a profit house and so this kind of also helped my family be in like the

[00:08:12] in-in group because of course property matters to everyone and then my

[00:08:17] grandfather became this the CPA for the group still runs the money today

[00:08:21] I think it's about 10 years in right so about a decade in that he starts

[00:08:27] using the women of the group as religious prostitutes you know it's all

[00:08:33] based on this Bible verse I will make you fishers of men in Matthew and like they

[00:08:38] were not subtle about it and when I say like one of the like I always say

[00:08:44] sex cult is not actually a category but children of God I think is absolutely a

[00:08:50] sex cult because everything was about sex and you could not be in that

[00:08:56] organization without knowing about like all the sexual stuff right for example I

[00:09:02] grew up with a freaking cartoon graphic of just a naked woman the giant fish hook

[00:09:08] coming through her chest and these were heavens harlots heavens hookers hookers

[00:09:14] for Christ wow themselves and flirty fishing is the name that like you know

[00:09:20] gets used the most by the media which by the way funny thing about hookers

[00:09:25] right so then later on we're going to meet my husband who is a Chinook helicopter

[00:09:30] pilot and the Chinook helicopters specifically are the ones that sling

[00:09:34] load or the ones that hook other material and fly with them and they can

[00:09:39] carry another one of themselves so they call themselves hookers and they have

[00:09:43] all kinds of funny t-shirts about it but now I'm a master crocheter so I'm

[00:09:49] still the best hooker has been a thread that it's

[00:09:54] common through the whole story in so many ways so early days of the group also

[00:10:01] my mother is born and by the time that birds sexual teachings are starting to

[00:10:10] really really become a big thing and my grandmother is worried because she has

[00:10:15] three little daughters and so she says she's out and then she just never saw

[00:10:20] her oldest daughter again my mom and her dad were just spirited away and so it

[00:10:26] does comfort me that at least some people that I'm related to did leave when

[00:10:31] it got bad the daughter of the one that didn't

[00:10:35] and she didn't like have a choice to not leave right this was and I don't

[00:10:40] think this is in your book I think I heard this on a different podcast that

[00:10:43] you were on that they had sort of prayed for her it was sort of this

[00:10:47] like gift that God gave yes no this is in my book and so I kind of get pregnant

[00:10:53] my grandmother and of course they're praying all the time she probably wasn't

[00:10:57] trying for that long but she did this Hannah promise that like God if you give

[00:11:03] me a child I will give him back to you and so this was the story that we

[00:11:08] were told right like we were told growing up that the reason my mom stayed

[00:11:12] in the family which is what we call ourselves was because her mom had given

[00:11:16] her to God you know taken the other kids but left her for God but then when I as a

[00:11:23] teenager outside the cult got to know my relatives in Dallas I heard the other

[00:11:28] story which was Tom and Christie were just gone and I believe that one because

[00:11:34] that was the policy of the children of God was like you do anything you need

[00:11:40] to keep the children including a parental kidnapping and spiriting away to

[00:11:45] another country and at this time she's about six years old and they're

[00:11:49] literally going to live in Switzerland so that they can do Switzerland things

[00:11:54] with money right and my father can have grandfather can set that up so then

[00:11:59] my mom is in this first group of children that is being described it

[00:12:04] as raising sexually liberated children right and this is where you hear the

[00:12:09] really bad things about the children of God like he had his own son not

[00:12:15] technically his son because he was the first flirty fishing baby they called

[00:12:19] Jesus babies but he had that kid raised as a sexually liberated child and in

[00:12:25] doing so they created what has been called the worst cult artifact of all

[00:12:31] times which is a 762 page book the Davidito book that is like literally

[00:12:37] a how-to guide of Catapheria really really tragic and so my mom is coming up

[00:12:42] in this world where everything is about sex and kids are just around for all of

[00:12:47] it being treated as if that's normal and of course then the abuse just gets

[00:12:51] worse and worse and worse by the time my mom is 13 the prophet had summoned

[00:12:57] 14 little girls to himself like 14 girls between the ages of three and

[00:13:02] 14 one of which is his daughter and one of which is his granddaughter and he

[00:13:07] marries them he has this like symbolic marriage where he marries them and

[00:13:12] definitely has you know sexual contact with all of them but my mom wasn't like

[00:13:18] actually married to the prophet right like it was the symbolic ceremony and

[00:13:22] then I mean my whole life my mom wore the wedding ring on her finger and she's

[00:13:26] very very proud of it and by the way the three-year-old's mother

[00:13:31] organized the wedding ceremony right so like this was the level of crazy at the

[00:13:37] same time this is happening in your leadership circles right and like you

[00:13:41] still have a 10,000 person army out there that believes they're just like

[00:13:45] God's army till the end of days and we were basically just the evangelical

[00:13:51] version of Jehovah's Witnesses or something so my mom by the time she's

[00:13:56] 14 is impregnated by her dad's boss who's 39 years old and yes my father is

[00:14:03] older than my grandfather. Wow okay that is called math. That's like your

[00:14:09] grandfather's boss who is your mom's no who is your dad yeah that is like the

[00:14:17] prophet prophet like the main prophet? No so he was like the he was I've been

[00:14:23] told he was the only person who ever knew where all the money came from and all

[00:14:28] the money went to okay so he was that level of important like he was the top

[00:14:32] three in the top three circle around the prophet at all times okay and then my

[00:14:36] grandfather worked for him as a CPA and my grandfather now is the one that

[00:14:41] runs the money. The other guy has been dead for a while. Okay so first of all

[00:14:47] you know they're like oh teenagers can get pregnant you know and but

[00:14:52] they kind of freak out because now this is proof right you see pregnant 14 year

[00:14:59] old girl or 15 year old with baby right this is proof right we remember the

[00:15:04] Texas raid that was done on the FLDS cult and they had all these underage

[00:15:09] girls with babies so you know they definitely hid the dude even more and

[00:15:15] my mom ended up getting married off to an 18 year old and she's 16 by the

[00:15:20] time she's 20 that is done and we are moved to Brazil where she is then

[00:15:25] quickly married to a man 20 years older than her who had nine children before

[00:15:31] and oh by the way I have 25 siblings in cult math. Yeah and so an interesting

[00:15:39] thing happens in the 80s though and in the 80s like this cult is in Time

[00:15:43] Magazine right full on harem photo what profit with whitebeard 13 scantily

[00:15:49] clad women and it is just known as a sex cult and then comes like the second

[00:15:54] biggest whitewashing of all time of maybe other than the Mormons because by the

[00:15:59] 1990s we've performed twice in the White House and also performed for the

[00:16:04] president of Brazil and so basically when AIDS came around and right at the

[00:16:11] time really nobody knew what it was he was like oh okay we got to stop the

[00:16:16] religious prostitution and go completely insular so now nobody can have any kind

[00:16:23] of extended contact with someone who's not in the in the group especially not

[00:16:28] sexual contact except for all the ones that they kept because they were

[00:16:32] important like there's this big good this guy who was really high up in

[00:16:37] Brazil's like FBI and was very corrupt and would donate these huge like golf

[00:16:43] course type parcels of land for us to have our communes on and so he got to

[00:16:48] keep sleeping with his baby mama of eight children his whole life just as a kind

[00:16:55] of other family over there so wow but the big whitewash that they did is they

[00:17:01] just stopped doing the religious prostitution and they started doing child

[00:17:06] entertainment just like industry right so one of the things is the children

[00:17:12] of God net has pulled in a lot of good musicians and performers but also has

[00:17:19] pulled in Jeremy Spencer of Fleetwood Mac one of the founding members of Fleetwood

[00:17:24] Mac who is a very good musician and hand artist by the way so a lot of like he

[00:17:31] worked very closely with my stepdad who was also a musician and an artist and

[00:17:36] so at this point they just start doing music right religious music and then

[00:17:41] they start doing childhood entertainment videos both religious and not so I mean

[00:17:47] I I before the age of one and performing in these videos before the age of two that

[00:17:53] on the book cover that is me at the age of two dressed as a soldier of love

[00:17:57] performing so I have all that child actor trauma as well we just never got

[00:18:03] paid for it I just say they made me the little apocalypse Lindsay Lohan

[00:18:07] there's definitely a video of me and six other white children wrapping apocalypse

[00:18:12] Bible verses on the downtown streets of downtown Rio wow yeah I used to show this

[00:18:19] to my soldiers I would be like no I mean real cult watch this but the thing is

[00:18:25] we actually produce like really top-of-the-line stuff and sold millions

[00:18:31] and millions of this all over the world because now they're making a product

[00:18:36] and remember they have a 10,000 person army right but you know way after I was

[00:18:42] out and already studying cults and I heard Dr. Daniel Lala she's a super expert on

[00:18:47] cults say that cults are always about labor like I immediately understood my

[00:18:53] life so much differently and like that's really what it was it just became

[00:18:58] a worldwide child trafficking organization and really I think this is one of the

[00:19:03] kinds of child trafficking that is very very overlooked right which is like the

[00:19:08] shiny happy American religious kids being trafficked around the world for churches

[00:19:15] and organizations I mean when Mormons go on their missionary trips they have

[00:19:18] their passports held like that's in the international definition of trafficking

[00:19:23] you know but I did not know that oh my god I'm sure you're gonna hear from

[00:19:28] tons of people they're like that didn't happen but trust me when I say

[00:19:31] hundreds of people have told me that it happened to them on their trips right like so yeah

[00:19:37] like our lives growing up in the 90s like we're just a workforce right from

[00:19:42] everything from cleaning to childcare to cooking I mean by the time I'm 11 I am

[00:19:47] basically just turned into the full-time kitchen slave which is a job I do till

[00:19:52] I get kicked out when I'm 15 but we're also we're all performing and

[00:19:57] singing and dancing and out on the streets like being used as a sales force it just

[00:20:04] like I don't know I describe it as a religious prison camp really was what you

[00:20:09] know this type of life was institutionalized you know I only spent an hour

[00:20:13] a day with my mom until I was 10 years old that only changed because the

[00:20:18] communes got smaller and she became the one who was the teacher but like we

[00:20:22] were completely broken off from our families were raised in dorms

[00:20:26] I mean it was basically like growing up in an institution except your parents are

[00:20:31] there and you see them every day but they really have very little to do with your

[00:20:37] life it's actually one of the things on the healing side that is the hardest

[00:20:42] is my mom is such a lovely person and I'm just so absolutely so furious that I

[00:20:47] missed that you know yeah um of course we're gonna be in an old folks home

[00:20:52] together in a nursing home what do they call this in a nursing home

[00:20:55] together right she's gonna be 90 and I'm gonna be 75 and we're just gonna be

[00:20:59] like leading the knitting circle and all the best stories like we're gonna be

[00:21:03] fabulous I'm hoping I get like 15 years with her at you know the other side of

[00:21:09] life or something yeah I love that you have like this relationship with your

[00:21:13] mom has healed in such a beautiful way which I'm sure we can come come back

[00:21:17] to when we're sort of at the end of your story but like it just makes me

[00:21:21] so happy because it's like it's clear from your story that your mom wanted time

[00:21:26] with you you know like she snuck out to teach you how to read and to read with

[00:21:31] you and to have more time with you and it seems like it was so strategic on the

[00:21:36] on the leadership like the cult leaderships part to give parents like one

[00:21:42] hour a day with their kids so that like they couldn't ask too many questions

[00:21:46] or like that one hour would be taken away I would imagine but they didn't

[00:21:50] have enough to actually build a relationship with you or to like

[00:21:53] tell you like yes yes ask questions keep reading like keep going Danielle you've

[00:21:58] got it you know it was like they gave you just enough

[00:22:00] to keep you in line and I will say you know on the

[00:22:04] the deconstruction side like that's one of the reasons I have a good

[00:22:08] relationship with my mom is because she just believed me she just

[00:22:11] understood right first of all that I didn't blame her she was born in it

[00:22:15] too but that like what I said my life was was what my life was because she didn't

[00:22:21] know she didn't see me you know when I'm right 10 hours in a basement with

[00:22:27] uncle Jerry pedophile former famous musician right like she's no idea about

[00:22:33] any of that right yeah and for context all the

[00:22:37] like male male leadership were called uncles and all the female leadership

[00:22:43] aunties auntie yeah yeah and then because burr the the first generation who joined the

[00:22:48] cult called him dad and then we called him grandpa and then his wife was mama

[00:22:54] everyone called her mama and this is really important right and then when

[00:22:57] they rebranded they named themselves the family first it was the family then

[00:23:01] it was the family of love and there was the family international I don't play

[00:23:04] that game unless I want to manipulate the words the family because I don't give

[00:23:08] them the right to just rebrand themselves and walk away

[00:23:11] but this use of familial language while breaking families apart like this is

[00:23:19] part of how the cult breaks you right and like when you are coming in this

[00:23:24] is a period called identity breaking indoctrination right and they need to

[00:23:29] like break you down from being an individual and

[00:23:33] there's a lot of important things they're taking your name

[00:23:36] using isolation but never alone right lack of privacy

[00:23:40] a lot of it is just I mean there's a reason I recognized it again in US Army

[00:23:45] basic training on day one because I was like oh I've seen this and then I was

[00:23:49] like okay cool I'm gonna be better at this than everyone else because like I

[00:23:52] never had a day of privacy in my life yeah but just you know I always tell

[00:23:56] people like anything that calls itself your family wants to overwork you

[00:24:00] underpay you and expect you to put up with more BS than you would otherwise

[00:24:04] you know because like it is just and I always want to caveat this and say patriarchal family

[00:24:11] language not there are of course indigenous traditions that have a completely different

[00:24:17] concept of family right but in the this patriarchal family tradition right where the father is

[00:24:23] the head of the household and everyone serves them and you know this was just

[00:24:28] over exaggerated you know another thing cults always do is really enforce gender roles

[00:24:34] not always but you know very very often because it's just part of behavior policing and of course

[00:24:40] because coercive control is also patriarchal in my mind what is it you want to me direct

[00:24:46] and sign myself too I was born here almost 60 years ago I'm not gonna live another 60 years

[00:24:52] you always told me it takes time it's taken my father's time my mother's time

[00:24:58] my uncle's time my brother's and my sister's time my nieces and my nephews time how much

[00:25:03] time do you want for your progress I hate black people things are going to get worse before they

[00:25:16] get better what is presented to me as an American does not look like me because you're not allowed

[00:25:22] to be a black man in corporate America you give us a hard time for being white and being American

[00:25:27] and being in control when you live under a situation like that constantly and then you ask me you

[00:25:34] know whether I approve of violence I mean that just doesn't make any sense at all yeah there's

[00:25:40] a lot of crazy stuff happening right now and you know what we need a space where we can debrief

[00:25:44] some of it and deconstruct if you've been looking for a poc centered podcast that engages

[00:25:50] with intersectionality religion critical race theory and some hip hop culture then you need to

[00:25:56] check out profane faith I'll be your host Daniel white hodge and we go in every other week so check

[00:26:03] us out wherever you find your podcasts or check us out at white hodge podcast dot com to see what

[00:26:09] other platforms we're on cool I peace

[00:26:18] subscribe to this podcast by visiting dauntless dot fm okay when you're a kid you like saw through

[00:26:26] the bullshit I feel like by the time you were like six years old and I mean maybe maybe not

[00:26:32] explicitly but like you were asking so many questions and you know I think about this

[00:26:36] like telephone game that you played in school and by the end of the telephone game the original

[00:26:42] message was a total mess as it always is and you said something along the lines of like

[00:26:49] but the bible was written by like people who passed it down like telephone at first like

[00:26:54] that can't be accurate there must be mistakes in here and I literally just piped up and I said

[00:27:00] well then how can the bible be true if it was passed down by word of mouth for 500 years

[00:27:05] by the way today was my my third graders meet the teacher day and if you want to guess who's hand

[00:27:11] popped up four times with questions um every time I see teachers that like the local watering hole

[00:27:21] and I buy them a drink and they're like whose parent are you and I say my kid's name and they're

[00:27:25] like oh she is exactly me but raised outside of a cult um but also like I think I've just always

[00:27:35] been shelled in right from big bang theory and like young shelled in if you've seen that where he

[00:27:39] just like he's what eight when the show starts and he's just like no god's not real you know like

[00:27:45] I I just don't think that I've ever believed in anything like I literally actually sell a

[00:27:52] t-shirt in my shop that says I'm just a neurodivergent atheist born to religious extremists

[00:27:57] you know and I definitely have this moment when I'm six right because when I say that

[00:28:03] I am drug off to punishment in a basement um and you know I'm there for 10 hours um and it's really

[00:28:12] really horrible of course I mean it is torture it is everything um I also learned that I'm really

[00:28:18] good at disassociating when I wrote my book because people were like you're really good at

[00:28:22] describing disassociation and I was like oh is that what it is my readers also suggest are the

[00:28:29] ones that suggested to me that I was neurodivergent um definitely 100 now so that was nice to know

[00:28:36] but I just yeah I just think for me it was logical patterns you know like you're telling me this but

[00:28:42] then this thing doesn't make sense you know like and so I just kind of went along with it you

[00:28:48] know like and I always was just a bad fit right like like cults have no room for the neurodivergent

[00:28:56] or the different right like you are supposed to boil yourself down and always be quiet and my mother

[00:29:03] was good at it my mother's personality was the go along to get a long kid and I just wasn't

[00:29:09] I actually think it's kind of unfortunate that the ones that write the books are usually the

[00:29:14] ones that were the bad kid from the you know according to the cult because I think there's

[00:29:20] another side of the story that we miss of course yeah that's such an interesting point

[00:29:25] but yeah but when this like very significant like breaking event happened to me and by the way that was

[00:29:32] not the first time right that's just the one we wrote about but I do remember in in one of these

[00:29:37] events just being like yeah I'm done like if this is God I don't want God you know and I literally

[00:29:44] remember thinking to myself like if which I a question I ask and TJ at the end of this chapter

[00:29:50] is like if you're not in the children of God are you going to hell and I literally remember being

[00:29:55] like well hell's gonna suck but you know like I'm just not doing it I'm just not doing it but

[00:30:02] the problem for me was and when we talk about you know power dynamics like if you're born third

[00:30:10] generation or further into a cult like you have no link to the outside world right you know

[00:30:17] my grandparents are in the cult so most of my peers can grow up and escape back to their grandparents

[00:30:25] who gladly take them in because they lost their children 30 years earlier to a cult

[00:30:31] and at least have somewhere to go right where I thought I just had to stay till I was 18

[00:30:39] which is kind of funny I was I was I think I was making a video about this and I was like so my

[00:30:44] dream was running away to this compound in India that was run by my grandparents I'm like oh so I

[00:30:52] still had the same dream of running away to grandparents I just had no context for like

[00:30:58] because you're not from birth that the outside the system you guys are evil right so it's really

[00:31:04] I think I express it in one chapter in uncultured where I say you know I was as afraid I would

[00:31:10] have to go as I was that I would have to stay right you know and that's even something later on so

[00:31:17] by the time I get kicked out I'm 15 and you know my parents help me they they arrange a person for

[00:31:25] me to stay with and they physically take me there I know I was kind of surprised by that well

[00:31:31] well and my mom was different like my mom you know the reason I got away was because of my mom

[00:31:37] but it was interesting talking about it as I was deconstructing a writing the book because she's like

[00:31:43] but when you said you wanted to go we helped you and I was like yeah mom you did but I was a 15 year

[00:31:51] old thrown out of everything I knew with zero dollars and sent to a stranger even in a different

[00:31:58] country and then expected to manage school and feeding yourself and getting yourself everywhere

[00:32:05] and figuring out passports and social security numbers and all of that expected to figure all

[00:32:10] of that out on your own and that is what is really really hard you know of course one thing I

[00:32:17] acknowledge is like of course I had white privilege right I walked right into that in the US from day

[00:32:22] one and never knew honestly why people treated me so well for a long time but one of like the

[00:32:30] hidden things was it just like I didn't have the language to describe my experiences and the

[00:32:37] teachers couldn't understand right so for example the first test I take on a scantron I take it with

[00:32:44] pen because I have no idea that I'm not supposed to but one of my tests come back and it's a zero

[00:32:51] and I walk up to the teacher to ask what happened like to them I'm a 16 year old American kid

[00:32:58] right like why am I pretending that I don't know how a scantron works right because we've been doing

[00:33:05] scantron since we were in third grade you know right so oh my god when I read the book educated

[00:33:11] and she talks about how she didn't know how to fill out a bubble sheet and I mean literally I saw

[00:33:16] some reviews that were like oh come on nobody's that blah blah blah whatever and I was like no

[00:33:21] that was the detail right that like really spoke to me right and it's just you know I think this for

[00:33:30] for cult babies all the time I say that like you know if you were raised in any way being held

[00:33:36] back from the world that you were growing up in like you're not from that culture

[00:33:41] you know and being a hidden immigrant can be really really difficult especially for me with the

[00:33:49] the neurodiversity because it's like I look like one thing and then when I'm not that thing people can

[00:33:56] get like viscerally angry at me and that's why developing the wacky clothes it's helpful

[00:34:03] yeah you want to talk about the wacky clothes now oh sure yeah she has like super cool wacky

[00:34:09] clothes and I love them and they're just like bright and colorful and fun and amazing

[00:34:15] so yeah why do you wear them what is up in life for you okay so one of the things I realized in

[00:34:21] the process of writing the book and deconstructing was just like oh I never got to form a personal

[00:34:28] identity that's what happens when you grow up in a group like that and so one thing I find

[00:34:36] is like once you can put it words to it it's like okay now I can go form an identity but

[00:34:43] even before that what was funny was when I sold my book my first thought like okay now I have some

[00:34:50] financial freedom and like I can work on my projects and be a creator and my first thought was like

[00:34:55] I'm gonna wear whatever I want for the rest of my life yeah my first thought of freedom and by the

[00:35:00] way appearance control right huge part of cults huge part of the army I started with earrings

[00:35:06] actually because that was like something for me that I was like couldn't do it in the cult

[00:35:10] couldn't do it in the army so I have I mean hundreds and hundreds of big crazy earrings

[00:35:16] and now I'm really just becoming like a clothes designer and I love bright color and I love a

[00:35:22] thrift store and I just kind of put it together but one of the things I've realized so first of

[00:35:28] all I love it for people who are deconstructing from you know heavy coercive groups to like

[00:35:34] please go wear wacky outfits in public you know because it's part of like reminding yourself

[00:35:41] that you're the adult in charge of your own life you know and I remember this moment when my kid

[00:35:47] was two and I was walking out of the kid thrift store with a arm full of princess dresses right

[00:35:54] and I was kind of like berating myself because I didn't get her any useful clothes and then I

[00:36:02] wouldn't you dress like a princess every day and then that became my question like why wouldn't I do

[00:36:07] it yeah so by the way through myself a huge princess party for my 36th birthday it was so fun

[00:36:13] it was like 30 women we basically threw ourselves a wedding with no men

[00:36:18] except for the man who dressed up as a prince and served us enchanted wine okay amazing

[00:36:23] co-writers husband but yeah having just like having these moments and then I was like I have

[00:36:29] no reason to dress boring so I never will and what I've realized that I've developed is that thing

[00:36:36] that I talked about where like when I was honestly trying really hard to look like Barbie trying

[00:36:42] really hard to pass as just like the typical American girl next door but then people would

[00:36:50] meet me especially men that I dated and then be like just like very upset and disappointed

[00:36:55] and I just like started developing shortcuts like oh you want to take me to dinner okay Ethiopian

[00:37:00] food or like let's go salsa dancing this is one of the ways I knew my husband was a good guy because

[00:37:05] I told him about my love of salsa dancing he just looked at me and he said I can build you a dance

[00:37:10] floor and I was like oh my gosh we're gonna get married and he did build you a dance floor

[00:37:14] and he did yeah he said he'd build me a dance bar for my wedding and he did but that I'm in the

[00:37:22] cult of Te Te what I was saying was that now you know when I am dressed with incredibly colorful

[00:37:31] clothes that I crocheted myself and I'm literally standing there knitting at a cocktail party

[00:37:37] like nobody expects that to be a normal competition so it's just great you know and it's just kind

[00:37:44] of become you know and a lot of people that leave high control groups do this right like I make

[00:37:49] I was telling you about my shaggy coat coat but I also make it in best form and I call it the X

[00:37:54] Mormon because even if it's helical they need you to see their shoulders

[00:38:00] so it could just be very very empowering I think to just like remind yourself like you are the

[00:38:07] driver of your own life you can make every decision there's no right or wrong way to like live life

[00:38:13] so that's my thing with wacky outfits so go wear some wacky clothes and also I tell

[00:38:19] I sell tons of fiber arts crafts right now ooh I find great joy in the fact that I make as much money

[00:38:26] with my Harvard degree as I do knitting that's actually amazing

[00:38:43] you leave the cult you're in the system as they call the secular world and you're kind

[00:38:50] of navigating life there how do you end up like going off to college like what is how do you

[00:38:56] end up in that journey yeah so while I'm in high school I honestly first of all when I was like 16 or

[00:39:04] 17 I remember asking someone where they were going to college and they said that they were not

[00:39:08] and it just broke my brain because I didn't know there was a choice honestly I was just like yeah

[00:39:14] you go to high school and you go to college I was talking once through a pretty privileged

[00:39:18] friend with an MBA parents with an MBA and she was like actually that's pretty similar to growing up

[00:39:22] in my house because I didn't realize like by the time I realized I had a choice to not go to graduate

[00:39:27] school like I was already going to graduate school you know it was already time to go on that path

[00:39:33] but I actually knew there was really no chance of me going straight to college and I was looking

[00:39:38] at the military of course the Marines because they are the cult of the military um and you

[00:39:47] instead what happens is this big murder suicide happens which is the poor little boy who we talked

[00:39:53] about that was the son of the founder and it was just horribly horribly raised goes on

[00:40:00] what he hopes to be a much larger killing spree but finds he has a hard time killing anybody

[00:40:05] even the woman who like abused him as a child his whole life so he takes his own life and like

[00:40:12] this is on television I'm 17 years old you know I've been out of the the cult for two years but

[00:40:18] this is the first time I'm like hearing it on tv like children of god cult children of god cult

[00:40:24] because of course that word was a nathamata us right and I'm like oh my god and then by the

[00:40:32] way my next thought was like that's why we talk so often about why we're not a cult so was

[00:40:44] to say like we're not a cult because like when you see like we're not a cult on the f a q of a

[00:40:53] run get away yeah um so I write this essay which by the way I just found the other day

[00:41:00] and it was definitely not titled what I said it was title um but I write this essay which is

[00:41:08] is pretty apologetic about the cult but still it's like I grew up a cult I was on my own at 15

[00:41:14] and like here I am I want to do something and I get not only a bunch of scholarships but the

[00:41:19] attention more importantly the attention of my counselor who had a thousand students by the way

[00:41:25] right it was a 4 000 student school with four counselors and she decides she's gonna help me

[00:41:31] you know and she gets like not only all of her resources but everyone all four of the

[00:41:36] counselors resources to try to help me you know I get on financial aid while I'm in high school

[00:41:43] which is really helpful and then she just kind of like puts me on the path for college tells me what

[00:41:48] the sat is gives me a book study for it you know all of this stuff and by the way for for people who

[00:41:54] have like read the book because it's a very emotional chapter with my counselor like yes she does know

[00:42:00] now yes she has copies signed copies of the book as does her whole family and you know another thing

[00:42:07] that is a thread throughout my life is that like several on several different occasions just like

[00:42:12] an adult woman just saw me and saw that I needed help and helped me and it was always a woman of

[00:42:18] color and in this case my counselor was a black woman and I'm just like so grateful because she

[00:42:30] thinks about it all the time yeah and was this high school essay that you wrote about your experience

[00:42:37] was this the first time that you had really told anybody about what you grew up in absolutely

[00:42:42] yeah I was just like I grew up in a cult you know the question was along the lines of like

[00:42:47] what makes you different what hardships have you overcome and I'm just like okay I got this

[00:42:55] you know it was also a weird moment because like the perfect cheerleader girl who sat next to me and

[00:43:00] you know helped her with her English like she was like I don't have anything to write about

[00:43:06] so I helped her we found something but you know I remember being like huh it's interesting that

[00:43:13] I have this advantage and by the way I've noticed this trend in books in cult books of like

[00:43:20] we write the big essay or the big story you know and so often like not only had I not talked to

[00:43:27] anyone about it being a cult like I had just accepted it and I would put it back behind me for almost

[00:43:32] the next 10 years but like when I needed to get attention like I knew I had a story you know and

[00:43:40] I think that is true for a lot of us it's like we're not deconstructing we're telling ourselves

[00:43:45] you know I think I told myself that I could just run towards success and work hard enough

[00:43:50] and just get past it and of course as we see in my book you know by the time I'm a captain in

[00:43:56] the army and I'm not past it and it's literally breaking me like you know I had to realize like

[00:44:01] there's no level of success that I'm going to reach that's just going to erase the childhood

[00:44:08] and like make me normal and make me not traumatized and you know you have to deal with it like the only

[00:44:15] way out is through yeah I mean you say in the book like my body was keeping the score like actively

[00:44:21] keeping the score and at some point it catches up with you but you yeah you know you talk about

[00:44:26] spending a lot of time like you just said like the next 10 years feeling like the only way

[00:44:32] to escape it is to not look at it and to pretend that it never happened in some way and so I think

[00:44:40] part of that for you was joining the army right and being like I'm gonna be the best at this I can

[00:44:45] be the best at this oh for sure for sure I also think this was this was my cult hopping phase

[00:44:51] you know it's like I go from a cult I look back now and I put myself in a high control

[00:44:58] program to get through high school and college and multiple jobs well when you graduated college

[00:45:04] like valedictorian correct yeah so like she's really good at everything she does yeah but it was

[00:45:12] also because like I didn't want any down time to see you know and of course I was told you had

[00:45:19] to be good you know and when you're a child raised without conditional raised without

[00:45:23] unconditional love you know that's really where the perfectionism comes from but also like I just

[00:45:29] yeah I mean across the board I found it's it's very common for kids from high control religion to go

[00:45:34] into military and government and across the board were like yeah they didn't ask us to do anything

[00:45:39] harder than our childhoods right we do we do very very well yeah but yeah going into the army

[00:45:45] so I basically went from like cult to don't give myself any time to think to really bad

[00:45:53] relationship like what we would call a one-one cult what people definitely called a near domestic

[00:45:59] you know violence miss and then because of the toxic relationship it influences my decision to

[00:46:06] join the army quite a bit but I also remember you know I'm getting to the end of school I'm just

[00:46:13] I'm just so exhausted you know I've been doing this for six years I really haven't

[00:46:17] really haven't broken the social code of making good friends and you know like I don't even know what

[00:46:23] like I always tell people if I hadn't joined the army I would have had a PhD by the age of 25

[00:46:28] I wouldn't have known how to just like go out into the world and put my life together because I

[00:46:34] literally know a lot about it yeah which is kind of hard to figure out anyway like even as someone

[00:46:41] who you know is raised in the system it is kind of hard to figure out what to do and how to make your

[00:46:47] life you know move from one big transition to the next and a transition out of college is a particularly

[00:46:52] tricky one and yeah so it's like the army was a cult and there were many many things that

[00:46:59] were horrible in your experience there but also I wonder if part of you is like still thankful

[00:47:07] that you did that and like feels like it was the right choice for you at the time I mean yeah that's

[00:47:12] like definitely a difficult question for me to answer because like of course it re-traumatized me

[00:47:17] and a lot of different things including the fact that I recommended to a sibling of mine to join the

[00:47:23] military and he is no longer with us and I feel very guilty about like you know now that I

[00:47:31] know so much about like how just how traumatic it is to submit yourself to have your identity broken

[00:47:36] yes right and like go through all of that you know my editor's the one that notices that I start

[00:47:42] having flashbacks and basic training of like back to the cult you know but at the same time like

[00:47:48] almost everything wonderful in my life now is because of the military right including the fact

[00:47:54] that they are the cult that pays the best benefits right so I got a free Harvard degree I get

[00:48:00] you know disability money and you know I met my husband there right so like everything

[00:48:06] so I don't know it's hard to say right yeah and it's interesting because there are a lot of

[00:48:12] not-so-fun reviews in my book that are like well what does she expect you know I like to say one

[00:48:18] of the biggest cult thought-stopping cliches for organizations is you knew what you signed up

[00:48:22] for right like first of all it's never true and it's only used to shut down critical

[00:48:27] complaint but even so like and people are like come on she didn't join the military that ignorant

[00:48:33] I'm like no I really did I really really just kind of stumbled into the military because I knew it

[00:48:39] was a good social elevator and like what else was I going to do and in the military is where I

[00:48:45] discovered that I can run very very fast and the interesting thing is number one that became

[00:48:51] like my primary means of numbing especially through two deployments where you have nothing

[00:48:56] no other means of numbing but I also think that you know like people would be like oh you're so good

[00:49:03] at this and I don't think I was really any more of a natural runner than most other people

[00:49:10] I just think I push I would push myself through the concrete to be the first because that was

[00:49:18] what was keeping me alive yeah you know and almost like like looking back is interesting it was

[00:49:24] like I never had to introduce myself hardly ever to a senior officer because they all knew who I was

[00:49:30] I was the blonde girl that ran really fast and it gave you a different label that you didn't have

[00:49:34] to explain yeah and I was the same way with my teachers in college like make sure they know you

[00:49:39] for a good reason so then they won't like see that you're weird you know but also I just

[00:49:46] feel like the military was you know they hand you in a way it's a neurodivergence paradise

[00:49:51] right because they like hand you a rulebook of how to act they tell you what to wear they give you

[00:49:57] a group of friends and and teammates and stuff but at the same time I think we we call bullshit on

[00:50:03] all the bullshit faster when we recognize the patterns faster but yeah I mean I loved it you

[00:50:10] know I loved it I really bought in hard I think we all as adults buy into our own indoctrination

[00:50:17] and where I told you like nothing the cult could do could make me believe that they could not break me

[00:50:22] but as soon as I was the one being like yep I'm doing it I'm going off to help the country

[00:50:28] you know and again I think like I was just like looking for a mission but what kind of hides behind

[00:50:36] when we say looking for a mission is usually also a feeling of superiority that cults give us

[00:50:42] and one of the reasons we see cults pop up in times of social turmoil is because it's a confusing time

[00:50:50] social systems are coming down and people are terrified and so they're looking for someone who

[00:50:55] will tell them how to live their life and reassure them that like they're living life the right way

[00:51:01] right and that's why cults use all these black and white rules what I call purity requirements

[00:51:07] you know I don't drink this I don't wear that I don't put this book in my mind

[00:51:12] you know these are all forms of purity requirements to keep people in this like

[00:51:16] black and white mindset but I would say you know I loved the military I got to do some really cool

[00:51:22] things including like win a marathon in Afghanistan I competed twice for the 101st division in the

[00:51:30] army 10 miler here in DC and not to mention I oh yeah I got to be one of the first women

[00:51:36] on deliberate ground combat teams when we did these like secret female engagement teams

[00:51:42] stuff in on my first deployment as a lieutenant and then I got to be the senior intelligence chief

[00:51:48] for a whole battalion right so like a thousand people and their helicopters like we were responsible

[00:51:56] for knowing I always say my exact area of expertise in the military was things that kill

[00:52:02] helicopter pilots in Afghanistan which wasn't that great when I married a helicopter pilot who

[00:52:08] then went to these special operations yeah and I would be mom at home with baby and also government

[00:52:16] trained expert on all of the ways that my husband can not come home oh unfortunately he did and

[00:52:22] and she met president Barack Obama guys and they did yes yes she's really cool forget about that

[00:52:28] yeah so in your time in the army you're literally running away from your past and your trauma which

[00:52:36] is like you know you have the children of god trauma and you also have ongoing trauma that's

[00:52:42] happening while you're in the army and not just from combat situations but also from like

[00:52:47] the the like atmosphere of sexual but yeah the rape culture like the the sexual abuse that

[00:52:54] is like rampant in the army and you're the you know a lot of times the only woman or one of two women

[00:53:00] who are there or and people are just constantly looking at you a certain way or just telling

[00:53:06] you like don't get raped make sure like make sure you don't let that happen to you so anyway

[00:53:10] there's like all of this that's you know probably both retraumatizing you and traumatizing you

[00:53:16] in new ways and you're running away from it from this past and then it kind of catches up

[00:53:20] with you at some point can you talk about that moment yeah so just you know for me like I said

[00:53:28] my editor's noticing the flashbacks in basic training but for me like when I deployed as a 23 year old

[00:53:35] officer also a pretty small blonde girl to a base that is 95% men you know all of a sudden

[00:53:43] I'm back on a giant compound with all of these men that are sexually dangerous to me around me

[00:53:50] and we're being told you know it's our responsibility to keep ourselves safe that was definitely like

[00:53:56] the beginning of just like all the complex PTSD and everything that I had not been thinking about

[00:54:02] forever coming out it's also the right schedule right so therapists will tell us that like what

[00:54:08] you go through when you're five you go through again when you're 25 and again when you're 50

[00:54:13] you know and so there was a lot of things going on for me right around this time but basically

[00:54:20] after almost not making it through my first deployment with how intense everything was and

[00:54:24] the trauma was I was like okay I got to start now I know it's deconstructing right and dealing with this

[00:54:31] and a big part of that was even talking about it you know and not just thinking I had to be perfect

[00:54:36] Captain Mestinac all the time well like nobody knew about your past either like you didn't really

[00:54:41] talk about it I mean like a handful of people did in small ways you know your best friend

[00:54:45] Danielle did because she like watched these this cult documentary about it and like most of the people

[00:54:51] that worked for me you know they knew part of that was because they had a very strict we don't talk

[00:54:57] about religion policy you know in the office but it's very different to be like oh yeah I grew up

[00:55:03] in a religious cult but to actually like tell people what that means you know so for example

[00:55:09] when I did start talking about it and it's close to when we're gonna deploy again and we have

[00:55:14] this tight-knit group of lieutenants that we call the lieutenant mafia and literally one day

[00:55:19] while we're out of the training and we're all just waiting around and we knew we had hours

[00:55:23] they're like all right sit down Captain Mestinac you're gonna tell us the cult story and I did

[00:55:31] but it was still like not you know I wasn't talking about it that much you know like my boss knew

[00:55:35] I had 14 siblings because I would admit to 14 but not 25 apparently okay you know so it was all

[00:55:41] like you just and most of us do this when we leave the call it's like you're you're peddling a softer

[00:55:48] version you know you're not really lying about anything like I was a missionary kid that grew

[00:55:54] up in Brazil like at least that's what I was told right now I was also part of organized international

[00:55:59] crime but I didn't know that you know but I do remember that when the book came out there

[00:56:04] were several people from college that were kind of hurt and were like so you just lied to us the

[00:56:09] whole time and it was you know like I'm sorry I explained it the best that I could and I was doing

[00:56:16] what I thought I was supposed to do which is putting all behind me and surviving you know

[00:56:22] like in the very beginning you don't even have the wherewithal to deal with it because you're

[00:56:27] literally trying to survive you know and just learn about the world and then by the time you

[00:56:33] have I remember I used to be like I just can't think about it but like when I'm 19 and I have

[00:56:38] everything figured out like I'm gonna go to the mountains and sit there and like decide what

[00:56:43] religion I am and by the time I was 19 the only thing I'd figured out was that I was definitely

[00:56:49] an atheist. Hey that's pretty good for someone who grew up in a cult. Yeah but anyways so you

[00:56:57] know it comes to my second deployment and it's I mean it's so hard to talk about but like

[00:57:05] basically because I am involved with trying to help people who are being sexually harassed and

[00:57:13] or sexually abused but victims also sometimes lash out at people that are trying to help them

[00:57:20] but more importantly like the military has been getting pressure for the terrible terrible culture

[00:57:29] and so the leadership that be was like you know somebody is taking the fall for this I remember

[00:57:37] them literally saying like first of all Daniella's sometimes just gonna take one for the team

[00:57:42] and also like we have to have something to show Congress and I literally was like okay

[00:57:47] send me to Congress and when they put this military discipline against me I just I wrote

[00:57:54] the whole story right and I was I was pretty triggered because one the leader who was kind of

[00:58:03] ending my career in front of me told me that I have no idea what these girls have gone through

[00:58:09] yes and even if you don't know about the cult right like just the ovaries on that man to think

[00:58:17] that he as a man had any concept of what women went through over there certainly more than another

[00:58:26] woman I think I audibly gasped when I was listening to the book at this point and he said that to you

[00:58:33] like you don't know you don't have any idea what these women have been through I think I had to

[00:58:38] like pause and stop for a minute and just like feel so angry on your behalf and on all of our

[00:58:43] behalf because like he is the last person that should be telling you that right you had been through

[00:58:50] so much just by being a woman you know more than he does about what it's like to be a woman

[00:58:55] by being a woman in the army and experiencing like you are the one that was pushing for so much

[00:59:00] change around this like rape culture that was so present in the military and is probably still

[00:59:07] and on top of that you had been in this cult where you had been raped many times as a child

[00:59:14] yeah um and I mean on both of my deployments I just said people say horrible things to me

[00:59:19] you know like my first deployment I was told I would probably get raped by my boss I was also

[00:59:24] pulled aside by three different officers and told to watch my back against the American soldiers

[00:59:32] that I was being sent out with right so I mean we are literally living in this environment where

[00:59:38] like the men get to come back behind the walls and take off their armor and put down their guns

[00:59:42] and like we just never do and so many times even I would try to bring up the culture and be like

[00:59:47] we need you know to give rights home to the women we need to maybe not have a place called

[00:59:51] rape alley that is the only way to get from where we work to where we eat or we sleep to

[00:59:57] where we eat you know and I would just be told like put in yellow you have guns

[01:00:02] you know I mean it's just so ludicrous and so then you know he says this to me and he sends me off

[01:00:09] to go write my rebuttal and then my boss who is a truly great mentor and I think like a really

[01:00:17] really good man but also not knowing me and just knowing the version of me right the

[01:00:24] blonde perfect super soldier who we have comes from maybe a little crazy past

[01:00:30] but he says to me you know like I'm falling my eyes out and he is like very uncomfortable

[01:00:36] military man and he says he's like you know I know this is bad this may be the worst thing

[01:00:41] you've been through in your life but and I just I mean literally like hyena cackling

[01:00:49] just walk away which of course you're not supposed to do to hear your officer neither the cackling

[01:00:55] nor the just walking away but he's also told me he's like just be be professional be humble say

[01:01:02] you're sorry and keep it short he's like four pages should do the trick because there was also

[01:01:08] some information that they didn't have right so they decided to throw the book at me without ever

[01:01:13] like having the whole story so he was like just do that and I sat down and I like started that way

[01:01:19] and then I was like F no not doing this like I'm not sorry I can't be sorry for something that I

[01:01:27] didn't do right and I mean they literally wanted me to sign my name on a military document saying

[01:01:34] that I was part of fostering an environment of sexual harassment and assault in the military

[01:01:40] and like yeah you have a problem your problem isn't me you know and I mean so many of the soldiers

[01:01:47] and officers that did work for me or with me who knew the story I mean they were very very

[01:01:52] hurt on my behalf and one of them actually because this this thing turned into just

[01:01:59] like a witch hunt and pulled in a bunch of people wrecked a bunch of careers

[01:02:02] and we were all going through that while still at war having to do our 12 hour intelligence

[01:02:08] shifts and do all of our stuff and finally one of the captains when they hear that they're turning

[01:02:14] in against me he's like oh thank god because nobody's gonna dream of accusing captain Mestineck

[01:02:19] of like this like she's the one always fighting it always but you know it's also pretty typical

[01:02:26] and the same thing happens when we talk about our cult stories is we very often will either

[01:02:32] be accused of being cult leaders ourselves or will be accused of the same crimes you know

[01:02:38] there's these women out there trying to say stuff about me right now and it's just really comes down

[01:02:44] to I don't think people like it when you speak up but anyways I wrote this very angry kind of 10 page

[01:02:49] document that was like let me tell you what I've been through in my life let me tell you what I

[01:02:53] understand and let me tell you and so where in high school I write the like okay let me tell you

[01:02:59] like very short very apologetic in this case I am just like I put it all on the page in

[01:03:06] the most horrifying terms that I can and I bring it to this to this man you know and I just expect

[01:03:12] him to come back furious and he just walks back to me he's clearly been crying and he is like don't

[01:03:18] change a thing and anyways still doesn't work out well for me right like when the powers that be

[01:03:24] decide that you are gone you are gone but I made it very clear to them that like they were either

[01:03:30] going to do this quietly or I would take this to the steps of congress and I would I told them I was

[01:03:38] like you are going to have to court martial me before I will sign a document saying that I'm guilty of

[01:03:44] that specific thing so they did decide to you know quietly make it go away but it still left me with

[01:03:50] pretty much getting out of the military being my best option and like a lot of higher ups were

[01:03:56] very angry at you for that right so much yeah and and kind of forced you out at that point well and that

[01:04:04] and then comes the other thing where I'm like I wrote a whole book comparing army to a cult

[01:04:09] and we didn't even get into leaving right because the book ends when I decide to leave yeah and then

[01:04:16] proceeded to be the cultiest of all they run through all the tricks like nobody's gonna love you on

[01:04:21] the outside like my my boss not the good one the like one in between was like like you know

[01:04:28] there's like a bad economy out there like what are you like I remember looking at me like sir

[01:04:34] I'm a woman I mean female combat veteran with a four point up like because he asked what I was

[01:04:42] gonna do I said I was gonna go get an MBA at some fancy school and he's like I like

[01:04:45] anything you could just waltz into an Ivy League school and I'm like again fairly knows about me like

[01:04:51] I'm a female veteran with a four point no with a story that beats everyone else's story yeah

[01:04:58] it's kind of what I said to him but no worries I didn't waltz I salsa danced into Harvard

[01:05:07] but yeah I mean it's literally they try all the tricks on you and I remember being like if I

[01:05:12] hadn't been thrown out at 15 with nothing and built a whole life for myself I would probably be a little

[01:05:18] bit afraid yeah of what they're saying now and you know especially now that I know like the

[01:05:23] military really does truly function like a cult in my opinion like it makes a lot of sense and

[01:05:28] getting out is terrifying you know and so many of the soldier they still insist on using the

[01:05:35] word transition even though that means mostly something else but like soldiers transitioning

[01:05:40] out of the military service members like that is a huge huge huge life event and yeah very you know I

[01:05:48] think a big part of the the like veteran suicide crisis like I feel like there's a critical two years

[01:05:54] right after you get out where you are like you're jonesing for the mission you need a purpose you

[01:05:59] need community you're just starting to unpack what your actual experience was because you know

[01:06:06] the way we go through things that cause PTSD is we tell ourselves it's not so bad and then you know at

[01:06:13] some point in every cult members deconstruction is when you look back and usually it's like you

[01:06:18] meet another member or you put your hands on like literature or some kind of art something that

[01:06:25] brings you back there and you're like oh was that bad you know and then you have to like

[01:06:31] really start unpacking it yeah so that for sure was a big part but I mean I think when I was getting

[01:06:39] out of the military too was when I started to realize like oh like I'm looking for a mission right

[01:06:46] like there's all these things about me that I don't know how to be like I just tried to be

[01:06:51] like an individual doing a corporate job like I was not highly successful because I don't really

[01:06:57] know how to do any of that so eventually I just decided I was going to do my own thing

[01:07:03] it was kind of funny I was I was listening to an audiobook that was talking about how people

[01:07:08] that do public speaking make more money across industry than people who don't interesting and

[01:07:14] I was literally that day in my car I was like okay what am I an expert on and I was like well I

[01:07:19] know a lot about growing up in a cult and I know a lot about being a woman in the army

[01:07:23] 10 months later I did a TED talk but that you know kind of started me I think like really

[01:07:28] kind of on this what I now call the decade of deconstruction which is about how long I think

[01:07:34] it takes and you know no idea that this was going to turn into me writing a book losing more family

[01:07:40] members you know all of the stuff good and bad that happens from it but I'm really glad where

[01:07:47] I am today and you know I don't know if you remember in the book there's a part where I'm

[01:07:52] six years old and I'm imagining my mansion in heaven because that's what we did and like all

[01:07:57] I want is just like a house full of books and like time to read and I pretty much created a life

[01:08:04] for myself where I read books and I knit and I get paid for it and I still don't have all the

[01:08:09] time to read all the books that I want but my house is definitely just I need a librarian

[01:08:14] to live in my house because I lose books all the time because there are so many

[01:08:17] I love that because books had been like so freeing for you

[01:08:22] have an author people just send you free books like free books just show up in my

[01:08:26] p.l. box all the time because they want me to read them and either you know influence recommend

[01:08:32] them on my big platforms or like give them a blurb or something and I just like being

[01:08:38] so different but also still being that little girl that just wasn't allowed to read books I just

[01:08:43] like I'm just the leafle every single time I get like a surprise package and it's a book is so cool

[01:08:50] I mean you were like hiding on the top bunk with you know whatever you were allowed to read

[01:08:55] out front with an actual book behind it reading up and another good one at some point

[01:09:02] they when they were making like carry around cd players you could fit two cds in them

[01:09:09] and they would play and so I could have my angry alias morcette cd under like a cult cd and even if

[01:09:17] literally because you never know when an auntie would just like walk out and be like what are you

[01:09:20] listening to and just pop it open wow get away with it lots of subterfuge yeah it's actually

[01:09:29] interesting because it's a thing in cults for sure like what I call justified lying like your top

[01:09:34] of young age to like lie essentially to the outside world or if you're a Mormon they say it's not secret

[01:09:40] it's sacred but then that also no matter how much they try to tell us that lying is not good right like

[01:09:47] that's one of those patterns that you know they're full of shit right so I mean as teenagers we were

[01:09:52] very good and it was interesting even in all the the surveillance and being watched stuff in the

[01:09:58] military and you know because I met my husband on a deployment and there was none of that on

[01:10:03] deployment like on pain of your entire career evaporating and I remember my boss like cautioning

[01:10:11] us you know like we're gonna have to wait it's a long time and I just looked at him I was like sir

[01:10:15] my job is to look at a map and point out to you all of the dark places where people could hide

[01:10:23] like if I choose to subterfuge do you really think you're gonna catch me

[01:10:33] like I promise you I know where I could hide if I want to yeah like look we we kept a lot of the

[01:10:41] rules but we definitely would like go on night runs right and go like find a dark corner

[01:10:47] but then I won the marathon on base right so like you gotta sell it you gotta you gotta commit

[01:10:56] hey everyone I'm Maggie from the Hello Deconstructionists podcast I wanted to take a moment

[01:11:01] to say thank you for tuning into this show we're so grateful that you decided to spend your time

[01:11:06] with us seriously Cortland Dan Gale Jessica Megan Nate Scott and the rest of us here at

[01:11:12] the Dauntless Media Collective couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without

[01:11:17] your support I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation right now there are

[01:11:22] some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective Discord server if you're

[01:11:28] interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing the oppressive

[01:11:32] traditions they came from please feel free to stop by the server if you don't know what

[01:11:37] discord is it's a place where communities can gather online for chatting on a wide variety of

[01:11:42] topics in our discord server we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations

[01:11:48] some meme sharing therapeutic venting about whatever religious bulls*** you're currently

[01:11:52] dealing with and even a specific channel devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the

[01:11:58] podcast you're listening to right now I hope you'll join us you can log in directly to the

[01:12:03] Dauntless server by clicking the link in the show notes or heading to dauntless.fm and

[01:12:08] clicking the link in the top banner see you there so okay I'm curious about after you left the army

[01:12:18] that's kind of where the book ends or like as you're leaving the army what has life been like for you

[01:12:24] since then what has your healing looked like how have you looked back at your past embraced it

[01:12:30] yeah so I get out of the army when i'm 27 a year later I'm married with a baby and

[01:12:39] you know I wouldn't say like I slow down at all right like I literally had a job when I was still

[01:12:45] in the army for four more months and I was doing both of them while pregnant but then I just like

[01:12:51] that one fell apart for me too and I was just like I don't want to well one thing that was

[01:12:57] interesting was when I got out of the army I said okay I'm good at being an expert

[01:13:00] so what is the next thing I'm going to be an expert in and I think that was probably the

[01:13:06] first time I was like defining myself for myself you know and like these days I'm like I think I

[01:13:14] I have a specific like gift with language and like the Taylor swiftness of putting something

[01:13:21] into words in a way that no one else has done it before but then once they hear it they're

[01:13:26] like oh yeah you know yeah and I love like teaching adults and seeing that moment where like

[01:13:31] things just change you know so at some point I was just like okay I don't think I'm going to get

[01:13:38] another job I think I want to spend the rest of my life teaching people about culture at a national

[01:13:45] or international level and I was like okay there's three ways I can do that I can write a book I

[01:13:51] can get a PhD or I can start a consulting company so being me I did all three at once

[01:13:57] I started all three at once and then I always say the you know the book broke first

[01:14:03] so I ended up with a master's so like during COVID I was doing a master's degree in organizational

[01:14:09] psychology in this Harvard program and then like six months before I graduated from that

[01:14:16] because I had also been working on this book for you know years at this point it was interesting

[01:14:22] because no one knew if this book was going to sell right because people say like you can't

[01:14:26] do children of God it's one of the reasons we don't have a good documentary because they're like

[01:14:30] the abuse is too horrible oh interesting okay and like when I tell you right like the reason people

[01:14:36] can get through my book is because we picked like as few examples as we could show you to show you

[01:14:42] everything yeah but if you're just having to just be in that over and over again but then

[01:14:47] the other thing was like they would say like nobody nobody reads books by military women

[01:14:52] and honestly we had not I'm pretty sure I have the first like full memoir that's like in the mass

[01:14:58] market by a military woman wow and one of the things that drove that was when this woman she

[01:15:05] was a low-ranking Mexican-American soldier named Vanessa Guillen and she went missing

[01:15:10] and they didn't really do a good job searching for her for over 60 days and the reason the

[01:15:17] 60 days is significant is because if a rifle or other important piece of equipment goes missing

[01:15:22] for 60 minutes they will shut down the base and they have a term for it arms across America

[01:15:29] like everyone on that base general on down will like work until that thing is found and so this was

[01:15:37] like this international like message to any woman that was worn in US Army uniform that like we matter

[01:15:44] less than a rifle right and I just remember right I'd been getting these two parallel

[01:15:52] rejections of the concept of how I told my life story of like or how I just planned to tell it

[01:15:58] right because you're just working with a book proposal and I was like okay nobody knows about

[01:16:04] the children of God abuse because we won't write about it and nobody cares about women in the

[01:16:09] military because I was sitting there literally in the dark just like so triggered on all of my trauma

[01:16:15] as most of us women veterans were and I was like why doesn't America care right and then I was like

[01:16:22] oh maybe America doesn't know because we don't have books by military women that have had the big

[01:16:29] market treatment yet you know they usually fall into like either the burn it all down book but

[01:16:35] it just small press and is able to get ignored or it's like a woman who is badass and first at

[01:16:41] something but her book sounds like it was written by the Pentagon and just to be clear I have so

[01:16:47] so much respect for any of these women that have written any form of book right but in that moment

[01:16:53] I thought to myself someone has to just bleed their soul onto the page and just really really

[01:17:00] show how bad it is for us in that environment but also be able to do it at a big enough level

[01:17:07] that they don't have to ask the Pentagon for permission to protest them and then like one

[01:17:12] second later I was like oh crap that's me you know like because I have this big cult story I'm going

[01:17:19] to be able to tell the woman in the military story because I can get it in that way my people

[01:17:25] have asked me you know like how do other women veterans feel about my book and I mean just across

[01:17:31] the board they're like get out of my journal like it's the same it's it's just so much in the

[01:17:38] culture that we all went through yeah yeah have you had a lot of pushback from either group like

[01:17:45] the children of God leadership have they like reached out to you at all or like no so the

[01:17:51] children of God is basically defunct like it's 1400 people paying something for mostly an online

[01:17:58] church it's kind of falling apart because okay the way cults die without a big conflagration is when

[01:18:04] they can't recruit or keep the next generation okay which I have to step in here and say Mormons

[01:18:10] are organizing for Kamala so I feel like they're not gonna maybe keep or recruit the next

[01:18:17] generation we're actually going through the largest exodus of religion and history right now

[01:18:21] the second great awakening which of course is why people like you and I do this kind of work

[01:18:28] but through the process of like realizing that like I was gonna go develop my own expertise and

[01:18:35] do my own thing and then the forcing function of a book was what really I think forced me into

[01:18:41] deconstruction big time and actually having to go through all of my stuff and I would also say

[01:18:50] there there's something incredibly healing about telling the story and there's two really big things

[01:18:55] for me so one is we don't talk enough like we say owning your own story and deconstruction all

[01:19:03] the time right but we don't talk enough about like owning it you know like I took all of

[01:19:09] the worst things that happened to me and this picture of me being trafficked in Japan

[01:19:14] and I make money for this like I sell signed copies of these on tiktok at a astounding rate

[01:19:23] you know and I was able to do a great job as the audiobook narrator because I had been

[01:19:28] forced to be a child actor my whole life recording the audiobook was probably the

[01:19:34] hardest thing I've ever done but it was also pretty amazing to be like I'm using that skill

[01:19:40] that you forced me to have to go like read this for the world and you know now that a lot of my money

[01:19:47] comes from being a content creator an expert and knitter on the internet it's like yeah I took all

[01:19:54] the things that you forced me to have you know I definitely wish I wouldn't have grown up in

[01:20:00] a cult as an unpaid child actress but I'm good on video you know but now you can get paid for it

[01:20:08] yeah and that's been a big part of it too you know and then the other thing is that well first

[01:20:13] of all once you tell your story in like a book you get to like stop telling too much of it right

[01:20:19] like we didn't actually talk about as serious of stuff on this podcast as we do in the book

[01:20:26] right so it's like people a lot of people are afraid that they'll get stuck as like the cult lady in

[01:20:32] like writing their story and I was just like oh I'm just gonna lean all the way into it and come

[01:20:38] out the other side and what I think is cool is that again when we're talking about cults we're

[01:20:43] just talking about someone who's come under the coercive control of a group and I feel like

[01:20:47] there are so many people that can relate to that and there's this huge audience you know now

[01:20:53] I'm here on this side of it all and I'm like I have an incredible amount of knowledge in a very

[01:20:59] niche topic that everybody is interested in right so it's kind of you know uh dream but I also hate

[01:21:08] the concept of like influencers and thought leaders because it's so kind of culty so I do a I do a

[01:21:16] job of like I built a guru gotcha checklist with like all the things red flags to keep myself

[01:21:22] in check but I also bring in a lot of other people's content and stuff so I think my channels

[01:21:27] are really interesting and fun but then the second thing that has really changed for me that I think

[01:21:33] is is quite deep and I'm quite grateful for is that you know so much of uncultured is just

[01:21:39] being alone right like being alone in traumatic situations and then being alone trying to

[01:21:44] process them and just being alone and now it's not like I don't get triggered you know who

[01:21:50] knows if I will ever get to that stage but at least when I do like I have like tens of thousands of

[01:21:58] people that have read this book you know and now that I sign a bunch of books myself like I have

[01:22:04] names of people who are like there with me right who walk through this really really hard story

[01:22:11] and that really has also like changed my life in a lot of ways yeah and you know I this

[01:22:18] interview is coming at such a perfect time because I've been having just all of these signs that like

[01:22:23] my heavy era of deconstruction is kind of coming to an end I'm moving on with an expertise with

[01:22:30] the job that I love and just like a pretty incredible life that I've built and like most of the time

[01:22:36] that's the life I'm living in you know and the trauma has really a lot of it been sorted out

[01:22:42] and put where it needs to go yeah so I think I am at a pretty wonderful place

[01:22:49] that's the child that you hear making as much noise as possible behind me

[01:22:54] welcome to the podcast she does not throw herself in the camera though

[01:22:59] are there any other pieces or parts of your story or part of your healing process that you

[01:23:05] want to share before I ask you my last question so one of the things like I really recommend to

[01:23:11] people is just like if you've had any kind of experience of cult or coercive control just like

[01:23:17] read a bunch of memoirs I wrote one you can read I'm culture it's really good of course that sounds

[01:23:23] self-serving but you know I had this very important moment before I knew I was deconstructing when

[01:23:30] I realized that all cults were ultimately the same like the pattern is there and one of the

[01:23:37] the big things in my book the big turnaround moments for me is when a friend tells me you know get the

[01:23:44] f over yourself you're not as different as you think you are and that's one of the things that really

[01:23:50] led me on this big journey but also led me to realize that it's kind of a bit of that cult

[01:23:55] superiority or of like making yourself special in that like nobody can understand what I went through

[01:24:02] and you know in reality it's exactly the opposite right like people can understand and even though

[01:24:09] the details are different like we're all humans we're being controlled in the same way and like

[01:24:15] it's much better to understand that you're not that different you're not that special you can

[01:24:21] choose your life you know so that's something I always tell people like my red flag for groups

[01:24:27] and individuals is a focus on your own uniqueness just like an over focus right like obviously

[01:24:34] we're all special we all have cool things but at the same time like no human's better than another

[01:24:40] one right like nobody's the only person that has a certain idea you know I tell people like if

[01:24:45] anyone is telling you that their process or product works for everyone they're either trying to

[01:24:52] cult you or con you okay because it's just impossible and another thing that I've realized

[01:24:58] that is fun is that cults are always promising space travel and by space travel I mean promising you

[01:25:06] something in another world in another life on another dimension in another state in another form

[01:25:13] and I just rolled that up as space travel yeah of course but you know I I've come to think

[01:25:19] that that is part of coercive control because you can't have people reach enlightenment right one because

[01:25:28] then they wouldn't need you but two because it's a con and I ultimately think like the leaders know

[01:25:35] this you know like there's it's significant to me that Jim Jones didn't drink the kool-aid right

[01:25:40] you know so I just always tell people I'm like knowing that and knowing that cults are about

[01:25:46] labor one of the things you can do is just first of all don't dedicate your life to any one thing

[01:25:53] you know but also like keep track of how much labor you are giving to organizations and what

[01:26:00] you're getting in return in this lifetime right because you know the number one question I get

[01:26:06] asked is like can you have a good group or a good cult and I don't think you can good cult but

[01:26:12] one of the things I say now is like show me where the group sometimes loses so that the individuals

[01:26:21] can win because that is the problem with all of these systems right capitalism and everything right

[01:26:28] is that like in order for a system to be valid it has to be self-sustaining and when you are

[01:26:35] requiring the constant self-sacrifice of members which is number four in my list like you're

[01:26:42] always ultimately going to hurt the individual and you know I believe that it always leads to

[01:26:47] number eight of the list which is the exploitation of labor so really you know I kind of think this

[01:26:53] is even what's going on with like millennials and younger generations like capitalism is failing

[01:26:59] to recruit or keep the next generation right and like we pretty much I have a point too

[01:27:05] is the sacred assumption like the thing we believe that we can justify anything under

[01:27:10] and I think millennials are buying out of the sacred assumption that like working our whole

[01:27:15] lives for the man is going to pay off and then they're going to take care of us right and it's

[01:27:20] actually kind of fun because I get told I'm breaking the rules all the time for example like

[01:27:25] I only talk about bad guys in bad groups right like I do not do good groups and you're always

[01:27:30] telling me that I can't and I'm like but I mean I'm making a pretty good living at it

[01:27:35] right but I'm doing it and the deconstruction closed story that I want to tell you right

[01:27:41] are always telling us any of us that do this kind of work right which I kind of call as

[01:27:48] professional Cassandra's you know like we're showing people the bad stuff and like the patterns

[01:27:53] in the future and by the way they warn you in intelligence school that everyone will hate you

[01:27:58] because you're the one that's the bad guy that's always like poking the holes

[01:28:03] but people always tell me they're like you can't just like make a life or make things out of just

[01:28:10] always the negative right and and like deconstruction and pulling things apart well we talked about my

[01:28:16] clothes design and how I like you know spent so long looking for what to do with scarves

[01:28:21] and I was also like looking for what to do with pants because they have so many flowy

[01:28:27] beautiful pants and I am growing out of them as I'm healing my body image after the cult and the army

[01:28:34] and I was like but I want to do something with them and then like a month ago or not even my

[01:28:40] daughter comes down the stairs she's just taken a pair of pants she's flipped it upside down

[01:28:45] she's cut down the crotch put it on as a shirt and it's a long sleeve crop and she calls it

[01:28:52] a chop top and then I approach the 80 edges I have made she wants her credit she came up with the name

[01:29:01] for it was also this moment for me where I was like see you can create in the negative space

[01:29:07] in the deconstruction you know and like I am adding concepts to the world and to my field all the

[01:29:15] time and so people should stop hating on the Cassandra's and understand that like you know because

[01:29:23] that was even my experience in in graduate school I was like everyone only is looking at the good

[01:29:28] groups right like what they've decided are the good groups and I'm almost the eye roll that's

[01:29:32] always bringing up the bad groups but like as an intelligence officer like that's the whole

[01:29:38] concept right like you have to know as much as you can about the bad guys and the patterns and

[01:29:46] the whatever if you want to keep yourself safe but you know one of the things I decided was that

[01:29:51] I don't think I actually care about groups I'm not sure groups want to be better but what

[01:29:57] I've defined for myself that I'm good at and the space where I want to be is helping

[01:30:02] individuals understand like the groups that have hurt them the groups that are hurting them and the

[01:30:08] groups that will continue to try to hurt them right because that way like we all need to be able to

[01:30:14] navigate this super complex world of groups and systems that we have created so that's my

[01:30:20] that's my little negative space that I live in. Well, taking care of the individual and focusing

[01:30:25] on the individual is like such a nice active resistance to the idea of like cults and groups

[01:30:33] and this kind of group think that they put you in. Exactly, and you know on that note one of the

[01:30:38] things I tell people all the time is like when you're looking for your next mission because

[01:30:42] you need it so much like it's okay for your mission to be you. Yeah, yeah. That's where I

[01:30:49] am now and please listeners come join me on TikTok because we're in the most active but I'm also on

[01:30:56] YouTube now where I do like a weekly cult roll up. I describe as like the John Oliver show but I'm

[01:31:02] less funny and it's all about cults. I'm gonna go record that after this. You also do a really

[01:31:08] cool like deconstructing book club. Yes. That I have noticed and I think Pure is on there

[01:31:14] soon or was recently just did Pure and the offer came and talked to us. It was really,

[01:31:19] really good. Yeah. Next month we are doing Tia Levings. A well trained wife. A well trained

[01:31:25] wife which debuted on the New York Times list as it should. So yeah, so I have a book club and

[01:31:30] all of this is like all the info is available on my Patreon so we can like post that link but

[01:31:36] basically there's several ways you can get involved. You can be a Patreon subscriber

[01:31:41] at the book club level and have a seat whenever you want to show up. I also sell like yearly

[01:31:47] memberships and then drop in memberships for people that don't want to read 12 books a year.

[01:31:54] One cult book every month for 12 months. But we're just getting to the end of like the first

[01:31:59] year of it and it's been great. I mean, I'm actually starting an advanced cult book club

[01:32:05] now. We're gonna read some more of like the theory books and stuff and then keeping wrapping

[01:32:10] around the beginner one because that was so nice and honestly the most powerful meeting we had was I

[01:32:16] think the first one where everyone just introduced themselves and people got that moment, right?

[01:32:23] Like you're not that different. And that I would say too has been like the number one compliment

[01:32:28] I get on my social medias is just like thanks for creating this space for us to deconstruct.

[01:32:34] I said so many thousands more words than you signed up for when you asked me for my last thing.

[01:32:39] No, I love it. Well, and I was gonna say my last thing is what encouragement would you offer people

[01:32:44] and you kind of already did that but I'll ask you again in case there's anything else you want to

[01:32:48] throw in there. What kind of encouragement would you offer people who are maybe feeling like

[01:32:52] avoiding their religious past is the only way to escape it? So what I would say is number one

[01:33:00] deconstruction sucks. You can buy that t-shirt in my links. It's really, really hard. It's

[01:33:09] a little curve where it's going to get harder before it gets easier. But I do like to reassure

[01:33:15] people that we understand this. There's assets out there to help you. There's a whole community doing

[01:33:21] this and on the other side of it is real joy and real happiness and real love in your life.

[01:33:30] And I think the people that are too scared to do it that look at us, right? When someone

[01:33:35] starts deconstructing it usually breaks a lot of family and friend relationships but

[01:33:40] the reason they don't get why we would put ourselves through all this is because

[01:33:45] they don't understand that like the joy and the happiness on the other side.

[01:33:50] Now, just think of deconstruction and this analogy of like you're in the

[01:33:53] Rapunzel Eugene Cave and you can like see the light but there's all these rocks

[01:33:59] and you have to like pick up each one and pick it up over your head and deal with it

[01:34:04] and probably name it but then you can put it down behind you, right? And then each one

[01:34:09] like you're getting closer and closer you're getting more light in, you're getting more air

[01:34:13] and finally like that pile of rocks is still going to be there but it's going to be behind

[01:34:17] you and then you're going to be able to just like go live your life. That's such a beautiful

[01:34:21] picture and like with each one you're like getting a little more tired but you're also

[01:34:25] like closer to the light, you know? That's perfect. It's a perfect image. Thank you.

[01:34:30] All right. Well, Daniela, thank you so much for being here. I will link all of your

[01:34:35] socials and books and things in the show notes so people can find you, connect with you,

[01:34:41] join your book club, buy your knitting patterns, see how cool you are and yeah,

[01:34:47] just thank you so much for being here and for writing your story so vulnerably. It is

[01:34:51] so beautiful and we appreciate you. Thank you so much.

[01:34:55] Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello! Deconstructionists.

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[01:35:19] and clicking the link in the top banner. As always, you can find me over on Instagram

[01:35:24] at hello underscore deconstructionists where together we are building community after evangelicalism

[01:35:30] one story at a time. Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast

[01:35:35] and when this sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your head,

[01:35:39] I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you.

[01:35:43] Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us

[01:35:47] and of course to you for listening. See you next time!