S2 E4: Healing From Religious Trauma through Meditation with Nick Vallentino

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think one of the things I still struggle with is that I should be a certain

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: way. You know, whether that's the Bible in church and childhood trauma, all the things,

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: all the people that have told you your whole life, there's something wrong with you,

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you're too much, you're not enough. That is really hard. I mean, it's almost like you,

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to say you have no control over changing that because I do think you can rewire

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: your brain. I do, you know, I've been trying to do that for the last eight years of my life,

[00:00:43] [SPEAKER_01]: meditating almost daily. You know, I have spiritual practices, especially the last five years,

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: like I just went all in on this, you know, on healing myself. So I still have those thoughts.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, they aren't emotionally charged. You know, they don't trigger me. They don't scare me. But

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_04]: they're still there. Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast,

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_02]: where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion,

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_02]: along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_02]: ourselves. I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid,

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and most of all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved,

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_02]: and you are worthy just as you are. Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_02]: My guest today is Nick Valentino, who uses he him pronouns. Nick has experienced 30 years

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: of religious trauma and abuse, and has since figured out how to be happy and take his own life

[00:02:16] [SPEAKER_02]: back. Now he's helping you do the same as a religious trauma coach, and by sharing his own story on

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the podcast today. So welcome Nick. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, I'm so happy to be here.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for having me. Yeah. Is this your first podcast? No, I think I've done four now. Oh,

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you're not a podcast newbie. That's like a, this is like a pro. Is it really? I just started

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: like last month. Yeah, it's so new to me. Okay, I started doing this in December. All of this had

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: no plans to do any of this. Yeah. Yeah. So what are you doing? We'll go out of order. I gave you

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: an order and then we're going to mix it up. So yeah, what are you, what are you doing now?

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you know, I hate putting labels on it, but it's kind of like a coach. I just want to

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: help people that have religious trauma help them heal, figure out how to frickin be happy,

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, it almost destroyed me. I was, you know, in a really bad place when I started

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: deconstructing, I left the church and so yeah, just out here trying to help people by sharing

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: my story, but also like through coaching, accountability, encouragement, whatever you

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_01]: need, you know, whatever you're struggling with on the journey, like I want to be there

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to support you, help you heal and be happy. Yeah. All right. So tell us a little bit about

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_02]: your church experience and how you grew up and sure all things church related. Yeah.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: My mom and dad got saved when I was five and, you know, I remember almost immediately something

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: changed in the house, you know, we couldn't watch Batman. We couldn't watch cartoons anymore.

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We couldn't watch TV too much, you know, and mom and dad seemed to not be fighting as much

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and pretty much from there within the next three, four years, my dad became a pastor

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and then a few years later started a church and then a few years later became a missionary and

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: started planting churches all over the place. And so my whole upbringing was in church. I lived

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: for church, you know, we were there pretty much every day, every night to the place when I, when

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I turned 18, my dad hired me and, you know, I became a youth pastor and a janitor and all

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the things. And so yeah, grew up in the church and then yeah, started working for my dad and,

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, eventually left working with my dad and started working with other churches and

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: did that for another 16, 17 years, you know, as a pastor in different churches. Even started

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: my own church at one point. I had a church in Phoenix, Arizona for a few years. So yeah,

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it's been my whole life until my mid 30s. Do you remember a time before church? Like when,

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: like you were five when they got saved, do you remember what was different about

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_02]: pre and post saved parents? Yeah, I just remember the only, you know,

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and even this, you know, you don't even know how much of it you know, it was actually real. But

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I seem to remember because I was so young that they just weren't fighting as much

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because my parents, my parents when they got saved, they were cokeheads, partyers, just extreme.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: My dad had been in jail, in and out of jail. And you know, they were just wild, you know,

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: no education, didn't have parents around much and had me when they were 16, you know, so young.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: They were 16, so young. So yeah, I feel like this is, you can correct me if I'm if I'm wrong

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_02]: about this for your own experience. But I feel like that kind of story is like what church

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_02]: can do, right? It's like, okay, so these people are, I don't know,

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: cokeheads or whatever, like they're trying to, like maybe they are living in a way that's like

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: destructive to their own body. And this helped them find some like sense of stability.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you feel like looking back, this is a healthier version of your parents than they would have

[00:05:58] [SPEAKER_01]: been if they hadn't found the church? Gosh, it's impossible for me to know that only

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: because you know, it happened when I was so young. So young. But you know, I think that's a deeply

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: philosophical question that I would love to ponder. I've never really considered that.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Because when I consider this off the top of my head, I've never considered this, but off the

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_01]: top of my head, let's say you're a drug addict, you're in and out of jail, you're

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: hurting people for sure. And you're hurting the ones you love. You're in the church,

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: have a larger platform hurting lots of people all the time. So God, it's tough. You know,

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: it's really tough for me. But I want to say the church is worse.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. You know, I don't know.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I've thought about this from my own experience and my own like looking at the

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_02]: adults in the church that I grew up in. I always say my church loved like a

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: man redemption story, like a guy who was like addicted to something fill in the blank and then

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: he found Jesus and he's turned away from his sin. And that was like the ideal,

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the ideal Christian story. And when I think about the idea of Jesus, he died for your sins,

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever, if you feel like you're a sinner and like you're a bad person, that story is freeing

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in a way because you're like, Oh, I am bad. Like I view myself as bad. Yeah. Not that you are,

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: but that's how you view yourself. And so to find a way where your sins are forgiven

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_02]: is freeing. When you're just born into this and the default is like you're a sinner just for existing,

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: that's a really damaging story. But depending on what you're coming into it with,

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, you're going to take that story a different way. But it seems like your parents

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: were maybe the kind of people for whom that story actually kind of works or could be comforting,

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: even if they still do damage, it could be absolutely because you come in,

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: it's under this guise of love. It's always initially love, acceptance, forgiveness,

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: all the great things we love about Christianity. And I believe it's love bombing at its finest.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You experience that with the church and a community of people for a season of time.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's euphoric. And then things start to shift and you start to see there's a lot more judgment

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_01]: than you thought there would be in there and you know, all these things. And so now,

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but you're stuck. Now, you know, this is an abuser, but you already have fallen in love with them

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: because they love bombing. And now you're anxiously waiting. Are they going to love me

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: today? Not love me today, you know, and it creates such internal chaos and you're,

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_02]: it's an addiction. It's like a trauma bond. Yeah. Okay. So what are some of the beliefs that

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: you internalized or like, what are some of the things that coming out of church? You're

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: like, Oh my God, that was damaging. Oh, that's that's several times. I mean,

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: are you kidding me? Wow. Oh my God, there's so many things. There's so many things. Yeah,

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_01]: top of my, you know, off top of my head. Let's think

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_01]: so damaging, you know, look, you know, I'll speak about things that

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I never would have imagined could happen, you know, and that I've never heard anyone talk

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: about, you know, things were really hard for me is that I was a love bomber. So coming

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_01]: out of a healthy relationship, period friendships, intimate relationships. I saw

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like the effects of purity culture, like really deep in me, you know, to the point where

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: like I couldn't perform sexually for years outside of the church, like it was like so deeply in

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_01]: my head. The girl wasn't a Christian and all of these things that, you know, still to this

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: day, it blows my mind because my heart is in it, you know, but, but my body, it's so crazy how deep

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the stuff I discovered was that I didn't even know right was there. So yeah,

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: what else? I mean, those are just off time I had things that I've been heaven, heaven.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I think heaven completely detached me from reality, attached me from reality. And

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I lived a life in a bubble and as a result when I left the church now I'm in

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the real world and nothing makes sense. And everything feels really hard and overwhelming

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and confusing. Yeah, I mean, I could go on on anxiety. I live with anxiety for, you know,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_01]: four or five years, like debilitating anxiety, panic attacks. And I was told to pray,

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and so messages like that your whole life just being told to pray when

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you're hurting or somebody's hurting you, you don't know how to take care of yourself

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: ever because that's always been suppressed. And so as an adult year, I was in my 30s and I don't

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: know how to take care of me. I don't even know what that means. When somebody would say, you

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: know, listen to your body, be like, what the hell are you talking about? What I had no concept

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_01]: of what that because it never mattered, you know, all that stuff. So yeah, I mean, just so

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: many things that are so damaging starting at a young age, you know, I guess another way to

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_02]: think about this question is maybe like, because yeah, sometimes like, okay, that's really

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: overwhelming to be like, what are all the bad things about church? Because we could go on forever.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_02]: What are some reasons that you feel like this, like when I asked about whether church or the life

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_02]: your parents were living before church, which one was more damaging and you said church for sure.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: What makes you say that? Like, what about it is like, that's worse, you're causing harm to people.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man, again, I you know, I feel unprepared to answer this question. I'll just give it a shot and

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: be willing to say I messed up if I make a mistake here. But

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: that's what we're all doing. Yeah, because it's off the top of my head, right? And I've never

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: considered it. But when I think of the scope of the damage within my own family, and then

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: that's now been multiplied across how many churches and how many thousands of people,

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I don't know. I haven't investigated all of this or anything of that nature, right? But

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: the more I have looked into things and again, I was behind, you know, behind the curtain my whole

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: life in church. So I saw the in and outs of so many different denominations and thousands of

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_01]: pastors, you know, I worked at a mega church for 10 years, one of the biggest ones in the

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: country. So I mean, I just saw so many things. And it the amount of damage I've seen and not

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: just you know, we're talking people, how many people I have met with since coming out of the

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: church, I can't I can't go anywhere. If I mentioned that I am in the religious trauma world, I

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: just say those words, it's going to be an hour conversation. Like there's so much hurt

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: that is happening in churches and messages that are so damaging. Whereas, you know, look,

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_01]: you're a drug addict, you get your girl pregnant at 16. But you know, my dad had a business, it's

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: not like he was a bum, you know, he was a hardworking man, they were just addicted to drugs and loved

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_01]: to party. Like, you know, like, is that I mean, it might be a sinful life, but you're not really

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: hurting, you know, like, I mean, it's pretty normal life. As long as you're not, I don't think

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: my dad was ever like beating my mom or anything like that, you know, they'd have big fights and

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff. But I never saw him hit her. So yeah, I mean, to me, they were kind of pretty normal,

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe just with like a little bit of a drug problem. But then you become a pastor and plant

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: churches all over the world and things and the extent of the damage that I've seen witnessed

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just it's hard for me to imagine this is better. No, no. But for them, it's better

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe, you know. Yeah, but you're right. Like the scope of influence maybe that you have as a pastor

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_02]: or like as somebody in church, any kind of church leadership, I mean, you're reaching so many

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_02]: people even in like a small church, like I grew up in a really small, small town, small church.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like every summer I worked at a summer camp and I was, you know, preaching these

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_02]: terrible ideas to kids and how many kids went through camp in my time there. And it's like,

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_02]: we just, I mean, our goal is to preach the gospel. Sure. It's damaging. Right. It's wild. Yeah.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It's wild to think about. My dad right now he has two churches. Okay. So, you know,

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: every week for the past 20 years, he's been in, you know, building churches and preaching

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_01]: these messages. And I just thought, you know, one of my dad's big things is discipleship.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So not only, you know, he he's in this position in place of power that young men come to my dad

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: to be trained how to be like this. You know, so it's like exponential what I've, you know,

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how many pastors my dad's raised up and how many, you know, that's what they're all about.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Go plan another church, go play, get another guy in here, let's train him up, send him

[00:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: out, you know, make some more money. The church is literally a fucking pyramid scheme. It's like,

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: if you bring two people to church, you, you know, your inheritance will be whatever I don't know.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like so wild. Yeah. Right. We are what do you, you don't actually get it's the

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: shittiest pyramid scheme of all because like you give your life to it and you get no

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you don't make a ton of money, you know, but you're laying up treasures in heaven.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. No, it's an MLM run by men. Oh my God. Most MLMs are like women centered, you know,

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the church is a man's MLM.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the men's virgin. Oh, you're right. It really is.

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's maybe I've never considered that. This is your Lula Roe, you know?

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I just watched that documentary. I was pretty interested. Yeah. I had no idea what that

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: was, but I watched that MLM stuff is like it's always felt so churchy to me and maybe that's

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_02]: why. Like it always felt so like it feels like a cult documentary to me, which are weirdly comforting,

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_02]: you know? But maybe that's why there's like a pretty strong connection.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. I mean, I watched those. It's like watching what is it shiny happy people.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's pretty similar. Yeah.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Have you seen the Amazon Prime docuseries shiny happy people?

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Were you shocked to hear the wholesome American Duggar family was involved in a cult?

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_04]: A cult full of abuse, sex and religious trauma.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_04]: A cult that claimed to educate children and plan to use them to take over the world.

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[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_05]: a podcast by IBLP survivors centering their lived experiences and shining a light on all the

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_05]: hidden torment and harm they endured growing up in the cult shown on the groundbreaking docuseries.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_04]: We have exclusive interviews with cast members where we laugh and cry

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[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_05]: check out Leaving the Village on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or on your favorite podcast platform.

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[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Can you tell me about your time in church leadership? Because you went right from like

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_02]: being a kid to being a youth pastor it sounds like. Yeah. With zero qualifications, by the way.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: God doesn't... Okay. What's the phrase? God doesn't call the qualified. He qualifies the

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_01]: called. There it is. Yeah. It's so funny. I remember that one. Yeah. So I got thrown in the youth ministry.

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't say I got thrown in, I got wanted it. I was really excited about it but

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: shouldn't have been given that kind of a position. But it was for my dad's church. So

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not... I can't take too much credit for it. You know, but I was doing everything

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_01]: so excited about God just so happy in life completely into that bubble. You know,

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_01]: fully dedicated. So I grew up in the church in my teen years. I went a little wayward.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I smoked cigarettes sometimes and every now and then would curse and had a secret girlfriend.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But was still like a really good kid, you know? But I'd get in trouble all the time for

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it's just stupid things because I wasn't allowed to date till I was 18. Like ridiculous rules

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that I broke but... And so then at 17, my dad basically kicked me out of the house. I got

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_01]: my GED and they threatened to kick me out of the house, sent me to Bible college or I had no

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_01]: word to go. So I went to Bible college. Yeah. And so in Bible college that's kind of when I had my

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: real like one year of partying. Like I was by myself in Southern California Bible college

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and everyone parties at Bible college, you know? So I get kicked out of Bible college. My first...

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Your Bible college was way cooler than mine. I went to Christian college and I did not do

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: any partying. So I should have gone to yours. Well, I probably just hung with the wrong crowd,

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you know? It's probably not everyone party, just my friends. But so yeah, I get kicked out and that

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: you know is so shameful at that. I was just so embarrassed and that was kind of like when

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_01]: God finally got a hold of my life, you know? And my dad had just moved to Puerto Rico.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We were from New York. My dad just moved to Puerto Rico to start church. And so he,

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I went out when I got kicked out of Bible college. Just like come back son.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so basically from day one, I helped my dad build this church in Puerto Rico

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_01]: and did that for like six years. So yeah, he hires me as his youth pastor. I'm so excited.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fired for the Lord and did so many really cool things. I ended up becoming the college

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: pastor. As I got a little older as the worship leader, we recorded albums, we did concerts.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We had a cool cafe thing where we did concerts on Friday nights and I loved it.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I was just serving the Lord, you know, up until I was like 23. I loved serving with my dad

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_01]: until I met this girl and wanted to move back to the States. But then yeah, from there, I went

[00:19:52] [SPEAKER_01]: to ultimately because I met a girl and moved back to the States.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_02]: That's why they tell you not to date. Yeah, it's seriously right. Yeah.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: He had cheap labor. That's why, you know, so yeah, I went to New Mexico because that's where

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: by this point, I was going to marry this woman and worked at a church there,

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the mega church for 10 years and then kind of floated around for a little while.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I went to like Phoenix started a church, worked at a couple other churches.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And then yeah, I left the church. That's the bird's eye version of it, you know,

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: after all that, it's a lot. Was the mega church that you were at initially in like New York City,

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: New York? No, no, it's part of Calvary Chapel. So it's one of the biggest Calvary

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Chapels, but it actually at the time I think was like the eighth biggest church in America.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's huge. The church is ridiculous. It's insane, you know.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Wow. Okay, then tell us about your deconstruction. What's the quick and then I left church.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so okay, my deconstruction man, it's hard for me to, to I've tried to write this out so I

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: could be more articulate, you know, trying to condense, you know, because mine really happened

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: over so long of a period of time deconstructing, especially getting to the point where I no

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: longer like I saw Christianity as a weapon of evil, you know, to get to that point took

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: me so many years. But I would say it all started just when I started studying the Bible for myself.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So one of the cool things about Calvary Chapel is that they're, you know, really adamant about

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: studying the Bible yourself. So I did that, you know, I remember as a 12 year old kid

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_01]: getting a Strong's Concordance. I don't remember that book. It's this really big book where you

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: like look up words, you know, and I was so excited and my first leather Bible, you know,

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was so excited. Like I loved the Bible. So I got to start studying the Bible.

[00:21:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't remember exactly what happened, but probably like Bible college going to

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Puerto Rico, you know, on fire for the Lord, I started just going deeper and deeper and

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: deeper and study. And I remember just really being confused as I started preaching as a youth

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: pastor studying the Bible in depth. Because as I studied, there was no consensus on what all of

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: this stuff meant. And there hasn't been for thousands of years. But the way I had always

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: been taught it was and the way I was hearing it preached week after week, it was as if

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: this is God's word when I'm telling you this means. And that became really uncomfortable.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say that was the first time that I can look back and say cognitive dissonance

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: kicked in hard there. Because it was really hard for me intellectually to wrap my mind around

[00:22:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that. Then I went to seminary, I studied Greek, I studied Hebrew, and I started reading the Bible

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_01]: in a dead language and realizing nobody I mean, I'm talking some of the more brilliant people

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: on the earth who have dedicated their lives to Scott like studying this book. And they know

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: way more than any pastor I've ever talked to. And they're like, I don't believe in God,

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: because there's like, you know, they've deconstructed because as you read,

[00:23:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying that all of them have but I would dare say a majority of them have

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_01]: deconstructed as they've gone in and really pulled apart the Bible, at least to the point

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_01]: where it's really impossible to say like this is an inspired by God book without just saying

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that by faith despite clear evidence to the opposite. So yeah, I would say that's where

[00:23:28] [SPEAKER_01]: it all started just for years and years on preaching the Bible preaching the Bible

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_01]: studying the Bible and more and more I realize. And then I would hear, you know, like some of the

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_01]: preachers I really admired and pastors and the way that they would talk about verses and how

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: manipulative it sounded and how they're kind of twisting things or how they're they're omitting

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: these other perspectives on this text, you know, and how harmful all of that is. So I would

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: say that was just intellectually it became harder for me and harder to sit in church.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I wish I had a really great story that like it all just deconstructed but I don't you know.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the other thing was just like, I couldn't stand pastors. I just felt like they were terrible

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: people. You know, that was just my personal experience. Like, it took me a really long time

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to just admit that because the longest time I made excuses for why they treat people the

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: way they do and why this abuse and I didn't even think of it as abuse. It just, I

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't like it. I didn't like being around them. I just felt fake, always gossiping since a kid.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I can remember my mom and dad every Sunday after church in the car, gossiping about who was there,

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: what they're doing with their lives wrong, who wasn't there like every single Sunday, you know,

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and every time we're at church. So yeah, just seeing all of that just the way the behind

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: the scenes the way people were talked about the way volunteers were I mean, I can't tell you

[00:24:49] [SPEAKER_01]: how many volunteers I've seen have their hearts crushed by a church leader, you know,

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: for just the most ridiculous things. So yeah, all of that stuff it just starts piling up,

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: piling up, you know, I can tell you the last straw though, the last straw, you know, the last day

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I will never because I left the church over 10 years ago. I went back for about a

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: year and a half. I got convinced that there was hope for the church, you know, and I want to

[00:25:15] [SPEAKER_02]: know first what made you go back. Okay, that's a pretty yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, I love the story.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So I leave the church, I'm miserable for a year and a half suicidal. I moved to LA. I'm just

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: smoking pot all day every day drinking. I'm just trying not to lose my mind. I felt like

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I was going crazy. Didn't know it at the time, but I had severe PTSD. So I finally get myself

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to therapy kind of at the, you know, um, yeah, I was I was really scared. I was gonna just

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: kill myself. I went through a divorce while leaving the church, losing my career, all the things,

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: finally get to therapy, start feeling better after about six months of going every single week. I had

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: to go every week. I mean, I was so desperate, start feeling better. And yeah, after I start

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling better, I'm just living my life. I've built a business that I'm really happy about.

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not like rich or anything, but I'm able to pay all my bills. You know, it's such a big

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: thing for me coming out of the church, not having gone to, you know, traditional college and not

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: having any backup plan at all. You know? And so, you know, I started a business. It was going okay.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Living in Southern California and I'm happy, but I still would consider myself

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a quasi Christian at this point. I just don't really go to church much. You know what I

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_01]: mean? I'm just disconnected from it all. And I just look at the church kind of like now,

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I'm just bruised. I'm just so hurt. I've been so beat up. I'm so confused as to why

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm feeling so anxious all the time, why I don't like being around these people,

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_01]: why I'm seeing so much hurt in the church, you know, why things aren't lining up for me logically.

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm still just confused about it all. But I'm feeling better. And I meet this guy in Southern

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_01]: California in San Diego actually, he's a surfer guy and he it turns out he's a pastor and he

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: pastors this little church on the beach at one of my favorite surf spots. And so we get to kind of

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: know each other, we're talking and turn a fight, you know, come find out he needs a worship leader.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And in this I had never met a dude like this. Like he cursed. I'd never met a pastor. He's just

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_01]: he was just like a normal human being, you know, he we had a beer after a surf.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just remember thinking like this is so crazy, like sit down with a pastor and have

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_01]: a beer in public, you know? And I'm a surfer. I love the beach and I'm just like this

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: is my dream life right here. Like can I maybe maybe I just have been even though I've been to

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so many churches and I've been so exposed to the Christian church, like maybe there is this one

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: church that I can make this work, right? And so I'm there for about a year and a half total

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: the first year that pastor that hired me my friend Joe who's still one of my dearest friends,

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: he gets sick. He starts struggling with depression. He's always struggled with

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: depression but it got really bad. He had been the pastor for 24 years. This was the last

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the last straw for me. He had been pastor for 24 years, never taken a sabbatical. So he's really

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: struggling with depression. His marriage is struggling and he asks for a break. They give him a month

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: off at the end of the month. He still feels like he needs some more time. You know, he's like,

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_01]: look, it took 24 years the first time I'm probably going to be another 24 years. Just

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_01]: give me another month. I just want to make sure I'm ready for this. You know, want to

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: make sure my marriage is good. He's in counseling. He's looking at his medic medication dose.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like he's just doing nothing, you know. So he asked for an extension. They give it to him.

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But during that extension that month, it was there was three pastors at the church, him,

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: myself and another associate pastor. And I watched this other associate pastor gossip about him

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_01]: every single day and basically got him kicked out long story short, gets him fired

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and took over the church. And yeah, it was infuriating, like infuriating. And I just felt so

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: lost, so confused because here's Joe, the pastor that brought me on the thing that gave me hope.

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: He's sick. Now he just got kicked out of the church. And so within so that wasn't it wasn't

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: just that okay, it wasn't just that happen like I should have just let right then been like,

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know, I'm working at a church a block from one of my favorite service spots,

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: making good money. Like, you know, I'm trying to be wise here. Do I give this up even though

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I had just seen this guy malign Joe, you know, and like, do I want to work for this guy? No way

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I would ever want to work for this guy, that kind of thing. But within about two weeks,

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: he tells me, Hey man, we're gonna have to let you go just completely out of nowhere,

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, for no reason. And it was just like devastating, which I get it. He's the new

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_01]: guy and he wants to bring in somebody else. That's fine. That's his right, you know,

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: cool. But with that said, the behind the scenes is my wife at the time, she had just gotten a

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_01]: really major car accident and had been she had temporary brain damage, she had been in and out

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: of the hospital. And we needed health insurance, right? And so they knew all of this. So you

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: know, they offered to extend my life insurance for three months, instead of two weeks or it

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: was like the end of the month, it was just going to expire, you know, when I have kids,

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: like it was just traumatic, you know, and I had done a great job there. I've been faithful. So

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and then so they said they would keep me on for three months. And then they said they'd give

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: me a severance. Long story short, my last day of service, you know, they get up there. Oh,

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: we love Nick. We're so glad that you're able to be here for this season. And, you know,

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: we're sad to see you go all this BS stuff, right? And as I'm leaving, you know, I still

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: hadn't received my checks. And so I asked them was like, Hey, I still haven't received

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: my severance check. And so a guy, one of the guys goes upstairs, he's like a deacon and he

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: comes back down and say, Oh, here's your check. I don't open it in there. I should have. But I

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: wait, I get in the car, I open the check. And it was like a fourth of what they had promised me,

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, just no, no notification. And I had it in writing, like what they were going to, yeah.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was just all so, you know, I just couldn't, I just was like,

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: just tell me you're not going to pay me. Like why I just don't get, I'm done. I will never

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_02]: go. So I know that was the last day I went to church last day. Wow. Wow. Oh my God. Okay. Well,

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_02]: wait a quick follow up. Was your wife okay? After all of that? I mean, define okay. You know,

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: it's like she'll she'll never be the same. But yeah, she's fully functioning, but she

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: still gets vertigo. We're not married anymore. But we talk regularly, she still has vertigo

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and she still struggles. And she feels like there's more that she still hasn't found yet. And it's

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: been, you know, four or five years that she's still going to the doctor, still trying to make sure

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: she's figured out everything all the ways because she got, she was sitting at a red light in a drunk

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_01]: driver hit her going 45 miles an hour. She was a dead stop. Yeah, he didn't even see it.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he was belligerent drunk. And just yeah, so she got, she was really bad. Wow. And

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_02]: this is just like such a good example of how the church says that they take care of each other and

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_02]: they're so loving. And you know, we see all kinds of examples of how this doesn't actually play out

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_02]: that way. But this is an example of like not even taking care of their own, you know, like there

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_02]: are people in the church that are hurting, whether it's, you know, depression, and you're like

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: needing time off to take care of yourself or a car accident. And you're not even like, oh,

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_02]: they should keep you on because your wife got in a car accident. Fine, you have to let people go,

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you have to let people go. But like, to then just like lie about how much they're going to

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_02]: give you and like just knowing that it's setting you up for not necessarily failure,

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_02]: but like setting you up for something that's like really hard when they don't have to do that.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They could just be honest about it. In their pastors, all of the people in the world,

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01]: right, that should be able to do these kinds of things, do the right thing, they should be able

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: to. And it just at some point cognitive dissonance reduction isn't good enough,

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: no matter how much you resist and try to make sense. It just so how it ultimately manifested

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: for me was in extreme anxiety. All of that cognitive distance, while all of this, you know,

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: deconstructions happening, I'm still clinging on, I'm going back to church, I'm still trying to

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_01]: believe still holding on. Eventually it was all those things I just shared coupled with

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_01]: debilitating anxiety, my internal I felt sick all the time physically, constantly.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just got you get sick of all of that you just gets why am I doing this? Even if I'm

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: going to go to hell, it's almost like, you know, I don't know, is it better to have hell here and

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_01]: heaven later if there is one or try to have heaven here and maybe I end up in the hell. But

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. Yeah, I had such hell trauma and like fear of hell. And so it was hard to

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: let go of the idea of God because that ultimately meant like you could be going to hell,

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_02]: right? But at some point, that even felt better than staying where I was because it felt so awful.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And like that is very telling. Yeah, exactly. Right. Exactly. When was this one of this all

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_02]: happened for you? So I left, let's see, I graduated college in 2013. And by the end of

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: college, like looking back through through my journals, like I've been trying to look

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_02]: back lately because I'm like, when was the first time? And you know, every time you look back, it's

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_02]: like, Oh, I kind of had doubts here. Like, well, I kind of had doubts here. By the end of college,

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like writing in my prayer journals like, okay, I've like, I've like lost it. Like I,

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: like I've lost my, you know, fire for God or whatever. And like, I have to get it back.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was desperately trying to get it back. But I know I wasn't feeling it quite the same.

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But I still felt like I needed it. So I was definitely still believing at that point, but like,

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_02]: all the Bible classes that I had taken were kind of catching up to me in my mind. And it's like,

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_02]: okay, well, if we look at all these different ways, we could interpret the Bible and ultimately

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_02]: we're just picking which one we want or picking which one works for us. Then like,

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_02]: why do we need it at all? Like, why don't we just pick the way we want to live our life?

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, that's what we're doing. Right? I mean, that's exactly what we're already doing.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Exactly. That's a great point. I never thought of it like that.

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, I just don't need it anymore. Like, why would I go through all these mental

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_02]: gymnastics to try to keep it working when like, I could just leave the church and still live

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: my life exactly the same way or, you know, the way that I want to.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. So anyway, it was sometime after college that I stopped going and then I always say that

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: like, I stopped going to church, but I didn't acknowledge that I wasn't going and I just like

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't look, you know? And then it also like manifested as anxiety for me. I thought it was

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_02]: like severe anxiety, anxiety, blah, blah, blah. And then you go to therapy and it turns out

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_02]: you have PTSD. And I think that's a really common story, you know, like that's, it was

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_02]: like that for both of us. And I think it was like that for a lot of people.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Isn't that wild? You lived with PTSD from trying to follow God.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It trips me out and it'll never get over how unbelievable that sounds.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I mean, I still in therapy and I'm like, is this actually trauma? Like,

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_02]: but I was like, but I had a wonderful childhood. Like this isn't like,

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: this is not really like anything related to my parents. Like how, you know? And yeah,

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: it's really hard to, it's hard to wrap your mind around it. And I think it's also what,

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I think that's common with trauma is to believe that like it's not really trauma.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Which was part of the reason that I wanted to do this podcast was to remind people that

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_02]: like your experience is valid and religious trauma is trauma and it is what it is and it

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_02]: lives in our bodies and yeah, and that's real. You know,

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_01]: so good. I love that you're doing this. It's inspiring. Yeah, really. I want to,

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to do on it. It's, you know, the more, the more I think opportunities there are for

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: people to be inspired to share their story, the better more of this happening,

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, because it was impossible to make a change in this world and this,

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, in this space specifically and religious like, what do we do? You can't

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: get rid of the church. We're never going to get rid of religion, you know, and so,

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but to be able to share our stories I think is maybe just, is all we need is just more

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: platforms like yours, you know? Yeah. And, and I think hearing other people's stories is really

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: helpful, of course, but also the act of sharing is really healing for me. And I think other

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_02]: people who have been on it or have shared their stories in other ways have also said that

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: like talking through their own story helps them to process it and to own it a little bit more.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so on both ends of it, I think it's helpful in healing. So true. That's so good. I'm going

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: to steal that too. Steal it. Steal away. That's what this community is for. Yeah, I love it.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Hey everyone. I'm Maggie from the Hello Deconstructionists podcast.

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for tuning into this show. We're so grateful

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02]: that you decided to spend your time with us. Seriously, Cortland, Dan, Gail, Jessica, Megan,

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Nate, Scott and the rest of us here at the Dauntless Media Collective couldn't produce content like the

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: show you're listening to without your support. I'd also like to invite you even further into

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: the conversation. Right now there are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Media Collective Discord server. If you're interested in chatting with other folks who

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_02]: are deconstructing and decolonizing the oppressive traditions they came from,

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_02]: please feel free to stop by the server. If you don't know what Discord is, it's a place where

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: communities can gather online for chatting on a wide variety of topics. In our Discord server,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_02]: we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations, some meme sharing, therapeutic

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: venting about whatever religious bulls*** you're currently dealing with, and even a specific

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_02]: channel devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the podcast you're listening to

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[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So what are some ways that religious trauma showed up for you?

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So many ways. And again, that can get really personal. So like if you share what you want

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and don't share what you don't want. For sure, for sure. You know, I think one of the things

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I still struggle with is that I should be a certain way. You know, whether that's the Bible,

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, in church and childhood trauma, all the things, all the people that have told you

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: your whole life, there's something wrong with you, you're too much, you're not enough.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: That is really hard. I mean, it's almost like you, I don't want to say you have no control over

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: changing that because I do think you can rewire your brain. I do, you know, I've been trying

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_01]: to do that for the last eight years of my life meditating almost daily. You know, I have spiritual

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: practices, especially the last five years, like I just went all in on this, you know,

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not on healing myself. So I still have those thoughts now, they aren't emotionally charged.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they don't trigger me. They don't scare me. But they're still there.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I know how to handle them. I know how to direct, you know, redirect my thought and

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: all of the things right but but I can't tell my subconscious to stop it, you know,

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: stop connecting all of the thoughts and experiences like I can't. So yeah, I think that's

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: just really deep and it shows up, you know, in so many different, you know, even little ways in life,

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, whether it's, you know, getting lost like the other day I got lost,

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: like I didn't get lost. I just like I missed my turn, you know, it was distracted while I was

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_01]: driving. And and I was like, damn it, you know, I turned around did a U.E., went back, you know,

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: flipped around and by the time I got to my turn, I had already gotten sidetracked in my mind and I

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: missed the turn again. In my first words were like, is it cool that I curse? I should have asked you.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes. I think I already said fuck. Yeah, I was like, fuck dude, what the fuck is wrong

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: with you? You're such a fucking idiot. And I never talked like that. I never talked to

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_01]: anyone like that. But it came to myself. Yeah. And it's just like, where does that come from?

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know, I know, but how after all of these years doing all of the things,

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: how does that thing still exist in me? You know? And so yeah, it's just wild. You know,

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't I don't know if that ever goes away. You know, maybe for some it does and maybe

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: for all of us we have things different things that will linger longer, you know, but that's

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_01]: definitely one of mine. For sure. I'm never enough and I'm an achiever. I'm an Enneagram

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_01]: three. You know, I mean, so I already live with that. That's just who I am internally. Yeah.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So interesting. I got a speeding ticket. I've gotten one speeding ticket. Wow.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll probably get one like tomorrow now that I'm yeah, now that I'm bragging about this.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But I got one speeding ticket my whole life. I'm like a very cautious driver.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I like immediately like the cop pulled away and I'm like start driving again. My husband's in

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: the car with me and I was like, I'm so bad. I'm a bad person. I did a bad thing. I'm just like,

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a terrible person. And it's like, it's funny. But I also like I really felt it. It was like,

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I knew that it was right. It was like so extreme and ridiculous to be like a speeding

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: ticket means I'm a terrible person. But I like couldn't separate it. I was not wild. I was like,

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I but I'm gonna go to hell. Like I know I'm not I don't even believe this but like, I am a bad person.

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Like you said, you feel that you feel those feelings as if you do believe that's true.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Right? Yeah, that's powerful. Yeah. First beating. Yeah.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna go to jail. I'm gonna go to hell. It was like it got progressively worse. It's like,

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I have to go to court. I'm gonna go to jail. I'm gonna go to prison.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: What possibly could you go to prison for?

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Speeding I broke the law.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Broke the law.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, it's funny how those things pop up and like at times when you don't

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_02]: realize it like you miss a turn and that's where it comes up like why so dumb so petty I don't even

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: care. Yeah, it took me so long. I would say this is one of the most important parts of my healing

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: was learning to disconnect myself from all of that bullshit. So that I could feel all of these

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: feelings feel like I'm going to hell I'm a piece of shit and be able to observe it,

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: step away from it and be like what the hell is that what is happening? I'm not getting caught

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: up in that, you know, either meditate to kind of calm myself down. If I needed to experience

[00:44:53] [SPEAKER_01]: those feelings and kind of confront them great but now at this point when that shit comes up,

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm immediately aware, observe it by I have no time for that I've processed you already.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We're good. I have full, you know, confidence in my worth now. I don't need that protection

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: anymore. I have to constantly write trying to rewire my subconscious. So yeah, but otherwise

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like when you're living in that world, oh, it's, it's yeah, it's really horrible when you just

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: always caught up. That was my whole life caught up in my emotions thinking if I'm feeling this

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_01]: terrible feelings, it must be because I'm terrible. Right? Like these feelings are me or

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: these thoughts are me, but they're not they're not me. Yeah. Right. What are some ways that

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: you have healed from that and like it sounds like meditation has been big for you but are

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: other things that have helped you move through that into a healthier space?

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_01]: For sure meditation, like I that's one of them. I'm such a big proponent of meditation and

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: more importantly your way. You know, I've done meditation because I was so scared of

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_01]: things like meditation and yoga and right. And then once I got into it, I tried to make it

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: like a religious thing where I had to do it like my devotions for like 20 minutes or

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_01]: in certain positions and I realized early on in my healing, that's right. I my body just like

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: when you said like do your devotions for 20 minutes, I was like, oh, I haven't done them in a long time.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Like a physical reaction to that.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then that's what would happen to me almost when I started meditating.

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I felt like I was like it was blasphemous almost

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to sit there and try to observe my thoughts as opposed to think about God.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: You know that almost blasphemous. Yeah, you're so right like meditation.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And like why did meditation feel so hard? Like I don't do it all the time but like,

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: you know when I first started going to therapy for anxiety, my therapist was like here try

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: this meditation app whatever and I was like, that's terrible. I did that for two minutes

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: and I felt like shit like what is wrong. But like we were never supposed to spend

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02]: that much time thinking about ourselves and like spending time just in your own head.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You would never do that. Right? It should be you and God.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_02]: No, you would never, you wouldn't even be like the idea of being alone is new coming out of Christianity

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: because we were always with God right or God was always with us but like yeah. So just this

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_02]: idea of like being alone with your thoughts in your mind is very new. Anyway, okay, talk about

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: meditation. I've cut you off like three times. Oh no, I prefer this time to conversation. I love

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_01]: it. Yeah. Yeah, meditation. I tried to do it. I was super inconsistent with it because again,

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I tried to make it a religion. I read all these books and studying and I got really into it and

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_01]: then didn't do it. You know, I would like I wouldn't I would learn a lot about it but I

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_01]: didn't actually do the thing. And I think for me like my whole healing journey has always been

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_01]: about getting to the end of myself like just surrendering, you know, I really believe I

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: still believe in surrender. I think it surrenders a beautiful thing. I don't necessarily believe

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in surrendering to God but I believe in surrendering to whatever resistance you're

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: experiencing in life right? Instead of running from it, give into it and experience what that

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01]: resistance is and work yourself through it. Right? So, you know, I think meditation

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: as soon as I started it, I started to feel all this resistance and I had been learning how

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, with religious trauma like that's a it's really hard to try new things. It's really

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_01]: hard to you know, it's because of all this baggage we have like right I should be thinking about God

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: or I should this and I've never just thought about my thoughts and if I think about my thoughts

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_01]: is Satan get in there and all like all of this just bullshit in your head, you know, so meditation

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01]: ultimately, I don't want to ramble about meditation because I could but what meditation

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: helped me I got to the end of myself and realized my biggest problems I read this

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: book Holland Heathered Saul, you read that? Okay, this book changed my life. This guy is like

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I've read all his books. I've listened to all of his teaching he has. Yeah, just anyone listening

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: if you struggle with your mind and your emotions like your anxiety, your depression, the feelings

[00:49:05] [SPEAKER_01]: of sadness in your body, all of those kinds of things. And understanding that all of the

[00:49:09] [SPEAKER_01]: problems I'm having in my life are because of my thoughts and my emotions and understanding

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that I don't have to live in them. Like all of these problems are because I'm living in my thoughts

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'm living in my emotions and learning how to heal from all of that I started reading this

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_01]: book. And so he recommends meditation. But he for the first time somebody explained to me

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: why meditation beyond just like focus on your breath it'll help calm you down.

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But meditation gives you so many things, you know, whether that's awareness,

[00:49:44] [SPEAKER_01]: learning how to be present in your life, learning how to combat negative thoughts,

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_01]: learning how to regulate your nervous system like all of these things you need to be happy in life,

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_01]: meditation develops all of those things. But still my block was I don't have the time I thought

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I had to do it for 2030 minutes, you know, and so anyways long for sure I just started

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_01]: doing it I woke up in bed, I kept my lights off, put my AirPods in got my coffee laying in bed

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and started trying to meditate. Just do it, you know, just do it and just focus on your breath.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so how I really got into it was just I just tried to do it for a minute a day.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it was a lot too. It was a lot. It was hard to sit and listen to my it was

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't do it. I couldn't go more than a few seconds thinking about one thing. That's

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: why I started to realize I don't control what's happening in here. I have almost no control

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_01]: because I'm trying to observe it and it just it just keeps going, you know, so anyways, yeah,

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: meditation, meditation is such an important part has been such an important part of my healing

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and then reading education huge part of my recovery from all of this in therapy,

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I was in therapy for five years, and I still occasionally will go to therapy like I love

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: therapy. I don't think of it in any negative sense, only good things, you know, or I don't need it if

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm my life is falling apart. You know, it's just good to talk to someone about mental health and

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: where I'm at and check in so yeah. What do you what do you believe now? Like are you religious?

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like no, are you spiritual? I feel like maybe. Yeah, totally. Okay, I think so. You

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_01]: know, it's we'd have to talk about our definition of spiritual. You know, for me, spiritual is

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: connecting to the things that, you know, you find meaning in the things that you feel connected to

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the things that you value. You know, so I think that's a very different version. You know, when

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you're coming out of religion, you think of spiritual as, you know, somehow religious or

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_01]: somehow connected to a deity or something. But you know, I think this new wave of what

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_01]: spiritual, you know, it's just connecting to yourself really and into the planet and to other

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: people. And I think it's really about just like living a present life, developing your own spiritual

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: practices, you know, in terms of like what I believe, you know, just to give you insight into that,

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I've recently been down a rabbit hole of what is even truth, you know, like things like that

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_01]: is more so when you ask me like what I believe, it's like, I don't have a clue. Like, I almost

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: this was a hard thing to change coming out of religion. I don't need that anymore.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to, I believe in this, you know, I love the journey of exploring

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_01]: what is out there and what is different thoughts and perspectives. And I don't feel the need

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: to be dogmatic about anything like because because we don't know, you know, at least that's

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: today that could change tomorrow, right? But I want to say I'm open to and hopeful that there is,

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, that maybe like my deist or kind of agnostic somewhere in there, you know,

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like I'm open to that. But it could also be we're in a simulation, you know, like,

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's more probable, but I find that stuff just as interesting or multi dimension

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: universe and it literally could somehow be just a force like the universe. I don't know,

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I because of my upbringing, I'd love to believe that there is a God,

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_01]: a divine being that is personal and loves me and has taken care of me my whole life and is

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_01]: prepared a place for me to live, you know, you know,

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: happily ever after. Yeah, yeah, lollipops. Yeah, like, but whether that's true or not,

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I have no idea. I have no clue, you know. So I would say, yeah, just spiritual though,

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: like on this plane on this earth and this experience. And especially because I spent 35 years,

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_01]: not living a real life. Now it's like I really want to experience this life and be present and enjoy

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and not live anxious, not live stress, not live fearful, not live full of guilt and shame. And

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I've just been chasing happiness. And the more I've done that, the more I have found it's not

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: like I turned to God or I turned to a religion or I turned to a spiritual leader or any like

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_01]: most of it's just like science, you know, we can figure this all out and heal from this

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_02]: stuff. So this reminds me of what you said in the beginning about heaven being really harmful

[00:54:11] [SPEAKER_02]: because it takes you out of, or maybe I filled this in because this is what I have felt, but like

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_02]: the idea of heaven took me out of the here and now and like this earth, this life, this world

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_02]: and just made me focus on like, what's to come? What's after? What's after we die? Like dying is

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_02]: dying is the ultimate thing, right? To live as Christ to die is gain. So like that's what we

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_02]: should want to die and to go to heaven, but then we don't get to enjoy any of the life here. And

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_02]: like you said, it's like maybe spirituality is just like being present here on this plane,

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever it is, maybe it's the only plane, maybe it's one of many, we don't know.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But for now we're here and that's it and that's okay.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's it's perfectly okay. Yeah, and it's only because of our trauma we have a hard time with that.

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and that's really I think one of the biggest hurdles for people coming out of religion

[00:55:12] [SPEAKER_01]: is just admitting that, acknowledging that, right? I like to end with some kind of encouragement

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_02]: for listeners. So could you offer some encouragement to people deconstructing? Could

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_02]: you offer encouragement to Enneagram threes who are like achievers, go getters, let's do it,

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_02]: get the award, put it on the wall. Yeah, because I think living in this kind of

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_02]: unknown with no particular goal can be really hard for threes.

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, could you offer encouragement to the Enneagram threes out there struggling

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_02]: through deconstruction? Oh, God, you know,

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: man, I would say I'm sorry. You know, my, it's hard to state to be encouraging because it's

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: hard. It's really hard. You know, and it's easy for me to throw some little cliche statement that,

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, do this and every no, it's hard. It's really hard. It was really hard for me.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It was really hard for me not to have like structure goals purpose like my whole life

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_01]: had been that. And, you know, even to this day, I still struggle with things like that, you know,

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and I kind of shared a little bit in the podcast already just, you know, finding your purpose

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and how important that is. And if you're going through that, yeah, I think I would,

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I would just say I'm sorry I see you, you know, and I can share with you what's helped me

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_01]: is a commitment to taking care of myself. And I've tried to because you're deconstructing,

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you're trying to heal it is so much, it's so much to deal with that. Yeah, I think you have to

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: really be committed to, you know, focusing all of that Enneagram three energy. This is what

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: it took for me to heal is to focus it on myself for a season. And I feel like that's

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_01]: the only way I found relief. You know, I tried to figure out my belief system and the more I kept

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_01]: trying to do that, the further I felt I was getting closer to understanding what my new world view was.

[00:57:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, the more I tried to like fill it with, you know, is it a different kind of

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_01]: church and all of these things that you're processing and working through and just didn't

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_01]: help me, you know, I did have that about healing, you know, and just really focusing on

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: myself and taking care of myself. And I give, yeah, I give me a little bit credit, you know,

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_01]: for that. But I also know the flip side of that is the whole time I was always stressed and anxious

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and tired. And so, yeah, I guess my only encouragement is try to give it more to yourself

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_01]: than than the other things that are fighting for your attention. I don't expect you're going to

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_01]: ever be able to stop doing those other things but to try to do that. And then I would just

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01]: say like be kind to yourself. It's a season that, you know, you're gonna probably have to

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: tell yourself that I did thousands and thousands of times, you know, every time you're in your

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_01]: head and you're being yourself up and you're not doing enough or, you know, you're gonna

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_01]: have to continue to tell yourself like this is a lot. I'm doing my best. And that is enough,

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, and that I am enough. So yeah. Yeah, I love that commitment to taking care of

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_02]: yourself. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's like you are now the project, the goal. That's,

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_02]: that's the thing. And I will make anyone an award if you need a certificate, you know, of like

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_02]: achievement. I have done it. I have been committed to myself for whenever you need an award. Let me

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_01]: know. I'll make you one. Yeah, and I'm a Leo. I was cursed, dude. I'm an Enneagram 3 Leo.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I don't know the Enneagram types. I know the astrology signs I do not know.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. But I need to learn them because they're fun too.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. It's more just like conversation, right? Like that's something I didn't even know.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Like not out of the church, but that's more like how people outside the church talk or

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_01]: church Christians use Enneagram, you know, for the more part, but compared to like everyone

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01]: knows a Leo and a Leo needs an award, you know, well, the cliche about Leo's is that they

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_02]: need awards and attention. Okay. Anyway, so Nick, we will make you an award,

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_02]: an award for being on the podcast.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. I did it. No, I love this. Thank you so much for sharing, sharing your story,

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_02]: being committed to yourself, being committed to other people's healing. Yeah, thanks so much.

[00:59:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Maggie. I loved it. Great conversation. You're fun to talk to.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello! Deconstructionists.

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[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_02]: after evangelicalism one story at a time. Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song

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