S2 E3: The Exvangelicals with Sarah McCammon

[00:00:01] This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:07] I mean, I think there's a real danger there that, I mean, and I think this is again not

[00:00:12] just a danger for evangelicals but particularly in this moment where there is such an overwhelming

[00:00:18] amount of data, I guess you could say, and information crossing our phones every day.

[00:00:25] This idea of information hygiene is really important and I'm not quite sure what we do about it

[00:00:30] but I know I try to teach my kids like when they make a claim, well where did that come

[00:00:35] from? Who told you that? How do you know that? Because there's a lot of, there's just so much

[00:00:41] swirling out there that it's just not true.

[00:01:16] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:01:20] share our stories and experiences of leading high control religion along with what it's

[00:01:25] been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:01:30] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most of

[00:01:34] all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy

[00:01:39] just as you are.

[00:01:41] Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:01:45] My guest today is Sarah McCammon. Sarah is an NPR correspondent and author of The Exvangelicals,

[00:01:51] Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church. Sarah, thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:56] My followers and a friend of mine on Instagram was so excited when I said that I was interviewing you.

[00:02:03] She said, I'm just going to read it so she can fangirl for a minute. She said,

[00:02:06] I'm the biggest Sarah McCammon fan. I can't wait for the episode. I loved the way she approached

[00:02:11] her NPR coverage of the evangelical support of Trump even way back in 2016. I've followed

[00:02:15] her on socials for years and her realistic takes on being a working mom are spot on and

[00:02:20] fire. So thank you for the work that you do. We are so excited to have you here on the podcast.

[00:02:24] Oh, thank you so much. That's so kind.

[00:02:27] So we're here to talk about deconstruction and we'll also talk a little bit about your

[00:02:31] reporting of the 2016 election and what that was like for you and a little bit about your book in

[00:02:38] there as well. But can you start by giving us just a little bit of background about your church

[00:02:41] experience? Where did you grow up? What was that like for you? What kind of ideas did you believe?

[00:02:47] Sure. You know, I always say that I grew up evangelical, but I didn't really like use that term

[00:02:52] until ironically, I went to a college that had evangelical in the name. But, you know,

[00:02:58] we just called ourselves Christians and we knew lots of different kinds of Christians,

[00:03:01] but, you know, in retrospect, they were the people we consider Christians and valid Christians

[00:03:06] were conservative theologically and usually politically and were by and large evangelical

[00:03:13] slash fundamentalist, which, you know, we could have a separate conversation about where the

[00:03:17] line is between those two. The church I grew up in was charismatic, non-denominational, you know,

[00:03:23] raising your hands, speaking in tongues, believing in spiritual gifts, praying for miracles, that kind of

[00:03:27] thing. We were skeptical of some of the other churches that did some of the same things because

[00:03:31] they didn't, you know, quite do them right. Or there were things that seemed sketchy. You know how

[00:03:34] that is. Like the lines we draw in retrospect, again, are just really fascinating. But I grew up

[00:03:40] kind of exposed to a variety of evangelical slash fundamentalist slash theologically conservative

[00:03:46] Protestant traditions. I went to a Christian school that was, you know, a mix of people from

[00:03:51] the Kansas City area where I grew up. There were mostly like Baptist Bible church, some, you know,

[00:03:58] Methodist, a few mainline people. But again, you know, anybody that would go there was pretty

[00:04:02] theologically conservative. And, you know, so I knew that we had some differences on like whether

[00:04:07] we believed in speaking in tongues or not, that kind of thing. And even questions like, can you lose

[00:04:12] your salvation or not? And, you know, pre-trib, post-trib, you know, eschatology. But fundamentally,

[00:04:20] we all kind of believed the same things. We believed in Jesus. We believed in the literal view of the Bible.

[00:04:24] We believed in creationism. We believed in saving sex for marriage. And this was in the 80s and 90s.

[00:04:30] So I was kind of growing up at, you know, in many ways, the peak of purity culture and the peak of

[00:04:36] the rise of the religious right. And that all really formed kind of, you know, the backbone of my

[00:04:42] childhood and my childhood community. In your book, you talk a little bit about this feeling like

[00:04:49] heaven would be kind of boring and also kind of picturing what hell would be like and imagining

[00:04:56] burning there. And like you have such a vivid picture in your mind of what that's like even

[00:05:00] at a young age. Can you talk a little bit about that? And tied in with that, you also have a

[00:05:05] grandfather who your family had kind of talked about as not being Christian. And so you had kind

[00:05:11] of imagined what it would be like for him to burn in hell. So can you talk a little bit about that

[00:05:15] and how that shaped you? Yeah. I mean, and I've wondered kind of where some of those ideas came

[00:05:20] from because I think they came generally from my parents, but I think it was much bigger than that.

[00:05:25] You know, most of the TV I watched was, you know, either a little bit of public television

[00:05:31] with some caveats or, you know, Saturday morning cartoons, or the only thing that was really kind

[00:05:36] of like unrestricted was the Christian station in Kansas City. And, you know, there was a show

[00:05:41] called Gospel Bill. I don't know if anybody remembers it, but had some like really scary

[00:05:46] episodes about hell. And, you know, at the same time I was being told by my parents and my pastors

[00:05:51] that like anybody who didn't believe in Jesus was going there. And then, you know, you get a little

[00:05:56] older and in youth group, you do the youth group skits that are all about, you know, hell. And so I was

[00:06:02] very scared of it. And I think I've always kind of had a vivid imagination. And so that was,

[00:06:06] and that was something that was, you know, talked about a fair amount. And, you know,

[00:06:11] there was this real urgency about telling everybody, saving everybody or getting people

[00:06:15] saved, getting them to accept Christ. And as you said, a lot of that was focused in my home on

[00:06:21] praying for my grandfather and trying to be a, you know, what we would call a witness, set an example.

[00:06:27] We were told that, you know, he wasn't saved and we had to, you know, pray for him just about every

[00:06:32] night at dinner and also sort of live our lives in a way that he would be drawn to Jesus in us.

[00:06:37] And, you know, I remember feeling like, you know, I was, I was a firstborn, very like, you know,

[00:06:44] typical, dutiful, firstborn, good kid, delight to have in class kind of child and, you know,

[00:06:53] three younger siblings. And I just felt a lot of responsibility to like set an example for them,

[00:06:58] you know, to exhibit whatever I was supposed to exhibit that would hopefully save my grandpa.

[00:07:02] I mean, I knew I couldn't save him, but that Jesus could save him and I had to sort of lead him

[00:07:06] there. And I really tried, you know, I prayed fervently. I worried about him and some of my

[00:07:11] extended family that weren't a Christian and, you know, year after year went by and not only did he

[00:07:17] not become a Christian, but I, I found out that he was gay, that he had come out as gay, you know,

[00:07:22] later in life. I write about that too. And so it was this really kind of intense set of feelings

[00:07:29] and experiences and experiences and this really kind of profound juxtaposition of different worlds

[00:07:34] that I was being exposed to both in my, you know, immediate family and my school and church community.

[00:07:40] And then just outside of that ring was on the periphery was my extended family and my grandfather

[00:07:45] who also lived in Kansas city, but kind of represented, you know, the things that we were worrying about

[00:07:51] and warned about. You talk about learning that your grandfather was gay or as your dad told you,

[00:07:57] a homosexual, what was that experience like for you? And then, you know, your sister was asking

[00:08:02] you about your grandfather and if you thought she was gay. And what was that like for you to kind of

[00:08:07] balance that line between, like you say in the book, obeying your parents or telling the truth to

[00:08:12] your sister because they had told you not to share that. What was that experience like for you?

[00:08:17] Yeah. I described in one of the chapters, just kind of how I came to discover that he was gay. And it

[00:08:22] was just, I won't describe all of it here, but like it was this kind of awkward conversation,

[00:08:26] set of conversations. And when I found out it all kind of, I was about 12 or so and it all kind of

[00:08:32] made sense because, you know, it was, there were anybody who wasn't evangelical, who met my

[00:08:37] grandfather, knew anything about his life would have figured it out in about five minutes.

[00:08:42] But it's not even an option for us. So like you can have all the facts laid out in front of you

[00:08:46] and still not make the connections, you know?

[00:08:48] Yeah. And so, you know, I was, I think I was in retrospect, like less upset about it than

[00:08:55] just sort of, I was sort of surprised, but also like, again, as I reflected on it, you know,

[00:09:00] he almost had, you know, he loved the opera, he loved the ballet and it was just, it all kind of fit.

[00:09:06] It all kind of made sense. Not that everyone who's gay is into that stuff, but, but he, he sort of,

[00:09:11] you know, checked a lot of boxes, shall we say. And, and, and I have to say he had, he had

[00:09:15] exposed me to the arts and to all of these things throughout my childhood. Whenever we had a very

[00:09:19] limited relationship, but whenever he had a chance, he would invite me to these things. And,

[00:09:23] you know, I was always kind of in awe of, of the, of these sort of things that I wasn't being

[00:09:29] exposed to in the evangelical world. And I remember just going to a ballet with him and loving it,

[00:09:33] not realizing that that was not your traditional thing to do with your grandpa in the Midwest in the

[00:09:39] 1990s. But, but I'm so grateful that, that he did show me those things and had those interests,

[00:09:43] but that aside, you know, the, the bigger worry was sort of like my parents explained to me what

[00:09:50] was going on, but also in the same breath basically said, you know, we don't want your siblings to be

[00:09:54] exposed to this lifestyle. We don't want to normalize the homosexual lifestyle as they put it.

[00:09:59] And I was told not to tell anybody even though I'd kind of figured it out. And so, yeah, there were,

[00:10:05] there were some moments where my siblings, you know, would ask questions or would also sort of start

[00:10:09] to catch on who's this roommate that grandpa has, et cetera. And it was, it was really uncomfortable.

[00:10:15] There was this moment where I just felt a real tension between, you know, I'd been told to tell

[00:10:19] the truth, but I also had been told to honor my parents and, you know, kind of tried to deflect

[00:10:24] their questions. But once they got a little older, I decided once they were 18, I would tell them the

[00:10:30] truth because they were adults. And I did at least one of my siblings and, you know, everyone reacted

[00:10:36] to it in different ways. And I'm happy to say that ultimately, I think all my siblings were totally fine

[00:10:42] with it and respectful of it. And, and I was able to spend, you know, a lot of years getting to know

[00:10:47] both my grandpa and his, his life partner. You know, he had a 30 year marriage to my grandmother before

[00:10:53] she died too young. And then he had, I think about a 30 year relationship with his partner. Those are not

[00:10:59] exact numbers, but you know, it was, it was, it was kind of like two major chapters to his life at least.

[00:11:04] And, you know, there was a lot that I just kind of came to slowly understand, but it really did,

[00:11:10] again, forced me to sort of reckon with what I thought about all of that.

[00:11:14] Did your views of LGBTQ people start to shift then, or was it not until later as you started

[00:11:21] to deconstruct more, which we'll get into, but was it not until later that you started to

[00:11:25] change your own opinions about LGBTQ people?

[00:11:30] You know, when I first even became aware that LGBTQ people existed, it was in the context of

[00:11:36] really some of the political fights that were shaping up in the, even in the eighties, you know,

[00:11:41] I remember seeing a news story about something related to gay rights and that it also might've

[00:11:46] been related to the HIV epidemic. And, you know, I, I didn't know anybody that was gay that I knew

[00:11:53] of and it just hadn't occurred to me, you know, as a thing that existed, I just didn't know.

[00:11:56] I was a little, little kid, you know, but at that time, I think anything about sex was kind of

[00:12:00] like weird and confusing to me. And so it was all kind of weird and confusing. And I didn't,

[00:12:05] I just didn't think a lot about it, you know, other than, okay, you know, I was told that some

[00:12:09] people wanted to marry somebody of the same sex and that was not something that got approved of.

[00:12:13] That was as simple as, as it was put to me. And then it was, you know, only a few years later

[00:12:17] that I discovered that my own grandpa was gay. And at that time it was, you know, I was disturbed by

[00:12:22] it to some extent. I mean, I remember just kind of being like struggling with how to process it.

[00:12:26] But, but again, at the same time, it's like, I already knew him, loved him, respected him.

[00:12:31] It kind of fit. It was, I had, you know, very complicated feelings about it,

[00:12:35] but I remember within a few years, you know, I'm growing up, I was born in 81. So I'm like

[00:12:40] a teenager in the nineties as like some of the first same sex marriage fights are really starting

[00:12:45] to brew. And some of the state legislatures are proposing, you know, the quote unquote defensive

[00:12:49] marriage act. And Congress is also talking about that kind of legislation. And I remember having

[00:12:54] the thought as a teenager, like, okay, I think this is a sin, right? I was told it was a sin,

[00:13:01] but also being a little confused about why it was something that we were spending a lot of time on

[00:13:06] when it came to legislation. And so I think as I got older, there was a stage where I thought,

[00:13:12] well, this is a sin in the same way that I, you know, I wasn't having premarital sex. I thought

[00:13:15] that was a sin. But I also thought, I felt uncomfortable with a lot of the people around me

[00:13:21] seeming to be so focused on that as something that they should prohibit through law. I was,

[00:13:26] I was at the time as a teenager, I was, I would have identified as very conservative and having

[00:13:30] the belief that government should take a limited role in our lives. You know, I would have paid

[00:13:34] lip service to that idea. And I think believed it pretty sincerely. So the idea that the government

[00:13:38] would, you know, say who you can and can't marry, it was a little bit hard for me to grapple with,

[00:13:43] but I also heard adults in my life, you know, make the argument that, well, you know,

[00:13:46] the family was created by God in a certain way, and this is the way it needs to be.

[00:13:49] And I think that was probably what I would have told you at, you know, 15. By the time I got

[00:13:55] through college, I was having a harder and harder time with that idea. I think I was getting to know

[00:14:02] my grandpa better, and I was thinking more about what I thought about that. And, and, you know,

[00:14:06] over time, I think I became aware that there were different ways of viewing this question,

[00:14:11] even within a Christian perspective. And so it was like many things, I think something that my views

[00:14:16] just gradually shifted on, I would say that my personal political views on it shifted before my

[00:14:22] religious views did. Of course, now, you know, in 2024, you know, there's pretty overwhelming support

[00:14:29] for same sex marriage, you know, even among younger evangelicals, there's strong support. So that is

[00:14:33] something that has really shifted, you know, in a generation, not to say there aren't those who still

[00:14:39] oppose it, but I think that's an, that's an issue that's, I don't know what that evangelical

[00:14:43] theology has changed much. But I think the younger generation has a different sentiment about public

[00:14:47] policy. And, and do you think it's that they've kind of separated, like, here's what I can believe,

[00:14:53] these are my own religious beliefs, and here's what we should legislate for other people?

[00:14:58] That, I haven't asked anyone that question directly. And I haven't reported on this myself. But

[00:15:03] that seems like a plausible theory. Yeah, it seems like that's kind of where your mind went as a

[00:15:10] kid or as a teenager. And so, yeah, I'm wondering. Yeah, I don't know. It'd be interesting to find out.

[00:15:15] I think some of it has to do, a lot of it has to do with just visibility. Like, it's harder to think

[00:15:20] that there's something really intrinsically wrong with being LGBTQ if you know people who are,

[00:15:27] and love them and care about them. And, you know, take their self report seriously. I think,

[00:15:34] you know, as I got older and into my 20s, and frankly, got to know more people who were gay or

[00:15:40] lesbian, and, you know, had close friends who, who were gay or lesbian, I just, you know, I'm thankful

[00:15:47] I had a couple of friends, I was able to have pretty honest conversations with just about sort of

[00:15:50] how they experienced that growing up. And it sort of confirmed for me what I already was feeling,

[00:15:55] suspecting, you know, that this is just how some people are. And I think, you know, for many,

[00:16:00] many progressive Christians, they start to view that as well, this is how, you know, part of the

[00:16:04] spectrum of human creation. And I think we grew up in kind of similar, similar ways and similar beliefs.

[00:16:11] And if we believe what the adults in our lives tell us, then we believe that gay people are scary

[00:16:20] and bad. And they come with this, you know, they're just kind of this whole package deal that's like

[00:16:25] sinful and bad. And then when you learn that that's maybe not actually true, then you can start to

[00:16:30] shift your beliefs. But when you've only heard one side of the story, it can be hard to can be hard

[00:16:35] to believe something else. Yeah. And I think it also affects the way people see themselves. You know,

[00:16:40] so I interviewed a friend of mine, Daniel from childhood who'd gone to my Christian school with me,

[00:16:46] you know, and he talked about running across a book in his family library that was written by Tim

[00:16:53] LaHaye, who was, you know, a prominent evangelical writer, speaker, and it's painted this really dire

[00:16:58] picture of what it meant to be gay. And he was, you know, reading this at a time when he himself was

[00:17:03] just kind of slowly starting to understand himself and, you know, couldn't even really acknowledge

[00:17:07] it, but was sensing his sexuality. And he talked about just how painful it was to, to have to have

[00:17:15] those messages directed at him at a time when he was figuring out who he was. And it reminded me of,

[00:17:20] you know, I, I'm so grateful. I did a convert, I did an interview with my grandfather when he was,

[00:17:25] I think in his late eighties. And I asked him about his life and I asked him about like, you know,

[00:17:32] how did you, what was it like to come out at about 60 years old, you know, after having had a whole

[00:17:37] life and heterosexual marriage, children, all of it. And, you know, one of the things he talked about

[00:17:43] was as a younger person, as a young, young man, he said, I would see sort of portrayals of gay people

[00:17:50] in the media and there was, you know, they were sort of perverted and I'm paraphrasing here, but,

[00:17:54] you know, bad. And, and he said, it just didn't, you know, I knew something was different about me,

[00:17:58] but it didn't fit with what I had sensed about myself. And I think, you know, that can be,

[00:18:02] that was true then. And I think it's still true for some people today who are growing up in an

[00:18:06] environment where they're told that that is somehow deficient. And yet, you know, both my friend

[00:18:11] Daniel and my grandfather were aware of this about themselves from a very young age. You know,

[00:18:16] that over and over again. The other thing my grandpa said on a lighter note was that he said,

[00:18:21] if I had been straight, I probably wouldn't have become a neurosurgeon because he was a,

[00:18:26] he was a brain surgeon and he, you know, he said his youth, he was really just focused on school

[00:18:31] because he wasn't distracted by girls and being distracted by boys wasn't an option, you know,

[00:18:36] in the twenties and thirties and forties. Something that struck me in your book was this

[00:18:42] idea when you were a kid that you, you were supposed to feel this peace by having a relationship with

[00:18:48] Jesus. And you just didn't seem to feel this peace. And you wondered, is this the devil trying

[00:18:53] to lead me astray? And I, I felt that too, as a kid and almost like feeling guilty. Like I was

[00:19:01] feeling guilty for not feeling enough peace. And then I'm like, trying to, I'm like, okay,

[00:19:05] I should believe in Jesus and have this peace. And anyway, can you talk a little bit more about what

[00:19:09] that was like for you? It made me feel to use the word I used a minute ago. It made me feel deficient

[00:19:15] in a way. I had these feelings that I think again, with adult eyes, I can see everybody has fear,

[00:19:23] anxiety, insecurity, self-doubt, regret, uncertainty, all of those things that are just part of being

[00:19:31] human. And I would be told again and again, you know, take those to the Lord, pray through it.

[00:19:36] And I tried, you know, I really did. And I would read those Bible verses, as you mentioned about

[00:19:43] peace. And I, you know, I found that it was either were times that I felt comforted, but I felt like

[00:19:51] I continually struggled, you know, and then get into middle school and, you know, the things happen to

[00:19:57] your body and your brain that happened to middle schoolers. I mean, I'm a parent now, so I,

[00:20:00] I've watched it once and I'm watching it again. And, you know, you see, it's just like, it's a

[00:20:08] hard time. And I can tell my kiddos like, oh, you know, yeah, you don't feel good right now. You feel

[00:20:12] off, you feel angsty. Like that's so normal, you know, and not to diminish it, but it's, it's like,

[00:20:17] you're, there's nothing wrong with you. It's just like your body's doing stuff, your brain's doing

[00:20:21] stuff. But like, I didn't have anybody to tell me that in that way. I mean, I kind of knew it and I

[00:20:26] have to credit my parents and some of the things they told me that, you know, that I was told that

[00:20:30] adolescence is a tumultuous time and there's a lot of transition and all of that. So I knew that, but

[00:20:35] everything also had a spiritual undercurrent and a sense that if you couldn't ultimately resolve it

[00:20:40] through prayer, that maybe you were doing something wrong. Maybe your heart wasn't in the right place.

[00:20:45] Maybe you weren't submitted to God enough. And, you know, it's, it's really hard to,

[00:20:50] to have those layers of feelings about it. And so as much as I would have, you know, loved for

[00:20:57] prayer to solve everything, you know, it didn't. And I think for my parents, you know, they had this

[00:21:02] kind of like Jesus movement era conversion experience, you know, at a time in the seventies

[00:21:08] when there were like a lot of kids getting into youth groups and to kind of moving into an

[00:21:12] evangelical form of religion. And I think for them, you know, I can only hypothesize here because

[00:21:18] I haven't really asked them this directly, but I think for them, it was just a different,

[00:21:21] it was a different, I know it was a different journey. Clearly it was a different journey.

[00:21:25] And I think, you know, having this experience in the context of a bunch of peers who sort of

[00:21:28] chosen it and embraced it, it has to be a different experience than something that you're sort of

[00:21:34] fed from a very young age and told is, and, you know, not intentionally, but in many ways is

[00:21:40] supposed to sort of replace all of the challenges of growing up. And the same, I mean, I think the same

[00:21:44] thing about purity culture, right? Like, so this idea that, you know, these very rigid guidelines

[00:21:49] for sex, they're intended in many ways to protect young people from hurt, which is a wonderful goal

[00:21:55] and which is a real concern. Sex is a powerful thing. And, uh, you know, I, I think it's certainly

[00:22:01] teach my children. It's important to be very thoughtful about it. But, um, but the idea that

[00:22:06] like, there's a formula you can follow, uh, if you just sort of give it to Jesus and, you know,

[00:22:10] you can sort of set aside adolescent angst, you can set aside the pain of heartbreak. You can,

[00:22:14] you can go bypass all of that by just having this kind of specific religious commitment. And I,

[00:22:20] I didn't find that to be the case for me as much as I would have liked it to be.

[00:22:24] Yeah. It's weird because it kind of wants to like bypass all the like struggle through

[00:22:31] adolescence and angst and, you know, the heartbreak and the, just all the things that come with going

[00:22:37] through puberty and realizing you have these feelings, but you can't, there's not a shortcut

[00:22:41] through them. You just have to go through them. But it's also interesting because the church doesn't

[00:22:47] take shortcuts on other kinds of suffering and this kind of like persecution. I always think about

[00:22:55] it as like this almost obsession with persecution that the church has, and you don't talk about this

[00:22:58] in your book. So I don't know if this is something that you talk about it a little bit later on,

[00:23:02] I think in the chapter, it's one of the later chapters, but I think, and this is something

[00:23:07] that like Chris and Kobez Dumais and others who I cite have, have written about really well. So it's

[00:23:11] not my original idea, but I think it's a really important one that in many evangelical circles,

[00:23:16] there is this narrative about persecution and there's this, you know, and it links back to ideas

[00:23:21] in the new Testament and this idea that, you know, if you're suffering, it's because if people don't

[00:23:27] like you, if people persecute you in some way, it's because you're on the right path. At the same time,

[00:23:32] there's this idea that if you're, if you're succeeding, it's because of God's blessing.

[00:23:36] And so you kind of can't lose. And I think that, you know, that persecution narrative can sometimes

[00:23:44] inoculate or insulate people from listening to criticism or feedback, you know, it can,

[00:23:49] it can sort of reinforce this idea that, well, whatever I'm running up against is because God

[00:23:53] is favoring me. I'm following God. No one else gets it. And, you know, I mean, I wrote a Substack

[00:23:58] post one time about this that I think I headlined, like, you know, am I being persecuted for

[00:24:03] righteousness or am I just being a jerk? And, you know, you have to ask yourself that question

[00:24:08] because I mean, certainly people who stand up in history, right, stand up against evil, push back

[00:24:13] against narratives that are harmful. They do face persecution. Persecution is a real thing.

[00:24:18] But I think the danger lies in assuming that pushback or persecution is automatically a sign of

[00:24:26] being on the right path. I think we have to be discerning about these things.

[00:24:30] Can you talk a little bit about prosperity gospel? This is like the flip side of that is like when

[00:24:35] things are going well, it's because God is blessing you. Can you talk a little bit about that and what

[00:24:40] it was like for you when your grandmother died and you were praying for healing and it didn't happen

[00:24:46] and what that was like for you and your family? Yeah. You know, this was in the 80s. Both of my

[00:24:50] grandmothers died in pretty quick succession. And when I was young and my parents were really quite young,

[00:24:55] they were in their early 30s. And, you know, it's I think one of the real tragedies of my family is

[00:25:00] that we didn't have those relationships. And I think I've wondered if in some ways the pain from

[00:25:07] that, you know, intensified some of our, you know, religious experiences and tendencies. I don't know,

[00:25:12] but more to the point, prosperity gospel was a big deal. You know, televangelists were all over the TV

[00:25:18] in the 80s. And, you know, I remember my mom telling me that when her mom was sick,

[00:25:25] you know, there were people who thought she should pray more and, you know, just kind of her takeaway

[00:25:30] from the whole experience in which her mother, you know, was diagnosed with cancer and died very

[00:25:34] quickly was that sometimes it's just God's will that, you know, it's not God's will to heal someone.

[00:25:40] And, you know, for people who aren't religious would language that a different way would say,

[00:25:46] you know, that sometimes bad things happen, and we can't control everything. And, you know,

[00:25:49] however you look at it, I think that reality was kind of we kind of ran up against that reality.

[00:25:54] And so my parents were very skeptical of those doctrines, I think, in part because of that experience,

[00:26:01] and also in part because of, I think, some theological reading they'd done. So I'm really

[00:26:06] grateful for that. Because I think, in general, there were a lot of people who were, frankly, trying to

[00:26:13] bilk evangelicals, Christians, you know, well-meaning Christians out of their money and

[00:26:17] make promises that they couldn't keep. And I think we skirted a lot of that when it comes to,

[00:26:23] you know, specifically prosperity gospel and like the healing doctrines and all of that. But that was

[00:26:29] very much in the air at that time. And to some degree still, I think still is, and maybe even has

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[00:27:32] Can you talk a little bit about what led you to shift your beliefs? What started you to pull them

[00:27:37] apart a little bit? It was like a lot of people, not one thing. There were a number of things that

[00:27:43] didn't feel like they added up for me. I was very curious about all of this. It was really important

[00:27:48] to me to get it right. That was a mix of fear and I think just curiosity. And some of it was my

[00:27:55] relationship with my grandfather, my evolving understanding about what to think about him.

[00:28:00] Some of it was, you know, I write about some experiences I had. I was really in a very

[00:28:05] evangelical bubble most of my childhood, but some experiences I had outside of that bubble,

[00:28:10] meeting people with different faiths or even different versions of the Christian faith that

[00:28:15] kind of pushed me to, they didn't push me necessarily, but knowing them pushed me to

[00:28:21] reconsider some of the things I believed. And then, you know, getting to college, even going to an

[00:28:25] evangelical college and, you know, having some sort of offline conversations with professors and

[00:28:31] realizing that, you know, there were people who were teaching at evangelical colleges who had

[00:28:37] struggled with some of the same things I'd struggled with theologically, certainly when it comes to how to

[00:28:43] think about science and reason. And, you know, I, I think one of the things that really didn't sit

[00:28:50] well with me was kind of a growing recognition that there was just no legitimate scientific basis for

[00:28:57] young earth creationism. And that, you know, not only was the overwhelming consensus of scientists who

[00:29:03] studied these things, that evolution was, you know, sort of the bedrock of biology and understanding it.

[00:29:10] And also that, you know, there were plenty of people with various forms of a Christian faith who

[00:29:17] accepted evolutionary science and that, you know, we'd kind of been warned that it, well, if you

[00:29:23] abandon a literal view of Genesis, then you abandon a lot of things. And in some ways it was true

[00:29:27] because, you know, if you, I don't think you have to abandon everything, but I do think it forces sort of a

[00:29:32] re-imagining of what those stories mean and how to look at scripture. And, you know, I went to Oxford for a

[00:29:38] semester and I was in college and I was exposed to British evangelicalism, which was different in some

[00:29:45] ways and similar in others, at least the, the little piece I was exposed to. I, you know, I was just kind

[00:29:50] of taking a lot of data in and looking for it too, you know, reading about church history. And one of the

[00:29:56] courses I studied at Oxford was a, was a church history course. And I, cause I just wanted to

[00:30:00] understand where this had all come from. Like, where'd the Bible come from? Where did our theology around

[00:30:04] the Bible come from? I knew, you know, there was a narrow range, like I mentioned at the

[00:30:08] beginning of theological difference within my community and communities, but we defined sort

[00:30:14] of the, there was sort of like a larger container around that, that like, this is orthodoxy, you know,

[00:30:19] with a small O and anything outside of that is not. And so it's sort of like, well, how did those lines

[00:30:24] get drawn? Who decides? I had lots of questions like that. And all of that put together, you know,

[00:30:28] a combination of sort of intellectual searching and emotional searching, I guess, kind of produced,

[00:30:36] you know, just, uh, I'm not an anti-religion person. I'm, you know, I still go to church.

[00:30:42] I go to synagogue with my husband who's Jewish, but I, I think I've landed at a much sort of

[00:30:47] looser place, you know, and, and as I'm sure you are well aware with the work that you do,

[00:30:52] people land in all kinds of places, you know, some people land in, that I've talked to land in

[00:30:56] mainline Protestantism, some people land in nothing, some people land in atheism. And, you know,

[00:31:01] my book is certainly not intended to tell anybody where they should land because I can't tell you

[00:31:06] that. And I feel like I'm still on a journey myself, but what I have, what I think the biggest

[00:31:11] change for me has been, I'm not willing to draw lines or exclude or reject people on the basis of

[00:31:17] things I've simply was told as a young child that I don't, that, that don't resonate with me.

[00:31:24] I'm remembering this conversation that you had with a friend of yours who was Muslim and they asked you,

[00:31:29] do you believe I'm going to hell? And you felt really stuck in that moment of, of what to do

[00:31:36] and how to answer them and what you believed. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[00:31:41] Right. This was when I was in Washington DC for a semester in high school as a Senate page,

[00:31:47] which is, you know, it's funny to me because I was so sheltered and protected. I had so many rules about

[00:31:52] like dating and what movies I could watch and what music I could listen to. And then my parents like,

[00:31:58] let me go live in DC for a semester at like 16, 17, which I really appreciate that they did.

[00:32:03] It was, you know, it was a chaperone situation, but the reality is I had so much freedom that I

[00:32:09] never exercised because I was the, I was, you know, I was too scared. I didn't want to sin.

[00:32:14] I didn't want to upset my parents. You know, I was, I was that kind of kid.

[00:32:18] We are experts in self-policing. Yeah.

[00:32:20] The good girls from evangelicalism.

[00:32:22] We are right. Like you draw a little line and a little chalk line around me and I'll stay inside

[00:32:27] of it for a while at least. But yeah, one of my classmates was, um, was Muslim. He was, uh,

[00:32:34] the child of Iranian immigrants who had fled the regime there. And so, you know, we, we got to be

[00:32:40] friends and we got to talking one day about our backgrounds and our, in our faith backgrounds and

[00:32:46] in particular. And, and he asked me that question and it was just kind of like,

[00:32:50] oh, you know, what do I say here? Like, I, I really had a hard time. I felt like I, you know,

[00:32:57] I knew what the church would say, but it didn't feel right to me. And I think I just told him,

[00:33:02] you know, that that was between him and God, but it's, it's one of those moments that has stayed

[00:33:06] with me because it, you know, when you look at another human being in the face and say,

[00:33:10] what do we really think about you? You know, that for me was a really important moment. And it kind

[00:33:17] of forced me to reflect on, on just the things I couldn't, I didn't feel like I could confidently

[00:33:25] agree with and certainly not promote. Well, again, we learn about these things in a,

[00:33:31] in a bubble and we learn about atheists or people of different religions as kind of being led astray.

[00:33:38] And you don't know anybody like that. So you just kind of assume that that's true. And then you meet

[00:33:43] someone and it's like, wait, they're just like me. Yeah. And it's, you know, you're also taught,

[00:33:49] I mean, one of the many good things we were taught was humility. And I think if I was honest, I had to

[00:33:56] have a certain amount of humility and say, I don't know this to be true, you know? And I,

[00:34:02] and I should hope that it's not. Yeah. Okay. An analogy that I loved that you

[00:34:08] used was how a fish is living in water and they don't even recognize the water around them because

[00:34:14] that's just what they're living in. And this is kind of what it feels like growing up in

[00:34:18] evangelicalism. And you just don't even realize that that's the world that you're in. Like you

[00:34:23] said, you wouldn't have used that label when you were growing up. And I wouldn't have either until I

[00:34:28] really was in college or out of college and realized, oh, I think, I think that's what I grew up in.

[00:34:33] When did you start to realize like the water that you were in and what it, what it was and that it

[00:34:38] was kind of a bubble? Again, it was gradual. I mean, I, obviously I knew that there was an outside

[00:34:43] world and that there were people who went to public school and, you know, occasionally I would meet

[00:34:48] them, but I was, I was taught that most of the world was lost. And, you know, when I think about that

[00:34:54] and I think about, you know, there was sort of like a heaviness that hung over my world sometimes,

[00:34:59] you know, I still sometimes have these moments like where I'll be in big public places. And I

[00:35:05] just remember what it was like to, to think that everybody around me might be lost. And like,

[00:35:09] should I talk to them? Should I try to witness to them? You know, and there were a couple of times

[00:35:13] in the book that I talk about when I did and it, it didn't go well, or it felt really stilted. It felt

[00:35:18] uncomfortable. It felt rude, frankly. And so I don't know. I think, I think those experiences

[00:35:26] also kind of helped me see that some of this, well, that this soup I was swimming in, this water

[00:35:32] I was swimming in, to use that analogy again, that there was something bigger than it. And I,

[00:35:37] it was scary to look outside of it, but I also felt like I kind of had to, because I knew that there

[00:35:41] was this world out there. And, you know, I believed that God had made the world and God loved the world.

[00:35:46] And how was I supposed to reconcile that with this idea that only we had it right?

[00:35:51] Mm-hmm. Can we switch gears a little bit to talk about your coverage of the 2016 election and what

[00:35:59] that was like for you? I think, well, in your book, you do a great job of talking about the connection

[00:36:06] between evangelicalism and support of Donald Trump. And we who grew up in this, we felt that

[00:36:13] connection, of course. But to hear your reporting on it was really helpful. To hear you talk about it in

[00:36:19] your book was really helpful just to kind of name, name it for what it is. So I guess first, what was

[00:36:25] it, what did it feel like for you to report on this and to kind of be someone who's talking about the

[00:36:30] evangelical support of Trump as someone who grew up in it?

[00:36:33] So, you know, in retrospect, I probably got into covering politics in part because of how I was raised,

[00:36:39] but it was not a straight line in any way. I mean, I, I think my parents, I know they would have loved

[00:36:44] for me to have gone into politics and be an advocate. I kind of came out of both my Senate

[00:36:49] experience and then a couple of others doing internships for political actors as a, you know,

[00:36:54] young person feeling like that wasn't what I wanted to do with my life. It felt, again, I was

[00:36:59] starting to feel uncomfortable with kind of this pressure to have all the answers and enforce them

[00:37:04] on everybody else because I didn't feel like I did. And I felt like I had a lot of questions more than

[00:37:10] answers. And so that was kind of partly what led me to being a journalist. And, you know, from there,

[00:37:17] I wound up covering a variety of different things. I've spent some time, you know, covering agriculture

[00:37:23] in Nebraska and, you know, covering the Chicago suburbs and things like that. But I always had

[00:37:29] this interest in politics because it had kind of been for my family, you know, a big part of our,

[00:37:34] of our life. My parents were, you know, kind of typical conservative evangelicals. They saw

[00:37:40] being a Christian as very deeply tied to a certain sort of political project. And so that was,

[00:37:45] that was kind of what I was thinking and hearing about a lot growing up in addition to theology.

[00:37:50] But I, I wanted to just explore the questions. And so I, you know, again, kind of probably naturally

[00:37:56] gravitated toward political stories to some extent. And I wound up in 2012 in Iowa, covering the Iowa

[00:38:04] caucuses for Iowa Public Radio, and also doing a lot of freelancing for NPR, for the National Network.

[00:38:10] And from there, I was recruited to cover the next election cycle, the 2016 cycle. But, you know,

[00:38:16] having said all of that, I never envisioned getting this close to this specific story. I moved,

[00:38:24] you know, part-time to DC in the summer of 2015. I was told I was going to be covering the Republican

[00:38:29] primary. As you probably remember, it was a huge primary with tons of candidates. Trump was pretty

[00:38:35] consistently near or at the top of the pack, but nobody was taking him seriously at that time.

[00:38:41] And a lot of the stories, especially as candidates dropped out and Trump continued to sort of

[00:38:47] boy to the top, a lot of the stories were about the evangelical base of the Republican Party. And,

[00:38:53] you know, would they accept someone like Trump? Would they back him? And I was wondering the same

[00:38:58] thing. You know, I was thinking about all of that history that I had from my personal life growing up.

[00:39:03] And I was, you know, remembering a lot of things, including how the evangelical community had

[00:39:08] responded to Bill Clinton's moral failings. And, you know, I guess part of me probably thought that

[00:39:15] they would not back Trump. But over time, it became really clear that that was not correct. And

[00:39:21] especially as it became clear he was going to be the nominee, evangelicals really coalesced behind him.

[00:39:26] And I think over time, many became enthusiastic about him. You know, they saw him as someone who could

[00:39:30] really deliver on their goals in a way that other Republican candidates had not been able to.

[00:39:36] And so I, like so many, like every other, you know, political reporter covering that primary and then

[00:39:41] that campaign was doing these stories. But I had a really personal sort of insight into it and a whole,

[00:39:48] you know, history with it that made it fascinating in a lot of ways. I think I kind of knew what questions

[00:39:55] to ask of voters. I kind of had a sense of like what was motivating them and how we got there.

[00:40:01] But I, like everybody else, was, you know, kind of kept wondering if there would be a moment that would

[00:40:05] be sort of too much for the evangelical movement. But so far there hasn't seemed to be, at least not

[00:40:11] in mass.

[00:40:11] Mm-hmm. It's always surprising to me when I remember how Christians and evangelicals, I guess I'll use,

[00:40:20] responded to Bill Clinton and all of that with Monica Lewinsky and everything. And then how they

[00:40:27] responded to Trump. And I mean, you guys were questioning, like, can we quote him on, in the

[00:40:33] news? Like, can we use the word pussy in our reportings? And I think you had talked about,

[00:40:39] and I know other people have talked about too, how Franklin Graham is, you know, says nobody's

[00:40:43] perfect and, you know, he can change and there can be change. And it's so interesting how the church,

[00:40:50] at least in my experience, can look at Bill Clinton and when it works for them, they can say,

[00:40:55] like, this is bad. We can't follow him because he's done this. But when they want to follow somebody,

[00:41:01] they can say, you know, maybe he's here for change. God has put him here for change. And he was

[00:41:06] almost this, like, Trump was almost this, like, savior for them, even though he doesn't check off

[00:41:13] a lot of their boxes. That's always been interesting to me. I don't know if you, I don't really have a

[00:41:18] question in that, but I don't know if you have more to say about that.

[00:41:21] Well, it kind of reminds me of what we were just talking about with persecution. But, you know,

[00:41:26] and I think this is the challenge of, like, biblical interpretation and religious interpretation is

[00:41:31] that there's a tendency to sort of see what you want to see and read things the way you want to read them.

[00:41:38] So, yeah, I mean, I think for people who align with Trump on policy and maybe also just feel like,

[00:41:46] you know, evangelicals don't have the cultural power that we once had, don't have the demographic

[00:41:52] power that they once had, and feel like something's slipping away. You know, somebody like Trump

[00:41:57] who sort of stands up and fights. I mean, that has an appeal for certain people. And so I think,

[00:42:02] you know, and I think everyone does this. Everyone is sort of susceptible to seeing what you want to

[00:42:08] see. And to be fair, he did deliver on, like, in his presidency, we did overturn Roe, which

[00:42:17] evangelicals were very excited about. And, you know, me as a kid, when I was an evangelical,

[00:42:22] that was kind of the, that was the goal in voting. So they did, they did that.

[00:42:28] Yeah. I mean, he, he did what he said he would do to a large degree when it comes to delivering on

[00:42:33] the things that evangelicals wanted. I mean, it's not, it's not arbitrary. And, and, you know,

[00:42:38] I think so many people told me that they, you know, in 2016, and even now, to an extent, like,

[00:42:43] it's a binary choice. It's between two people who, one of whom aligns with my policy goals and one

[00:42:48] of whom doesn't. So I'm going to vote for the person who, who, who aligns, you know, and,

[00:42:52] and I think for a lot of evangelicals, that's what it comes down to, you know, not everyone. I mean,

[00:42:56] there's still about 20% of the evangelical, white evangelical population that says no, and,

[00:43:00] and votes for Democrats. And, and we'll see what happens this year. And I think, you know,

[00:43:04] I'll be curious to see whether, you know, it's, it's not just about policy anymore. It's also about

[00:43:10] arguably democracy. And, and, you know, we're talking about someone who, you know,

[00:43:14] tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Does that, does that hold any weight

[00:43:18] for some of these voters? In my reporting, a lot of Trump supporters are skeptical of,

[00:43:25] of those facts, are skeptical of the court system. And, and so, you know, I'm not sure how much it

[00:43:32] penetrates, but, you know, it is a little bit different this time than it was in, in 2016,

[00:43:36] or certainly 2020.

[00:43:39] What feels different to you now than in 2016?

[00:43:45] Well, I mean, we, we know what a Trump presidency looks like. We didn't in 2016.

[00:43:51] And I think that kind of probably cuts both ways. Like I just described when it comes to the

[00:43:55] evangelical vote, I mean, there may, there may be those who are concerned about, I mean,

[00:43:59] I've certainly met, you know, individual, maybe not evangelicals, most Republicans generally,

[00:44:05] perhaps some of whom were evangelicals. I'm trying to think specifically, but I've certainly met

[00:44:07] Republicans who have moved away from Trump because of January 6th.

[00:44:11] Mm-hmm.

[00:44:11] But for a lot of people still, you know, partisan identity, skepticism of the press,

[00:44:18] you know, those things sort of weigh out, you know, outweigh any of that. And again,

[00:44:22] as we were just saying, you know, Trump did accomplish a lot of the things that evangelicals

[00:44:26] wanted. And I think they see him as someone who would do so again. So, you know, in that way,

[00:44:31] it's different. But when it comes to the evangelical vote, again, there are things that I think cut both

[00:44:36] directions. Mm-hmm. There's a moment that I'm sure we all remember when Kellyanne Conway

[00:44:42] said, you know, she was giving, or the White House was giving alternative facts. And you had

[00:44:47] talked about how this felt so familiar to you. What felt familiar about these alternative facts?

[00:44:53] Yeah, this was, Kellyanne Conway was an advisor to the president. And this was right after the

[00:44:58] inauguration when there was the well-documented debate about the crowd size in which Trump, you know,

[00:45:03] exaggerated the size of the crowd at his inauguration in 2017. And, you know, Kellyanne Conway was asked

[00:45:10] about it. And I believe it was by Jake Tapper. It was in the book, whoever it was. But she was asked

[00:45:16] about it in a TV interview. And she said, look, you know, we have our own, we have alternative facts.

[00:45:22] And that line, I think, has just resonated and sort of ricocheted. People think about it a lot,

[00:45:28] talk about it a lot, because it really sort of encapsulated this idea that we're not all

[00:45:33] operating in the same fact universe anymore. And there's such a skepticism of authority and

[00:45:38] institutions and the press. And it reminded me of, in many ways, of the universe I grew up in, where,

[00:45:45] you know, the consensus of scientists was really didn't carry as much weight as sort of the word of

[00:45:52] a pastor or a religious leader, where we had a sort of parallel infrastructure of academic

[00:45:58] institutions and media, books, you know, broadcast media, and so forth. And, you know, it's in a way,

[00:46:05] I think, in a way, it's frustrating, because it's sort of like, there's so much information to sift

[00:46:10] through. And now, existing in a world where there's so much online information, I think it's very

[00:46:15] challenging for a lot of people to figure out what's what. I mean, it's my full time job. And I have to be

[00:46:22] careful about, you know, what am I retweeting? What am I citing? You know, we have to be very careful

[00:46:27] about, like, who says this is true. And I think it's just, you know, in many ways, the world has

[00:46:33] gotten even more complex than it was back then when I was growing up.

[00:46:38] You had talked about how the church and pastors and church leaders teach you to be afraid of the

[00:46:46] other information out there. So like being skeptical of what scientists say, because if you

[00:46:51] believe them, then we'll believe in evolution instead of young earth creationists and being

[00:46:56] skeptical of the medical profession, being skeptical of the media. And so it kind of, it all adds up to

[00:47:04] this moment, I feel like, where they've taught people to be skeptical of the media, so they can

[00:47:09] give alternative facts. And people who grew up in evangelicalism are kind of primed to believe that.

[00:47:16] Yeah, I mean, there's been some research on this, which I cite in the book, that suggests that,

[00:47:20] you know, white evangelicals appeared in some research to have a greater uptake of misinformation

[00:47:25] about things like COVID than others. And I mean, I think there's a real danger there that,

[00:47:33] I mean, and I think this is, again, not just a danger for evangelicals, but particularly in

[00:47:38] this moment where there is such an overwhelming amount of data, I guess you could say, and information,

[00:47:45] you know, crossing our phones every day. You know, this idea of like information hygiene is really

[00:47:50] important. And I'm not quite sure what we do about it, but I know I try to teach my kids, like when

[00:47:55] they make a claim, well, where did that come from? Who told you that? How do you know that? Because

[00:48:01] there's a lot of, there's just so much swirling out there that it's just not true.

[00:48:06] Mm-hmm. Yeah. I like to, and I know we kind of shifted into political things, but I'm going to

[00:48:12] shift us back to deconstruction just for our last question. I like to end with what kind of

[00:48:17] encouragement you could offer the deconstructing community? And yeah, so what kind of encouragement

[00:48:23] would you offer the deconstructing person at the moment? I think the biggest thing, and one of the

[00:48:28] reasons I wrote the Exvangelicals is just the sense that they're not alone. I mean, those of us who grow up,

[00:48:35] you know, in this world, approximately in the last, you know, 30, 40 years or more had a shared

[00:48:42] experience. And it's one that I think a lot of people are talking about now and finding community

[00:48:47] around on podcasts like yours and on social media. And so I think that is encouraging. It's not as

[00:48:55] isolating as it used to be. If you, you know, left a church, you know, there, there are other people

[00:49:01] who've had the same experience. And I think it's, for me, it's been just a, I see myself as always

[00:49:08] kind of hopefully growing, learning, you know, it's, I didn't coin the word deconstruction or

[00:49:13] exvangelical. I think they both are useful in certain ways, but I think there's also a lot of power in,

[00:49:18] in not only focusing on where we came from and what we've rejected, but on who we're becoming and

[00:49:24] who we want to be seeing it as, you know, not just dismantling or destroying, but also growing,

[00:49:30] creating. I try to look at it in that way anyway. And if listeners want to find you, read more of

[00:49:37] your work, where is the best place to keep up with all the things you're doing?

[00:49:42] I'm on Instagram, Sarah McCammon underscore journalist. I'm also on Substack. I have a

[00:49:47] free Substack. I take paid subscribers, but I don't require it called Off the Air,

[00:49:52] a journalist after hours thoughts. And it's a mix of kind of behind the scenes of my reporter life,

[00:49:57] a little bit of my mom life and you know, whatever else is on my mind. So those are both good places to

[00:50:03] find me. Awesome. And I'll link them in the show notes so people can connect with you easily.

[00:50:08] So thank you so much for being here, Sarah. This was such a nice conversation. I really appreciate it.

[00:50:13] Yeah. Thanks so much, Maggie.

[00:50:14] Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists. If you enjoyed this episode

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[00:50:35] clicking the link in the show notes or heading to dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top

[00:50:40] banner. As always, you can find me over on Instagram at hello underscore deconstructionists,

[00:50:46] where together we are building community after evangelicalism one story at a time.

[00:50:51] Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast.

[00:50:55] And when this sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your head,

[00:50:58] I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you.

[00:51:02] Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us.

[00:51:06] And of course, to you for listening. See you next time.