28: Charismatic Christianity 101 with Jayne Sugg

[00:00:00] Hey there Deconstors, there's a couple spots in this episode where my audio got a little crackling in the recording. It's still a great episode with wonderful content and absolutely worth the listen, and most importantly it shouldn't affect your ability to understand the content.

[00:00:12] But I did want to give you that heads up in case you notice some audio differences from our usual episodes. Alright, enjoy this episode with Jayne Sugg!

[00:00:46] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast, where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:01:09] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most of all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved and you are worthy just as you are. Hello Deconstructionists!

[00:01:24] My guest today is Jane Sugg, who uses sheher pronouns. Jane is a fourth grade teacher by day and a recording artist by night.

[00:01:31] She is part of the good shepherd, music collective, a group of musicians based out of New York City who write and record songs about God, peace and acceptance.

[00:01:40] So as we were just talking about, we both have a lot of overlaps in our experiences teaching music, extra and delical. So I'm so excited to hear more about your story, it's exciting that we have a lot in common and we'll just be like two friends gathering.

[00:01:56] Two new friends. Absolutely, two new friends. Thank you for having me, I'm really grateful. Yeah, absolutely. So can you start with a little background about your church experience, how did you grow up, what kind of church were you in, what was it like for you?

[00:02:10] Yeah, definitely. I grew up in a non-denominational, even jellicle, charismatic church.

[00:02:19] I was lucky, so lucky because I saw women in leadership. So that was like the one thing I'm so grateful for lots of things, especially once you start to reconstruct, but I mean a lot of people were like, whoa, like you guys spoken tongues and like did the prophetic thing and you danced with flags.

[00:02:40] Did women speak a church I bet you had to wear certain types of skirts and weirdly that was like a nice crossover women led they would preach.

[00:02:50] They would sing and like we'd worship my family were all in the worship team, we were like, make a church adjacent so we were like 1,000 people but we weren't like okay, explosive and Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[00:03:04] And so it was like aunts and uncles, my parents briefly were on the worship team cousins I have a very big family my sister she's now worship pastor in Oregon.

[00:03:15] Okay, my mother was a worship pastor for a brief period of time. So it was like it ran in the family and I think our church was more known for the music than for like the theology and we had like a really beautiful like my pop presence briefly as when I was a kid like

[00:03:33] lots of like beautiful like black gospel music and like Latino music like whistles and the choir and like those special instruments.

[00:03:41] So there was like a brief like growing up a brief period like an elementary school when I was like so proud and so passionate about music and my faith and women were bad asses so that was cool.

[00:03:55] But of course you know every coin has the alternate side and so I'm sure that you hear stories connected to like corruption and leadership or pain or tragedy and then we started to be construct.

[00:04:09] But my space was cool because it was like really music eccentric and so there wasn't outlet for me when that got hairy as they do.

[00:04:18] Yeah, and I think that's a cool thing about a lot of okay well I guess I can't speak for charismatic churches in general but I think like the super superpennecostal side is like no like strict assemblies of God is like no women right.

[00:04:32] I think so no women in leadership but these sort of non-denominational charismatic spaces in my experience also tend to be like accepting of women in leadership because it's more about like what is God calling you to do and so there have been women in leadership and women who have.

[00:04:50] You know consider themselves to be prophets and have the gift of prophecy and it's not something that I believe in but but like that is one positive piece of these non-denominational charismatic churches is that like they seem to be accepting of women having the same role as men.

[00:05:06] Yeah, except girl you got to look out for the jessible spirit. I hope you don't have it. I think that is then here in deep trouble. I heard you have a little told you had the jessible spirit. No way thank God no way.

[00:05:21] I was definitely told that I was getting like I was growl I'm a tall person and I definitely was told like by the other women in my life no man told me this thing God but like you probably can't wear short skirts anymore on stage and choir because you very tall.

[00:05:35] Jessible as I got and then wow okay I know also totally inappropriate but to your point I do appreciate the sensitivity that carries my experiences have towards like the rule of it all.

[00:05:48] Is it usher's in a new kind of respect it's less about like rules and what are we feeling. I'm feeling like women should be leading and that's cool.

[00:05:58] I've actually kept like I always tease my friends now who come from back to his background and my faith community at the shepherd. I'm the most woo woo. Okay hands down.

[00:06:07] Yeah because it really is like accepting of the woo woo this like spiritual speaking and tongues prophecy like what do you feel like go with it? You know yeah like where the spirit leads it's literally what they're doing.

[00:06:21] It's also like you know in some ways it can be so freeing because like women can be in leadership because that's you know what people feel but in other ways it can be so abusive and manipulative because people can just say this is what the spirit told me.

[00:06:37] So you can't question it and that is what it is. So just you know just like to put that in there too that like there are good things about it and they're really dangerous things about it. Yes absolutely.

[00:06:48] Yeah I was just gonna say it's this really dumb story that I've told too many times and my therapist was like that's very interesting about you and she is not religious at all. But she's working with me through my religious trauma.

[00:07:00] I had a person like a person in need, a homeless person come up to me like a couple summers ago you know I'm in New York City.

[00:07:07] I'm in Lower Manhattan and she was asking for money and I said I don't have any and then she interrupted me and started laughing but like we were really deep voice.

[00:07:15] But I come from a charismatic like prophetic like I've seen like demons come out of people you know like growing up. Yeah and she then she like pulled back and she's like I'm sorry there's another man who lives inside of me and he just thinks you're really funny.

[00:07:29] And my knee jerk Maggie was to be like to close all holes in my face so that the man in her didn't come out and me like that's how ridiculous my brain is still sometimes to say.

[00:07:42] These are habits that we like can't get rid of my girlfriend with me was like that was weird and I was like didn't get in you.

[00:07:48] And I said it hurt and again my therapist was like that's not really how these things work but I can see that like it's coming from this literal interpretation of scripture right like out of the man and the legion goes into the pegs and then the pegs run off the clip you know these like Christianisms and so the woo has stuck.

[00:08:09] It doesn't mean that I wonder wander around really afraid but if you tell me how's has goes or if you tell me you're feeling something in your gut, I'm always like.

[00:08:18] The demon part of so like okay the church I grew up in was very like non charismatic or like Baptist light I like to say.

[00:08:27] But but I ended up going to quite a few charismatic churches or just like found myself in more charismatic spaces in high school college and why was I telling you this. The demon part oh the demon part.

[00:08:41] They're so obsessed with demons like the demon it's like scary like I think if I grew up with that more I would have like such a fear of demons and like I'm just sort of like. I don't believe in it to like it's fine that's kind of weird.

[00:08:55] But I think if I grew up in more of those spaces like I think it's really scary they like really teach you to like be afraid that they're going to get in.

[00:09:05] Yeah, I mean 100% yes, I I think another thing to note like for my upbringing is I did have like an anxiety disorder as a child and my parents.

[00:09:17] I'm getting from a good home with good parents, but they were divorced from like the time I was three onward which interestingly took my mom out of her worship leader position because she was leaving my dad.

[00:09:28] They asked her like to step down but I was like two I mean I don't remember any of this but flash forward to when I'm 17 on the same stage at the same church people are coming up to me saying you look like your mother you sound like your mother.

[00:09:41] When my mom like will not go near that the ground's about church because it was so fertile to her that yeah it's like a whole saga we could write about it.

[00:09:50] But with that anxiety disorder I had the communication to me and as my parents did their best they understood it as like it doubles attacking you.

[00:10:00] And so a really great way to like combat that because we were charismatic was like we will memorize scripture and we will sing songs and worship will be our weapon.

[00:10:11] They went to like the children's Bible counselor who's still my hero this really strong black woman named pastor Shirley who I still send letters to sometimes she would talk with me about being strong in the Lord.

[00:10:23] So yeah we are a fearful people but then there's also this really interesting side of like spiritual warfare and like the name of Jesus and a really interesting cultural piece to our church as well.

[00:10:36] And because it was signs and wonders and you're seeing them it reinforces more that like what you're doing is real and that God is responsive to your behavior.

[00:10:46] So keep behaving this way and then come you know unhealthy compulsions or habits so we shouldn't be making all the way into high school and then you know I was an intern and it was church camp and it was getting slain in the spirit falling down and getting up and.

[00:11:03] I was perceiving the gift of tongue and prophecy and like then I was working there by the time I was in my 20s I was the associate worship pastor there with my family okay my uncle was the worship pastor.

[00:11:14] And and then I saw how the sausage was made and there was a really terrible tragic death in my family my aunt who was a worship pastor got very sick and we tried to pray for healing. And it didn't happen.

[00:11:31] That's when the deconstruction started but it was like 25 years of devotion 100% charismatic devotion and the we have stayed I'm I still believe 100% I identify as a Christian still but like a pretty bad one. Like generally good one. Yeah, that's true.

[00:11:53] I mean most of my friends haven't stayed in the face and if I didn't have an open community that was affirming that was like intergenomination all the church or call.

[00:12:03] I really just like the tradition now because it holds me to something that's old and true that I believe to be like ancient and real.

[00:12:12] But yeah, I mean my background like I didn't even know what lent was and I know what admin was like I don't know but I knew what prophecy was and I knew that if you spoke in tongues and church you had to wait as long as it would take for an interpretation.

[00:12:25] According to the Pauline gospel right like we had a weight okay so you were like you had to not a personal prayer language kind of kind of speaking in tongues but like someone had to be there to interpret both.

[00:12:38] So it would be like wow we're feeling this very good let's all pray in tongues okay but then it would come to like this gentle home and then one person would speak out in tongues okay and then it would be like.

[00:12:51] I just wait and then our pastor would be like can someone interpret that and then someone I had a joke with a friend of mine from our church he grew up in the same type space.

[00:13:01] Someone would come up and just like give like literally a word of encouragement it wasn't even like prophecy was like Lord loves you and. You are protected under the shelter of his wings but it wasn't like you know tomorrow at 10 a.m everybody needs to.

[00:13:16] It wasn't like prophecy. It was a saying and nice thing. Which like, I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. Like that's such a beautiful thing. Like, hey, you are loved. You know? Yeah. But also, like this guy just spoke gibberish for 20 seconds.

[00:13:29] And I'm going to exactly what that means. Yeah. I mean, it is pretty much something to do with the kind of wild. It's wild. Yeah. Speaking in tongues and prophecies, slain in the spirit has come up on another episode and a friend of mine was like, okay,

[00:13:44] who's not Christian wasn't raised Christian, just like listens to the podcast because she finds it interesting. She was like, what is this? What is sleeping in the spirit? So can you give a little background about like, just like what's speaking in tongues, prophecy and slain in the spirit

[00:14:00] is such a very charismatic Christian terms. And you will know them better than I will. So could you give a little background about those? I would be honored. I think this knowledge has been sitting on the shelf for far too long. Again, to mention my therapist,

[00:14:13] she's Jewish and she loves to hear about this stuff because it's just very unusual and very niche. Mm-hmm. All right, slain in the spirit. I believe as teachers, the words slain comes from the word slay, which we just like to think of Beyonce and Ripple, however.

[00:14:33] I think that the slain piece is kind of laid out like something over took me and brought me to the floor. I could not stand up. So we see this on those really rough, like TVN gospel shows.

[00:14:47] And I think for that, like did a whole spin on it, like making fun of it in like the early 2000s, a minister lays their hand on your head. And you're being prayed for and you were overtaken by a supernatural presence in you fall down.

[00:15:02] Some people say you fall out and this is a really weird cultural thing. If you're a woman and you are in a skirt and you fall down, someone comes by with these blankets and they lay them over your legs so that you are decent. Whatever, decent.

[00:15:18] Thank you for that. So you don't become a Jezebel just by laying there. Yeah. They help you with that. They help you not become a Jezebel. You're slain in the spirit, but not the Jezebel spirit. Yeah. And so some people like my sister and I grew up

[00:15:35] in the same setting, right? And she told me, she's like, I swear to God, that guy pushed me. He pushed me down. But again, here's Roo Jane. I was like, no way. I really felt like it couldn't stand up.

[00:15:45] And so to this day, these things remain a mystery and in a more serious light, the only pastor I've really considered having now is Richard Bore. I'm a huge fan of his books and he often gives a little nod to the charismatic, expressive Christianity

[00:16:02] by just saying like, who can know? If you don't think there are angels anywhere, you'll never see any. You think there everywhere, maybe you're better or worse for it? I've been comforted by that. I don't know what happened to me when I was a kid,

[00:16:13] but I had been slain in the spirit. It's usually like, go down for prayer everyone and then as a pastor touches people, certain people fall down. Most people will tell you, no, I was pushed. I was not one of those people.

[00:16:28] It just kind of felt like some wind or something. A mighty wind. Okay. Let's see what was the second thing? Slain in this spirit, prophecy. Can speaking in tongues. Prophecy and speaking in tongues? Well, okay, speaking in tongues comes from Acts the panacos, right after the gospels

[00:16:50] and all these people are gathering in the name of Jesus and then they all start speaking in different languages. So some people, I'm gonna get so weird with you Maggie, just stop me with your hands if you're like, no one wants to do this.

[00:17:02] No, I'm having all of this. Some people would come to our church, like circuit preacher, like some kind of evangelist type person. Like I remember this one lady, I remember her name. I'll just call her name was Lynn

[00:17:17] and I know we're last name but I don't know what happened to her, but I don't wanna bring that up. She would come and she would speak about prophecy and tongues and she said that she was at a service once where someone spoke in tongues

[00:17:33] and it was like in another language that someone else spoke in the congregation. So let's just say Spanish, like someone was speaking out like in tongues and it was Spanish and then they were able to fully interpret like what that person said. So that's how some people interpret

[00:17:52] like that moment and act, like oh, it wasn't a prayer language, it's gibberish. It was another language that someone could interpret which is like far more interesting than the previous supernatural to most people. There's this whole other side that's much more common

[00:18:07] which is like I'm gonna pray over you and you're gonna receive the language of the Holy Spirit which sounds like this just start to utter from your mouth and you'll just start to speak gibberish, you know? And it's basically what I was taught

[00:18:25] is like as you pray, you're praying prayers that you don't know how to pray. So if you're really deeply overcome with grief, maybe you would just speak in tongues instead because the Holy Spirit will speak for you which I mean we could see in scripture,

[00:18:42] you know in Romans I know that like Paul says like when you don't know what to pray the Holy Spirit will pray for you. Baba-bap. Prophecy comes in when you try to give that gibberish language aloud to everyone according to Paul's got Paul's letters, not as gospel's

[00:18:58] and nobody really like Paul. I thought that gave me. Oh, but it like Paul. I really liked him and I'm very embarrassed by it and I feel like he needs to own up you and that. You were baptized as light. I was baptized as light, yeah. Yes, yeah.

[00:19:12] All my baptized as girls love, all love. The power of Christal, the charismatic girls were like James, we like James and John. We like like the naughty boys, you know? Like a really weird. Almost such a martyr. He's like yeah, it's so hard to be Christian.

[00:19:31] Nobody loves me and I was like, well, feel, I feel that. I had a very nice childhood. So I don't know what suffering I was like quitting to Paul's suffering but you were preparing through preparing for the persecution. Yeah, but I mean like Paul's also so

[00:19:48] who will oriented right? He brought the rules all the church is that he planted and so the idea was you can't just be screaming out and sometimes guys you have to have an interpreter and so we took that very literally and when someone would feel,

[00:20:03] to answer your friends' question, why would you even start speaking in tongues? You feel, like imagine you're at this concert and you tingle these all over and you are moved emotionally. You might start to like, it's time for me to speak in tongues.

[00:20:17] It's just like a cultural thing that you do. Be it supernatural or not. I'm not the judge of that. And then if you do it loud for all to hear and you're taking over by the Holy Spirit, someone has got to tell everyone what you said.

[00:20:31] Which could be considered prophecy. Prophecy is literally predicting a future which also weirdly we were so condemning of like witches and warlocks, right? But that behavior is like very... Those are the same I know. I mean, I'm sure there's difference. I'm sure a witch somewhere

[00:20:51] and a charismatic Christian somewhere will tell me that those are different. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful just in my understanding of them. Remembrance of them, do they? Down and talk together, they need to talk. Yes, out. Yeah. So, I mean, that's like the basic idea

[00:21:07] of those three things and usually in my sect, you are overcome by a presence that is usually felt like with your dance skin. Like you can feel like you're overtaken. Which is also, I don't mean to simplify or be disrespectful. It's very rock and roll.

[00:21:26] So again, there's the space for like, we've all been there. We've all felt that. That's my understanding of it now and I was gonna ask you first, but I'll share my view and then I'm curious about yours too. It's like, yeah, we all feel that

[00:21:41] like when you're at a live concert and it's, you know, the crowd kind of feels the same vibe but that to me speaks to the power of music, not the power of the Holy Spirit because you can feel that of a secular concert too.

[00:21:54] And I'm wondering your take on it as someone from a charismatic background and as a musician who can kind of also see the power of music in different ways too to those feel connected to you? My short answer is yes. I do think they're connected.

[00:22:09] I'm still reconciling and reckoning with like everything I was given growing up which is why I'm so appreciative of podcasts like this and up the work that you do and the people you speak to. I think when I started doing the worship pastor,

[00:22:25] mega church thing in my early 20s and realized like when I would be up there like leaving worship and a friend of mine who I work with now he does the music at our church now. It's almost chanting in the charismatic space

[00:22:43] where we sing the same thing over an over again which it's a religious practice for tons of different like culture spaces, countries, chanting is a thing. Chanting studies show us that it's meditative it can have positive effects on your body.

[00:23:02] Chanting could be maybe singing the same thing over an over again with thousands of people. Those are vibrations. So again as a rorean which when he leaves us that's what we'll probably all be called. You know, he kind of tries to help us see

[00:23:21] the science of our bodies alongside of like what Christian practices and like the stern practices and so many other religious practices are showing us. So when you're in that musical space I think something spiritual is happening as well as physical to your body.

[00:23:42] Most of my spiritual work got I've done PMDR therapy. I'm in just talk therapy now. I've had a spiritual director to just clean up the mess of just growing up in a really intense religious environment. Most of the work I've done is like,

[00:23:58] and I shared this with you when we were emiling, like where am I supposed to find God now then? Like I can't identify with my faith away at use too but I know I found God at some point. Like it was very real to me.

[00:24:11] So where the hell did God go? I think in moments like that concerts, musical moments like I feel like that's when there's a unity that belongs to all of us that is very spiritual and that is God's presence. But I know that that's a blanket statement.

[00:24:32] I just feel like now at this phase in my faith I look for God everywhere because people who've taken care of my soul after the trauma, therapists and spiritual directors, they've taught me, okay, so you can't find him in the Bible because it's triggering to open nothing.

[00:24:50] Where can you find him? And the first answer I gave them was music. So they were like fine, try to find God in the music and you know here we are, we get to share about that together, you and I but I think it's the same.

[00:25:05] I think that God in those musical spaces and the chanting, I know this is a long answer. I think that's the same. I think people interpret them in such a way that create limits and that's what was really hurting me as I was trying to heal.

[00:25:19] So now I'm kind of like, no, I feel like God's in that space. Like last night, this is so random but our friends couldn't make the Jacob Collier concert. He was performing at Radio City Music Hall. You see in this guy, how he has everyone sing together,

[00:25:34] it's beautiful. I have not seen him live but I like his stuff a lot, it's very cool. Yeah, he's cool. He also, I don't know if he's a person of faith but I know that what happened last night when everyone was singing together

[00:25:48] and we were all like a choir of strangers. I feel like that was spiritual and I also feel like there was something like with physics and like science that was happening to our bodies with the vibrations and people had like an encounter with something divine

[00:26:04] and I interpret that as a God. I've known all along maybe we all know this God but this is coming with different spaces. So that's what I'm trying to say. I'm like pretty like barely Christian. But woo, the woo, do you feel like the God

[00:26:21] that you believed in as a kid is the same God that you believe in now or do you feel like it he, they, she has changed on my new album. I play with that a bit calling God, she, like oh my God, from my dad here's this.

[00:26:36] He's gonna be like what? That's such a beautiful question. I had a moment years ago with just the only spiritual director I've ever had. I'm not seeing her anymore because of the pandemic but we sat down together and we were just kind of listening.

[00:26:54] I was trying to figure out what I believed anymore. I was, we'd be several years ago but she said like what do you see? Like as we sit and like we're prayerful and she was a piscophagalian also very woo woo. She was married to a Jewish, Buddhist man

[00:27:11] and she called them her Jew boo, which I that was so cute. Sorry, that's not the point. When it's, I felt like God had become like, maybe the ocean to me a little bit but in times prior maybe I was just at the shore.

[00:27:27] Yes, I think it's the same God but I have a song about this. I think that when I was young God let me hold her in my hand with all the rules like I can control you, your safe.

[00:27:40] I identify with you, I can fit you in my pocket. I can throw you at people like I feel that God in that infinite love and wisdom like allowed me to know God as much as I wanted to and as I grew in matured

[00:27:53] and became afraid and experienced life, I think I asked to know God more and then I think God became like more than I could imagine. So I feel like he's, she days always been the same. My interpretation has been limiting and taking those limits off.

[00:28:09] But I discovered that with this woman as we were praying and then I wrote a song about it and it's really the only way I know how to answer it. He's always been the same, she's always been the same. But maybe my, I'm the one who's changed

[00:28:23] and God is actually much better and bigger and stranger than I know. What song is that? What's the name of that song? You are ocean, you are ocean, okay? For the sun, holy spirit, learn to crave it, learn to fear it,

[00:28:43] you lived inside my boxed and was so I feel you close. You close. What a vapor frozen nights, land and rock and hope and sky. You let me keep you, cupped in my hands so I feel safe. Can we talk about your music? Let's do it.

[00:29:10] Okay, your music is so beautiful. I've been listening and you said something earlier about finding God in the Bible or maybe you have to go outside of the Bible and then I was looking at the pieces of the songs that you sent me

[00:29:26] and this one about quiet times, called Always In The Book. And the text you sent me is, you are always in the book or is there somewhere else to look for? Do I have to turn the page just to hear you call my name?

[00:29:39] And like finding God outside of the Bible, right? Yes, exactly. I think that's so beautiful and I don't know where do you, I guess you've answered this a little bit already but like where else do you find God?

[00:29:51] Like have do you feel like you find him in the Bible anymore? Do you feel like that's kind of a thing of the past for you and you find them in new spaces now only? Yeah. I think one thing that I've learned is God in the ritual.

[00:30:06] So when I knew I couldn't be meeting the Bible, I was devout. Like I read it front to back for years. I memorized a ton of it. Even talking to you now, I'm like, wow, I still remember where that scripture is. I got trophies.

[00:30:22] We also memorized scripture in school. I mean in Sunday school. I can't do that anymore. I try occasionally the songs or maybe when we reach from the lecture area on Sunday. But I've woken up every morning with coffee like for like 15 years since high school

[00:30:41] and sat down and read the Bible. And like we read that I was communing with God. So working off of like, oh shit, I can't do that anymore. What am I supposed to do now? Where do I find you? Why is people in my life said,

[00:30:55] why don't you still hold the ritual but change the medium? So it's still getting up with your coffee and like being grateful. But maybe it's brightening. Maybe it's music. It's still giving space to the divine. You love to give space to the divine.

[00:31:12] You feel a sense of like homeless and gratitude there. Let's just start there. You don't have to feel bad for not helping the Bible. Prayer can look different. Oh, really great woman in our community. Sean Anyquist says that prayer might just be imagining.

[00:31:27] So if I'm worried about, you know, my dad's health, I might just imagine him healthy. That's a meditative practice. You know, like that comes from like Buddhism. But it's beautiful and I think it's holy. So I hold this space now. That's where I try to find God.

[00:31:43] I also, you know, I think the creative process has been like a really holy practice for me too. Because I almost lost it. I only knew how to write worship songs and now I'm like writing songs about God,

[00:31:56] leaving and God coming back and maybe there is no God but maybe there is. I think that like using our experience to create art. I think is probably one of like the most historically Christian things to do. And I also feel that it's respectful to our journey.

[00:32:14] So I find a lot of my belief pillars there as well. But no, I don't. I found a really special Bible when I was thrifting like a year ago that Richard Norse suggests we use because it's interpretation does not use like anti-homosexuality language

[00:32:36] and some of those Pauline Gospels. And so that's a Bible I'm happy to like put on a shelf. I'm not opening it though. I'm just glad that it's not like slandering the LGBT community. That was like a big piece of my deconstruction.

[00:32:49] Yeah, I've got a lot of friends in that space. And so it's there. I don't use it. Yeah, yeah. How has music helped you through your deconstruction? How has it helped you process some of some of this?

[00:33:03] I think when we can write things down or like I think processing is like what you and I are doing right now. It feels like a really healthy move for me to hear myself say this out loud and be sharing this with you and maybe others.

[00:33:18] And I think that writing is the same. So it was in 2020, I was super angry. We also did the Hillsong New York thing for a second, which I know it gets it from back to but you know they like fell fell far down. Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:34] I don't know if I mentioned that to you and we were connecting, but we left years before all that crazy stuff happened. But I was trying to find a musical outlet, but I was also deconstructing rapidly and like when they get church was literally making me vomit.

[00:33:50] I got food poisoning at their stupid women's conference, then I was like, I'm never going back. I mean, that was not in the night. I know. Woo, woo, all day. My body doesn't like this. And so I didn't have anywhere to make music. Now it's 2020, you can't leave.

[00:34:09] We're in New York. I mean, this place was like lockdown. All I had was my piano and this book that a friend of mine said I should read the artist's way by Julia Cameron, which is probably as gospel as I get. That is a book I stand on.

[00:34:24] I just let a class in our community last summer with this book. It's basically how to unblock creatively. So all I can write is worship songs. I hate worship. I can't listen to it anymore. But I'm a musician. One of my schools to do.

[00:34:39] So in 2020, this book really helped me start writing and all I could think to write about was how I didn't know what I believed anymore.

[00:34:47] And then in my community of musicians, they were like, hey, let's record these and then people really responded and they were like, I feel the same. So like an exchange.

[00:34:57] Like my beliefs and my deconstruction is constantly exchanging and like interchanging with my creative process, which has been super healing. I hope that answers your question. Yeah, totally.

[00:35:08] I think it's so powerful to tell our stories and to talk about it, to write it down, even if you don't know and I think that's one of the reasons that I first started my Instagram account. Hello to constructionists and then eventually the podcast.

[00:35:22] It's like, it's helpful for me to share my story and so I'm guessing that it's helpful for other people to share there as well. And it's helpful for people to listen, but even just on this side of it, like let's say nobody listened to the podcast.

[00:35:37] You and I still got to have this time to process you got to share your story. I got to hear it. I got to share more of mine. And I think that's like such a helpful way of processing music has sort of been that for you too.

[00:35:51] Like even aside from the music part of it, like writing down your questions and your thoughts and your journey along the way. Is that seem true? Yes, yeah, 100%. Yeah.

[00:36:03] And there's this, it's just like this age old question, like you know my husband and I were even talking last night after randomly getting these tickets to Jacob Holy A.

[00:36:11] He says we should be making music for the audience, like for others and his technicality and his performance abilities are unreal. But then our guy, what is his name? There is his book. He's that amazing producer Rick Rubin.

[00:36:29] He says the creative process should only be just for you, like only make music for yourself or your art for yourself. And that's when Jacob Holy A called him out in another podcast and was like I don't believe that why isn't anybody ever like challenge Rick Rubin?

[00:36:44] Because Rick Rubin is like a god, you know he's like this producer master. But you and I are doing both like we're making art, we're making things both for ourselves and that like cyclically help others. Which is more of like Julia Cameron's vibe with the artist way.

[00:37:01] But I'm a big believer in like it should always be an exchange. So I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, and this is like the age old question about music right?

[00:37:11] I'm like back to like my music history classes where we're thinking about you know is music for the performer or is music for the audience. And how do we change music? Do we give the audience what they want? Do we take music and make it a mental?

[00:37:24] I think this was like a big conversation when like a tonal music 12 tone music started coming on the scene and it's like okay, but do we expand music to the next level or do we give the audience what they want?

[00:37:34] And like who is music for and I think it's such an important question and it can be both. Yeah, yeah you have another song I want to highlight called Speak to the sky about prayer that will come out this summer.

[00:37:47] I think you said and it says do you ever talk to god late at night? Have you ever said a stands up for someone who's died? Can you change a thing by speaking in tongues? What if you scream at the top of your lungs? Can you talk a little about that song?

[00:38:00] Yeah, I'm just girl. This is an aside. I'm so worried for when my parents here at the cell phone. I'm worried they're so supportive. They really are but they're going to be like, I still don't understand what happened to you.

[00:38:15] Okay, well, I mean, I'm so proud of this song. I think the first verses that you know, I didn't send to you and that you didn't read are more like I think the words are like holy rounds making sounds looking down at the ground.

[00:38:30] We're white muckling to a short thing catching hands, heal our land understand I won't release my certainty. That's how I grew to understand prayer at first and then comes the chorus that you saying.

[00:38:42] But then the second verse is kind of like little bird every word over her like actually prayer can be like an act of faith, sweet and personal. And maybe prayer is releasing my certainty instead of clinging to it.

[00:39:00] So really a lot of these songs they're not confessing anti belief or belief. It's more like how am I going to reinterpret a tradition I've been given that I still for God knows why find meaning in like so many people have left this faith for such good reason but for some reason, I'm still identifying with it and I'm still finding meaning in it.

[00:39:24] And so these songs are more like prayer used to be like this for me, but now prayers like that for me and also who knows where these prayers go. I don't but it's a practice that I still use.

[00:39:35] So I think it's a lot of like my friend John he's a pianist on the album he thinks the album should be called true sing with maybe because that's a line I haven't one of my songs like maybe we should just like shake hands with maybe like who knows anything.

[00:39:51] I think that's the space that I'm in more now and I hope that when people hear these songs they feel a sense of peace with like the fact that we don't know I don't know why I continue to practice this faith and why it's meaningful to me.

[00:40:06] And I don't know if it's true we don't know but like we could be cool with that like we could just like be a piece and be accepting.

[00:40:15] I think the album is more about that which I've actually never said out loud but when you read my lyrics back to me, I'm like that's probably what I'm going for and what I would like to give people is like allowing themselves to just not know.

[00:40:27] Yeah, I love that. I often think about it like I used to hold onto my beliefs so tightly and I try to hold on to them less tightly now and just hold them a little bit more loosely so that they can come and go as they feel right for me.

[00:40:41] And it feels like that's what you're kind of doing with some of your practices too and like if holding on to the label Christianity is still helpful for you then hold onto it.

[00:40:51] There's no right way to deconstruct there's no right way to figure out what you believe and you can keep what works for you and let go of what doesn't, you know.

[00:40:59] Yes, I completely agree. I think that's why that ocean song came to mind when you asked like it's got different than God was when you were young.

[00:41:09] I feel like God was amazed or something I could stand on now it feels very fast. Like holding something loosely versus holding something tightly now I'm like kind of just floating and there's no bottom and I don't know when the next wave will hit me but it's something I am in a body of water like there's something meaningful and beautiful to me that still holds a spiritual space.

[00:41:32] But I like what you said holding loosely I think is I think it's key for people like us. I mean if we're going to achieve mental health, we can't be white knuckling this stuff.

[00:41:44] You know I have often thought about my own deconstruction as like being in this body of water so it's so interesting that you're using this analogy to but like the thick of it of deconstructing was like that murky muddy water like when you're in a lake and like you kick up the bottom and then you go under and you can't see anything.

[00:42:04] And like you put your hands out and you don't know if anybody's there. There are people but you can't like you can't see your hands you can't see other people and like if you reach out people are there but you don't know that until you like till you reach out and find other people.

[00:42:18] And now I feel like it's less murky now. I feel like I'm swimming in clear water I can still kick up the bottom. Like things still come up for me sometimes but overall like I'm swimming I can swim to different places like I'm happy I'm good.

[00:42:34] There's still stuff there it's not like oh cool deconstructing is over but it feels much less murky now and you have a song called It's so dark about losing God and the words that stuck out to me are because now I find myself in this place.

[00:42:47] Don't know where I am or if it's safe no sign of my hand in front of my face where have we gone and when I read that use a headset that to me and when I read that I was like that is my description of myself deconstructing.

[00:43:00] It's like it's so dark and you don't know what you believe and you don't know where you are and those words just really resonated with me can you talk a little about that song.

[00:43:10] Yeah that means so much I can't tell you how much it means to hear like a fellow calm rat and arms about deconstructing say that's exactly what it feels like it just feels like a firming like okay good we're both we both done this and it feels the same.

[00:43:27] I remember I mean I imagine you know about the liturgist podcast yes yeah I mean they helped lead the way for all of us like my early 20s I was sneaking their podcast.

[00:43:40] But you know science Mike like he wrote this book about what it was like to lose his beliefs I think the book was called finding God in the waves.

[00:43:47] The way he described losing God like when he knew he didn't believe anymore he said it felt like the floor fell out for under him because he had gone through his whole life always feeling another presence with him.

[00:44:03] And when it was like the nail in the coffin like there's no one here that alone this it was like he didn't even know how to like stand up like he had no concept of like this new world that he was in.

[00:44:19] And I've never fully experienced I think I've had moments of like what if like God wasn't real and now I've allowed myself to sit with those but I felt darkness for sure like I have no idea where God is.

[00:44:37] I think it's the same kind of like disorientation like I'm completely disoriented now just like in a lake with all this stuff mucked up around you just like when you can't like the waves keep hitting you in an ocean I mean there's so many great metaphors but like the darkness.

[00:44:55] I don't know what I believe anymore I can't see where the hell are you because you said you would always be with me and like I've stuck around but now I'm thinking critically and like getting older and wiser it's just like a really painful place to be and I think it deserves like singing.

[00:45:16] Also as Christians we sing so much about like being found and like rejoicing and I feel like there's so much like darkness and nastiness and scripture about like.

[00:45:27] Curse God and die I have no idea where that dude is you know but I don't know why we don't create art out of that space I think maybe we're not braving up to.

[00:45:38] That was the very first song I was braving up to right after I started the artist way it was the first song I recorded that was the first song I released so it's really special to me and I think it started there like I don't know where God is right now I'm going to write this song.

[00:45:52] But I was really touched by that testimonial from science, Mike of like when I knew God wasn't real I felt I've never felt more alone in my life. I think that's how we all feel when we start to deconstruct.

[00:46:04] Yeah and even if you ultimately end up believing in God still to let yourself question it means that you believe that there is a chance.

[00:46:14] And even that feels like the floor has gone even that feels like total darkness and just like really scary because that has always been there.

[00:46:25] Yeah, terrifying it's like a really terrifying feeling yeah I had another friend just to like I don't know think about it in a different way too I had another friend who said when he stopped believing in God it felt like like the radio static turned off.

[00:46:40] And there was finally like quiet and like a peacefulness and I think that's also a beautiful way to think about it and I mean it just feels different for different people but yeah to throw in that out there too because it's.

[00:46:54] It's like oh there also can be something relieving about it too if the God that you believed in wasn't serving you anymore and I was like yeah my best friends back home in New Mexico told me a couple years ago just so you know I mean they went to Hillsong College.

[00:47:12] Yeah they were like done done done yeah but they reached out to me and they were like we were just chatting we were on a face time and they said we threw out like all of our Christian books and we like I just want you to know we're no longer like identifying as Christians and I was like I'm so proud of you like I bet that feeling so good and I think that's exactly what you need.

[00:47:32] I can no longer be that type of Christian that's like praying for people who don't believe. I think that's weird. I think not believing is another version of belief and I think if it serves as static off in your head finally, who wouldn't want that for someone?

[00:47:49] Like I think that's so gorgeous. I feel like I mean I'm a little more emotional or like no one's gonna hear this right but we're recording.

[00:47:56] I feel like God wants that. I feel like if we could ask God if she were here, I think she'd be like yep that's the best possible thing for that person they are so peaceful now and like that is a human that can walk fear and live enjoy.

[00:48:13] I don't think God's interested in you knowing about God and believing in God. That's too big.

[00:48:19] And I think that to be able to view it that way means that you have a different understanding of God now than either of us had when we grew up in the church.

[00:48:28] That God was like you said you could put him in your hands and he was like these are the rules this is what you believe. This God is like how can you be the best version of yourself?

[00:48:39] In episode with Marla Taviano she said this line keeps coming back to me that she said which she took from someone else who now I don't remember.

[00:48:47] So I'll credit her and you can go back to her episode to see who she credits but it's like love as a commitment to someone's wholeness.

[00:48:55] And when I think about God is love, love being a commitment to your wholeness if you feel more whole when you turn the static off then that is better for you.

[00:49:07] That is good for you get rid of God then, you know like that's a better version than sticking to this version of God that we grew up with it.

[00:49:16] Oh, trolling and demanding and evil really you know it's like this evil God that sends people to hell that's not something that I'm interested in believing that is not helping me be committed to my own hold.

[00:49:29] That's so beautiful this will grow got chills the rice well he said that I'm not kidding. I think that's so beautiful and I sometimes the only prayer I can bring myself to pray when I pray for myself because God knows we prayed crazy prayers for ourselves growing up.

[00:49:46] I mean I'm sure you did I know I did obsessive with our righteousness yes now sometimes the only prayer I pray is to be whole I just ask God make me whole today.

[00:49:57] I don't I lack for nothing I want for anything I want to walk through this earth at peace with myself and with others.

[00:50:04] And to imagine that that's all a God would be interested in their praise and their identity be damned like that feels more holy and vast me than like a God who is who like wants his name like spread to the nations.

[00:50:21] I mean yes, yeah, which I mean again we could go off we could teetor off so many directions like that's such a cultural thing for an ancient text like of course you said that God's name should be spread to the nations because that's what people were saying about King.

[00:50:37] This is not that like this is not that time if God was God then and God has got now like we have evolved we are interpreting this differently yes God is committed to my whole life if I don't need to be praying to that thing every day than I won and I'm better for it and I think he's good with it she's good with it.

[00:50:54] So I am right there with you I got to write that down maybe I'll make it into a song and I'll send you. Oh yes oh my god Marla would love that.

[00:51:04] Oh that's an inspiring line truly the idea of only like love being committed to someone's soul that's so cool.

[00:51:11] Yeah and I think too because in my flavor of evangelicalism there was this obsession with the fact that we are broken we are born broken and only God can make us whole and I have learned that for me I'm committed to my own wholeness because I love myself

[00:51:30] I'm learning to love myself and take care of myself and that comes with believing and knowing that I am not inherently broken.

[00:51:39] And so I think there's I think I love this idea of being committed to your wholeness because it's so it's so opposite of this idea of brokenness that was really ingrained in me from the time I was again.

[00:51:52] Yeah I like to end with encouragement for listeners so could you offer some encouragement to the person who is deconstructing and let's see I like to try to make it specific to your experience.

[00:52:07] Any group that you might be in charismatic circles could be people trying to reclaim music for themselves. Well said I was kind of thinking of that too those two exact groups okay I think I think you said it so well that's going to stick with me.

[00:52:22] I think that's a really cool picture of like if you need the static sound off turn it off like I think we all have the right to care for ourselves and get what we need and I think that if there is a God.

[00:52:36] If there is a God they are interested in our wholeness and our health.

[00:52:41] And I think we must do everything we can do to become whole and heal and healthy so my hope for people listening is that they do they take those next steps to do that whether that be belief or letting go of belief or just being in the middle somewhere like me.

[00:53:03] I think if you're creatively blocked the most practical application I can get is to read the artist way by Julia Cameron. If you're like a Rick Ruben weirdo which I kind of am you could get his book too.

[00:53:18] I think it's called on creative living or on creative being and I think we can turn the mundane and the tragic into like beautiful art and then share it.

[00:53:30] And I think that is a process for healing too so I hope that someone who's blocked maybe their block because they only ever made religious art.

[00:53:39] They might try to do something completely different with their medium and I bet it will be very successful and bring them a lot of like joy and then also really touch a lot of people in their space.

[00:53:54] I encourage those listening to your podcast to try that too. It worked for me, it's worked for my friends and it's very meaningful makes life better so get out there and make something. I love that. Yeah get out there and make something.

[00:54:09] Alright well thank you so much for being here Jane this was such a wonderful conversation. Thank you Maggie. I really enjoyed it too. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:54:21] If you enjoyed this episode or any others please like follow or subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it leave us a review so other people know what this show is all about.

[00:54:30] If you have any questions, comments or parts of your own experience you'd like to share on the podcast you can email me at hello.deconsts at gmail.com

[00:54:38] And as always you can find me over on Instagram at hello, underscore deconstructionists where together we are building community posts even jellicosum. Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing their theme song for this podcast and when the sweet little box inevitably gets stuck in your head

[00:54:54] I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you. Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us and of course to you for listening. See you next time!