26: More Qualified Than a Pastor with Moriah Conant

[00:00:01] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:00:48] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most of all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy just as you are. My guest today is Mariah Conan who uses they she pronouns.

[00:01:07] Mariah is a psychologist in training who specializes in working with LGBTQIA plus individuals, young adults and healing from trauma, relational, religious, medical, etc. They utilize a relational psychodynamic approach to therapy along with feminist psychology and LGBTQIA plus affirming psychology.

[00:01:26] She is passionate about making mental health care and information about mental health accessible and equitable. They are currently completing their training through a placement at a university counseling center and you can follow Mariah on Instagram at mconantpsychology. Mariah, thank you for being here.

[00:01:43] I'm so excited to hear more of your story. Mariah came up on my feed or has been coming up on my feed recently because they had a beautiful wonderful protest at graduation at the commencement ceremony.

[00:01:57] So yeah, I'm excited to hear more about that and hear more about your story. So thanks for being here. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to chat today. So I like to start with a little bit of background about your church experience, your religious experience.

[00:02:11] So we have some context for your deconstruction. So tell us about your time in church and what that was like for you. Yeah, so I grew up in American mostly white evangelical churches and because my

[00:02:25] family moved a lot and my parents were kind of like first gen Christians, we were never in like a specific denomination. Like we went to a lot of non-denominational churches or the denomination of the church would depend on where we were living.

[00:02:41] So that's something that's been different to me, especially going to a seminary and hearing that people are like right or die, like certain denominations. That was something my parents are always like, oh, we care more about what the church believes than about like the name or their affiliation.

[00:02:58] So that is kind of what I grew up in a lot of purity culture, a lot of like average evangelicalism. You're pretty familiar with that in the U S and then I now understand that I have dealt with screw velocity OCD for a very long time.

[00:03:16] So that's a certain type of OCD that is kind of fixated around your belief system and like being a good person and growing up in high control religious environments is one of the like main causes for this.

[00:03:31] So especially when I was a teenager, there were things that were like more intense or more conservative that I believed that my family didn't believe because I felt so much anxiety and pressure to like always do the right

[00:03:45] thing and always be looking for like, am I missing something? Am I doing enough? Am I doing what's right? So that was something that also like influenced my interaction with my faith and then the faith communities that I was part of.

[00:04:01] I'm thinking about your parents, like finding all these different churches and you said it seems like they cared more about what the church believed than like a denomination label. Can you talk about what beliefs they looked for in churches?

[00:04:15] And then I'm also curious about the screw velocity OCD and maybe those things intertwine, like the beliefs that you were looking for or that your parents were looking for and kind of leading to this OCD. But if they're separate, we can talk about them separately too. Yeah.

[00:04:29] So I think they had like a set of beliefs that, you know, if you look at churches or a community statement of faith would probably be pretty similar of like Jesus is the son of God, God the father, God the son, God the

[00:04:41] Holy Spirit, like some more of those like faith statements and then finding communities to be part of because my dad is finally in the retirement process from the army but has been in the army longer than I've been alive.

[00:04:53] So I've lived in 10 states, we've moved around quite a bit. So I think that some of those things were more important like finding a community and then being able to align with these belief systems. In regards to like the screw velocity OCD, we have history in our family

[00:05:09] on both sides of mental health concerns. So I think that definitely some of this is genetic and some of it was environmental with the stressors. But especially when I was a teenager, I started to feel like really

[00:05:20] anxious about like the decisions that I was making and how I was interacting with people. And I did not grow up in a cult, but I grew up adjacent to people in cults. And so like, as an adult, I've learned so much more about different

[00:05:36] cults in the belief systems. And you know, all of these things that are finally there's more like ex-prosase more recently and all of these religious trauma documentaries that have been made. And so I've been able to say like, oh, that person that I knew

[00:05:49] leads that like that is exactly what they believe. And so kind of being on the like, again, like adjacent to seeing what they believe and what they say. And so hearing these other adults like in my life saying like, oh,

[00:06:00] you should only wear skirts and you should only do these things and that you shouldn't be involved in this. You shouldn't watch this. And my girlfriend is Jewish and so like did not grow up Christian, isn't super familiar with like Christian purity culture.

[00:06:16] But at one point, I was like telling her the story of like one of these other parents, like one of my friend's parents had given me these like CDs that were like a recording of like a modesty conference or something very Christian homeschooler.

[00:06:31] But the male speaker was talking about how you know how like on like if you buy like a blower underwear from the store, sometimes they have like little bows like either like on your stern arm or like by the waistband.

[00:06:45] And they were like, you should cut those off with your daughter's underwear because you don't want her to become fixated on like looking at herself in the mirror when she's naked and just that like disconnection.

[00:07:00] I mean, I feel like all of that is just kind of like summarized by like how disconnected I was from my body and my experience. And so yeah, I felt anxious all the time. I was having panic attacks like every night.

[00:07:14] And so a lot of that turned into like, I have to do the right thing, have to think about the right thing. I have to think about everything that I'm wearing. And honestly, it was very confusing to my parents because I don't think they understand.

[00:07:29] They tried, but I don't think they were able to understand that anxiety aspect of the compulsions and the obsessions until I feel like, I have to wear this skirt. And I'm like, that doesn't make sense. We're going to go do manual labor. Why?

[00:07:44] So stuff like that, I think also kind of just like I grew up very much in American evangelicalism. But I think that like OCD also like isolated me. And so sometimes my experience too, I'm like, well, it wasn't just that. But it was always related to that.

[00:08:01] Yeah, yeah. Well, and you said that they were like first generation Christians, which means at some point, they chose to participate in the church. And you didn't choose it. You were born into it. And so you're getting all of these teachings that you're told is

[00:08:19] fact and is more than life or death. It's like eternity, like your eternity hangs in the balance because of what you do or based on what you do. And so it makes sense that you would take these teachings so seriously and think like, am I doing everything right?

[00:08:36] And like, is it enough or do I need to be doing more? Do I need to check what I'm wearing? Do I need to check my thoughts more? And I think that can be hard for people to understand who did

[00:08:46] join Christianity later rather than being born into it, because for them it was a choice and they knew a life before Christianity that we never knew or you never knew. And I also grew up in it. So I also never knew something beforehand.

[00:09:00] There was no before for us. Yeah. And I think so I have like one grandparent who is Christian out of everyone's divorce agreement. So I have like four sets of grandparents. So I think like my mom grew up to be a Christian parent.

[00:09:10] And so she and my dad like met in youth group. It was a very positive experience for them, like their youth pastor married that, you know, like it was this like positive community when they were dealing with a lot of family stuff and all this stuff going on.

[00:09:24] So yeah, I think for them, it was something that they chose. It was something that was really positive. They're still connected with some of those friends and that youth pastor and things like that. So they did have this really positive experience, which is different. Yeah.

[00:09:37] Choosing a positive experience is different. Right. So when did your beliefs start to shift in terms of Christianity and spirituality? Yeah. So another part of both evangelicalism and then the scrupulous OCD was having to always know what I believed, which, you know, like apologetics feeds right

[00:09:58] into like, you always have to have an answer. You have to know what you believe. Right. You have to defend it because you never know. Like you always have to have an answer. I did 16 years of Awana. I got a college scholarship for it. Wow.

[00:10:11] I didn't even know that was a thing. Yep. It's called a citation award. Oh my God. That's amazing. So like all the like memorizing scripture and like for anyone not familiar with Awana, they have all these like workbooks and stuff. So there's also the apologetics built into it.

[00:10:29] The question is like, who is Jesus? And then there's like eight entries that you learn. That's like, Jesus is the son of God. And then it's like, here's the verse for it. So you're learning all these like answers to these questions and then

[00:10:41] the scripture that like backs it up. Awana is like a 12 step recovery program. Like how to prove that Jesus is real in 12 steps. Yes. It is apologetics for kids. So like growing up with that and then growing up in like homeschooling circles

[00:10:56] with people who are like really into like apologetic, like Ken Ham and like all these people. And so whenever I felt any doubts, which the American church is not good with, I always felt really intense anxiety about that and not knowing, feeling

[00:11:13] like I have to know and I have to be certain. So it was probably when I was a teenager and started having more friends who like were outside of the church and they started asking questions like, well, what does the Bible say about queer people?

[00:11:31] And then I was like, here's what Leviticus says. And then I was like, I don't like that answer. Like it feels like nothing. Like that didn't tell me anything. I was like, here's the verse and they're like, okay. Yeah, same. I don't know what to tell you.

[00:11:49] Like kind of having those moments where I was like, this doesn't make sense. And then as I got older, like starting to see, you know, even like Christian friends that I had grown up with being like queer relationships.

[00:12:04] And like, I think something that I always come back to is like thinking about the fruits of the spirit and knowing, especially as a mental health professional, like how much the negative mental health outcomes are increased for marginalized groups, like queer individuals and how, like,

[00:12:21] if you think of like fruits of the spirit and like a bad fruit, like that is a bad fruit. If people are killing themselves, like that is a bad thing. And to see, you know, people choose these relationships with their

[00:12:33] partners or to just choose themselves or choose like to live authentically in their gender and to see good fruits of like love and better mental health. And like being engaged with, you know, their communities and their belief systems and being like, that looks exactly like what good fruit

[00:12:55] is supposed to be. And so with that, and then as any deconstructionist does, I read Rachel Held Evans and that was like the gateway author. The gateway out. And like, I feel like that was the first time that someone was like, oh yeah, it's okay to have doubts.

[00:13:14] It's okay to have questions. It's okay to like not know where you sit with this. And I feel like those things were kind of like the beginning. So when did you, like, when did you read Rachel Held Evans and when did you decide to go to seminary?

[00:13:32] Like when was seminary in your deconstruction? Yeah. So actually I've been in Christian higher ed for 10 years. Okay. So I went to a Christian undergrad first and then came here because I'm a masochist. I don't know. So I feel like with both choosing my undergrad and choosing

[00:13:54] fuller at the time I was making the decision, like my faith was something that was really important to me and something that I really wanted to be part of my education because yeah, it was something that was meaningful to me.

[00:14:07] And one of the reasons why I was pursuing like becoming a mental health professional and wanting to be able to like help and support people. So that was a value that I really had. Some of the early deconstruction was probably like late teens, like going into undergrad.

[00:14:22] And then things definitely started unraveling more, but I was like, Oh, when I get to California, it'll be like super liberal and chill. And I can figure out what I believe. And that did not, I mean, it happened, but not in the smooth way

[00:14:38] that I thought it was going. Yeah. So what did it look like? What was the, what were the bumps in the road? Yeah. So now I identify as demisexual and bisexual and gender fluid. But when I was in undergrad, I had a stereotypical, you know,

[00:14:58] homoerotic friendship with someone that later I looked back and was like, wait, where I like basically dated this person for three and a half years and was on the way at the time. And at least a good chunk of that relationship in the back of my mind,

[00:15:15] I was like, this is not a friendship. Like, I don't know what this is, but it's not, this is not a normal thing, but it was like, my mental health is in a really bad place. And I was like, really like having a hard time with the West.

[00:15:28] And it just like was not the priority to figure out while I was like living in rural Indiana and trying to make it through school and take care of my mental health. So that was something that I was like, all right, we're putting a pin in this.

[00:15:43] We're going to come back to this when I'm not here. And so that was kind of in my mind. Like I moved to California and like, I can figure out what this is. And people think that Fuller is really liberal, but the way that I understand

[00:15:58] it is that Fuller is liberal in terms of Christian schools, but it is maybe moderate in terms of Christianity. So like, they're still big on the like, we think women can be pastors. And a lot of people are like, yes. And what else?

[00:16:19] Like where else are we going from here? Yeah. So in terms of like Christianity, there's still pretty conservative. One of the seminary students that I knew here at one point tweeted, like when people ask me what it's like to go to Fuller, I tell them that both

[00:16:36] John Piper and Rob Bell graduated from here. So for people not familiar with them, Rob Bell is also one of the like deconstructionist authors. And then John Piper, does he write for the gospel coalition? I don't know if he does. He's in that same like grouping of people.

[00:16:54] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did a purpose-driven life. No, did he? No, no, no. He didn't. That's right. He did. Sorry. I just saw that book. Yeah. Yeah. He did. Don't waste your life. That's what it is. And Desiring God, the Desiring God series. Yeah.

[00:17:10] So Fuller tries to not have a stance on anything. Their line is that they're multi-denominational, but only the denominations that they want to include. And do they frame it as like the denominations that they want to include are like that's real Christianity and denominations that

[00:17:28] they don't want is like, well, that's not really Christian. Like, is that their? They don't tell you because they don't want to take a stance. Okay. So they wait until you're like, well, what about this? And they're like, no. Okay. So what were some of those things?

[00:17:44] And then I'd love to hear about commencement and... Yeah. So obviously a big thing is like queer affirmation. And if you do research on like different denominations, like this is the first place that I really learned a lot about some

[00:17:58] of the like denominational differences and things like how they appoint pastors and how they regulate communities and how denominations are connected from, you know, local church to local church. And some of the differences in belief systems about like, we believe that we no longer receive communication directly

[00:18:19] from God. Like we receive it from the Bible. There are no longer prophets, like prophecy is done, Jesus is here or like things like that. So that was helpful I think in deconstructing the book a little bit more at like, oh, this is like what on paper

[00:18:35] theologically, like some of these different denominations believe. And there are churches like the Episcopal Church or the like UCC that have long since been affirming of queer people or to learn more about like how Southern Baptists don't regulate anything really.

[00:18:52] And you don't have to have any sort of education to be a Southern Baptist pastor, which is wildly concerning. Because to me that just sounds like a game of telephone of like, you're just preaching whatever was preached to you right with your own spin on it. Yep. Dangerous.

[00:19:08] Yes. I have had a lot more seminary education because I went to a Bible college and seminary and then like came to another seminary. So like I've had a lot more education than a lot of pastors. Yeah.

[00:19:23] I mean, I only did undergrad at a Christian school and I had a biblical studies minor, not major because I was a music major. And I have more of a Bible degree than many pastors, like then my pastor growing up. Yeah.

[00:19:37] I was like, wait, wait, wait, this can't be like you have to have some qualifications to do your job. And it is wild to me that like men can have no qualifications and still be a pastor in many denominations

[00:19:49] and you can have 10 years of Christian higher ed and not be allowed to for multiple reasons. Yeah. So I currently live in Pasadena and so it's like really busy. And so I was with some friends and I was like walking in

[00:20:06] the like downtown area and we have a bunch of those crosswalks that are like you can cross all ways. So you have to wait like for all the lights to change and then everybody can cross diagonally across the streets and stuff. Yep.

[00:20:17] So like on a weekend people kind of pile up because there's just a lot of people coming and going. So it's like friends and I'm not going to call this guy pastor this Christian man with a microphone. I have no idea his background.

[00:20:31] He didn't even have any signs or anything. He left the microphone. He was yelling about how like men should always be the leaders and women aren't allowed to do anything. And like, I don't it was a bunch of just like complitarianism nonsense.

[00:20:47] And so I was like, have you gone to seminary? And at first he either just like decided not to respond to me or like didn't say anything and just like kept talking. And then a little bit later he goes, did somebody say something to me?

[00:21:02] And the light had changed. So we're like starting to move. And I was like, have you gone to seminary because this is a terrible interpretation. And then he was like, wow, a woman with blue hair, that's a red flag. And it was just like ranting at me. Wow.

[00:21:20] And to me, it felt funny because I was just like, yeah, that's exactly what I expected. Right. But there were so many people there because we were running across and everyone around me was just like looking at me with like wide eyes. And I'm like, what just happened?

[00:21:35] And I was like, oh yeah, it's Saturday. Like this is normal. And like the audacity that he thinks. You don't want to engage at all. Right. That he thinks he could do that. And yeah, you don't want to engage with that.

[00:21:49] Like, you know, you know what he thinks. You know where that's going. Yeah. So that was like one of the big, yeah. So that's about like qualifications and stuff and how they don't mean anything. But one of the big pieces at Fuller is just

[00:22:03] like how they actively harm queer people. And so it's been five years that I've like actively been doing advocacy here for the like inclusion and safety of queer people. And that was kind of launched in full force after I took a psychopathology class,

[00:22:24] which is basically the class that you learn about the DSM and all the different diagnoses. And so kind of like what are the diagnoses? How do you assess for them? How do you diagnose people? And the professor of this class was tenured. He'd been there forever.

[00:22:40] And both of the classes that I took with him, he just taught his opinions. And in psychopathology, he was talking about gender dysphoria, which is a like diagnosis in the DSM that you can receive, which basically talks about the distress from feeling disconnected with like how you

[00:22:59] exist in your body and the gender that you are. So one of the reasons that it is in the DSM is to try and help people get gender affirming care because insurance won't pay for anything that doesn't have a diagnosis. Right.

[00:23:15] So there's lots of talk back and forth about like, is it stigmatizing to still have this? Is it helpful to have it so that people can access care? Right. But he is just like going on and on about this and he's talking in this really negative way.

[00:23:27] And he's just telling a story about his college roommate who like smoked weed in college and now is like a teacher at a grade school in the Midwest. And like a student came in and was like, this is my name, these are my pronouns.

[00:23:43] And he was like, no, I'm not going to use them. And so I was like, well, if you don't do that, aren't you like adding more stress and harm to a population that we already know is very vulnerable, like has negative mental health outcomes?

[00:23:59] Like, and so I like this is like burned into my brain, but he was like, well, if I don't think they're a woman and I use like she her pronouns, then I'm supporting their delusion. This is an APA accredited grad school program, which is like gold standard

[00:24:21] for psychologists. Yeah. Wow. So that led into like, I met with our program chair and then she and I met with him because it's like, I'm not meeting with him alone. He's going to be abusive. And then he was even more abusive to

[00:24:38] me than I expected in front of the chair. Wow. And then like that led to him like continuing to professionally abuse me until he retired. And like I was having panic attacks like every time that I came to campus, which is most days because

[00:24:58] of the stress of that. And then my second year, so 2019, 2020, two queer former students filed lawsuits against Fuller. Okay. For expelling them for being in same sex marriages. Okay. So that's when like institutionally Fuller started to really buckle down because they were like, oh, if we

[00:25:20] say anything, the lawyers can depose us and they kept using the lawsuits as an excuse to not talk about anything that was queer related because they were like, oh, our lawyers have said we can't talk about the lawsuits because the other side could depose us if we

[00:25:32] say anything. But then they were like, we can't talk about queer students. We're like, but we're here. Right. We would like to talk about this. Right. You can't just ignore our existence. So then they hired the law firm that represented Hobby Lobby when

[00:25:48] they didn't want to cover birth control. It was a massive eye roll from me for listeners. For the non-visuals? Yeah. And then there was, they were like, oh, well we make a web page for every case that we have. You can go and like look at

[00:26:06] what we've written about this case. And basically it's a firm that does religious freedom stuff. Like that's what they specialize in. I'm assuming evangelicalism based on these two cases, but I don't know that for sure. But this page, they basically were like, well, if Jewish

[00:26:24] people can eat kosher and Muslim people can wear hijabs and a couple other religious practices, then we can expel queer people. That those are different things. Those are very different. One is like, can I eat what I want? And one is like, does

[00:26:42] that person have the right to exist? Like that's different. Yeah. So it's been a lot of just like for a couple years, I tried like advocating like at Fuller and that became like so burnt out, so like hopeless about the state of things here.

[00:27:03] And there aren't really great options for leaving a program just because of the way that accreditation works and programs work. It's very hard to transfer. And so I'm almost done with my side D degree, so it's a doctorate in clinical psychology. So if you tried to

[00:27:22] transfer, you could maybe transfer up to a year of credits, but especially coming from like a seminary, I would have had a lot of like Christian specific classes that wouldn't have transferred to a secular school. And if I went to religious school, it'd be even more conservative.

[00:27:39] So in 2020, I kind of had to make the decision of like, am I going to leave with my masters and never finish this? Like never become a psychologist, never become a mental health professional, or am I going to stay here and like keep going through that?

[00:27:56] So that was a really hard decision. And like obviously I said, okay, if I'm going to stay here for supposed to be for years, I'm going to just have to work this for. But if I'm going to stay here, like I have to figure

[00:28:06] out how to make it through. And so some of the shifts were like, how are you spending my energy? And so someone else in my cohort and I like decided to start a gender and sexuality alliance for both like seminary and psych students that were more

[00:28:22] like discussions and education about topics related to gender and sexuality. Because we knew that there were people that wanted to have conversations and who wanted to learn things. And so instead of trying to spend our energy trying to get fuller to do something, like invest in students

[00:28:38] who like did want to have their conversations. And yes, staying connected to I don't know if you're familiar with REAP, but it's a it's called Religious Exemption Accountability Project. So it was originally started out of the lawsuits against fuller. And I think there's 50 or 60 plaintiffs at this point.

[00:28:58] It's a lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Education to try and remove. So Title IX is the like discrimination protections for students. But if you're a religious school, you can get a Title IX exemption to legally discriminate against students. So this lawsuit has plaintiffs from all levels

[00:29:18] of religious school in like grade school, undergrad, grad school. And they're basically trying to get the U.S. Department of Education to remove that because that allows them to receive federal funding and legally discriminate. So one of my good friends, Erin Green, is one of the

[00:29:34] like main people over there and like working with them and like having support in other ways has been really helpful to like try and stay connected to community. And God bless social media and the Internet like finding people on Instagram to connect with who also value things

[00:29:51] like this and like to not feel as like untethered all the time of like it's been a very isolating experience. And so finding people like outside of this bubble that I've been stuck in for a long time. I don't know what the original question was,

[00:30:08] but I don't know, but I'm loving it. You're sharing so you're good. Yeah, I mean, that's so great. Like you've been in this bubble for so long and to be able to like help people that are also in the bubble by reaching out and

[00:30:26] yeah, and helping to like make change at a bigger level. I think that's really cool and so admirable. Good job. Hopefully it will feel a little bit better in context, but I think especially a couple of years ago, we organized a protest where like schools could

[00:30:42] participate in it was on like National Coming Out Day. And that was the actual protest was like meaningful. But then afterwards, so many people who worked at Fuller came up to me and either were like, I didn't know that was your experience or I didn't

[00:30:58] know you were queer. And at that point, I had been there for four years and I have not been quiet, especially about this. And so like, I definitely had like an existential crisis after that of like, has anything I've done made any sort of difference

[00:31:16] if you like forgot about the abuse that I've experienced? Yeah. And so yeah, I think trying to like weigh that the institution probably won't change and that it's maybe not very like meaningful to them, but that hoping that like maybe it has been for students or for

[00:31:35] other people that I've connected with or that maybe things will be a little bit easier for people after me. Yeah. Yeah. Can you share about the protest at commencement that you organized? Yeah. So it was inspired by a protest a couple of years ago

[00:31:52] at I think it was Seattle Pacific University, where some of the students, when they walked across the stage and sort of shaking the professor's hand or the dean's hand or whoever, they handed them a pride flag, like a small pride flag on a stick. So I saw that

[00:32:07] and I was like, all right. If it makes it to graduation at some point, like I want to do that. So I kind of, yeah, like posted on my public psychology page and was just like, this is what I'm going to do if anybody else wants to.

[00:32:21] And so there was another student who like handed the flag to the dean of our school and I handed mine to the president of our school because I didn't want to shake his hand. And some other people wore buttons that say like, keep Fuller clear.

[00:32:36] And like I asked my family to like wave pride flags when I like walked across the stage and some other people did that too. So really wanting to like operate in a way that wouldn't be disruptive to other people's celebration because it's not on them.

[00:32:53] This is Fuller's mess, not theirs. But then also that was frustrating because like the there's reels and stuff on my page. If anyone's interested watching them, you can go back and look at them. But I got like a very short email from the Dean

[00:33:09] of the School of Psychology and like also like, oh yeah, the president and I were both so glad that you did this in a dignified way. And to my memory, like nobody has reached out to me after I've done any of the other like protests or action.

[00:33:28] So it felt like they were really trying to reinforce like, oh, this is the way that we would like you to do this, which has made me think about planning something else before I'm actually gone because I'm like, we can't go out on that now

[00:33:41] that you were glad that this is how it went down. Yeah, flip some tables before you go. That's what Jesus did. Just following Jesus. That's right. Put some Bible verses on your protest about flipping tables, you know? Well, I love that. Thank you for

[00:33:58] thank you for doing that and for sharing it and encouraging other people to do that. I think that's I think that's so wonderful. What is your relationship like with your family now after coming out? Are they still religious? Has that been tricky to navigate?

[00:34:21] Has it been pretty smooth? They are so religious at least like my parents are. I have a lot of siblings, so everyone is kind of in different places. So I came out publicly four years ago. So especially at first, my parents didn't really say anything either way.

[00:34:41] It was kind of like, we love you. I was like. And and like so I think that was hard because it wasn't a negative response, but I kind of felt like I was waiting for the shoot the other shoot to drop. And then I was like, OK, well,

[00:34:58] like right now you don't know anything about like if I'm dating or who I'm dating. And they were all kind of scattered. So my immediate family is not nearby. So like almost half of them were here for my graduation. And that was the first time

[00:35:12] that most of them had visited me here. OK, so in my adult life, generally I've like gone and seen my family because there's so many of us which is all kind of gathered in one place. So, yeah, kind of just like lots of wondering of like,

[00:35:27] oh, if I had a partner and like, how would that go? Like, how would it go if you met them or like if someday I like got engaged or married, like, would you come and would you. So still not a lot of direct conversation. Things felt really nice

[00:35:44] when they were here. My girlfriend and I spent a lot of time with them and that went well. So it was nice to feel like she was included. Yeah, but yeah. So my family is kind of scattered. And so I spent a lot of time

[00:35:58] but a few years ago, my parents and my siblings are at home away from there and then with somewhere else. So I came out publicly in 2020. And so last year was the first time I had been back to Pennsylvania since I had come out

[00:36:11] and since like the pandemic had started and I went to or I was there for my sister's wedding. But there were so many people that I had like been in community with or had known for like 10 years that just wouldn't even make eye contact with me. Wow.

[00:36:29] And it kind of felt like the like don't associate with sinners. Like, oh, it would be bad if like we're seen with you or like would we be condoning your lifestyle or something? And just like, mm hmm. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to know that my life

[00:36:51] and my mental health are in a much better place than they've ever been in and that for some people, that's the factors that have led to that are not good. There's this artist there like artist name is Semmler and highly recommend queer grew up pastor's kid.

[00:37:08] And they released an EP I think it was in 2020 or something like a short EP. And right now they've released a few more, but they're working on a full length album right now. And they like re recorded one of the songs from that is called Jesus from Texas.

[00:37:24] And one of the lines in that song is like what a terrible honor it is that like my blessings are things you call sin. That's so powerful. Yeah. And like the things that have helped you be your healthiest, fullest self are things that they can't acknowledge

[00:37:46] as a good thing. Yeah. What do you think you would want to hear from your family or friends? Like what would feel so good to hear from them in terms of your queerness and being in a better place now in terms of your mental health and

[00:38:02] I think like inclusion always feels good, even if it's not like an explicit statement, but like here's the wedding invite and like also your girlfriend like hopefully she can come or things like that or it's been like really positive when even like adults

[00:38:20] that knew me when I was growing up have messaged me out of the blue and been like, you seem so happy now. Like I'm so happy for you. Like I'm so glad that you are this person and to kind of get that other and like people

[00:38:35] that I would not expect to be like messaging me like homeschool moms, like homeschool Christian moms from like my childhood friends, like to know that there are people who like have seen the shifts and they're like, oh, this is a positive thing.

[00:38:53] And like I'm glad that you're happy. I'm glad that you're doing better. So I think that kind of like, yes, things are better now and like I'm glad that you're in this place or just like being included and not wondering because for a lot of reasons

[00:39:07] I feel like I'm always like, am I included? Do you want me to be here? You know, my own insecurity. And then some of this other stuff, but like knowing that people are like, yes, I do want you to be here.

[00:39:17] Like I don't need to show up as yourself or bring your partner or do these things. Yeah, yeah. OK, what do you believe now in terms of religion and spirituality? Would you consider yourself a Christian today? What are your beliefs now? And I always say

[00:39:35] I won't hold you to them. So if they change, that's OK, too. Yeah, so I think especially the first couple years of grad school, I was like deconstructing hard with like being in seminary and being in a new place and being in California and all these things.

[00:39:50] So I was trying to figure out what I believed. And then at the same time was like understanding some of the like pieces of the screw velocity OCD and where that had come from and the need for certainty and all of these things.

[00:40:03] And so eventually got to a place where I was like, I don't know what I believe right now. This is not something I'm going to figure out in grad school. And like I can figure this out later. And so that was something that felt really big for me

[00:40:16] because I always think of the like, well, you could die right now. And like, what if you don't know? And that anxiety all the time of like I have to know, I have to figure it out. Yes. Yeah. I always heard if you walk out

[00:40:29] that door and you get hit by a car and you die, where are you going to go? Like, do you know? It's like, oh, yeah. So being able to be like, I don't know. And I can sit with the ambiguity of like I am definitely not

[00:40:41] an American evangelical anymore. I can tell you that much. All of. So to go a little bit political for a moment, but after Trump's trial and all the convictions, I saw some people who were like, oh, the evangelicals are going to come out and be like Jesus was

[00:41:01] like wrongfully convicted to. Yes, and they did. They did. Yeah. And so like it's been interesting to like see how my extended family's views have shifted. But like a family member is now just aggressively posting on all of the like Trump things that my relatives are posting,

[00:41:22] which is a little bit funny to me. But also I'm like, oh, yeah. Because like one of the comments was like, oh, you've gone insane. And I was like, oh, that's that's a fun scene. But so one of my family members posted one of these like Trump

[00:41:38] things about like Jesus being convicted. And I'm like, Jesus is a sinless God. Trump is a sinful man. And then a different family member was like, this is not a literal thing. This is figurative. This is about like the Jewish people

[00:41:56] didn't believe that he was the son of God and they convicted him. And like this is just like an analogy. And like we're still going to believe in him, even though like we believe he has a message or something. I'm just like, oh, my God.

[00:42:12] I cannot be part of anything that is like how many accounts we got 30 or 40 something like we had 34, 34 for 45. Is that right? So but like I think they had to have unanimous convictions on them. But then to be like, no, he didn't do anything wrong.

[00:42:31] All of that was incorrect. And like people believe that they're like false certainty gives them power and it's dangerous. Yes, and it is baffling to me. And I guess this it's baffling to me because I come from a place of privilege, I guess that like they will say

[00:42:54] that there's nothing wrong with the justice system when it comes to the way that we convict people of color. And then suddenly he's convicted and it's rigged and, you know, the system is messed up. And it's like, but you have not been able

[00:43:11] to admit that the system has messed up for so long until this man gets convicted unanimously for things he actually did. Like, it's just wild to me. And again, I realize that's like the fact that this is making me like what I can't believe it shows

[00:43:28] that I have not lived through the injustices of the the system, the way that many, many people have. And so I recognize that. And it's so fucked up. Like, what the fuck? And I think like what you're saying about the cherry picking, like the conversations

[00:43:43] after the last presidential election of like, oh, this is rigged. Like, but then it was people would be like, OK, well, if you say that Pennsylvania was rigged, like here are the Republican victories in here. Like, you don't want those. Right. I think that's been one

[00:43:58] of the most frustrating things, especially since like 2015 or 2016, like growing up in evangelicalism and then like being in a Christian school in Indiana during the 2016 presidential election. And then like moving forward is like how much I think the parties of power have shifted with both like evangelicalism

[00:44:21] and the Republican Party and these different things that like people that I thought were like loving and caring because those were the values they espoused. Right. Are voting for like a hateful man who has sexually assaulted people and exploited a lot of others. Right.

[00:44:39] And to just see like it feels like things shifted so quickly. And then, you know, I'm sure we've heard a lot of the same shit of like, well, millennials are too liberal and they want socialism and they want these things. And looking at the Bible

[00:44:55] and be like Jesus fed everyone. Right. It's like, yes, we do. And the reason is Jesus made sure everyone had health care. Right. Because, yeah, hey, you taught us that. Like I sometimes I'm like, I didn't. I don't hold on to any Christian beliefs,

[00:45:09] but but actually, like I kind of do. And like the part of me that wants socialism and health care for all, like that is what Jesus taught. And I don't identify super strongly with Jesus. Like, I think, you know, it's fine.

[00:45:24] Yeah, I think I kind of followed Jesus out of church. And then I was sort of like, actually, I don't know if this guy really does it for like, I don't feel like I need to hold on to him to believe these things anymore.

[00:45:36] But I think his teachings were and the way that we were supposed to to believe them and live them out is sort of what led me out of the church and into these very progressive ideas. And that's exactly what Christians and evangelicals

[00:45:51] say is so wrong about what I believe. And I just I can't understand how they pick and choose what is good and what is not. Even, you know, thinking about the comments on Facebook, like, well, it's an analogy. It's a metaphor. It's like says who?

[00:46:07] Well, I'm pretty sure the Bible says this is blasphemy. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Oh, it's just wild. OK, is there any are there any other pieces of your story that feel important to share about your deconstruction and what it felt like before I ask you our last question?

[00:46:29] Something that I talk about a lot, like both in my own personal story and I'm working with a lot of people who have had religious trauma or are like restructuring their belief systems is that like deconstruction is going to be destabilizing. It's not just that you're leaving church.

[00:46:47] It's not just that your identity is changing, but your entire belief system is changing. And I think a lot of people get hit harder than they expect when they're like, I can't be in this church anymore because the abuse here, you know, like whatever circumstance

[00:47:05] that are leading to that. And then they're like, oh, I'm outside of this. Why do I feel horrible and not know what to do? And if you think about, you know, whether you grew up in a religion or you chose that, but like that created your belief structure.

[00:47:23] And this is going to be my plug for Inside Out 2. You should go watch it. But we have this belief structure that tells us like what to do and why we do it. And a big part of that is like, OK, well,

[00:47:34] if Jesus is the son of God, God is the like the way, the truth in life. This is the way to get with God. Then I need to do X, Y, Z. I need to tell other people these things. And like that structures your whole life.

[00:47:48] That's why you exist. That's why you do what you do. Right. How you interact with other people. It informs all of these other parts of your life. So if you leave and you're like, I should feel better

[00:48:00] and I feel so much worse, that's probably a big part of it is because you're like, I don't know what to do anymore. Even if you were in an unhealthy situation or even if you're just like, it doesn't fit me anymore. That's going to be hard.

[00:48:13] Like full stop. It's just going to be hard. And it doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. Like, it can still be the right decision for you and be hard. And I'm not saying it is like it may or may not be for different people.

[00:48:25] I'm not trying to be a, you know, leave church evangelist. But but yeah, like you said, it's really destabilizing and can feel really hard and it can still be the right choice for you. And so that it's going to be hard

[00:48:41] and you have to reconstruct at some point because otherwise you're going to stay in that place of like, I don't know what I believe. I don't know who I am. I don't know what to do. And that can make you feel really stuck because you've lost your purpose.

[00:48:59] You don't know what to do. And so something that can be really helpful with that, either on your own or in community or in therapy, is to start like Google a list of values and look at them and circle like,

[00:49:13] OK, these are the things that are important to me. Like I want to be a caring person or, you know, I am a funny person or like this is how I want to exist in the world. And so whether that like reconstruction involves religion

[00:49:30] or spirituality or whatever belief system, but you have to be able to find something again so that you don't just stay there. And so the inside out part that I referenced is if you guys have seen the first movie, there's like the five emotions in Riley's mind.

[00:49:46] So then in the second movie, there's like four new emotions. She's a teenager now. And one of the other concepts that they talk about is Riley's belief system. And so Joy has very carefully curated this belief system

[00:50:01] of like when Riley feels her best and Riley does these great things, like those things go into the belief system and her belief at the beginning of the movie is that she's a good person. And so like all these things happen.

[00:50:13] And the belief system has gone through these big shifts and changes. And I think this fits really well with both like a psychological concept and with like the good and the bad that a lot of us grow up with in like evangelicalism

[00:50:29] and other high control religious groups is that in early psychology, there was a lot of like good object and bad object. Things are good or bad. Your parents, good or bad. This, you know, like a lot of one or the other.

[00:50:41] And so Winnicott came up with this theory for parents where he talked about being a good enough parent. And the idea is that if you try your best, you do like good things most of the time. Your kids are going to be OK. You're a good enough parent.

[00:50:59] You've done what you can. Taking accountability for the other stuff, whatever. Like you don't have to be perfect. And so by the end of the movie, like Joy kind of realizes, like I can't curate this anymore. Like Riley can't just be all good because if she is,

[00:51:16] she's like lost everything because she can't fit in this. And so then at the end of the movie, like all of these other memories like flood into her belief system and start like connecting to it. And so there's like, I'm a selfish person and I'm a jealous person

[00:51:34] and I'm a funny person and I'm a good person. Like all of these things she's able to look at. And I think that that can give us such a better view of ourselves and other people in the world to be able to be like,

[00:51:45] I am not one thing at all times and I'm not just good or bad, which for me, like that really connected with like the scrupulosity OCD of like I have to do the right thing or I'm bad or I'm going to hell or whatever outcome.

[00:52:02] And even if people's anxiety isn't quite to like where mine was, especially coming from high-control religious groups, people tend to have a lot of anxiety about like, what if I make the wrong choice or what if this isn't the right belief system?

[00:52:15] And so to think about like, okay, what do I want my values to be? What do I, how do I want to move forward and how can I also hold space for like being human? And like figuring that out in your own timeline

[00:52:30] with whatever cultural and you know, family and identity and all of these different things. Yeah, to hold space and just give ourselves time with that because you know, if you've existed in a religion all your life or for a good chunk of your life,

[00:52:46] like it's going to take time to work through that and then rebuild something. Yeah, absolutely. Well, my last question is always to offer some encouragement to people who are deconstructing and you kind of just did this. You read my mind.

[00:53:01] So I was going to have you offer some encouragement to people who are in that kind of destabilizing feeling. But again, you kind of already did, but is there anything that you want to add just to encourage people out there going through that really tricky,

[00:53:14] unstable feeling right now? Yeah, I think the additional thing I would say is find community. This might be like finding people who have the same experience as you, like being able to work through things together. This might just be like being in therapy

[00:53:30] where you can like process out loud. This might just be relationships with other people who did not share your experience and have like very like both my therapist and then my girlfriend. My girlfriend is Jewish. I don't know the spiritual background of my therapist,

[00:53:48] but I knew that she was not evangelical when she asked me if Fuller had rules about sexuality and I was like, oh, evangelicals have rules about everything. But sometimes it's nice to just have people who are like outside of the experience and you're like, oh, this thing

[00:54:05] and they're like, what the fuck? Yes. That's terrible. You're like, oh, yeah. It is. Yes, one of the most healing relationships for me has been my best friend who did not grow up religious and we became close sort of through the bulk of my deconstruction.

[00:54:29] And it was so helpful and healing for me to be like, and then I had rapture anxiety and she was like, what's the rapture? And I'm like, oh, well, let me tell you. And to explain the rapture to somebody who doesn't know what it is,

[00:54:42] you just realize how ridiculous it is. Yeah, so it's something very healing about being in community with people who did not grow up the way that we did. Yeah, so finding that support in whatever you need and whatever it looks like. Sometimes it's helpful to have people

[00:54:55] who are going through the same thing. Sometimes that can be really triggering and you need other spaces but it is a very isolating process especially if you left an active community because I've kind of drifted out of a couple different places before it really started.

[00:55:12] So not everyone is leaving a church at that moment but especially if you're leaving an active community, it can be very isolating to leave and then also to try and process everything. Yeah, I love that, thank you.

[00:55:26] I know in your bio we said we can find you on Instagram and I'll link that in the show notes. Is there any other place that you want me to include so people can connect with you? That's the main place right now. Perfect, great.

[00:55:38] Well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for all the advocacy work that you do. Thanks for being in this space. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:55:52] If you enjoyed this episode or any others, please like, follow or subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it, leave us a review so other people know what this show is all about. If you have any questions, comments or parts of your own experience

[00:56:04] you'd like to share on the podcast, you can email me at hello.decons at gmail.com and as always you can find me over on Instagram at hello underscore deconstructionists where together we are building community post evangelicalism. Huge thank you to Amy Azera

[00:56:20] for writing the theme song for this podcast and when the sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your head, I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you. Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us

[00:56:32] and of course to you for listening. See you next time. Gotta deconstruct, oh