24: "We Are So Magical" with Naveh Riles

[00:00:00] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:00:48] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most of all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy just as you are. My guest today is Neve Riles who uses sheher pronouns.

[00:01:07] Neve is a 27 year old from Arizona who's passionate about healing and helping others heal from religious trauma and today she's doing that by sharing her own experience here on the podcast. So welcome Neve and thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:22] Thank you for having me, I'm excited to talk about this. Yeah of course, so I'm so excited to hear your story. Can you give us a little background about your church experience? Yeah, so I pretty much grew up in the church.

[00:01:37] I quote unquote gave my life to God when I was five. I grew up in Christianity and that's kind of also the same age I was introduced to hell. I pretty much grew up in a church and it was all I knew.

[00:01:51] I had a church that I went to up until I think I was like eight or like nine years old and then I ended up going to another church around the age of like ten. And so that's kind of how it started.

[00:02:03] My mom mostly was more religious, so we would go to church every Sunday. My mom was part of like a children's ministry. She would kind of was the one that would take care of everything and my dad was a

[00:02:15] part of the video ministry so he would help with the video and audio for the services and so it was definitely interesting. You're definitely pretty involved and then that's kind of how it started for a while until I got old and then it shifted.

[00:02:31] Was it an evangelical church? Yeah. I started off as Baptist because I went to Baptist school and I'm not sure how I would describe it. I'm not sure if it would be like Pentecostal or not, but it was definitely evangelical,

[00:02:47] had some Pentecostal because I did grow up in a church that it was kind of diverse but the first church I grew up on I felt like had a lot of a bigger black community

[00:02:57] whereas the church I went to later, it kind of felt as if it was it was still diverse but it definitely was not as the black community. My community wasn't really as prevalent I would say in that other church. And the second one you went to, yeah.

[00:03:13] So like Baptist, a little Pentecostal. What were some of the main beliefs or core beliefs that really stuck with you that seemed to have an impact on you and your life? I know you mentioned hell, like that there was a time when you remember learning

[00:03:28] So I'm guessing that might be a big one for you. It definitely was because I remember when I quote unquote at five gave my life to God, which is very young by the way. Like it's still weird to think about how five year olds could really be able

[00:03:44] to cognitively like understand what type of decision that they're making. Like we can't care of ourselves at five, we're making this huge decision. Right. Five year olds don't know what like five minutes is. They certainly don't know what eternity is, you know.

[00:03:59] When I think about that, I'm just like, that's really wild when I think about it. And I realized when I think about that moment, it terrified me. And I realized like I gave my life to God out of fear, not because of actual like love for God.

[00:04:16] It was because I didn't want to go to hell and I didn't want to like burn and be tormented for all eternity. So that's really what I realized is why I did it and how that impacted me later.

[00:04:27] Like, I think it kind of affected like my ability to sleep because I think sometimes like I went like, okay, I need to make sure I pray. Like, I don't want to possibly like die in my sleep and then wake up, wake up in hell or whatever.

[00:04:39] And so it definitely had a very traumatizing impact on me. I think another thing was same sex relationships, the homosexuality that was obviously, you know, from where I was being taught was complete no-no. It was wrong. What's interesting is I now identify as bisexual.

[00:04:59] And so I felt like that was able to really be explored and it felt like I couldn't find times to even connect with other people who are really amazing humans. But because of, you know, their sexuality, oh, there's something wrong with them and I can't associate with them.

[00:05:19] Like that's kind of how it was made to seem like. Those are two really big things. Purity culture. Yeah. We both take a deep breath. Yeah, that was a whole other thing. Like you have to save yourself before marriage and there was a whole like event we did.

[00:05:38] Like we basically are like pledging ourselves to save ourselves for our husband and all these little girls were like dressing white and we're basically pledging ourselves. I'm just like, well, what if I don't end up wanting to be married?

[00:05:51] What if I end up wanting to be with a woman? Like it's like all those other parts of it aren't being taken into consideration and for children, a child's sexuality should be such a focus for adults.

[00:06:07] And I think that when I think about that, it just felt very in a way kind of violating. So that was really weird and it made me feel shameful. It made me feel like I couldn't embrace my sexuality or have any like

[00:06:22] thoughts or things like that because it made to seem like sex was such like a bad thing. So those are really big things that stick out for me for what I was taught and really impacted me. Yeah, and I'm thinking about purity culture.

[00:06:37] Purity culture is such a shit show in itself. But on top of that, to be a bisexual person navigating that adds another layer of complexity. Right, because my discovery of that happened later. I kind of started having thoughts or like kind of wondering about it

[00:06:57] like in my 20s. And I think I officially came out, I think like last year, I just started embracing it and it feels good. So it's a new thing. I'm still kind of like navigating that.

[00:07:08] But being able to feel free enough to even if I never am in a relationship with a woman, even if that never happens, being able to be free about my attraction and how I feel is very liberating. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, congratulations. It's new and exciting.

[00:07:26] And yeah, congratulations on embracing that and living into your sexuality. When did you start to shift out of Christianity and what did that look like? Hmm. I think I would say it kind of started when I went off to college

[00:07:43] because even though it was a Baptist school, anybody of any different type of background could come to the school. And I think what I was studying, because I studied sociology and then I got my bachelor's in sociology and then my master's in social work.

[00:07:57] So I had a real focus on society and helping people. And so I think I just really started to question things around that time that I wasn't able to do when I was younger because I was homeschooled since I was in fourth grade.

[00:08:13] So I didn't really have access to a lot of information. I wasn't in a public school, so I didn't get to meet different types of people and hear different ideas and opinions.

[00:08:23] So I think I would say it started in college and then it led me to kind of like following people in the deconstruction space after. And that's kind of how I started questioning and moving in the deconstruction, leaving Christianity space. Mm hmm.

[00:08:41] I feel like social work and sociology are like as you're learning them, there's just no way you can stay in Christianity. Right? Like the way that the church lives out these ideas, it just doesn't line up with what you're learning. Right.

[00:08:57] And how I want to be as a human, how I want to function in society and how I want to be towards humanity, it didn't sit well with me. I'm just like, no, I can't hold these very harmful

[00:09:10] ideas that are essentially believed to humanizing and try to be in this type of position where I'm supposed to be helping people. Like I'd be in this type of position where I have such a huge responsibility on

[00:09:23] caring and helping people, but I'm holding these ideas that are basically taking away their humanity. Yeah, that didn't sit right with me. I'm like, I need to step away. Mm hmm. Yeah. Was college your first time being in a bigger school?

[00:09:40] Like were you homeschooled all through high school? Yes, I was homeschooled all through high school. So since I think it was around like fourth grade, pretty much all through the rest of that time, high school until I went to college, I was homeschooled.

[00:09:54] I did go to an elementary school before, but I didn't get that high school experience and so when I went to college, it was a huge culture shock because it was just me and my two siblings and my mom was my teacher.

[00:10:07] So that's all I was used to every day. So then I get to school and I'm just like, oh my gosh, there's so many humans. So it was a lot and I loved it because I was able to be around other

[00:10:17] people, but I do wish that I still was able to really socialize a lot more in my homeschooling time period because I really didn't get that. I didn't even really walk when I graduated high school. I kind of just graduated.

[00:10:35] So that was my first time being able to walk too. So that was a cool experience, but yeah, that was really the first time I went to really big school around different types of people being introduced to different ideas and I was really grateful for it.

[00:10:51] Yeah, I think a lot of people in the evangelical community are homeschooled for religious reasons and then going off to college is such a big culture shock and can be really overwhelming, especially if it's a public college, but even a Christian college from a homeschool

[00:11:07] experience is still just like so different than what you came from. Right. Being around like thousands of students from me and my two siblings, yeah, it was a lot. So what were some of the beliefs that you started to pull apart in your deconstruction?

[00:11:24] Maybe things that came up in your sociology classes, maybe things that just came up as you were interacting with more people, but what were some of the beliefs that you started to deconstruct? Yeah, purity culture was definitely something that I really started to process.

[00:11:40] I really started understanding how it really is rooted in control of women's bodies. Obviously men are affected as well, but I think we're affected in different ways when it comes to purity culture, like how it's taught to us, I would say.

[00:11:55] So I definitely started letting go of some of those ideas and that shame that came with those thoughts about, I have to see myself before marriage and there's something wrong with me. And like if that my only thing that's valuable about myself is my virginity.

[00:12:09] And if I don't have that, then I'm not worth anything and no person's going to want me. So that was one thing. Homosexuality or same sex relationships, another thing I was also deconstructing as well and thinking differently about.

[00:12:23] I was like, if I really love somebody, if somebody makes somebody is happy, why am I so concerned about who they're with? I just started thinking about that and understanding probably how different things in the Bible have different translations or were misinterpreted.

[00:12:40] And maybe what we're believing about what was said about homosexuality isn't really true. You know what I mean? And just from a human standpoint, just being accepting of people and not trying to push how, it's not okay to try to push what I

[00:12:57] want other people because I think it takes away autonomy and to live your life the way that you want. And so that's kind of what I started, two really big things I started deconstructing. What did your deconstruction feel like? Was it lonely? Was it liberating?

[00:13:15] Was it freeing, overwhelming? Maybe all of those things, but I think it can feel different for everybody. Yeah, what did it feel like for you? It was a lot of different emotions. I think at first because I was just so fascinated by everything, I just

[00:13:29] wanted to really hear so many different perspectives. I think I did feel a little bit overwhelmed, but it felt liberating because the things that caused me a lot of fear and stress and anxiety, I was like, oh wow, it made me feel more free to really embrace my

[00:13:45] own humanity. To be honest, I feel like Christianity can strip that away from me because of all the rules and regulations about how you're supposed to live and be. I felt like I couldn't really embrace the fullness of my humanity

[00:13:58] and make mistakes and that I couldn't have my own morals and values and find out what's important to me. So I think that was really helpful in being feeling really liberated. And it didn't feel as lonely when I saw that there were a lot of other

[00:14:14] people too that were also having these thought processes and was deconstructing as well. It didn't feel as lonely, but definitely in the beginning with my family, it felt like that. But overall, knowing that there were other people, I was like,

[00:14:30] okay, so I'm not the only one that's questioning. There's other people that are out there trying to heal from religious trauma and deconstruct the really harmful things that we were taught. So it felt like there was a community out there, which was really nice.

[00:14:46] How did you get connected with that community? How did it start to feel like rather than like you're looking at it, like you're part of it? I think that was still a little bit more of a struggle.

[00:14:57] I think what was great is I was able to meet two really wonderful ladies in a group dealing with religious trauma. And we were able to stay connected and have conversations. And that was really amazing because she understands what I'm

[00:15:16] feeling and what I'm questioning until she gets it. And so it was nice being able to be a part of that group, even for as long as it was, because they allowed me to meet really awesome people that, you know, we can be there for

[00:15:29] each other and have conversations. So that was nice. It allowed me to kind of have some people in my corner, even if they live in another state. That's something that I definitely want to focus on more is

[00:15:39] we build a community and finding a way to really like, you know, have that and to make a difference in this space. Did you feel a sense of loss in terms of community in leaving the church? Like, did you feel like you lost your church community

[00:15:56] or your family community or friends? Absolutely. I definitely feel like I lost a church community. It wasn't as hard because I kind of stopped going to church when I started going to college because I just didn't end up having time because I was just focusing on my classes.

[00:16:12] And that was just kind of my focus. It does kind of feel lonely as like not having a community because I have people that are still definitely in the church and because some things that are talked about are kind of triggering for me, I

[00:16:27] definitely stay away from it. What's hard because I realize I'm in a different space and we see things differently. And so I know that that relationship won't be able to really continue. And I think with my family, my mom, even though I've

[00:16:42] asked her, you know, to be understanding of where I am at, she still kind of like sends me videos and things that she wants me to watch that essentially are still kind of related to that and are triggering for me. And so my mom's still heavily into it.

[00:16:57] So I think my relationship with my mom is definitely and my dad as well is definitely different because I'm in a different space. And so that is kind of hard because I, you know, was really close with my mom growing up.

[00:17:09] I kind of was like a mini me for her. I looked like her and I act like her and stuff. So that still really hurts because I had that close relationship with her. But I'm realizing that, you know, she's always

[00:17:22] going to be my mom, but I can love her from afar. I will never not have love for her, but I have to do what's best for my mental health and for just in different spaces. And that's okay. You know, I would love to have that relationship,

[00:17:35] but I can't allow myself to continue to be triggered to try to keep that relationship because unfortunately because she kind of was the one that was teaching us all this was weird is like family trauma in this sense is kind of associated with my religious trauma.

[00:17:52] So it's hard for me to separate the two. And so I think that's why my mom and I's relationship is in such an awkward space right now. So that's hard, but it is liberating to be able to kind of do my own thing. It feels good. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:18:06] That makes so much sense that the family trauma and religious trauma kind of overlap, especially because of the homeschool piece and getting a lot of those teachings from your mom. I think family relationships can be really hard for people coming out of religious spaces,

[00:18:23] especially if parents don't seem to understand where you're at in this new space. What are some ways that you have set boundaries for yourself to be able to have a relationship that works for you without feeling triggered all the time?

[00:18:38] I think that's something I'm still sort of navigating. I'm in another state for my parents, actually. They're in California. I'm in Arizona. So I think that actually helps in the sense that I'm in my own space, but I limit how much I text them

[00:18:55] because I know that if I give even an inch to my mom, she'll probably be sending me things or I don't really answer phone calls. I'll text them and I'll say, hey, I'm doing fine. I hope you're doing well. But I keep it brief.

[00:19:10] Like I don't try to have a long conversation because I know what's most likely going to lead into. So that's kind of what I do to try to protect myself in my mental health. I just still somewhat stay connected,

[00:19:23] but I definitely limit how much I talk to them because I know particularly with my mom, it's going to be triggering what it's going to lead to, which is sad because I feel like that's kind of what it feels like that's what my whole entire relationship

[00:19:38] with my mom has kind of amounted to. Because she's so heavily into it, I feel like that seems like what all of our relationship is about. I care about your eternal soul and I want to make sure that you're okay. I feel like that's her only concern.

[00:19:53] So it feels like we can't have just a regular normal mother-daughter relationship and conversation, which sucks. Yeah, absolutely. I feel for you and everyone out there that has these strained relationships with families. It just, I know it can be so tricky to navigate and to figure out.

[00:20:14] I know you said that when you were a kid, it seemed like hell was this really big fear for you and that was really kind of part of the reason that you were saved as out of fear. And you would kind of wake up like,

[00:20:27] or go to sleep worried that you would wake up in hell. Have you still had fear of hell? Has that disappeared a little bit or what's that like? It's gotten better. What's interesting is like I'm able to actually really like sleep like peacefully now

[00:20:41] and not think about it. But I'll have random times where I have a thought in my head of like, well what if hell is real? Do I still have that little bit of anxiety about the afterlife? But I'm now actually like sleep peacefully and not worry about that.

[00:20:58] Like I no longer feel as if like, oh I have to pray every night to make sure I ask God to forgive me for my sins. I no longer possibly wake up in a panic or like almost a sense of relief

[00:21:08] because I'm like, oh thank God I didn't like die in my sleep and I'm glad I got a chance to pray and ask to be forgiven of my sins. Like if I happen to forget to finish praying or something. So it's like, it just sucks that

[00:21:21] there's so many people out there especially if they grew up in that and that was their whole childhood that they have to deal with those type of emotions. Like children should be able to just enjoy themselves having normal childhood and not have to deal with anxiety about dying

[00:21:39] and being tortured for all of eternity. It's so wild to me that there's parents that don't really, I guess really understand for those parents that are believe in Christianity who don't really understand how hard-fought that can be for the children and the damage that that can do

[00:21:55] and now it can still affect them even in adulthood. So it's definitely gotten better which I'm very grateful for. Yeah, hell was such a big one for me. So I feel like I always ask about that. Like a podcast that's like so what do you think about hell?

[00:22:12] But yeah, it was huge. Yeah, it's such a focus and it definitely stuck with me even after I stopped believing in hell. It was something that still came up in these ways that I'm like, wow, but I don't believe in it but I still like had a dream

[00:22:27] that I'm burning in hell forever. It just takes a while to let go of it and sometimes I wonder if I'll ever be able to like fully let go of it because it has been so ingrained.

[00:22:39] I feel like I'm gonna have that in the back of my mind now which really sucks, especially for other people too that are dealing with religious trauma but I'm glad that people can heal and get to a place where we actually can live in peace

[00:22:54] and that it not be so consuming. So I'm very grateful for that. Yeah, what are some ways that you have healed from this a little bit? What are some ways that you have worked through this and let go of the whether the hell trauma

[00:23:11] or other ways that this trauma has shown up in your life? Yeah, I went to therapy for over a year to kind of start processing that which was been really nice. Being able to be more open about it has been very healing.

[00:23:26] I think instead of feeling ashamed to talk about it or feeling as if like religious trauma isn't a valid thing, I validate myself in that and I'm just open about it and it's been very healing talking about it. Following different pages that talk about deconstruction

[00:23:45] and hearing different perspectives that are very healing for me has been very helpful and I think also just staying away from the church because I know like I would never be able to go back into that space and so staying away from that,

[00:24:01] being careful about like the pages that I followed that could possibly be triggering for me, trying to find a sense of humor in things like if there's anything that does relate to Christianity, I find pages that I guess in some way

[00:24:13] like make fun of it in some way or make light of it because it actually eases something for me because I open it and so it eases something for me and so that's what's helped me heal from my religious trauma at least start that journey of healing.

[00:24:30] Yeah, I feel like you have such a good awareness of yourself and what triggers you and what's kind of helpful to look at whether it's for social media or for conversations with your parents, it sounds like you have such a steady awareness of yourself

[00:24:46] and what's good for you and that can be so tricky to find after leaving religion so good job on all the work that you did to get there I'm sure. It's hard to find your identity after that because your identity is so wrapped up in this belief system

[00:25:03] you don't really have the space to really acknowledge like and find out who you are, what you want in life. Something that I'm also trying to work on is I have people-pleasing tendencies which I know can somewhat stem from probably that experience as well

[00:25:17] and so I think I'm really learning to be able to be okay with saying no it's like I don't want to do something being okay with saying that I don't want to do it or I don't feel comfortable doing it

[00:25:29] and realizing that I have to take care of myself first and the longest relationship I'll ever have in my life is with myself and if I'm not happy with who I am it's not going to be a good life for me

[00:25:42] you know I need to be okay with who I am and be confident who I am in my choices and not worry so much about what my parents are going to think or what my peers are going to think about my beliefs

[00:25:56] or how I want to live my life because life is really too short and I you know lived so much of my life doing that it's like oh I just want to make you happy I don't want to upset anybody like I was a failure of conflict

[00:26:09] like I don't want to upset anybody I don't want to because I'm like oh you're being too sensitive and all these other things and so I'm learning to embrace my emotions be okay with saying no and putting myself first

[00:26:23] and being confident in what I decide to do with my life and not feel as if I have to depend on other people to make those choices for me because I think I'm learning to trust myself because we've told in the Bible too of like

[00:26:35] oh your heart is desperately wicked you know who can know it and like being constantly told that you learn to always have to ask for validation from other people and trust what it is that we know for ourselves of what we know is right for us

[00:26:52] and so I think I'm learning from that as well and trying to get better I just like no I know what's right for me and I'm going to trust that if I feel right about something I'm going to go for it

[00:27:04] I'm not going to allow anybody to cause me to question that when I know for sure this is the right decision for me so that's yeah I'll keep going a little bit but that's something that I've really been processing to us I'm getting older

[00:27:17] yeah absolutely all of that is great and I was thinking as you were saying that that a huge piece for me of kind of embracing my own experience and you know learning to trust myself has been telling my story and yeah you know starting my hello deconstructionist Instagram

[00:27:35] and then eventually the podcast and you had said something earlier about sharing your story too and being more vocal about it and I think it's not only helpful for other people but it has also been helpful for me to share it

[00:27:48] and helped me to own it a little bit more and feel like I know myself a little bit better right that feeling of like being able to know yourself more where you can feel within yourself that you're getting more sure who you are

[00:28:02] and you're not as questioning as much and you're not looking for validation as much it feels so liberating and so it's a hard but beautiful journey yeah absolutely I know something that you had said that you wanted to talk about was the connection between black spirituality and slavery

[00:28:29] and its connection to religious trauma yeah so can you talk a little bit about that yeah I think something that I think about a lot is as a black woman Christianity was a religion that was used to justify slavery and many other horrible atrocities

[00:28:48] and so I just have so many mixed emotions regarding Christianity just simply for that but I think what didn't help is like when COVID happened and the protests were going on the way the responses were especially from people that were Christians

[00:29:07] that the Christians that were in the church it was really upsetting to me because instead of people really having a hard and strong compassion they were more concerned about buildings and property and things being destroyed and not my people being murdered on the screen

[00:29:27] and so it just felt like there is not a lot of support from the church regarding racism and I feel like it's also not really addressed in the church I feel like it's a very politically correct for lack of a better word

[00:29:43] PC very nice not really addressing the issue type of answer because they'll say things like oh you know we're just the world is in a very hard time right now or however they word it but they won't be upfront calling out racism

[00:30:00] so that's hard for me as a black woman because you know we're supposed to be quote-unquote all welcome in the church and children of God yet a part of God's children are being harmed and murdered and have been for 400 plus years

[00:30:15] and that's not being addressed in the way that it should you know there's not really a lot of care there and so I think that played a factor as well in being not really feeling safe in the church

[00:30:28] so I think that the church definitely needs to do better in that sense of not associating things with just oh this is just a heart issue you know oh it's a sin I'm like no like it's not just a sin issue

[00:30:42] it is a human problem that needs to be addressed and so for some reason just feels like the church is so uncomfortable about it and they'll mention things about unity and we need to get together and all these things but how can you preach about unity

[00:30:59] but then not do anything to actually really bring people together and make part of the church because people are considered to be considered the church like if we can't feel safe in our identity as black people how are we supposed to feel safe in an environment

[00:31:20] in a church that is supposed to be a safe environment they always say like the church is like oh it's a place for the sick and everybody is welcome everybody can get healing but it doesn't really feel like a safe space and so that played a big factor

[00:31:37] and that's been a challenge of like being a black woman and then dealing with spirituality yeah I think the church is so quick to say well it's the people that are you know making bad decisions but that's it you know like we're not actually racist

[00:31:54] but they will not acknowledge the systems that are in place that white people we have built and a lot of it like in these religious systems too or backed by religious systems and they just will not own that and acknowledge that

[00:32:12] and suddenly these churches that are like happy to take black and white stances on you know something is good or bad or you know homosexuality is bad and being straight is the only way suddenly everything is very gray and well it's very complicated

[00:32:27] and you know it's hard to figure out exactly what it is it's like no no no nope one of these is wrong and it's racism I'm so happy you said that because you worded it so perfectly

[00:32:39] right the church has a tendency to be so like this is right this is wrong with other things but as soon as you want to talk about race and address and call out racism now it's more complicated now oh we can't have a conversation you know

[00:32:55] oh people feel uncomfortable and I always say it must be nice to be able to just feel uncomfortable and not actually have to live it every day and worry about feeling unsafe and like not knowing like if I go somewhere

[00:33:12] am I going to be murdered because of the color of my skin if I happen to be Samara at the wrong time you know what I mean we've seen things reported of a group of black people being shot at like a market

[00:33:27] at a parade or you know like it's scary and so it's frustrating that they made the topic of racism so and race so complicated when it really isn't so that's definitely frustrating and I don't think it's going to allow people who want to be in the church

[00:33:47] black individuals who want to be in the church feel safe they're not going to want to go back to church because they don't feel as if they are seen and validated in their black identity because whenever it's not acknowledged it's like okay you don't see me

[00:34:02] so I'm not valued so that's hard yeah I love what you said about uncomfortable versus unsafe it's like the church doesn't want to have the uncomfortable conversations and therefore is accepting this unsafeness why do you say that

[00:34:20] this is willing to accept that black people are unsafe in this country and they're willing to accept that to avoid an uncomfortable conversation yeah it's just it's frustrating like let's have this conversation that's how it can start and acknowledge things that have better understandings

[00:34:40] I think too something you said about like I don't remember something you said at the end it reminded me of something I was thinking about earlier which is like there's a difference between saying you're not allowed in this space

[00:34:52] and I think churches feel like oh well everybody's welcome here right but then the way that that actually plays out is but here's how we do it and you're welcome to join us or like you don't really fit in

[00:35:05] and joining us in evangelical spaces is a very white evangelical space and so to join means you have to give up or let go of some piece of yourself or separate some sense of yourself as a black woman to be able to join these white spaces

[00:35:24] and the church doesn't seem to recognize that like being welcomed and accepted is not the same as like well everybody can come join our practices you know but not being open to other people's experiences and ideas and listening that's that's not really welcoming people

[00:35:39] right it's almost as if we're just being tolerated like we're in the space but we're not really in it like we're physically there but we're not really welcoming and it feels yeah it feels like we're just being tolerated

[00:35:54] I love that you said it because that's exactly kind of how it feels like okay you can be here but if you don't do what we want you to do or if you fall in line with that then you can't really be a part of this

[00:36:06] or you can just leave that's kind of how it feels do you feel like your church experience was more white evangelical spaces and then you kind of embraced your own black spirituality later or do you feel like this was always something that you

[00:36:23] recognized as not kind of fitting in I don't know what was that journey like for you I think as I got older it's something that I started being more aware of the church I grew up in was I would say more of like a black church

[00:36:38] but the other churches I went to was it was diverse it was more like white and Hispanic so that's kind of what that population was like in the church so I think I kind of just started becoming more aware of it

[00:36:52] like I think I just as I became more into with my own black identity I think I just became more aware of like okay wow because like it was kind of this when I was younger like in other spaces like at my school and stuff

[00:37:06] like when I went to college so I kind of was aware of that like in my church as well but definitely as I got older I became more aware of that and then I kind of started becoming more into my own spirituality

[00:37:19] and embracing what that looks like for me as a black woman kind of like later as I got older Mm-hmm what kinds of connections do you feel like this has to your own religious trauma or maybe just to religious trauma in general you know maybe for you specifically

[00:37:34] but maybe just ways that you could see this show up for people in other ways too Yeah I definitely would say feeling not seen feeling as if we're just we're not seen or heard and I think having this continuous thing of not being seen or heard

[00:37:51] and your identity being valued and celebrated in the church can feed into the trauma because not feeling seen in who you are it just makes you feel low and it's something that I've already experienced going as a little black girl

[00:38:08] like not really seeing myself represented in certain spaces you know whether it's in the fashion area or entertainment industry I did really see a lot of dark-skinned black women that looked like me on the screen and so I didn't really see that in the church either

[00:38:23] like in leadership positions or different things like that you know so it just you didn't feel valued or seen and the way religion is used to kind of justify certain things or to explain away things instead of really having a conversation feeds into that as well

[00:38:44] People can be made to feel as if we have to choose our spirituality over our black identity and so that can be traumatic because it's like I'm so proud and love being a black woman I just think we're so magical

[00:38:59] and so it's hard to feel like I can't embrace the fullness of my black identity to be accepted in the spiritual space and that's really traumatizing to feel like you have to choose between the two and that's sometimes kind of how it feels

[00:39:15] and not just for my community but you know for other people of color and people of other identities that are not really represented or seen in the church they can also feel as if I have to choose between the two

[00:39:28] even other people that are part of the LGBTQIA plus community you know they could feel as if like they can't be spiritual and have their identity you know so I think that's kind of how it's affected me

[00:39:40] as a black woman and other people in the black community as well Yeah, yeah thank you so much for sharing There's already rhetoric in the church about making yourself less and viewing yourself as less than

[00:39:55] and so that layered on top of all of the social and systemic things that are happening with racism it makes it this kind of compounding compounding problem I guess Yeah, yeah I definitely see that like it's already difficult for us to find our identity just from religious trauma

[00:40:17] and so as a black person or a person of color trying to embrace that because that's we've already been kind of stripped from that anyway throughout we weren't really able to be connected to our culture keep our native language

[00:40:32] be connected with our own cultural foods and how we dress our music our you know all that was taken our names were taken being stripped from that and then trying to take some of that back in a way but then being in a spiritual space

[00:40:51] where you're not really being celebrated and you're feeling as if that you can't be too black you can be black and be that but you can't you know as I like to say blackity black you know sometimes you can't do that and so that's hard

[00:41:08] and so it's just really hard to feel like if you have to choose that especially for a group of people that have already been stripped of their identity being made to continue to feel as if we can't embrace that is really really hard

[00:41:22] especially when we're trying so hard to learn about ourselves like there's so much that we as black people you know haven't got a chance to really learn about our history because that was really hidden I know a white walk and so trying to relearn that

[00:41:36] because that's painful too of like man like all these things that we wish we knew were able to really experience we don't really have that opportunity like I still don't really know I have an idea where I'm from but I still don't really know deeply

[00:41:51] like I don't know what tribe I'm from like other people able to connect themselves like oh I know what my grandfather's from he did this and that I'm like I don't know that I know that my ancestors obviously were enslaved and I know that I'm mostly Nigerian

[00:42:05] and that's where some of my roots a lot of it comes from but it's like I don't really know who I am and my roots because that opportunity was taken from me you know and my people for obvious reasons and so yeah it's hard

[00:42:21] identity is such a huge part of who we are and how we stay grounded in that and so we shouldn't be stripped of that and the church really does a lot of harm cause people to not feel safe enough to be in the fullness of their humanity

[00:42:36] and their identity yeah absolutely you had talked earlier about the church kind of stripping you of your humanity in general and I'm wondering what are some ways that you embrace the fullness of your humanity now and kind of where are you in terms of beliefs now

[00:42:56] and kind of living your as your fullest self I love that question I think for me the biggest thing is being okay with making mistakes I think I had a really hard time with trying to be perfect and everything and I know that kind of sense

[00:43:13] like I want to be perfect before God I don't want to disappoint God and you know I want to be a perfect like witness and example and all these things and so I think it plays into trying to be perfect like I don't want to make any mistakes

[00:43:27] and I want to make everybody happy I don't want to come off as if I don't know what I'm doing or that I'm like a bad person or things like that and so I feel like I didn't have the freedom to be human and make mistakes

[00:43:43] and so I think being able to really be at a point now in my life where I fully embrace that and I'm just like if I make a mistake at work I'm like well I'm trying again tomorrow I've gotten to that point where

[00:43:58] I'm able to like really let go of that and like be okay with the fact that I'm not going to be able to get to everything I'm not going to do everything perfect really just being able to just be imperfect and not always say the right things

[00:44:13] because I was a whole other thing I would think back on interactions I've had with people like oh my god did I say something weird like are they going to think I'm awkward like oh my god did I make a weird face every little thing that I did

[00:44:25] I would regret and probably part ways because my anxiety which I'm trying to work on aren't we all we're all wait this world is going oh my goodness so just being okay with not being perfect being able to make mistakes not being so concerned about every little thing

[00:44:45] that I say or do and not caring about I guess like what other people think about me because I think that was something that I was also really concerned about it's like other people's view of me and I think now I'm at a point like yes it's important

[00:45:01] to get other perspectives of people because they can give us insight into ourselves but not caring so much about that to put where now I don't love myself and I'm so concerned about their opinion that now everything you know I'm just like

[00:45:16] oh I don't want to upset them so I'm like let me or are they mad at me or does this person like me or do they not like me now I'm just like I am who I am and I'm gonna leave it

[00:45:29] and I think it is coming with age as I'm getting older because I'm 27 now and by the way I'm really excited for my 30th so I'm just like oh baby I can't wait so I think it's coming with age too where you just you care less

[00:45:41] you get more settled in yourself and so I think for me that's really how I'm trying to embrace my humanity not just for my religious trauma also as a black woman because that plays into like at work I feel like I have to do everything right

[00:45:56] I feel like I have eyes on me in a way and like I feel like if I make a mistake it's like the whole world is ending but if somebody else does it it's not a big issue and so I think I feel stressed about that

[00:46:09] but now I'm just like no I'm like I'm not going to allow you to dehumanize me and make me feel as if like I have to do everything the way that you want it and like oh I'm now a horrible person or I'm a horrible employee

[00:46:23] because I made a mistake and not allowing that to affect me or get me down like I know I'm not going to get to everything I know I'm not going to always say the right things or do everything correctly or get to things on time or you know

[00:46:38] and so I'm just like it's okay other people also are not able to do that either that just comes with being human you know we're trying to juggle so many different things and I try to remind other people of that too I'm like bro you're one person

[00:46:52] you're not going to be able to be this perfect person that just has it all together and so I'm just embraced in being a hot mess and I love that I heard a colleague once I'm a teacher so it was another teacher colleague of mine

[00:47:10] and he asked a student did you have a good day or a try again tomorrow day and I love it so much and I've like thought about it many times for myself like well you know it was a try again tomorrow kind of day and that's okay

[00:47:23] I love that yes because I still think because things like oh my whole day is human now because it is one bad thing happened I'm just like something it didn't work out today okay I'm gonna just try it again tomorrow we'll try again tomorrow I love that

[00:47:39] yes okay to end I like to have guests offer some kind of encouragement to deconstructing people out there who are similar to themselves and could you offer encouragement maybe especially for black women who are finding their way out of church and learning to embrace their black spirituality

[00:47:59] and their full wonderful beautiful magical black selves yes oh yes I would say remember the strength of our ancestors and the beauty of our ancestors lies within us yes we have their trauma but we also have their joy and their strength and their resilience and their love

[00:48:25] and even though this journey is hard being a spiritual person or stepping away from that and also being black women we are amazing and have overcome so much that we are able to do this as well we are able to heal from religious trauma

[00:48:45] and it can feel lonely but know that you are not alone and there are so many other people out there too that look like us that have the exact same feelings and are also trying to heal and that we can do this together

[00:49:00] and that you can always reach out to people for that support I know it might seem like there's not a lot of us in this space but we are here and we are proud and we are always here to love one and support each other

[00:49:16] but we can do this it's a hard process we didn't deserve what we went through but we can take back that power and control of our lives and our own healing and that in and of itself is a beautiful thing

[00:49:30] and I'm proud of us for taking that step and I just encourage us just to keep doing it no matter how hard it gets just keep pushing Amazing, thank you so much Thank you for sharing your story here and for taking time to be on the podcast

[00:49:46] Yes, thank you so much I loved it Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists If you enjoyed this episode or any others please like, follow, or subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it leave us a review

[00:50:00] so other people know what this show is all about If you have any questions, comments, or parts of your own experience you'd like to share on the podcast you can email me at hello.dcons at gmail.com and as always you can find me over on Instagram

[00:50:14] at hello underscore deconstructionists where together we are building community post evangelicalism Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast and when this sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your head I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community

[00:50:29] that's here with you Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us and of course to you for listening See you next time!