22: A New Kansas with Jennifer Knapp

[00:00:01] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:00:38] share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's

[00:00:42] been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:00:48] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and

[00:00:51] most of all that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:00:54] You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:01:03] My guest today is Jennifer Knapp who is a Grammy nominated singer-songwriter, author,

[00:01:09] speaker, and advocate.

[00:01:11] In her rich musical career she has earned four dev awards and two Grammy nominations.

[00:01:16] With a considerable fan base and critical and commercial success, Knapp walked away

[00:01:20] from music in 2002 at the height of her career.

[00:01:24] After a seven-year hiatus she returned in 2010 with a renewed passion for music.

[00:01:29] As the first major artist in the Christian music world to speak openly about LGBTQ

[00:01:34] identity, her unique position created opportunities for national dialogue.

[00:01:38] In 2012, Knapp founded the non-profit organization Inside Out Faith through which

[00:01:43] she continues to speak and perform nationally as an advocate for LGBTQ and faith issues.

[00:01:49] And a true renaissance woman, Knapp recently completed a master's degree in theological

[00:01:54] studies at Vanderbilt Divinity School.

[00:01:56] So welcome Jennifer, thank you for being here.

[00:01:59] This bio does almost nothing to talk about the true badass that you are in this space.

[00:02:05] So thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:07] Well that's very kind of you to say.

[00:02:09] I think it goes over the top when it says a true renaissance woman.

[00:02:13] I don't know who wrote that.

[00:02:15] I don't know but I loved it.

[00:02:16] I picked and chose pieces of your bio to put in and was like, fuck yeah, true renaissance woman.

[00:02:22] Well I suppose that when you're a woman of a certain age, it's a compliment.

[00:02:26] So when did you get your master's degree in theological studies?

[00:02:30] Yeah, right before the pandemic actually.

[00:02:34] So between 2017 and 2019, I got off the road and yeah, I got my master's degree.

[00:02:41] And yeah, it was really fun to be able to do that but it was really nuts too

[00:02:46] because I put out a record right in the middle of it.

[00:02:48] And yeah, it wasn't for the faint of heart but I really did enjoy it.

[00:02:52] And it was one of the things that I chose to do actually more like as an investment

[00:02:57] in the LGBTQ plus conversation inside of faith community because I really, you know,

[00:03:03] a lot of people in Divinity School definitely experience kind of exposure

[00:03:08] to really being super critical about their faith if they haven't before.

[00:03:12] For me, I'd kind of already done that work.

[00:03:13] It was more like getting the tool set to feel like I was competing well enough

[00:03:17] with some of the resistance to quote unquote bad theology and some

[00:03:22] of the traditional practices that have been happening inside

[00:03:25] of American contemporary church.

[00:03:27] And to be able to do that I think was, I mean, I always felt really happy

[00:03:30] to be a rebel but there was a part of it that I have such a high value for it

[00:03:34] and such a high bar for what kinds of conversations we have to be able to make

[00:03:38] that investment and say, listen, I really have done the work.

[00:03:42] I'm interested in building really good arguments,

[00:03:44] founded arguments and not just speaking from the hip.

[00:03:47] And I think kind of prior to that, I had people's attention.

[00:03:51] I think, you know, there's the part of entertainment and public figures

[00:03:55] and, you know, I think even sometimes, you know, the Hollywood critique

[00:03:58] where artists give their political insights and say everything that they,

[00:04:02] you know, all their views and tweet this and that.

[00:04:05] But I wanted to go that extra step further and say, listen,

[00:04:07] this isn't just an opinion and this isn't, you know,

[00:04:09] some kind of popularity contest I'm trying to win.

[00:04:12] I really wanted to move the needle on these issues

[00:04:15] and wanted to equip myself to be able to do it.

[00:04:17] And so far it's been a really fun journey if not challenging.

[00:04:21] And I was really glad that that was something that I took the time to do.

[00:04:24] Yeah, that's so cool.

[00:04:25] I feel like you do such a good job of having a foot in the faith

[00:04:29] community world still and a foot in the LGBTQ world,

[00:04:32] which do not have to be mutually exclusive, but so often,

[00:04:35] you know, we're told that they do have to be separate.

[00:04:38] Yeah, I think that's certainly when I came out in 2010

[00:04:43] and, you know, now I think the difference between the last 15 years

[00:04:47] basically is there like when I came out, there were definitely felt like

[00:04:51] this oil and water relationship between LGBTQ people in the church.

[00:04:56] And I don't think that's ever really been 100% true.

[00:05:00] But I think this, you know, the one, the wider cultural response to it,

[00:05:04] the assumption that churches just didn't get along and, you know,

[00:05:07] across the board weren't open to LGBTQ people.

[00:05:10] You know, I didn't really know until I came out and started

[00:05:13] having other people inside of that faith community really reaching out to me

[00:05:19] and inviting me into their faith communities.

[00:05:21] Because frankly, when I came out, I just assumed that my

[00:05:25] engagement with faith communities was over.

[00:05:27] I like I just I believed what everybody told me

[00:05:30] because I wasn't hanging in and around a lot of other

[00:05:33] LGBTQ people that went to church.

[00:05:35] I've been around a lot of trauma.

[00:05:37] I've been around a lot of people who had said, screw it.

[00:05:39] I'm not going back.

[00:05:40] And I was one of those people as well.

[00:05:42] But I think, you know, what I would tell you is about

[00:05:45] the history of LGBTQ people in the church.

[00:05:48] We've never been gone.

[00:05:50] We've been marginalized.

[00:05:52] The narratives assume that, you know, we've fallen away or we don't really care.

[00:05:57] But as I met a lot of, you know, as I'm going out and playing shows,

[00:06:00] one of the things that I was and my own coming out and the sharing

[00:06:03] that any of our stories does to kind of connect us with other people.

[00:06:08] I started meeting all of these other LGBTQ people who are saying

[00:06:12] and were fighting for their faith, fighting inside of their faith

[00:06:16] communities because their spirituality is part of creating their whole

[00:06:21] and valuable lives.

[00:06:23] And I had never really kind of personally thought about it that way.

[00:06:26] If I'm honest, you know, I kind of like, you know, my faith was over here

[00:06:30] and it was this other thing that I kind of did and it interested me.

[00:06:34] But it also wasn't something that I saw as

[00:06:38] if I in some way understood my whole being as both spiritual

[00:06:42] and gay, of course, and I just like was happy with the quilt

[00:06:45] that it made, so to speak, that it was interesting that

[00:06:49] like everyday normal LGBTQ people helped me kind of understand

[00:06:54] how important faith was to community, not just the battle itself,

[00:06:58] you know, not just, you know, fighting like the conservative Christian idea

[00:07:02] because it was marginalizing LGBTQ people that it was really worth

[00:07:06] being able to get back and and being and kind of build ourselves up

[00:07:09] because I mean, in any of us kind of building a wholeness

[00:07:13] and a well-rounded self, whatever that spiritual pathway is for us,

[00:07:18] you know, be it religion or something else.

[00:07:20] Our communities inside of that are really important.

[00:07:23] And so I really appreciated that.

[00:07:25] And, you know, I think through the years in the last 15 years

[00:07:28] that the difference between that kind of oil and water thing

[00:07:31] is we're seeing a lot more people that are actually really integrated

[00:07:35] in our everyday church anywhere from mainline churches

[00:07:37] to even evangelical churches, even though some would like to contest that.

[00:07:41] I know quite a few LGBTQ plus Pentecostal folks

[00:07:45] and even some drag queens that are in that camp.

[00:07:48] And I think that's that goes to show that, you know, in the time frame

[00:07:52] that we've made some decent progress, and I'm glad to have been a part of that.

[00:07:57] So I'm going to go backwards a little bit from my usual format.

[00:08:00] Where are you now in your spiritual faith journey?

[00:08:02] Would you identify as a Christian today?

[00:08:06] I always love that question because I was just having this conversation

[00:08:10] with a friend of mine. You know, it's

[00:08:12] yes and no.

[00:08:13] I mean, on one like on one hand, like it's pretty unavoidable.

[00:08:17] I mean that I hate saying or introducing myself as, hey, I'm a Christian

[00:08:22] because when I say that and it's a lot like a lot of other people,

[00:08:26] particularly, you know, Christians or post evangelicals who,

[00:08:30] you know, familiar with the kind of deconstruction experience,

[00:08:34] I am not really happy with what first assumption

[00:08:37] that other people will make when I say I am a Christian.

[00:08:40] But I will also say that when it comes to my spirituality

[00:08:45] and when it comes to, you know, what my faith language is,

[00:08:49] Christianity and the traditions behind it is my mother tongue for one to,

[00:08:55] you know, if I deny that experience and I kind of like avoid

[00:08:59] any claim inside of that space, it actually short sells

[00:09:03] the incredible positivity that has come in my life from every single day

[00:09:09] and I've been given my life from actually having invested

[00:09:12] in my own spiritual work, having connected with spiritual community,

[00:09:17] having really received a blessing from the church in some respect.

[00:09:22] So, you know, I'm not like a one true faith kind of thing.

[00:09:26] And, you know, there's those issues as well.

[00:09:28] Like when a lot of people are familiar with Christianity

[00:09:31] kind of think, oh, well, there's only, you know, my God

[00:09:34] and there's only one way.

[00:09:35] And if you don't do it this way, then you are lost

[00:09:38] smite you. And I just I'm not a fan of that.

[00:09:41] I never have been a fan.

[00:09:42] It doesn't really seem like your style.

[00:09:44] Well, yeah. But I mean, you know, the long conversation is listen.

[00:09:48] Yes, I am a Christian.

[00:09:49] This is the way that this is the filter through which I begin

[00:09:54] my understanding of spirituality and I'm open to the divine.

[00:09:59] After that, if you're not willing to have a conversation with me, then

[00:10:03] and engage in the long game, then that's fine.

[00:10:06] Like I offend people on both extremes of, you know, from the atheist

[00:10:10] to the super conservative evangelical.

[00:10:13] So I'm less concerned with the label than I am about the practice

[00:10:17] and the engagement I have with others.

[00:10:21] I would say I'm definitely not an evangelical in that sense.

[00:10:24] But yeah, it's it's an interesting conversation worth having

[00:10:27] because in talking with my friends, part of the thing that I

[00:10:30] I personally contend with is the tension between all the reasons

[00:10:35] why I don't want to say that or align myself, you know, with a particular

[00:10:40] group of people who may be a challenge to the way of thinking

[00:10:45] when I describe myself in that way or describe my pursuits in that way.

[00:10:49] But it's also a problem for me not to claim what I'm doing

[00:10:52] and to be well understood about, you know, what what is informing me,

[00:10:58] what my passions are and what I'm willing to be responsible for.

[00:11:01] So it's a real challenge not to say that, but at the same time,

[00:11:04] you know, I'm willing to have patience to to be able to have that understood

[00:11:08] that I'm not out to convert the world into some kind of,

[00:11:12] you know, monolith of conservatism, but that I'm actually genuinely

[00:11:18] genuinely excited about being a human being in the world

[00:11:22] that no matter who I meet and no matter what context that is,

[00:11:25] the ultimate goal is to just be engaged with other people

[00:11:29] in such a way that actually brings life to us all.

[00:11:31] Mm hmm. So what kind of idea about divinity do you have now?

[00:11:36] If it's not the God that we grew up with or that we had in the Christian world,

[00:11:41] you know, my sense of divine right now is like my own intuition

[00:11:44] and my own voice and people have all sorts of ideas about that.

[00:11:48] So I'm wondering what what are yours?

[00:11:50] Yeah, you know, I think it really surprises people

[00:11:52] because if I were to rephrase that question in another way, like sometimes

[00:11:56] and maybe this is not exactly what you're asking, but sometimes

[00:11:59] like people come up to me and go, well, do you believe in God or don't you?

[00:12:03] And so I start there and I go, well, let me check in.

[00:12:07] Oh, today I do.

[00:12:09] And then like today or not right now, not so much.

[00:12:13] But it's it's kind of like a weird thing, right?

[00:12:15] This mystery of how you identify the divine.

[00:12:19] I'm I'm a little bit of a fan of Paul Tillich,

[00:12:23] who refers to the ultimate with a capital U.

[00:12:27] You know, I am definitely over this anthropomorphic view of God.

[00:12:33] Right. The old man in the sky with a beard that ushers up us up into heaven.

[00:12:38] I tend to think a lot rather than vertically, like up and down,

[00:12:42] like we're down here and God's up there.

[00:12:44] I actually tend to lately to kind of see divinity as this force.

[00:12:50] Not to sound all Star Warsy on you, but this forest kind of ladder

[00:12:54] like like 360, 100, you know, linearly all the way around with us, in us,

[00:13:01] around us, the fabric of all things wholly that are together,

[00:13:06] like working toward a benevolent force.

[00:13:08] I waffle sometimes perhaps more than I should.

[00:13:11] And this ties to the anthropomorphic thing for me.

[00:13:15] You know, is God a thinking individual thing

[00:13:19] or is it more a representation of, you know, all of the energy

[00:13:24] in the world that is kind of in this vein?

[00:13:26] So but I think it's a holy thing.

[00:13:29] And by holy, I mean like extraordinarily fantastic,

[00:13:34] you know, moving to some benevolent beauty in some way.

[00:13:39] But like, yeah, I tend to kind of leave this very open handed, open to mystery

[00:13:46] and at best say something greater than ourselves

[00:13:51] that we can participate with, see in and is, oh, I'm going to say it out loud.

[00:13:56] It's like a spirit is an ultimate spirit of some kind

[00:14:01] that we have an opportunity to be recognizing that we are part of it.

[00:14:06] Like, I don't know that I'm separate from it, you know, which is a weird thing,

[00:14:11] which, you know, like leads into what you were saying about your intuition,

[00:14:15] the voice inside of you that is, you know, it's not necessarily I heard,

[00:14:19] you know, some people go, oh, I heard from God or Jesus told me.

[00:14:22] You're like, oh, I kind of I'm like,

[00:14:25] that sounds more like psychosis than anything else.

[00:14:28] And, you know, but I don't want to make fun of it.

[00:14:30] I think there is something inside of this that comes from.

[00:14:34] Yeah, we hear we hear

[00:14:37] we hear another voice at some

[00:14:40] sometimes that we don't necessarily go, oh, this is my thought.

[00:14:43] This is my thinking.

[00:14:43] I'm urging myself toward this way, you know, or like

[00:14:47] one of my favorite skits from Amy Schumer was like,

[00:14:50] the universe is trying to tell me to get these shoes.

[00:14:54] One of those kinds of things.

[00:14:55] But it does sometimes seem like there's alignment, right?

[00:14:58] Of things that we fall into and whether that's true or not, I don't know.

[00:15:03] And I'm not really interested in judging it, but I am open to the mystery of it

[00:15:06] because divinity is a capital D, but it doesn't have a face for me.

[00:15:11] It is everywhere that I look.

[00:15:13] Yeah, I love that.

[00:15:14] It sounds almost like divinity is in you and in the people around you

[00:15:19] and the way that you love other people and the way that other people

[00:15:22] love the world around them and almost like this kind of collective power

[00:15:26] that we have as human beings and all things beyond that.

[00:15:30] I don't know. Is that does that kind of sum it up?

[00:15:32] Yeah. And I think in some way it's actually like to me,

[00:15:35] I tie that kind of to our theological thinking of like sin.

[00:15:39] I'm not going to say that in a weird thing,

[00:15:40] but it's actually applicable to me in this context because it helps me understand.

[00:15:46] Like in an old school version of church, we would always talk about sin

[00:15:50] as being separated from God in some way.

[00:15:51] But we also get this laundry list of things that we do and we don't do

[00:15:55] and things that you do that are good and things that you do are bad.

[00:15:58] Right. But it is more of like, what is it I'm participating in?

[00:16:02] What am I continuing that gives life?

[00:16:04] This, to me, is actually a very ultimate Christian view

[00:16:09] because Christ, in some sense, no matter, even if I have difficulty

[00:16:13] looking at Jesus as the sun on the right, you know, at the right hand of God

[00:16:17] kind of thing, I still look at like this idea that Christianity set

[00:16:22] like came through with understanding the revelation of Jesus in some way

[00:16:26] as this overcoming of death, this overcoming of a separation

[00:16:31] from us and others, right. An ultimate end and the victory inside of that.

[00:16:36] And I think this is the contribution that is most intriguing to me

[00:16:40] about Christianity is it puts in context.

[00:16:44] I am working toward life.

[00:16:46] I am working toward creation.

[00:16:48] I'm working toward connection with others, watering things,

[00:16:52] helping it grow, putting light on.

[00:16:54] I mean, these are all things that we say in language

[00:16:58] that are about basically resisting ultimate infinite death, infinite darkness.

[00:17:03] And so when I talk about sin and introduce that, it is this concept

[00:17:07] of that's what we're fighting. We're fighting this ultimate death.

[00:17:09] We're choosing not to be the end of something, but as we live,

[00:17:14] as we connect with others, as we participate in our world

[00:17:18] are literally make generating a blooming garden,

[00:17:22] you know, a bright world connected and serving people.

[00:17:26] When I'm loving other people, what I'm hoping in my love of them

[00:17:29] that they're actually going to flourish in themselves and their whole dignity.

[00:17:34] So it's to me like the sin or the crime.

[00:17:36] Anytime that we do that, it's like when we say I don't care about the end of it.

[00:17:40] It's you know, I don't care whether you live or die.

[00:17:42] I don't care if I'm going to allow this thing to prosper

[00:17:45] and to be part of its flourishing.

[00:17:46] And that's one of the challenges to me, I think.

[00:17:49] And where I go back and I'm like, oh, wow, it really is important

[00:17:51] that I kind of claim this thing a little bit,

[00:17:53] because this is what I'm actually trying to do.

[00:18:08] Can you tell us a little bit about how you got into church,

[00:18:11] how you got into the Christian evangelical music scene

[00:18:14] and what that looked like for you when you were there?

[00:18:16] Yeah, well, I didn't kind of grow up in like a regularly church attending household.

[00:18:22] I was like from Kansas, so kind of there's a church on every corner.

[00:18:26] My grandmother prayed, you know, at Christmas and Easter

[00:18:28] and made me go to church occasionally.

[00:18:30] So it wasn't like I was unfamiliar with Christianity,

[00:18:32] but I was definitely part of the big movement of basically young adults

[00:18:37] and youth in the early 1990s that like guests started becoming

[00:18:42] like hardcore Christians.

[00:18:43] So I put in air quotes.

[00:18:44] I accepted Christ when I was a freshman in college, I think,

[00:18:49] was hanging out around with a fellowship of Christian athletes

[00:18:52] and just got really involved inside of a really hyper,

[00:18:56] really energetic and dynamic group of college kids

[00:19:01] that were doing everything.

[00:19:02] And they were like they were musicians.

[00:19:04] They were, you know, and that's how I kind of got started

[00:19:07] doing music as well.

[00:19:08] Started playing in a worship group.

[00:19:10] And then later on, there was a band that formed for my church.

[00:19:13] Like it was all hip and happening.

[00:19:15] But I got into it because I genuinely I got into Christianity.

[00:19:18] I was what really appealed to me was that there was this narrative inside.

[00:19:23] I'd never really kind of understood that I was a person

[00:19:26] that I could see as God saw me.

[00:19:28] And I'm here using that language, but like that there was something worthy

[00:19:32] of you know, there's something worthy about me,

[00:19:34] that there was something of dignity about me.

[00:19:36] And I didn't understand that at all.

[00:19:38] Like I was really kind of lost.

[00:19:40] That was really appealing to me that I could be loved

[00:19:43] because I didn't love myself.

[00:19:44] Like I just didn't see it.

[00:19:46] I didn't understand it.

[00:19:47] And I was kind of looking for some way to kind of rescue my own self.

[00:19:53] That was like really appealing to me.

[00:19:55] But as I got into it, yeah, I mean, we can pick up.

[00:19:58] I don't have to tell you the whole story of that.

[00:20:00] But a couple of years later and getting involved in basically being a young,

[00:20:03] pretty enthusiastic evangelical Christian,

[00:20:07] I was doing a lot of concerts and shows and coffee houses.

[00:20:10] And within two or three years,

[00:20:12] I had actually ended up signing with the Christian Music label,

[00:20:15] even though I had no idea what Christian music really had,

[00:20:19] no idea about the history.

[00:20:21] I had no aspirations to be an artist necessarily.

[00:20:24] I was a trumpet player, actually, originally.

[00:20:27] So I went to the dark side and started playing pop music

[00:20:30] instead of all the classical stuff that I used to do.

[00:20:33] I'm a music teacher, so I love that you were a band kid first.

[00:20:36] Oh, my God.

[00:20:37] I yeah, all the horror photographs of me on a marching band field.

[00:20:41] Yeah. OK, so you wrote so much wonderful music,

[00:20:45] but the one that I listened to the most was the Kansas album.

[00:20:48] And now it's coming out again.

[00:20:50] So can we talk a little bit about that album?

[00:20:53] Yeah. What did it feel like when you wrote those songs?

[00:20:55] I'm sure that it felt really authentic at the time.

[00:20:58] And then how did your relationship with this music that you wrote as a Christian?

[00:21:03] How did your relationship with that shift and change as you shifted and grew?

[00:21:08] Well, it's interesting kind of coming off the How Did I Become a Christian?

[00:21:12] Because really, a lot of the songs on Kansas were written

[00:21:15] in that first couple of years of My Christianity,

[00:21:19] a little bit kind of also in relationship to the How Did You Become a CCM artist,

[00:21:23] because my friends were like, oh, now that you're a Christian,

[00:21:25] you can't listen to secular music anymore.

[00:21:28] And I was like, huh? What?

[00:21:30] But I started I was like a lot of the stuff on Kansas were prayers.

[00:21:35] They were very reflective discipleship work.

[00:21:38] And what what I found was like this weird

[00:21:42] I began my faith intention with Christian culture

[00:21:45] because all of a sudden, like I thought what I heard from Christianity

[00:21:49] was this open invitation, literally not to be cliche about it,

[00:21:53] but literally come as you are.

[00:21:55] And I was like, fuck an A like here.

[00:21:59] Here I am.

[00:22:00] I'm a hot mess.

[00:22:02] And I knew it and I was fine with it because I was like,

[00:22:05] not that I wanted my future prospects to be a hot mess my whole life,

[00:22:09] but I'm going I'm doing the best that I can.

[00:22:11] Thank you for having enough grace to allow me to just begin

[00:22:14] to develop who I want to be as a human being,

[00:22:18] because I had never thought of that before.

[00:22:20] And then I run into Christian culture that says, oh, come as you are.

[00:22:25] But I'd really be a lot more comfortable if you were wearing a dress right now.

[00:22:30] I'd be like, what?

[00:22:31] It was just kind of freaking me out.

[00:22:33] But not only that, like the things that really, really matter.

[00:22:37] You know, and I think one of the things that stands out to me

[00:22:39] is I remember kind of early on and usually was in and around sex,

[00:22:43] strangely enough, like, you know, my college kids, right?

[00:22:45] We're all like horny and trying to pair up in one way or the other.

[00:22:50] And, you know, like and I saw it on all sides.

[00:22:53] Like first off, I was treated suspiciously

[00:22:55] because everyone knew that I had had sex.

[00:22:57] So I wasn't a virgin, which made it really hard for me to date

[00:23:01] because none of the guys wanted to partner up or be around me

[00:23:05] because they wanted virgin brides because they were good Christian men.

[00:23:07] Right. No, toot a piece of gum. Right. Exactly.

[00:23:10] And I was like, wait a second, that's kind of screwed up.

[00:23:12] And then, you know, I had friends who had had sex

[00:23:15] and they were like kind of getting pushed out or criticized or deeply shamed.

[00:23:20] And then the other side of it, too, were just like, oh, you, Jen,

[00:23:25] all personalize it like on one hand, if I was going out with a guy,

[00:23:28] everybody is like, don't have sex with them and don't get too close to him.

[00:23:32] And they'd be critical and always kind of really worried about my

[00:23:36] my Christianity or wasn't a very good Christian if I was dating in this way.

[00:23:40] They'd be suspicious that I was going to ruin these men's lives by sexy them.

[00:23:46] And then you do have a sexy power.

[00:23:48] So, I mean, apparently I am so powerful.

[00:23:52] And then if I had too close of a relationship with a woman,

[00:23:55] then I get set down for coffee as well going, well, we're worried

[00:23:58] about your relationship. Am I just screwing everybody?

[00:24:00] Like I, you know, and this is before I kind of understood

[00:24:04] my own sexual orientation, which is ironic because I ended up

[00:24:08] shutting it down after I started working.

[00:24:10] I was just like, all right, I'm single and I was celibate for 10 years.

[00:24:14] I mean, I was just like, OK, nobody's on the market.

[00:24:17] I don't even know what's going on. I'm asexual now.

[00:24:19] Yeah. Like, fuck that.

[00:24:20] Everything I did was wrong. I'll just close all the doors.

[00:24:22] But it was going back to the writing.

[00:24:24] It was part of a lot of like all of those things.

[00:24:28] I was really dealing with absolutely being sincere about my faith,

[00:24:32] absolutely trying to be participant in the transformation of my own life

[00:24:38] and dealing with a church that's language had all of the things

[00:24:42] and all of the care and all the compassion for that.

[00:24:45] But really screwed up on some of the ways that we talk about this,

[00:24:48] things you can do and can't do.

[00:24:50] And so I wrote about those.

[00:24:51] I put my heart on the page and I the authenticity,

[00:24:55] I think that comes through in the joy of Kansas is that I wasn't writing

[00:24:59] to try and impress anybody.

[00:25:01] And I love the subversiveness that poetry can give you as well,

[00:25:06] because you can say I'm actually really uncomfortable

[00:25:10] with the judgment that you guys are saying.

[00:25:12] Like a song off of Kansas Hold Me Now is really like

[00:25:15] a pre true love waits critique, but it's biblical.

[00:25:19] Like it's right out of the Bible.

[00:25:21] So I got away with it in my church, but I was basically saying

[00:25:23] you guys are like judging all of us.

[00:25:25] Like you're sexually shaming everybody in this room.

[00:25:29] And so it was ways for me to be able to contend with that.

[00:25:33] So, you know, I think really early on I was so touched

[00:25:37] by this opportunity of what it meant to seek love and liberation

[00:25:41] and transformation and reconciliation.

[00:25:44] Those were extremely appealing messages from the Christian tradition

[00:25:49] and because I didn't grow up with it and because it wasn't embedded in me,

[00:25:54] I wasn't willing to take that on along with those things.

[00:25:58] All you know, all of the critiques of that

[00:26:00] that made it difficult for me to do that, I didn't have.

[00:26:02] So in a weird way, I was deconstructed.

[00:26:05] I was resisting kind of a lot of things that I think people now

[00:26:08] and even like when I was in school, like people experiencing

[00:26:12] some kind of deconstruction because you have to kind of undo

[00:26:15] some of the other things so you can get down to the core of what that means.

[00:26:18] And it's spiritual for him, I think.

[00:26:20] So, yeah, that's all to say is that Kansas was like a work in that.

[00:26:24] That's where I began.

[00:26:25] And so, yeah, the language is sometimes different.

[00:26:28] I wouldn't say some of the religiously.

[00:26:30] I mean, I wouldn't like necessarily like evoke Jesus.

[00:26:35] I wasn't really super comfortable with it at the time.

[00:26:38] But, you know, I probably wouldn't couch it in that way now.

[00:26:41] But for then I was trying to like bridge the gap between where I was

[00:26:46] in the authenticity of where I was and also try and speak in the language

[00:26:50] of the people that I was living with at the time.

[00:26:53] So it's kind of this this weird kind of space.

[00:26:56] And when I go back to it, I'm like, oh, man, yeah, she she wrote that.

[00:27:00] Like, that's the way that she said it.

[00:27:02] And I even saw clips.

[00:27:03] I mean, that's the way that I talked as well.

[00:27:04] Like I was involved in that environment.

[00:27:06] I've kind of really challenged myself over the years to to try

[00:27:10] and be a little less exclusive in the Christian ease, so to speak.

[00:27:18] And cast the first stone, say the night that I've spilled your finger

[00:27:40] and laugh if you choose to say my beloved is born and you

[00:27:49] she is strong enough to stand in my love.

[00:27:54] I can hear her say.

[00:27:59] I find that so many people and I don't know,

[00:28:02] maybe there's no correlation here.

[00:28:04] You can tell me what you think.

[00:28:05] But so many of us who have deconstructed our faith in some way,

[00:28:09] whether we've left completely or shifted our view of Christianity,

[00:28:12] so many of us were like die hard Jennifer Knapp fans.

[00:28:15] And is there a reason that we loved your music so much?

[00:28:19] Like, is there some kind of authenticity that you had

[00:28:23] that we didn't see elsewhere?

[00:28:26] Was there some kind of maybe this is what you were just saying.

[00:28:29] Like, I think maybe I was deconstructing a little bit then

[00:28:31] or thinking about my faith in new ways even then.

[00:28:34] Well, I it's flattering that that's part of the narrative of my work

[00:28:39] and that this particular project.

[00:28:42] It's hard to get my head around like as an individual.

[00:28:45] But I think the longevity of that particular project

[00:28:49] and even the thread that connects to the work that I do now

[00:28:53] and the conversations that I have now, like this being one of them.

[00:28:56] You're right.

[00:28:57] It has been a lifelong commitment that I've had to be very serious.

[00:29:01] Like if I'm going to participate,

[00:29:03] maybe go back to my early days as a 20 year old going,

[00:29:06] oh, my God, I'm drinking the Kool-Aid.

[00:29:08] I can't believe I just did this and I've joined a cult.

[00:29:12] You know, I've joined the church and the part of me

[00:29:15] that that is still like kind of underneath of that cynical

[00:29:19] of the religious experience.

[00:29:20] I really am.

[00:29:21] But at the same time, like I really have to admit

[00:29:26] that, oh, God, like it was a saving experience for me.

[00:29:32] I cannot discount what it means to participate in love,

[00:29:37] what it means to participate in learning, what it means to be involved

[00:29:42] and engaged with the transformation of oneself,

[00:29:46] the investment in the transformation of others.

[00:29:48] You know, I can't do that.

[00:29:49] I just I can't I'm addicted to it.

[00:29:53] I suppose I will choose nothing else in my life.

[00:29:55] So I don't call me whatever you want.

[00:29:57] The success of that, I think in the long term is

[00:30:00] I feel like I've always had my heart on my sleeve in that.

[00:30:03] I'll be like, OK, you know what?

[00:30:05] I'm quick to apologize if I say something stupid or wrong or go.

[00:30:09] And I'm also like, well, I said that. You're right.

[00:30:12] That's what I said.

[00:30:12] You know, even like with Kansas, like

[00:30:15] it's a record that's 25 years old and I'm going those are my words.

[00:30:19] I said it there.

[00:30:20] You know, that's where I was at at the time.

[00:30:22] And I'm not going to live in shame about it.

[00:30:24] But I also see the connective threads of what I was working on then.

[00:30:28] And now I'm like, oh, wow, I was actually really testing

[00:30:31] some really deep theological concepts

[00:30:34] that I've spent the last 25, 30 years getting to a point

[00:30:37] where now I can articulate some of those in ways

[00:30:40] that I wouldn't have been able to contend with at the time

[00:30:43] because I didn't yet know the tradition that much either.

[00:30:45] I didn't want to offend the tradition.

[00:30:47] But I think the long term of people enjoying that has been

[00:30:50] I'd like to think it's because what people have said to me

[00:30:54] that they've trusted that I haven't been trying to coerce

[00:30:57] anyone into what they were doing.

[00:31:00] I have just invited people to see, you know, I've shared with people

[00:31:04] what I've been working through.

[00:31:05] I've just done that work in public and I have managed to just

[00:31:10] I basically refuse to be shamed about that process.

[00:31:15] You know, if I were to kind of summarize

[00:31:16] what I hear like the two basic things are from people

[00:31:19] because it's given us all room to grow.

[00:31:22] Like it's given us all a chance to evolve and to be enthusiastic

[00:31:25] also when we find something new and, you know,

[00:31:29] we'll dress in the style of a time, but we will dress

[00:31:32] in another style later on down the road.

[00:31:34] But the core of who we are as human beings.

[00:31:36] And this is the one thing I'm absolutely so honored to witness

[00:31:41] is that the people that I talk to at shows inside my Patreon, like

[00:31:46] oh, I hate using the word fan or audience because I don't own anybody.

[00:31:50] But the folks that I I meet in that space are extraordinary

[00:31:54] human beings from truck drivers to podcasters, to therapists, to

[00:31:59] Ph.D. astrophysicists.

[00:32:01] They are people who no matter what they're doing or where they are

[00:32:06] on however they identify or whatever spiritual discipline they're doing.

[00:32:10] They are people that are determined to be the best version of themselves

[00:32:13] for for the betterment, not just of themselves,

[00:32:16] but to not be a drain on others, to be to be agents of good in the world.

[00:32:21] And that to me is, you know, all the recording and all the things

[00:32:25] that I've ever done in my life.

[00:32:27] I'm like, if I never sing another note again, like I couldn't have planned that.

[00:32:31] I'm just honored to be like in and around a community of people

[00:32:34] who are saying, listen, we all have a lot of different ways and views

[00:32:37] of doing this, but at the end of the day, we're all kind of working toward

[00:32:40] something better and greater than just serving ourselves

[00:32:44] and just, you know, cloaking ourselves in an institution

[00:32:48] or branding ourselves and being understood a particular way.

[00:32:51] If we say that we want to do good, we're actually people who are like

[00:32:54] really trying hard to do something good in the world

[00:32:57] and having materially benefit somebody better than just our resume.

[00:33:02] So what was it like for you to rerecord the Kansas album?

[00:33:06] Did these songs and words still feel true to you?

[00:33:09] Did any of it feel triggering or inauthentic in a way?

[00:33:13] Yeah, what was that balance like for you?

[00:33:15] Yeah, I went through the triggering part probably pretty early

[00:33:19] after I started to come back to work when I started playing in 2010

[00:33:23] and I quit Christian music and came back.

[00:33:25] It took me a while to kind of get comfortable with the music.

[00:33:28] But when I started playing it, it was really weird.

[00:33:30] It was like it's sort of like, you know, when you put on somebody else's shoes,

[00:33:34] you can tell like their footprints are in them, you know, like,

[00:33:37] you're like, these aren't my shoes.

[00:33:38] You can tell she put them on.

[00:33:40] But like when I started to play the songs,

[00:33:43] I could tell they were mine.

[00:33:45] Like I could tell they came from my body, like just playing it

[00:33:48] the way my hands move, the way it feels in my throat.

[00:33:51] Like, I'm like, oh, wow, these are mine.

[00:33:54] And so moving ahead like to now and rerecording it,

[00:33:58] the things that I play a lot have been familiar to me for a long time.

[00:34:02] And so that was really comfortable.

[00:34:03] But there were some things that I just don't play anymore.

[00:34:06] And there are reasons why I don't really play them anymore.

[00:34:09] You know, one, they were from a younger girl, a younger body

[00:34:12] with way more pepper steps sometimes like Romans.

[00:34:15] Like I hadn't really been offended by Romans at all.

[00:34:19] I wouldn't have critiqued it.

[00:34:20] Yeah. And then I was in the studio and actually doing background vocals.

[00:34:24] And the chorus of the song is I don't have to be condemned.

[00:34:28] Jesus saved me from the laws of sin.

[00:34:30] If I fall, I'll try again.

[00:34:32] Blah, blah, blah.

[00:34:33] And it's a campy kind of worshipy youth group kind of song.

[00:34:38] So I've got enough grace for that.

[00:34:40] But when I started to do the background vocals, I'm actually

[00:34:43] I felt like it was like putting in bold print Jesus saved me from the laws of sin.

[00:34:47] And I really have a theological problem with that statement

[00:34:51] for a variety of different reasons.

[00:34:53] It's not that I don't value Jesus at all.

[00:34:55] I don't have a problem with that.

[00:34:57] And I understand where the gal who wrote that is coming from.

[00:35:01] But now I have a substitutional atonement narrative

[00:35:04] where I didn't understand why I was uncomfortable with evangelicalism

[00:35:08] for so many years or why I was somewhat offended.

[00:35:11] The idea that somebody had to come up to an altar and get saved.

[00:35:15] And now I know what that means.

[00:35:17] Like after, you know, it wasn't an MTS,

[00:35:20] you know, a theological degree that got me there.

[00:35:22] It was 30 years of really wrestling.

[00:35:25] Why? Why do I have a problem with that statement?

[00:35:28] And like this idea that we need to be rescued from our humanity

[00:35:32] was one of them.

[00:35:33] Like God made me and now somebody else screwed it up.

[00:35:35] Now I have to start from ground zero and earn this.

[00:35:38] Just seemed not the same thing that I was reading inside that text.

[00:35:43] So there were moments on the record like that where I'm like, hmm, yeah,

[00:35:47] that statement, you'll never hear me ever say again.

[00:35:51] And I debated, you know, what do I do with things like this?

[00:35:53] Do I edit them? Do I change them?

[00:35:55] And I just like I had to own it.

[00:35:57] Like, I'd rather have the conversation going, yep, you're right.

[00:36:00] I wrote that and I'm Emory recording it again,

[00:36:02] but let's have a greater conversation.

[00:36:04] And I think most of the people who know this work

[00:36:07] who have been around me for a while and the people that this is gifted to

[00:36:11] will have have a lot of grace and understanding about that.

[00:36:14] Like it is the language and it is kind of I mean,

[00:36:16] I don't think that statement is wrong.

[00:36:18] But I also think when that statement is made,

[00:36:21] a majority of the people who tend to use that statement

[00:36:25] tend to use it in an evangelical way that I wouldn't align with today.

[00:36:29] So, yeah, I have to come to terms with it, but, you know, it's there.

[00:36:32] And yeah, I just didn't sing a background vocal.

[00:36:36] Well, yeah, I think there are two.

[00:36:38] I mean, there's probably many ways to look at this,

[00:36:40] but I think there's two main ways that I often think about

[00:36:43] how we can look at the Christian evangelical narrative.

[00:36:46] And one is kind of what you talked about.

[00:36:48] It sounds like when you were writing Kansas, which is like, I am worthy.

[00:36:52] I have dignity. Come as you are.

[00:36:54] I am good and loved as I am. And that's beautiful.

[00:36:56] And then when you dig in deeper, there's another way to look at it,

[00:37:01] which is like I am sinful.

[00:37:02] I am bad and I am only good through Jesus.

[00:37:05] And one of those feels really affirming and one feels like shit.

[00:37:09] I think particularly as in female bodies, we get that narrative

[00:37:13] particularly quick. Yeah.

[00:37:15] And it's so interesting to think about when you were writing it,

[00:37:18] it maybe had one meeting.

[00:37:20] And as you know, you've gone through life experiences

[00:37:23] and with all of your experiences in these evangelical spaces,

[00:37:26] when you go back to saying Jesus saved me from the laws of sin,

[00:37:29] it has a very different meaning now than maybe it did when you wrote it.

[00:37:33] Or I don't know, maybe you wrote it without harmful meaning too, but.

[00:37:36] No, I didn't. No, I certainly didn't.

[00:37:38] Like I just I don't think I had the maturity yet

[00:37:41] or the language that I would now to be able to make that differentiation,

[00:37:45] to be able to say what what is the tension like? OK, I you just fall.

[00:37:49] And I can appreciate even why people would say it

[00:37:52] because it's an easier, much less clunky thing to say.

[00:37:55] You can say the sentence Jesus saved me.

[00:37:58] And I'm like, oh, my God.

[00:38:00] When I say that out loud to somebody else who doesn't understand,

[00:38:03] like I can put in the work to talk about like

[00:38:07] it's sort of like in my my critical head,

[00:38:10] what I hear is an imaginary friend came and rescued me from.

[00:38:15] I don't know. Like it's it's weird, but it's still true.

[00:38:18] Like I still have to contend with the transformation

[00:38:21] that I've chosen in that space and where the decision to become a Christian

[00:38:27] has actually utterly transformed and saved me in a lot of ways,

[00:38:32] saved me like from the pits of hell.

[00:38:35] No, but it's given me a direction attached me to a sense of dignity

[00:38:39] and self-worth, informed me, taught me, guided me, fellowshiped with me,

[00:38:44] opened the door to love and possibility and life.

[00:38:47] That's that's salvation.

[00:38:50] But we like depending on who you talk to,

[00:38:53] you'll get into a lot of theological quagmires about talking about what salvation is.

[00:38:58] Is it going to be this mechanical thing that actually happens

[00:39:01] or is it this long term investment?

[00:39:03] And I'll try and stop rambling.

[00:39:05] But the thing that I loved about what you were saying is,

[00:39:08] you know, which was which is more positive.

[00:39:10] The you know, the idea that I'm going to choose to live into this

[00:39:14] or this other side that we're starting from this negative space

[00:39:17] trying to earn our way up to God.

[00:39:19] The irony about all this is, is very few people look

[00:39:22] look to the space of faith or religion or our spiritual well-being

[00:39:27] and aren't already aware and acknowledging

[00:39:30] that we are trying to better ourselves,

[00:39:33] that we understand at the core of this that we have good days and bad days.

[00:39:38] Qualities in us that actually do limit our relationships,

[00:39:42] do offend others, do hurt and harm others.

[00:39:47] And that's the work.

[00:39:48] But that's that's when you raise your hand and going, I'm actively working on that.

[00:39:52] I actually care about that.

[00:39:53] I don't know how to do it.

[00:39:55] And I'm trying to learn how to do that.

[00:39:57] I am investing in my time and I'm committing to do that.

[00:39:59] You can put me on the hook for that.

[00:40:01] I'll be responsible to it.

[00:40:02] So that that's the weird thing to me is like in all of that,

[00:40:05] you know, it's like, no, I'm not actually trying to cherry pick.

[00:40:07] I'm actually doing this work.

[00:40:09] I'm just not I don't want to start from a negative place.

[00:40:12] I'm trying to find the best possible version of me that I know exists.

[00:40:16] And I'm going to do that work.

[00:40:17] Yeah. And that is Christianity done right or whatever you want to call it.

[00:40:21] I don't know. We can call it whatever we want.

[00:40:22] But like you were saying, it's much more affirming and it's much more positive.

[00:40:26] And I don't think it alienates the good news.

[00:40:30] I don't think that alienates Christ.

[00:40:32] And there are other theologians that sit in this space as well.

[00:40:36] And I think that's part of an interesting thing in the wider picture.

[00:40:39] If you get into theology and the quote unquote deconstruction thing.

[00:40:43] I mean, 10 years ago, I kept my I have a problem with substitutional atonement

[00:40:48] in my chest like I did not say that in public.

[00:40:51] Just was like because it was like saying Jesus doesn't say like

[00:40:55] it was so ingrained in me that that is the core of Christianity.

[00:40:59] Yes. But I'm like, no, that's evangelicalism for sure.

[00:41:02] Evangelicals like you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior,

[00:41:06] or you don't get to heaven and God can't see you.

[00:41:09] And I'm like, no, God sees you.

[00:41:11] God sees everything like anyone have a problem with that statement.

[00:41:15] You know, does God have eyes? I don't know. So

[00:41:20] but it's it's a digression.

[00:41:21] But the fear that I had and I think a lot of people now are starting to go,

[00:41:25] hey, there is a problem.

[00:41:26] There is a problem when we see that we're starting off

[00:41:29] from a place of your your rubbish, you're a piece of shit

[00:41:34] and you need to get right with the Lord.

[00:41:36] I mean, that just does not open any kind of hospitality up to any of us.

[00:41:40] Even if it's true, like even if I'm like really screwing up,

[00:41:45] if the first thing you say to me is, you know, it's just not good

[00:41:48] human psychology, it doesn't we don't work very well

[00:41:51] when we're instantly assaulted and we get into a defensive position. Right.

[00:41:55] Instead, we do a lot better with affirmation and saying,

[00:41:58] here is a possibility.

[00:42:00] Here is a possibility of us being able to grow together.

[00:42:04] Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:42:05] I came to see you when you came to Boston a few years ago now,

[00:42:09] but you played at City Winery in Boston and I came to see you.

[00:42:12] And it was right at this point in my deconstruction

[00:42:15] where I knew I wasn't a Christian, but I didn't really know

[00:42:19] what I was outside of Christianity.

[00:42:21] But I knew that that was not for me.

[00:42:23] And I had finally just started being like,

[00:42:27] maybe there are some parts of my Christian experience

[00:42:30] that I can hold on to.

[00:42:31] But that was really hard for me.

[00:42:33] And I didn't know what those things were. Right.

[00:42:35] But going to watch you play and hearing you play these songs

[00:42:39] that were so influential to me as a Christian and hearing

[00:42:43] hearing that you've been through this long faith journey yourself

[00:42:46] and figuring out your own kind of deconstruction

[00:42:48] and figuring out what works for you and hearing you hold onto these songs

[00:42:53] and sing them in a new way or like breathe a new life into them.

[00:42:56] When you sang them, when I heard you,

[00:42:59] it helped me see that I could hold on to any pieces of my Christianity

[00:43:03] that I wanted to, and I could let go of any of them, too.

[00:43:06] One of my favorite movie quotes of all time

[00:43:09] that has been actually really helpful to me

[00:43:12] when I got to this space, kind of figuring out like

[00:43:15] because I was pissed when I first started, I'm like,

[00:43:17] I'm never going to go back to the church, screw those guys or whatever.

[00:43:20] I'll have my private thing over here and it will be all good.

[00:43:22] And maybe I basically spent 10 years trying to like not be me

[00:43:28] like spiritually for a while.

[00:43:30] But that's to say is like there's a quote from a movie called

[00:43:33] For Your Consideration.

[00:43:34] It's a Christopher Guest Waiting for Guffman, best in show kind of series.

[00:43:38] But the guy says, if you throw the baby out with the bath water,

[00:43:43] all you get is a wet, critically injured baby.

[00:43:46] And that I think of that quote in this space a lot because,

[00:43:51] you know, I was ready to check the whole thing out and I went,

[00:43:53] wait a second, I'm the baby.

[00:43:56] You know, like I was wet and critically injured.

[00:43:59] And I was like, wait a second, I can't throw all those things away.

[00:44:03] And I'm not I'm not going to like that just seemed like the bad move.

[00:44:07] It didn't seem like the most nurturing thing.

[00:44:10] So I said, OK, hold on a second.

[00:44:12] Let's slowly drain the water.

[00:44:14] Like that's not the way we have to do it.

[00:44:16] I'm going to now build what I'm going to build

[00:44:19] with a lot more deliberate participation.

[00:44:22] So that's kind of one of the things I would say.

[00:44:24] And that's often the things that I talk about in public as well.

[00:44:27] Like, listen, right. Go to church.

[00:44:29] Don't go to church.

[00:44:30] You can make that decision.

[00:44:33] Go to this tradition.

[00:44:34] Go to a different tradition.

[00:44:35] But whatever it is that you're doing, we're not in the space

[00:44:38] of being convinced that this is the way that you have to build it.

[00:44:42] I think your responsibility and agency as an individual,

[00:44:45] if you want to do these things, if you want to participate

[00:44:48] in your own spiritual development,

[00:44:50] I would suggest that you probably need some kind of discipline

[00:44:54] and some kind of community that will allow you to develop

[00:44:57] that in a way that makes sense to you.

[00:44:59] And I think, you know, there are other religious traditions

[00:45:02] that have that and traditions that aren't necessarily religious

[00:45:05] that allow you to spiritually develop.

[00:45:07] It's really hard to do that if you're not consistently

[00:45:10] investing the time in doing it.

[00:45:12] Self-contemplation, self-reflection, you know, reading other people,

[00:45:16] finding other sources of wisdom, finding sources of wisdom

[00:45:20] and not just reading those sources of wisdom,

[00:45:22] but finding those connective social sources of wisdom next to us.

[00:45:26] Peers, older people, younger people like Christians

[00:45:30] once upon a time might have called that accountability.

[00:45:32] That's not what I mean.

[00:45:34] I mean, genuine relationships.

[00:45:36] But you know, the idea that we're going to be able to grow

[00:45:39] when we're we're fighting something like that's what I see.

[00:45:42] And anybody who's been at that point of tension is like,

[00:45:45] don't chuck you out with the bathwater.

[00:45:47] You know, this is a journey.

[00:45:49] It takes time and you do have agency.

[00:45:51] We have agency to be able to build that up,

[00:45:54] build that story and participate with that,

[00:45:56] because if it doesn't mean something to you, then you're not going to do it.

[00:45:59] I hate yoga.

[00:46:01] My wife loves yoga every day.

[00:46:05] I walk into a room and her ass is in the air.

[00:46:09] Loves it.

[00:46:10] I have to find another.

[00:46:12] I still need physical exercise.

[00:46:14] I still need growth, right?

[00:46:16] I need to develop my body and make sure that I take care of it.

[00:46:19] I have to find another discipline because yoga is not the only discipline

[00:46:23] or form that makes sense. It doesn't make sense to me.

[00:46:26] But I can find something else to do.

[00:46:27] I can walk around the block, go outside, walk in nature, hike up a mountain.

[00:46:31] Not going to happen.

[00:46:32] But anyway, it's all to say is that I hear in the back of my head

[00:46:36] this evangelical thing that says we're cherry picking what our experience is.

[00:46:40] And I have to really like steal myself and say, no, we are creators.

[00:46:46] We're not we're not inventing, but we're getting in touch.

[00:46:49] We have to be creative in thinking about the homes

[00:46:53] that we make, the home that we make for our heart.

[00:46:56] And that's where I would go.

[00:46:57] You are now but your heart, right, is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

[00:46:59] That's a biblical quote for you.

[00:47:02] What I hear in that is this is where I begin

[00:47:06] is in my heart and how am I going to take care of that?

[00:47:08] That is the thing.

[00:47:09] I still have to make a routine of doing that.

[00:47:12] I have to dust it off once in a while,

[00:47:14] you know, change the sheets on the bed, clean the windows.

[00:47:16] There are like some work that I have to do.

[00:47:18] It doesn't just happen by accident.

[00:47:20] Yeah. So most of us had the privilege

[00:47:24] of deconstructing in private and being able to like think through these ideas

[00:47:30] and talk about them when we felt comfortable talking about them.

[00:47:34] But while this was happening for you,

[00:47:36] you were literally on a stage for the world to see.

[00:47:39] What did that feel like to deconstruct on a stage

[00:47:42] and to kind of walk away from this while you were on a stage for the world to see?

[00:47:47] Yeah, believe it or not, I actually do that work in private.

[00:47:50] I mean, that was part of the negotiation, I think,

[00:47:52] that I wouldn't have come back playing music if I wasn't ready to be open and vulnerable,

[00:47:59] because it's just kind of the way that I operate.

[00:48:01] Like I said, it's really hard for me to not put my heart on my sleeve in that sense.

[00:48:05] But I also take very seriously when I say that I do that work in private still,

[00:48:10] I still do that work in private.

[00:48:12] Like when I go to do something in public,

[00:48:15] I don't want to say that I'm crafting what I do.

[00:48:19] Like sometimes there's spur of the moment things.

[00:48:22] But there are things that I don't kind of put onto the table

[00:48:25] unless I know that I've kind of worked them out.

[00:48:27] Like, I feel like that's my responsibility,

[00:48:29] at least at this point in my career where I'm aware that being in the public has influence,

[00:48:35] whether you even want to or very good at being influential or not.

[00:48:40] Anytime we leave our houses, we are affecting other people's lives

[00:48:44] to what degree and what magnitude may vary depending on what we do for,

[00:48:48] you know, what we do or where we do that.

[00:48:50] So I take it very seriously.

[00:48:51] I'm not a big fan of like being experimental out in the public.

[00:48:55] So I do my work in private.

[00:48:58] And, you know, I think about that, too, where I'm still learning on the fly.

[00:49:01] When I first came back to doing work,

[00:49:04] I didn't know who I was going to be yet as an artist.

[00:49:07] I knew that I might be given the stage and be welcomed back.

[00:49:10] And it's turned out OK.

[00:49:11] But I didn't know what my relationship was going to be with the Christian community.

[00:49:16] I assumed that I was not going to have one.

[00:49:18] And then being an LGBTQ person situated in the space,

[00:49:23] being understood as a Christian and being at the time a very volatile

[00:49:28] third rail kind of Christian because I was gay and out.

[00:49:32] I had to figure out what I was going to say.

[00:49:34] You know, there's a lot of going on in the political scene.

[00:49:36] There still is.

[00:49:37] I still have to decide who I'm going to be in that public space

[00:49:41] and what battles I'm going to fight in that space or what things I'm going to say.

[00:49:45] I have rules in my life.

[00:49:47] Like there are some things I'm like, I'm not going to speak to that.

[00:49:50] I have private views of that.

[00:49:51] I have private work inside of that.

[00:49:53] And then sometimes I go, is it time for this private thing to become public?

[00:49:57] And if I'd say anything to that, I do have a be in my bonnet about that, too,

[00:50:00] because I think we all have very public lives now.

[00:50:03] I mean, social media has this thing where, you know,

[00:50:07] I think it can confuse us to some degree

[00:50:10] to think that we can go and digitally purge

[00:50:14] and go on our Facebook page and work out these things.

[00:50:17] And I'm like, no, that's public.

[00:50:19] Like, we really have to do this work in private.

[00:50:21] And even when you start connecting to another friend,

[00:50:25] there's still tears of privacy inside of that.

[00:50:28] But by the time that you put it on the Internet where everybody can access it,

[00:50:31] that's not a private work anymore.

[00:50:33] And it's not that I have a problem with somebody doing that,

[00:50:36] you know, purging in public or pouring out their trauma in public.

[00:50:40] But from personal experience, I would say that is not the place of care.

[00:50:44] You know, that is not the place where people are going to treat you

[00:50:46] the most kind when you're actually experimenting with an idea,

[00:50:50] challenging your own thought, healing of your own traumas

[00:50:53] and the variety of different things.

[00:50:55] I would say once you take a microphone or once you start to reveal something,

[00:50:59] it's helpful to have some idea of the direction

[00:51:02] that you're going before you start.

[00:51:05] You know, I write a set list every night.

[00:51:07] I've been playing these songs for 100 years, but I still write a set list.

[00:51:10] And I may change that set list, but I at least started out with a plan.

[00:51:31] So I want to ask about what your deconstruction felt like.

[00:51:34] There was this time, you know, when Jennifer Knapp was gone,

[00:51:38] you know, it was like I listened and then we didn't hear her anymore.

[00:51:42] And so, yeah, what was that time like for you?

[00:51:45] And what did it feel like for you?

[00:51:47] And obviously, you can share whatever you feel comfortable with.

[00:51:50] But what was that process like of leaving the Christian music scene?

[00:51:54] And what did it take for you to get there,

[00:51:56] to get to that point where you decided to walk away?

[00:51:59] The first thing I always say is, I mean, I think compared to my peers,

[00:52:04] I don't feel like I've been through deconstruction so much.

[00:52:08] But the second that I say that, I have to recognize

[00:52:12] that I spent a good five or six years out in the wilderness

[00:52:16] feeling like a complete failure.

[00:52:20] When I left Christian music, I was also I mean,

[00:52:24] when I when I left that job, I left because I was

[00:52:28] I couldn't be in a space with Christianity anymore.

[00:52:32] Like I felt like I had failed it.

[00:52:34] And it wasn't because I was gay.

[00:52:37] It was because I didn't want to participate anymore.

[00:52:39] I was I was struggling so hard against what I was now.

[00:52:43] Like at the time I was like 27 years old.

[00:52:46] And I'm like, speaking of like the public versus the private,

[00:52:49] the things that were in private, I was actually ready to do in public.

[00:52:53] Like I was ready to kind of really talk about some of the things

[00:52:57] some of the things we've talked about today, like saying,

[00:53:00] let's not say Jesus saves.

[00:53:02] Can we talk a little bit more in depth about this? Right.

[00:53:04] When I would go into subjects like that,

[00:53:06] when I was on the stage in the last few years,

[00:53:08] I was just getting beat back.

[00:53:09] I was getting beat down.

[00:53:11] I was like, maybe maybe I am just so out of my mind

[00:53:15] and understanding my faith that I genuinely don't belong here anymore.

[00:53:20] Like I was willing to go, you're right, I'm not a Christian anymore.

[00:53:24] And you're right, I've completely failed.

[00:53:26] So I spent the next few years just kind of dealing with that loss

[00:53:31] and mourning the loss and dealing with it, just really broken hearted

[00:53:35] and egotistically crushed of feeling like a failure in that regard

[00:53:40] and not career wise, but like spiritually.

[00:53:43] That was a big blow.

[00:53:45] And then after that, like maybe at the stages of mourning,

[00:53:49] I was just trying to go, well, great.

[00:53:51] Like the way that is kind of survive that is like, fuck it.

[00:53:54] Yeah, you're right. I'm out.

[00:53:55] And I wanted to like not have any of those thoughts ever again.

[00:53:59] And it took a little bit.

[00:54:01] I was living in Australia at the time, and I have some friends of mine

[00:54:03] who are Christians there who are they're not American Christians.

[00:54:08] They're not American even.

[00:54:09] It was just another it was a totally different source of wisdom

[00:54:13] from another place and another experience

[00:54:16] that was able to give me a different perspective on where I was at.

[00:54:19] And they introduced me and I started reading some now Henry Nowen

[00:54:23] and started kind of reading tons of like academic books

[00:54:27] and like basically like enjoying tearing apart like biblical truth.

[00:54:33] And like I was kind of an anti Christian for a little bit,

[00:54:36] like just really being critical of the tradition.

[00:54:38] But in the middle of reading about the tradition going,

[00:54:41] oh, this is Christianity.

[00:54:42] Like this is more this is not just where I grew up.

[00:54:46] These are other things.

[00:54:47] And all of a sudden in wanting to be away from it,

[00:54:50] I realized that I was still there and that I still had a heart

[00:54:56] and an understanding and a curiosity to be able to be in that.

[00:55:00] So I then said, well, that's private for me.

[00:55:03] That's great. I'm off the public space.

[00:55:04] But I by reengaging that spirituality and allowing

[00:55:08] giving myself permission to still be inquisitive about my mother tongue

[00:55:14] and to participate in it because I didn't have it.

[00:55:17] You know, I wasn't born Jewish.

[00:55:18] I wasn't born to an Islamic culture.

[00:55:21] If I had had that as a mother tongue, perhaps that's where I would have started.

[00:55:24] But I was like, this is unavoidable to me and I'm going to go back there.

[00:55:29] It was terrifying.

[00:55:31] It was scary. It was stages of grief.

[00:55:33] And I think to a certain point, what was most healing,

[00:55:38] I think initially was just being OK with where the chips fall.

[00:55:43] Like the one day that I do remember inside of that,

[00:55:45] they actually brought me the most peace was and I'd said this

[00:55:48] to one of my fellow Christian friends at the time.

[00:55:51] I said, I think I know what it means to fear God.

[00:55:54] And I was just like, I kind of don't care what happens next.

[00:55:57] I don't care if a piss got off.

[00:55:59] I don't care if I'm doing the wrong thing.

[00:56:02] Not that I don't care.

[00:56:03] I'm not afraid of the consequence of me owning my position.

[00:56:08] I'm not afraid of the consequence of where I am today,

[00:56:12] because I have to start by being truthful about where my heart is.

[00:56:19] I'm pissed.

[00:56:20] I'm angry.

[00:56:21] I don't want to go back, you know, to be able to say those things out loud

[00:56:25] and then to be able to go, well, why should I or what do I miss?

[00:56:30] Why am I lonely?

[00:56:31] Why am I I couldn't get to those questions

[00:56:34] until I just admitted where I was.

[00:56:37] And so that fear of God was like, I am so at the edge.

[00:56:41] You have to fucking deal with me.

[00:56:45] It's kind of the way that I was at like Jonah.

[00:56:47] And I'm like, oh, my God, this is Jonah.

[00:56:49] It's you know, I'm saying with a modern language and, you know,

[00:56:53] not very, you know, with a lot, you know, a lot of cursing and swearing.

[00:56:57] But don't tell me that we don't see characters like that

[00:57:01] in our in our tradition of Christianity.

[00:57:03] Those moments that we get to that are so critical for us to say,

[00:57:06] I am me and this is where I'm at.

[00:57:09] And right or wrong, you know, Thomas said,

[00:57:12] I believe help my unbelief.

[00:57:15] All these critical moments.

[00:57:16] What is common about them is that they are utterly true about where we are.

[00:57:20] And if we can't claim and be honest with ourselves about where we are.

[00:57:24] So that was really helpful. It was terrifying.

[00:57:27] It was a fearful moment, but at the same time, wildly liberating.

[00:57:30] And I say fear of God.

[00:57:32] And I like now I'm not afraid.

[00:57:34] I'm not afraid of God.

[00:57:37] I am excited about being involved and engaged

[00:57:41] because to me, God is no longer I'm done

[00:57:45] with the idea that God is up and down, that God is not interested in me.

[00:57:49] God is a champion like I don't know.

[00:57:51] I feel this constant urging to a call, a constant urging to participate,

[00:57:56] a constant urging to do better,

[00:57:59] not a constant fear of how I haven't done enough

[00:58:02] or a constant fear that I'm not good enough.

[00:58:05] And there's a big difference between those two things.

[00:58:09] But it's terrifying to go through it.

[00:58:10] I mean, I do have to remember it.

[00:58:12] It was very hard to go through, but those moments of being

[00:58:16] being honest and truthful about I don't want to go back

[00:58:19] or I don't want to play because it may be true for some people.

[00:58:22] I truly believe it will be true.

[00:58:24] The best healing, most incredible thing

[00:58:27] that some of your listeners may find is to genuinely

[00:58:31] not participate in Christianity anymore.

[00:58:34] Like I will guess that people will find something else

[00:58:37] to engage with spiritually and Christianity may not.

[00:58:40] It just may have ruptured or hurt or harm them too much to be able to continue.

[00:58:44] And I think that's OK, too.

[00:58:46] Yeah, I love that. That's so beautiful.

[00:58:48] You do such a good job of always holding space for where anybody is.

[00:58:52] And I love that about your work and the way that you talk about these things.

[00:58:56] So I like to end with some kind of encouragement for listeners.

[00:58:59] So could you offer some encouragement to the listeners

[00:59:02] who are maybe in that kind of angry stages of grief, part of their deconstruction

[00:59:08] or they're trying to figure out their own faith?

[00:59:10] It's a hard work. Yeah.

[00:59:12] The first thing I think of is seriously nurture the baby.

[00:59:17] I mean, let's not to infantilize any of us, but

[00:59:21] if you think about the innocence of a baby,

[00:59:25] we care for it, we cuddle it, we don't judge it.

[00:59:29] We just we hope to nurture it and have it survive this point in time

[00:59:34] till it can grow up and be walking and, you know, changing the world.

[00:59:39] But we have to nurture that.

[00:59:41] We have to care for it.

[00:59:42] And, you know, depending on where we are, like I think that that's called for

[00:59:46] is to be able to nurture ourselves enough to be able to care for ourselves

[00:59:49] allow us a space to do that.

[00:59:51] That's where I would start.

[00:59:53] And then in that nurturing, listening to it, you know,

[00:59:55] listening to our inner selves and being along that one of the most

[00:59:59] helpful books for me, I'm actually getting ready to do this kind of

[01:00:03] not a book study, but we're going to be talking about this

[01:00:05] in one of my Patreon groups.

[01:00:07] We have like little discussions like this.

[01:00:09] But one of my favorite books from Henry Nowen,

[01:00:11] Henry Nowen's book called Reaching Out, and it's about three movements

[01:00:15] of spiritual growth.

[01:00:17] But the first one is from loneliness to solitude.

[01:00:21] And it's basically about that self work and that contemplative private space,

[01:00:26] which when we're marginalized or when we're hurt, when we're alone,

[01:00:30] it can be a very isolating, lonely place.

[01:00:34] And the work of transforming that into privacy, into solitude,

[01:00:39] into a work where we actually have the space and the sacred zone

[01:00:44] to be able to do something where we're actually, quote unquote,

[01:00:47] nurturing the wet baby.

[01:00:49] The next movement of that, which I love and I actually hated

[01:00:53] initially from now and was from hostility to hospitality.

[01:00:58] Because when we start shifting from our loneliness, we don't feel exiled,

[01:01:02] but we feel like we're doing the work.

[01:01:04] We actually then want to bring that work out and connect people

[01:01:07] after we've been in private.

[01:01:08] And that's a difference.

[01:01:09] If we've been running away to a cave and trying to hide away,

[01:01:12] then somebody comes in and knocks on the door

[01:01:14] and we can be really hostile to that.

[01:01:16] And the last one, which I always forget because I'm so far away from there.

[01:01:19] I think it's from illusion to prayer.

[01:01:22] And so it's connecting to ourselves, connecting to others, connecting to God.

[01:01:27] So it's a lovely book.

[01:01:28] It's it's a small read.

[01:01:30] But I read that book 25 years ago and I'm still working on trying

[01:01:33] to understand the third movement.

[01:01:35] So that's where I would leave it. I love that.

[01:01:37] Thank you so much.

[01:01:38] I will link all the places where people can connect with you.

[01:01:41] But is there anything that you want to highlight and make sure I get in there?

[01:01:45] Not Jennifer Knapp, comes like the best place to go.

[01:01:48] But the second place of as a Patreon dot com forward slash Jennifer Knapp.

[01:01:53] I think it is. It's really like, yeah, it's just a place

[01:01:56] where I'm kind of hanging out a lot.

[01:01:58] I do social hours and hang out and we do Zoom chats every month.

[01:02:01] I do an online show every month.

[01:02:04] And now I've just recently added doing a thing we're calling Faith

[01:02:07] Exchange because they do have a lot of like it's like a private chat, really.

[01:02:10] We're doing a Zoom call, but it's mostly just a bunch of us

[01:02:13] getting together and, yeah, just kind of talking through our spirituality,

[01:02:17] sharing our wisdom with each other.

[01:02:19] And it's not a Bible study.

[01:02:21] It's I'm not preaching or anything like that.

[01:02:22] It's pretty loose.

[01:02:23] But it is a very specific zone where we all understand

[01:02:27] that this is a kind of conversation that we're going to have.

[01:02:29] So, yeah, those are all those kinds of things to do.

[01:02:31] But you can always find me at the dot com. Amazing.

[01:02:34] Well, thank you so much for being here.

[01:02:35] This was the best dream come true for me.

[01:02:38] So thank you. Thank you so much.

[01:02:40] Well, thank you for for leading me in a dynamic conversation, Maggie.

[01:02:43] I really appreciate that. Thank you.

[01:02:46] Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello, Deconstructionists.

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[01:03:11] underscore deconstructionists, where together we are building community

[01:03:14] post evangelicalism.

[01:03:16] Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast.

[01:03:20] And when the sweet little bop

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[01:03:27] Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us.

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