20: Leaving and Leaving Again with Sam Sellers

[00:00:00] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:00:38] share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what

[00:00:42] it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in

[00:00:46] ourselves. I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid

[00:00:51] and most of all that you are not alone on this journey, you are good, you are loved

[00:00:56] and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:00:58] Hello Deconstructionists, anyway okay here we go.

[00:01:06] Sam is a queer, I can't!

[00:01:12] I'm going to try again and I'm going to get it this time.

[00:01:28] Sam is a queer, Aussie therapist specializing in religious trauma. She's a religious

[00:01:32] trauma survivor, a wife, mama, to Kavoodalnaia and lover of stories. In her work she

[00:01:38] is equal parts compassion, sarcasm and humor providing a welcome and non-judgmental space

[00:01:43] where you can laugh, cry, scream or all three in one session. She has her own podcast called

[00:01:49] Beyond the Surface where she amplifies the voices and stories of those navigating religious

[00:01:53] trauma and deconstruction. So welcome Sam, thank you for being here.

[00:01:57] Thanks for having me, Maggie. We were saying on your podcast because I was just on yours

[00:02:04] recently and we were saying that we just kind of feel like sisters with these parallel

[00:02:08] podcast journeys that's been really, really nice so this is so exciting to have you here

[00:02:13] and to do a little guest swap together. So yeah, this is such a treat.

[00:02:17] I like to have guests start with a little bit about their background usually about what

[00:02:23] church they grew up in but I know you didn't grow up religious so I'm curious how you grew

[00:02:27] up and then also how you found the church along the way. So yeah I did not grow up in a religious

[00:02:34] family which when people sort of think about who the people who knew me when I was a hard

[00:02:43] core black and white Christian are always really surprised but yeah so I grew up mostly

[00:02:52] with just my mom for the first decade of my life and my first experience of anything

[00:03:03] religious was at a Catholic primary school. I did have like a little bit of scripture before that but

[00:03:11] yeah my first experience of of church was at a Catholic primary school and I

[00:03:18] there was just an immediate like drawing to it. I think I would say that I am a naturally

[00:03:27] quite spiritual and intuitive person anyway but I was also just at a Catholic school coming from

[00:03:36] a non-Catholic family you very quickly realize that you are unlike the rest of the people around you

[00:03:45] and so it was you know I talk about it a lot it's one of the first of many times where I felt like

[00:03:55] was the other amongst the the common and so I was like well you know what I am just going to

[00:04:05] be the best at religion because everybody else is Catholic and and I am not so I'm just going

[00:04:14] to outline all of them and I did and I joke that at the end of your six that I was you know how

[00:04:24] at schools at the end of schooling they do like most likely to be xy and z. I was voted most likely

[00:04:32] to become the first female poet. Yeah Sam which probably tells you a lot about the fact that

[00:04:42] I am an all of nothing kind of person generally I don't do things at a heart and so that was probably

[00:04:51] my first introduction to anything religious but yeah it was I would later make the distinction

[00:04:59] that it was it was very much religion as opposed to my personal face which came a few years later

[00:05:09] so that was your primary school experience in a Catholic setting did you identify as Catholic at that

[00:05:16] point? I probably wouldn't have I don't even know that at that point I really even understood

[00:05:27] that you could identify as different things it was just that I I just liked church really which is

[00:05:35] I you know I walk back into a Catholic church now and I like break out in hives and sweat

[00:05:42] so I have a panic attack but at the time it was it was comforting to me I had had a lot of

[00:05:50] bullying which is why I landed in the Catholic primary school because I needed to change schools

[00:05:56] and so you know this idea of God was really enticing and really comforting but it was a Catholic

[00:06:06] school so there was not a lot of focus on Jesus it was very much about God and confession and prayer

[00:06:14] and behavior and is the Catholic church where you feel like the bulk of your religious harm

[00:06:21] comes from or did you venture into other other branches yeah you're so rich I wish that was

[00:06:30] where all of the trauma gave wrong so I find it really difficult even now still to talk about

[00:06:38] my faith journey without using overtly Christian language I still have not found that balance

[00:06:47] so I guess my coming to Christ and you know salvation prayer time would have been you know sort

[00:06:57] of early high school and it came out of like really it's probably the most wholesome part of my story

[00:07:04] I guess which one that I was just a really sad depressed teenager in my scripture teacher

[00:07:12] was really beautiful and she just you know the only way that I can sort of explain it is that

[00:07:19] rather than teaching me about Jesus she showed me the love of Jesus and she just came along

[00:07:24] side me and yeah she just made me feel seen and loved and so that's how I guess my personal journey

[00:07:36] with faith started well I think this is a positive and a negative of the church that

[00:07:44] religion in this community or even just the idea of Jesus can be so helpful in your kind of

[00:07:49] lowest moments but I also think that it sets people up for the church to pray on them

[00:07:56] the R.E.Y. pray on them and and just kind of like find you at your lowest and pull you into this

[00:08:04] harmful toxic theology not that I think it's always intentional by any means but yeah it's just

[00:08:11] something that the church can do well or something that like Jesus can be so comforting in your lowest

[00:08:18] moments but also it can be kind of what's the word for that like predatory. That's right. Yeah it's a bit

[00:08:25] of a double-edged sword almost because you know I this would have been the part in my testimony

[00:08:32] where I would say that like Jesus saved me eternally and literally because yeah I don't know that I

[00:08:39] would be sitting here having this conversation with you if that hadn't happened but I also look at

[00:08:48] that and the church at large and see how people's vulnerabilities are almost used against them

[00:08:57] and like a drawing card. So yeah I would agree I think it's a bit of a double-edged sword there.

[00:09:05] So at that point is religion feeling comforting and like a healthy place for you at the moment.

[00:09:14] Yeah I think for me like I said I don't do things at home so as soon as I pull the

[00:09:20] Christian that was it like on and I was I was the lack of noxious black and white Christian I was like

[00:09:31] right Jesus has saved me and now I'm going to save everybody else.

[00:09:37] Like that was me and I look back and I go yikes you look awful.

[00:09:45] Like good intention and good heart but like awful but yeah it was it was my whole identity

[00:09:54] I went all in so like everything changed but I am still at this point not in my what became my home church

[00:10:05] for probably another year I did go to an Anglican church but then some stuff went down with them

[00:10:14] quite publicly and my mum decided not to let me go to church anymore because she thought I'm

[00:10:21] might have been a bad influence and little black and white 14 year old me. I thought I was being

[00:10:30] persecuted and I was like the people who are the cutest for my faith right. I look back at that

[00:10:36] and I go oh so naive and so I just doubled down I was just like right okay really if I'm

[00:10:45] not going to be allowed to go to church well then I'm just going to like I'm just going to go

[00:10:50] deeper and like I don't know how I could have went all in more but and so yeah I think maybe around

[00:10:57] six months or so would have been when I was like I think I was still 14 at this point.

[00:11:04] I had a friend who was at a different church it was a Christian brother in church which I don't

[00:11:11] actually know whether the US would have that by name. It's not familiar to me I was going to ask you

[00:11:17] what yeah I thought this denomination was we might have it and I might just not be familiar with it.

[00:11:22] Yeah I think the exclusive brethren is probably more well known around the world as in like

[00:11:29] I think their now known as like the Plymouth Christian Brother in church but essentially they were

[00:11:36] the exclusive brethren church and we were like the non-exclusive but ultimately

[00:11:43] relatively conservative still like very legalistic, very conservative, very Bible is literal

[00:11:52] we take everything as it is. Women don't preach, women don't pray, men other leaders,

[00:11:59] we had elders so we didn't have a pastor, we had a team of elders and essentially out of

[00:12:05] friend who was going to that church and she took it upon herself to ask my mom if her and her

[00:12:13] family picked me up every Sunday morning if I could go to church with them and my mom knew the

[00:12:19] family and that's kind of why I landed there but yes super super conservative. So how long were you

[00:12:27] in this church? So I was therefore from about 14 to yeah 25 maybe by two year window where I left

[00:12:40] I colloquially called out my two years of rebellion but barring that two years I was there

[00:12:49] yeah for about 10 years and you know they're the 10 years that we eyes a therapist look at

[00:12:57] and go you know they're the identity forming years where you work out who you want to be in the world

[00:13:04] and the older I got the more obnoxious I got as a question and I know that anybody who knew

[00:13:15] me during this time period would probably agree with me and probably would not want to say it

[00:13:21] but I'm saying it so they can. I can relate to this so much I'm like oh my high school self so

[00:13:29] embarrassing yeah yeah she tried so hard yeah but still so embarrassing yeah it's almost a little

[00:13:37] like I look back on it a little bit and a bit more to fight and to be fair you know deeply ashamed

[00:13:44] of some of the stuff that I was a participant in particularly around I guess I run a click

[00:13:52] considering I'm a retired woman this will be surprised but like the anti-gay pro live

[00:14:00] sort of very binary black and white thinking and I look back in and I go and that's you know

[00:14:09] probably one of the hardest parts of my deconstruction was seeing I guess all of the

[00:14:17] all of the harm and all of the I mean all of the bullshit that I had like partake in in willingly

[00:14:25] and the harm that I had perpetuated onto other people and particularly other people in my community

[00:14:34] but you know I also look back with a bit of compassion as well that you know if it wasn't for

[00:14:44] past version of me I wouldn't have I wouldn't be the current version of me either but yeah when you're

[00:14:51] in that it's it's like tunnel vision. What are some ways that you have worked to reconcile

[00:15:00] some of those past actions that you feel ashamed of because we all have them right coming out of church

[00:15:06] and we we stood so far of in what we believed that we all did things that now it's hard to

[00:15:12] know what to do with that past version of ourselves so I'm wondering what what you do with that.

[00:15:17] Well I'm not like being biased or anything but therapy helped and I guess you know compassion

[00:15:27] self-compassion is I have found is one of the biggest aspects and one of the most caparts of

[00:15:35] deconstruction because if you don't have that self-compassion it's really easy to just

[00:15:41] well-low in that who was I wanted I do all of this wasted time, all of the harm that was perpetuated

[00:15:51] the system that you upheld and so yeah I think self-compassion is super dupe key in terms of that

[00:16:01] and just going with you know I only had a certain percentage of information at that point

[00:16:08] that I do now and I was doing the best that I could with the information that I did have at the time

[00:16:19] and now I have more information and so I need to do more with that and so I find that I've

[00:16:27] runnically probably one of the best things was I just went like knee deep into advocacy for the

[00:16:34] queer community and particular and now working with religious trauma survivors and those who are

[00:16:42] going through deconstruction helps greatly in the part of me that feels that I almost need to

[00:16:51] make up for some of that in terms of you know I perpetuated a system of harm for a really long time

[00:16:59] and so now I'm going to do the opposite and I'm going to try and be a part of the system that

[00:17:06] heals as opposed to harms but it is not something that goes away overnight and there are days where

[00:17:16] it's stronger than others especially when like a Facebook memory will pop up or

[00:17:22] something like that that just like takes you back into who you were during that time period

[00:17:29] but I find that using it as I guess fuel to do good in the world now is the most productive thing

[00:17:39] that I can do. Well I think too I'm thinking about how comforting it felt for you at the time when

[00:17:45] you're a teacher, took you in and showed you the love of Jesus and what that felt like and there's

[00:17:51] there was something that that version of you needed that church was giving you that you didn't have

[00:17:57] somewhere else and so just to validate the part of you that found something helpful in church too

[00:18:03] and like you said now you have more information you will do better with more information but it

[00:18:09] seems like part of you needed the church at that time. Yeah absolutely and I also go you know I was

[00:18:17] I was a teenager for most of that decade also and so you know we don't expect I will

[00:18:24] I certainly don't expect teenagers to have the maturity emotionally mentally spiritually

[00:18:33] to know what is you know right wrong healthy unalty toxic knot in the world they're

[00:18:43] impressionable and and I had some very conservative people around me during that time and

[00:18:53] when I think any teenager in that sort of environment is going to

[00:18:58] full prey to that impression and an emotional manipulation. Yeah I'm wondering what your mom was thinking

[00:19:08] at this time if you're the only person in your family like extended family too maybe like

[00:19:16] you're the only person in your family circle who is finding church who is in church and I'm wondering

[00:19:23] what that felt like for you what you think maybe there impression of that was. Yeah I think it was

[00:19:28] a bit of a mixed bag. I am still the only person who even in my extended family who have

[00:19:37] probably willingly went to church and that wasn't for a funeral or a wedding. I am largely

[00:19:44] I would describe myself as I guess the black sheep in the family anyway so I find that I am quite

[00:19:51] different to everybody anyway but yeah it was a bit of a mixed bag I think

[00:19:57] for the most part it wasn't a huge deal you know I wasn't I wasn't cutting school I wasn't

[00:20:05] smoking I wasn't drinking I wasn't warm I guess all of the things that parents would see as

[00:20:11] stereotypically bad for your team age to be doing. I went to youth group and I went to church and

[00:20:17] I guess the older I got the more involved I got as well and so church on a Sunday and youth group

[00:20:27] on a Friday turned to you know Bible studies and worship practice and I would be preparing for

[00:20:35] Sunday school and all of those sorts of things and so for the most part in involved you know my

[00:20:43] parents taking me and I guess the logistics probably got more annoying than the actual going to church

[00:20:52] but yeah it was not a it was not a huge deal they never saw it as like overtly bad

[00:21:01] and it was probably just yeah I think the logistics was probably more annoying than anything else

[00:21:07] yeah and they didn't they didn't feel like it was dangerous because I know your mom stopped you

[00:21:13] from going to the Anglican church at one point because she felt like there was something harmful about

[00:21:18] it but she didn't have that sense with this one. Yeah no I think with the Anglican church the

[00:21:24] minister had gotten done for some pretty dodgy stuff. I think it was largely that she didn't really

[00:21:33] want me wrapped up in any of that drama and less about the fact that she saw me going to church

[00:21:40] as a bad. I saw it I guess from my perspective it was I had a you know a great

[00:21:51] safety complex so I wanted to talk about Jesus all the time I was the person at Christmas

[00:21:58] who would want to buy all of the overtly Christian Christmas decorations and Christmas cards

[00:22:06] and in my mom and I had a tradition every year and we would decorate the house like every room

[00:22:12] how to do for theme like Christmas was a big thing in our home and my contribution was that I really

[00:22:19] made a point every year of putting something overtly Christian on my bedroom door. Most of the time

[00:22:25] it was something along the lines of don't forget the Christ and Christmas and you know making sure

[00:22:34] that my family would not eat red meat on good Friday and you know all of those sorts of things

[00:22:42] it wasn't ever like let's sit down I need to tell you about Jesus but it was there was always

[00:22:49] those subtle things that I would try and slip in there to remind them you are not saved.

[00:22:57] So we need to work. We're with this sick which never happened and my family not being Christians

[00:23:08] really messed with me when I was a bit older I did and this is like a whole thing so I was

[00:23:16] sort of like summarized that I did what's got a gospel gap here okay so it was with the Sydney

[00:23:23] Anglicans who in Australia are known as being extremely fundamental very very conservative

[00:23:33] and very high control which I did not know when I went to do this but we had been taught

[00:23:40] this concept in church but it was the first time that I had ever been taught this particular doctrine

[00:23:46] quite explicitly and I was taught the doctrine of predestination which like messed with my little 18 year

[00:23:55] old mind again sitting in a lecture room of 38 year olds 28 of them probably all from other

[00:24:08] Anglican families and church families many pastors kids things like that so another time of

[00:24:16] feeling very different to the people around me but sitting there being taught the doctrine of predestination

[00:24:24] and I was terrified I was terrified because I was like I was equally terrified and equally like

[00:24:34] well like what's the fucking point then? What is point like if everything is predestined then

[00:24:42] like what is like what's the point of prayer what's the point of salvation and like trying to convert

[00:24:48] people and like if everything is predestined including the fate of our souls then what is the point

[00:24:55] of anything and that was probably like the first that's what sparked what I call my two year rebellion

[00:25:03] was sort of spiral as spiraled in that year which was designed to you know I went there wanting to

[00:25:13] no more and learn more about God and about the Bible I did it having deferred a bachelor of

[00:25:21] theology I was going to go to uni to do a theological degree serving and full-time ministry was the goal

[00:25:29] this this reference is actually probably more relevant for the US because I think it probably

[00:25:35] wouldn't be more prominent over there you know the TV show seventh haven yeah that's what I wanted

[00:25:41] I wanted to be the the preacher's wife with the seven kids where everything revolved around

[00:25:49] around church and around faith and around ministry and and I looked back at that and I go

[00:25:55] all that would have been a disaster had that actually happened like stubborn full-blown tourists

[00:26:02] absolutely slithering in a whole what's come happening was never ever going to be a submissive wife

[00:26:12] never not going to happen but you know marriage is put on pedestal so that's what you want and

[00:26:20] that's what you pray for but yeah learning about predestination spiraled my year out of control and I

[00:26:27] started to question things like gender and you know not my gender the role of gender in the church

[00:26:35] in terms of like the role of women in the church and you know maybe the Bible is not literal like

[00:26:42] maybe there it like this is a story to represent something like maybe this is a history book

[00:26:49] and things like that are not the inspired word of God and when that was like my whole identity

[00:26:58] it was it was a lot and I was met with questions were not encouraged in my church well

[00:27:07] no I'll rephrase that the right questions were encouraged as long as the questions didn't

[00:27:14] lead you to doubt and as long as the questions weren't about disrespecting authority or questioning

[00:27:20] the people who were preaching that it was fine but the questions around like predestination

[00:27:28] were met with statements like well that's just that's just what we believe we just

[00:27:37] trapped that God weighs a higher and more knowledgeable in hours and I'm sitting there and I'm

[00:27:42] going yeah that's not good enough for me and I think leave remember a time where I was in an

[00:27:49] elders home having dinner with him and his wife and having this going around and around in circles

[00:27:55] about predestination and his wife came over to me with a coffee and was like why don't we just go

[00:28:02] and sit on the couch and leave the academic stuff to the men oh yeah yeah I know and I

[00:28:09] I'm just like oh that was the moment for me that I was like yeah I'm not okay with this

[00:28:17] I'm not okay to not ask questions just because I was assigned female at birth like

[00:28:23] I'm not okay with that and so I left and I left super abruptly I didn't tell anybody

[00:28:30] and I still very much ascribed to the notion that you could not be a Christian if you were not

[00:28:38] in church so those two were in mesh and synonymous for me and so I left church and subsequently

[00:28:46] I felt that I then had to leave God and my faith and then I that's what sort of sparked my

[00:28:54] two years of rebellion where I I guess I did everything that I was not allowed to do in the church

[00:29:02] and it was probably not the way that I would have liked to finally embrace my sexuality but

[00:29:09] it's how it happened and it was probably not even you know I used the wedding brace but

[00:29:15] realistically it was just that I I probably weaponized my sexuality that I knew that people would

[00:29:22] be concerned for my the state of my heart and that it would make people mad and so the

[00:29:29] obnoxious Christian turned into I guess the really reckless selfish non-Christian for two years

[00:29:39] and I don't necessarily look back on that two years with huge amounts of joy because I heard a

[00:29:46] lot of people by leaving but it was a stark contrast I guess to the to when I left for good

[00:29:55] because I went back. Yeah so how long did you go back for after your two year, two year rebellion?

[00:30:02] Yeah so I went back and I was probably there for another two or three years and went all in again,

[00:30:10] went back and my very first day and I laugh about this because it's still one of the most

[00:30:17] embarrassing and modifying experiences and I don't know what else to do but laugh.

[00:30:22] Well my very first day back I sort of snuck in and just wanted to sort of blend into the crowd

[00:30:29] and you can't really do that in a small church with glass doors, but I tried never the last

[00:30:37] and the guy leading a service who I was relatively close with prior to that decided to announce

[00:30:45] to the whole congregation, the prodigal daughter has returned. And with those words?

[00:30:51] Yeah wow yeah and I just remember going oh like you basically just like branded me as a

[00:31:01] giant fucker in front of the old church and was just like oh we told you so like we told you

[00:31:10] it would be back I mean that's the story of the prodigal son is the like you just went and screwed

[00:31:16] everything up and now is back and we're good to go again but yeah so I then sort of within a

[00:31:24] couple of months I was serving again I was leading youth group I was leading worship Sunday

[00:31:28] school doing all of the vital studies teaching primary school scripture and I was like knee

[00:31:35] deep in ministry again and in the third year of my counseling degree I met my now wife and that was

[00:31:45] the beginning of the end really and I and I probably went into that relatively naively in that I

[00:31:53] really had hoped that these people who were my family and some of them I would have been closer

[00:32:00] with than my actual family and and so I when I say that they were my family I don't necessarily

[00:32:07] just mean in my church family I mean like they'd actually were my family and I had naively hoped

[00:32:15] that they loved me enough to look past it I guess and that you know I knew I wouldn't be able

[00:32:23] to serve I knew that they would not let me do ministry once I told them and I had a formal meeting

[00:32:31] with the elders that I initiated that was awful is probably the only word that comes to mind

[00:32:41] where I was met with face to face I guess the judgment and the hatred that we talk about

[00:32:51] the Christians and the church at large has towards the queer community and I was met with that

[00:32:57] face to face and so you know I didn't necessarily shift out of church I was they forced my hand

[00:33:07] they were never going to say you want to allow back but being allowed back came with stipulations of

[00:33:14] you know regular weekly meetings with an elder around healthy relationships and biblical living

[00:33:21] and so I was like okay so you're not gonna kick me out but you basically gonna make it really

[00:33:27] hard for me to stay essentially so I left 2.0 and this time it was really different obviously

[00:33:38] it was not willing and I remember that evening just like sitting on my bed sobbing I was just like

[00:33:48] I did not know what to do it was like the ground underneath me everything that was my center of

[00:33:54] gravity everything that was foundational for me was just ripped out from underneath me and I had

[00:34:00] absolutely no idea what to do and I desperately tried to like cling onto my faith at that point

[00:34:11] for probably another 2 years my now wife and I sort of church hopped trying to find

[00:34:19] a I thought that church was going to be placed that grounded me and that would have given us

[00:34:29] I had still very I guess traditional views of a relationship so even though I went

[00:34:35] dating a woman you know there was still conflict around the fact that like I wanted her to lead

[00:34:41] and I wanted her to step up and I wanted to do Bible studies together and I still very much wanted

[00:34:47] that traditional heterosexual relationship with spoiler doesn't work in a relationship like it was

[00:34:57] 1000 and so you know we tried desperately to find a church and it never eventually did

[00:35:06] every time when every time we got mistaken for sisters and we had to sort of correct them and say

[00:35:15] honor like wearing a relationship you can instantly see them you can see their face change

[00:35:23] like it's automatic and then not only do they stop talking to you you start to notice that

[00:35:31] that spreads and nobody else is doing good at say hello and we then look at each other awkwardly and go

[00:35:39] right well now seems like a really good time to go home because this is really fucking awkward

[00:35:45] and so I think I probably started deconstructing at that point I just did not have the language

[00:35:52] for it because we got married in a church we still had quite a religious ceremony we got married

[00:35:59] in the United Church which in Australia are known for being pretty affirming and um I mean

[00:36:06] my former church called them like anything but actual Christians really you know they're not real

[00:36:13] Christians they're liberal Christians in Australia liberal means something very different to you guys

[00:36:19] but yeah I mean we got married in a church and it was a really beautiful ceremony that

[00:36:26] celebrated I guess both our love for each other and our love for God at the time but I remember starting

[00:36:34] to have questions around like why am I so desperate to stay a part of a system that absolutely

[00:36:44] hates who I am like why why is that such an integral part for me and then I started the

[00:36:52] therapy with somebody who was an ex minister who was kicked out of the church because of being

[00:36:59] queer affirming and things like that and so started actually I guess realizing that there was a lot of

[00:37:07] really messed up shit that had happened along the way and a lot of harm and a lot of grief I had

[00:37:15] my two best friends tell me that they wouldn't not only they wouldn't stand next to me on my wedding day

[00:37:21] but they wouldn't calm and the grief around that like I was inconsolable for really long time

[00:37:30] and to have people I guess turn on you and realize that that love in that sense of belonging

[00:37:40] was only ever whilst you suited the malt that they wanted you to be I guess that transactional

[00:37:48] sense of love and belonging is a really painful form of grief to have and yeah so my therapist was

[00:37:56] the first person who used the term deconstruction when I had no idea what it was and I ironically

[00:38:03] don't tend to use the term personally tend to use the term detangling because the image in my

[00:38:11] mind of what it is like is like a giant bowl of like tangled Christmas lights where realistically

[00:38:21] if I had my way I'd guess would love to throw it in the bin and just by holding instead of Christmas

[00:38:26] light the Christmas lights in my life and I can't do that so instead I have to go light by light

[00:38:33] and try and detangle it and try and I guess make something expansive come from something that was

[00:38:43] really narrow and contract and conforming and constructing deconstruction to use that term is

[00:38:52] was and is still happening it's not something that ever I think goes away but yeah I think you know

[00:39:01] it was messy is probably the first where they come to mind in terms of my deconstruction because

[00:39:07] it was probably the first time even though I was married to a woman where I really had to come face to

[00:39:13] face with what I believed and start to pull apart all of that and when you're identity is so

[00:39:21] intrinsically wrapped up with this label of Christian to even consider taking that label off

[00:39:29] is really disorienting and destabilizing because I had had no other label up until that point.

[00:39:37] Well I'm wondering when we first started talking about the years that you were in church 14 to 25ish

[00:39:43] you said in your own therapy work or like as a therapist you talk about how those are really

[00:39:49] identity forming years, how did being in the church in that time form your identity and do

[00:39:56] see connections to who you are now like how have you kind of how did your identity take shape then

[00:40:01] and what has remained true for you? Yeah I think regardless of whether I was in or out of the church

[00:40:09] I have always had a heart for people and my deep empathy and compassion for humans and their

[00:40:18] experiences has always been there it just looked different in different settings and so

[00:40:26] there is a lot that I look back on my time at church. I don't I mean yes it was like

[00:40:33] there is trauma there and there is pain and there is harm but it is I don't think that anything

[00:40:38] is all bad and there are aspects of that time that brought great joy and I learnt a lot about

[00:40:47] I guess serving other people but one of the biggest things was that I just learned nothing about

[00:40:55] serving myself and so you know I guess like I said at the beginning I would say that I have always

[00:41:04] been a relatively spiritual and intuitive person that's always been there but it got suppressed when

[00:41:13] I was in the church because you are not to lean on your own understanding less of me more of

[00:41:20] Jesus if I had a dollar for every time I had the term you know die to self I wouldn't need to work right now.

[00:41:30] So I guess during that time my intuition I would have labeled as the Holy Spirit and so

[00:41:38] it probably impacted that part of my identity and I guess the opposite capacity of my heart for people

[00:41:46] that got amplified and my intuition got suppressed during that time. I mean obviously my queer

[00:41:54] identity got suppressed at every turn I used my straight I call it my straight passing privilege

[00:42:02] because they don't look queer I guess in a stereotypical sense and I was attracted to both

[00:42:08] genders both men and women and so I used that to my advantage. I was like great if I can just

[00:42:14] like find a guy then I can just forget about this. That didn't happen but that was my plan and so

[00:42:22] that just kept getting suppressed and suppressed and by the time I actually had the space to do anything

[00:42:30] with it I had no idea what to do with it so my sense of like healthy sexuality not just as a queer

[00:42:39] woman but just as a woman who has sexuality and a sex drive and you know things like that was

[00:42:48] you know purity culture is we don't call it purity culture in Australia but it is that and so I think

[00:42:55] that the time where you realize who you want to be in the world and yet everything is just about

[00:43:02] you not being you in the world and you just being Jesus in the world. What are some ways that

[00:43:08] you've connected with your intuition now? Yeah I think it's probably I actually just needed to

[00:43:15] it started with just trusting being able to make a decision more than anything it was I it actually

[00:43:23] just started out as like decision making like trusting that I wanted you know coke over Pepsi or

[00:43:32] something like that and actually just really simple basic things because I was like do I like this

[00:43:38] because I actually like it or do I like this because I'm supposed to like it and that's part of

[00:43:44] the mold and the mask but connecting with my actual intuition has probably come about by I guess

[00:43:53] finding a new sense of spirituality and one that's not connected in organized religion and is

[00:44:01] more just I find it I don't know whether this is gonna go off track but I find it astounding that

[00:44:07] some people don't have like an internal dialogue or the point my wife doesn't need a stance

[00:44:14] me I'm like how do you make any decisions like you just not have a conversation with yourself

[00:44:19] in your brain it's like no and I'm like how is this and why I've realized that actually

[00:44:29] I use my intuition all the time I just never labeled it as that and so I guess tapping into

[00:44:38] things that I had always been drawn to as a child before I found religion like crystals and

[00:44:45] wick art and oracle cards and that sort of mysticism side of spirituality was always my favorite

[00:44:54] show when I was young was charmed like it like that was as and I mean I'm not sure an

[00:45:00] a year old should have been watching John but anyway it was that was always something that I was

[00:45:07] drawn to and it got suppressed really quick because that's evil spirits and so I think

[00:45:15] just branching out and finding curiosity has allowed me to quieten the world and quieten

[00:45:28] the church is influenced and organized religion and listen to the things that were in between

[00:45:37] all of the noise but for anybody who was finding that hard that takes a lot of

[00:45:44] leg it takes a lot of practice and I'm still not always good at it and sometimes you know

[00:45:52] I naturally as as a human lean into very black and white thinking so for me to step outside of

[00:46:01] that binary perspective was difficult and still is at times difficult because I like things to

[00:46:09] make sense but I think leaning into the curiosity and to the idler know is something that has

[00:46:17] allowed me to listen to the in between moments and I find in the in between moments is where

[00:46:25] my intuition lies yeah I love that well I like to end with some kind of encouragement to people

[00:46:32] who are out there and deconstructing and you kind of were just offering that but do you have any

[00:46:37] other words of encouragement for people who are in the thrills of their deconstruction?

[00:46:42] Welcome to the shit show it's fun it's messy but I mean it weren't always feel fun it probably

[00:46:52] will always feel messy but messy can be fun everybody is really we are nice we're not crazy

[00:47:00] church hating you know x Christians we're not better we're not people who were you know well they

[00:47:07] were never real Christians anyway we're not those people and find new community and Instagram was

[00:47:15] the first place that I I did that and I yeah I think slow is fast try not to do everything all at once

[00:47:25] you know I chatted with David Haywood the naked pastor for my podcast and you know he said

[00:47:33] deconstruction is a way of life and I firmly agree once you start deconstructing you won't stop

[00:47:41] they think once you stop you becoming not because then you stop I mean deconstruction is just

[00:47:47] critical thinking really and there is nothing wrong with that there's nothing wrong with thinking

[00:47:54] critically about the world and the way that you see the world the therapist in me wants to say

[00:48:01] find a therapist but find a therapist who works with deconstruction or religious trauma because

[00:48:07] it is largely misunderstood space and we don't want people to get retro-rotized but also do the

[00:48:16] work there is no way around that and that's not a sunshine and rainbows he's an encouragement

[00:48:24] but the reality is that once you start doing the work you'll feel better the first long as you

[00:48:32] sit in the anger and the resentment and the bitterness if that's what you're feeling the worse

[00:48:37] you will feel if we sit in the fire long enough we'll get burned so doing the work is not to be like

[00:48:45] well you know suck it up that's not what I'm saying but doing the work is just just start

[00:48:51] chipping away at that process and eventually you will find your people and sometimes they will

[00:48:59] be across the world and that's okay it is not as scary as what I'm sure you feel it is now

[00:49:07] yeah if people are looking for community and want to connect with you and what you do

[00:49:13] out in the world where can they find you so I am one most social media's but I mainly live on

[00:49:20] Instagram at anchored counseling services and like you said at the beginning I obviously have a podcast

[00:49:27] as well I also have a therapy podcast called Inside the Therapy Room and yeah I work with

[00:49:35] people worldwide except the US and Canada sorry that's an insurance thing you guys are crazy insurance

[00:49:42] regulations but yeah I mainly live on Instagram come and say hello I love meeting people all around

[00:49:51] the world and I think if you are looking for something in particular there are plenty of people

[00:49:57] on Instagram who will point you in the right direction of what you need yeah absolutely and I will

[00:50:02] link all of your all your links in the show notes so people can find your Instagram and listen to your

[00:50:09] podcasts so thank you so much for being here this was so nice to chat with you Sam thanks nagging

[00:50:17] thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists if you enjoyed this episode

[00:50:22] or any others please like follow or subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it leave us a

[00:50:27] review so other people know what this show is all about if you have any questions comments for

[00:50:32] parts of your own experience you'd like to share on the podcast you can email me at hello.deconst

[00:50:37] at jmail.com and as always you can find me over on Instagram at hello under sport deconstructionists

[00:50:43] where together we are building community posts even jellicosum huge thank you to Amy Azara for

[00:50:49] writing the theme song for this podcast and when the sweet little box inevitably gets stuck in your

[00:50:54] head I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's here with you thanks to all our guests

[00:50:59] for sharing these parts of their stories with us and of course to you for listening see you next time