19: Religious Harm Recovery with Megan von Fricken

[00:00:01] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie, the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:00:38] share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's

[00:00:42] been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:00:48] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and

[00:00:51] most of all that you are not alone on this journey. You are good, you are loved, and

[00:00:56] you are worthy just as you are. Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:01:01] Okay, take three. My guest today is Megan Von Fricken. Megan is a licensed psychotherapist

[00:01:10] and religious harm recovery coach who was indoctrinated into fundamentalist evangelical

[00:01:15] Christianity at an early age. Her work in the mental health field eventually helped

[00:01:20] her begin to make sense of her complicated family history and the way the patriarchal

[00:01:24] religious groups of her childhood supported harmful authoritarian systems of control.

[00:01:29] She now draws from both her personal experience and professional expertise to help others

[00:01:34] recover from religious harm and reclaim their authentic selves. So thank you for being

[00:01:39] here Megan. Thank you for having me. I like to have people start with a little

[00:01:43] bit about their church experience so we have a little bit of background and context

[00:01:48] for your deconstruction experience. Sure, so I bounced around a lot when I was

[00:01:55] growing up. We would stay at one church for a few years and then my parents and later

[00:02:01] my mom after my parents got divorced would find something wrong with usually the leadership

[00:02:07] or dynamics within the church. So we always managed to find very small

[00:02:14] non-denominational fundamentalist churches and the last church I really went to while

[00:02:21] I was still living at home was actually a Baptist church but it had all the same

[00:02:26] doctrines as the non-denominational churches that I grew up in. But all very fundamentalist,

[00:02:33] the Bible is the literal inspired word of God, anti-homosexuality, very authoritarian,

[00:02:41] very patriarchal. What did it feel like bouncing around churches? Because I know for a lot

[00:02:47] of people community is one thing that they appreciated about church but if you're bouncing

[00:02:52] around that community probably shifted in and out so what did that feel like? That was

[00:02:58] pretty hard. I was also homeschooled so I didn't have a group of friends outside

[00:03:04] of my religious community. So when we would go from church to church it was saying goodbye

[00:03:11] to a group of friends and trying to establish new friends and friendships while also

[00:03:18] not really having great social skills. So it was pretty anxiety provoking as a child

[00:03:25] I was very shy and I would say that because of my upbringing and the reasons we were

[00:03:33] homeschooled which was to shelter us and keep us separate from the world we really weren't

[00:03:38] taught social skills either. We weren't put into spaces where we could learn those skills.

[00:03:44] So it was pretty tough bouncing around for a few different reasons. Yeah. What was your

[00:03:50] first big community experience? Was it going off to college or that's the one

[00:03:57] that's coming to mind for me but yeah what was that like to kind of be thrown into the

[00:04:02] world at some point whenever that was for you? So it would actually have been high

[00:04:07] school when I got my first part-time job. Okay. Well my first job was working at a

[00:04:14] golf course cafe and that was still very small and I was very awkward, it was very

[00:04:19] uncomfortable but then I got a job as a waitress at a local pizza place and when

[00:04:25] you're a waitress you have to be bubbly and you have to engage with people and so I'm

[00:04:32] so thankful that I got that job because I think it really taught me how to interact

[00:04:38] with people and how to make small talk and it really did break me out into the

[00:04:43] world in a way that was pretty unsettling at times because of the culture of the

[00:04:51] pizza place and the other employees and you know they would go out drinking after

[00:04:57] work and they would use bad language and all of these things that I didn't approve

[00:05:01] of of course so I always felt a little odd working there but overall it taught

[00:05:09] me how to interact with other humans which was great even though I still didn't feel

[00:05:15] like I really fit in and then I would say from there yeah going to college and making

[00:05:21] friends in my dorm which looking back I still feel like I was so socially awkward but

[00:05:29] people would find out that I was homeschooled and they would tell me that that really

[00:05:32] surprised them because I didn't act like other homeschoolers so I took that as a

[00:05:36] compliment but looking back I'm like I was definitely awkward but maybe we were

[00:05:40] all awkward I don't know. I mean we're all a little awkward in college and I went to

[00:05:45] public school but I find that just getting out of like a church bubble and into this

[00:05:50] real world secular people group was so hard and it was like I don't know how to

[00:05:55] interact with people like I don't know what jokes do you laugh at, what comments

[00:06:00] do you make, what's appropriate and what's not you just like really don't have a

[00:06:04] sense of normalcy and so I imagine that it's like exponential for somebody who

[00:06:10] also didn't have public school experience and I think a lot of people

[00:06:13] growing up in these kinds of communities feel that so thanks for sharing.

[00:06:19] As a kid did you notice that your mom found something wrong with every

[00:06:23] church and how did you kind of piece that together?

[00:06:26] I think I was so under the spell of my family and the religion simultaneously

[00:06:38] that I didn't notice a pattern of maybe it's kind of the person finding

[00:06:45] the problem that's the problem and not the groups themselves I think I very

[00:06:52] much bought into it's always someone else, it's always something else and sort

[00:06:58] of this deferring of taking personal responsibility for things that was kind

[00:07:03] of a theme that I carried with me like and I think that can be kind of a

[00:07:09] theme in fundamentalism in general where you know these things aren't our

[00:07:15] responsibility everything is God's responsibility to navigate and if he's

[00:07:20] showing you that this isn't a church that you're supposed to be at then you

[00:07:25] just trust that and follow that so I definitely didn't notice that that was

[00:07:31] possibly a bit pathological until later like probably until the last few years

[00:07:37] really when kind of even I work a lot with attachment theory now and just

[00:07:43] recognizing like that's even sort of a part of an insecure attachment style

[00:07:48] is you leave relationships when it starts to feel threatening and you just

[00:07:53] move to somewhere else and you're completely done with that previous relationship

[00:07:58] if you don't want to share this that's okay but are you close with your

[00:08:02] parents now or how has that relationship been?

[00:08:05] So my parents got divorced when I was 10 and my dad didn't really have a

[00:08:12] background in the church but he joined the church along with my mom who was also

[00:08:18] not really a faithful attendee when my older brother and I he's only 14 months

[00:08:24] older than me when we were very little like toddler age probably and they

[00:08:30] became fully indoctrinated into this fundamentalist group but I would say my

[00:08:35] dad didn't really fully buy into it and there were all kinds of relational

[00:08:41] dynamics between the two of them but after they divorced my mom became very

[00:08:48] well I suppose she was always very you know strict and dogmatic about the

[00:08:53] religion but when my dad left he kind of gave it all up and so he was sort

[00:09:00] of cast by my family meaning my mom and grandparents as the villain and the

[00:09:05] unbeliever and the sinner and he's kind of dangerous in a way now I now have

[00:09:11] the terminology to label this but I see it as very much parental alienation

[00:09:16] that occurred with him and I do think you know part of that was

[00:09:21] religiously motivated so he and I unfortunately didn't have a

[00:09:26] relationship much after that and you know even now I don't know if things

[00:09:33] have been different in terms of the alienation component if we may have

[00:09:39] because he has all kinds of trauma on his end to unhealthy behaviors and

[00:09:44] whatnot so that's kind of an unknown my mom on the other hand we are not

[00:09:48] close right now either but that's sort of her own choosing I noticed as I

[00:09:53] started to slowly kind of step away from the church because it was this

[00:09:59] long process that I would say started in my early 20s where I started kind of

[00:10:05] experimenting with less conservative beliefs and behaviors that she became

[00:10:12] more and more guarded with me and I kind of see that you know there's

[00:10:18] there's layers of family trauma there as I mentioned there's attachment

[00:10:22] issues there but I do see the religion and people who are outside of

[00:10:28] the religion as being very threatening to her so as of now we don't have a

[00:10:34] relationship I don't know if that's gonna change in the future or not but

[00:10:38] that's really her choice more so than my choice mm-hmm yeah I mean and the

[00:10:44] church teaches us that things outside of the church are unsafe and so I

[00:10:50] remember doing this when I was in church sort of this protective like

[00:10:54] don't look at anything outside of the church don't interact with people

[00:10:57] outside of the church and so it kind of keeps you there and can really be

[00:11:01] damaging and harmful to these relationships you talked about it

[00:11:05] being kind of a long process and these kind of less conservative

[00:11:10] beliefs and behaviors can you talk a little about that and when that

[00:11:13] started for you and what it looked like yeah I would say there were a

[00:11:16] couple of stages that I went through really stepping fully away from

[00:11:23] Christianity didn't happen until I was around 30 so this is about six years

[00:11:29] ago so late 20s around 30 but the first cracks in my faith came when I

[00:11:36] went to college which was a Christian college but it wasn't a biblical

[00:11:42] university so it wasn't one of the ultra conservative Christian colleges

[00:11:47] my youth pastors actually really wanted me to go to and tried to coerce me

[00:11:51] into going to so I went to the liberal Christian college but their fears

[00:11:57] were founded because when I was exposed to other Christians who just

[00:12:03] had different beliefs and ways of interpreting the Bible it kind of

[00:12:08] woke me up a bit like okay if there are other Christians like these people

[00:12:13] are obviously Christians but they believe different things and they're

[00:12:18] interpreting the Bible differently then where does where does that end

[00:12:23] like how are other religions entirely wrong and this is the only

[00:12:28] religion that got it right so just I think even learning the different

[00:12:34] perspectives on creation is what really sparked that for me that there were

[00:12:39] different interpretations of the creation story so I of course didn't

[00:12:45] allow my thinking to go too far with that and all of my friends were

[00:12:50] Christians and pretty conservative I wouldn't say that all of them were

[00:12:54] fundamentalists like I was but I was still in that bubble for the most part

[00:12:59] and then after I graduated when I turned 21 I started drinking alcohol

[00:13:05] which was a huge like huge no-no in our church and you know by my mom's

[00:13:11] perspective too like she thought that was sinful bad scary all the things

[00:13:17] so that's kind of the behavior change I started doing things that you know

[00:13:22] the church didn't approve of but were pretty still safe benign behaviors

[00:13:28] by anyone else's standard and I was dating a guy who was going to a different

[00:13:33] church still very fundamentalist church but much bigger it was almost like a

[00:13:38] mini mega church if you will because we lived in a really rural town but it

[00:13:42] was kind of like the mega church for our area and they had a worship

[00:13:47] team they had drums and all the things I grew up being taught that

[00:13:52] drums were also you know those are bad even the more progressive worship style

[00:14:00] like that was kind of still exposing me to another way of experiencing

[00:14:06] Christianity but then there was a you know something horrible that happened

[00:14:10] in this church where it came out that the worship leader had been sexually

[00:14:16] assaulting a young girl who had been living with his family from the

[00:14:20] time she was nine till she was 13 and he was arrested he went to jail you

[00:14:27] know this really happened but the church was divided over this topic and

[00:14:34] many of the church members blamed this girl for seducing him this was a

[00:14:40] 60 year old man this was a nine year old girl at the time she went to

[00:14:44] live with them and one of those people who thought she seduced him was the

[00:14:50] mother of the guy it was dating at that time so I was really confronted

[00:14:54] with this and I had just graduated or was actually in college for my

[00:14:59] master's degree where I was beginning to work with children with trauma and

[00:15:06] provide therapy and things like that and then I'm hearing this from my

[00:15:11] boyfriend's mother and there was so much cognitive dissonance around that

[00:15:17] that I started feeling very disillusioned about Christianity as a

[00:15:22] group I guess you could say.

[00:15:25] And you're doing this work getting ready to be a therapist and you know

[00:15:30] that it doesn't fit with what's actually happening and I feel like

[00:15:34] once you start to take it apart it just kind of all starts crumbling so

[00:15:39] to see an actual experience like that and to watch how people respond must

[00:15:45] have been so eye-opening.

[00:15:47] Yeah it was really eye-opening that was the last church I ever attended I

[00:15:52] didn't stop attending then I wasn't really brave enough to stop

[00:15:56] attending altogether because I still lived in that town I you know broke

[00:16:00] up with that guy not too long after that but kept going to that

[00:16:04] church and I didn't really stop going to church altogether until I moved to

[00:16:11] Washington State so this was all in Pennsylvania I moved to Washington

[00:16:15] State because I got married and this would have been about three years

[00:16:21] after that other experience but I had continued going to the church but I

[00:16:26] remember by the time I moved away I would just wake up on Sunday

[00:16:31] mornings feeling such dread and just oh I just don't want to go I'm going

[00:16:36] to sneak in the back and then leave like right away I'm not going to talk

[00:16:39] to anyone so I could feel it in my body before I ever made a conscious

[00:16:44] decision about I don't think I ever admitted to myself during my time

[00:16:50] there that I didn't really want to go or that I wasn't aligned with it

[00:16:55] anymore but my body was responding.

[00:16:58] Yeah our bodies know sometimes before our brains do but we were taught not to

[00:17:03] listen to our bodies and so we're really good at turning them off for a

[00:17:07] while but I'm finding this so much even just in the podcast so far that

[00:17:12] our bodies have told us all you know everybody's body has told them

[00:17:17] to stop or that it's not safe in some way and I think that's just a

[00:17:21] really beautiful way that our body has protected us and it's nice that we

[00:17:26] can learn to listen to it even though we were taught not to for so long.

[00:17:31] What are some beliefs that you held really tightly when you were in the

[00:17:35] church that you've let go of?

[00:17:38] Well it might be a shorter answer to say what have I held on to.

[00:17:44] You know what we could go with that, what have you held on to?

[00:17:47] We should go that way.

[00:17:49] I mean I am one of those people that has what I would consider fully left.

[00:17:56] Like I have kind of dismantled all of it and the only thing that I would say

[00:18:04] that I've really held on to is to love others.

[00:18:08] You know that just seems to be the best guiding principle there is and I

[00:18:15] recently within the last year started exploring a little bit of Buddhist

[00:18:19] spirituality and that's kind of in alignment with their philosophy too

[00:18:25] like you know trying to reduce suffering in the world, just trying to

[00:18:30] sort of honor your fellow man and I think that that is the core component

[00:18:36] of the best parts of almost all religions.

[00:18:40] It's just treating humanity in a positive way or treating the world in a

[00:18:46] positive way and trying to give back to the world in some kind of a way.

[00:18:50] So that's what I've held on to with evangelical Christianity that was taken

[00:18:56] almost too far to the point of self-sacrifice and self-neglect which I

[00:19:02] don't support that part of it.

[00:19:04] I think that we need to honor ourselves as well and we need to protect

[00:19:10] ourselves and protect our energy but that love for others and love for the

[00:19:15] world, that is something I've taken with me.

[00:19:18] My church when I was in high school we started becoming this like really

[00:19:23] John Piper centered church and I remember these, we did this Desiring God

[00:19:29] series, did you ever do this?

[00:19:31] Okay, he talked a lot about hedonism and how like pleasures are just

[00:19:36] hedonistic and if you're like enjoying anything you're like this hedonist

[00:19:41] person and I really internalized it as like we shouldn't be enjoying

[00:19:46] anything.

[00:19:47] Self-sacrifice to the point of really just giving up your whole self.

[00:19:52] It's so interesting to think about ways that we've held on to that but

[00:19:56] in a healthy way but not held on to it in this self-sacrificing way.

[00:20:00] Yeah, I think a lot of people that come from a background similar to

[00:20:05] ours because it sounds very similar really struggle with pleasure as you

[00:20:11] were just talking about and it's something that comes up in my

[00:20:14] therapy practice too and when we hear the word pleasure sometimes we think

[00:20:19] of pleasure with the body because we become so disconnected from our

[00:20:22] bodies but it's even the pleasure of just being able to enjoy nature or

[00:20:27] enjoy reading a book for an entire afternoon or anything like that

[00:20:32] because our only pleasure was supposed to be in God and doing God's work

[00:20:37] and so if there's anything that brought us personal joy, personal

[00:20:42] satisfaction or pleasure then we were being self-focused and that was not

[00:20:47] good.

[00:20:48] Very simple.

[00:20:49] Yeah, one of my friends talked about how she has started to reclaim

[00:20:54] reading for herself and like reading for pleasure because anytime that

[00:20:59] she tried to read before it was like I should be doing my devotions I

[00:21:03] guess like reading my Bible so like I can't be doing this and so it

[00:21:07] just it showed up in all these ways that we weren't allowed to enjoy

[00:21:11] life.

[00:21:12] We should always be working and always be doing our own things

[00:21:15] for the glory of God, right?

[00:21:17] In the questions that I sent you before when I asked if you have any

[00:21:31] religious practices now you said you don't but you believe a higher power

[00:21:36] is within and I would love to hear more about that and what that

[00:21:40] process was like for you.

[00:21:42] Yeah so I think I've found the most healing has come from not

[00:21:47] having this external experience of being in a relationship with God

[00:21:52] has come from not having this externalized view of God particularly

[00:21:59] God as a heavenly father who could be quite surly and aggressive

[00:22:04] and punishing but as inner wisdom that we all contain within

[00:22:10] ourselves and that what we used to look at or what I used to

[00:22:15] look at as the Holy Spirit's guidance was probably a version of my

[00:22:21] own inner wisdom that had taken on a flavor of fundamentalism

[00:22:26] obviously but tuning into that voice and learning to trust myself

[00:22:31] without externalizing that power and that control to another entity

[00:22:37] or to a deity so that's been huge in trying to reconnect with that

[00:22:42] and that's been a big part of work for my clients as well because

[00:22:47] I think that is what these high control religions do.

[00:22:51] They tell you to externalize all of your power and all of your

[00:22:55] control to an all powerful deity who is going to control everything

[00:22:59] for you so taking that control, taking personal responsibility of

[00:23:04] your own life and learning to tune into your inner wisdom that has

[00:23:08] all been not only healing but very empowering.

[00:23:12] Yeah, I feel that so much. I talked about this in a previous episode

[00:23:17] but I did a lot of prayer journaling when I was deep in Christianity

[00:23:22] and it was really confusing when I left the church and left

[00:23:27] Christianity to figure out what all of those journals meant. That was

[00:23:31] a significant amount of time that I spent journaling and they can't be

[00:23:36] meaningless. I got something from them in the moment and so as I was

[00:23:41] kind of looking through that and in my own therapy work, I realized that

[00:23:45] was my own voice the whole time and what I thought was God speaking to me

[00:23:50] was actually just me and my own voice and that was so powerful for me.

[00:23:55] What kind of practices did you do to help figure that out or

[00:24:00] how did you piece this together for yourself?

[00:24:04] I did a major pendulum swing when I left

[00:24:09] fundamentalism over to new age spirituality

[00:24:14] and law of attraction. Looking back now, I know it's because

[00:24:19] I wasn't really ready for there not to be a reason things were

[00:24:24] happening even though I had kind of swung over here to believing

[00:24:29] it's my thoughts that are creating it. It was still something

[00:24:34] else and it wasn't just random that things were

[00:24:39] occurring in the world. There was still a design behind it but

[00:24:44] swinging over to that version of spirituality, I'm still really glad I did it

[00:24:49] because it did internalize that sense of power because I did

[00:24:54] claim ownership of what I was doing in the world, how I was

[00:24:59] showing up in the world and what I was kind of creating for myself in the world.

[00:25:04] That was part of my deconstruction process was actually

[00:25:09] exploring and embracing another spiritual belief system

[00:25:14] and I think that there are people who

[00:25:19] believe in that version of spirituality and it's not

[00:25:24] harmful. I think it can be fundamentalist in and of itself too though and toxic

[00:25:29] just like any group can be but as I sort of then came back

[00:25:34] down the pendulum to sort of this middle area, I held

[00:25:39] onto that sense of personal responsibility and that inner wisdom

[00:25:44] without it being the laws of the universe now that are

[00:25:49] making everything happen in a certain way. So that's sort of how it

[00:25:54] I guess kind of was like this roundabout way of finally landing on me

[00:25:59] as just me without the external stuff. Yeah, I mean I think it's really common to

[00:26:04] leave whatever high control religion you're leaving and jump into some other form of

[00:26:09] Islam that's like, it's just really hard to go from such high structure to

[00:26:14] no structure and so to be able to leave and find something else

[00:26:19] but you pick it I think is still a good and important healthy step out for a lot of

[00:26:24] people. I also love that you could take a piece from Christianity like

[00:26:29] you said the part that you kept is this loving people and caring about

[00:26:34] people and you could keep a part of this other kind of belief system that you were

[00:26:39] part of for a little while. And I think that's one of the most beautiful parts of deconstruction is that

[00:26:44] you get to pick what you keep and make it your own. Well, and I wanted to comment

[00:26:49] on what you were saying too about the journaling because that is such a powerful practice even

[00:26:54] now and I don't know if you listen to Glennon Doyle's podcast. She recently

[00:26:59] had Liz Gilbert on and Liz was talking about journaling

[00:27:04] to a source that she refers to often as love and

[00:27:09] she asks the question on paper and then responds and of course it's

[00:27:14] you who is writing it but it just reminded me of what I did with

[00:27:19] prayer journaling too with seeking God in the Holy Spirit but like you said

[00:27:24] it was me the whole time and Liz Gilbert who is very much not a part of

[00:27:29] fundamentalist Christianity has this practice and

[00:27:34] I think that you know it can be hard for some people because those former

[00:27:39] practices can feel triggering but I think if we're able to work through the trigger

[00:27:44] and get to the best purest part of that and use it for our

[00:27:49] own good then we're in the best position possible. Yeah,

[00:27:54] I find that journaling is sometimes a little triggering like the act

[00:27:59] of writing the way that I used to and so one way that I've tried

[00:28:04] to come back to it because it has been so helpful for me so I don't want to give it up so

[00:28:09] I find that typing now feels different but is the same kind of practice from my brain or

[00:28:14] typing on my phone. It's like enough of a different medium that I can journal without

[00:28:19] feeling church triggers come up. Well, I've heard that typing and

[00:28:24] writing by hand use different parts of your brain. Oh, interesting.

[00:28:29] So that's probably why if the trigger is associated with journaling through

[00:28:34] handwriting then it's using a different part of your brain to type

[00:28:39] and that's probably why it's not as activating for you. Yeah, that's so interesting and makes so much

[00:28:44] sense. Yeah, but you still have that outlet. Yes, yeah exactly but I feel like my brain

[00:28:49] still gets to do its processing. Something that I've done now

[00:28:54] is my therapist and I have done a lot of internal family systems work and so

[00:28:59] sometimes I'll write letters to a certain part of myself that I've found and then that part

[00:29:04] of me will write a letter back and that's been really helpful too. You know, a part of me that was really helpful in my

[00:29:09] deconstruction was this inner wise woman I called her so sometimes it would be like

[00:29:14] okay what would your inner wise woman say? And so to be able to journal from her was like

[00:29:19] that was what my journaling to and from God was before except now it's just me

[00:29:24] and I can actually acknowledge that it's just me. Yeah.

[00:29:29] So if you could describe your deconstruction and kind of what it felt like

[00:29:42] for you how would you describe it? I think it took me by surprise. I don't think

[00:29:47] I realized what was happening until it was like well under way or

[00:29:52] like I was over the hump of it and I didn't even have a word for it until I was like

[00:29:57] out of it. I didn't find the online spaces or online communities

[00:30:02] until even just a couple years ago I would say but I would say I really did

[00:30:07] my over the hump version of deconstructing if you can call it that because it was like a slow

[00:30:12] build and then it was all at once. That was five to six years ago

[00:30:17] but yeah I didn't even have the language for it. My experience didn't really seem to fit with religious

[00:30:22] trauma but I knew that what happened was really messed up

[00:30:27] in a lot of ways and I didn't really I would say

[00:30:32] have the language for my own experience until I read the work of

[00:30:37] Stephen Hassan and his book called Combating Cult Mind Control and

[00:30:42] realizing that this indoctrination process and the way they took over

[00:30:47] my mind even though I wasn't what I would say clinically

[00:30:52] traumatized it was still so destructive for me and I'm

[00:30:57] still kind of unwinding all of that. Yeah so I think

[00:31:02] it felt it wasn't really scary for me because I

[00:31:07] think I was away from I was on the other side of the country when I did

[00:31:12] the over the hill part kind of the all at once part so I was removed from

[00:31:17] my family of origin I was removed from my Christian friends all of

[00:31:22] my friends I made in Washington were spiritual but not religious so

[00:31:27] it was a very affirming space to be in everybody was very politically

[00:31:32] progressive there as well. So I just settled into this lovely

[00:31:37] little supportive cocoon out there and then by the time I came back

[00:31:42] here I had the language already for it and I had processed

[00:31:47] so much of it that it wasn't even that overwhelming to come back to this space

[00:31:52] because I already kind of knew where I stood. What did it feel like to

[00:31:57] talk to your family about it after you were over the hump? I haven't

[00:32:02] really talked to my family. I have a brother I have

[00:32:07] many brothers but one of my adult brothers is also

[00:32:12] non-religious and he never really bought into it.

[00:32:17] He would go to youth group and stuff like that but he just he told me I just never really

[00:32:22] bought into it you know he's very kind of science oriented

[00:32:27] and he then went to a state college he didn't even go to a Christian college

[00:32:32] and so he's you know been out for a long time and I would

[00:32:37] say probably was never really fully indoctrinated to begin with probably much to

[00:32:42] my mom's chagrin because he was also homeschooled for quite a while

[00:32:47] but he and I have talked about it. So he and I have had kind of open

[00:32:52] conversations but my other brother who still you know holds on to

[00:32:57] a lot of those beliefs he and I have not talked about it. It's sort of like a little bit of like the elephant in the

[00:33:02] room like we just you don't talk about religion or politics you know and keep that boundary.

[00:33:07] Yeah and have you talked about it with your mom? No because by the time I was

[00:33:12] fully out there were already other issues going on and we weren't really

[00:33:17] on speaking terms anyway and she's very avoidant

[00:33:22] so she wouldn't bring it up like when she noticed me drifting

[00:33:27] or backsliding because I was drinking alcohol and you know not going to a super

[00:33:32] conservative church like she never brought that up either these are just things you don't talk about in my

[00:33:37] family like you don't bring up the hard stuff. Do you feel like you can show up as

[00:33:42] your authentic self to your family? And what does that

[00:33:47] feel like to see them? So that's definitely

[00:33:52] one of the hardest things. You know even with certain friends like I still have friends who

[00:33:57] are still Christians still go to pretty conservative churches and

[00:34:02] I don't feel like I can really be my authentic self and a lot of that

[00:34:07] is because my work now as a religious trauma therapist like my friends who

[00:34:12] are still Christian won't even ask me about my work because you know

[00:34:17] I am talking about things that they find blasphemous and so

[00:34:22] there's big pieces of who I am that certain family

[00:34:27] members and certain friends don't want to hear about or know

[00:34:32] so you know I can be authentic in the parts that they feel comfortable

[00:34:37] being around and interacting with. You know we were talking the language of parts earlier

[00:34:42] from internal family systems but there are parts of me who I would consider

[00:34:47] you know significant parts of who I am that you know those friends and family

[00:34:52] members just don't get to see. Has there been a lot of grief

[00:34:57] around that? Yeah that's been a big grief process and that's you know the

[00:35:02] grief over loss of relationships and the grief over

[00:35:07] the barrier now that's in relationships that continue to

[00:35:12] exist is the biggest challenge for me that I've been up against in the

[00:35:17] last few years and it's probably the biggest thing I walk through with a lot of my clients

[00:35:22] because I think we all have experienced loss and

[00:35:27] change in our relationships. When did you start working with

[00:35:32] religious trauma clients and when did that fall into your deconstruction

[00:35:37] and what was that like for you? So I had briefly

[00:35:42] dipped my toes into the waters of doing it professionally

[00:35:47] a couple of years ago right after I moved back to Pennsylvania and

[00:35:52] there was a lot of toxicity in the online community around

[00:35:57] it at that point. I'm not sure why that was but it just seemed like there was

[00:36:02] a lot of anger and a lot of people outside of the deconstruction

[00:36:07] space coming in and attacking people and it was just a very ugly experience

[00:36:12] so I quickly backed out and I couldn't do it. I was

[00:36:17] getting too triggered. I just wasn't ready yet and there was still a lot of change going

[00:36:22] on for me personally at that time too with my family and I

[00:36:27] was in the middle of a divorce and that relationship didn't work out because it was rooted in

[00:36:32] purity culture stuff so there was a loss of a marriage, a loss of family members,

[00:36:37] a loss of friends. It was a whole thing so I identified

[00:36:42] I am not ready to do this professionally so fast forward about a year

[00:36:47] and I was back in therapy and really working through some of that and I started

[00:36:52] really focusing on it again last year so that would have been mid-2023

[00:36:57] and it's been full steam ahead ever since then. I mean

[00:37:02] I feel like the vibe is really different now. People are very

[00:37:07] growth oriented and very supportive of one another and about sharing

[00:37:12] resources and growing together and rebuilding community and I'm not sure if

[00:37:17] that's again kind of how I was

[00:37:22] like the spaces I was finding or if there's truly been a shift.

[00:37:27] I still don't know the answer to that but yes I've been doing what I call

[00:37:32] religious harm coaching since last year and I do what's called

[00:37:37] clinically informed coaching which is a bit different than psychotherapy

[00:37:42] although I still bring that clinical lens to everything because most of the

[00:37:47] people that I work with are either already in therapy or they've

[00:37:52] gone through a significant healing process maybe with a therapist not specialized in religious

[00:37:57] harm or religious trauma and now they're looking to focus on this one very specific

[00:38:02] issue but life is feeling pretty stable overall so it doesn't

[00:38:07] really meet the criteria for diagnosing and clinical

[00:38:12] psychotherapy but it very much fits under the umbrella of coaching

[00:38:17] and I use a lot of the same clinical orientation with attachment theory and

[00:38:22] psychotherapy and psychotherapy is a little bit different than

[00:38:27] psychotherapy where it's work and somatic experiencing but

[00:38:32] the degree of intensity of how people are experiencing symptoms

[00:38:37] is a bit different than somebody who might go to see a therapist.

[00:38:42] You have a course coming out for people coming out of

[00:38:47] So I think I'll be ready to have people join my course probably in May

[00:38:52] or June of 2024 and it's a 10 week program

[00:38:57] where I release lessons and modules.

[00:39:02] The topic is healing the interconnected

[00:39:07] trauma between families and religion so how

[00:39:12] family of origin can create and perpetuate religious trauma and how religious

[00:39:17] trauma can create and perpetuate family trauma. So that's what the course is about kind of

[00:39:22] unpacking that and then kind of figuring out what we were talking about earlier like

[00:39:27] how do we show up in families that don't really accept where we're at while also

[00:39:32] healing from all the trauma that happened in our family and in the church

[00:39:37] So that's what the course is broadly about but each module will address a different topic

[00:39:42] and then I will do a live call. It'll be like 10 participants

[00:39:47] where we'll kind of break it down and talk about what we learned and do Q&A

[00:39:52] and that kind of thing so it'll be a 10 week long program with meeting every other

[00:39:57] week. Very cool. Well thank you for sharing about that. I have one more question for you

[00:40:02] but this seems like a good time to share where people can find you or reach out to you

[00:40:07] if they're interested in connecting with you more and then I'll ask you my last question.

[00:40:12] Yeah so I'm very active on Instagram. My handle is reclaimingself.therapy

[00:40:17] My website is just my first and last name meganvonfricken.com

[00:40:22] and that will get people to probably everywhere else that they need or want to be

[00:40:27] So if you're interested in working with me one on one there's information about that

[00:40:32] and if they're interested in the course there will be a sign up that they can access

[00:40:37] on the website to get on the wait list for that as well. Perfect and I'll link all of those

[00:40:42] in the show notes so people can find them easily and reach out to you especially if they're

[00:40:47] interested in the course or in working with you. Okay my last question has become my favorite

[00:40:52] I like to end with some kind of encouragement for listeners. So could you offer some

[00:40:57] kind of encouragement to the deconstructing person especially maybe somebody dealing with

[00:41:02] religious harm and family harm that's happening at the same time and dealing with that

[00:41:07] could you offer them some kind of encouragement on their journey? I would say

[00:41:12] that even when it feels really dark because this space

[00:41:17] can feel really dark and lonely sometimes that that space

[00:41:22] is still preferable to the mind control

[00:41:27] of being embedded in a church that doesn't allow you to even know who you authentically are

[00:41:32] So just try to remember that like even during those times where it is

[00:41:37] really hard or feels really lonely you're on your way to something so much brighter

[00:41:43] and so much better than you ever imagined was possible because you didn't even

[00:41:48] know you were you were so kind of blinded before

[00:41:53] so just kind of hold out for that. I love that thank you

[00:41:58] thank you for being here Megan. Thanks for listening to another episode

[00:42:03] of Hello Deconstructionists. If you enjoyed this episode or any others please like, follow

[00:42:09] or subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it leave us a review so other people know what this show is all about

[00:42:14] If you have any questions comments or parts of your own experience you'd like to share on the podcast

[00:42:19] you can email me at hello.decons at gmail.com

[00:42:24] and as always you can find me over on Instagram at hello underscore deconstructionists where together we are building community

[00:42:29] post evangelicalism. Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this podcast

[00:42:35] and when this sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your head I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community

[00:42:40] that's here with you. Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories with us

[00:42:45] and of course to you for listening. See you next time!