18: Giving Up God with Sarah Henn Hayward

[00:00:01] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:00:38] share our stories and experiences of leading high-control religion along with what it's

[00:00:42] been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:00:48] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most

[00:00:51] of all that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:00:54] You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:01:03] My guest today is Sarah Hen Hayward who uses sheher pronouns.

[00:01:07] Sarah has been writing since she cracked open her first quiet time devotional journal.

[00:01:12] Sarah grew up in the Chicago suburbs, went to Marquette University for physical therapy

[00:01:16] and moved to Spokane Washington where she met her husband and grew their family.

[00:01:20] They love camping in the Pacific Northwest and take advantage of their beautiful surroundings

[00:01:24] as much as possible.

[00:01:26] After her deconstruction and departure from the faith of her youth, Sarah felt lost and

[00:01:31] adrift.

[00:01:32] Being a Christian was the foundation of her identity, giving her life purpose and meaning.

[00:01:36] She turned to books for comfort.

[00:01:38] When the progressive Christian voices fell flat and the atheistic approaches to

[00:01:41] life couldn't relate to her grief, she began writing her own spiritual memoir.

[00:01:46] Thank you for being here, Sarah.

[00:01:48] Your own spiritual memoir is called Giving Up God.

[00:01:51] I was just telling Sarah I've read about half of it and it's so good and I'm so excited

[00:01:56] to keep reading.

[00:01:57] Thank you, Maggie.

[00:01:58] Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:59] Yeah.

[00:02:00] I'm sure we'll weave in some conversation about the book throughout but can you start with

[00:02:04] a little bit about your church experience to give us some context for your deconstruction?

[00:02:09] Yeah, so I grew up in the Midwest and attended an evangelical free church from pretty much

[00:02:15] the moment I was born.

[00:02:17] And I was raised in that pretty religiously.

[00:02:20] We were there every Sunday.

[00:02:22] I did Alana's as a little kid from Cubbies all the way up to Guards and got all my

[00:02:27] awards and everything there.

[00:02:29] I joined the youth group.

[00:02:31] I led Bible studies and youth group.

[00:02:33] Most of my friends came from church.

[00:02:36] I went to a Christian K through eighth grade school that my parents helped found because

[00:02:41] there wasn't a non-Catholic Christian school in my town and they wanted that option.

[00:02:46] So I was pretty sheltered up in through eighth grade.

[00:02:49] But then thankfully, especially looking back, I went to public high school.

[00:02:52] So then I did have a little real world experience which I'm also very grateful for and met

[00:02:57] some friends who were not as religious but stayed very involved in the faith all

[00:03:02] through high school and into college.

[00:03:04] Marquette University is a Jesuit school so they are Catholic and it's funny the style

[00:03:09] of faith I grew up with was definitely judgmental towards Catholics.

[00:03:13] Like I grew up thinking they weren't actually Christians which is so ridiculous because

[00:03:17] it was the first church.

[00:03:19] So going to Marquette was great because that was one very early tiny crack in my understanding

[00:03:24] of all things black and white and rigid.

[00:03:26] And I met a lot of really devout Catholics who took their faith very seriously.

[00:03:30] So I'm grateful for that experience.

[00:03:32] And at Marquette I joined Campus Crusade for Christ and was very involved with that.

[00:03:36] I went on all their retreats, I led and was in small groups and mentored and was mentored

[00:03:42] and all of the things there.

[00:03:44] But crew started to really rub me wrong.

[00:03:47] My freshman year there was a huge group of girls that joined so it was super social

[00:03:51] and a lot of fun in that regard.

[00:03:53] But as I got involved and got more into it, their whole thing is evangelical outreach

[00:03:59] you know, crusading for the truth.

[00:04:01] So they would literally hand out tracks on the sidewalk and at retreats go door to door

[00:04:05] and ring strangers doorbells.

[00:04:07] And that was really not sitting right with me.

[00:04:11] And then during college I had started to question more and more things after meeting

[00:04:16] people.

[00:04:17] I spent a semester abroad in Australia where I got to meet a lot of Muslim people and

[00:04:21] they really shook my understanding of exclusive Christianity having you know kind of the

[00:04:28] only grasp on salvation and what does that mean for these people I'm meeting that sound

[00:04:33] as devout as I do and are as involved in their faith as I am.

[00:04:37] And then I had met a friend at Marquette who was gay and being his friend also made me

[00:04:44] just question things and I think so many of my beliefs I just inherited and never

[00:04:49] really dug into you know just kind of went with the flow and it just made sense because

[00:04:54] everybody around you was thinking the same way and so being confronted with something

[00:04:59] that challenged that I'm so grateful for that experience now but yeah meeting a friend

[00:05:04] who is openly gay made me look into that issue in more detail and I pretty quickly

[00:05:10] went ahead and decided nope it's not a sin.

[00:05:12] It's not a choice it's not a sin they're fine let people marry who they want to

[00:05:16] marry.

[00:05:17] Well, campus crusade did not like that and I quickly was confronted and had to

[00:05:22] have a very awkward coffee date with a freshman boy in the group who is mad at my open acceptance

[00:05:29] of that group of people.

[00:05:31] So then I left crew and this was towards the end of college and I had been also attending

[00:05:36] church in Milwaukee and so in lieu of crew I got super involved at my church and was

[00:05:42] on the leadership board there and went on retreats with them so I was still very Christian

[00:05:46] all through college and grad school and it really was within the last 10 to 15 years

[00:05:52] that I just kept digging you know kept doing my quiet times in my Bible studies like I was

[00:05:57] supposed to and the more I learned the more I studied the more questions opened up and

[00:06:02] I found that as I really pushed on those questions and kept digging and didn't just go with the

[00:06:07] flow more and more things stopped making sense or the answers were not satisfying

[00:06:12] anymore so now I find myself in I call myself an agnostic atheist I'm highly doubtful

[00:06:20] that there is a higher being out there in charge of everything who made all this on

[00:06:23] purpose but I'm open to admit that I certainly don't have the answers to the mysteries of

[00:06:27] the universe and who knows.

[00:06:29] Yeah.

[00:06:30] What kinds of things were you digging into where you weren't finding the answers very

[00:06:34] satisfying?

[00:06:36] I think a big part of it for the longest time the things I questioned didn't rock my

[00:06:41] faith you know I was able to become more open and affirming towards the LGBTQ community

[00:06:48] and thought there's still a way to do that as a Christian then I started learning a little

[00:06:52] bit more about evolution in science which I had been very closed off to growing up and

[00:06:57] I was able to reconcile well maybe you know share the Big Bang and trial and error

[00:07:02] evolution is how we got here but God could have set that off God could have still been

[00:07:05] kind of behind it so I was able to do a lot of mental gymnastics and force things

[00:07:10] to still work with my Christian framework at least an adapted framework or an adapted

[00:07:16] view of God but what it ended up kind of really pulling down to was the question

[00:07:20] of evil and suffering which is a stumbling block for so many and I used to get

[00:07:24] annoyed when everyone would say that that was such a hard thing because I

[00:07:27] thought well no it's not we have free will God had to give us free will

[00:07:31] otherwise our love meant nothing and because of free will we screwed up

[00:07:34] and people make bad choices that cause other people to get hurt and that felt

[00:07:38] so clean and easy but as I dug into free will or thinking about that

[00:07:44] especially honestly as I did a lot of self-education on race and racism in America

[00:07:50] and just had my eyes more opened to how horrible life had been for so many people

[00:07:55] for so many hundreds of years and just all of the

[00:07:58] lives filled with suffering that have existed over the centuries and millennia

[00:08:03] free will as an excuse just started to feel weak

[00:08:07] I started to think well gosh is that the best God could do God's supposed

[00:08:11] to be all-powerful or you know our free will is restricted to some degree I

[00:08:17] can't just do anything I can think of or want so why couldn't have God restricted

[00:08:21] it to eliminate the choice of murder and genocide or you know not made

[00:08:27] cancer an option or I just thought if God was really all-powerful

[00:08:31] the code for the universe could have been written in so many different ways

[00:08:34] and am I more creative than God to be thinking of this

[00:08:38] or more loving than God to want it to be better

[00:08:42] and so yeah just questioning that and questioning the reality of free will

[00:08:46] and the things I was taught about God that God is love and God is all-powerful

[00:08:51] and all knowing they just no longer it was like a square peg in a round hole I

[00:08:55] couldn't make it fit anymore yeah and I remember asking that

[00:08:59] question a lot too or questions around those kinds of issues and

[00:09:03] the answer that was given to me was always like well we just don't

[00:09:06] understand yet like his ways are higher than ours

[00:09:08] and so we just have to like keep trusting or keep having faith and

[00:09:12] just know that like he has a better plan than what we could ever imagine

[00:09:17] and I'm like but that doesn't seem true like at some point that's just not

[00:09:20] good enough anymore you know you look at these like big world

[00:09:23] issues or like racism like you said it's like no this

[00:09:27] answer is not okay for me anymore right or I think that view is a very

[00:09:31] privileged view to have like we say that as wealthy Americans who

[00:09:36] aren't suffering but like what about the people that it doesn't work out for

[00:09:39] what about all the people right now having their homes bombed and obliterated

[00:09:43] or what about the kids with cancer who don't survive you know it doesn't always

[00:09:47] work out right in fact a lot of the time it doesn't

[00:09:50] yeah but I'm thinking about like the beginning of your book you're talking

[00:09:53] about your experience as a kid with scoliosis right

[00:09:57] am I remembering this right and you know this journey of like

[00:10:01] your own kind of suffering and having God not heal you but like protect you in

[00:10:06] this way and so it feels like to see these small

[00:10:10] ways that God comes through for you makes it so that you

[00:10:15] can like keep believing this can answer for a little bit longer

[00:10:19] I don't know does that feel true for you yeah well and you know it's so

[00:10:22] interesting I think about I was a psych major

[00:10:25] so I'm really into psychology and our cognitive bias and

[00:10:30] you could take that my childhood scoliosis it was really severe I needed to

[00:10:33] have surgery you know it was a big deal and it didn't kill me

[00:10:37] and I'm able to still walk you know like I was able to

[00:10:40] continue having a good life but it's all on how you want to twist it so

[00:10:44] I'm going to choose especially back then to see God

[00:10:48] kept me going and people prayed for me and I recovered as good as I can

[00:10:52] I still am super asymmetric and wonky and I have some weird things but

[00:10:57] looking at me walking down a sidewalk nobody would think that there's something

[00:11:00] off so I can say yeah it worked out or I could be really negative and be like

[00:11:04] God did this to me I suffered for three years with this horrible back brace I

[00:11:08] hated that thing I had to have surgery as a child

[00:11:11] and now I'm shorter than I'm supposed to be and I'm crooked and

[00:11:14] you know so it's like I could blame God for all of that and so it's

[00:11:18] I think we see what we want to see all the time and so I was a Christian I

[00:11:21] wanted to see God helping me and I kind of chose to look at it that way

[00:11:26] yeah I mean you were a Christian and you were a kid yeah and so you're of course

[00:11:30] believing the things that the adults in your life are telling you which is that

[00:11:34] you know God is protecting you and God is watching out for you

[00:11:36] mm-hmm yes so all of this so far is kind of in college when you're

[00:11:42] thinking through some of these things and these new ideas or like these new

[00:11:45] questions where the answers aren't really sitting right for you is this

[00:11:49] all happening in college still it was a really slow boil really I think a

[00:11:54] lot of the deconstruction that people when they use that term now

[00:11:58] that was college for me questioning hell questioning

[00:12:02] the inerrancy of the bible kind of stuff like that I had to take three

[00:12:06] semesters of theology at marquette and so learning how the bible was put

[00:12:11] together and all these councils and all the different decisions that went

[00:12:15] into making it was really kind of rocking to realize how human that

[00:12:20] all was and so the deconstruction felt like a long

[00:12:25] process through all of that I would say this more recent push to completely

[00:12:30] leave the faith was within just like the last three or four years

[00:12:33] it was really kind of the pandemic that set things off it was the perfect

[00:12:38] storm of I had been laid off I found myself home a lot and I had two

[00:12:44] little kids at the time and they were still

[00:12:48] napping and my husband had to work from home and so when they were napping I

[00:12:51] would leave and go on these big long walks by myself just to get out of the house

[00:12:55] and George Floyd had been murdered and so you know question of evil and suffering

[00:12:59] was very front of mind and I would just go on these walks and just think why

[00:13:03] God what the fuck are you doing like why is this

[00:13:06] like this still and yeah as I just sat with those questions

[00:13:12] slowly the idea of a world without God just made more and more sense to me

[00:13:17] so that was a more recent experience and it was so

[00:13:20] earth-shattering I mean it was so scary to really

[00:13:23] my whole life even as things evolved I never really questioned

[00:13:28] God's existence I questioned parts of God or maybe God isn't exactly this or the

[00:13:32] Bible is not exactly that but I think I was afraid to

[00:13:37] really ask the question is God real and I think I was afraid maybe because

[00:13:42] somewhere deep down subconsciously I was afraid of what I would find because

[00:13:45] as soon as I really asked the question I found that my answer was

[00:13:49] no I don't think so yeah I feel that too I can see these really subtle ways where

[00:13:55] I feel like I was pushing questions aside when I was a kid

[00:13:59] or just when I was younger and not wanting to ask because it's like

[00:14:03] okay but I know there's not an answer there so

[00:14:07] I don't want to ask the question because I don't know what's gonna happen

[00:14:10] then like what happens when you stop believing in God

[00:14:13] right because it was my whole world yeah my identity was totally wrapped up

[00:14:17] in being a Christian and so I think there's a lot of self-preservation that

[00:14:21] goes into not wanting to ask that question because

[00:14:24] I knew it rocked about hard and it did yeah yeah so what did that feel like to

[00:14:29] give up this huge piece of your identity for yourself

[00:14:33] it was very intimidating I remember feeling

[00:14:37] afraid to even say it in my head that I didn't think God was real like it

[00:14:41] was physically awkward to get those words to come out of my mouth

[00:14:45] even when I was just alone on my walks and when I finally did

[00:14:50] say out loud I don't think there is such a thing as God

[00:14:54] I expected the earth to swallow me whole you know like

[00:14:58] Old Testament Sun stop in the sky that's how major it felt and I was so

[00:15:03] surprised that I actually felt really peaceful and felt like this

[00:15:08] sense of calm because I think I had had this constant cognitive dissonance

[00:15:12] buzzing in the back of my mind and that finally shut up and I was like

[00:15:17] ah yeah that actually feels right it actually feels

[00:15:22] more fair that life is just random because now the suffering isn't

[00:15:26] negligent on God's behalf or purposeful that God's being vengeful

[00:15:30] it just is what it is good things and bad things happened to good and bad

[00:15:33] people and taking God out of the picture made it

[00:15:36] actually seem more fair to me and so I felt kind of

[00:15:40] comforted to think that this is all just here

[00:15:43] without a purpose and a plan which I know is the opposite for a lot of people

[00:15:46] they feel like having a purpose is what brings them some comfort but to me

[00:15:51] it just made more sense to say clearly the world is random

[00:15:56] just things happen no matter who you are and where you are

[00:16:00] so on a personal individual level I felt a real sense of peace

[00:16:04] and a calmness about it that I was surprised to experience

[00:16:08] but then as I started slowly telling people where I was at

[00:16:12] that's when it got a little more scary because my husband is still a Christian

[00:16:16] we have two kids who he had been raising going to church

[00:16:20] my parents and brother and his wife and family are Christian

[00:16:24] most of my closest friends so that became

[00:16:28] scary to have to come out in that sense to people as

[00:16:32] non-believer thankfully I wasn't part of like a super conservative group

[00:16:37] my parents are the most conservative people probably in my life but they're

[00:16:40] my parents and so they're still gonna thankfully love me

[00:16:43] anyway even if they disagree most of my friends were able to kind of take it in

[00:16:47] stride but it did feel very isolating because they

[00:16:49] didn't get it you know they weren't on my side now or

[00:16:53] they didn't agree with what I was saying they could

[00:16:56] hear it and not cut me off or be super offended but they also weren't

[00:17:00] you know on board so it felt very lonely yeah have you found community outside of

[00:17:06] the church at this point I have leaned into the friendships

[00:17:11] that I already had that thankfully I do have a handful of friends who weren't

[00:17:15] super religious so if I have something happen now

[00:17:19] that I don't feel super comfortable telling one of my old

[00:17:21] christiany friends I'll go to the the non-religious ones first be like

[00:17:26] hey my book is getting published you know these good things that the

[00:17:28] Christians are like oh great your book about giving up God okay

[00:17:33] so new audience of first people to share my news with

[00:17:37] but thankfully most of my closest friends even the ones who are still

[00:17:40] believers are still good friends and we're able to you know agree to disagree

[00:17:45] so I don't feel like I've lost a huge sense of community

[00:17:49] which I know is a very common experience for people to

[00:17:52] change on this deep of a level I think I'm getting close to 40 and I

[00:17:56] have children so my world has gotten smaller and smaller just through time

[00:18:00] and trying to manage everybody's schedules so the the handful of friends

[00:18:03] that I was the closest to have stuck around so I just really cling to them

[00:18:07] now yeah what has it been like being in a

[00:18:11] marriage where you have such different beliefs

[00:18:15] yeah that's been the hardest part because you know when you

[00:18:19] are a christian it's so important it's supposed to be

[00:18:23] the number one thing you're supposed to love God more than your spouse

[00:18:27] you're supposed to be devoting every decision you make and

[00:18:30] everything you do to the Lord and so now we have different

[00:18:35] motivations and different priorities and so it's totally new territory and to

[00:18:40] be honest you know we're still figuring it out a lot of times we can

[00:18:43] just leave it in the background and go about our day-to-day business and

[00:18:46] it's all good but when things come up or we get into these

[00:18:50] heavier conversations it's uncomfortable and it's very personal to him he

[00:18:54] feels like I have you know walked away from this

[00:18:58] thing that we both held so dear and it's hurtful and disappointing to him and

[00:19:03] kind of scary because it's like gosh if she's gonna

[00:19:05] give up God what else might change you know it kind of unlocks like a can of

[00:19:09] worms yeah potentially or at least in the anxiety

[00:19:13] fear area of the mind so we've done a little bit of therapy

[00:19:17] together we're probably gonna start doing some more again

[00:19:20] sometimes soon because it's just a lot and as life goes on new things bubble up

[00:19:25] that we need to process so yeah we're working through it I'm

[00:19:28] thankful that my husband is a very evolved Christian himself so he's super

[00:19:32] open-minded about a lot of things he doesn't think the bible is

[00:19:36] inerrant or literal he doesn't believe in hell at all he thinks

[00:19:39] everyone dies and goes to the same place so he's not worried for my soul

[00:19:43] which is helpful yeah so at least it's less about some of that

[00:19:48] existential fear for him and just more about the

[00:19:51] the personal sense of like betrayal kind of that we're having to work through

[00:19:55] yeah no I appreciate your honesty so much in that I think

[00:19:58] a lot of people are the only one in their family who's out of christianity

[00:20:03] or the only one in a marriage who's out of christianity and I think

[00:20:06] it can feel I'm sure really lonely and so

[00:20:10] I'm sure it's just really helpful to hear that yeah we're not alone and we're not

[00:20:14] getting divorced you know we're making it work I think

[00:20:17] again part of the brainwashing is a harsh word but

[00:20:21] sort of that attitude in christianity is you have to be equally yoked and

[00:20:25] no marriage can survive if you're not you're not supposed to marry a non

[00:20:28] believer and so it's very intimidating but to

[00:20:31] realize like well actually yes being a christian is a huge

[00:20:34] piece of why both of us married each other at the time I would have said

[00:20:37] I would not marry someone who wasn't but that is not the only reason why I married

[00:20:42] my husband or vice versa you know we actually like each other

[00:20:45] and we have other qualities that we admire about each other so

[00:20:50] realizing that is helpful and I think we can just focus on those things like

[00:20:55] yeah our common faith was a great thing to keep us close but it's not the

[00:20:59] only thing we have and we can kind of lean into some other values or try to

[00:21:04] find new ways to connect yeah I've said this in other

[00:21:08] episodes but I was the slow one I was the last one out and so

[00:21:12] like my husband came out of christianity before I did

[00:21:16] and my sister and I have an episode we talk about how she left way before I

[00:21:21] did and you just feel like you're in such

[00:21:24] different pages and I think it's hard on both sides of it right

[00:21:28] since your husband came out first did you feel like

[00:21:31] pressured to try to follow him or what was that like for you I'm curious

[00:21:35] I think I felt sad and I think I'm really grateful because he really gave me

[00:21:43] the space to like he was not trying to like pull me out by any means it was

[00:21:48] just like this is what I believe but you can

[00:21:51] believe what you want to believe too and that's okay

[00:21:53] so yeah I think I was sad and like confused but

[00:21:58] but I think there was also a piece of me I'm like just processing this now

[00:22:02] or putting this together now but I think there was a piece of me that was like

[00:22:05] it also means that he is with me and loves me not just because I'm a christian

[00:22:10] nice it's because of you yeah and you know now I can

[00:22:15] I'm away from it enough that it's like oh there is so much more to me than

[00:22:20] christianity but at the time it felt like my everything

[00:22:23] right yeah it's just a tricky thing to navigate yeah did you guys continue

[00:22:27] talking about stuff and is that part of how you ended up

[00:22:30] walking away or did you kind of arrive at your decision totally separately

[00:22:33] well I think I was always like the stronger christian I think so like

[00:22:40] I just always took it a lot more seriously that's maybe not quite the

[00:22:44] right way to say it but I was always maybe like more vocal about it

[00:22:48] he had asked me some like really good questions and like not just him but

[00:22:52] like a couple other friends who had been questioning two friends I went to

[00:22:56] christian college with and he had just asked me some questions and again

[00:23:00] not in a way to like try to convince me but just like here's a sticking point

[00:23:04] for me like here's why I can't move past it like suffering in the world or

[00:23:08] other religions I'm thinking about your experience in Australia

[00:23:11] meeting a lot of people who are Muslim and and like are they going to hell

[00:23:16] even though like a lot of the beliefs are so similar

[00:23:19] and when he was asking me those questions or like so we're christian

[00:23:23] because we're born here so we go to heaven like that's kind of fucked up

[00:23:27] it just opened up my mind to these questions that I hadn't let myself

[00:23:31] ask before and then you know once you start chipping away it just

[00:23:35] all kind of crumbles so yeah yeah and I think there was probably more to it

[00:23:39] like just on my end too but but I think that was sort of how it kind of

[00:23:43] played out together yeah thanks I'm just curious

[00:23:46] since you're in our boat but on the opposite end how that worked out I

[00:23:49] don't know if we're gonna get to that space ever both my husband I

[00:23:52] are pretty proud and stubborn and so I feel like we're

[00:23:57] gonna be stuck on our own little islands but who knows maybe we'll find a new

[00:24:01] spot together yeah well and I don't say it gets better like

[00:24:04] he'll find his way out or anything like that but I think it gets better in

[00:24:08] that it won't be as new it won't be as fresh and you'll

[00:24:11] you'll kind of settle into or I think it's possible to settle into

[00:24:16] a kind of new state of of being in a beliefs and like

[00:24:20] that will probably shift and change like our beliefs will probably shift and

[00:24:23] change too and I think that's a normal healthy part of life and part of

[00:24:26] marriage and all relationships and right yeah I like to say that you know 15

[00:24:31] years ago I would have never ever ever thought I

[00:24:34] would be where I am now or think what I think now so 15 years from now

[00:24:39] who the hell exactly yeah totally different all over

[00:24:41] yeah and I think that's one of my favorite things about deconstructing

[00:24:44] has been embracing the like I don't know what I'll believe tomorrow or

[00:24:48] in 15 years I have no idea and it will probably change and that's okay yeah

[00:24:54] what has it been like to raise kids for you as someone who's not a Christian

[00:24:58] anymore and then maybe to raise kids in a

[00:25:02] in a kind of interfaith marriage but I think maybe those are two separate

[00:25:05] things yeah yeah that is feels like some thin

[00:25:10] ice to tread because I do want to respect where my

[00:25:14] husband is and where I was until very recently

[00:25:18] but at the same time don't want to hand my kids something that

[00:25:23] they're gonna have to you know totally unpack later in their life and

[00:25:27] that had been both of our attitudes even before I

[00:25:31] left was keeping things pretty vague and open

[00:25:35] not being super dogmatic or teaching them a whole bunch of like

[00:25:38] biblical concepts just more the generic God exists God made everything God made

[00:25:43] you and God loves you so it's still kind of where we just

[00:25:46] leave it and I have a hard time I really value

[00:25:50] being genuine and honest and so I it's hard I don't want to

[00:25:55] say things that I don't believe in but I'm not ready to like

[00:25:59] go into it in detail with them my kids are five and sevens they're still

[00:26:02] pretty young and at that age children are very literal

[00:26:05] thinkers and so to try to make them understand some gray

[00:26:08] unknown variable kind of stuff is a big ask and so

[00:26:12] I do a lot of like well some people don't believe this or some people don't go to

[00:26:17] church and some people is me you know or things

[00:26:22] like that and we do try to introduce them to the

[00:26:25] idea that there are lots of other religions and

[00:26:28] there are definitely other people that believe differently than you and

[00:26:31] just so that they don't grow up thinking that their life is the only

[00:26:34] way to be a human so we do try to keep it loose in that

[00:26:38] regard which helps and we still actually go to church as a family

[00:26:41] and our church is also pretty good about that they kind of center the children's

[00:26:45] ministry on the question of I wonder and so they're not trying to

[00:26:49] hammer home a lot of definitive truths but more just like

[00:26:53] they'll read a bible story and be like oh I wonder what it felt like to be sitting

[00:26:56] in that crowd of five thousand waiting for your food or I wonder you know

[00:27:00] just to make it more real and put kids there and have them and try to

[00:27:03] engage with things that way rather than this is what it means and Jesus can

[00:27:07] do miracles and this is this and that is that

[00:27:09] so yeah we are raising the kids still going to church but trying to keep things

[00:27:15] fairly generic I guess I would say just that God is love and God loves you and

[00:27:20] let's go be kind that's a great motto

[00:27:24] how does it feel for you to be in church and like what does that feel like for

[00:27:28] you Sunday mornings to like physically be in that space

[00:27:32] yeah it differs week to week and we don't go

[00:27:36] rigidly every week because our kids are young they're sick

[00:27:39] every other week so we miss a lot and we like to travel and do road trips so

[00:27:44] we're gone on the weekends but when we go some weeks it's fine

[00:27:48] the church I go to is very progressive and so they're not super

[00:27:52] you know conservative and saying stuff that makes my blood boil

[00:27:56] thankfully but some sermons just are inherently

[00:27:59] you know everything about it I don't agree with and so

[00:28:02] I'm able to just kind of tune it out I try to bring my own journal and

[00:28:05] just use that time as an excuse to get a little bit introspective and

[00:28:10] be quiet and calm and not rushing around and kind of just use it as like a

[00:28:13] little break in the morning I don't sing the songs you know I just

[00:28:18] kind of stay seated which feels a little uncomfortable but

[00:28:21] usually there's a few people that are sitting down maybe because their

[00:28:24] knee hurts are various reasons but my pastor knows

[00:28:28] everywhere where I'm at he's read my book a lot of the people on the

[00:28:32] elderboard have read my book and so it's not like a big secret that I feel like

[00:28:35] I'm hiding yeah people kind of know and they're not kicking me out so

[00:28:40] our church is really open to doubters and people that are questioning and

[00:28:45] they're not gonna excommunicate me so yeah yeah what I was gonna say it's not

[00:28:49] hidden like this is published out there in the world right

[00:29:03] so obviously you've talked about giving up the idea of God

[00:29:07] are there other beliefs that you feel like you've given up that felt very

[00:29:11] tight to the church or other ideas that you feel like you've moved away from

[00:29:14] since giving up God yeah I think along with that just

[00:29:20] the idea that everything has a plan and that things happen for a reason

[00:29:24] I don't really think that anymore because I don't think that there's

[00:29:28] any kind of higher being in charge so I haven't replaced God with like

[00:29:32] the universe is working in my favor anything

[00:29:36] and so I think that things just happen totally randomly now which

[00:29:40] can be intimidating and scary to think that nobody has my back

[00:29:44] and nobody's you know trying to protect me behind the scenes or that kind of

[00:29:48] thing but at the same time it's very liberating to think

[00:29:51] there is no set plan the universe is just here and I'm

[00:29:55] happen to exist and I'm lucky to have been born in a pretty

[00:29:58] sweet situation as a you know middle class white person in America like I

[00:30:04] am towards the top of the ladder and so to be grateful for that and try to

[00:30:07] use my privilege for good but just the idea that things happen

[00:30:11] for a reason I don't hold to that anymore and so I think that really opens me up

[00:30:15] to be able to take charge of my own life and really have agency and realize

[00:30:19] like things are going to happen if I make them happen or if I try to and

[00:30:23] yes there's still randomness and luck I don't get to just force what I want

[00:30:27] but I do have in that sense control over my

[00:30:30] own life which is kind of liberating to think yeah I feel that a lot too

[00:30:34] and it it lets go of this idea that like if I do this right God will

[00:30:39] provide for me in some way or like maybe I didn't have enough faith or like

[00:30:43] trying to come up with reasons for why it might not have like worked out in your

[00:30:46] favor it's just like well sometimes things do and sometimes things don't

[00:30:50] right it takes all the pressure off yeah was there a lot of grief

[00:30:55] for you around losing God and like this relationship that you had

[00:31:01] definitely yeah the original title to my book was grieving God

[00:31:05] because that is what it felt like it felt like a death

[00:31:08] that this being that I had loved and that I really thought loved me

[00:31:13] was gone and so it felt like a death it was

[00:31:17] definitely a grieving process and still is there's times where just those

[00:31:22] automatic Christian thoughts or habits pop into my mind and it's like

[00:31:26] ugh you know it just like any kind of grief it hits you at

[00:31:29] different times in different ways I had kind of come to this conclusion

[00:31:34] in kind of the end of 2020 and it was sort of around Christmas time

[00:31:40] and I thought that first Christmas was going to be really rough

[00:31:42] but I was surprised that it wasn't I just sort of sailed through it Christmas

[00:31:45] is so commercialized it was kind of easy to just like focus on Santa

[00:31:48] and making it fun for the kids and it wasn't that hard but then that

[00:31:53] first Easter which was then months after I had made this decision I'd

[00:31:56] started writing the book I was feeling like I had been processing a lot I

[00:32:00] thought that was going to be fine and Easter wrecked me

[00:32:02] yeah I was in a bad mood all weekend I was snappy I was irritable

[00:32:10] and I realized that's what it was you know Easter is pretty hard to avoid as

[00:32:14] a Christian holiday yeah you got the Easter Bunny and stuff but

[00:32:18] no longer and I you know I was a very devout Christian I took Easter

[00:32:21] seriously I tried to be solemn and quiet on Good Friday and you know

[00:32:25] be really introspective all weekend and so not having some of those

[00:32:29] rituals anymore was hard and it was hard to know what to do instead and

[00:32:34] I've tried to do a little investigation into some

[00:32:38] older beliefs one thing about not being a Christian or even seeing all

[00:32:41] religions is kind of a man-made invention it actually allows me to

[00:32:46] respect a lot of those other religions or kind of like pick and choose

[00:32:50] concepts from it that I like and so I don't have to think that any of them

[00:32:53] are quote-unquote correct but I can see how they're all these human attempts at

[00:32:58] making meaning and trying to give purpose to our lives and that can be really

[00:33:01] beautiful and so I like some of the older pagan beliefs that I've learned

[00:33:04] about and many of them are very connected to nature and the seasons

[00:33:07] which do line up with Christmas and Easter you know a lot of that was

[00:33:10] appropriated and so I've been trying to sort of lean in I've always been

[00:33:14] a big nature lover anyway and so thinking about things in terms of

[00:33:17] the seasonal cycles and stuff has been kind of fun

[00:33:20] without becoming pagan or you know diving deep into that and

[00:33:24] no shame to anybody who does but yeah so I've kind of liked learning about

[00:33:28] just other ways that humans have made special moments and made rituals and

[00:33:32] if there's something that connects or strikes a chord then I kind of

[00:33:35] pick and choose and grab that out and if not let it go but yeah giving up

[00:33:39] God was definitely a very difficult and

[00:33:43] grief-filled process for sure. Yeah, yeah that's so funny that you said

[00:33:47] that about Easter. I felt that I don't know if it was my first Easter out but

[00:33:51] it was an Easter when I was doing like a lot of hardcore like digging

[00:33:56] things up in therapy and kind of processing like I'd been out for a

[00:34:00] while but I was I was really starting to like dig into what it

[00:34:04] meant and like what I was still holding and Christmas was okay because like I

[00:34:09] love Christmas anyway and like it's such a family time it didn't get

[00:34:13] sucked into or like religion didn't kind of take that over in my mind but

[00:34:18] Easter is like inescapable from this idea that like Jesus died for you because

[00:34:24] you're a bad person. It's like I couldn't get it out of my head all weekend and

[00:34:30] it was so hard and I was so like taken by surprise that Easter was so hard

[00:34:35] because it wasn't like a big thing when I was a Christian like I took it

[00:34:39] seriously but Christmas would have been like a bigger holiday for us

[00:34:42] but yeah Easter was where it really hit me too.

[00:34:46] Are there any other parts of your story that feel really important to share?

[00:34:51] Yeah I would want to say to somebody who's been on a similar boat and honestly

[00:34:54] the reason I wrote my book was feeling so lost and adrift was part of the fear

[00:35:00] and was intimidating but I have found that a life without God still has a lot

[00:35:06] of hope to it and a lot of beauty and a lot of moments of awe and

[00:35:10] transcendence and that hasn't all gone away like I always

[00:35:14] thought those were part of religion but I've realized that those exist with or

[00:35:17] without religion because they're still present in my life and part of that has

[00:35:21] come from feeling more connected to nature through things I've learned about

[00:35:25] evolution like we are literally distantly related to every living thing on

[00:35:29] this planet and that brings me a lot of sense of oneness or some of that

[00:35:33] like bigger picture that I used to attribute to God but

[00:35:36] I can still have that just in a new lens and it can be

[00:35:40] completely secular but I can still feel that connection and then that builds the

[00:35:45] empathy and wanting to help creatures that are suffering more than I happen to

[00:35:50] be at the time and so a lot of the good that religion did bring to my life

[00:35:55] because I had a fairly healthy relationship with God and with religion

[00:35:58] mine wasn't super traumatic or negative a lot of that good has been

[00:36:02] able to stick around just through a new framework and that was a huge

[00:36:06] relief to me and that's kind of the whole second half of my book deals

[00:36:09] with that of like okay I'm not a Christian who am I now

[00:36:14] and where do I get meaning from where does morality come from without God where

[00:36:17] do I get a sense of purpose and I found satisfactory answers to all those

[00:36:22] questions and so to someone who's in that floundering space of having walked away

[00:36:27] or thinking about walking away doesn't know where to go next

[00:36:30] I just would want to comfort them and let them know like

[00:36:33] there is still meaning in life and you can find it even without God

[00:36:39] do you have these moments that come up for you that are still like

[00:36:44] the scary feeling of not having God or this feeling of loneliness or do you feel

[00:36:48] like you've really moved through that I feel like I've moved through it a lot

[00:36:52] a lot from having written the book was a huge therapeutic cathartic experience

[00:36:57] and then now I think I've done like 10 or 11 pot yes talking about the book and so

[00:37:02] saying it over and over again I'm like okay yeah got it it's it's

[00:37:05] now so it's feeling less raw as time goes on for sure

[00:37:11] and yeah it's interesting you know back to like that cognitive bias idea and

[00:37:15] seeing what we want to see it's much easier now to look back and think gosh

[00:37:18] how did I ever believe half of that stuff why was I ever that into it didn't I

[00:37:23] see how that didn't make sense or that was contradictory or so my cognitive

[00:37:27] bias has shifted in support of this atheistic worldview and

[00:37:31] now I find more and more evidence to support that side of the argument so

[00:37:35] it's funny how our brains work but yeah I also find so much more meaning and joy

[00:37:41] in the world outside of Christianity or outside of God and you know I don't

[00:37:46] think people have to find that I think if people find joy in meaning in God I

[00:37:50] have like I'm not in the business of telling people what to believe

[00:37:53] everybody can believe whatever they want I'm not trying to convince anybody

[00:37:56] of anything but for me I have found much more meaning and like satisfaction

[00:38:03] outside of religion and outside of God and I think that that's sometimes a

[00:38:07] misconception about people who leave the church and go down this angry

[00:38:11] atheist path and it's just not what it looks like I've certainly like gone

[00:38:16] through anger as like part of you know grief about leaving this belief system

[00:38:21] or losing God in this way or losing your community but a healthy anger not

[00:38:26] like we're trying to burn the world down you know and I think that's

[00:38:28] sometimes what Christians think of and when they think about atheists we must

[00:38:34] have like no meaning in life it's not true at least for me and not for you and so

[00:38:38] I know that for many other people too. I have less hate because not having any

[00:38:43] religion it's like all of those those us first them teams are gone

[00:38:48] yeah you know and so I feel like there's so many fewer barriers between

[00:38:52] me and anyone else on the planet and so it's more liberating in that

[00:38:56] sense to where I can look at everybody as just a fellow sibling of the human

[00:39:00] family and not this in group out group member yeah so yeah I feel way less

[00:39:06] judgment and just more acceptance and like easy

[00:39:10] like you're saying if you are still a Christian fine whatever if that makes

[00:39:14] you a better person and gives you peace awesome right and if not what you

[00:39:18] know it's kind of the you do you to the extreme

[00:39:21] right as long as it's you know doing no harm yeah like that and that's where it

[00:39:26] gets tricky right is when like religion starts to do harm to other people and

[00:39:30] that's where that's where I have a problem with it and it seems like from

[00:39:34] what you've deconstructed where it starts to break down for you too

[00:39:38] that's a human problem right certainly religion adds a lot of fuel to that

[00:39:42] fire but there's exactly any person can still be unkind or

[00:39:46] unsupportive of different groups of people so

[00:39:48] yeah we all need to try to keep pushing that needle forward right well I know you

[00:39:53] were offering some encouragement before but I'll ask you a little more formally

[00:39:56] and if you have anything more to add you can and if not that's okay

[00:40:00] deconstruction I don't think is ever over I think it's something that once

[00:40:04] you start pulling apart your beliefs you're doing it for a long long long

[00:40:07] time and so I'm wondering what encouragement you

[00:40:11] would offer people who are maybe newly letting go of the idea of God

[00:40:16] and feeling kind of lost in a drift and what encouragement you might offer them

[00:40:21] I would say I'm I'm a big nerd and so I like to read a lot and I've done a lot of

[00:40:26] research on like even thinking of it in terms of religious history and church

[00:40:30] history having that bigger kind of like outside

[00:40:34] perspective of the long timeline and knowing that

[00:40:39] for thousands of years Christianity let alone other religions have had

[00:40:43] 10,000 different versions there was never a time when everybody agreed and was on

[00:40:49] the same page there's always been a wide variety of beliefs

[00:40:52] and so the idea that you were right and now you're wrong or that you were wrong

[00:40:57] and now you're right like we can really let that go and just see that

[00:41:01] humans are just always struggling to make sense of this chaotic random world

[00:41:07] we're living in and that's beautiful and it's okay

[00:41:10] that maybe what you thought before was you don't support anymore don't agree with

[00:41:15] it's a process and life is a mystery and we're allowed to just

[00:41:18] wonder and ask questions and I think that can be beautiful

[00:41:22] it can be intimidating and scary but when you look at it from

[00:41:26] kind of the whole history of humanity I don't know to me there's an element

[00:41:30] that's really touching and beautiful about that just seeing

[00:41:32] we've all asked these questions we all want our lives to have meaning

[00:41:35] and ultimately we get to give our lives meaning we get to choose where

[00:41:38] to devote our energy to and our passion and we can make our life meaningful

[00:41:44] through our relationships and the people that we're with

[00:41:47] and that can exist with or without religion and with or without God

[00:41:52] and so yeah I have found for me there's still a lot of room for hope

[00:41:57] in a world without God and I would encourage

[00:42:00] folks that are nervously one toe in one toe out to just

[00:42:05] one not feel pressured to have to decide you know we've

[00:42:08] I think as Christians we are very compelled to come up with the right

[00:42:12] answers and and be correct but realizing that it's okay to not

[00:42:16] know and it's okay to walk away from deconstruction and just

[00:42:19] take a break for a while and just live your life

[00:42:22] and also that if you choose to totally walk away that there's many others

[00:42:26] who have done it as well and you're not alone

[00:42:28] and you can find folks on the similar path as you and

[00:42:32] and kind of rebuild that community if you lost it so yeah I think there's a lot

[00:42:36] of room for hope but maybe have to put a little effort in to find it

[00:42:39] sometimes yeah absolutely well thank you so much if listeners

[00:42:43] want to connect with you or are interested in reaching out learning

[00:42:47] more about your book where can they find you yes I have a website it's

[00:42:51] sarahenhayward.com that's my full name

[00:42:55] and the book is listed on there it's on amazon or everywhere books are sold

[00:43:00] and then I'm active on Instagram I'm shayward writes on there and so they

[00:43:06] can find me there and there's links to the book on my bio in there too

[00:43:09] awesome and I'll link it all in the show notes so listeners can find you

[00:43:13] easily sounds good all right well thank you so much for being here yeah thanks

[00:43:16] for having me Maggie this was great thanks for listening to another episode

[00:43:21] of hello deconstructionists if you enjoyed this episode or any others

[00:43:25] please like follow or subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it

[00:43:28] leave us a review so other people know what this show is all about if you have

[00:43:32] any questions comments or parts of your own experience you'd like to share on the

[00:43:35] podcast you can email me at hello.dcons at gmail.com

[00:43:40] and as always you can find me over on instagram at hello underscore

[00:43:44] deconstructionists where together we are building community post

[00:43:47] evangelicalism huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing

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