17: Stumbling Out of Evangelicalism with Brandon Flanery

[00:00:00] .

[00:00:30] Hello Deconstructionists, this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively

[00:00:38] share our stories and experiences of leading high control religion along with what it's

[00:00:42] been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:00:48] I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and

[00:00:51] most of all that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:00:54] You are good, you are loved, and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:00:58] Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:01:04] My guest today is Brandon Flannery who uses he-him pronouns.

[00:01:07] Brandon is an ex-pastor, ex-missionary, ex-vangelical who writes about the intersection of faith,

[00:01:13] sexuality, and their consequences.

[00:01:15] He has research and writings published with the Colorado Springs Indy, the University

[00:01:18] of Colorado, and Baptist News Global and his debut book, Stumbling, a sassy memoir

[00:01:23] about coming out of evangelicalism debuted last year.

[00:01:26] You can learn more about him by going to BrandonFlannery.com and I'll link all of that in the show notes

[00:01:31] and we'll share again at the end so people can connect with you.

[00:01:34] But welcome Brandon, thanks so much for being here.

[00:01:36] Oh gosh, yeah.

[00:01:37] Thank you so much for having me Maggie.

[00:01:38] I'm really excited to have a conversation and be on the podcast.

[00:01:41] Yeah this is so exciting.

[00:01:43] Brandon's book is amazing.

[00:01:44] I was just gushing to him about it.

[00:01:46] It's so good and I've been listening to it so Brandon recorded the audiobook version

[00:01:52] So if you're a listener, that's a great way to consume the book.

[00:01:56] It's so good and such a good narrator.

[00:01:58] Okay, I'll stop gushing about it.

[00:02:00] Especially if you want to like, apparently every time I voiced for a pastor, I don't

[00:02:03] know why they sounded like they're from Kentucky or something.

[00:02:06] I don't know why.

[00:02:07] It just happened and I'm like whatever, let's just roll with it.

[00:02:10] I felt like it gave a good flavor of what pastors feel like even if they don't

[00:02:16] have that accent.

[00:02:17] It feels like that, you know?

[00:02:19] Oh my goodness.

[00:02:20] So yeah, that was great.

[00:02:21] Okay, I like to have people start with a little background about their church experience.

[00:02:25] So tell us a little bit about how you grew up and what kind of churches you found yourself

[00:02:30] in.

[00:02:31] Yeah so I drank deep of the evangelical waters is a phrase I like to say because

[00:02:36] I really want gung ho and honestly really loved a lot of my evangelical upbringing

[00:02:42] with some exceptions and then there were some moments on the way that forced me to

[00:02:46] confront what I was a part of.

[00:02:48] My flavor is pretty charismatic, but like maybe tasteful to judgmental in its words,

[00:02:56] but like we would judge the two charismatic people.

[00:03:00] So like it does kind of fit.

[00:03:01] We'd have like some flaggers in the background.

[00:03:04] We'd have a mosh pit of righteousness in the youth group during worship.

[00:03:08] I went to a mega church from 10 to 18.

[00:03:11] It's Ted Haggard's mega church, New Life Church in Colorado Springs.

[00:03:14] Grew up in Colorado Springs dishes.

[00:03:16] We would brag growing up about how we were the evangelical Mecca of the world.

[00:03:21] There's hundreds, if not thousands of Christian nonprofits there.

[00:03:25] It's luckily changing the culture and ministries are leaving.

[00:03:28] But growing up, especially in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was its heyday.

[00:03:33] And so focus on the family, compassion.

[00:03:37] Gosh, where are some other really big ones out there now?

[00:03:39] This is what's nice as I'm losing touch and I'm like, ah, we've gotten some

[00:03:42] distance. The memory is making it fade.

[00:03:46] But yeah, and it's also a big military town.

[00:03:48] So you've got that kind of intimate connection that you see in evangelical

[00:03:52] ism of Christianity meets nationalism.

[00:03:55] And that's something I thought was normal.

[00:03:56] So after growing up and graduating, I really needed to keep giving it to Jesus.

[00:04:01] And so I went to team many ministries in Tyler, Texas was a youth pastor

[00:04:05] for three years in a non-denominational church that was pretty close to

[00:04:09] assemblies of God.

[00:04:10] So again, we believe in being charismatic, but don't get too crazy.

[00:04:14] And then I was a missionary with YWAM for a year and then shortly, really

[00:04:18] towards the end of my YWAM experiences where things started to shift and change

[00:04:22] and my deconstruction journey began.

[00:04:24] So yeah, that's kind of it in a nutshell.

[00:04:27] I'm trying to think if there's any other highlights, baptism, speaking

[00:04:29] in tongues with Ted Haggard being the pastor, you know, for those that

[00:04:32] don't know, he was a pastor who got caught in infidelity with a man.

[00:04:36] And so being raised with that person as my pastor and experiencing how the

[00:04:40] church reacted to him when they found out and kind of either hearing silence or

[00:04:45] judgment towards LGBTQ individuals and being an LGBTQ individual was definitely

[00:04:50] the one asterisk to me saying my evangelical experience was good.

[00:04:54] And then I would unpack it, but in the midst of it, that's the only thing

[00:04:56] I thought was bad.

[00:04:58] And I blamed myself.

[00:04:59] It's not like I was blaming evangelicalism.

[00:05:01] It was like, I'm the problem here.

[00:05:03] Otherwise I was hook line and sinker in evangelicalism until after YWAM.

[00:05:08] Yeah.

[00:05:09] Was YWAM when you did some work abroad?

[00:05:12] Because you, you did a couple of things abroad and was all of that with YWAM?

[00:05:16] Exactly.

[00:05:16] Ah, most of it in the book, I'm trying to think if there are other

[00:05:19] moments that I think all the ones in the book I talk about are with YWAM.

[00:05:23] Specifically Germany and India are the big ones that YWAM was a part of.

[00:05:28] I did some touring through Europe.

[00:05:29] We like were creative arts school.

[00:05:32] And so like we would like street perform and then street evangelize.

[00:05:36] I said like on true occasions that God will save you from homosexuality

[00:05:41] because of course the people who are often the loudest about LGBTQ issues

[00:05:46] are the ones that are a part of the community.

[00:05:48] I like, those are my two things.

[00:05:50] There's like a, I'm so fortunate that I didn't say too many things.

[00:05:54] I'm like, Oh God, what damage did I do as a pastor?

[00:05:59] And I think it's just cause there were some convictions that actually

[00:06:02] were instilled in me in those Christian spaces.

[00:06:05] Which is so interesting because like we said, wait, I want to love like Jesus.

[00:06:10] And then we started doing it.

[00:06:11] And then it's like, wait, wait, wait, not like that.

[00:06:12] And it's like, and so it's so interesting that what the system

[00:06:17] in quotation marks that taught us that we should care for people

[00:06:21] than were those same ones that lost their minds when we started to.

[00:06:24] And that's one of the big reasons that I've seen why people are leaving

[00:06:27] is that what was love and what we were taught was love is actually not love.

[00:06:32] And it's oppression and pain and control.

[00:06:35] So, but most of my overseas things were with YWAM, I did do some short term

[00:06:39] stuff as with teen mania, with my church, with when I was a pastor

[00:06:44] as a good Christian does.

[00:06:48] Thanks Moira.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:52] So you talked about like, it was really a good experience

[00:06:56] minus the LGBTQ stuff.

[00:06:58] What about church was really good?

[00:07:00] What felt really good?

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:02] Cause I think that can be one of the reasons that it can be hard to leave

[00:07:05] at some point is like there are some good things about it.

[00:07:08] So yeah, what were those things for you?

[00:07:10] I mean, they're, they're critical things to a lot of people's mental health.

[00:07:14] It's like a deep community, whether we want to acknowledge it or not.

[00:07:18] And we put an asterisk by it.

[00:07:20] Sure.

[00:07:20] But to be honest, a lot of communities have an in or out element to it.

[00:07:25] I'm not excusing the Christian exclusive community.

[00:07:30] It's horrendous for people and has seriously injured people's psyches.

[00:07:35] But yeah, the community, when you feel like you're on the end,

[00:07:38] it feels really good.

[00:07:39] Like even thinking about like high school and you're part of a good

[00:07:42] clique as bad as it is when you're on the inside, it feels great.

[00:07:46] Right.

[00:07:46] There's like a safety that comes with it being in this group.

[00:07:49] And there's a wall.

[00:07:50] There's like this wall of protection basically.

[00:07:53] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:54] And it's like what comes with that community is also, so the next thing

[00:07:58] I would say is like a moral superiority.

[00:08:00] I'm the good guy.

[00:08:01] I think that that is huge.

[00:08:03] Like I'm making a difference.

[00:08:05] I'm making, I'm doing the good thing and I'm on the right side of history

[00:08:09] is like something that you are ingrained with.

[00:08:12] And when that's not the case, it's a big issue.

[00:08:14] And you're like, oh shit.

[00:08:16] Like we've perpetuated a lot of pain in the world for thousands of years.

[00:08:21] And so that was a big one.

[00:08:23] The other one I'd say is purpose.

[00:08:24] I mean, like, and maybe we all are struggling with existential dread, but

[00:08:30] it's just like, what exactly does my job do to impact and help the world?

[00:08:35] Besides, you know, help me feed myself and other ones and being okay with that.

[00:08:39] You know, I was sold on the fact of like, I have eternal purpose and that

[00:08:46] really helps one's mental health big time.

[00:08:49] And to lose that can be really hard to try to figure out what your purpose is.

[00:08:52] There are psychologists, Victor Frankl, like his whole form of psychology and

[00:08:57] how he would therapy his clients was around purpose because he saw how people

[00:09:03] who had purpose in, he was a death camp survivor from world war two and the

[00:09:08] Holocaust.

[00:09:09] And so the people he saw who could endure were the ones that had a

[00:09:12] purpose even to their pain.

[00:09:13] And so that's something that you now have to remake and that was given

[00:09:16] to you inside of Christianity.

[00:09:18] And then I had a fourth one and it, I lost it once I started talking about

[00:09:22] Victor Frankl.

[00:09:24] The other stuff gets more frivolous, but it's like, if you're a musician,

[00:09:27] you're getting a concert every single week that you get to practice.

[00:09:29] Like I could keep going and going and going.

[00:09:30] I think there are plenty of in quotation marks, good things.

[00:09:33] They are like community purpose, feeling like you have this ego of that

[00:09:38] you're safe because you're on the good team, like are all things that

[00:09:42] are huge.

[00:09:42] Oh, and the last one I'd be as safety for after death.

[00:09:45] Like if you believe you're the good one and you have this promise of heaven,

[00:09:49] that is something that feels really good.

[00:09:51] It makes you feel really safe.

[00:09:53] Like I could take risks as a Christian because I'm like, God's got my back.

[00:09:58] And like, I do stupid ass shit, like hitchhiking through Europe or like

[00:10:02] going all over the place and like hanging out with strangers.

[00:10:04] And it's just like, I probably should have had a healthy dose of fear,

[00:10:09] but this belief that I was held by this God that liked me and that even

[00:10:14] if I died, I would be safe on the other side because I was going to heaven.

[00:10:18] I think those are all things that were great and in themselves are good

[00:10:23] things to hold onto, maybe not moral superiority to other people, but to

[00:10:28] believe that you are good, I think is a great thing.

[00:10:31] And it's a weird double edged sword because if you're not following

[00:10:33] the rules, then you're evil and bad.

[00:10:35] And you're also always evil and bad, but God has made you good,

[00:10:38] but you're still evil and bad.

[00:10:39] So it's just like everything else.

[00:10:41] I mean, you'll go Christianity, a cluster mind.

[00:10:44] It's a mind fog.

[00:10:45] Yeah.

[00:10:45] You can swear on the podcast.

[00:10:47] All good.

[00:10:47] Okay.

[00:10:47] I was like, wait, what are the rules?

[00:10:49] Here's unconditional love PS here.

[00:10:51] All the conditions that all conditional it's just the gymnastics, but in

[00:10:54] itself to believe that you are good is a beautiful thing.

[00:10:59] Yeah.

[00:10:59] Yeah.

[00:11:00] And to believe that like you are doing these things because you

[00:11:04] believe they're the right things.

[00:11:05] And that's the way that I kind of look at moral superiority now and

[00:11:09] the way that it felt good in the church, aside from like a little bit of like,

[00:11:13] yes, I'm better than those other heathens out there, which is very unhealthy.

[00:11:17] But I think a healthy piece of it was that like, I'm doing these things in

[00:11:20] the world because it's the right thing to do and that feels good for ourselves.

[00:11:25] And that's something that we can have outside of the church without

[00:11:28] the unhealthy parts of I have it better than you.

[00:11:31] Cause even inside it, my mega church, everyone in New

[00:11:34] Collier Springs was a Christian.

[00:11:36] So like even the moral superiority of I went to a Christian school and was

[00:11:40] trying to quote unquote, save my peers.

[00:11:42] Cause you weren't in the right Christian expression.

[00:11:45] Like I really liked Jesus.

[00:11:48] You just kind of like him.

[00:11:50] So yeah, that superiority in general is one of the bad things.

[00:11:55] But you had to be the best of Christians.

[00:11:58] Yeah.

[00:11:59] You had to be like the top Christian because you had to get everything

[00:12:03] right to go to heaven.

[00:12:04] Like you had to believe the right things.

[00:12:06] And so it's like, you had to convince yourself that like there was one right

[00:12:10] way because that's the right way to get to heaven and you had to believe that

[00:12:14] you believed those things and that other people were wrong sort of like

[00:12:17] built into the, to the foundation of the belief system.

[00:12:21] Absolutely.

[00:12:22] Which now that I've left for a long time, I thought my kind of like

[00:12:27] evangelical Christian is like the only flavor and like even the other ones,

[00:12:31] like I said, weren't right.

[00:12:33] But I was never exposed to expressions of Christianity that are so much

[00:12:38] older than evangelicalism that believe that everyone's going to heaven.

[00:12:42] Like Christian universalism, like that's an old belief theology.

[00:12:47] We now even evangelicalism it's viewed as heresy and like something new

[00:12:52] that these like millennials and Gen Zers who just want to sin and leave

[00:12:55] the church are picking up on it's older than the expressions of

[00:12:59] Christianity that we currently experience in evangelicalism.

[00:13:02] The idea that someone can be morally good and get to heaven too, is like

[00:13:08] an old tradition, like CS Lewis for crying out loud who evangelicals

[00:13:12] love to quote, believe that people of other face could make it to heaven.

[00:13:18] Maybe like what's new and considering is oblivion, but also like the

[00:13:22] Sadducees that's what separated them from the Pharisees as they did not

[00:13:25] believe in an afterlife.

[00:13:27] So like these things that we're considering, they're not new.

[00:13:30] And it's just been interesting to like bump into different flavors of

[00:13:34] Christianity that have been there longer.

[00:13:35] I just was sold on the lie that I had to only express Christianity this way,

[00:13:41] which I'm not a Christian anymore, but there was a transitory space where

[00:13:44] I lived in that progressive Christian arena and that legacy is something

[00:13:50] that is really beautiful.

[00:13:50] Like I do attend a Quaker meeting probably about once a month.

[00:13:54] They've been at the forefront of most social justice issues before anyone

[00:13:59] else for a very long time.

[00:14:00] Like they were creating LGBTQ support systems in the forties.

[00:14:05] Like they were the first white individuals who helped with smuggling

[00:14:10] black slaves out of the South.

[00:14:12] Anyway, I mean, and Quakerism isn't just specifically for white people,

[00:14:16] but it was born in Europe.

[00:14:17] So you're going to get more white people in that space.

[00:14:20] Now in this community that I attend, it is super diverse in age, in race,

[00:14:26] in gender expression, in sexual orientation.

[00:14:30] And so it's just been so cool to be like, oh, this is an older tradition.

[00:14:35] And I didn't even really know it existed and it could be used as a

[00:14:39] tool for spiritual connection if I want to utilize it.

[00:14:43] And it doesn't have to be connected to this bullshit that I was connected

[00:14:46] to. That's honestly actually fairly new, especially evangelicalism,

[00:14:50] like in fundamentalism is a fairly new phenomenon.

[00:14:53] Yeah. Yeah. And it's wild that like we kind of twisted things or like

[00:14:57] shifted things enough recently and then said, by the way, this is the right

[00:15:01] way and the only right way. How do we just like get rid of all the

[00:15:04] acceptance and love that came before?

[00:15:06] Not that it was perfect before by any means.

[00:15:08] You did a lot of shit then too.

[00:15:10] Oh, absolutely. I mean, if you look at Inquisitions, like conquering

[00:15:14] the world in the name of Christ, like there's lots of things in ancient times

[00:15:17] that's also terrible. Right. In the name of Christ, the Crusades.

[00:15:21] But I think that this is something I consider quite a bit is I think that

[00:15:25] audacity is probably the best way of putting it.

[00:15:27] I have the right answer, even though it's only been so long, is

[00:15:31] something that we've inherited from Luther.

[00:15:34] I mean, you had a Christian empire entity that was fairly

[00:15:39] global that one man eventually it was more than him.

[00:15:43] But like we attribute it to him said that I know better, which I mean, it was

[00:15:48] really good that he did bring up stuff because he had some horrific things

[00:15:51] happening in the Catholic Church that he called out and hoped to change the

[00:15:55] Catholic Church. But eventually he said, I'm right.

[00:15:58] And we're going to all unite together.

[00:16:00] And so then you had from his point forward, you would have this

[00:16:04] continual audacity of, well, wait, I have the right answer.

[00:16:07] Oh, wait, I have the right answer.

[00:16:08] And then you continue to keep getting factions of different expressions

[00:16:12] of Christianity. So like the fact that evangelicalism dared to do it recently and

[00:16:16] recent times doesn't surprise me because since Protestantism's inception,

[00:16:21] that's kind of something that was in our birth moment.

[00:16:24] There's this ancient thing I'm attached to.

[00:16:26] It's problematic. But I found the answer.

[00:16:28] I mean, you talk a lot about like the importance of branding and

[00:16:32] Christianity. This is sort of like Protestant brand.

[00:16:36] The Protestant brand is like we are the small subset that knows better.

[00:16:40] Yes.

[00:16:41] And you're right. That was in our birth with like Martin Luther.

[00:16:44] And that's where I think that believing you have the right answer is going to

[00:16:48] continue to fracture us.

[00:16:50] Because if you think about the birth of Protestantism, we've been fractured

[00:16:54] into, I think, thousands of denominations, how you're splitting it up and

[00:16:58] like regionally and internationally versus the Catholic Church.

[00:17:02] That's a whole nother conversation.

[00:17:03] I wasn't raised Catholic. I'm not going to critique that system.

[00:17:05] I wasn't part of it, but it's only fractured three times.

[00:17:09] And so it's because in that space, it is okay to have different answers.

[00:17:15] You know, I have a friend that recently was a part of a spiritual

[00:17:19] director's course and is pro LGBTQ.

[00:17:23] He's a great guy and was learning from these lesbian nuns and they're

[00:17:29] phenomenal and great and they critique the pope and it's not an issue.

[00:17:35] They're not so much out loud.

[00:17:37] I don't know about that, but like you have like these different sex and

[00:17:39] beliefs inside of Catholicism that they are still Catholic and they still

[00:17:43] have this unity that exists there in spite of their disagreements.

[00:17:47] You don't see that in Protestantism.

[00:17:48] It's very much so.

[00:17:49] I have the right answer.

[00:17:50] It's so interesting because I always have thought about it like the

[00:17:53] opposite way because there is the pope that is like the one central

[00:17:59] authority at the top of that whole thing.

[00:18:01] And Protestantism doesn't have one central authority figure except God,

[00:18:05] I guess, but we all hear something different from God.

[00:18:08] And so in that way, it's like Protestantism as a big umbrella kind

[00:18:12] of has all these different answers.

[00:18:15] But the difference is we think the other ones are wrong generally.

[00:18:19] Yeah.

[00:18:19] I mean like the term Catholicism, like gosh, I'm going to mess this

[00:18:23] up because it's been a while, but the universal church is like

[00:18:26] the idea behind Catholicism.

[00:18:28] And so like bringing things in is not uncommon.

[00:18:30] You go to Latin America and you see an experience of Catholicism.

[00:18:35] It's going to look very different than what we experience here in the United States.

[00:18:38] I went to Haiti and experienced a flavor of Catholicism that incorporates

[00:18:42] voodoo into their flavor of Catholicism.

[00:18:46] And like it's been a part of their tradition of Catholicism for ever.

[00:18:51] And they are still Catholic versus like if there was a Methodist woman

[00:18:56] minister who's a lesbian and she believes that there is no hell, I'm

[00:19:01] going to be over here as a Protestant saying you're not an actual

[00:19:03] Christian in Catholicism.

[00:19:06] You still can be.

[00:19:07] Yeah, in Protestantism we put the label on other people.

[00:19:11] We're like you don't believe the right thing so you are not a Christian.

[00:19:14] You are not the right kind of Christian.

[00:19:16] I know what it is.

[00:19:17] I get to make that call, which is really a pattern in a lot of ways and a lot

[00:19:21] of things in the church and the flavors of church that we both grew up in.

[00:19:24] It sounds like that.

[00:19:26] Like people make the call for other people.

[00:19:28] Like we take people's own autonomy and choice away, which is so damaging.

[00:19:33] Yeah.

[00:19:34] I think one of the most healing things for me and most difficult things for

[00:19:38] me in post deconstruction has been agency and recognizing my own agency.

[00:19:45] I think that there was a big part of my work was trusting my wants and

[00:19:49] going after my wants and maybe it didn't work out and that's okay.

[00:19:53] Cause there was this belief that if I found the secret mysterious divine

[00:19:57] will that isn't clear and some you have to figure out for some reason,

[00:20:00] but God won't tell you if you found it, there was this like promise of safety.

[00:20:04] There's this promise that you'd be blessed.

[00:20:06] There's this promise of at least in mind.

[00:20:08] So very much so like hidden prosperity gospel, even though they wouldn't claim

[00:20:12] that it's still the same thing.

[00:20:15] And so if bad things happen, it's cause you got off the path.

[00:20:19] And so now it's like, well, I could try something and

[00:20:23] it's neither good nor bad.

[00:20:24] It just is.

[00:20:26] And there are consequences to those.

[00:20:28] And I have to think through my choices and am I comfortable with those

[00:20:31] consequences, whether good or bad for myself and other people.

[00:20:35] And it could be a wrong choice.

[00:20:36] It might not go really well in the book.

[00:20:38] Like one of the biggest things that was critical for me that really shook

[00:20:43] me in a beautiful way was trying to take a leap of faith and move back

[00:20:48] overseas and it didn't turn out okay.

[00:20:50] And did that make this choice wrong?

[00:20:52] I don't believe that anymore.

[00:20:54] I don't believe in these big right or wrong choices.

[00:20:57] In fact, even with like really big moral ones, like killing people, I'm just like,

[00:21:01] actually don't see right or wrong anymore.

[00:21:02] But I see that you're causing pain in the world to yourself and other people.

[00:21:07] And so I look at those things when it comes to the consequences and outcomes

[00:21:10] and also who do I want to be as a human being?

[00:21:12] Like, do I want to be a person that holds onto hatred?

[00:21:16] No, I don't because that has consequences to myself and the people around me.

[00:21:18] And that's not the type of person that I want to end up being at the end

[00:21:21] of my life.

[00:21:23] We're kind of going on a tangent at this point, cause I like could go on

[00:21:25] about identity and all these other things that I think that we have to find

[00:21:28] after evangelicals.

[00:21:29] But the biggest one for me was my agency and owning what I wanted and just

[00:21:33] trying.

[00:21:34] And I'm very grateful for that.

[00:21:35] Well, I'm going to nerd out for a minute.

[00:21:37] I'm a teacher in my real life and you were a teacher for a little while

[00:21:41] too. Is that right?

[00:21:41] I was too.

[00:21:42] I love, oh my God, I love, I, my heart is still like an education.

[00:21:47] Just my pocketbook can't be anymore.

[00:21:49] That's fair.

[00:21:50] That's very fair.

[00:21:52] I'm like, I can't because I broke so much of my life and poured it all out into

[00:21:56] ministry.

[00:21:56] I think that if I didn't do ministry first, I'd still be an educator.

[00:21:59] But there's this thing that happened to me where it's like, I've been poor

[00:22:01] for so long because of trying to prove that I'm a good Christian.

[00:22:06] I cannot start another career where I'm going to continue to be poor and

[00:22:10] struggle.

[00:22:11] I just cannot anymore, but I love education.

[00:22:13] I love being with kids, especially middle school.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:15] So what do you educate?

[00:22:17] So I teach K to five music.

[00:22:19] So,

[00:22:20] love.

[00:22:21] Oh my God.

[00:22:21] Yeah, the little guys, they're so much fun and so much work and I love them

[00:22:25] so much.

[00:22:25] So as you're talking about the things in church that are good, I'm noticing

[00:22:31] these like, so here's where I'm going to nerd out.

[00:22:33] I love keeping in mind the shit.

[00:22:35] What's it called?

[00:22:36] Development?

[00:22:37] Motivation, self motivation theory.

[00:22:39] Things that we need to keep us motivated to be doing what we're doing.

[00:22:43] And I use this in my teaching to think, am I helping kids to be

[00:22:47] motivated, especially with my like older fourth and fifth graders?

[00:22:50] You know, they're like one, you have to keep them motivated to keep them,

[00:22:53] keep them learning.

[00:22:54] And the three things are autonomy.

[00:22:57] So you have choice mastery.

[00:22:59] It's something that you can like excel at.

[00:23:01] You can, you can do it.

[00:23:02] You can achieve it and purpose or relatedness.

[00:23:05] And so you're like related to the people around you in some way and you

[00:23:09] have this feeling of community basically.

[00:23:12] And in all the things that you said that are good about the church, we

[00:23:16] have, we have two of them, but we don't have autonomy.

[00:23:19] So like we have community and purpose and this like connectedness

[00:23:24] and we have moral superiority and that like, okay, we are becoming

[00:23:29] better in like the good way.

[00:23:30] If we think about the healthy version of that, it's like we are able

[00:23:33] to know what's good in the world and then to do it.

[00:23:36] And we can do really well at that.

[00:23:38] But the thing that we're missing is autonomy.

[00:23:40] So like it can only keep us in there for so long if we really, if

[00:23:45] we value our agency.

[00:23:46] And I think as we grow up, we're suddenly like, oh shit, we don't

[00:23:50] have any choice in here.

[00:23:52] Like even in the ways that they tell us we have choice, it's not our choice.

[00:23:57] It's like you have to make the choice.

[00:23:59] What is God's voice here?

[00:24:00] Is it to go overseas or is it to stay here?

[00:24:02] But it's not really choice.

[00:24:04] And so yeah, finding that agency and moving out of the church was

[00:24:08] huge for you, it seems like, and huge for me.

[00:24:10] And I think huge for a lot of us.

[00:24:13] Yeah.

[00:24:13] And just like, kind of, I know this is weird, but even the terror of choice,

[00:24:17] I think that like, like using the language of either atrophy or immature,

[00:24:20] like there are elements of agency that I felt like a kid when I deconstructed.

[00:24:27] Yes.

[00:24:27] And here I am like, honestly, like, even though my deconstruction

[00:24:30] started at the age of 23, 24, it was a long ass process.

[00:24:34] And so like owning my agency probably didn't come in until like 28, 29 and 34 now.

[00:24:41] And so there are pieces of me where it's like, I feel so young because I,

[00:24:47] like, like stumbling to take my title.

[00:24:50] Like we're especially around agency and stuff like that, where I'm like, man,

[00:24:53] I should have more comp- I actually really realized this a year ago,

[00:24:58] where so much of my confidence was connected to this divine belief and

[00:25:06] community.

[00:25:07] And so I like, instead of like where confidence typically comes from,

[00:25:12] like if I'm wanting to become a better cook and you probably use this all the

[00:25:16] damn time as a teacher, but like, um, I had a therapist that was like, we were

[00:25:20] working on my self-confidence.

[00:25:21] I'm like, if you tell me to fucking look in a mirror and say, you've got

[00:25:25] this, I'm going to punch you in the face because it does not help.

[00:25:28] Like I need a different strategy.

[00:25:30] And he was just like, I wasn't going to say that.

[00:25:32] I'm like, okay, I, you're, I'm going to keep paying you.

[00:25:35] And, or health insurance as well.

[00:25:38] And so he was like, he just goes, no, like how we build confidence is you,

[00:25:42] uh, let's say you wanted to become a confident cook.

[00:25:45] What you would do first is you would watch someone else cook and then maybe

[00:25:49] you'd follow their instructions with being a cook and then you would do

[00:25:53] more and more and more cooking.

[00:25:55] And how we get confidence is time and experience with a task and slowly

[00:26:01] becoming better over time.

[00:26:02] That's how we become confident.

[00:26:04] It takes time and energy.

[00:26:07] And so we need to build trust in yourself that you can make good choices.

[00:26:11] And that just takes time.

[00:26:13] And to be gracious on, you don't, you know, when a kid is learning

[00:26:15] a language or learning to walk, we don't get angry with them.

[00:26:18] It's one of the reasons why language acquisition is so

[00:26:21] much more difficult as adults.

[00:26:23] This is one of my nerding out moments because I have a teaching

[00:26:25] English as secondary language certification.

[00:26:28] Linguist and she looks at language acquisition, like first language

[00:26:32] acquisition, so very cool.

[00:26:34] I just, I'm so bad at languages.

[00:26:36] And this is probably one of the reasons is the reason that kids, there's

[00:26:41] obviously like brain stuff happening where it's easier to adopt language

[00:26:45] at that time because we're forming a lot of pathways in our brain.

[00:26:48] And so just like where our brain is at in its functionality is it makes

[00:26:53] it easier, but another key reason is no one is over here when a one year

[00:26:58] old is saying da da saying like, come on, it's dad, what the hell's

[00:27:03] wrong with you?

[00:27:04] Right.

[00:27:05] Get it together.

[00:27:06] We're like, Oh my God, you're doing better.

[00:27:09] Even though it's literally baby steps.

[00:27:12] And so there's room for mistakes.

[00:27:14] 100%.

[00:27:15] And room for mistakes.

[00:27:17] You can look like an idiot.

[00:27:19] Every little step is a win.

[00:27:20] Even when you fall down, it's technically a win.

[00:27:23] Like if we're talking about walking, like when a kid falls, that's

[00:27:25] a part of the process and we're just like, Oh my God, you did five steps.

[00:27:29] We're not like, Oh my God, you fell down.

[00:27:30] Like, Oh my God, this time you did seven steps.

[00:27:33] And so the lack of fear of failure empowers us to learn language so much

[00:27:39] easier when as an adult, we've learned to be ashamed and I would say even

[00:27:44] more so in high control religious spaces of you better perform in this exact

[00:27:50] way or you will receive shame.

[00:27:53] And it makes it very scary to try new things.

[00:27:55] It makes it very scary to fail.

[00:27:56] And so my agency was terrifying because I didn't want to fail and to

[00:28:00] accept failure as a part of the journey, to accept that failure is a part of

[00:28:05] learning, I think is something that not even just inside of Christianity, but

[00:28:09] I would even say in the education system as someone who's nerding out

[00:28:12] in pedagogy is like, how do you measure learning is an argument

[00:28:16] tailors all this time because I don't want to penalize a kid who had a D

[00:28:19] at the beginning of the course and now has an A.

[00:28:21] In fact, that's amazing.

[00:28:22] It means we, it worked.

[00:28:24] We did our job, but that doesn't look good on a report card.

[00:28:28] So you have to arrive learned in order to get into a good college or a good school

[00:28:33] instead of having report cards that reflect growth of learning and learning

[00:28:37] acquisition rather than knowing the right answers.

[00:28:40] Yeah.

[00:28:41] So how did this, how did this play out for you in developing your own agency

[00:28:46] and what were some ways that you practiced having choice and living with

[00:28:52] the sometimes a success and sometimes a failure kind of feelings?

[00:28:56] Yeah.

[00:28:56] I think two things for a while.

[00:28:58] I just, if I wanted something, I let wanting it be enough, even if it maybe

[00:29:05] wasn't necessarily like quote unquote good, I suspended judgment for a bit.

[00:29:09] So like an example of this is like me coming terms with my sexuality.

[00:29:13] I talk about this too in the book as like, it was balled up for so long

[00:29:15] that I was just like, I just want to have sex and I don't care what the

[00:29:19] context is and so like owning like my body and heart desire this.

[00:29:25] I'm going to put no attachment and no judgment to this at the moment.

[00:29:28] I'm just going to own that I want this and move towards it.

[00:29:31] Yeah.

[00:29:31] That's a bigger one.

[00:29:32] Simple, stupid little ones is like, I don't really feel as comfortable

[00:29:36] in this shirt today.

[00:29:37] I'm going to go change because I'm just going to honor the fact

[00:29:40] that I have agency.

[00:29:41] I'm going to honor the fact that I want to make a different choice.

[00:29:43] Yeah.

[00:29:44] It was so little and simple and then it gets easier and easier and easier.

[00:29:49] But first it's really uncomfortable and starting small is a great place.

[00:29:51] Like something like eating.

[00:29:53] Simple one was like, I actually hate asparagus.

[00:29:56] Why do I have to keep eating it?

[00:29:57] Why do I keep ordering it?

[00:29:59] I'm an adult.

[00:29:59] I can make whatever choice I want.

[00:30:01] I'm not going to eat asparagus anymore and like owning that.

[00:30:04] Cause also I think that for some of us who aren't connect with our agency,

[00:30:07] a great place to start is what do I, what do I not want?

[00:30:11] Maybe you can't identify what you want yet.

[00:30:13] Maybe that is something so foreign to you.

[00:30:15] What are some things you don't want and like own those things?

[00:30:18] If you're having a conversation where you're feeling uncomfortable

[00:30:21] and it's like, I am so taxed right now.

[00:30:22] Letting it be enough to be like, Hey, thank you for talking.

[00:30:25] I'm actually going to head out.

[00:30:26] Thank you so much for the time and taking space and owning that when

[00:30:30] you know that there's at least a don't want, and then maybe you can start

[00:30:33] like playing with the smaller wants and then you get to big wants.

[00:30:36] And the biggest thing that has empowered me with agency is

[00:30:39] fucking up so badly and surviving.

[00:30:46] And so now because of that, I have such a trust that I can make it.

[00:30:51] Even if it, if it blows up, very few people sold everything, moved

[00:30:55] across the country and immediately had to fucking move back because someone

[00:31:00] died that they were really close to weeks after moving at the age of 31.

[00:31:06] Just getting my bachelor's degree because of fucking evangelicalism and me

[00:31:10] giving so much of my time and energy there and it not turning into a

[00:31:14] degree and a career and having to start over late.

[00:31:18] Like there's been so many moments where I'm like, I went back to school at 25.

[00:31:21] That's not fun.

[00:31:22] And like the right way to do it, but I did it.

[00:31:24] I moved overseas and it didn't go well because someone died and I had

[00:31:27] to move back and start over and now I don't have a career and I'm still here.

[00:31:31] So the fear of failure is so paralyzing.

[00:31:37] And now I'm in a space where I'm like, let's try.

[00:31:39] And that's one of the reasons why I'm in Atlanta.

[00:31:41] People ask me, why are you there?

[00:31:42] Like, was there a crew thing or all this stuff?

[00:31:44] I'm like, I have a remote job.

[00:31:45] It just seemed like maybe it was a good fit.

[00:31:47] I don't know.

[00:31:47] Yeah.

[00:31:48] I'm just going to try it on.

[00:31:49] And like, I have a remote job.

[00:31:51] If it doesn't go well, I can make a different choice.

[00:31:54] It's also been something that's really been powerful with taking ownership of

[00:31:57] where I've been causing harm in the world.

[00:31:59] The whole issue with Israel and Palestine right now.

[00:32:01] I'm like, I was raised a Zionist, a Christian Zionist.

[00:32:04] And like, I had to take stock of, oh, I've been a part of the problem

[00:32:09] and I want to change and do different.

[00:32:11] I'm so sorry.

[00:32:11] I made choices that have hurt people.

[00:32:14] I want to make a different choice though.

[00:32:16] And so it is never too late to stop learning.

[00:32:19] It is never too late to make mistakes.

[00:32:22] And honestly, the more mistakes you make, the more you're going to grow and

[00:32:25] learn that you're going to make it through and survive.

[00:32:29] And so yeah, I think the biggest thing for my agency has been

[00:32:32] fucking up and getting back up.

[00:32:34] Yeah.

[00:32:35] And it's such a process to learn that every decision doesn't have a

[00:32:39] right and a wrong.

[00:32:41] Like what shirt do you want to wear?

[00:32:43] Or like, is it the right choice or the wrong choice to move across the country?

[00:32:47] Maybe there isn't a right and wrong.

[00:32:48] Like it's okay to just try it and see if you like it.

[00:32:52] There's not like a moral.

[00:32:54] I don't know.

[00:32:54] Like every decision in Christianity had this moral, these moral

[00:32:57] consequences and they were permanent.

[00:33:00] Like these permanent, like life altering, eternity altering decisions.

[00:33:05] And to just take the seriousness out of these questions, I think is really

[00:33:11] helpful because it makes each choice feel less.

[00:33:14] It makes each choice feel less high as high.

[00:33:16] Yeah.

[00:33:17] The stakes aren't as high.

[00:33:17] And sometimes there are, sometimes there are choices where there's going

[00:33:20] to be big consequences, but have you practiced with the small ones

[00:33:23] where it's like, you're now comfortable with that.

[00:33:25] If you make a choice of like, you know, I don't think this marriage is

[00:33:28] serving me and my partner anymore or our kids or whatever it may be.

[00:33:32] That's a big decision.

[00:33:35] But if you've been able to practice and you're just like, no, like I, you

[00:33:38] know, maybe I don't like this person as much anymore, but like, we really

[00:33:42] love, this is a conversation I have one of my dearest friends, he like

[00:33:46] is in this marriage and he's just like me and my partner, we not

[00:33:49] probably the best fit anymore, but like we really love

[00:33:52] parenting our kids together.

[00:33:54] And so how do we create a creative solution where we can, we like

[00:33:58] the life that we've built.

[00:33:59] We don't really want to go off and do these other things.

[00:34:01] Like we love this.

[00:34:02] Does that mean opening up our marriage?

[00:34:04] Cause there's no right or wrong anymore.

[00:34:05] Does this mean that like we co-parent and live in separate spaces and try

[00:34:10] to make it work with our kids?

[00:34:11] Like what are ways where I can practice being creative with my agency

[00:34:16] that is going to serve me and the people around me.

[00:34:19] Yeah, because it's no longer what is God's will here.

[00:34:23] It's like, what are some options?

[00:34:26] And that's where you get to be creative.

[00:34:28] Like you said, like what are some other options that maybe

[00:34:30] I haven't thought of yet?

[00:34:31] And I, one thing around that too is I think that sometimes maybe the answer

[00:34:36] might look a little bit like what we experienced before.

[00:34:39] Maybe, maybe it is like in that scenario with like not being great with the

[00:34:44] partner, it's like, maybe you do stay in the marriage, but not because of

[00:34:47] the fact that you can't get divorced because God said it could just be

[00:34:53] cause it's a good fit for you.

[00:34:55] And so it's really interesting.

[00:34:56] Cause I think for all of us in deconstructing, there's a season

[00:34:59] of like, we don't want to look at anything like what we had before.

[00:35:02] And so we run the opposite, which I think is very important.

[00:35:05] It's a safety factor.

[00:35:06] Just get out of dodge, get out of there, create distance from this thing.

[00:35:10] But eventually my hope for any person deconstructing is that there's enough

[00:35:13] space where they can kind of reorient themselves and make choices that are

[00:35:19] true to themselves, even if some of them do look a little bit like

[00:35:21] evangelicalism.

[00:35:22] Yeah.

[00:35:23] It was a process for me to realize that like at first I left the

[00:35:27] church and it felt like everything that the church said was good is now bad.

[00:35:31] And everything the church said was bad is now good.

[00:35:33] And then to kind of realize that it's much more nuanced than that.

[00:35:38] And there are some things that the church said was good, that still

[00:35:42] might be good for me and not because the church said it was good, but just

[00:35:45] because objectively that feels good for me.

[00:35:48] That's an okay thing.

[00:35:49] It kind of goes back to child development.

[00:35:50] I know that we're kind of nerding out on this right now, but like, I

[00:35:53] learned this from an older man in this like men's group that I talk about

[00:35:56] in the book that was actually huge for me in learning agency and identity.

[00:36:00] A two-year-old will often say no to things, even if they want them

[00:36:05] because they're trying to form identity.

[00:36:06] Yeah.

[00:36:07] And so we learn identity with nos actually.

[00:36:10] And we also learn it with the emotion of anger.

[00:36:13] Like it helps us see like, this is my boundary of where I begin.

[00:36:17] Yes.

[00:36:17] Don't cross that boundary.

[00:36:19] Yeah.

[00:36:19] It's where you begin and you're separate from this group, whether

[00:36:22] it's your parents or the church, you know, any of those.

[00:36:26] Yeah.

[00:36:26] Like before this moment in, you know, they call it the terrible twos, but

[00:36:29] like literally up until that moment, a kid's conception of identity and that

[00:36:33] I am different than my mom is forming.

[00:36:36] And that doesn't look pretty on the outside all the time.

[00:36:39] You know, I was babysitting one of my friend's kids and I love like

[00:36:43] empowering agency because of probably like my little soap box.

[00:36:45] So like this, I was going around giving her, I was like, do you want

[00:36:48] grapes?

[00:36:48] And like the younger boy was like, yeah.

[00:36:50] And like, he's like one, one and a half.

[00:36:52] So I'm like giving him one.

[00:36:53] And then I get to the two, three year old and I was like, do you want

[00:36:56] grapes?

[00:36:56] She just goes, no.

[00:36:57] I'm like, okay.

[00:36:58] And then so I put grapes for myself and I put the grapes back in the

[00:37:00] fridge and then we're like munching on our grapes and she's like, I

[00:37:04] want grapes and I go, you get to live with your choice.

[00:37:10] But it's so important like that.

[00:37:12] Like, and I could give her the grapes later, but like, I also like

[00:37:15] people learn from the consequences.

[00:37:16] So, um, but like she, she actually wanted the grapes.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:20] It just took her a little bit of time to say, but she needed to

[00:37:22] say no first so she can see I am my person.

[00:37:26] Yeah.

[00:37:26] And it's your choice to have the grapes.

[00:37:27] Somebody else isn't choosing it for you.

[00:37:29] You can say no.

[00:37:29] Yeah.

[00:37:30] And that's where adolescence comes in because another moment of us

[00:37:32] forming identity.

[00:37:33] So it makes a lot of sense that there is this almost like, I guess

[00:37:37] spiritual adolescence that we go through of like, I am becoming my

[00:37:41] own where I'm going to say no.

[00:37:43] And maybe actually later given enough time, I might say yes to that.

[00:37:46] Like maybe, you know, for me, something that I learned is like, I

[00:37:50] had a lot of sex coming out of evangelicalism with lots of people.

[00:37:53] I don't even remember their names and me now learning like, what do

[00:37:56] I want my sexual health and ethics to look like?

[00:38:01] Not the church, but for a while I needed to kind of pick the

[00:38:04] opposite thing for a little bit.

[00:38:05] Like a toddler being like, no, whatever you want, I'm going over here.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:09] And then once I got space, I was like, okay, what do I want actually?

[00:38:13] Does it look like marriage?

[00:38:14] Does it not?

[00:38:15] Yeah.

[00:38:16] And I think it's easy for people, especially people in the church

[00:38:19] to look at the deconstruction community and be like, they're just leaving

[00:38:23] the church because they want to sin or whatever, or they are super angry.

[00:38:28] That's the thing I hear a lot.

[00:38:29] Like they're, they're just so angry in the deconstruction community.

[00:38:32] And there's so much more to it than that, of course, but also there is

[00:38:36] anger and that's good for good reason.

[00:38:40] And like, yeah.

[00:38:41] And maybe we are making decisions that the church would view as sinful

[00:38:45] and maybe we're doing it too, sin.

[00:38:47] Maybe we're not.

[00:38:49] It's different for everybody, but like it's okay if we are like part of that is

[00:38:53] separating ourselves from the church because that's what we have to do in order

[00:38:58] to figure out who we are apart from that.

[00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:01] Absolutely.

[00:39:07] I'm going to shift us a little bit, although we could, we could nerd out for,

[00:39:13] like again, you never know where a podcast is going to go.

[00:39:15] I did not think we would talk about like the history of the Protestant church, but

[00:39:19] oh, we did.

[00:39:22] I'm curious about like what led you to shift out of the church.

[00:39:27] Like I know that homosexuality and like the church's views on LGBTQ people is

[00:39:32] is a big part of it, but, and you can talk about that.

[00:39:34] And are there other things as well that caused you to start to leave?

[00:39:38] Yeah.

[00:39:38] So LGBTQ came later actually for me, it started with this probably for a lot

[00:39:43] of people. It's not original, the problem of pain.

[00:39:46] I experienced a lot of pain.

[00:39:47] So that was probably the first one in India in particular.

[00:39:50] And then in my own family, like there was a lot of mirroring of what I

[00:39:53] experienced in the world with strangers, specifically a woman named

[00:39:57] Angeline in India and then also my brother.

[00:40:02] They both, she lost leg.

[00:40:04] My brother nearly lost his leg.

[00:40:05] And so the similarities are pretty similar.

[00:40:08] They're, they're stark.

[00:40:09] Is Angeline the one in the book who you take outside?

[00:40:12] Yeah.

[00:40:13] And she hasn't like gone outside.

[00:40:14] Yeah.

[00:40:14] Yeah.

[00:40:15] So in the book, I bring this woman out.

[00:40:17] She, my flavor of Christianity believed in miracles and she lost a leg.

[00:40:23] She just stepped off the curb and a bus hit her.

[00:40:25] Like there's no bad choice she made and her life is forever different.

[00:40:29] Her family doesn't come around because they can't take care of her.

[00:40:32] So they gave her to these nuns and Mother Teresa home for the sick and

[00:40:35] dying.

[00:40:36] She's around the honestly some people who are overdosed on narcotics or

[00:40:41] mental drugs.

[00:40:42] I'm totally spacing on the word right now.

[00:40:44] Yeah, I would hang out with her every day.

[00:40:47] And to be honest, as I reflect back on it, I don't know how much of it was

[00:40:50] love.

[00:40:50] And the other part of it was like unable to cope with someone's pain

[00:40:54] because I wasn't taught how to do that inside of evangelicalism.

[00:40:57] And so I'm not sure which one it was.

[00:41:00] And I would lean towards the ladder and I took her outside, prayed for

[00:41:04] her and asked her to stand up and she started weeping in my arms asking

[00:41:08] why God won't heal her.

[00:41:09] And I didn't have an answer.

[00:41:12] And so I came back home and I already started to have questions.

[00:41:16] Like, so some of the big things is I saw a lot of corruption in leadership

[00:41:19] throughout the years.

[00:41:19] That was probably the very first thing when you see like a mega church

[00:41:22] pastor have a fall like mine did.

[00:41:25] It's kind of a critical moment.

[00:41:27] The hypocrisy within Christians was another one.

[00:41:30] Me seeing how I was manipulated over the years to give money and time to

[00:41:33] other people's egos was another one.

[00:41:35] Then this pain.

[00:41:37] And then then it was LGBTQ.

[00:41:40] And then it was looking at the Bible because of being LGBTQ and starting to

[00:41:44] see errors in it, and then it turned into looking at the history of the

[00:41:49] church and seeing that it's been problematic.

[00:41:51] And so I think that was the, that's kind of the order of operations for me.

[00:41:55] I know every person journey is different, but like that's, those are

[00:41:59] like the different themes for me and my journey.

[00:42:01] Yeah.

[00:42:02] Yeah.

[00:42:02] I love in the book when you're talking about, you're kind of taking

[00:42:05] apart like LGBTQ stuff, but then it's like, okay, but then what else?

[00:42:10] And you look at women in the church and they're like, okay, but like that

[00:42:13] rule we don't follow or we do depending on what church and what rule it is.

[00:42:18] And all these rules that it's like, okay, well this one, we do

[00:42:20] follow and this one we don't follow.

[00:42:22] And this one is literal and this one is metaphorical and like,

[00:42:24] oh, okay, like cool, cool, cool.

[00:42:25] Like that's great.

[00:42:26] Got it.

[00:42:27] I think for beta might say cool, cool, cool.

[00:42:28] Yeah, you do.

[00:42:30] And it's so satisfying.

[00:42:31] Oh, okay.

[00:42:32] Cool.

[00:42:32] Cool.

[00:42:32] Cool.

[00:42:32] Cool.

[00:42:32] Cool.

[00:42:33] Oh, and did you know about this?

[00:42:34] Okay.

[00:42:35] Cool.

[00:42:35] Cool.

[00:42:35] Cool.

[00:42:35] If people can't tell, I really like the audio book.

[00:42:43] But yeah, it's like, I remember like sitting there in my Christian college.

[00:42:46] I went to a Christian college and I think it was so good for me at the

[00:42:49] time because it showed me these different versions of Christianity and

[00:42:54] and different ways that we can interpret things, which again, just

[00:42:57] takes away this like there's one right way.

[00:43:00] Yeah.

[00:43:00] And that was the first time that I realized that there could be more than

[00:43:03] one right way.

[00:43:04] And it was sort of like, so ultimately we're choosing which rules we

[00:43:09] follow and which ones we don't.

[00:43:11] Are we a Christian who's accepting of gay people or not accepting

[00:43:15] of women or not?

[00:43:16] Like what rules do we want to follow?

[00:43:19] Which ones do we say are metaphorical in the Bible?

[00:43:22] And which ones are literal?

[00:43:23] And like gouging out your eyeball if it causes you to sin, you know?

[00:43:27] Right.

[00:43:27] Like nobody's doing that.

[00:43:28] And there are plenty of pastors who have sinned with their eyeballs,

[00:43:32] you know?

[00:43:34] And I don't see any of them who have got them out.

[00:43:36] And yet you're supposed to live a life of celibacy, maybe pray the gay way.

[00:43:41] Like, I don't know.

[00:43:42] I don't know what their answer was.

[00:43:45] Well, and again, that one also depends on the, right.

[00:43:48] On the church.

[00:43:48] Cause some people are like, you're gay.

[00:43:49] God made you gay, but you're not supposed to act on it.

[00:43:51] Like that's side B.

[00:43:52] And I have some friends that are in that space and love and support them

[00:43:55] because I get shit from both sides.

[00:43:56] Other people like, you need to try to be straight.

[00:43:58] And I'm just like, there's literally no science that supports this.

[00:44:02] And then the whole thing of science in general.

[00:44:03] But yeah, that even varies church by church.

[00:44:08] Can you talk about this experience when you go to the farm and you're

[00:44:12] meeting a lesbian woman?

[00:44:15] Yeah, Leah and Ze.

[00:44:16] Who's married to a man.

[00:44:17] And again, like that's a choice that she gets to make.

[00:44:21] And there's not like right or wrong.

[00:44:23] Like this is her life and her choice.

[00:44:25] Anyway, can you talk about your kind of like realizations

[00:44:28] in your time there with them?

[00:44:30] Yeah.

[00:44:31] Yeah.

[00:44:31] And first off, I would like to say I have friends in, we call them

[00:44:34] mixed orientation marriages and love them.

[00:44:37] Um, she actually since publishing it, so I couldn't go back and change it,

[00:44:41] but she has recently moved to color springs, my hometown and is dating

[00:44:46] a woman and is divorced from her husband.

[00:44:48] So like that's another choice she made.

[00:44:50] And she's very happy with it and excited for it.

[00:44:53] So yeah, my time there was very special.

[00:44:56] I would just blogging about my journey pretty openly, not knowing

[00:44:59] where I would arrive for years.

[00:45:01] And I said some problematic stuff, especially early on.

[00:45:04] I was like, this is why I'm gay.

[00:45:06] This is how we fix it.

[00:45:07] Like as a 24 year old having the answers apparently, but as

[00:45:11] every good 24 year old does.

[00:45:13] And I started writing and she somehow found it through a friend of hers

[00:45:17] who worked with my mom back.

[00:45:19] It was just so weird that how she ended up writing it.

[00:45:21] And she wrote to me and was like, Hey, I resonate with your story.

[00:45:26] I've been reading everything for like at least a year or two.

[00:45:29] If you ever need a space to get away from Colorado Springs, my husband

[00:45:32] and I's farm is open to you.

[00:45:34] And so a stranger emailed me and I said yes, and went out there again,

[00:45:38] making probably some reckless choices because Jesus has me.

[00:45:43] You've got a literal safety net there named Jesus.

[00:45:47] Jesus.

[00:45:48] Thank you, Jesus.

[00:45:49] So, um, and at that point I wasn't terribly sure, but whatever.

[00:45:52] So I went and she's still one of my best friends.

[00:45:56] I love her so much and we shared experiences.

[00:46:00] And I felt like I was actually known by someone because she was

[00:46:04] saying the same shit as me.

[00:46:05] And I'm like, I thought only I thought that way.

[00:46:07] What the heck?

[00:46:09] And I'm sure it's probably how a lot of people felt when they openly

[00:46:11] talk with their first queer person, if there else would be TQ.

[00:46:14] And it was just so good.

[00:46:15] Cause we talked so open and I asked way too intrusive of questions

[00:46:19] and they were just so gracious.

[00:46:22] And that was very much so bullet.

[00:46:24] There's a number of different boiling points, but me dating my first

[00:46:27] boyfriend was a critical moment for me.

[00:46:29] And I kind of compare him to ammonia in, um, chemical reactions

[00:46:35] because I'm never the same.

[00:46:36] He's fine.

[00:46:37] He's moving on.

[00:46:37] He's still the same person, but like I was forever transformed from

[00:46:41] dating him because I was terrified.

[00:46:45] To date him because of believing it was not the wrong thing.

[00:46:49] It was the worst thing based off of my flavor of Christianity to

[00:46:53] date this man, which really does something to a fucking psyche.

[00:46:55] Cause I had hooked up at that point with people and I know other

[00:46:58] people that have hooked up and they won't come out because a hookup

[00:47:03] is just a one time mistake, but dating someone is committing to your sin.

[00:47:09] And it really does a fucking number on your brain on healthy

[00:47:12] relationships as a queer person.

[00:47:15] And it's not an uncommon story.

[00:47:16] Anyway, so I'm dating him and the question I was coming to terms

[00:47:19] with was why is this bad?

[00:47:22] And I couldn't answer that.

[00:47:23] And I don't think I would have answered that question if it wasn't for getting

[00:47:29] space and going to liens a's and experiencing a safe place because I

[00:47:35] didn't have that safe place in color Springs, I had pastors reacting a

[00:47:38] certain way, I had parents reacting a certain way, had friends reacting a

[00:47:42] certain way.

[00:47:43] Most of them were cutting me off or going quiet.

[00:47:46] And I had these people that made a different choice than me and could hold

[00:47:52] me and say, we don't have the right answer.

[00:47:54] What's your answer?

[00:47:56] And that space empowered me to make a choice that was very scary and did

[00:48:01] have a lot of consequences.

[00:48:02] My life was forever changed as a result of that because of it shook me

[00:48:06] up in a way where I'm like, there was really no going back.

[00:48:09] I had let my, I had really come to terms with my sexuality as a result

[00:48:14] of liens a and the safe space that they created that allowed me to make

[00:48:19] a choice that was terrifying.

[00:48:21] Yeah.

[00:48:22] Do you want to read a little clip from your book?

[00:48:24] Sure.

[00:48:24] Yeah.

[00:48:24] Did you want to, do you want me to, which one do you want to do?

[00:48:26] Can you read it because your, your reading is so beautiful and then

[00:48:30] everybody will get a flavor for the audio book and we'll download it

[00:48:32] immediately.

[00:48:33] Great.

[00:48:36] 109, right?

[00:48:37] Or 110.

[00:48:37] Yeah.

[00:48:38] 109 into 110.

[00:48:40] So this is at the farm for those that are joining.

[00:48:43] The title is called, I mean the chapter title is called the farm.

[00:48:47] Open your books to page 109.

[00:48:49] Oh my God.

[00:48:49] Wow.

[00:48:50] We really are educators.

[00:48:51] Okay.

[00:48:52] And as I'm starting to like be in a space coming to terms with the choice

[00:48:56] I want to make and starting to tell people, people started reacting to me

[00:49:01] certain ways.

[00:49:02] Um, my family reacts to me a certain way.

[00:49:04] Friends react to me a certain way.

[00:49:06] Pastors react to me a certain way.

[00:49:07] And in short, they either say I'm evil, bad, wrong, cut me off,

[00:49:11] et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:49:12] And so standing in their field, I'm like experiencing the

[00:49:15] consequences of my choice.

[00:49:17] Kind of going back to agency.

[00:49:18] I don't believe that what I, the choice I made was a bad choice.

[00:49:22] However, I know Christians who will point to this moment and a lot of

[00:49:25] queer people's life and say, this is why it's bad.

[00:49:27] Look at all the shit that happened to them.

[00:49:29] And it's like the shit happened to them because of what

[00:49:31] everyone believed around them.

[00:49:33] There's a really powerful song called there's something wrong with the

[00:49:35] village that I think really speaks to this.

[00:49:38] All right.

[00:49:39] Here we go.

[00:49:39] Armed with verses, parents, pastors and lay people believe it's their

[00:49:44] job to teach you a lesson in love.

[00:49:47] And in love I've been called unnatural, demon possessed,

[00:49:52] immoral, wrong, deceived.

[00:49:56] In love I've been argued with, silenced and mocked, not from atheists,

[00:50:04] but from those who love the sinner, but hate the sin.

[00:50:08] They are the ones who caused me the most pain.

[00:50:11] The ones who apparently serve a God whose name is love.

[00:50:15] And they took everything from me after I gave them the first 25 years of my life.

[00:50:21] That's the thanks.

[00:50:23] That's the repayment.

[00:50:25] And we wonder why queer people never want to step foot in a church ever again.

[00:50:31] When writing that last line, I thought of I think it's the first season or

[00:50:35] second season of Queer Eye.

[00:50:36] And Bobby told the producers that his one rule was that he would not step foot

[00:50:43] in a church and this was a boy that was raised in Christianity, was there

[00:50:49] every Sunday, I think he would say that he was there like four days a week

[00:50:52] at his local small town church.

[00:50:55] And when he decided to come out, there were big consequences.

[00:50:59] Doesn't mean the choice was wrong, but the community around him decided

[00:51:04] that he was wrong and there are big consequences to the choice that he made.

[00:51:08] And the pain that he experienced was so much so that he didn't want to step

[00:51:11] foot back into this church that had nothing to do with him and his experience.

[00:51:15] But it was such a source of pain.

[00:51:17] He couldn't cross the threshold.

[00:51:19] And I don't blame him.

[00:51:21] And I don't blame a lot of other queer people who not only refuse to

[00:51:24] step in a church, but refuse to engage with Christians because for a lot of them,

[00:51:29] they've been a critical source of pain for them.

[00:51:32] Yeah.

[00:51:33] And I wish that I don't think a lot of Christians are listening to my podcast,

[00:51:38] but I wish that the Christians that I grew up with could hear that paragraph

[00:51:46] from your book and to hear that like, you are the ones that are causing pain.

[00:51:52] This is not like the angry atheists or people who are tearing these people

[00:51:57] away from safety and like pulling them into this dangerous worldly place.

[00:52:04] The reason that LGBTQ people are in pain is because of the pain that

[00:52:08] you have put them through.

[00:52:11] And yeah, and that's why we don't want to go back to church.

[00:52:14] You know, that's why, that's why we don't want to step up in there again.

[00:52:18] It makes me think of a person who is lame, let's say from the hips down.

[00:52:27] They're now committed to a wheelchair for the rest of their life.

[00:52:30] We could look at that person and their inaccessibility to get into places.

[00:52:36] Luckily, that's not the case these days in the United States because it used

[00:52:41] to be extremely difficult.

[00:52:43] And then when the ADA got passed as a result of individuals with

[00:52:47] disability fighting for themselves, that's a whole nother tangent.

[00:52:50] And it's a really beautiful story.

[00:52:51] Go check out Crip Camp.

[00:52:52] It changed my life.

[00:52:54] But we could look at people like that and we can say, see, there's

[00:52:57] something wrong with you.

[00:52:59] Or we could say, there's something wrong with the structure in the

[00:53:03] world that we've built.

[00:53:04] Where are the ramps?

[00:53:05] Where are the automatic doors for those that are hearing impaired or deaf?

[00:53:09] Where's the interpreter?

[00:53:11] Where's the accessibility?

[00:53:12] Instead of saying what's wrong with you, get your shit together,

[00:53:16] change, fit into our system.

[00:53:20] What can we do to make sure the system can bring in all people and make

[00:53:25] sure that they feel loved and cared for?

[00:53:27] Yeah.

[00:53:27] Yeah.

[00:53:29] Could you offer some encouragement maybe to a queer person who's still

[00:53:36] in the church and not feeling like it's safe, but not sure how to

[00:53:40] accept this as a good and beautiful part of themselves, maybe to the

[00:53:45] queer person who's out of church and doesn't really know how to find

[00:53:49] themselves now, maybe just could you offer some encouragement to the

[00:53:52] queer person through deconstruction?

[00:53:56] Yeah.

[00:53:58] First off, I know it feels maybe trite because I do think that there are

[00:54:02] changes happening, especially with millennials and down on how we relate

[00:54:07] to queer people and it makes me very happy for the future, but if

[00:54:10] you've not heard it before, there is nothing wrong with you.

[00:54:17] And you are not only not bad, but you offer something incredibly

[00:54:25] beautiful to the world.

[00:54:27] It's something that I have continued to bump into and continue to work

[00:54:33] through my sexuality is a gift and I've experienced it as a result of

[00:54:39] my sexuality.

[00:54:40] I've thought differently and I have been able to engage with people

[00:54:44] differently.

[00:54:44] If it wasn't for my sexuality, I don't know if I would have been paying

[00:54:48] attention like I should have during BLM.

[00:54:51] I don't know if I would have been paying attention like I should have

[00:54:54] when women were crying out that they want better lives.

[00:54:58] I don't know if I would be listening to my trans siblings.

[00:55:00] I don't know if I would be listening to those in Palestine.

[00:55:05] If it wasn't for my queerness, my queerness has empowered me to connect

[00:55:09] with people in a way that I never could have if I was straight.

[00:55:13] And there are gifts inside of your sexuality and I'm so sorry that

[00:55:18] they've been smothered.

[00:55:20] I'm so sorry that they've been boxed in.

[00:55:22] I would say that first and foremost, that regardless of whatever

[00:55:26] choice you make, because there are choices with consequences,

[00:55:28] unfortunately, you are so loved and so beautiful and you're a gift.

[00:55:34] And number two, as someone that has come out, there have been

[00:55:38] consequences that are hard, but I'm so grateful that I did it.

[00:55:42] And I would never go back.

[00:55:44] And I would suggest that if you want to stay in a Christian space,

[00:55:49] find an affirming church because it was so healing and you're worth

[00:55:53] that, you're worth making that choice.

[00:55:55] You don't have to be a martyr to try to save your church.

[00:55:58] You can choose a church that is going to recognize you and heal you

[00:56:02] because the point of church is to be in a family.

[00:56:05] And so find an affirming church that is going to see all of you and

[00:56:09] love every single cell of who you are, because that's what church

[00:56:15] is supposed to be.

[00:56:16] And if you don't have that, you're worth it.

[00:56:18] And I would encourage you to make that choice for yourself.

[00:56:20] It's not an easy one, but I would encourage you to make that

[00:56:22] choice for yourself because you're worth it.

[00:56:24] I love that.

[00:56:25] Thank you.

[00:56:25] To you and every other queer person out there, you are good,

[00:56:29] you are loved and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:56:33] Yes.

[00:56:34] Thank you for being here.

[00:56:35] Yeah.

[00:56:35] Thanks for having me, Maggie.

[00:56:36] If listeners want to connect with you and find out more about what

[00:56:40] you do and obviously download your audio book immediately, where can

[00:56:43] they connect with you?

[00:56:46] You can find everything about me like it has links to social media

[00:56:49] and all that stuff at BrandonFlannery.com.

[00:56:52] Flannery has one end.

[00:56:53] One of my ancestors got drunk one day and didn't add the second

[00:56:57] one is my story that I tell myself.

[00:56:59] As well as the O, they dropped the O and the N.

[00:57:02] So Brandon, F L A N E R Y.com.

[00:57:06] And Brandon spelled the quote unquote normal question.

[00:57:10] There's not normal B R A N D O N.

[00:57:12] And then my social media handles are for the most part on every

[00:57:15] social media flann brand.

[00:57:17] Just think of like an old person's cereal and you

[00:57:19] should be able to find it.

[00:57:21] Amazing.

[00:57:22] Thank you so much Brandon.

[00:57:23] And I will link all of those in the show notes so listeners can

[00:57:26] find you and download your audio book immediately.

[00:57:28] So there we go.

[00:57:29] Thank you.

[00:57:30] This is so great.

[00:57:31] Such a lovely conversation.

[00:57:32] Yeah.

[00:57:33] Thank you.

[00:57:33] Thank you.

[00:57:36] Thanks for listening to another episode of Hello Deconstructionists.

[00:57:39] If you enjoyed this episode or any others, please like, follow, or

[00:57:43] subscribe to the podcast and if you feel like it, leave us a review

[00:57:46] so other people know what this show is all about.

[00:57:49] If you have any questions, comments, or parts of your own experience

[00:57:52] you'd like to share on the podcast, you can email me at hello.decons

[00:57:56] at gmail.com.

[00:57:57] And as always, you can find me over on Instagram at hello

[00:58:00] underscore deconstructionists where together we are building

[00:58:03] community post evangelicalism.

[00:58:06] Huge thank you to Amy Azera for writing the theme song for this

[00:58:09] podcast and when the sweet little bop inevitably gets stuck in your

[00:58:12] head, I hope it reminds you of this wonderful community that's

[00:58:15] here with you.

[00:58:17] Thanks to all our guests for sharing these parts of their stories

[00:58:19] with us and of course to you for listening.

[00:58:22] See you next time.