The Horny Chapel Episode 5- Sexual Awakening

Priska and Scott get spicy...well, as spicy as possible within the confines of purity culture...as they talk about their sexual awakenings. Even inside purity culture, curiosity and desire got stimulated, giving them a glimpse into sexual possibilities. From pop culture, movies, music, to their friends, sex and sexuality was on their minds, whether they wanted it to be or not. And as embarrassing or cringey as some of the stories are, Priska and Scott have learned to be gentle with their former selves as they navigated their way out. Hell, they're still navigating.

The Horny Chapel is part of the ⁠⁠⁠⁠Dauntless Media Collective.⁠⁠⁠⁠

Send us a message at ⁠⁠⁠⁠hornychapel@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠⁠

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And join our ⁠⁠⁠⁠Discord Server⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more discussion and fun.

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:08] We live in an era of unprecedented access to information, news and media.

[00:00:14] But what happens when all that information leads you to suddenly realize you spent the majority of your childhood in a cult?

[00:00:23] Well, we can tell you. Join me, Jessica Goforth, and Kathleen Reynolds as we take you into the world of cult recovery.

[00:00:30] After all the emotional, psychological, financial and sexual abuse we experienced as part of Bill Gothard's Advanced Training Institute.

[00:00:38] On our podcast called Leaving the Village, we talk candidly about our journey out and interview other survivors whose experiences boggle your mind as scandals continue to rock the twisted world of IBLP.

[00:00:52] Subscribe to Leaving the Village today so you don't miss a single episode.

[00:01:01] I'm Priska and welcome to The Horny Chapel.

[00:01:05] A limited series podcast where Scott Okamoto and I dive headfirst into the wild, wild world of evangelical purity culture.

[00:01:13] In each episode, we discuss purity culture in detail, highlighting both its absurdity and the damage caused by an abstinence-only rhetoric.

[00:01:21] We explore how our AAPI cultural influences, combined with the misogynistic sexual miseducation from the church, led to a unique brand of repression.

[00:01:30] But don't fret, dear listener.

[00:01:32] We also share how we found our way to a sex-positive mindset after breaking free.

[00:01:38] Welcome in, our beautiful brothers and sisters.

[00:01:42] Welcome to The Horny Chapel.

[00:01:44] Welcome to The Horny Chapel.

[00:01:44] You just missed the baptismal meeting, but there will be a luncheon provided after service.

[00:01:50] And a massage.

[00:01:52] And a massage.

[00:01:52] It's The Horny Chapel, after all.

[00:01:54] You gotta go around back for that.

[00:01:56] Yeah.

[00:01:58] It depends on how much you put in the offering plate.

[00:02:00] That's true.

[00:02:01] The more you put in, the more you put out.

[00:02:04] The more we put out.

[00:02:05] The more we put out, correct.

[00:02:07] Yeah, we're just gonna roll with the horniness because today, we on The Horny Chapel are gonna talk about our sexual awakening.

[00:02:16] Bur-bur-bur-bur-bur!

[00:02:18] And issues therein.

[00:02:20] Yeah.

[00:02:21] Issues around it.

[00:02:22] The shame we might have felt.

[00:02:24] The shame.

[00:02:25] Yeah.

[00:02:25] The victories.

[00:02:27] The...

[00:02:27] Yeah.

[00:02:28] Do we have wins?

[00:02:29] Do we have Ws to report?

[00:02:31] Or are they all cautionary tales?

[00:02:33] Uh, well, I think that we had secrets.

[00:02:37] I think that's a fair thing to say.

[00:02:39] Oh, right.

[00:02:40] Right?

[00:02:41] Did you feel like you had to keep secrets?

[00:02:44] Everything was secret.

[00:02:45] Everything was secret.

[00:02:46] Yeah.

[00:02:48] Because, uh...

[00:02:49] Yeah.

[00:02:50] Because, well, I didn't talk about it with my friends, obviously.

[00:02:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:02:54] Definitely wasn't gonna talk about it with my parents.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:58] But at some point, right, you're a kid.

[00:03:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:02] And then you see something on TV or a show.

[00:03:07] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:07] Or...

[00:03:08] Or in a theater.

[00:03:09] In a theater.

[00:03:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:11] An advertisement.

[00:03:13] Yeah.

[00:03:14] A really good-looking teddy bear.

[00:03:17] Okay.

[00:03:18] Yeah.

[00:03:18] Teddy bear.

[00:03:18] You know, their eyebrows were just right.

[00:03:21] Yeah.

[00:03:21] A Sears catalog with underwear models.

[00:03:24] Yeah.

[00:03:25] Something.

[00:03:26] And then all of a sudden you go, uh, I feel weird.

[00:03:28] I feel funny.

[00:03:29] Something shifted.

[00:03:31] Yeah.

[00:03:31] Literally.

[00:03:32] For you.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:34] So...

[00:03:35] I mean, that's gotta be a pretty intense experience to just, like, have your pants go really tight.

[00:03:43] Yeah.

[00:03:44] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:44] Yeah.

[00:03:46] I think every kid wakes up with a boner.

[00:03:50] Every boy wakes up with a boner.

[00:03:51] Yeah.

[00:03:52] And wonders what's happening.

[00:03:54] Well, did you freak out when you had your first one?

[00:03:58] No.

[00:03:59] I don't think...

[00:03:59] I don't remember freaking out.

[00:04:00] Okay.

[00:04:01] I just remember being, huh.

[00:04:03] So this is happening.

[00:04:04] So you knew that it was a possibility?

[00:04:07] I don't remember what I knew or didn't know, honestly.

[00:04:11] So long ago.

[00:04:11] Had you seen other boys have boners?

[00:04:13] No.

[00:04:14] Mm.

[00:04:14] I don't think so.

[00:04:15] It was just something...

[00:04:18] Yeah.

[00:04:18] It was...

[00:04:19] It was something like eventually...

[00:04:20] You know, eventually you realize something feels good.

[00:04:22] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:23] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:23] Um...

[00:04:24] And your brain is moving to different places that you...

[00:04:28] Mm-hmm.

[00:04:28] ...had never seen or heard before.

[00:04:31] Yeah.

[00:04:32] Um...

[00:04:32] Did you feel like you had invented masturbation?

[00:04:36] Probably.

[00:04:37] Again, we're talking about a long time ago for me.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:39] But something like that.

[00:04:41] Yeah.

[00:04:41] Like, oh shit, this is...

[00:04:43] This is something.

[00:04:45] This is amazing.

[00:04:46] I wonder if anyone else is doing this.

[00:04:49] Right.

[00:04:49] Yeah.

[00:04:50] Yeah.

[00:04:50] What about you?

[00:04:52] Um...

[00:04:52] Yeah.

[00:04:53] You know, I think it is different...

[00:04:58] Being a woman.

[00:04:59] Yeah.

[00:04:59] Or a girl.

[00:05:01] Um...

[00:05:02] I'm trying to think.

[00:05:05] Yeah, because there's no physical kind of, you know, engorgement.

[00:05:08] Yeah.

[00:05:09] That's easily visible, I guess.

[00:05:11] You know, there is engorgement, but not...

[00:05:13] Yeah, but not...

[00:05:14] External.

[00:05:14] Not to the degree.

[00:05:16] Not to the degree.

[00:05:16] Of a boner.

[00:05:17] Although.

[00:05:18] Yeah.

[00:05:19] Um...

[00:05:19] But I think that I...

[00:05:22] It was almost like an itch that you had to scratch.

[00:05:25] Yeah.

[00:05:26] I didn't even associate it necessarily with anything sexual.

[00:05:31] Right.

[00:05:31] I think...

[00:05:31] Yeah, it was maybe like 12, 13-ish.

[00:05:35] Not the sexual...

[00:05:37] Like, I feel like the sexual awakening was kind of separate from...

[00:05:40] Let's say the first time you start to rub one out and it feels good.

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:45] You know?

[00:05:47] Because I feel like they existed slight...

[00:05:49] Like, I didn't pair the two yet.

[00:05:51] It was like...

[00:05:51] Yeah.

[00:05:52] Uh...

[00:05:52] Unpaired Bluetooth, you know?

[00:05:55] Uh...

[00:05:55] And yeah, it just felt like, yeah, an itch you had to scratch and then it felt really good.

[00:06:00] And then...

[00:06:01] Yeah, afterwards...

[00:06:03] I didn't...

[00:06:03] I don't even think that that shame set in yet because I don't think I explicitly knew what I was doing.

[00:06:10] No.

[00:06:10] Yeah.

[00:06:11] Yeah.

[00:06:12] Yeah, same.

[00:06:13] Um...

[00:06:14] We should tell our listeners we're sitting here under red lights...

[00:06:16] We are.

[00:06:17] ...to try to block out the world to talk about this personal stuff.

[00:06:22] Yeah.

[00:06:23] Is it helping?

[00:06:23] Is it...

[00:06:24] I feel...

[00:06:25] I feel very held by these red lights.

[00:06:28] Yeah.

[00:06:29] It's a good thing it's not hot anymore.

[00:06:31] It would feel like we're one of those heat lamps.

[00:06:33] Right.

[00:06:34] Like French fries.

[00:06:36] Oh, right, right.

[00:06:37] Or red light therapy.

[00:06:39] Oh, yeah.

[00:06:40] Which I think is supposed to be, you know...

[00:06:41] Supposed to be good, right?

[00:06:42] Good, yeah.

[00:06:43] Restorative.

[00:06:44] Hmm.

[00:06:44] I feel like I'm at a Korean spa.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:47] Didn't...

[00:06:47] Was it Tucker Carlson that had the ad of, like, shining red light on your balls or something to...

[00:06:51] Sure.

[00:06:52] ...to, um...

[00:06:54] That sounds very...

[00:06:54] We're jumping ahead.

[00:06:55] Tucker Carlson.

[00:06:56] Yeah.

[00:06:57] Um...

[00:06:57] Ball lighting is farther down the road.

[00:07:00] Oh, okay.

[00:07:01] Okay.

[00:07:01] I'm sorry.

[00:07:01] I jumped ahead.

[00:07:02] I brought it up.

[00:07:03] Well, Scott, thank you for apologizing.

[00:07:05] I accept your apology.

[00:07:07] Yeah, sorry.

[00:07:08] But we jumped into it real quick.

[00:07:09] We did.

[00:07:10] Yeah.

[00:07:11] Um...

[00:07:11] It's the red light.

[00:07:12] It just made us fall right into...

[00:07:14] Exactly.

[00:07:15] It's like if we're not gonna talk about the first time we masturbated, why are we doing this

[00:07:19] podcast?

[00:07:20] Yeah.

[00:07:20] Um...

[00:07:20] But I think aside from, like we said, it's kind of split in your brain when you're that

[00:07:25] young.

[00:07:25] You have these sexual awakening moments from things that you've seen on television and then

[00:07:30] you have these very private moments...

[00:07:32] Yeah.

[00:07:33] ...um...

[00:07:33] ...that, you know, are not even super sexualized yet.

[00:07:36] They're just kind of almost getting out an instinctual urge.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:40] I think that's right.

[00:07:41] Yeah.

[00:07:42] Yeah.

[00:07:42] And I'm sure some people that maybe were exposed to things younger, um, knew to pair

[00:07:47] them.

[00:07:48] Yeah.

[00:07:48] But I think if you were sheltered the way I was, um, it was very separate.

[00:07:53] But what was your first kind of, let's say, media-fueled crush?

[00:07:58] Oh, yeah.

[00:07:59] And I'll be able to read some of these because I asked my Facebook group...

[00:08:02] Oh, cool.

[00:08:02] ...for chapel probation the same question.

[00:08:05] Okay.

[00:08:06] ...you know, what's an image or a movie or a book or a song that was part of your sexual

[00:08:11] awakening?

[00:08:12] Heck, yeah.

[00:08:13] And for me, it was a James Bond movie and I looked it up.

[00:08:16] I can't remember if it was The Spy Who Loved Me or...

[00:08:19] It's the one where they start in this...

[00:08:20] ...with a ski scene.

[00:08:22] Oh.

[00:08:23] But anyway, but the movie opens with him making love to a beautiful woman on, like, a

[00:08:28] bare skin rug in front of a roaring fire.

[00:08:32] Yeah.

[00:08:33] Sounds like the 70s.

[00:08:35] She's a spy who wants to kill him, but, you know, he's James Bond.

[00:08:38] Yeah.

[00:08:39] So you gotta knock it out first.

[00:08:41] Right.

[00:08:41] And I, you know, I think I was eight, nine or ten and, um, there wasn't a...

[00:08:48] It was a PG movie, so there's nothing explicit.

[00:08:51] But it was just seeing a woman be so, like, excited to be there.

[00:08:57] Yeah.

[00:08:58] Yeah.

[00:08:58] Uh, in his presence.

[00:09:00] It was just like, oh.

[00:09:03] I wanna do that.

[00:09:04] Yeah, there's like an energy there that was new to me, you know, cause...

[00:09:08] Huh.

[00:09:08] ...when you're...

[00:09:09] Wait, before your sexual awakening, you...

[00:09:12] Maybe you learn where babies come from.

[00:09:15] Sure.

[00:09:16] Like, biologically.

[00:09:18] But seeing, like, passion portrayed...

[00:09:20] ...on a...

[00:09:21] ...on a James Bond movie, of all things.

[00:09:23] But, like, I just remember this image of him on top of this woman.

[00:09:27] Yeah.

[00:09:27] They're both clearly naked, but they don't show anything.

[00:09:29] Right.

[00:09:30] Um...

[00:09:31] But a girl horned up for a guy like that.

[00:09:33] Yeah.

[00:09:33] She was...

[00:09:34] She was experiencing something.

[00:09:36] Yeah.

[00:09:37] That looked good.

[00:09:39] Yeah, right.

[00:09:40] And you were like, I wanna do that to women?

[00:09:43] Yeah, probably.

[00:09:45] Mm.

[00:09:45] I wanna do that to her?

[00:09:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:48] Yeah.

[00:09:48] And have her...

[00:09:51] ...respond that way to me.

[00:09:53] To me.

[00:09:53] Uh-huh, uh-huh.

[00:09:54] If I'm remembering correctly.

[00:09:56] But I just...

[00:09:57] I just...

[00:09:57] The image was burned in my head, and it's kind of a sentimental one.

[00:10:00] Right.

[00:10:01] Oh, that's sweet.

[00:10:02] But, you know, there's others.

[00:10:04] Yeah, well, what about you while I look up some of these?

[00:10:06] Ooh.

[00:10:07] That I got.

[00:10:07] Let me see.

[00:10:08] What were...

[00:10:09] I had...

[00:10:11] I feel like I had a few, but...

[00:10:13] I think one of the big ones was definitely Lord of the Rings.

[00:10:18] Oh.

[00:10:19] Yeah, which I think is pretty common for a middling millennial like myself.

[00:10:24] Which part?

[00:10:25] So, I mean, all of it.

[00:10:29] Oh, okay.

[00:10:29] No, but I think that the first movie, Fellowship of the Rings, I came home and I felt achy all

[00:10:36] over because it was just so beautiful that I didn't know how to process it.

[00:10:41] Like, Legolas was so beautiful that my brain like short-circuited a little bit.

[00:10:47] Wow.

[00:10:47] And...

[00:10:47] Just the setting?

[00:10:49] Just Legolas.

[00:10:50] Like, just his entire being.

[00:10:52] He was so pretty that I didn't want to look at him.

[00:10:56] It was so pretty, it hurt.

[00:10:58] And then Frodo, like Elijah Wood, um...

[00:11:02] Oh, yeah.

[00:11:03] That was more like an attainable, like, I want that to be my boyfriend.

[00:11:08] Like a crush.

[00:11:10] Crush.

[00:11:10] Yeah, like an attainable crush.

[00:11:12] Traditional crush.

[00:11:14] Yeah.

[00:11:15] Legolas was like too pretty.

[00:11:16] Like, it was just too much, you know?

[00:11:18] It was...

[00:11:19] I went home and like, I think, just like laid in bed.

[00:11:22] Like, it hurt.

[00:11:24] Almost like you had the flu.

[00:11:26] Yeah.

[00:11:26] You know?

[00:11:26] Um, it was so intense, but it wasn't...

[00:11:29] I didn't even...

[00:11:30] It wasn't like it got my lady parts going, per se.

[00:11:33] Oh, okay.

[00:11:34] It was just like this intense feeling.

[00:11:36] In your brain or your whole body?

[00:11:39] Like body.

[00:11:39] Like...

[00:11:39] Yeah, okay.

[00:11:40] I ached.

[00:11:41] I hurt.

[00:11:42] It hurt because it was too pretty.

[00:11:45] Yeah.

[00:11:45] Oh.

[00:11:46] I didn't know how to process it.

[00:11:47] Yeah, yeah.

[00:11:47] That's powerful.

[00:11:48] It was very powerful.

[00:11:49] I remember we, um, we rented the VHS and my dad copied it and I would watch that VHS

[00:11:58] on repeat all summer.

[00:12:01] And you were getting a different experience than everyone else watching the movie.

[00:12:06] No, no, no.

[00:12:07] I was very invested in the ring.

[00:12:09] No, but yeah.

[00:12:10] Well, in addition to...

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:13] No, it was...

[00:12:14] The regular cinematic experience that people have.

[00:12:17] It was kind of one of those, like, it hurt so good, you know?

[00:12:20] Yeah.

[00:12:20] Like, he was so beautiful.

[00:12:21] I didn't want to look at it, but I couldn't look away.

[00:12:24] Yeah.

[00:12:24] It was pretty intense.

[00:12:26] And then, you know, being the oldest of three girls, your siblings are younger than you,

[00:12:31] sat next to you watching the same things, having very different reactions.

[00:12:36] Huh.

[00:12:36] And you're having to just kind of, um, hold it together, you know?

[00:12:40] Yeah.

[00:12:41] Aw.

[00:12:42] Yeah.

[00:12:43] Yeah.

[00:12:44] But I think, I guess my question for you, because this is what's coming to mind, is

[00:12:48] did you feel shame for feeling that about James Bond in the moment?

[00:12:52] Yeah, no, not at all.

[00:12:53] I didn't even know to feel shame, because I don't think they hit you with purity culture

[00:12:56] until a little later.

[00:12:58] Yeah.

[00:12:59] So, like...

[00:13:01] And I think I said in an earlier episode, my dad had the talk.

[00:13:05] Yeah.

[00:13:06] Basically giving the green light to masturbation.

[00:13:09] Right.

[00:13:09] I like these, we're talking about these gradations of sexual awakening, because I think this is

[00:13:14] when you're so young that society doesn't really view you as sexually viable yet.

[00:13:19] And you are not, you know, really, like, you're having these intense feelings and emotions,

[00:13:23] but you're not necessarily connecting that with a physiological response.

[00:13:30] Right.

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:31] It's not like we're little kids now looking for sexual partners.

[00:13:34] No, no.

[00:13:34] What was your, you know, moment of feeling this kind of sexual awakening, but then also

[00:13:43] having that followed with shame?

[00:13:46] Yeah, I don't...

[00:13:47] I've been lucky in that...

[00:13:49] There have been times where I thought I should feel shame, but I've always sort of, like, trusted

[00:13:57] my instincts and...

[00:14:00] And now, that said, I was a good kid.

[00:14:02] Good, quote unquote.

[00:14:03] Yeah.

[00:14:04] I had girlfriends, only kissed them.

[00:14:08] One of them didn't even kiss.

[00:14:09] That's why she dumped me.

[00:14:11] No, I got dumped because I was a prude.

[00:14:13] Oh, no.

[00:14:14] No.

[00:14:14] No, sorry.

[00:14:15] I was joking.

[00:14:15] I didn't know that we were stepping on real trauma.

[00:14:18] I'm so sorry.

[00:14:18] It's not trauma.

[00:14:19] We're still friends to this day.

[00:14:21] Okay.

[00:14:22] Yeah, 14 years old.

[00:14:23] I don't know what I'm doing.

[00:14:24] This pretty girl likes me.

[00:14:26] Suddenly, I guess we're dating.

[00:14:27] Yeah.

[00:14:28] At 14 or 15.

[00:14:31] And, you know, I was like, I think I'm supposed to kiss her if I want to kiss her.

[00:14:36] And, you know, but I had no idea how to initiate anything like this.

[00:14:39] Yeah.

[00:14:41] And she got tired of waiting and dumped me.

[00:14:43] Oh, no.

[00:14:45] And there was a lot going on, too.

[00:14:47] But she had some issues.

[00:14:51] Yeah.

[00:14:52] Kind of became rather promiscuous from that point on.

[00:14:56] Okay.

[00:14:57] Then became a family counselor.

[00:14:59] And anyway.

[00:15:01] Well, good for her.

[00:15:02] We have laughed about it.

[00:15:04] Our families were friends.

[00:15:05] And so we would have to see each other even after we broke.

[00:15:08] She dumped me.

[00:15:09] She was looking for something and you weren't able to meet her there.

[00:15:13] I was just thrilled that this blonde-haired girl wanted to hold my hands.

[00:15:16] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:17] And that was enough.

[00:15:18] Oh, yeah.

[00:15:19] At the time.

[00:15:21] Wow.

[00:15:21] And then my second girlfriend, serious girlfriend in high school.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:25] All we did was make out.

[00:15:26] That was it.

[00:15:27] We were both very careful about where our hands were and where.

[00:15:33] Yeah.

[00:15:33] Were you actively trying not to have a bow hair?

[00:15:36] Yeah.

[00:15:36] Well, when you're 16, 17, it's not really up to you.

[00:15:40] Yeah.

[00:15:40] It doesn't take much.

[00:15:42] No.

[00:15:42] Like a gentle breeze.

[00:15:43] Yeah.

[00:15:44] It's a hair trigger.

[00:15:46] Uh-huh.

[00:15:46] That's for sure.

[00:15:47] Gosh.

[00:15:47] We just learned to work around it.

[00:15:51] You're like, don't mind my friend.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:55] Yeah.

[00:15:56] Oh, but in that, after that, I broke up with that girlfriend.

[00:16:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:16:01] I just had lots of female friends.

[00:16:03] Oh, so this is probably too much information.

[00:16:06] So we'll decide if we want to edit this out.

[00:16:07] That's the alternative title for this podcast, by the way.

[00:16:10] Too much TMI.

[00:16:11] TMI.

[00:16:13] We're at my house.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:14] Late at night.

[00:16:15] And we're in high school.

[00:16:16] Yeah.

[00:16:16] We're band geeks.

[00:16:17] And two of my friends are hanging out with, we're watching TV.

[00:16:20] It's like one in the morning.

[00:16:21] Uh-huh.

[00:16:22] On a Friday night.

[00:16:23] Yeah.

[00:16:23] My parents are asleep.

[00:16:24] My brother's asleep.

[00:16:25] And we're in the TV room.

[00:16:27] And I forgot.

[00:16:28] I said something, you know, I was making fun of one of them.

[00:16:32] And she like jumps on top of me and starts trying to like tickle me or something.

[00:16:37] Whoa.

[00:16:37] And immediately get a boner.

[00:16:38] Oh.

[00:16:39] Just happened.

[00:16:40] Right?

[00:16:41] Uh-huh.

[00:16:41] And now she's like her straddling me and her, and our other friend is also tickling me.

[00:16:47] And like the only thing I could do to get him to stop was to just grab both of them

[00:16:51] Uh-huh.

[00:16:52] And just squeeze them.

[00:16:53] Oh.

[00:16:54] And I remember thinking.

[00:16:56] How old were you?

[00:16:57] Like 18.

[00:16:58] Okay.

[00:16:59] 17, 18.

[00:16:59] Yeah.

[00:17:00] Yeah.

[00:17:00] And I remember thinking, I'm going to remember this moment.

[00:17:05] I'm going to add this to my spank pick.

[00:17:07] Because that same woman who I told the story about who I ran away from.

[00:17:11] This was before or after.

[00:17:13] I can't remember if it was before or after.

[00:17:15] Okay.

[00:17:15] Honestly.

[00:17:16] But it's around that time.

[00:17:17] Yeah.

[00:17:18] She notices the boner.

[00:17:20] Uh-oh.

[00:17:21] Oh.

[00:17:22] And immediately starts like purposefully like grinding on.

[00:17:26] Okay.

[00:17:27] Yeah.

[00:17:28] And so like.

[00:17:29] This has gone from playful to.

[00:17:31] Yeah.

[00:17:31] No.

[00:17:31] She knew what she was doing.

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Okay.

[00:17:33] And I'm again.

[00:17:35] You know me.

[00:17:36] I'm panicking at this point.

[00:17:38] Yeah.

[00:17:38] So I'm realizing squeezing them together against me is not helping.

[00:17:43] Yeah.

[00:17:43] No.

[00:17:44] So now I'm like twirling around on the couch trying to like extricate myself.

[00:17:49] Right.

[00:17:49] From hell.

[00:17:50] Right.

[00:17:51] Which.

[00:17:51] Shame is.

[00:17:52] Shame is looming large now.

[00:17:53] Okay.

[00:17:54] Okay.

[00:17:55] Somewhere between age nine and 18.

[00:17:58] Shame set in.

[00:17:58] Oh yeah.

[00:17:59] Yeah.

[00:17:59] And it was like.

[00:18:00] You're writhing.

[00:18:01] I was.

[00:18:02] But not from pleasure.

[00:18:04] Both.

[00:18:04] Okay.

[00:18:05] Some pleasure.

[00:18:07] A fair hit of pleasure.

[00:18:08] It became a very fond memory.

[00:18:12] Yeah.

[00:18:13] Did you masturbate to that later?

[00:18:15] Probably.

[00:18:15] Okay.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:16] Well.

[00:18:17] Okay.

[00:18:17] Well that's almost a threesome.

[00:18:20] I would.

[00:18:21] I would count it as a clothed threesome.

[00:18:24] Proto threesome.

[00:18:26] 3D printed threesome.

[00:18:30] But I guess prior to that.

[00:18:33] And we've talked about how porn was difficult to procure.

[00:18:37] Oh yeah.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] Was there any time.

[00:18:40] Because you know our horny brain is different from our non lizard brain.

[00:18:44] You know our sane brain.

[00:18:46] Our you know post nut clarity brain.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:49] Which knows all sees all is very wise.

[00:18:51] Yeah.

[00:18:51] But our horny brain is different.

[00:18:53] Yeah.

[00:18:53] Was there porn that you had to work pretty hard to procure that then you felt a little post

[00:19:00] nut clarity afterwards?

[00:19:02] Oh.

[00:19:04] No.

[00:19:05] Just because the selection was so like small.

[00:19:10] Oh okay.

[00:19:10] So.

[00:19:12] You always felt like pretty proud of yourself for.

[00:19:14] I think so.

[00:19:15] Getting porn.

[00:19:15] Yeah.

[00:19:16] Because yeah you had to go.

[00:19:17] There was like a little video store down the street.

[00:19:19] Uh.

[00:19:21] Yeah.

[00:19:21] And you had to go behind the curtain.

[00:19:23] Yeah.

[00:19:23] And the first time I went the lady carded me because she didn't think I was old enough.

[00:19:28] Right.

[00:19:29] And had to pull out my driver's license.

[00:19:31] Oh boy.

[00:19:32] Um.

[00:19:33] And then literally just like not even looking you grab a tape and you pay for it and you

[00:19:37] get out of there because it's.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:40] It's embarrassing.

[00:19:40] Yeah.

[00:19:41] And so it was it was such an embarrassing thing that I rarely did it.

[00:19:45] Uh huh.

[00:19:45] It's just you want to put up with the look of the Chinese lady behind the counter.

[00:19:51] And the.

[00:19:52] Yeah.

[00:19:53] So that's shame.

[00:19:54] Kinda.

[00:19:55] Yeah.

[00:19:55] No absolutely.

[00:19:56] Embarrassment.

[00:19:57] Yeah.

[00:19:57] But also shame.

[00:19:57] And so I was just happy to see someone you know in a sexual situation.

[00:20:01] I didn't know.

[00:20:02] Yeah.

[00:20:02] I didn't even know.

[00:20:03] It's like today you can you can curate your tastes.

[00:20:07] Oh yeah.

[00:20:08] Down to a T.

[00:20:09] You get a Spotify wrapped at the end of the year.

[00:20:12] But you know what I hear from a lot of boys men you know men about when they were boys.

[00:20:17] I think that's more fair to say is that especially in the 80s and 90s a lot of them would maybe

[00:20:23] say get a video or a magazine from their father and then invite everyone over and they would

[00:20:28] watch it with pillows on their laps.

[00:20:31] Was that ever an experience that you had?

[00:20:33] No.

[00:20:34] I wanted it to be my own thing.

[00:20:36] I didn't want to.

[00:20:37] Any other dudes would have would have ruined it.

[00:20:40] Harsh the vibe.

[00:20:41] Yeah.

[00:20:41] Because it was kind of personal for me.

[00:20:43] It was.

[00:20:44] Yeah.

[00:20:44] It didn't feel like a way to bond with other dudes.

[00:20:47] Oh.

[00:20:47] Like I never understood like circle jerks in fraternities.

[00:20:51] And I mean no judgment.

[00:20:53] Right.

[00:20:53] Good for them.

[00:20:54] But I was never comfortable talking about it.

[00:20:58] And I think it's probably the shame thing too because if I think I'm doing something.

[00:21:04] I don't know if I thought it was sin.

[00:21:06] I knew it was in that realm.

[00:21:07] It was in a gray area.

[00:21:09] Masturbating in general or watching porn?

[00:21:12] Yeah.

[00:21:12] Okay.

[00:21:12] They were always coupled the way that you were kind of taught?

[00:21:15] Eventually.

[00:21:16] Yeah.

[00:21:17] Eventually.

[00:21:19] Yeah.

[00:21:19] That came later when it got more accessible.

[00:21:23] Back in our day we had to use our imagination.

[00:21:26] No.

[00:21:29] We didn't need visuals.

[00:21:32] We had everything we needed was right up here.

[00:21:35] Princess Leia was just.

[00:21:37] Oh.

[00:21:37] So that's the first one I'll read.

[00:21:39] Okay.

[00:21:40] A person on my.

[00:21:41] I won't say their names.

[00:21:42] Okay.

[00:21:43] I forgot to ask if they wanted to use their names.

[00:21:44] But on the Chappell Probation Facebook group I asked this question.

[00:21:48] And one person wrote.

[00:21:49] I had a Star Wars insider magazine that had a metal bikini Leia pinup inside.

[00:21:55] Hey now.

[00:21:55] Of course I had to hide it and never pinned it up.

[00:21:58] This makes me wonder where it is though.

[00:22:01] Acceptable franchises like Star Wars were gateway sex as a kid.

[00:22:05] I remember there was a fiction series I was reading in the Star Wars universe that had

[00:22:10] a sex scene and it was like nothing I had ever read before.

[00:22:14] Ooh.

[00:22:14] And then several people chimed in and said yeah bikini metal bikini Leia men and women.

[00:22:22] Don't cause him to stumble.

[00:22:25] See this is what we're going to lose I think moving forward into you know this kind of splintered

[00:22:32] metaverse is having the same sexual awakenings.

[00:22:35] I don't think that we will have as many of you know I think at that time Princess Leia was every you know young boy's wet dream.

[00:22:45] Yeah.

[00:22:46] Young man's wet dream you know so.

[00:22:47] And old man's wet dream.

[00:23:17] Yeah.

[00:23:19] We were the first generations to have programming for children you know in any kind of way shape or form.

[00:23:25] More millennial than Gen X but still.

[00:23:28] And I think so we have all these collective memories.

[00:23:31] We have this like collective nostalgia that we all that a lot of people profit off of.

[00:23:43] Mm.

[00:23:45] You know it's not it's not really broadcasted in the same way.

[00:23:49] So not just sexual awakening just like cultural references are sort of disappearing.

[00:23:53] But I never thought of it affecting collective sexual awakening moments until this moment.

[00:23:59] I think that's kind of interesting.

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:01] Yeah.

[00:24:01] Those rugrats you know.

[00:24:03] Right.

[00:24:04] I'm trying to think of cartoons from the 90s.

[00:24:07] Well I mean you know Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were like kind of hot.

[00:24:11] Oh.

[00:24:12] Because.

[00:24:12] TNT.

[00:24:13] Because they have they have confidence.

[00:24:16] Confidence.

[00:24:17] Yeah.

[00:24:18] And I don't know if.

[00:24:20] I found a corner of the internet of.

[00:24:24] I don't think this was like.

[00:24:25] I think your kids were too young for this but you're definitely not in the age range of this.

[00:24:30] But Puzzle Place.

[00:24:32] Yeah.

[00:24:32] It was a PBS show.

[00:24:34] Wow.

[00:24:35] But there was like a hot puppet.

[00:24:36] Oh.

[00:24:37] Yeah.

[00:24:37] His name was Sky.

[00:24:39] What?

[00:24:39] I know.

[00:24:40] And I found a corner of the internet that was like thirsty for Sky and I was like I feel seen.

[00:24:44] From PBS.

[00:24:45] From PBS.

[00:24:46] Yeah.

[00:24:46] He was a hot.

[00:24:47] Sexual awakening.

[00:24:48] Happening on public television.

[00:24:50] Yeah.

[00:24:51] No.

[00:24:51] It's happening.

[00:24:52] It's happening to your kids too.

[00:24:54] No.

[00:24:54] Yeah.

[00:24:55] This is a public service.

[00:24:56] If I was if I could do it without throwing up I would ask them.

[00:24:59] Yeah.

[00:24:59] For this podcast but.

[00:25:00] I just told your daughter before we recorded that you've had sex before.

[00:25:04] I'm so sorry to let her know.

[00:25:05] Well.

[00:25:06] I'm so sorry.

[00:25:07] It was bound to happen sooner or later.

[00:25:09] I know.

[00:25:09] When they figure it out.

[00:25:11] Yeah.

[00:25:12] But I.

[00:25:12] So I guess you know collective sexual awakenings kind of going to bed.

[00:25:18] Yeah.

[00:25:19] Which is a little sad but I think maybe I.

[00:25:23] That's interesting.

[00:25:24] Yeah.

[00:25:24] I think I have to chew on that a little bit.

[00:25:26] But.

[00:25:26] Okay.

[00:25:26] So let's go back to you now.

[00:25:28] Okay.

[00:25:30] You're coming of age.

[00:25:31] Is porn accessible in the mid 90s?

[00:25:35] No.

[00:25:36] No.

[00:25:36] Not for me.

[00:25:37] Yeah.

[00:25:37] I am.

[00:25:38] A lot of my friends would.

[00:25:40] Not a lot.

[00:25:41] But a lot of my guy friends would tell me later that they would have these kind of circle jerk parties I guess.

[00:25:46] I never.

[00:25:46] Wow.

[00:25:47] Called it that.

[00:25:48] But yeah.

[00:25:49] Just sitting around with pillows in your lap like watching some dad's DVD or.

[00:25:53] Yeah.

[00:25:53] But they all know each other jerking off.

[00:25:56] I guess.

[00:25:56] But I don't even know if they really would jerk off.

[00:25:59] Oh.

[00:25:59] It was just more that they were all aroused.

[00:26:04] But I don't.

[00:26:04] I don't think they brought their own pillows.

[00:26:06] Well I think the pillows were there.

[00:26:08] I don't know that they walked over there with a pillow over their crotch.

[00:26:12] Yeah.

[00:26:12] But I didn't watch any porn until I had already had sex.

[00:26:19] Okay.

[00:26:19] Yeah.

[00:26:20] I felt so.

[00:26:23] I don't even know if it was guilt.

[00:26:25] I was afraid of it.

[00:26:26] I was so afraid of it and didn't really know how to access it.

[00:26:30] And was so policed in so many other ways that it wasn't really top of mind for me to go seek out.

[00:26:37] I think that one of the most.

[00:26:40] The ways in which I let's say added to my spank bank was mostly through lyrics in songs.

[00:26:48] Oh.

[00:26:49] Yeah.

[00:26:50] So talk about using your imagination.

[00:26:51] You know.

[00:26:52] But I think one of my first sexual awakenings like as an older teen.

[00:26:58] Like really marrying those two sides of like feeling horned up and like attaching it to a physiological response.

[00:27:05] Was probably Dashboard Confessional.

[00:27:07] Oh yeah.

[00:27:08] The song Hands Down.

[00:27:09] Yeah.

[00:27:10] And it was just about like basically stealing away to get some you know and having it be really intimate but you don't want to tell your friends.

[00:27:20] And it really got into you know the desire of wanting to kiss someone of wanting to be close to someone.

[00:27:28] And it being the best thing that's ever hands down and this is the best thing that you know I could ever have imagined or whatever.

[00:27:35] And so that was huge.

[00:27:37] And then I mean this is pretty classic trope of you know women of a certain age and time.

[00:27:46] But I would watch chick flicks and those like three thrusts that they would show on screen.

[00:27:55] Those were my everything.

[00:27:56] I was like wow.

[00:27:58] It was three.

[00:27:59] Three.

[00:27:59] It's always like three thrusts.

[00:28:02] Like slow passionate.

[00:28:04] Not always.

[00:28:05] Oh just three.

[00:28:06] But it's just usually about no more than five and always more than three.

[00:28:11] And then done.

[00:28:12] And then and then completion you know.

[00:28:15] And I I mean you know this was in every chick flick.

[00:28:20] There's like you know there's there's the the couple they're both under the blankets which oh my gosh so hot you know but you don't know that yet.

[00:28:29] Yeah.

[00:28:29] And and you don't know that things will smell.

[00:28:32] So you're just like okay you're completely you know engrossed in this like fantastical world.

[00:28:36] And they they they kiss passionately and then there's like three thrusts and then she comes and then he comes and then they roll over and they like fall asleep.

[00:28:45] Yeah.

[00:28:46] They always have to cover up too.

[00:28:47] They cover up and they never run to the bathroom.

[00:28:50] No.

[00:28:51] You know with the cum streaming down their legs.

[00:28:53] Get a towel.

[00:28:53] Like that's never a thing.

[00:28:54] Exactly.

[00:28:54] So those were my spank bank items.

[00:28:58] Hmm.

[00:28:59] I don't think again I don't think I really felt much shame.

[00:29:03] You know I think the only time I felt shame was I won't say who but there's someone in my life who it was it was a boy not someone I you know had anything sexual with.

[00:29:18] But I think I wanted to especially as a PK I wanted to prove that I was like cool and could just be just one of the guys.

[00:29:27] And so I think he put on something like a Bam.

[00:29:31] I forget his name Bam Magara or whatever his name is.

[00:29:35] It was like these weird brand of skater bros that would do like kind of jackass-y stuff.

[00:29:43] OK.

[00:29:43] But then there'd be boobs.

[00:29:45] Oh.

[00:29:46] Like a lot of boobs.

[00:29:48] Like just boobs.

[00:29:49] Lots of boobs.

[00:29:50] Show up.

[00:29:50] Yeah.

[00:29:51] And maybe some making out but not really anything sexually like pornographic in terms of copulation.

[00:30:00] Yeah.

[00:30:00] But there was definitely just like guys skating doing jackass-y stuff and then boobs.

[00:30:06] There was like a whole I think early 2000s wave of these types of skater videos.

[00:30:13] OK.

[00:30:13] That never would have crossed my path.

[00:30:15] But I was at this person's house and I wanted to show that I was just one of the guys.

[00:30:21] And so we watched like three hours worth of these you know.

[00:30:24] Wow.

[00:30:25] Boob filled you know skater videos.

[00:30:29] And then I did I did feel gross after.

[00:30:32] Yeah.

[00:30:33] I found that was probably the first time that I like legitimately felt.

[00:30:38] Hmm.

[00:30:40] Complicit to the patriarchy.

[00:30:42] Yeah.

[00:30:42] Complicit to misogyny.

[00:30:43] It was because you were looking through the male gaze.

[00:30:46] Yeah.

[00:30:47] Yeah.

[00:30:48] And just yeah I don't know what what made me feel gross after.

[00:30:51] Hmm.

[00:30:52] I felt.

[00:30:52] It's not the skating.

[00:30:54] Well.

[00:30:55] Yeah.

[00:30:56] Not the skating.

[00:30:57] To this day skating.

[00:30:58] I mean they were grinding pretty hard on those rails.

[00:31:00] Yeah.

[00:31:01] But no it was the portrayal of women.

[00:31:05] Yeah.

[00:31:05] It was that there were objects.

[00:31:07] Yeah.

[00:31:08] And they were.

[00:31:09] They yeah they were a certain.

[00:31:13] An accessory.

[00:31:14] They were an accessory.

[00:31:16] Yeah.

[00:31:16] The boobs were just there to decorate.

[00:31:18] And show how cool the dudes are.

[00:31:20] Yeah.

[00:31:21] And I think what bothered me was I wanted more for the woman.

[00:31:25] Like I was like.

[00:31:25] Yeah.

[00:31:26] Of course.

[00:31:26] I was like I know you want more than this.

[00:31:28] You know.

[00:31:28] I felt.

[00:31:30] You're worth more than your boobs.

[00:31:31] Yeah.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:33] And I felt a little.

[00:31:34] At the time.

[00:31:35] I felt the feeling of being grossed out.

[00:31:38] Yeah.

[00:31:39] It just didn't feel loving.

[00:31:40] It didn't feel kind.

[00:31:42] It was.

[00:31:44] You know.

[00:31:45] And it makes sense from a purity culture standpoint.

[00:31:47] Because sex is supposed to only exist like you know for marriage.

[00:31:50] Yeah.

[00:31:50] So I think it kind of.

[00:31:53] It shattered that illusion a little bit.

[00:31:55] You robbed those women's future husbands of being the first person to see their boobs.

[00:32:01] Yeah.

[00:32:02] Yeah.

[00:32:03] Yeah.

[00:32:04] Exactly.

[00:32:04] Or the whole world who watched those.

[00:32:06] Yeah.

[00:32:07] And then.

[00:32:08] I think just the discomfort of watching a woman perform for the male gaze.

[00:32:13] That was probably the first time I really had seen that.

[00:32:15] Yeah.

[00:32:15] Because I hadn't seen any porn before.

[00:32:17] So I think if you watch porn these were just kind of like you know really light.

[00:32:22] Kind of almost the way you would like in Grand Theft Auto where there's a lot of you know nudity casually.

[00:32:29] Yeah.

[00:32:29] I think it was kind of like that for other people.

[00:32:32] But for me it was like the first set of boobs I'd seen that weren't you know my mom's or you know.

[00:32:38] Yeah.

[00:32:39] So it.

[00:32:40] I definitely felt.

[00:32:42] I felt shame and I felt overwhelmed.

[00:32:46] I felt really over.

[00:32:47] I wasn't turned on.

[00:32:48] I just felt really overwhelmed by it.

[00:32:51] Yeah.

[00:32:51] Because those women are not.

[00:32:53] They're not in a place where they have agency and power.

[00:32:57] Not the way they're portrayed.

[00:32:59] Maybe.

[00:32:59] Maybe on set they felt very in control.

[00:33:01] Yeah.

[00:33:02] They might have told people.

[00:33:03] Yeah.

[00:33:04] I'm doing this for feminism.

[00:33:05] Yeah.

[00:33:06] But they're actually and they might but they're playing into the sort of male gaze and the.

[00:33:11] Yeah.

[00:33:11] Male centered perspective.

[00:33:13] Yeah.

[00:33:13] And I think I felt this deep sadness.

[00:33:15] I felt like a deep sadness.

[00:33:17] Yeah.

[00:33:17] And I didn't know.

[00:33:19] I think at the time I processed it through the Christian lens of just like oh like praying

[00:33:24] for her type of thing you know.

[00:33:25] Yeah.

[00:33:25] Or praying for you know my whoever's watching it too.

[00:33:30] And and finding a boundary for myself.

[00:33:36] Yeah.

[00:33:37] That's important.

[00:33:38] Hey this is Cortland.

[00:33:39] And this is Megan.

[00:33:41] We're from the thereafter podcast.

[00:33:43] And we are so excited about our second annual content warning event coming up next February.

[00:33:49] This year we're going to be in Atlanta, Georgia over President's Day weekend February 15th and 16th 2025 with some extra hangout time on Friday February 14th.

[00:34:01] Content warning is a unique event with more than 20 collaborators who are podcasters, authors, therapists, speakers, and creators that want to reinvigorate the conversation happening around sex and sexuality and faith deconstruction spaces.

[00:34:16] We'll have panel discussions, facilitated conversations, and even a live stream option for those who can't make it in person.

[00:34:24] Our hope is to make this an annual gathering in various locations as we continue striving to build inclusive community.

[00:34:32] You can find all the event information at contentwarningevent.com.

[00:34:37] Early bird tickets are on sale through October 31st.

[00:34:41] We hope you'll join us there.

[00:34:44] Yeah.

[00:34:45] Do you have any other ones from the Facebook group you want to read?

[00:34:48] You mentioned music.

[00:34:49] Like someone, a woman wrote, Depeche Mode was an awakening.

[00:34:55] Hey now.

[00:34:58] Pirates of the Caribbean.

[00:35:00] Just the characters of Elizabeth and Will and Jack were a huge bisexual awakening for me.

[00:35:06] Ooh.

[00:35:07] Okay.

[00:35:07] Orlando Bloom and Keira Knightley.

[00:35:09] Like, give it up.

[00:35:10] Pretty people.

[00:35:12] Gorgeous people.

[00:35:13] Yeah.

[00:35:14] Wow.

[00:35:15] Did, when you watched porn, not everyone likes porn when they first see it.

[00:35:21] Did you?

[00:35:22] No.

[00:35:22] Did you have that same feeling as watching the boobs on the skater video?

[00:35:27] Yeah, kind of.

[00:35:27] I think.

[00:35:30] No, that's a really good question.

[00:35:32] Yeah, I didn't really like it.

[00:35:34] Like, just seeing a penis go into a vagina and have that, like, contrasting that with the kind of things that would get me off, which was just more like not seeing any genitalia, but seeing how when someone's getting railed, like they're making eye contact with each other, you know?

[00:35:52] Yeah, the intensity of the moment.

[00:35:53] Exactly.

[00:35:54] Yeah.

[00:35:54] That, well, that still is more appealing to me than just, like, the rote.

[00:35:59] Yeah.

[00:36:00] You know?

[00:36:01] Yeah.

[00:36:02] Just seeing a penis go into a vagina kind of doesn't really, it didn't do anything for me the first time I watched porn, and it still doesn't really do that much for me.

[00:36:10] Yeah.

[00:36:10] And, but, you know, I think typically that's geared towards men who are supposedly, in general terms, more visually kind of driven.

[00:36:26] Yeah.

[00:36:26] Driven.

[00:36:27] With less imagination and less understanding, I think, of the things that make sex fulfilling for all the people involved.

[00:36:36] Yeah.

[00:36:37] And I do, I do wonder because, you know, I'm, I'm never going to fully know, but I do wonder what is socialized and then what is, you know, just biological.

[00:36:50] Yeah.

[00:36:50] Ooh, yeah.

[00:36:52] What do you think?

[00:36:53] Like, like, in terms of enjoying that connection, I do feel like that men in our westernized, you know, patriarchal society get robbed of want, of maybe being socialized to be turned on by the intimacy.

[00:37:10] I don't know if it's like they absolutely, they just don't need it as much or if it's like socialized, you know?

[00:37:16] What do you, what do you think?

[00:37:16] I think they don't need it to get off, but I think they're also socialized to see that level of intimacy as emasculating.

[00:37:28] Huh.

[00:37:29] Okay.

[00:37:29] That would be my guess.

[00:37:31] That sounds right.

[00:37:32] My theory.

[00:37:33] Yeah.

[00:37:33] Well, to our listeners, like, please write in, let us know what you think.

[00:37:37] Yeah.

[00:37:38] Because.

[00:37:38] Because the stereotype, which is usually a truth of statistical fact, is that men aren't great at sex and they need these guides.

[00:37:48] They need help.

[00:37:49] They need communication.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:51] And that's true of a lot of things, not just sex, right?

[00:37:54] Right.

[00:37:54] The ability to express what it is you want and need with someone else is a kind of intimacy.

[00:38:01] And I think your typical, you know, knuckle dragging dude in America or in the world does not have the priority of connecting that way with his own friends, but certainly with women.

[00:38:17] Yeah.

[00:38:18] Yeah.

[00:38:19] Interesting.

[00:38:20] The train scene in Risky Business with Phil Collins crooning hubba hubba.

[00:38:26] Hubba hubba.

[00:38:28] Have you seen Risky Business?

[00:38:29] It's a really old movie.

[00:38:29] I think I've seen it a long time ago on TV.

[00:38:33] And Rebecca De Mornay.

[00:38:35] I mean, I know the famous scenes, but.

[00:38:37] Yeah.

[00:38:38] I've seen it on, I think it used to play on E!

[00:38:41] So I don't think I saw the full version.

[00:38:43] There was full on sex scenes.

[00:38:45] Yeah.

[00:38:45] That was probably a part of a lot of people's sexual development.

[00:38:48] For sure.

[00:38:49] I would, 100%.

[00:38:52] I would, usually the sex scene happens about 70% way through a movie.

[00:39:00] Oh, right.

[00:39:01] So I used to rent DVDs and literally just like go to the 60% mark and just kind of scroll to the sex scene.

[00:39:11] And by scroll, we had to hit fast forward on the tape.

[00:39:15] Oh.

[00:39:15] Or the DVD, right?

[00:39:17] Yeah.

[00:39:17] But can you scroll, you could scroll faster with a DVD.

[00:39:19] Well, yeah.

[00:39:20] Yeah.

[00:39:20] Once it was on a laptop, it was pretty easy.

[00:39:22] Yeah.

[00:39:24] Oh, technology.

[00:39:25] I know.

[00:39:26] All right.

[00:39:26] So which, you would get a movie and you know there's a spicy scene somewhere.

[00:39:32] Yeah.

[00:39:32] You already know ahead of time.

[00:39:33] Yeah.

[00:39:33] Okay.

[00:39:34] Sometimes.

[00:39:35] Or just assuming.

[00:39:36] Or just assuming.

[00:39:38] Yeah.

[00:39:38] Okay.

[00:39:38] Yeah.

[00:39:38] It's going to be somewhere right here.

[00:39:40] Yeah.

[00:39:41] And I would sometimes be let down.

[00:39:42] Yeah.

[00:39:43] Yeah.

[00:39:43] Because sometimes it's earlier.

[00:39:44] It can be.

[00:39:46] Sometimes there's like in the first like 15 minutes, there's like a quick one.

[00:39:50] Right.

[00:39:51] Like, y tu mamá también.

[00:39:52] Oh, that was a big sexual awakening one.

[00:39:55] I already said the movie title, but that was, I was in college when I watched that.

[00:40:00] I watched it for, I think, extra credit in Spanish and I was not ready for it to like

[00:40:06] wreck my life.

[00:40:07] Yeah.

[00:40:08] Oh.

[00:40:08] So I don't think I've seen it.

[00:40:10] I've read it.

[00:40:10] I remember hearing about it.

[00:40:11] There's like, it's like two boys and an older woman.

[00:40:14] Yes.

[00:40:14] And it's Diego Luna and Gael Garcia Bernal.

[00:40:18] So it's like, it's everything.

[00:40:21] So.

[00:40:22] Yeah.

[00:40:22] It opens with, I mean, obviously a lot of non-American movies are a lot more forthcoming with nudity.

[00:40:30] Right.

[00:40:31] This is how I got my film degree, y'all.

[00:40:33] Hey.

[00:40:33] But it basically, this director, he, his style is very naturalistic.

[00:40:40] And so it was probably one of the first times I saw just very, very like normal human sex,

[00:40:49] basically.

[00:40:50] Not porn, not like, you know, showboating for the camera, not romantic.

[00:40:54] Not crazy positions.

[00:40:56] Yeah.

[00:40:56] Just kind of like you're in college and the dorm room next door, they're fucking, you know,

[00:41:01] that kind of sex where they're, you know, the bodies are really normal.

[00:41:05] I mean, they're very hot.

[00:41:06] Yeah.

[00:41:08] Yeah.

[00:41:09] Yeah.

[00:41:33] But they're not like glossed up.

[00:41:35] That was, I mean, you could just watch that and take notes.

[00:41:39] You know, it was sensual.

[00:41:41] It was sexy, but it was also very normal.

[00:41:45] You know, it just kind of gave you a little peek behind a curtain of what like regular couples

[00:41:50] might've been doing.

[00:41:52] All right.

[00:41:52] So we'll have a horny chapel film night.

[00:41:55] Yeah.

[00:41:55] Where we just want, you should, if you haven't seen it, you should, you should watch it with

[00:41:58] It's a really good movie anyway.

[00:42:00] Yeah.

[00:42:00] I don't know if we're going to watch it with your kids.

[00:42:02] No, but it is a, it's a very, it's a very good movie.

[00:42:05] It's one of my favorites.

[00:42:06] Okay.

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:07] No, I've read, it's one of those I know about it.

[00:42:09] I've read about it.

[00:42:10] It shows up in think pieces on sexuality and, um, yeah.

[00:42:15] And so, but I think, I think what was interesting was, you know, at the time when I was watching

[00:42:20] this and I was getting my film, film studies degree, sorry, not more exciting than that,

[00:42:25] just film studies.

[00:42:27] But, um, I was still a worship leader and a small group leader.

[00:42:31] So I think looking back, if we're talking about sexual awakening, I felt that that was

[00:42:36] a time I really had to splinter myself into a sexual being and a non-sexual being.

[00:42:42] And a worship leader.

[00:42:43] And a worship leader.

[00:42:44] Yeah.

[00:42:44] Because, I mean, you're fucking 1920, like you're horny as shit.

[00:42:48] Yeah.

[00:42:49] But you're also, uh, expected to walk this purity line, expected to be, uh, you know,

[00:42:58] chased.

[00:42:58] Yep.

[00:42:59] And to not lead men astray.

[00:43:00] And to not even want sex, really, is the message we've talked about.

[00:43:03] Yeah.

[00:43:04] A hundred percent.

[00:43:04] Um, did you feel that moment at any point where you had to splinter yourselves a bit?

[00:43:09] My whole youth, early adulthood, for sure.

[00:43:13] Walk me through that.

[00:43:13] Like what ages and what, what did that lead to?

[00:43:18] I think that was a big part of my deconstruction, the splintering thing.

[00:43:22] Okay.

[00:43:22] Because everything in church was teaching me that about fruits of the spirit.

[00:43:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:31] And if you have that, if you, if, so I was doing everything.

[00:43:34] I was leading Bible studies.

[00:43:36] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:36] I was witnessing to people.

[00:43:37] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:37] People were coming to church and getting saved.

[00:43:39] Because of you.

[00:43:40] Yeah.

[00:43:40] Like I, at one of the like summer camps, a couple of my friends went up to give testimonies about

[00:43:47] me.

[00:43:49] Wow.

[00:43:50] Helping them.

[00:43:51] And I don't think they're Christian anymore.

[00:43:52] But at the time it was like a big deal.

[00:43:55] Yeah.

[00:43:55] And people were celebrating me and I was leading worship.

[00:43:57] Wow.

[00:43:57] And I was bringing people to Christ.

[00:43:59] So I was, I had all the hallmarks of someone who was living the correct Christian life.

[00:44:05] You were like perfect.

[00:44:06] Yeah.

[00:44:06] And I was masturbating every day to whatever I could grab onto.

[00:44:12] Mostly my imagination, remember.

[00:44:14] Yeah.

[00:44:15] Mostly your imagination.

[00:44:17] But yeah.

[00:44:18] But yeah.

[00:44:18] And also getting the message that you're not supposed to do that.

[00:44:23] Right.

[00:44:24] So did you feel like, did you feel, ah, I shouldn't be the one leading these people to Christ?

[00:44:31] No.

[00:44:31] I'm like a dirty fucker.

[00:44:32] I was like, absolutely I should.

[00:44:34] Okay.

[00:44:34] And I'm a dirty fucker.

[00:44:37] And maybe there's some theological truth somewhere to be found.

[00:44:42] Sure.

[00:44:42] With all this.

[00:44:43] Oh, okay.

[00:44:44] Yeah.

[00:44:45] And so, yeah.

[00:44:47] And then when I met.

[00:44:47] Yeah, David struggled with lust.

[00:44:48] Right?

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:49] And he turned out all right.

[00:44:50] Well, someone died, Scott.

[00:44:53] Someone died.

[00:44:53] But he turned out, that's all that matters.

[00:44:55] It's fair.

[00:44:56] That's fair.

[00:44:56] And he had Jonathan too.

[00:44:58] Yeah.

[00:44:59] The love.

[00:44:59] Jonathan was kind of a.

[00:45:01] Beyond the love of women, you know.

[00:45:03] Low key slay.

[00:45:04] I think I kind of had a crush on Jonathan.

[00:45:06] Okay.

[00:45:07] Yeah.

[00:45:07] Just from the stories.

[00:45:08] I think David did too.

[00:45:10] I'm seeing that clearly now.

[00:45:12] Okay.

[00:45:12] But you didn't feel like, ah, like I'm unworthy of leading these people to Christ because X,

[00:45:18] Y, Z.

[00:45:19] Yeah.

[00:45:20] That's cool.

[00:45:20] Because I feel like a lot of people struggle with that.

[00:45:22] I know.

[00:45:23] And I don't know why I was able to, I don't know, thread that needle theologically because

[00:45:29] I kept telling myself, as long as there's fruits of the spirit, as long as I'm living

[00:45:34] this godly life.

[00:45:36] Yeah.

[00:45:36] It's that whole everything is permissible thing.

[00:45:39] It's like.

[00:45:39] Okay.

[00:45:40] Then I felt like special or something.

[00:45:44] Uh-huh.

[00:45:44] Because I heard people give testimonies.

[00:45:45] I'm struggling with masturbation.

[00:45:47] I'm struggling with lust.

[00:45:48] Yeah.

[00:45:48] And I'm like, I have masturbation and lust in my life, but they're under control.

[00:45:54] Yeah.

[00:45:55] I'm not struggling with it.

[00:45:56] I can stop anytime I want.

[00:45:58] I'm going with it.

[00:45:58] But, um...

[00:46:00] Interesting.

[00:46:01] Do you think...

[00:46:03] Do you think there...

[00:46:04] Did you think, I guess, at the time, that there was a way to masturbate without sinning?

[00:46:08] Like, in terms of lusting?

[00:46:11] Yeah.

[00:46:12] Yeah.

[00:46:12] And it was, to me, it was just like a semantic thing of like, well, what is lust?

[00:46:17] Yeah.

[00:46:19] So what is lust?

[00:46:21] Yeah.

[00:46:21] That's a good question.

[00:46:22] Mm.

[00:46:24] Because it's like emo.

[00:46:26] What is it?

[00:46:26] What is emo?

[00:46:27] What is evangelical?

[00:46:29] We use these terms.

[00:46:30] Yeah.

[00:46:30] We don't always know exactly what they mean.

[00:46:32] No.

[00:46:33] Or where the line is when it comes to lust.

[00:46:35] Yeah.

[00:46:36] You know, I'm really craving pizza right now.

[00:46:39] Is that lust?

[00:46:40] Ooh.

[00:46:41] Interesting.

[00:46:42] And these are all just mental gymnastics you do, just so you can make it through the day

[00:46:46] as a Christian.

[00:46:47] Yeah.

[00:46:47] Like, if Jesus woke up with a wet dream, or woke up having had a wet dream, would that

[00:46:53] be considered sinning?

[00:46:56] But he can't sin.

[00:46:57] He was fully human.

[00:46:58] Yeah.

[00:46:59] But if he can't sin...

[00:47:00] He didn't sin.

[00:47:01] So then...

[00:47:02] Yeah.

[00:47:03] You know.

[00:47:04] He died for himself.

[00:47:06] Yeah.

[00:47:07] I don't know.

[00:47:07] Right.

[00:47:07] But the funny thing is, you got all these pastors and Christians, even progressive Christians,

[00:47:12] but mostly conservative Christians, who look at people deconstructing, and they're all like,

[00:47:16] they just want to have sex.

[00:47:18] Oh, sure.

[00:47:19] And I call bullshit on that.

[00:47:20] We all want to have sex.

[00:47:21] But like, I was having the sex.

[00:47:25] Okay.

[00:47:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:47:26] I was exploring all the things while I was a Christian.

[00:47:29] Yeah.

[00:47:29] I had no problem staying in church.

[00:47:31] It was church and the Bible that made me deconstruct.

[00:47:35] It wasn't sex.

[00:47:36] No, no, no.

[00:47:37] Because we were at a place where...

[00:47:39] No, that's why people get married.

[00:47:41] Yeah.

[00:47:42] They got it wrong.

[00:47:43] They got it flipped.

[00:47:44] Right.

[00:47:44] That's why people get married, to have sex.

[00:47:46] Yeah.

[00:47:46] And it's bad sex, by and large.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:49] For the most part.

[00:47:50] No.

[00:47:50] And yeah, those people might deconstruct for that.

[00:47:54] But I didn't.

[00:47:55] And I know actually a lot of people in our community had a fairly sex-positive ethic while Christian.

[00:48:01] Sure.

[00:48:02] So it's not that.

[00:48:03] You can totally go to church.

[00:48:05] Heck, we met...

[00:48:06] I had a student at Mount Sac, this lovely older woman.

[00:48:11] Yeah.

[00:48:12] Everyone's grandma.

[00:48:14] So pleasant.

[00:48:14] So nice.

[00:48:15] Her first paper was about how she and her husband were swingers.

[00:48:19] Wow.

[00:48:20] They go to church.

[00:48:21] Okay.

[00:48:22] They teach Sunday school.

[00:48:24] Yeah.

[00:48:24] And they go to swing clubs Fridays and Saturdays a couple times a month.

[00:48:30] Fun.

[00:48:31] It blew...

[00:48:31] And most of the class is like 18 to 22-year-olds.

[00:48:35] Oh.

[00:48:35] Their minds are blown.

[00:48:37] Oh, yeah.

[00:48:37] They're just like, how...

[00:48:40] Yeah.

[00:48:41] Because in their minds, they split it.

[00:48:42] You know, a lot of these kids go to church.

[00:48:44] A lot of these kids are fucking...

[00:48:45] Right.

[00:48:45] And they know there's this chasm in between those two identities.

[00:48:50] Uh-huh.

[00:48:50] And here's this woman.

[00:48:51] Uh-huh.

[00:48:52] This lovely older woman that we all loved.

[00:48:55] She was kind of like our favorite person in the class.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:59] And when she wrote that paper, it was just like, wow.

[00:49:02] And I remember thinking, like, I don't want to be a swinger, but like, I relate to...

[00:49:08] I go to church and I know, you know, Jerry and I were smoking weed.

[00:49:10] We were...

[00:49:11] You know, we did all kinds of things that were frowned upon by good Christian people.

[00:49:15] Yeah.

[00:49:16] But we still felt no less Christian for it.

[00:49:19] Yeah.

[00:49:20] Okay.

[00:49:20] Yeah.

[00:49:21] I would say, you know, as a...

[00:49:24] Not a counter argument, but I think...

[00:49:27] I remember after having sex, I definitely felt that I would have a hard time finding a Christian husband.

[00:49:33] Oh, right.

[00:49:34] The logistical side of it.

[00:49:36] Yeah.

[00:49:37] So I think that it didn't...

[00:49:39] It's not why I had sex, but it did spurn my deconstruction a little bit.

[00:49:45] Yeah.

[00:49:46] Just a little...

[00:49:47] It was a factor.

[00:49:48] It was a factor.

[00:49:49] It wasn't the factor.

[00:49:49] But did you feel guilty for the sex part, though?

[00:49:53] Hmm.

[00:49:54] I felt...

[00:49:55] I felt a myriad of emotions and feelings.

[00:49:59] I do think guilt was maybe a base note, but it wasn't...

[00:50:05] You know, it was underlying a lot of other feelings.

[00:50:10] The root of the cord.

[00:50:11] Yeah.

[00:50:12] Just...

[00:50:12] I think I mostly felt grief for an identity that I had held for so long.

[00:50:19] Oh.

[00:50:20] Yeah.

[00:50:21] Your body is a temple.

[00:50:23] And one that I expected to uphold.

[00:50:28] My whole adolescence, I expected myself to be a virgin on my wedding night.

[00:50:33] And that...

[00:50:34] A lot of my fantasizing was always through the lens of on my wedding night or after I'm married.

[00:50:42] Right.

[00:50:42] Then I can X, Y, Z.

[00:50:43] You know?

[00:50:45] I had a...

[00:50:46] And so I think it was more of an identity crisis than even guilt.

[00:50:51] Yeah.

[00:50:52] It was more pride, if anything.

[00:50:54] Yeah.

[00:50:55] And my pride was hurt.

[00:50:57] Does that resonate with you?

[00:50:58] Yeah.

[00:50:59] A little bit, because I held on...

[00:51:01] Well, Jerry and I dated and did everything else, but...

[00:51:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:07] Like a month before our wedding, we had sex.

[00:51:10] I'm so ashamed of you, Scott.

[00:51:13] I'm sorry.

[00:51:14] Ugh.

[00:51:15] I don't even...

[00:51:16] I don't even know if I could be in this room with you.

[00:51:18] No, but...

[00:51:18] Don't look at me.

[00:51:19] But wow, you guys...

[00:51:21] That was your first time having sex?

[00:51:22] First time having P and V intercourse, yes.

[00:51:25] Ever?

[00:51:25] Ever.

[00:51:26] Wow.

[00:51:27] But we're doing everything else.

[00:51:29] Sure, sure, sure.

[00:51:29] So like, but...

[00:51:30] Yeah.

[00:51:31] But for some reason, to your point, I think, it's so ingrained in us to stay a virgin until

[00:51:37] you get married.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:38] And that ship sailed a long time ago for Jerry.

[00:51:40] Yeah.

[00:51:40] She wasn't...

[00:51:41] She didn't grow up a Christian.

[00:51:42] Okay.

[00:51:42] And the reason we did it was like, well, we keep hearing all these horror stories about

[00:51:46] the wedding night.

[00:51:47] Right.

[00:51:47] It's too much pressure.

[00:51:49] Yeah.

[00:51:49] And so, let's just do it like a month.

[00:51:51] Like...

[00:51:52] Yeah.

[00:51:52] It's fine.

[00:51:53] It's...

[00:51:53] What is marriage?

[00:51:54] Right.

[00:51:56] Well, in modern...

[00:51:58] In the modern era with all these forms of birth control and safe sex, like, there's

[00:52:03] no reason not to test drive the car.

[00:52:04] Like, I get it.

[00:52:05] I guess back in the day without birth control, it's like you risk, you know, a baby out of

[00:52:09] wedlock and then you're shamed or whatever.

[00:52:11] But in this day and age, like, I think it's a mistake.

[00:52:14] I would even go so far as to say, I think it's a mistake not to have sex before you're

[00:52:18] married.

[00:52:18] I agree.

[00:52:19] Yeah.

[00:52:20] And then you find out the Bible actually doesn't say anything specific to sex before marriage

[00:52:26] between men and women.

[00:52:28] Oh my gosh.

[00:52:29] Please lay this out because I feel like this is a big misconception that is touted.

[00:52:34] If I could cite a verse, I would, but there isn't one other than marriage bed to

[00:52:40] remain pure.

[00:52:42] And that can go a lot of ways.

[00:52:43] Yeah.

[00:52:44] Like wash your sheets.

[00:52:45] Yeah.

[00:52:47] A good disinfectant.

[00:52:49] Yeah.

[00:52:50] It's mostly, you know, lust, adultery, you know, coveting your neighbor's wife kind of

[00:52:57] language that they used to talk about, you know, because Song of Solomon is a love, is

[00:53:08] a teenage girl.

[00:53:09] Right.

[00:53:09] Who are not married.

[00:53:10] Oh.

[00:53:12] Especially the Old Testament is rife with stories of, you know, laying at someone's feet, which

[00:53:17] was a euphemism for having sex.

[00:53:18] Like for Ruth?

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:20] I was trying to remember the name.

[00:53:21] Ruth.

[00:53:21] Yeah.

[00:53:22] Ruth.

[00:53:22] Yeah.

[00:53:23] Go lay at his feet.

[00:53:25] And to gain favor for the family.

[00:53:27] Yeah.

[00:53:28] Basically, she was taking one for the team.

[00:53:30] And if you can't sleep, put his balls in your mouth.

[00:53:31] You'll just, you'll rock right out.

[00:53:35] But yeah, I mean, there's so many sex workers in the Bible.

[00:53:38] Yeah.

[00:53:38] There's so many.

[00:53:39] And they're not cast as villains.

[00:53:41] No.

[00:53:41] Right?

[00:53:41] Like Rahab.

[00:53:42] Yeah.

[00:53:43] Was she a sex worker?

[00:53:45] I don't remember.

[00:53:47] Jericho, right?

[00:53:47] And then some of the sex worker stuff is like metaphorical, like the donkey ball, the balls

[00:53:55] like donkeys.

[00:53:56] Oh.

[00:53:56] Lusting for her Egyptian men.

[00:54:00] Oh, oh, oh.

[00:54:01] Okay, okay.

[00:54:01] Yeah.

[00:54:02] No, yeah.

[00:54:03] But I mean, most of Jesus's homies were like sex workers or like a lot of the women were.

[00:54:07] So they say.

[00:54:08] There's controversy about the Mary Magdalene thing.

[00:54:10] There's this theory that they made her into a sex worker so she wouldn't have so much prominence

[00:54:14] in the canon of the gospel.

[00:54:16] Boo.

[00:54:18] Misogyny.

[00:54:19] But then right back at them is like, what's wrong with being a sex worker?

[00:54:22] Yeah.

[00:54:23] Oh, quick, quick plug.

[00:54:25] I think I've told you.

[00:54:26] Our friends at Go Home Bible You're Drunk, Tori and Justin, had Wild Violet and Transvangelical

[00:54:31] on to talk about how Paul was a sex worker.

[00:54:34] And you think that sounds ridiculous until you hear what Transvangelical's research was.

[00:54:41] I pushed play just waiting for a good laugh and it came away.

[00:54:45] I didn't sleep for two nights still trying to think about what she said.

[00:54:49] You're a truther now.

[00:54:50] Yeah.

[00:54:51] It's out there.

[00:54:52] Oh, shit.

[00:54:52] Anyway.

[00:54:53] Okay.

[00:54:53] Nothing wrong with it.

[00:54:54] Good job.

[00:54:55] Might be the only good thing Paul did.

[00:54:59] Anyway.

[00:54:59] Yeah.

[00:55:00] Yeah.

[00:55:00] Interesting, though.

[00:55:01] Yeah.

[00:55:02] And it's funny, like, we didn't talk much about our sex lives or sex worldview today because

[00:55:09] I think we're focusing on those formative moments and images.

[00:55:15] And some of them are good and some of them are kind of messed up and probably haunt us to

[00:55:20] this day.

[00:55:22] But I think part of why we want to share so candidly is I think all of us have these exact

[00:55:29] types of stories.

[00:55:30] Like every...

[00:55:31] I hope so.

[00:55:31] It's not just us.

[00:55:32] Yeah.

[00:55:32] Every sexual human, I think, has, like, these exact stories.

[00:55:35] But I think when you grow up in the church, you grow up under purity culture.

[00:55:38] These things are so shame bound.

[00:55:42] Yeah.

[00:55:43] And you're made to feel like, one, you're a sinner for having these thoughts, that you're

[00:55:48] isolated in having these thoughts, and that something's kind of wrong with you.

[00:55:52] And the only solution is Jesus's love and glory, which is ironic because we're created

[00:55:58] by God.

[00:55:59] If we were to believe we're created by God, then we must also believe that we were created

[00:56:03] to have these feelings.

[00:56:05] Right.

[00:56:05] So there's just, like, many layers of irony.

[00:56:09] And I think as an adult, I'm still unlearning a lot of the things that I put upon myself.

[00:56:16] Yeah.

[00:56:17] Definitely.

[00:56:18] And things that...

[00:56:20] Because it's not just, like, someone giving you life advice.

[00:56:23] This stuff was, like, you have to obey these biblical truths for a true Christian life.

[00:56:32] And then you come to find it's not in the Bible.

[00:56:35] No.

[00:56:36] Well, and I think, too, it's like...

[00:56:39] I think now it's more clear that a lot of adults that were teaching us also wanted us to be

[00:56:44] better than them.

[00:56:45] Yeah.

[00:56:46] Like, better than they were.

[00:56:47] Yeah.

[00:56:47] You know?

[00:56:48] And so they probably struggled with the exact same things.

[00:56:51] But...

[00:56:52] And I'm sure as a parent, this is something you've faced where you have a different standard for,

[00:56:59] you know, the next generation than you did for yourself.

[00:57:02] Or you don't actually discuss that you've struggled with these things, but you want for them to be better.

[00:57:37] You know?

[00:57:38] You could probably hold them to a standard that was, you know, beyond regular human capacity, but beyond what you were capable of.

[00:57:47] Didn't it bother you when you heard some adult be like, okay, so I had so much sex.

[00:57:52] Yeah.

[00:57:53] And I regret it.

[00:57:55] And, you know, I just don't want you all to go through that.

[00:57:58] Yeah.

[00:57:59] And as a kid, I'd be like, but you got to have sex and now you're forgiven and all is well.

[00:58:06] Yeah.

[00:58:07] So why shouldn't...

[00:58:09] Where was the rub?

[00:58:10] Right.

[00:58:10] Yeah.

[00:58:11] Well, obviously you got rubbed, but where's the...

[00:58:14] Yeah.

[00:58:14] You got rubbed and you're telling me not to get rubbed.

[00:58:17] Yeah.

[00:58:18] It's just like, oh, oh, so it was okay for you.

[00:58:21] Oh, no, it wasn't okay, but it was.

[00:58:23] Yeah, I think because my parents really lived according to their ideals, it made it really difficult for me to understand my friends' parents or other adults who were promiscuous, who did have a sexual past and a history, you know?

[00:58:44] Yeah.

[00:58:44] Because, I mean, sure, there's probably things about my parents I don't know, but as far as I am aware, they are real sticklers for living by what they preach.

[00:58:55] And so there was no seam for me to kind of like pull apart and see through.

[00:59:02] You didn't find a sex dungeon in the basement.

[00:59:04] No, I wish I did.

[00:59:05] I mean, I don't wish I did.

[00:59:07] But because they were such Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, like, you know, they were just so squeaky that it took me a really long time to kind of adjust to that coming out.

[00:59:22] Even with other family members, like finding out that they were more sexually open.

[00:59:28] Like, it was a shock to me because I thought all adults were like my parents, you know?

[00:59:33] So, yeah, it was definitely a rude awakening in a good way.

[00:59:38] Yeah.

[00:59:39] It's probably shocking at first, but it becomes in a good way.

[00:59:43] Yeah.

[00:59:43] Eventually.

[00:59:44] Because, yeah, because you realize what we think is normal is greatly expanded outside of church and outside of that.

[00:59:52] Yeah.

[00:59:53] And I do think there's always this prioritization of like horned up teenagers and feeling all these like sexual awakening feelings.

[00:59:59] But we forget that, you know, if you're a sexual human being, you feel things you can feel urges and enjoy sex for your entire life.

[01:00:10] You know, and I feel that that's not really portrayed very much in in media at all.

[01:00:16] Oh, yeah.

[01:00:18] Have you ever noticed that like whenever there's like someone that's very sexually open, bad things follow?

[01:00:27] Give me an example.

[01:00:29] There was someone, there was that dumb movie with one of the Baldwin brothers.

[01:00:36] It was like in the 90s.

[01:00:38] And I remember Jerry and I watched it thinking it was gonna be kind of sexy because it's like these couples, they sort of flirt and they swap.

[01:00:44] And but it turns out like the Baldwin brother and his wife are kind of evil and trying to ruin these people's lives.

[01:00:53] And it's never just a movie of people having sex for fun and learning something about themselves.

[01:00:59] Yeah.

[01:00:59] It's always like someone has someone breaks the societal norms.

[01:01:03] Yeah.

[01:01:03] And it's either like in the 90s was like bisexual women were always murderers.

[01:01:08] It feels like.

[01:01:10] Yeah.

[01:01:11] Okay.

[01:01:11] Or psychotic.

[01:01:12] In some way.

[01:01:13] Yeah.