The Horny Chapel Episode 2

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00]: This is a Dauntless Media Collective podcast. Visit Dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm Priska and welcome to The Horny Chapel, a limited series podcast where Scott Okamoto

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_06]: and I dive head first into the wild, wild world of evangelical purity culture. In each episode

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_06]: we discuss purity culture in detail, highlighting both its absurdity and the damage caused

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_06]: by an abstinence-only rhetoric. We explore how our AAPI cultural influences, combined with

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_06]: the misogynistic sexual miseducation from the church, led to a unique brand of repression.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_06]: But don't fret dear listener, we also share how we found our way to a sex-positive mindset

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_06]: after breaking free.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Hi, I'm Scott.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And I'm Priska. And this is The Horny Chapel.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not as good as Horny Goats, two Horny Goats, but we'll work on it.

[00:00:59] [SPEAKER_06]: We'll work on it.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_05]: This is a professional outfit we got here.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Sit down in your horny pews, you perverts.

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_05]: So this is episode 2 of our limited series joint venture between chapel probation and

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_05]: two horny goats here to talk about purity culture through a largely Asian American

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_05]: lens.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_06]: Love it. Is there any other way for us to see things?

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_05]: No, they don't sell those kinds of glasses.

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Right?

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_06]: And there's no lacyc.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I think I grew up thinking I was looking through a white lens or hoping I could or at least

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_05]: grow a pair of eyes.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Do you feel that was the whole model minority myth that you were entrenched in?

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, definitely part of that.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And also just being in a white neighborhood and a white school and a mostly white church,

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_05]: I just aspired to fit in.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Just to fit in.

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_06]: No, I think I know what you mean.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like even when I would watch TV shows, I would see myself as the white character.

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, well, that's all we saw.

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't have Keiko Organa on show and we didn't have...

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_06]: It's true.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, we weren't fortunate enough.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I guess I was from a pretty junior high age, I think when Gilmore Girls came out.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I had Long Duck Dong.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And God bless Geddy Watanabe.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Great person.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_05]: But I loved Long Duck Dong because he got the girl.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_05]: So this is on topic really.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_05]: That was about as masculine you could get if you weren't a kung fu master.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, let's be real.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_06]: He was like a low-key slay.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Right?

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Not for representation but looking back, I'm like, you know, from a performance aspect,

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_06]: you're just like, wow, like you were fully realized.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_06]: And you were iconic.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's reclaim Long Duck Dong, you know?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_05]: With an asterisk acknowledging...

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Better than Mickey Rooney.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, yeah.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, with a little asterisk, acknowledging that there's some, you know, some kind of

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_05]: fucked up tropes about Asian male-ness.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, 100%.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, it's not...

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_05]: We shouldn't dismiss it out just completely.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So shout out.

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I mean, I had a friend recently, my friend Kevin Fong, you know, he's

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_06]: kind of a gay influencer in the space.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_06]: And, you know, he was telling me he's like, I am working on retraining my brain

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_06]: because maybe the porn that I watched when I was younger and the hot males that

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_06]: were on TV, they were mostly white and buff and like straight, you know,

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_06]: straight presenting.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_06]: That's who he found attractive.

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_06]: So he over the years and through his content, he's tried to really push

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_06]: hot Asian men.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And he's like, I think we're just doing kind of like a retraining of the

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_06]: algorithm.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Have you heard of Peter Fever?

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_06]: No.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_05]: It's apparently, I was listening to our friend Naomi talk with some other

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_05]: friends and it's like an all gay Asian male porn channel.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Ooh, Peter Fever?

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:04:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Nice.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like...

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Hell yeah, that's representation.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And apparently they're all like, they're like cool too.

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_05]: They're, you know, they're buff.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_05]: They're studly.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_05]: They're not all rice queens and all that trope.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, it's...

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_06]: No, that's great.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean, I feel like I've seen a lot more Asian-American female porn stars

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_06]: but I have not seen a ton of Asian-American males.

[00:04:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Right?

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_06]: And then Asian language porn just doesn't quite do it for me.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_06]: It's just...

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_06]: It's a little...

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_06]: It's great, I'm sure for the right audience but...

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:05:04] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, from Western...

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I'm Japanese-American and I can't do Japanese...

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that baby sound that the women make is just...

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_05]: What?

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Why do you have to...

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I know.

[00:05:16] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm just like, who's making these noises?

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Like, you know, it's great but just culturally it's not the same here.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_05]: A woman can have some nice deep voice when she's talking

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_05]: and then when she's having sex she sounds like a dolphin.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_05]: A baby dolphin.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_05]: It's like, wait...

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_05]: First of all, that's impressive voice control.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Sure, she should go into animation.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Or she could sing Mariah Carey at karaoke.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my gosh, yes.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_06]: But it's not getting you off.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not getting you off.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_06]: That's like...

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_05]: No, it's kind of like nails on a chalkboard.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, a little bit.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Just because like infantilism, is that what it's called?

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Infantilism?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_06]: No, definitely.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Do you have to act like a little girl?

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Like...

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and I feel like it's interesting the crossover of sexual arousal being, you know, culturally

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_06]: taught too.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it makes me wonder about those Japanese folks.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_06]: But I think today one of the main things we do want to talk about is maybe the contrast

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_06]: of being an Asian-American in a white evangelical church against being an Asian-American

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_06]: in an Asian cultural immigrant church.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Because I think Scott, for you and I, our backgrounds are very different in that you primarily being

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_06]: JA, I don't know if this is like directly part of assimilation, but grew up in a white

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_06]: evangelical church and space and I myself, my father's a pastor and an immigrant grew

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_06]: up in a very small Taiwanese-American church, Taiwanese culturally immigrant church.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_06]: And so we have varying experiences, especially when it comes to purity culture.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.

[00:06:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Each one has its own special flavor.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, what was it like for you?

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Growing up in that space, obviously at home, I'm sure sex wasn't really talked about,

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_06]: but at church how did adults refer to or speak about sex?

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, of course it was always in the context of marriage.

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And I grew up six houses up the street from James Dobbson himself.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my God.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_06]: You know I used to listen to him every morning.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, everybody did, right?

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_05]: 7 a.m.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Because so much toxic shit from that man.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_06]: But he had such a comforting voice, which is, you know.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, he sounded like everyone's favorite, you know, grandpa or something.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Uncle, yeah, 100%.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he sounds so friendly and he's saying terrible shit.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_05]: But you know, living down the street from Dobbson and knowing him and his family,

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_05]: that was the gospel.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think it's through that lens that my church, most white middle class churches in America,

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_05]: followed the Dobbson, whatever Dobbson said about family and sex and sexuality and marriage

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_05]: and dating, that was kind of like, that's the blueprint.

[00:08:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Right, right, right.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_06]: And so let's get into more specifics.

[00:08:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Was there, was there often talk about crossing the line or what was too far?

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_06]: And how far is too far a question in Christianity?

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_06]: What did that conversation typically look like?

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Was it a youth pastor speaking in front of a lot of people?

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Was it in Bible studies?

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Was it, you know, did you have to self-report masturbation?

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Like what were some of the things?

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, luckily, you know, on chapel probation, we've heard a lot of stories of people having to confess.

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_05]: How many times they masturbated that week or that day or that hour.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And I wasn't in that kind of situation.

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_05]: It was more like once a year, like the junior high pastor and the high school pastor would do their sex talk.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Uh-huh.

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And making sure you stay pure, checking your mind.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I was just talking to an old friend from high school last week.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And we were reminiscing about the high school pastor every year.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Usually at the beginning of summer did his sex talk and he would use the example of like,

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_05]: when you go to the beach and you have your sunglasses on, you know, and you're checking out the girls in bikinis

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and you know, you can't be, you shouldn't be doing that.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_05]: You should be checking yourselves and.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, projection.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And then the rest of it was.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Literally telling on himself.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_05]: He wore sunglasses so.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Uh-huh.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Two shades too dark if you know what I'm saying.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, got it.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_06]: But he's just kind of like at the beginning of summer.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_06]: He's like, watch yourself, gird your loins.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was all directed at boys.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, we didn't separate boys from girls.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Like a lot of churches did.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_05]: It was just in general and then just vague references to going too far.

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, but did you, I mean, did you even know what that really meant?

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah, we had great imaginations.

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_05]: So.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_05]: We enjoyed talking about what that meant.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_06]: And had you seen images or I know it's a different time, but yeah, there's no internet or videos.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Not a lot.

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Usually it'd be like someone had a VHS from their dad that they would put on or like they're a Playboy magazine.

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, no, I didn't have that in my house, but friends did.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so you'd seen the anatomy.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I got glimpses of female anatomy in the locker room of junior high.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Got it.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Someone had a magazine and was like they're showing it to everybody.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So I was to ask 13 year old Scott like how far is too far?

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_06]: What would you have said at that time?

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I think in our minds it was like anything more than kissing.

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay, so a graze of a boob.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Would you have like, I was personally against it.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I was terrified.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_06]: You were personally against it.

[00:11:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_06]: I would have said.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_06]: You and what army.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_06]: No, okay.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_06]: But did you have like you had a desire to or did you feel pressure to?

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh hell yeah.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I was, yeah.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And were there people at your church talking about losing their virginity?

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, occasionally.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_05]: How was that?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Very rarely it would be someone admitting that they weren't a virgin and it was usually tears

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_05]: and weeping and gnashing of teeth and everyone just being like oh that's so bad you know.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's pray.

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's sing some song.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_06]: Would you, if you would find something like that out would you ever be disappointed in somebody?

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Probably I was of two minds probably like damn.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Lucky.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_05]: But but also damn you know.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_05]: That's terrible.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_05]: That's.

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh a double sided damn.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_05]: And being Asian at this in this space was probably made it made purity easier because

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_05]: it says not that many girls were into me.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_05]: So it wasn't like women are throwing themselves at me and I had to like be so courageous and

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_05]: religious.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And bend them off.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Well talk me through that.

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_06]: That, I understand that you're saying that as your perception of how women felt about

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_06]: you but was that messaging also delivered to you through your male peers?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Sometimes.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Not my close friends.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_05]: But my cult that like the dudes, the popular kids at church were all white.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a click of like the rich kids and some kids from my school and I wasn't part of that.

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I knew I grew up with these guys but I wasn't in their cool group because you know I don't

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_05]: look like I didn't look like them.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And it wasn't like they hated me or they treated me bad or they just ignored me.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_05]: You know it was.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_06]: But isn't that bad treatment?

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not great.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not a bad treatment.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean I saw them pick on people and bully people and they didn't get that.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh I see.

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_05]: So maybe it's worse to be invisible in some ways.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_06]: But you didn't catch too much grief from me.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_06]: No.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Which I guess is more peaceful for you.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Not from people who knew me.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_05]: No I would go to the mall in Arcadia and get ching chonged.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_06]: But were you comparing yourselves to them or was there just like an implicit understanding

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_06]: that you ranked a little lower than them?

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Which side did that come from?

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_05]: It was definitely the implicit understanding that being an Asian male in this space was

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I was never going to be the alpha.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I was never going to be the center of the room.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean even when I figured when I picked up the guitar and started shredding,

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_05]: shredding as a 13 year old could.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_05]: That definitely boosted my status.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_05]: There were girls who were showing interest in me.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Little worship groupies got you.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah it's good to be the worship guitar player.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_05]: No I get it.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Even if you're Asian.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_06]: As a worship groupie myself.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_05]: But it wasn't like it moved the needle all the way.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_05]: It was just like oh there's a couple of girls that are noticing.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_06]: Right.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Well can I ask you though maybe prior to playing the guitar or maybe even after

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_06]: playing the guitar but maybe not getting as much attention as you wanted.

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you feel a certain amount of anger internally?

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Maybe an injustice of like, yeah what did your inner voice sound like on that front?

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah the injustice came later maybe in high school or college.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_05]: In the early days it was just a self loathing.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Self loathing.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I kept asking if I could dye my hair blonde.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Woo.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_05]: It felt like that would make me more white.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so sad.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_05]: You just want to give this kid a hug right?

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_05]: The funny thing is my parents have been cleaning out some stuff and I got some old photo albums

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_05]: of when I was a kid.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I was a cute kid you know.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_05]: It was like oh shit why did I hate the way I looked so much.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And it wasn't that I like it's not like I looked in the mirror and said you know

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_05]: fuck you man I hate you.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_05]: It was just like general feeling of inferiority.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Inferiority.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I would just look at my friends and see like girls fawning after them.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_07]: Right.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And just know that I don't look anything like them so I guess I'm just out of the loop.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_06]: And you understood somewhere that it was because of your Asian-ness?

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah yeah for sure.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_06]: So in your church at that time how would people in the pulpit or Bible study leaders speak about

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Asian countries?

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh there was kind of this magical Asian thing because they would talk about like Chinese

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_05]: churches were huge in China and Korean churches were you know 10,000 strong everyone praising.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_05]: I talked about this with Abe actually.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh okay.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_05]: A couple weeks ago.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And so white pastors.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Just saw the same wavelength as my husband.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah that's.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_06]: What a cute.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah he's adorable.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_06]: I know he's adorable.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_06]: You fell a little bit in love with him right and shameless plug please go listen to that

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_06]: episode of Chapel Probation with my husband Abraham Kim.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah no yeah I saw him through your eyes and yes I felt the love.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Right we get it we get it.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay sorry.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_06]: But hell of a drummer.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_06]: So there was like a hell of a drummer but there was kind of this mystical quality to speaking

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_06]: about Asian Christian specifically.

[00:17:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Christian specifically and only from there.

[00:17:06] [SPEAKER_05]: If you're Asian-American you're not part of that so still it almost reinforced the

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_05]: invisibility of me and some of my Asian-American friends because.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Walk me through that.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah why?

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay so you know like how we had this run in movies like Parasite and TV like

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Squid Game and everyone's talking about oh the Asians have made it and some of us in L.A.

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_05]: were just in America we're like cool but there's those aren't Asian-Americans you know.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Right they're Korean language films.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and great and it's awesome that people in America are recognizing that but it almost

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_05]: made Asian-American actors feel more invisible because they're not from Korea so they don't

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_05]: get to be celebrated for being a foreign film you know it's and it's kind of like that growing

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_05]: up in a white church especially back in the 80s.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_05]: I see.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_05]: When there was no cool.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like okay even if they're lauding certain you know aspects of Asian cultures

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_06]: you're like well this has nothing to do with me really.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly yeah and they didn't see me as that either you know it was just a quiet

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_05]: nerdy kid you know.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Did they really not see you that way or did they.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh no they didn't see me.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Kind of see you that way.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_05]: No no it was somewhere in between right I was kind of foreign and immigrant-ish

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_05]: even though I was a fourth generation American but I wasn't from China you know I wasn't

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_05]: from Korea those are the two they always brought up.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah so Scott for you then were there moments where basically whatever veil that was covering

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_06]: maybe someone's I don't even want to say racist but just like internalized assumptions.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah where those internalized assumptions kind of were accidentally made visible to

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_06]: you.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_06]: Sometimes where there are moments where you were like oh fuck okay they do just see me

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_06]: as the Asian guy.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah it was usually in moments because I wanted to be a leader and I was trying to

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_05]: assert myself into the culture because you know I felt like I have things to say

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_05]: and I'm now playing guitar and it was almost like a resentment you feel when you're

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_05]: an outsider trying to force your way in it took me a while to sort of even gain footing

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_05]: in that and so it was in the eyes of both the leaders the adults and my peers who had

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_05]: this sort of attitude like you know who do you think you are to assert being a male

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_05]: leader in this in this culture and it wasn't anything overt anyone ever said it was

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_05]: more just like this attitude of like okay I guess you can do this you know you can be

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_05]: part of this.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Like did you then in those moments feel like you had to acquiesce to that or be who

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_06]: they wanted or thought you to be?

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and then some I felt like I had to out do everybody I had to be better

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_05]: smarter funnier at work yeah like I often fall back on a sense of humor and it's

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_05]: like a it's almost like a defense mechanism sometimes sure even though I can be

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_05]: charming and funny.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh sort of the beginning of that was kind of the survival to be noticed and to be

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_05]: masculine in that sense.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_06]: But then also in some ways non-threatening.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah absolutely to show that I'm okay I'm one of the I'll make Asian jokes for you

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_05]: before you do.

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah yeah right I'll break that tension in the room by making that joke

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm okay that you're all racist so I'm giving you a license to just be you

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_05]: and I can just I'm cool I can hang.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_06]: So you would self-deprecate?

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah yeah yeah.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Specifically about being Asian.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah I make Asian jokes and I'd make oh and really shitty I made fun of

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_05]: like the immigrant Asians because I wanted to separate myself from them.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah it's totally fucked up.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I see.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah no no no but it's what you felt like you had to do to survive but it's

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_06]: a fucked up thing to have had to do.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and because it was all in the name of you know our topics sex really it

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_05]: just wanting to be a desirable male person in this culture and feeling like

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I had to distance myself from the really uncool immigrants you know uncool quote unquote

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_05]: and not be invisible to the people around me that I grew up with you know.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Right would this would this impact who you allowed yourself to feel attracted to?

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_05]: No I was attracted to anyone who would be nice to me.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay I mean would you ever throttle your interest in somebody because you felt

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_06]: oh she's like she's too attractive and I'm an Asian man and I'm never going to be able to get her?

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Kinda if I was attracted to someone who had a crush on someone I wasn't I never went full court press

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_05]: you know I never I could never do what I saw my friends do and just walk up

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_05]: confidently and say hey what's up you know it was I knew I had to play a little bit longer game of

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_05]: A get noticed see how see how the response is and if it's a negative response fine move on.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah yeah yeah so.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_06]: Well and then I guess just to jump forward to the future I guess and you know not to break anyone's privacy

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_06]: but did a lot of your white male counterparts did they wait for marriage to have sex did they get married?

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_06]: young to have sex or did they kinda what were the paths and the trends?

[00:23:22] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm trying to remember I don't see very many of my church friends but in high school and college

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_05]: I think there was a lot of Bill Clinton sex you know not penis and vagina sex but like everything but

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_05]: everything else.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_07]: And maybe in the back.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And maybe that's like the little loophole there.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_05]: That's like the work around.

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Have you heard of soaking?

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_06]: A lot of Mormon kids do it.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I just that was told to me in an episode of chapel probation actually.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh geez.

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_05]: No wait there's different definitions though so is is are you talking about the one where you insert.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah but you don't move.

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah that's what I'm talking about.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay yeah that's just sounds like torture.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah talk about really like.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's like oh okay I think I heard that it's okay this is where it gets weird.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_06]: Where the male inserts into the vagina and then you have other people jump on the bed or

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_06]: That's the other way to shake the bed yeah to create friction because it's not being

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_06]: self generated by you.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly exactly.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Which makes it a group activity so.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So then it's an orgy right.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_05]: It's something.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_06]: That's just group sex.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_05]: The amount of effort because you gotta find willing people to do who will just jump on the

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_05]: bed for you like.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah that's a good community.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_06]: You know I'm a dog sitter and I've seen dogs you know get a little horned up and

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_06]: when they start humping it's like outside of their own volition sometimes.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah it's just nature.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_06]: So I'm just yeah I feel like if you're in that situation are you gonna tell me that

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_06]: your hips didn't thrust once like that's bullshit.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know there was like an involuntary thrust in there therefore you sin

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_06]: therefore you're going to hell but okay so you didn't necessarily have any

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_06]: overarching trends of people maybe getting married super young or.

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah partly that's because I came up before the 90s purity culture boom when I

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_05]: see I feel like the more Christians pushed back at sex the more it became that

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_05]: issue.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Ah right.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_05]: You know what I'm saying like like the harder you clamp down on kids no sex

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_05]: purity marry your dad for now.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah there's they gave them rings right and went to purity balls together and

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah I think the more you make it taboo and kind of fucked up like that I feel

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_05]: like.

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah that's when you started because that's when I started teaching at APU in

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_05]: the late 90s and their work is getting married after their freshman year or

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_05]: their sophomore year I got invited to a lot of weddings.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh I'm sure I'm sure you've been to so many weddings.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I didn't go to the early ones but yeah so.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah but I guess in addition to that my question I guess more specifically to

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_06]: like my question for you is did it work the way that you know the way that

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_06]: you were the way that you specifically were sexually repressed in a white

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_06]: evangelical church in the 80s you know.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah did it work on the majority of people around you.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_05]: It worked on me because I was a good kid but the friend I was talking to

[00:26:52] [SPEAKER_05]: a couple weeks ago he admitted he's admitted in the past like oh yeah he

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: was fooling around with girls even while he was the they weren't no no fucking

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_05]: but everything else.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay and just butt stuff.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah probably not even that I don't know if they got anyway I don't remember

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_05]: all the details but he was like a worship leader you know he was seen

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_05]: as sort of like one of the heroes of the youth.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and yeah he's white.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah and you know in his mind he felt a little bad and especially on those

[00:27:29] [SPEAKER_05]: days when the pastor would talk about it but he wasn't going to stop.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and me dumb true believer I'm like really just no nothing past kissing

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_05]: with anybody and yeah until I met Jerry in college.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and then it was like yeah I think you learn to teach yourself

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_05]: compartmentalize your faith as well they say as long as you don't feel guilty

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_05]: and you're right with God you can do almost anything and so we did.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_07]: Nice I'm happy for you.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm happy you got through to that.

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I mean I think you're kind of saying and you know there are all these

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_06]: kind of like words that carry a lot of meaning but you're like I was a good

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_06]: kid and I understand that that's like you know inherently who you are

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_06]: and who you were but also is that kind of coded for I was Asian-American too?

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Partly I think as I got older it was less so.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I think especially I think people just got used to seeing me around too and so yeah.

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Did you feel weird when new Asian-Americans would join the church?

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I did in school too especially.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_06]: What was that like?

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_05]: It was like you guys are messing up my thing here.

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_05]: I've worked so hard to be white.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_05]: You're all fucking it up because now I look like you and I'm not you.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_05]: That's what I was thinking to myself and yeah because I knew immigrant kids

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_05]: and these are all from Taiwan mostly in San Gabriel Valley.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh sure sure sure I'm familiar.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and a lot of them became my best friends in high school but early on

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_05]: in like especially junior high those are rough years and it felt threatening.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah threatening and just annoying to me that you know they're messing up.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm working on something here.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah yeah.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_05]: You know that that is a desirable person.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_06]: That's so interesting.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean was there ever and this is just like for my own notification I guess

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_06]: was there ever an Asian-American guy that came that that was that girls

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_06]: were fawning over and did that change your perspective of things?

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_05]: No.

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_05]: That would come later.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_06]: No Henry Golding just like kind of wandering in there just.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Nope.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_06]: Shattering pussies you know.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_05]: So get this and then within a few years after a couple years after graduating college

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I was a middle school teacher in the Bay Area and now we're in like the mid-90s.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Okay.

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_05]: I was teaching at a school that was very diverse and there was this Japanese-American kid

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_05]: who was the heartthrob of the school.

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey now.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_05]: White girls like I had to sit with this blonde hair cheerleader after school

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_05]: while she was sobbing because Ken didn't like her the way she liked him.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh man how did that feel for you?

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_05]: I was crying too but for different reason because it was just like what is happening?

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Like yeah he was so cool you know and and he would walk the halls and everyone's like

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_05]: hey Ken you know he was like the most popular kid in school and then on Halloween

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_05]: he dressed up as a samurai and everyone lost their shit.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_05]: They did like this Halloween like fashion show and he comes out at the end

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_05]: and he's wearing a samurai outfit which actually wasn't even very authentic

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_05]: but hey the place the whole school is screaming and cheering

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_05]: and I just started crying because I wore a samurai outfit when I was in like sixth grade

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_08]: and everyone made fun of me.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_08]: Oh man.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And my own classmates were ching chonging me and making fun of me for looking so

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_07]: Oh Jesus.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_05]: So whatever and and so like it was a moment it was like

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_05]: I think things are getting better for Asian Americans so.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh wow you were like okay I think the tide is turning and I'm seeing it in the schools.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah yeah.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_06]: So did that bring up frustration, anger too though?

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_05]: No um because you know I did okay.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I think yeah I had a lot to be thankful for you know I had pretty girls

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_05]: who had crushes on me and okay you know from junior high through high school

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_05]: I thought they were nuts because I just figured they're the broken ones

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_05]: who could see something in me.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah for sure.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_05]: You know I've kept in touch with the girls that I had dated now women

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_05]: and you know we've talked about this you know in our adult lives

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_05]: yeah and it's been fascinating you know they thought I was cute

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_05]: and I was like really?

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_06]: So I just feel like you absorbed a lot of like obviously you're very very smart

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_06]: and sensitive person so I feel like you absorbed a lot from the men around you

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_06]: more so than even maybe what the women really thought about you or the girls.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and maybe I cared more with the girls than what the men thought.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah but yeah for sure.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_06]: The messaging you're getting is the messaging you're absorbing is mostly from men.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I mean I didn't bring up most of the women would just roll their eyes at me

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_05]: if I talk to them so that was just normal.

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_05]: So anyone that smiled at me was like oh wow I exist you know here I am.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah dang.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah so you know right now everyone's like oh poor Scott that sounds awful.

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_06]: No I mean yeah poor Scott but not in like a pitiful way it's just like damn

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_06]: you were up against a lot and you put up with a lot you know.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah but it's just what you know you know it's I just interviewed someone

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_05]: who was in a really culty situation and I was asking like man that's really fucked up

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_05]: and he was like you know it's when you grew up that way that's just all you know.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah it's just what it is.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Let's talk about you.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_06]: For sure.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_06]: Okay.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Unless you had anything else you wonder.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_06]: No I feel like I have learned a lot from your experience I feel that

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_06]: obviously times have changed but it's just really interesting that you are subjected to a lot of things

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_06]: and I'm sure we could even unpack more deeply just the messaging that you received

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_06]: and like maybe the one-off comments that for lack of a better term like put you in your place.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_06]: Cause right it's like it's like that like you were just saying when you grew up with it

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_06]: and you're inert to it you don't even notice how pervasive it was you know

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_06]: and how much you assumed to be true.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_06]: And how much you might still carry that you know was kind of imparted to you during that time.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah so interestingly in that same photo group of photo albums I just posted a picture of me when I was 18

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_05]: and I'm wearing acid wash jeans and I got this mullet but so many people are saying you look like a model

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_05]: and me I'm like what?

[00:35:09] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_05]: You know I look younger and you know and you know whole life ahead of you kind of confidence that you have when you're 18

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I see that.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_05]: But like hearing people say like wow you look like a model I'm like wow cause I didn't see that at all when

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_06]: No and honestly I feel like culturally the culture was not ready to see that as hot yet.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_06]: You know I think now I mean maybe you know but I think nowadays like now that we've retrained kind of preferences

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_06]: through representation you know both of Asians and Asian-Americans you know.

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_06]: BTS man.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Slowly chipping away.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah BTS, Henry Golding you know I don't even see Mulu like you know we'll give it to them

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_06]: it's like they're slowly changing the possibility of what.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah the visibility and desirability of Asian men for sure.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah but.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_05]: So.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah that's so okay last question just to wrap it up.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_06]: So now when you walk into white spaces like you know sometimes you go to conferences where it's mostly white evangelicals that you're talking to.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_06]: What is that like for you now?

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_06]: What does it trigger?

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_06]: What does it bring up?

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I have to be careful I have a rule and I think I mentioned this in the last episode.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_05]: I have a rule that I don't I try not to allow myself to be the only Asian in the room.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Because I will revert back to that 12 year old kid who just goes to this corner and sits and observes.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_08]: Mmm.

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And so I'm aware of it you know I'll walk into a room and just sort of vibe check you know like.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_05]: Do people see me?

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_05]: It's fine if I know everyone or they know me.

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah if I walk cold into a room.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a lot of things clicking upstairs where I'm like where am I going to land on the hierarchy of this room?

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_07]: Right right right right right right.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_06]: That's tough to constantly fight that in yourself.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah it can be.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Again it's just sort of what I do is what I know.

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_11]: Don't cause him to stumble.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_11]: You might miss the rapture.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for listening to this podcast from the Dauntless Media Collective.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_01]: If you enjoy what you're hearing we think you'll also enjoy some of our other shows which you can find by visiting dauntless.fm.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Here's a sample from one of them.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello deconstructionists this is Maggie the host of our podcast where we'll collectively share our stories and experiences of leaving high control religion along with what it's been like for us to find new practices that help us feel good and confident in ourselves.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope that hearing these stories reminds you that your deconstruction is valid and most of all that you are not alone on this journey.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You are good, you are loved and you are worthy just as you are.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello deconstructionists.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Alright so let's talk about growing up not just in it in a mostly immigrant Taiwanese setting but with your dad as the pastor.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So you all learned I'm sure about the Kamasutra and you learned about Song of Solomon, did some manuscript studies.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Your neck is a tower.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_06]: No, yeah I would say you know I think being Taiwanese American slash Chinese American there I think just in general there's not a lot of talk about sex.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_06]: Like there's not even really jokes made.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_06]: There's not really at least in my family like we were very just like I don't know everything was just very pretty happy go lucky but you just never got into anything too detailed or too deep.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Was there the talk?

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you have the talk?

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_06]: So I think what was interesting when you were talking was I realized that our church had to use white evangelical tools to try and educate the kids at our church because it just wasn't a topic that was very easily talked about by the adults.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_06]: So I mean obviously there was a lot of gender separation.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_06]: There was a lot of talk about not being alone.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I myself was not allowed to have any males in my bedroom and even my cousin, even you know when we were like 11 12, even into high school like he was not allowed to be in any of our bedrooms without the door closed which you know but I but it was never discussed why it was just kind of placed on.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_06]: So again a lot of what I know I cannot fully separate this was because of religion and this was because of culture.

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_06]: Because the two were so deeply intertwined.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_06]: But did I get the talk kind of from your mom or dad my my mom definitely not my dad, but my mom I think was pretty good.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel like where she was kind of progressive what she was okay talking about like the anatomical form, like she was okay talking about like what body parts you have like the uterus, the you know the different holes you have as a girl.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_06]: You know what what your period is why it's doing that like very little I guess about the male anatomy and genitalia.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you know what did you know what men look like the same question you asked me.

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_06]: I did not.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_06]: I had seen I had seen a penis like, but only like you know your kids and like you said like the locker room kind of situation like I'd seen it but I didn't.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't understand like how it worked or that it could become engorged, but in a very like I went to a Christian church as a Christian school as well, which was also very Asian American, although it was run by mostly white folks.

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And we did have like a gym assembly where it was like one of those old projector turntables with like slides I guess.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And so they did have an anatomical rendering of a penis like the internal drawing, but it was not like a like a like a scientific drawing with all the glands and the, you know, but but it's so removed from reality that I think when I did see my first

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_06]: engorged penis it was like, it was it was shocking because I didn't even watch porn before I had like any sexual experiences you know so yeah.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_06]: So that there was the talk in some way shape and form but it was very vague. And then later, when I was more so in high school, like I said like our church used white evangelical tools to kind of you know educate their youth.

[00:42:37] [SPEAKER_06]: We would watch these DVD series. I don't even know what the woman's name is she had like a very 90s haircut, but it was just it was basically an evangelical purity culture lecture over three or four hours so we would all get together and we would watch those DVDs and then

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_06]: like kind of discuss it but it was in the vein of slut shaming it was in the vein of you know yelling at you to get impure thoughts out of your head it was in the vein of here's a piece of duct tape.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm going to stick to myself when I rip it off it's not going to stick as well like that's why you know it was in that kind of tape and sex are so similar.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_05]: They're the same. Really. Genius. Yeah. I'll give props that they actually acknowledge that women had sex drive sex thoughts because some places women didn't even get that you know it was just assumed.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah. And if you do your fucked up and you're perverted but like men it's all about the men men and their penises men in their urges.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, it was definitely a lot of like for my dad he it was a lot of like modesty. Yeah, like be modest otherwise you'll be tempting men like if I couldn't wear shorts I couldn't wear sandals I couldn't wear you know tops that didn't have a sleeve like there was a lot of that like inherent fear of men are

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_06]: uncontrollable. Yeah. So outside of these DVDs which were again you know white evangelical people running sex was never talked about but it was always inferred and it was always the woman's responsibility not to because yeah definitely like yeah

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_05]: like they have urges on you it's your fault exactly but it was but sex was just never spoken about. Yeah. But it was almost like a boogeyman they established that's out there right you're not going to describe it or name it and claim it they're

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_05]: modest. Yeah, so nothing visible here. All good. We'll record naked next time but yeah, yeah the it's they established this boogeyman that's out there just gonna get you if you don't do these things right if you don't dress modestly if you

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_06]: don't keep your thoughts pure. So yeah, but I do think like if we're talking about you know cultural impact versus religious impact or in conjunction with religious impact. I do feel that in some way there was double shame and maybe

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_06]: double repression where I think Chinese culture leaned into you know the kind of it's not only that you would be sinning and that you would be in danger of hell that goes you know kind of without saying but also if you let your family down then you're you know violating

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_06]: your family's name you're violating some form of filial piety like you know you are shaming your your lineage basically so there's that like added kind of yeah double shame factor in there and I even think as I'm thinking about it.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_06]: There was also the boogeyman of getting pregnant right like and of that ruining your education and your career options which is very cultural. Yeah, that would mess up the tiger mom tiger dad situation because exactly.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, it's fascinating how Chinese and Taiwanese culture is quite puritanical in its in and of itself. Yeah.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_05]: One of my former students Eugene he has an episode in season two. He was talking about coming out which you couldn't to his family and his family wasn't even Christian. It's just that.

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_05]: In your Chinese you're not you can't be gay at least in his family. I don't know if that's universal but.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, and I guess that's also what's interesting and I think it's almost similar to cuisine a lot of cuisine. Let's like let's just say Taiwanese cuisine a lot of cuisine came over in this in the 80s in the 90s you know and it kind of frozen time and now if you go to Taiwan there's a the bevy of different options

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_06]: especially in street food and what's commonly you know eating on the streets but that evolution has not really happened with the food in the states because it kind of was 80s food or 90s food and got frozen in time.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Now are there like you know little places that have come and updated things sure but for the majority a lot of things come here and they get frozen in time and I do think now Taiwan is like one of the first like you know openly like they're open to gay people.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Getting getting married is is legal. They're you know big on allyship and they have a big pride parade but that has been things that have moved over the past 3040 50 years that say like my parents generation did not benefit from I would say but did not experience before coming to the state so they are still in a very like locked into that maybe Chinese or then like later Taiwanese symbol of modesty.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_06]: And living in that kind of very more with more constraints.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Fascinating. Yeah nice analogy there with the food that's so true.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_05]: So how did you get an education and sex and sexuality coming out of this space.

[00:48:44] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah good question. I think that.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I think I was tired of being the kid who didn't know anything like you know I was trying to like I was also very awkward and not very comfortable in school spaces but I was tired of being that weird like pastors kid that didn't know anything that couldn't laugh at the jokes.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_06]: That didn't understand the double entendre like you know I was frustrated by that and so I think that maybe I want to say the scholarly side of me was like I'm going to do something about this you know and obviously I was horny I was I felt a lot of sexual desire but I was so afraid to share space with any males you know.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_06]: So I would I had a lot of fear but I wanted to at least gain more knowledge.

[00:49:41] [SPEAKER_06]: So my you know library of choice was Cosmopolitan magazines.

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah a lot of advice in there.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Great advice.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean we joke but at least it was spoken about in positive ways pretty frank ways yeah pretty possex positive ways and obviously very heteronormative.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_06]: Like what can you do to get them off like what can you do to turn them on like what can you know it was like obviously the onus of being sexually you know desirable was like on the woman mostly but it was I would buy them and hide them in my room and and and pour over them.

[00:50:20] [SPEAKER_06]: I have seen people just flip their magazines.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_06]: This was never my experience because it was always from you know just a very from a lack mindset.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_06]: So I would read every single every single word in that magazine including all the like weird ads at the end.

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_05]: In the margins did you circle things.

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_06]: I didn't take notes necessarily but maybe I would write about things in my journal or you know but it was mostly I didn't want to paper trail really.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_06]: I would like try to discard them before anything could be found out so a lot of it had to be just recorded in my brain similar to the Chinese church where they had to memorize chapters of the Bible so that they could I'm just kidding.

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_06]: It's not the same but you know it was yeah it was illegal text in my household for sure and I would read books where I would just pour over the sex scenes and like just try to figure out like what it was because I think the problem with you know

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_06]: this double repression and this kind of boogeyman aspect to things is you don't know what you don't know.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_06]: And so then your curiosity I think as human beings you're naturally curious you're just like curious about this kind of the kind of disparity between well once you're married and it's fine and if you're not married it's literally going to send you to hell like you're curious about that gap it becomes very elusive you know.

[00:51:46] [SPEAKER_06]: And I think once I got to college I became a film and media studies major.

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_06]: I think that's really where things broke open.

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_06]: I got one of these unlimited blockbuster memberships.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_06]: $30 a month for unlimited DVD rentals you just had to go into at a time.

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I think that's really when I got both my cultural kind of update because I was so sheltered like so sheltered like as a kid.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_06]: I mostly watched a show called Quigley's Village like I don't even know if anyone knows about that because it was just so Christian anyhow I was just so outside of the culture there were so many things that I didn't know.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_06]: And so I took it upon myself to catch up so I watched you know a lot of nip tuck which if you're looking for sex like that's basically porn.

[00:52:37] [SPEAKER_06]: It was it was great.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_06]: I just watched all the movies I'd missed in the 80s and 90s I watched you know I just I became a scholar to get myself caught up.

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_06]: And and I think that I don't really know if it was good or if it was bad but even with knowledge I was still very afraid.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_06]: I was still very very very afraid to actually be touched to actually be approached.

[00:53:06] [SPEAKER_06]: I would like literally there's been a few occasions in my early 20s or really in college where I've run away from a situation because I just similar to your party.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_06]: I just wasn't ready.

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, I would just it was like fight or flight.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_06]: I'm always going to fly like I would just run away from a situation so that took a really long time to undo so I would I would categorize that as damage but I'm still a pastor's kid.

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_06]: And so you know our reputation.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_06]: I think once I broke the barrier kind of like what you're saying with you and Jerry like once I broke that barrier and did have sexual experiences we were off to the races like there was nothing that was going to stop me from that point.

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Woo hoo.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, that's yeah.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_05]: The body is a temple.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everyone.

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm Maggie from the Hello Deconstructionists podcast.

[00:54:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for tuning into this show.

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_00]: We're so grateful that you decided to spend your time with us.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously, Cortland Dan Gale Jessica Megan Nate Scott and the rest of us here at the Dauntless Media Collective couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without your support.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation right now there are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective Discord server.

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: If you're interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing the oppressive traditions they came from, please feel free to stop by the server.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: If you don't know what Discord is, it's a place where communities can gather online for chatting on a wide variety of topics.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_00]: In our Discord server we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations, some meme sharing, therapeutic venting about whatever religious bulls*** you're currently dealing with

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_00]: and even a specific channel devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the podcast you're listening to right now.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I hope you'll join us. You can log in directly to the Dauntless server by clicking the link in the show notes or heading to Dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top banner. See you there.

[00:55:22] [SPEAKER_05]: So there are some similarities and some differences but like yeah there's a lot of universal truth in what we're sharing.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And I think it's not just limited to Asian Americans too but a lot of it is the cultural stuff.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I think any immigrant church setting is going to reflect the culture that it is instamped with you know.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_06]: So obviously I feel that for our church it was a boogeyman, it was about modesty but even for my husband Abe like he grew up in the Korean American church

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_06]: and there's a lot of contrast there in terms of I was telling Scott you know right when someone gets married you can make all these sexual jokes.

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_06]: So and there's a lot of like homoerotic humor, there's just a lot of very direct sexual humor but only in the context of marriage.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_06]: And then prior to that I think because you know the Korean cultural, the aspect in which like everything has to be about suffering you know even like a concept like Han.

[00:57:02] [SPEAKER_06]: I was going to say.

[00:57:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And then there's a lot of similarities. Maybe one of the less effective because it causes you to split your persona into you know a good version and like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde situation.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_06]: And I just remember being at a church that Abe was at and the lead pastor this was technically like a second generation church but it was still Korean.

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_06]: You know it was just like you know the pastor was just talking about how you know abortion and just he's like as a church I'm saying it we don't condone abortion you know he was like we are pro life and anyone who has done whatever we're doing.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_06]: You know you know we're in the past like you still need to repent and you just see all these like Gen X maybe like older millennial women from who were like K town hood rats breaking down on the floor crying.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_06]: And these are women with like two three kids there they've been married for years but this kind of messaging you know I was just like heartbroken because it was so it was so emblematic of how they like the messaging that they received growing up and like maybe how it split them into a good self and a bad self for lack of a you know more subtle kind of.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah bifurcation but.

[00:58:35] [SPEAKER_06]: It was it was it's so deeply cultural you know.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's not that you know a white evangelical church wouldn't shame women for getting abortions but in this very specific way.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_06]: You know in this like it is like a fire and brimstone type of messaging but it is it is pointed to Korean and Korean Americans that grew up in immigrant churches and it was just like remarkable to see.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And Abe and I talked about in his episode how there's there's I feel like the Koreans do their guilt and shame really well as you mentioned.

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh they also party really hard.

[00:59:16] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_05]: The comedian great name Paul Paul Kim.

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_05]: So good because he is a PK and he's a PK.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_05]: He used to do these bits about like the Koreans showing up on Sunday still in their club clothes from the night before smelling of alcohol and weed you know but they're there and they're praying and they're saying that that's out but the night before who know they've been doing everything you know.

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_06]: I mean it's kind of like the prohibition era.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_06]: I know we joke about Korean and Korean culture but I think any any time you you severely repress people then you run the this is the risk you run you know.

[00:59:58] [SPEAKER_06]: And and often it's the opposite outcome from what you desired because humans are humans you know so it's not like individual fault but it is it's interesting that as a culture they're so.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_06]: Repressive that then you have this cultural kind of counterpoint that arises very commonly.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh yeah.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_06]: So I know we wanted to also then kind of just touch on briefly about then and I kind of referred to it as like the second generational church but really.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_06]: I feel now there's been a rise in just Asian American churches.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_06]: And and I would say that they would call themselves multicultural but usually it is a mix of of like some Chinese some Japanese some Korean some Filipino and then and then a couple white folks and like you know black and brown folks in or first so what's your experience with that just so we can contextualize our listeners.

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah.

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_05]: So I won't name the names because these people are still out there.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Or we can maybe if I say good things all name names but there's a there's a there's a big Asian American church here in Southern California there's a few.

[01:01:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And so just from my point of view I never wanted to go because I felt like I was in the big leagues at the white church you know and.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Building bridges I told myself and and you know promoting the king the real kingdom of heaven which is you know all people.

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Whatever.

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah so these churches tend to focus on the big three of Japanese Chinese Korean maybe but like you said they accept everyone and they tend toward the more fundamentalist conservative side especially culturally.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Especially the patriarchy part.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'll say two things.

[01:02:02] [SPEAKER_05]: What I don't know if you're old enough to remember the promise keepers in the 90s.

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_05]: That move.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Reclaiming the family and re-serting themselves.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_05]: The household shit like that.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_06]: It definitely rings a bell as you know I was a James Dobbs and Diva.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah so it was this in that that universe.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_05]: So promise keepers start out as like a all white dude thing and they were getting criticism even in the 90s for it.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And so they started reaching out to all the pastors of color in the United States.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_05]: And to their credit this church that I'm talking about before they had split off into multiple groups said no they basically said fuck you and you know just we're not going to be your tokens to further your cause.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_05]: So there is a sense of pride in being Asian-American at these churches that I really respect.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_05]: They're really trying to carve out a space for Asian-Americans to have this basically white Christianity but more on their terms.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'll give them that.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: The problem I always had was the patriarchy part.

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_05]: And one group split off to be more progressive.

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_05]: And one group split off to be more like yeah not progressive like I see like keep the women in their place kind of situation.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah.

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'm not sure.

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_05]: I think there's a lot of lot to do with like the incarceration camps of World War Two and this sort of like need to play it safe for a lot of Asian-Americans you know to be good Americans is to be good Christian and to be good Christian is to be pure.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think a lot of Asian-American churches have really taken that to heart.

[01:03:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Now there's wonderful exceptions.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_05]: The church in little Tokyo on on 3rd Street.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_05]: I forget what it's called.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_05]: That's a really progressive church.

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_05]: So that's a fully Asian-American church fully affirming women women pastors you know the whole thing.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I really respect them.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_05]: This other group not so much.

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'll just close with this anecdote.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_05]: My optometrist he's old.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_05]: He's about my parents age.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_05]: He's looking at my eyes through the scope thing and you know our faces are like inches apart and he's like hey Scott you're religious right.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And at the time I wasn't so I was like well I used to be.

[01:04:40] [SPEAKER_05]: My daughter goes to this church and he named the one that had broken off from this big church.

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh to the more conservative.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_05]: She's married with kids.

[01:04:49] [SPEAKER_05]: She's an optometrist too.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_05]: But her husband only allowed her to work one day a week because.

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_05]: It wasn't right that she was make more money than him a and she her job was to stay home with the kids.

[01:05:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Not only that he said he's like is my daughter in a cult.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like yeah I think he's like I asked her to bring the kids over this weekend.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_05]: And instead of just saying yeah we'll come over she said yeah I just have to check with my husband first.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh geez.

[01:05:25] [SPEAKER_05]: She's like she can't even just bring the my grandkids over to see us without checking with her husband.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_05]: He's like he and his wife are really concerned.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And I was like I'm sorry that's that's sort of how that church operates.

[01:05:38] [SPEAKER_05]: And so think of all the shitty patriarchy that is being indoctrinated into those not just this family but those kids.

[01:05:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah well question for you where exactly.

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_06]: Is that idea of patriarchy coming from is it cultural is it preferential like what do you think it is.

[01:06:01] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like it plays into the culture for sure.

[01:06:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Like the marriage of fundamentals Christianity and very traditionally say Japanese or Chinese.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_05]: I think most of these churches are Japanese and Chinese.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: To your earlier point I think that's a they play well together right.

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_05]: They go well to reinforce one another.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah and then the funny thing is like they're also very like capitalistic.

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_05]: My friend said he was he's going to have a friend who goes there to one of these churches the conservative one.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And when he was proposing to his now wife he said so the rule is you have to spend three months salary on the ring.

[01:06:48] [SPEAKER_05]: And I knew how much right guy was making which is quite a bit and I like that's that's like what are you going to buy like a 12 carat ring like.

[01:06:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah he's like but that's the rule.

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm like well who's rule and that's what everyone follows and so it's like this.

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_05]: They're real strict on men's roles you know the term complementarianism in in versus egalitarianism.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[01:07:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_05]: So each men and women each have their own specific lanes that they cannot deviate from in this culture.

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_05]: And it all the man leads everything.

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And so it just sounds really awful to me.

[01:07:30] [SPEAKER_05]: But and I'm not saying again not all Asian American churches this way but but to your earlier point about your church experience.

[01:07:36] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like Asian culture is a perfect marriage informing yeah with this fundamentalist very patriarchal Christianity.

[01:07:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Right well and I think like I think it's so interesting that all these like very extreme kind of branches end up forming because I think my experience you know going to an Asian American church mostly through my college years and then my you know mid 20s.

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_06]: It's like you get all these people from slightly different backgrounds slightly different churches which is so great because we all have similar experiences of feeling maybe you know you know made small or maybe not attractive or whatever it was like we all these similar

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_06]: experiences. However we have very different both religious and cultural backgrounds. And so I think I think what I saw was kind of this this very big mixing pot mixing pot of different cultures and nobody's ever really happy.

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Some people are more conservative some people are more progressive some people are wanting you know you know more in depth Bible studies some people want better video you know AV whatever you

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_06]: want. So you yeah exactly you get this like weird amalgamation of people and I think that sometimes it can all crystallize as being as is landing on the side of really really really conservative and sometimes it can land on being more

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_06]: progressive. But I almost feel and maybe this is like me being like God like I don't want it hot I don't want it cold like you know but if you're like I mean it's okay if it's cold yeah but if it's lukewarm I'm spitting you the fuck out you know.

[01:09:21] [SPEAKER_06]: But I've seen and I think to your point about it being more of a capitalistic thing I think there's a lot of incentive for Asian marriage Asian American church leaders to just all be about grow grow grow all be about data.

[01:09:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And I have also seen this kind of like third category I would say in what we're talking about of pastors that don't want to make a call either way because they just want butts in seats like they want to appeal to as many people as possible.

[01:09:50] [SPEAKER_06]: So they won't say anything really to progressive or to conservative. However they might say not officiate a gay wedding. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of stories because they don't want to upset yet you know what I'm saying so then I'm almost like that's even and I've seen this in

[01:10:09] [SPEAKER_06]: you know firsthand of this I kind of more watered down feel good church which is like you know it's fine I mean that they exist but I almost like grapple and and and wrestle with being upset about the.

[01:10:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah the lukewarm kind of approach. Yeah she was she.

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_06]: Wish she was she yeah and it's all for for just data. It's all for for getting more people in the church and it's a marketing ploy you know it and it's kind of it's kind of gross in that way in the way that target is trying to get more foot traffic these churches are applying very similar tactics.

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I totally see that.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh and I forgot to mention that.

[01:10:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Well I'll put it in the show notes but there was a there was a story that I think Lisa Ling did it about Korean churches going back to the immigrant thing really fucked up shit about how domestic violence was being not just overlooked but like blamed on women and they had to have to send people

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_05]: in to teach Korean and Korean American pastors to not do that.

[01:11:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[01:11:27] [SPEAKER_05]: It's bad and it's not the woman's fault right and this was cultural you know yeah and so sometimes culture can bring some really wonderful things to to a faith and yeah things like sex and sexuality but in some sometimes there's a dark side too.

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh 100% and I think that's something we can cover in a future topic just because that's it's basically just misogyny.

[01:11:54] [SPEAKER_06]: That's you know not even just patriarchy but but actual misogyny.

[01:11:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah for sure.

[01:12:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Fuck well I guess in conclusion I would be very curious and I I'm glad I don't know but I kind of wish I could know more about in these kind of like third wave Asian American churches.

[01:12:14] [SPEAKER_06]: Because how sex is being talked about how it's being taught and what messaging people 12 to 15 year old are receiving at this point.

[01:12:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah I'm laughing because yeah same I feel the same like ooh that would be nice to know like oh shit do we really want to know right.

[01:12:31] [SPEAKER_05]: I can only imagine the fucked up shit they're telling kids about about their bodies about their gender about their identities.

[01:12:41] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I think I was telling you about my nephews eighth grade graduation two years ago the or actually fuck just a year ago Jesus well I literally had to like block it out of my head but the lead pastor.

[01:12:53] [SPEAKER_06]: Literally in his opening remarks was you know this is a small Christian school in CME Valley.

[01:13:00] [SPEAKER_06]: He was just railing against pride paraphernalia being at Target and how dangerous low hanging conservative.

[01:13:08] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah but I'm sitting there and I'm like oh my because I haven't been in this setting in so long and I know but I don't I guess I know it's an issue that's a hot button topic.

[01:13:23] [SPEAKER_06]: On all sides news.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah on all sides but I just when it was happening at me I was like oh my god I forgot what it was like I forgot I really did forget what it was like to be sat in the room like that.

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_06]: And then to see these like 13 14 year olds who are so impressionable.

[01:13:41] [SPEAKER_06]: I just felt like fear in my heart you know I was like I oh my god this is so bad this is so like formative but fortunately our nephew came up to us after and he was like that was kind of weird right and we're like oh thank god like there's hope for the next generation.

[01:13:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah because the good side of social media is sharing of information you know and so he can he can see that side of it but he can also see the other side of.

[01:14:08] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a reason to hate Target for a lot for pandering but like yeah.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah that's a hard one.

[01:14:16] [SPEAKER_05]: I just don't I also want to shout out Ken Fong and it wasn't going to name names but I feel like what I'm wrong was on a journey out of this period called your mindset and became an affirming pastor at the end of his days as a pastor official pastor had lost like half of his congregation because of it.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Seriously.

[01:14:38] [SPEAKER_07]: Wow.

[01:14:39] [SPEAKER_05]: So to your earlier point you know like it's dangerous to make to make a stand for something you believe in.

[01:14:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and yeah he posts about his daughter so I'm not saying anything that he doesn't already post about who's who identifies as by and he's so proud of her and so supportive of her and you know this is someone that came out of a fundamentalist framework.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_05]: He's upbringing and training and but evolved and became affirming which which cost him dearly.

[01:15:13] [SPEAKER_05]: In his position.

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_05]: He followed his convictions and I you know I'm not a Christian anymore but I would I totally respect people like like Ken Fong and he has a podcast called Asian America.

[01:15:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And it has like 450 episodes like he's been doing it for like 10 years.

[01:15:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Holy moly.

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:15:34] [SPEAKER_06]: He's what we would call prolific.

[01:15:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah yeah I was on it a couple years ago.

[01:15:40] [SPEAKER_06]: Let's check out the episode with Scott and Ken Fong.

[01:15:43] [SPEAKER_05]: We didn't talk about sex but like we are sexuality but we talked about everything else but yeah so I know I tend to come across as very critical of the church especially Asian American churches but I sure and there's I feel like that's warranted in many cases but I do want to make sure we shout out

[01:16:01] [SPEAKER_05]: positive things that are happening in those spaces.

[01:16:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah because it's easy to kind of call out the extreme negatives but it's it's it's like it's hard to be morally and ethically you know kind of conflicted and working through a lot of those things and still still having to lead your congregants and like just kind

[01:16:25] [SPEAKER_06]: of mired in the mud of you know what truth is and still try to make a call that will like challenge or threaten your livelihood.

[01:16:36] [SPEAKER_06]: So for him to do that is is pretty remarkable and and yeah we love the kens of the world for sure he is enough.

[01:16:47] [SPEAKER_10]: Sorry just a year of joke.

[01:16:52] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I'm not over barbenheimer.

[01:16:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah all right well I think we figured it all out.

[01:17:01] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I think we fixed it.

[01:17:03] [SPEAKER_05]: What else is there?

[01:17:05] [SPEAKER_06]: I don't know much else but I guess we could close by okay I feel like let's and maybe not last names but share the name of one of your church churches.

[01:17:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh yeah I was gonna ask you about that too like remember camp.

[01:17:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah summer camp you have crushes.

[01:17:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh do I ever yeah.

[01:17:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Barbara maybe you don't even have to say the name.

[01:17:34] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh okay ooh Barbara hey what was it about Barbara what did it for you did she see it sing amazing grace with just that timbre.

[01:17:44] [SPEAKER_05]: No I don't think she could sing actually which was rare for me I usually was attracted to the singers but um she was just you know universally beautiful older.

[01:17:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah and oh older.

[01:18:00] [SPEAKER_05]: She told me I was cute and it was just like having an older like she was like a senior I was like a sophomore junior and at one of these camps and it was just like walking on cloud nine.

[01:18:18] [SPEAKER_05]: There's a picture I have a picture of they I forget what we were doing they threw a bunch of people in this big like bin like this big trash can thing like a clean one.

[01:18:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And I got thrown in with her and she's like holding me and someone took a picture and man I treasured that picture for.

[01:18:39] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh man it would just give you the funny feelings anytime you looked at it.

[01:18:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah yeah interestingly the the the the dundam to that story is when we were having our second or third kid.

[01:18:53] [SPEAKER_05]: She was like one of the nurses in the in the hospital.

[01:18:57] [SPEAKER_06]: Stop.

[01:19:00] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh my God you're like that's so funny that you're here look at this photo.

[01:19:05] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh that's kind of sweet that's kind of full circle.

[01:19:10] [SPEAKER_06]: Mine is his name was Anthony he was my first church crush how old we and we would pick him up I was how old was I 10 to 12 yeah he was a little older like two years older than me.

[01:19:27] [SPEAKER_06]: Yeah I think it was like for two years or so 10 to 12 maybe 13.

[01:19:34] [SPEAKER_06]: But yeah we would like pick him up every week from church you know from his house to go to church so hot and I would have to call everyone every week to be like hi it's Thursday don't forget you have to go to church for Jesus on Friday that was my job as pastors kids so calling

[01:19:52] [SPEAKER_06]: him was always a thrill yeah well my mom decided it was but you like calling him.

[01:20:00] [SPEAKER_06]: I loved calling him and honestly let's be honest it's why I have a podcast because I learned how to talk to the people you know but I had been calling people to go to church since I was maybe five years old.

[01:20:12] [SPEAKER_06]: I know I was being used but you know I would just get a particular thrill calling him every week and I guess if we're just being a little TMI we would play basketball out at the church court and one day he accidentally I would play too you know I wasn't just watching I wasn't just a passive participant you know but he left his button up shirt on the

[01:20:41] [SPEAKER_06]: week and I sniffed it every day.

[01:20:44] [SPEAKER_05]: That's adorable cool.

[01:20:48] [SPEAKER_06]: It's fucking creepy Scott.

[01:20:52] [SPEAKER_06]: No judgment.

[01:20:53] [SPEAKER_06]: It's low key creepy it smelled fully like I was gonna say it probably smelled of cologne or something given the yeah yeah exactly.

[01:21:04] [SPEAKER_06]: Exactly yeah he did have a middle part and to this day when you smell your right transported back to that basketball court.

[01:21:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Exactly and shout out to Anthony I mean you might we might not be recording right now if not for him.

[01:21:21] [SPEAKER_06]: There you go there you go it taught me to face my fear and speak to people whoever they are.

[01:21:28] [SPEAKER_06]: Well this was another really fun episode of horny chapel or should we say session of horny chapel.

[01:21:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah session episode.

[01:21:38] [SPEAKER_06]: And it's fitting that we're recording on a Thursday because my school chapel was.

[01:21:43] [SPEAKER_06]: Oh aligned.

[01:21:46] [SPEAKER_05]: All right well we won't close in prayer.

[01:21:49] [SPEAKER_06]: Dang it.

[01:21:51] [SPEAKER_05]: We'll play out a song that we have.

[01:21:55] [SPEAKER_06]: Perfect.

[01:21:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah we will see you all next time.

[01:22:00] [SPEAKER_06]: See you all next time. Stay horny.

[01:22:30] [SPEAKER_09]: Yes.

[01:22:41] [SPEAKER_09]: Touch that.

[01:22:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Touch it.

[01:22:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't touch it.

[01:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Don't, don't, don't touch it

[01:22:58] [SPEAKER_09]: Put on your bestie and your cafe skirt

[01:23:03] [SPEAKER_09]: Sit up straight and try not to blur

[01:23:08] [SPEAKER_09]: All your dirty little thoughts hide the purest-eyed flirts

[01:23:15] [SPEAKER_09]: True love waits, fuckin' ain't worth a hurt

[01:23:19] [SPEAKER_09]: Don't hurt, born in chapel

[01:23:26] [SPEAKER_09]: Born in this sub-chapel

[01:23:32] [SPEAKER_09]: Born in chapel

[01:23:37] [SPEAKER_09]: Don't you dare touch that penis

[01:23:42] [SPEAKER_09]: Don't touch that penis

[01:23:45] [SPEAKER_11]: Don't cause a storm, but it tastes so good

[01:23:49] [SPEAKER_11]: Feel so odd, burning brightness

[01:23:52] [SPEAKER_11]: The rapture tastes so good

[01:23:54] [SPEAKER_11]: Feel so odd

[01:23:56] [SPEAKER_11]: Don't cause a storm, but it tastes so good

[01:24:02] [SPEAKER_11]: Saying Peter won't catch you

[01:24:05] [SPEAKER_11]: It tastes so good

[01:24:06] [SPEAKER_11]: Feel so odd

[01:24:08] [SPEAKER_11]: Your body is a temple

[01:24:11] [SPEAKER_10]: Your body is a temple

[01:24:14] [SPEAKER_10]: Your body is a TEMPLE

[01:24:17] [SPEAKER_10]: Your body is a temple

[01:24:20] [SPEAKER_10]: Your body is a temple

[01:24:23] [SPEAKER_10]: Don't ев honestly create the temple

[01:24:26] [SPEAKER_10]: or it's heaven in the temple

[01:24:29] [SPEAKER_10]: Your body is a temple