The Horny Chapel Episode 1

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[00:00:08] Then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smacked one night and then she seeks help from the church.

[00:00:17] There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus and by God's grace it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.

[00:00:24] You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus. Those are the options.

[00:00:27] There's nothing holy about writing discrimination into the law and I am tired of communities of faith being weaponized because the only time religious freedom is invoked is in the name of bigotry and discrimination. I'm tired of it.

[00:00:45] Hi, I'm Nate, producer and co-host on the Full Mutuality podcast.

[00:00:50] Let's talk about inequality.

[00:00:51] It's everywhere. Whether it's rooted in race, gender, ability or sexuality, there's bound to be an imbalance in power, influence, representation and access.

[00:01:01] On our show, we want to explore areas of religion, culture and society where justice is needed in order to bring about true mutuality.

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[00:01:32] I'm Prisca and I'm here to put a new podcast on your radar.

[00:01:44] Welcome to The Horny Chapel, a limited series podcast where Scott Okamoto and I dive headfirst into the wild, wild world of evangelical purity culture.

[00:01:54] In each episode, we discuss purity culture in detail, highlighting both its absurdity and the damage caused by an abstinence-only rhetoric.

[00:02:02] We explore how our AAPI cultural influences, combined with the misogynistic sexual miseducation from the church, led to a unique brand of repression.

[00:02:11] But don't fret, dear listener.

[00:02:13] We also share how we found our way to a sex-positive mindset after breaking free.

[00:02:18] Put on your best tie and your Catholic skirt

[00:02:26] And try not to blur

[00:02:37] For a good name

[00:03:13] I'm Prisca and I'm a recovering preacher's kid.

[00:03:15] And I'm Scott and I'm a recovered evangelical.

[00:03:21] It's been a long time, but here we are.

[00:03:25] Oh, I like that past tense.

[00:03:26] Yeah.

[00:03:27] I'm over it.

[00:03:29] It's pretty definitive.

[00:03:30] I feel like that's progress.

[00:03:33] We're done with it.

[00:03:35] Because now we are.

[00:03:38] You want to say it?

[00:03:39] And we're coming at you from

[00:03:42] The Horny Chapel!

[00:03:44] Oh my gosh, I'm sitting in a pew.

[00:03:46] Are you?

[00:03:47] Oh God, I hope not.

[00:03:50] But I do have Jesus behind me, so.

[00:03:53] Yes, you've got our Lord and Savior looking over your shoulder.

[00:03:56] It's either Jesus or Jared Leto, he kind of looks like.

[00:04:00] It's one or the other.

[00:04:01] It's every breath you take, every move you make, he'll be watching you.

[00:04:05] Yeah.

[00:04:05] Did you have chapel?

[00:04:06] Did you ever go to school where you had chapel weekly?

[00:04:09] I did not.

[00:04:11] I went to a regular school.

[00:04:12] Like you.

[00:04:13] We're products of the University of California, you and me both.

[00:04:17] That's true.

[00:04:18] But I went to San Gabriel Christian School from 5th through 8th grade.

[00:04:24] Oh, okay.

[00:04:25] So you had chapel.

[00:04:26] I think we had weekly chapel.

[00:04:28] Yeah, Thursdays.

[00:04:30] It's kind of fun.

[00:04:31] Yeah, I was going to say, once a week is doable, right?

[00:04:34] You sing some songs, you hear a sermon.

[00:04:36] Some schools do it every day.

[00:04:38] That sounds awful.

[00:04:40] Yeah.

[00:04:41] We're not that kind of chapel.

[00:04:43] No, we really aren't.

[00:04:45] What kind of chapel are we?

[00:04:46] I feel like we're like a finger chapel.

[00:04:50] Well, okay.

[00:04:51] So we should explain that you have a podcast.

[00:04:54] Yes.

[00:04:55] Called Two Horny Goats.

[00:04:57] Yes.

[00:04:58] Excellent.

[00:04:58] Amazing podcast.

[00:05:00] Thank you so much.

[00:05:01] I run that with my friend Roxy.

[00:05:03] Roxy Shi, who's a film director.

[00:05:04] And I think the interesting thing about our podcast is I have this very religious background.

[00:05:10] But she couldn't be further from that.

[00:05:13] Like grew up kind of really, really not even agnostic, but more so atheist with like Buddhist

[00:05:18] practices and teachings.

[00:05:21] And she's much more free sexually than I am.

[00:05:24] I am trying to be more free, but I grew up so repressed that my version of freedom is

[00:05:29] still kind of vanilla.

[00:05:31] But yeah.

[00:05:32] So that's our podcast.

[00:05:33] And we talk a lot about sex, sexuality, family, food, culture, et cetera, all through the lens

[00:05:40] of an AAPI, you know, femme gaze.

[00:05:43] And what's your podcast called?

[00:05:46] And my podcast is called Chapel Probation.

[00:05:49] Oh my gosh.

[00:05:50] Which is all about surviving evangelical schools, colleges, universities.

[00:05:56] And it's kind of expanded into more of a general deconstruction conversation because

[00:06:00] early on we established pretty definitively that evangelical schools suck in just about

[00:06:08] every way imaginable.

[00:06:11] There was a really great recent guest named Prisca on.

[00:06:15] Hey, I hear good things about her.

[00:06:18] Yeah.

[00:06:19] Yeah.

[00:06:20] It's very controversial.

[00:06:21] I mean, what a coincidence though to have horny chapel.

[00:06:23] Wow.

[00:06:24] How did we name that just by chance?

[00:06:26] So yeah.

[00:06:28] Full disclosure.

[00:06:29] We just put our two podcast names together.

[00:06:33] Right.

[00:06:33] And it kind of works.

[00:06:34] It's, it's, it's, we're going to talk about purity culture.

[00:06:37] Yeah.

[00:06:38] Yeah.

[00:06:38] And, and I think we're heading toward a, a place where we establish sort of a sex positive

[00:06:44] point of view as we sort of unpack the, the harms and damages of purity culture.

[00:06:52] Yeah.

[00:06:53] Lots of trauma, lots of confusing, confusing bathroom moments.

[00:06:59] Uh, and, uh, I mean, just to kick us off, um, Scott, you put this news story kind of in our

[00:07:07] notes here, but there was just recently a news story about a pastor talking about advice

[00:07:13] for women for their wedding nights.

[00:07:15] Um, can you tell us a little bit about the background of it?

[00:07:19] Yeah.

[00:07:19] So, uh, my friend Rick Pidcock writes for the Baptist news and, and this is not a new story.

[00:07:27] It's, it's, it's just the latest.

[00:07:30] This pastor gave a sermon giving advice for, uh, someone's wedding night for, and it's

[00:07:38] to women because you know, men, men have to teach the women how, how to be in, in that

[00:07:43] culture.

[00:07:44] How to sex.

[00:07:44] Yeah.

[00:07:45] How to sex, especially how to sex on the, the wedding night, you know, the night.

[00:07:50] Women have no urges prior to the wedding night.

[00:07:53] They, they are.

[00:07:54] They flip the switch.

[00:07:55] I do it.

[00:07:55] I do it creatures.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:57] Yeah.

[00:07:58] Without any sexual needs or urges or desires only for their, you know, unnamed husband until

[00:08:04] they meet the husband and then you do the wedding.

[00:08:06] Then they become a person.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:08] Full fledged person.

[00:08:09] Yeah.

[00:08:09] A full fledged receptacle, if you will.

[00:08:13] For cum?

[00:08:16] Of, for the Holy Spirit.

[00:08:18] For the Holy Spirit.

[00:08:20] Got it.

[00:08:20] In the form of cum.

[00:08:22] The Holy splooge.

[00:08:23] From, from the husband's penis.

[00:08:26] Yes.

[00:08:26] So basically it's the usual thing.

[00:08:28] He's, he's like, women do what you're, what the best thing women can do is whatever the

[00:08:35] man tells you.

[00:08:35] Wear what you, wear what he tells you to wear, stand where he wants you to stand, do what

[00:08:39] he wants you to do.

[00:08:40] The funny thing is, um, maybe not the best advice.

[00:08:43] Cause I don't know that men know a lot about sex in that culture.

[00:08:46] So, yeah.

[00:08:49] And also, standing up is already, that's already a tough position.

[00:08:56] Yeah.

[00:08:57] And that's a, that's an advanced sexual situation.

[00:09:01] Right.

[00:09:01] That's, that's, that's not usually.

[00:09:03] You got to work up to it.

[00:09:05] Right.

[00:09:05] Yeah.

[00:09:06] No.

[00:09:06] Yeah.

[00:09:07] It takes some creativity.

[00:09:08] And I don't know if oral is allowed in these cultures.

[00:09:11] Um, even after marriage.

[00:09:13] Oh, or before marriage.

[00:09:14] Yeah.

[00:09:15] Well, for sure it's, it's allowed to like fellatio is allowed.

[00:09:19] I don't think it's reciprocated very often in this culture.

[00:09:23] No.

[00:09:24] I'm guessing.

[00:09:25] No, this is very, when you sent me the article, it was just, it made my stomach turn.

[00:09:30] And I think, you know, for, for our listeners who, who have no idea who I am.

[00:09:35] Hi, I'm Prisca, but I have been out of the church for about 10 years.

[00:09:39] And I do think a lot of this, um, kind of the, the way of speaking about this, I've been

[00:09:45] so apart from, from it for so long that it feels brand new to me all of a sudden.

[00:09:51] And because I've, you know, grown and, and become a lot more free thinking and whatnot.

[00:09:57] Um, it's even more egregious than I could have even, you know, recalled.

[00:10:01] So it really made my stomach turn, but I, from what, what you remember 10 years ago?

[00:10:09] Yes.

[00:10:09] It, it definitely brings back a lot in terms of, I remember, yeah, being very fully indoctrinated

[00:10:18] and kind of the idea that the man will, will like one men always want sex.

[00:10:25] That's all they want.

[00:10:26] Um, they're always trying to get it no matter what.

[00:10:29] And your job is to like, keep, be the keeper of your castle.

[00:10:33] Like keep your, you know, your moat bridge up.

[00:10:36] And, uh, and, uh, and, and finally when you get married, uh, you know, you guys can have

[00:10:43] at it, but the, the guy's going to know way more than you because he's more sexual.

[00:10:46] And it was so sad because I think all of my early sexual fantasies always had to be like,

[00:10:54] you know, kind of under the umbrella of my wedding night.

[00:10:57] I didn't even think about the marriage.

[00:10:59] It was always just the wedding night.

[00:11:01] Cause I was that polite of a little Christian girl, you know?

[00:11:04] Um, how about yourself?

[00:11:06] Yeah, similar.

[00:11:07] Um, so I, I came, I grew up before all of the, um, culture of like true love weights

[00:11:12] and purity balls and, um, the, the purity rings.

[00:11:17] Was that, that was a thing, right?

[00:11:18] Purity rings.

[00:11:19] Yeah.

[00:11:19] So I was, I was like a decade before that, but it was still the same message.

[00:11:24] Yeah.

[00:11:25] Same message of, you know, virginity, purity, saving yourself for marriage.

[00:11:30] Uh, at some point during this, this run of our podcast, I'll tell some embarrassing

[00:11:34] stories.

[00:11:36] Yeah.

[00:11:37] Things I have said to.

[00:11:39] Things that would be.

[00:11:41] Did you say.

[00:11:41] They would be your partners.

[00:11:43] Um, you'll be praying.

[00:11:44] You'll be praying for them to, uh, like the Lord told you that you belong together.

[00:11:50] You'll keep praying for them till they see the light.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:53] Um, not, not as much that, but just when opportunities arose for a sexual moment, me being good Christian

[00:12:01] boy.

[00:12:03] And Jerry still makes fun of me for, for these stories.

[00:12:07] All right.

[00:12:07] We'll say, we'll save it.

[00:12:08] We'll save it.

[00:12:09] Cause I can that out.

[00:12:10] That's going to come up.

[00:12:11] I can tell it's juicy.

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:13] It's juicy and just tragic.

[00:12:15] Right.

[00:12:16] And who was, um, who's the pastor of the, of that church that had that podcast that had

[00:12:22] Mars Hills or was it Mars Hills?

[00:12:24] Uh, Mark Driscoll.

[00:12:25] Mark Driscoll.

[00:12:27] Did you listen to that podcast series?

[00:12:29] I didn't listen to it.

[00:12:31] I read about it.

[00:12:32] And one of my friends was one of the people that sort of brought him down by exposing him

[00:12:37] on those emails.

[00:12:38] Uh, shout out to Zach Malm.

[00:12:41] But yeah.

[00:12:41] Zach Malm doing the real, doing the Lord's work.

[00:12:44] Um, but I do remember one sermon that they played kind of, uh, I don't think it was in

[00:12:50] full, but it was large clips of it was basically, he was arguing the godliness of a wife meeting

[00:12:59] a husband at the door with beer and a blow job and how that was godly.

[00:13:06] That's godliness.

[00:13:08] That's a godly wife.

[00:13:09] And I, I think I was in the car on a road trip listening to it and then I felt like vomiting.

[00:13:16] Yeah.

[00:13:16] I mean, if, if you've made plans for that and that's part of your vibe, then cool.

[00:13:21] But to tell a woman that, that she has to do this as some kind of theological truth.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:29] That's pretty fucked up.

[00:13:30] That's super fucked up.

[00:13:31] I'm all for meeting someone with a blow.

[00:13:33] Like that's not a problem, but instructing people to do it.

[00:13:37] It's really like the servitude kind of comes out.

[00:13:40] Your body is a temple.

[00:13:43] Yeah.

[00:13:43] And that's to your earlier point, like assuming that the man is always wanting sex.

[00:13:47] Cause like, let's say he's coming home and he's stressed out.

[00:13:50] His boss just yelled at him.

[00:13:51] He may not actually want a blow job in that moment.

[00:13:55] Yeah.

[00:13:55] Maybe not.

[00:13:56] I mean, maybe he does.

[00:13:57] Yeah.

[00:13:58] What if the wife comes home from work?

[00:14:01] Exactly.

[00:14:02] What are you supposed to, what's the, what's the opposite of that?

[00:14:04] Well, she's supposed to make dinner.

[00:14:07] I'm just kidding.

[00:14:08] But in a perfect world, the man would be what?

[00:14:11] Holding, would it be a beer?

[00:14:14] Oh, sure.

[00:14:16] Oh, which beverage?

[00:14:17] What's the feminine beverage?

[00:14:18] I guess we shouldn't even do that.

[00:14:19] Oh, I know.

[00:14:20] He's holding a beer and on his knees.

[00:14:23] Yeah.

[00:14:25] With a, with a, with a, with a, like a, a get mod, you know, vibrator.

[00:14:31] The newest, the hottest.

[00:14:33] Yeah.

[00:14:33] Yeah.

[00:14:34] Um, but again, I think all this is kind of tying to the point that purity culture has

[00:14:39] its roots in page in the patriarchy.

[00:14:42] Right.

[00:14:42] Cause there never is the flip side of it.

[00:14:45] There's never the man role in pleasing a woman sexually.

[00:14:50] Yeah.

[00:14:50] Or, or being even in subservient in any way.

[00:14:53] It's, it's always the man's dominion that the wife is his property.

[00:14:58] And right.

[00:14:59] And it's always the myth that women don't have these sexual urges that women don't have,

[00:15:05] you know, different levels of pleasure.

[00:15:07] Like it's kind of this myth that, you know, men are the only ones that derive pleasure from

[00:15:13] sex.

[00:15:13] Right.

[00:15:14] And then there's something wrong with the woman if there, if she does, you know, feel

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:19] Right.

[00:15:19] Aroused or turned on or desires things or has fantasies.

[00:15:23] Um, it's, there's something wrong with you.

[00:15:25] You know, you're clearly not in alignment with, with God.

[00:15:29] Right.

[00:15:30] Cause even if she's never slept with other people or done anything with other people,

[00:15:33] it's somehow slutty of her just to have that desire is the inference.

[00:15:39] Yeah.

[00:15:40] That's puts us between a rock and a hard place.

[00:15:42] If you, if you catch my drift.

[00:15:45] Yeah.

[00:15:46] It's weird because like, um, early Christianity, like I used to teach Shakespeare.

[00:15:52] And so during Shakespeare's time, it was, it was seen as a sin to even like really enjoy

[00:15:57] sex between husband and wife because you didn't want anything that would be more important

[00:16:05] or more pleasurable than worshiping God and going to church and being a Christian.

[00:16:10] Wow.

[00:16:11] And you could actually go to jail.

[00:16:13] Like your, your neighbors could turn you in if, if they heard you enjoying sex too loudly

[00:16:18] than you were in violation of like laws.

[00:16:22] For both men and women.

[00:16:24] Yeah, it could be, but obviously it was more applied towards the,

[00:16:27] toward women.

[00:16:29] Okay.

[00:16:29] The rule.

[00:16:31] Interesting.

[00:16:32] Those are sort of like the early days of like purity culture, um, where the men could,

[00:16:37] men could like be bisexual and have male lovers and still be considered pure, but women

[00:16:44] weren't, weren't supposed to be as quite as lusty.

[00:16:46] Oh, so you look at today, it's just like, they've just taken that like times a million

[00:16:52] and women are not supposed to, to have any kind of sexuality previous to marriage.

[00:17:00] And then a sexuality that's purely devoted to their husband in marriage.

[00:17:05] So.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:06] Fun, fun times for the, for the Christians.

[00:17:09] Well, and it's so, it's so funny just fighting so much biological truth, which, you know, points

[00:17:17] to the complete contrary.

[00:17:19] Um.

[00:17:20] Yeah.

[00:17:21] Wow.

[00:17:22] That's super wild.

[00:17:23] I don't think I realized it was outlawed to orgasm loudly.

[00:17:26] Yeah.

[00:17:27] Can't, can't be enjoying it too much.

[00:17:29] It's mostly for procreation and, and for, um, making the husband happy.

[00:17:34] Obviously.

[00:17:35] Don't cause him to stumble.

[00:17:38] Did you have a purity ring?

[00:17:40] Um, I didn't because it, you know, I, I had, I saw it in magazines.

[00:17:46] I used to get Brio magazine, which was, I think a focus on the family kind of teen girl

[00:17:53] magazine.

[00:17:54] They had a lot of advertisements for the, the purity ring.

[00:17:57] So I think, um, now looking back, it's like, wow, it was merch.

[00:18:02] It was straight up like merch, you know?

[00:18:04] Wait, was it a brand?

[00:18:06] It.

[00:18:06] There was one purity ring that you had to buy or were there like lots of companies that

[00:18:10] could make a purity ring?

[00:18:11] I want to say that the true love weights one was kind of like the Burberry.

[00:18:16] Like that was the big, you know, the, the, the one you wanted.

[00:18:20] Um, and I know that they would hold true love weights ceremonies.

[00:18:24] They would kind of, it was like a traveling, you know, conference type thing.

[00:18:28] And a lot of churches would have these ceremonies where the dad would come almost like giving

[00:18:33] them away at a wedding.

[00:18:35] Um, which I think is also compound, compounding the understanding of, you know, just that you,

[00:18:42] a woman is only owned by a man throughout her life.

[00:18:45] And first it's her father.

[00:18:46] First the father.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:47] And then husband.

[00:18:49] And then, you know, if she has a son.

[00:18:51] So you didn't go to a purity ball either.

[00:18:52] I didn't go to a purity ball.

[00:18:54] Okay.

[00:18:54] I thought that these were like trucker balls that when you put purity balls, um, no, I

[00:19:00] never, yeah, right.

[00:19:02] That would be, we should, um, that should be merged for this show.

[00:19:05] Merch for this show.

[00:19:06] Just trucker balls.

[00:19:07] Purity balls.

[00:19:08] I never went to one of those.

[00:19:09] However, um, I went on a little like trip, mini trip with my mom.

[00:19:15] Uh, we drove up to Ventura and she read, you know, I had to read through this booklet

[00:19:19] and do worksheets and then sign, uh, sign some document that she wrote up.

[00:19:25] She's an auditor.

[00:19:25] So she, you know, she wanted it airtight.

[00:19:28] Um, but signed a document that said like, you know, I wouldn't all these things.

[00:19:34] I, I don't remember all of them, but sex, no sexing, you know, it was a whole page of,

[00:19:38] of, I will not.

[00:19:40] And I signed it.

[00:19:41] So did you ever pledge to that degree?

[00:19:45] No, there weren't any pledges when I was coming up.

[00:19:48] So wait, uh, the workbook and the pledge that you did.

[00:19:52] Yeah.

[00:19:52] How specific was it?

[00:19:54] You know, I, I will not, you know, then there's this list of like hand jobs.

[00:20:01] It wasn't that, I guess like sexually explicit, but it was just like saving yourself, keeping

[00:20:08] yourself pure, like not allowing someone else to, you know, defile you.

[00:20:14] Um, it was stuff like that.

[00:20:16] Uh, and then the work, the worksheets were, um, you know, kind of future casting your future

[00:20:22] husband.

[00:20:23] And I'll never forget my mom, you know, was like, yeah, write down the treats that you

[00:20:26] want for a future husband.

[00:20:27] And I wrote down like cute, like good looking.

[00:20:31] And then she was like, um, well, Priscilla, we might want to change this to good looking

[00:20:35] to, to my level.

[00:20:37] Um, or, you know, cute to, to, to my, to my attractiveness level.

[00:20:41] Cause you don't want someone that's too attractive because, um, they might leave you.

[00:20:48] And she's, she's kind of low key telling you you're not.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:52] Like a.

[00:20:52] Not a 10, not a 10 in my mom's eyes.

[00:20:56] I'm a perfect seven.

[00:20:58] I don't know.

[00:20:59] That's that even sounds too high.

[00:21:00] That sounds too high.

[00:21:02] You gotta find a seven or a lower.

[00:21:04] Exactly.

[00:21:04] Exactly.

[00:21:05] I'm, I'm a perfect 6.5.

[00:21:07] That's me.

[00:21:07] That's, that's where, that's where I'm at.

[00:21:10] Um, that's harsh.

[00:21:11] That's really sad because.

[00:21:13] I know.

[00:21:13] Cause that kind of plays into this whole culture, right?

[00:21:15] Of women being commodities.

[00:21:17] Um, yes.

[00:21:18] Almost.

[00:21:19] Yeah.

[00:21:20] My, my Yelp review from my mom.

[00:21:22] My mom was kind of mid.

[00:21:27] But did you.

[00:21:28] Cause you know, like if you're a boy that you're a 10 all the time.

[00:21:32] Cause you're, you're the, you're the, you're the son.

[00:21:34] You're the son.

[00:21:35] Yeah.

[00:21:35] Especially in an Asian American family.

[00:21:38] The son is, is extra important.

[00:21:41] Yeah.

[00:21:41] Yeah.

[00:21:42] Uh, which, you know, I think is something that we're going to talk about in future episodes.

[00:21:46] Just kind of the Asian American, uh, implications of all the things we're talking about.

[00:21:52] Yes.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:54] Cause this doesn't get talked about a lot in, in our communities.

[00:21:57] No.

[00:21:57] Um, but.

[00:21:59] And, and, and Asian American is, you know, it's not a monolith.

[00:22:01] It's, we're, we're going to, it's the tough part is we sort of have to remain, um, aware

[00:22:07] of the disaggregation of Asian American cultures.

[00:22:10] Yeah.

[00:22:10] And, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of universality tied between this and even between

[00:22:15] white culture.

[00:22:16] Right.

[00:22:16] True.

[00:22:17] We will get into that.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:18] And, and, uh, I'm Taiwanese American and Scott, you're Japanese American.

[00:22:22] So like you're saying, just for the context of that, there's only such a limited view that

[00:22:27] we have, um, and can speak to, but important to talk about nonetheless.

[00:22:34] Indeed.

[00:22:35] Indeed.

[00:22:35] Yeah.

[00:22:36] But, um, you were saying, you know, you kind of knew at, at a certain point that you were

[00:22:40] not going to have sex.

[00:22:41] What was your, how did you come to that decision?

[00:22:45] Uh, like before premarital sex.

[00:22:47] Sorry.

[00:22:48] I don't want to say just generally.

[00:22:50] So like as a teenager, they just scare the shit out of you.

[00:22:53] Like with hell, you know, like your, your salvation is in the balance.

[00:22:57] Right.

[00:22:58] Of your decisions, you know, and it's not really cause men, they always forgive men,

[00:23:03] but they try to scare you early on.

[00:23:05] Yeah.

[00:23:06] And so I, you know, I, one of the beginning chapter of the chapter of my book, late in my

[00:23:11] book, Asian American apostate, I tell the story of being at a party with some friends

[00:23:17] and we were nerds.

[00:23:18] We were band geeks.

[00:23:19] It wasn't like we were hard partiers, but one of my old friends sat next to me and there

[00:23:24] wasn't any alcohol, you know, the parents are there in the house.

[00:23:28] Oh God.

[00:23:28] That's like I said, this is not a high school party like in the movies.

[00:23:32] Right.

[00:23:33] Um, but my friend sits down next to me and she says, why haven't you ever made a move?

[00:23:37] And I was like, I, um, I, I, uh, I had, I didn't know what to say.

[00:23:42] And then she's like, well, let's go into the bedroom and we can do whatever you want.

[00:23:50] And instead of being, instead of being like excited and flattered, I was terrified.

[00:23:57] I literally saw the gates of hell opening up before me.

[00:24:02] And it's like, um, Frodo in Lord of the Rings when he sees kind of, uh, Mordor, you

[00:24:08] know, the eye of Sauron coming at him.

[00:24:11] Yeah.

[00:24:12] Except it was, it was white Jesus.

[00:24:15] And, um, and I, I immediately like flipped out, like calmly flipped out in my way and

[00:24:22] ran into the kitchen, right.

[00:24:24] Where I knew the parents of the house were and just started conversing with them.

[00:24:29] It's like, Hey, how's it going?

[00:24:32] We need an adult in the situation.

[00:24:33] We need an adult.

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:37] And I, I felt bad because she felt, my friend felt rejected and felt, you know, but because

[00:24:43] now I used to tell the story, the story as like this triumph of Christianity.

[00:24:48] My, my, I was so pure testimony and so such a strong Christian that, you know, but really

[00:24:55] I was just scared.

[00:24:56] It was, um, so I took it really seriously, obviously.

[00:25:01] I have friends that I found out later they were having sex and I'm like, what?

[00:25:05] Nobody told me.

[00:25:06] They were also on the worship team and yeah, yeah.

[00:25:08] They're like, yeah, we, we felt bad.

[00:25:09] I'm like, yeah, but you were having sex and I was following the rules.

[00:25:14] I didn't know you could do that.

[00:25:16] I mean, I feel that like, do you feel that part of you also wasn't ready to have sex just

[00:25:23] in general?

[00:25:24] Like, oh yeah.

[00:25:25] Right.

[00:25:25] Okay.

[00:25:26] Cause I definitely feel that there were certain times where I was not actually ready to.

[00:25:31] So some of, you know, looking back and kind of, I do feel that purity culture could kind

[00:25:38] of be an out for us, uh, to not deal with things that we weren't necessarily prepared

[00:25:43] to deal with yet.

[00:25:45] Yeah.

[00:25:46] It's definitely like a silver lining of sorts.

[00:25:48] Right.

[00:25:49] In, in that, um, I don't know, but I was 17 or ish.

[00:25:54] Got it.

[00:25:55] At the time you don't seem that young, but like when I look at 17 year olds now, like

[00:25:59] they're puny.

[00:26:00] So young.

[00:26:00] Yeah.

[00:26:01] They look like fetuses.

[00:26:02] What do you even know?

[00:26:04] Exactly.

[00:26:04] Exactly.

[00:26:05] Um, but I mean, so most of your impetus for staying quote unquote pure was fear based.

[00:26:12] Yeah.

[00:26:13] Fear of repercussions of sinning, of disappointing God, disappointing my family.

[00:26:19] And disappointing your future wife.

[00:26:20] Was that ever?

[00:26:22] Yeah.

[00:26:22] That eventually became part of the program.

[00:26:26] But was shame?

[00:26:27] I don't think I was thinking about in my, in my high school years, but definitely as I

[00:26:30] got to college, you know, as you get older.

[00:26:32] Which is funny.

[00:26:33] Cause I think for women, we were always told like, you don't want to be doing this cause

[00:26:38] your future husband's going to be really like upset, you know?

[00:26:41] Even from like 14 years old.

[00:26:44] Your virginity is the greatest gift.

[00:26:44] Exactly.

[00:26:45] Exactly.

[00:26:46] So that's funny.

[00:26:47] Cause I feel like shame kind of came to play later, but it wasn't kind of at the, at the

[00:26:52] very onset of this doctrine.

[00:26:57] Yeah.

[00:26:58] Yeah.

[00:26:59] That's funny.

[00:26:59] So shame wasn't a huge factor for me as much as fear.

[00:27:02] That's interesting.

[00:27:03] But yeah, it was part of it.

[00:27:04] It was definitely part of it.

[00:27:05] Got it.

[00:27:06] Yeah.

[00:27:06] I think women get, get way more shame, shamed.

[00:27:09] Yeah.

[00:27:09] Yeah.

[00:27:10] But question for you.

[00:27:12] Yeah.

[00:27:12] Would you, cause again, we, we kind of grew up in slightly different generations for,

[00:27:18] for me, the true love weights generation was my generation.

[00:27:21] So, um, I feel like, Oh, like elder, elder mid millennials definitely kind of fell into

[00:27:27] that really hard.

[00:27:29] Um, but did you and your Bible study group, like men's groups, did you guys talk about

[00:27:34] masturbation?

[00:27:35] And did you shame each other for watching porn or talk, you know, masturbating?

[00:27:40] Cause that's what I found so interesting is like every time I'd ask my guy friends,

[00:27:44] like, what'd you guys talk about in like men's group?

[00:27:45] And they're like, Oh, well they asked like if we masturbated and I was like, what the fuck?

[00:27:49] I could not imagine like that being spoken about in our women's group.

[00:27:54] So I just wanted to ask.

[00:27:55] No, um, porn wasn't, porn was, was difficult to come by back then.

[00:28:02] So it wasn't as much, it got mentioned for sure.

[00:28:05] Um, but masturbation.

[00:28:07] Yeah.

[00:28:08] I mean, they would talk vaguely about it.

[00:28:11] That kind of like specifics didn't get more like openly talked about until later, I think.

[00:28:18] So it was more like in terms of like lust.

[00:28:21] I see.

[00:28:22] So it was coded.

[00:28:23] And yeah, you knew what they were talking about.

[00:28:27] I was like, how do you get vague about masturbating?

[00:28:30] You know, it's pretty.

[00:28:30] Yeah.

[00:28:31] Yeah.

[00:28:31] So like a camp speaker might say something like, you know, the men and your lusts and your,

[00:28:35] you know, practices and you, in your, when you're alone and, and, you know, it's like everyone

[00:28:40] knows what he's talking about.

[00:28:42] Yeah.

[00:28:42] And no, we're not supposed to do that.

[00:28:44] But interestingly, a James Dobson book from like the seventies, one of those parenting books,

[00:28:51] I was kind of fucked up.

[00:28:53] Um, yeah.

[00:28:55] Talked about masturbation is not necessarily a bad thing.

[00:28:59] Oh, wow.

[00:29:00] Like a rare win from James Dobson.

[00:29:03] Yeah.

[00:29:04] Yeah.

[00:29:04] I'm not going to give it to me, but yeah.

[00:29:06] It's everything else.

[00:29:07] He says, so bad.

[00:29:09] Um, my, when my dad had the, that father, Christian father talk with me and eventually my brother,

[00:29:15] you know, we're going for a drive, we're going to go have, you know, some ice cream and he's

[00:29:19] going to tell us about the birds and the bees.

[00:29:21] And he mentioned that Dr. Dobson said, you know, masturbation is okay as long as it's

[00:29:26] not interfering, interfering with your, your walk with Christ.

[00:29:30] Okay.

[00:29:31] Um, and you know, it's one of those car rides where you just want to like jump out of the

[00:29:36] window and roll out into oncoming traffic.

[00:29:39] Like, can we, can this be over yesterday?

[00:29:42] Yeah.

[00:29:43] Um, but, and I think Dobson eventually got more hard line on it in line with it in the

[00:29:50] nineties.

[00:29:51] Cause this was like the early eighties when I was like 11.

[00:29:54] And yeah.

[00:29:55] And so, um, so there's, there was conflicting teaching in my generation because by the time

[00:30:01] you, you came along, it was hardcore embedded into the culture with the terminology, with,

[00:30:07] with the rules.

[00:30:09] Especially for, especially for boys, especially for boys.

[00:30:12] Cause I think again, it was kind of that myth that like, I mean, women couldn't pleasure them

[00:30:18] like women pleasuring themselves was never spoken about.

[00:30:21] And so in some weird ways, I have a lot less shame about masturbation than some of the

[00:30:26] guys I knew that grew up in the church because it was spoken about so explicitly, you know?

[00:30:31] Yeah.

[00:30:32] And, and, and often, and it was like in small groups, it was like, all right, everyone who

[00:30:37] masturbated this week, like raise your hand type of shit, which is so fucking weird.

[00:30:44] Um, and the, and it was like, kind of like, let's pray for you so that this temptation

[00:30:49] doesn't keep happening.

[00:30:51] Right.

[00:30:52] And you know that you're going to, you're going to have the same conversation next week.

[00:30:55] Yeah.

[00:30:57] And what a violation of privacy.

[00:30:59] Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:02] It's, but I do remember, um, I specifically remember at one of my college retreats, I went

[00:31:09] to a new song, um, and, uh, their college group was called the edge and we went to a retreat

[00:31:14] and there's this one, yeah, the edge, we're living on the edge with Jesus.

[00:31:18] Um, but like, uh, you know, there's a speaker and she was a woman and it was like an afternoon

[00:31:23] session.

[00:31:24] So a lot of people were just like taking naps during, you know, it was very, but she talked

[00:31:27] about masturbation in, in this room of like 19 to 22 year olds.

[00:31:31] And I found her very brave.

[00:31:33] Um, and she was like equating loving yourself with masturbating and like, like, you know,

[00:31:39] like Jesus loves you.

[00:31:42] You should love yourself.

[00:31:43] And loving yourself includes masturbation.

[00:31:46] And I was like, bold over.

[00:31:49] I couldn't, I couldn't believe, um, what she was saying.

[00:31:53] Cause everything we had heard was just like, don't do this.

[00:31:56] This will, this will make you spoiled goods.

[00:31:58] The temptation don't give into it, et cetera.

[00:32:01] And she was like trying to give this oral argument about, you know, how, how taking care

[00:32:06] of yourself sexually is biblical.

[00:32:08] But what does the Bible say about masturbation?

[00:32:11] I actually don't really know the, not a lot.

[00:32:15] Right.

[00:32:16] Um, so that's interesting.

[00:32:18] It was, it was in positive terms.

[00:32:21] It was, it was, yeah.

[00:32:23] Was she ever asked back?

[00:32:25] I don't know.

[00:32:26] I've never seen her again.

[00:32:27] I don't even remember who she was.

[00:32:29] No one ever heard from her again.

[00:32:30] She disappeared.

[00:32:31] But it was super powerful message.

[00:32:34] Yeah.

[00:32:35] No.

[00:32:35] How important that was for you.

[00:32:36] Like, and for everyone who heard that, right.

[00:32:38] Cause that's not the message.

[00:32:40] Most people.

[00:32:42] Given to women in, in that culture.

[00:32:44] No.

[00:32:45] Wow.

[00:32:47] I know.

[00:32:48] It was kind of, um, wild thinking back to it.

[00:32:53] Huh?

[00:32:54] Cause like to your earlier point, usually it's, if it's spoken of, it's spoken negatively,

[00:32:59] but there's almost like this assumption that's taught to you that it shouldn't even occur

[00:33:05] to you.

[00:33:05] You know, they, it doesn't, it doesn't even, it doesn't factor into anything about being

[00:33:11] a woman.

[00:33:12] Yeah.

[00:33:13] Like I have a friend from inner varsity who, who, when she was like 30.

[00:33:18] Yeah.

[00:33:19] Came to, to us and said, women can masturbate.

[00:33:23] It was like news to her.

[00:33:25] Like, how do you, how'd you get to this point in life and you, you're just figuring this

[00:33:29] out now?

[00:33:30] And I have a really, yeah.

[00:33:33] It didn't occur to her.

[00:33:34] No.

[00:33:35] I have a really good friend who recently told me that the first time she masturbated, she

[00:33:40] thought it was the Holy Spirit.

[00:33:42] And she was like, this is what they're all talking about.

[00:33:47] Wait, she thought that like the orgasm was the Holy Spirit?

[00:33:51] Yeah.

[00:33:51] If only.

[00:33:52] Like she was like, oh my gosh, that's the Holy Spirit.

[00:33:55] That's what everyone's freaking out about.

[00:33:57] No wonder.

[00:33:57] I get it now.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:33:59] A lot more people would go to church if that were true.

[00:34:03] A hundred percent.

[00:34:04] I agree with that.

[00:34:06] I never, I never had that kind of experience with the Holy Spirit.

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:12] And can I ask you in terms of, cause you know, I, you know, I'm mostly, I'm experiencing

[00:34:19] all this purity culture through a female lens.

[00:34:23] Yeah.

[00:34:23] What did you feel like you wanted to marry a virgin?

[00:34:30] Ooh.

[00:34:31] So no.

[00:34:33] I mean, I think I would have been fine if, if that were the case.

[00:34:38] Yeah.

[00:34:40] So wait, let me back up.

[00:34:41] Yes.

[00:34:42] Okay.

[00:34:44] I knew that was the right answer.

[00:34:47] Right.

[00:34:48] Today's Scott would say no.

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:52] Well, and even then I was, I think I was, I was open to whatever because I believed that

[00:34:58] everyone was forgiven and could be made whole again.

[00:35:01] And so there was a part of me that, that liked the idea of someone who knew, you know, about

[00:35:09] their sexuality and was connected to that.

[00:35:12] Got it.

[00:35:12] And I think that's because I went to, you know, a secular college, like a normal school

[00:35:16] and I knew people and I knew, and some of my best friends in like my writing and literature

[00:35:22] classes were, you know, normal women.

[00:35:26] Right.

[00:35:27] Who seemed to have their shit together and who, who spoke and wrote about their sexuality

[00:35:32] in such like empowering terms that I saw that as like, you know, and I'm still a Christian.

[00:35:40] So I'm, I'm integrating that into whatever theology grid I was looking through.

[00:35:44] Sure.

[00:35:44] But like, yeah, the Bible has sexuality.

[00:35:47] Read Song of Solomon.

[00:35:48] It's, it's like basically a sex manual.

[00:35:50] Yeah.

[00:35:50] It's horny as hell.

[00:35:51] Yeah.

[00:35:52] Right.

[00:35:53] And so I'm like, I believed that there was, there was some kind of redemptive qualities

[00:35:59] to, to someone who was in touch with their sexuality, especially women.

[00:36:03] And so.

[00:36:04] Oh, that's giving, what's that book in the old Testament where he ends up with a prostitute?

[00:36:10] Oh, right.

[00:36:11] I don't remember what.

[00:36:12] Is it Z?

[00:36:12] Starts with a Z?

[00:36:13] I don't know.

[00:36:14] Or, oh, no, no, no.

[00:36:15] It starts with an H.

[00:36:16] Fuck.

[00:36:17] Damn it.

[00:36:18] Okay.

[00:36:19] That'll bother me.

[00:36:19] But you know who I'm talking about.

[00:36:20] It's been too long for both of us.

[00:36:23] Um, no, but that's really interesting because I think, you know, again, like girls in the

[00:36:29] church were basically always cautioned that if you, you know, delved into any kind of

[00:36:36] sexual impropriety, you would be spoiled goods and a good Christian man would no longer find

[00:36:41] you viable as a partner.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] Chewed gum, all those horrible metaphors.

[00:36:47] Duct tape can only be sticky the first time.

[00:36:50] Oh.

[00:36:52] Although they have that new tape now that's, you can re-stick it.

[00:36:54] So maybe that one doesn't work anymore.

[00:36:56] Yeah.

[00:36:57] A little bit of Teflon will go a long way.

[00:36:59] I'm just kidding.

[00:37:00] Um, but yeah, I mean, it was, uh, I think it's interesting to hear your perspective and

[00:37:06] thank you for being so honest in terms of, I think you knew you were supposed to want

[00:37:11] a virgin, but I think when you were more so exposed to, let's call it like more secular

[00:37:16] women, um, you kind of realized, oh, they weren't this big scary thing, you know, just

[00:37:21] because.

[00:37:22] Right.

[00:37:22] Someone else had entered their chamber of secrets at some point.

[00:37:26] Yeah.

[00:37:27] Open that chamber of secrets.

[00:37:29] Yeah.

[00:37:29] So I started dating Jerry and she, and I knew she hadn't been a Christian.

[00:37:33] She came late in life to Christianity and I knew she wasn't a virgin when we were dating

[00:37:38] and I didn't really care.

[00:37:39] I didn't, um, so I'm not the same, I'm not the typical, the prototypical product of

[00:37:45] purity culture, even though I can point to a whole bunch of things where I felt damaged

[00:37:50] by it.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:51] Um, I think by the time I got to college, I was deconstructing everything, um, when it

[00:37:57] came to not just sexuality, but all the theological things and what is church and what is sin and,

[00:38:03] and, um.

[00:38:04] You were feeling more free to question.

[00:38:07] Yeah.

[00:38:07] Yeah, for sure.

[00:38:09] Cause most of the, the, you know, quote unquote trauma that I think back to is from childhood

[00:38:15] where they're scaring the shit out of you with, you know, images of hell and damnation

[00:38:20] and shame and guilt.

[00:38:22] So when you were younger and you would say masturbate, did you just shame spiral afterwards

[00:38:29] each time?

[00:38:30] Oh, I never masturbate.

[00:38:32] I was, no, I'm just kidding.

[00:38:33] Um, yeah, I think there was a lot of that.

[00:38:38] Are your kids listening to this?

[00:38:38] Yeah, no.

[00:38:39] Yeah.

[00:38:40] Yeah.

[00:38:41] Um, my, my kid, my kids, my, they're so lucky they didn't grow up in this.

[00:38:46] Um, yeah.

[00:38:47] They, they once got me.

[00:38:48] They're the most open kids I've ever met.

[00:38:51] Yeah.

[00:38:52] So, so much so it makes me uncomfortable.

[00:38:54] A couple of years ago for Christmas, they got me, I forget even what they bought me,

[00:38:58] but for Christmas, but they wrapped, they, they, they wrapped it such that it looked like

[00:39:03] a rabbit vibrator.

[00:39:05] Oh my.

[00:39:06] So they hand me this package with this big phallic shape and this little extra thing sticking

[00:39:13] out and everyone's laughing and I'm holding this like, am I supposed to open this?

[00:39:19] And then I opened it and it's just a book in the back.

[00:39:21] Oh, they gotcha.

[00:39:23] Like, ha ha.

[00:39:25] Um, that's my kids.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:28] Totally different from, from how you felt about sex growing up.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:31] Yeah.

[00:39:32] So me growing up, they, they, they would always tell us, I think the message in the eighties

[00:39:37] or the early eighties was there's nothing wrong with masturbating as long as you don't

[00:39:42] lust.

[00:39:44] Okay.

[00:39:45] Which.

[00:39:46] That's pretty difficult.

[00:39:47] Kind of defeats the whole purpose of it.

[00:39:49] That's.

[00:39:50] Yeah.

[00:39:51] What are you supposed to picture?

[00:39:52] Colors?

[00:39:53] Yeah.

[00:39:55] Yeah.

[00:39:55] It's like, if it gets to red.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:57] Clouds.

[00:39:58] Um, but what I do find interesting too, is that, you know, when you went to college and

[00:40:03] like you said, we both went to non-religious schools, when you went to college, you felt

[00:40:07] free to kind of open.

[00:40:08] I think that I had the opposite experience where, because I was exposed to more secular,

[00:40:15] you know, worldly people, I felt the need to, um, cling further onto my religiosity.

[00:40:22] And it wasn't that I didn't make friends, but it was like, I, I had to always be very

[00:40:27] prayerful to make sure they weren't leading me astray or whatever, you know?

[00:40:32] And, um, I felt like part two of purity culture in terms of my upbringing was my

[00:40:38] college group and how that was handled.

[00:40:42] Yeah.

[00:40:42] Cause it can be intense in college and those, you know, I was an inner varsity and it was

[00:40:46] the first couple of years.

[00:40:47] I was more like you.

[00:40:48] I think I was more wary of everything.

[00:40:52] Like I remember, you know, like you're sitting in the dorms freshman year, everyone's sitting

[00:40:55] around talking and sharing their lives and everyone went in the room started saying, Oh,

[00:41:00] when did you lose your virginity?

[00:41:02] And we were going around the room and I'm like sitting there like, Oh shit.

[00:41:05] Should I lie?

[00:41:06] Should I make something up?

[00:41:07] You know, cause everyone's got these epic stories.

[00:41:10] Some, some tragic, some epic.

[00:41:12] And like it got to me and I just said, Oh, I'm just going to go for it.

[00:41:16] Like I'm still a virgin.

[00:41:17] And the room got all quiet.

[00:41:19] And then a couple of guys are like, Hey man, I really respect that.

[00:41:24] That's really cool.

[00:41:25] Like I couldn't do it.

[00:41:26] Oh, that's so nice.

[00:41:28] So I was with, I was with good people, good Christian people.

[00:41:31] Um, who in the, of course the, the, the women all thought it was amazing.

[00:41:36] Right.

[00:41:37] And didn't think it was possible.

[00:41:39] Oh, interesting.

[00:41:41] So I, that was, Oh boy.

[00:41:43] Did I, I use that in my testimony.

[00:41:45] Oh yeah.

[00:41:45] You know, cause clearly the Holy Spirit was in that room and instead of me being ridiculed

[00:41:50] and ostracized, I was celebrated as a virgin at 18.

[00:41:55] All your dirty little thoughts had the pew side flirts.

[00:42:04] Fucking ain't worth the hurt.

[00:42:06] Ain't worth the hurt.

[00:42:09] Born in child.

[00:42:16] Hey everyone.

[00:42:17] I'm Nate from the full mutuality podcast.

[00:42:20] I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for tuning into this show.

[00:42:23] We're so grateful that you've decided to spend your time with us.

[00:42:27] Seriously, Dan, Gail, Jessica, Kathleen, Scott, and the rest of us here at the Dauntless

[00:42:31] Media Collective couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without

[00:42:35] your support.

[00:42:36] I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation right now.

[00:42:41] There are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective discord

[00:42:44] server.

[00:42:45] If you're interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing

[00:42:49] the oppressive traditions that they came from, please feel free to hop on into the server.

[00:42:54] If you don't know what discord is, it's a place where communities can gather online

[00:42:58] for chatting on a wide variety of topics.

[00:43:00] In our discord server, we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations, some

[00:43:06] meme sharing, therapeutic venting about whatever religious bullshit you're currently dealing

[00:43:10] with, and even a channel specifically devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the

[00:43:14] podcast you're listening to right now.

[00:43:17] I hope you'll join us.

[00:43:18] You can log in directly to the Dauntless server by clicking the link in the show notes or heading

[00:43:23] to dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top banner.

[00:43:26] See you there.

[00:43:29] Part of me wishes that I like we could have met our Christian selves.

[00:43:35] You know what I mean?

[00:43:37] Like I wonder, like how different would that conversation be?

[00:43:41] It's like similar topic.

[00:43:43] I don't know if that.

[00:43:44] Do you think it would go well?

[00:43:46] Because I think you and I were trained well enough to like make, you know, arguments against

[00:43:53] who we are now.

[00:43:54] Like there were weak ass arguments, but they meant a lot to us.

[00:43:58] Like I can see myself saying, yeah, well, you know, the Holy Spirit has convicted me in

[00:44:03] this way.

[00:44:04] Yeah.

[00:44:04] And here's this Bible verse.

[00:44:05] No, we would be completely impermeable.

[00:44:09] Like we'd be we'd be like immovable points.

[00:44:12] A hundred percent.

[00:44:13] Yeah.

[00:44:14] Especially early on, like 18, 19.

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:17] For me, I started to get over it around there.

[00:44:22] Around like 20 ish.

[00:44:23] Yeah.

[00:44:24] Yeah.

[00:44:24] Isn't it funny, though, how in college groups like Christian college groups talking about

[00:44:30] purity became some weird kind of foreplay to.

[00:44:34] Yeah.

[00:44:37] Like, I don't know.

[00:44:38] It's just like because I was on the worship team as well.

[00:44:41] And it'd be, you know, at a retreat and it's like 3 a.m.

[00:44:44] And you guys are, quote unquote, rehearsing for tomorrow.

[00:44:47] But then it always gets to that kind of purity talk, like, you know, talking about have you

[00:44:52] sinned or have you crossed certain lines or, you know, who have you, who would you, blah,

[00:44:58] blah.

[00:44:59] And all of a sudden, like everyone's horny as hell.

[00:45:02] And it's late.

[00:45:03] And everyone, all of a sudden, everyone in their church hoodies start to look really good

[00:45:07] to you.

[00:45:09] It's just so funny.

[00:45:10] It was a weird type of Christian foreplay.

[00:45:12] Is there a specific story you have about that?

[00:45:17] I mean, that's basically the story.

[00:45:18] It's just like late night rehearsing.

[00:45:20] I think I got into music to hang with boys later at night.

[00:45:26] And for the eats, there was always late night eats when you were with worship team.

[00:45:30] Yeah.

[00:45:31] Yeah.

[00:45:31] Yeah.

[00:45:31] But I think.

[00:45:32] Well, it's a form of intimacy playing music together.

[00:45:34] Right.

[00:45:34] Already.

[00:45:35] Totally.

[00:45:36] You're vulnerable.

[00:45:37] You're listening to each other.

[00:45:38] You're communicating.

[00:45:40] Yeah.

[00:45:40] It's a bond.

[00:45:41] Right.

[00:45:41] When any anyone I play music with, it's like that.

[00:45:44] That is a part of the relationship.

[00:45:47] Oh, 100%.

[00:45:48] 100%.

[00:45:49] And I, yeah, I do think being super sheltered, being raised in purity culture, being completely

[00:45:57] unaware of just normal human interactions.

[00:46:01] Something as simple as playing music together late at night, talking about feelings and religiosity.

[00:46:08] Life.

[00:46:09] Yeah.

[00:46:09] That's like the, that's like the biggest turn on, you know, 18 year old Priscilla could

[00:46:15] have had.

[00:46:15] So, and I like just couldn't wait.

[00:46:19] I'm so lucky that someone didn't, uh, I don't know, I guess because we're talking from a patriarchal

[00:46:27] point of view, I'm so lucky that nobody, no man didn't scoop me up and like take me to

[00:46:33] be a missionary wife with them because that is 100% what I thought was like the height

[00:46:39] of everything.

[00:46:40] You know, I was like, I'm going to be a pastor's wife.

[00:46:43] That was a hundred percent the goal.

[00:46:45] I thought we would be like traveling, like Mr.

[00:46:48] And Mrs.

[00:46:48] Worship teams.

[00:46:49] Like, you know, the, the, the traveling couples that go church to church and they, they do

[00:46:53] their thing at different churches every Sunday, or they might stay at a church for a

[00:46:57] month or two and then they'll go to Mexico city and then they'll go to Africa and then

[00:47:00] they'll go to China and they, you know, they're like traveling musicians, but like Christian

[00:47:04] missionaries, Christian musician missionaries.

[00:47:07] I thought that was like the dream.

[00:47:11] Well, it's not too late.

[00:47:12] You and A could, uh, could pack up and, you know, you all performed beautifully at Tuesday

[00:47:18] night cafe.

[00:47:19] Oh yeah.

[00:47:20] Thank you.

[00:47:20] Let's take it on the road.

[00:47:22] Let's you, you're already there.

[00:47:24] You've, you've, you've, you've got, you've got the show, but yeah.

[00:47:28] But in addition, it's like, yes, thank you.

[00:47:30] I cannot wait for that.

[00:47:31] Um, but in addition, it's like purity culture definitely, uh, infantilizes women, you know,

[00:47:38] um, even in that, uh, I was reading the article that you sent about that pastor saying, stand

[00:47:43] where you, where I want you to wear what I want you to, and don't ask questions basically.

[00:47:47] But prior to that, he was saying, your wife has been planning her wedding day since she

[00:47:52] was a kid.

[00:47:53] She's been, you know, yada, yada, like putting a blanket over her head, like a veil.

[00:47:57] And it's like, in, it's, it's really like infantilizing women by relegating them to just being literally

[00:48:04] a side set piece to your life.

[00:48:07] And, uh, it's just a background character almost, you know?

[00:48:12] Um, and I definitely, I feel that coming out of that was one of the more difficult things

[00:48:20] to do.

[00:48:21] Um, just because you're kind of inundated and overwhelmed with all the information that you

[00:48:28] had kind of been missing.

[00:48:29] And it was kind of terrifying.

[00:48:32] And, and again, I do think like, I think I was a late bloomer.

[00:48:36] I think that I was, you know, kind of taught I didn't have autonomy over my body.

[00:48:42] So there was a lot of fear, uh, in regards to how I interacted with myself, much less someone

[00:48:47] else interacting with me.

[00:48:49] So even after I was leaving the church or deconstructing, I was still so fearful to let anyone touch

[00:48:56] me.

[00:48:58] Um, and it was, and even though I wanted it, I was so scared.

[00:49:01] I, I, I wasn't given like the, the tools to process that other than these kind of like

[00:49:09] blanket religious statements, you know?

[00:49:12] Yeah.

[00:49:13] And where you, did you have boyfriends where this was an issue or like you, you, uh, outside

[00:49:18] of the worship team intimacy, like where their actual, no, I had crazy crushes, but I just

[00:49:23] didn't know how, how I had friends.

[00:49:27] I was friends with a lot of guys, but I didn't know how to initiate or accept a relationship.

[00:49:35] I just didn't, I didn't have a deeper understanding of how normal humans interacted with each other.

[00:49:43] It was so, I was so chased.

[00:49:47] Um, and you know, I'll be honest with you, you know, my younger sister is still in the

[00:49:52] church and she, um, is in her early thirties and she is, you know, has, has made a decision

[00:49:59] to stay in the church and has never dated really anyone seriously.

[00:50:04] Um, and I see a lot of myself in her and it, um, it's, it's almost, I, I kind of, I can

[00:50:12] understand the friends who tried to kind of talk to me about things and the things that

[00:50:16] they said then were very practical.

[00:50:19] Um, but I just couldn't understand them cause everything was like, well, I am called to a

[00:50:24] higher thing and God has a plan for me and God's going to like give me this husband.

[00:50:28] It was kind of arrogant, you know, God's going to give me my perfect husband and we're going

[00:50:33] to have a relationship above all other things.

[00:50:35] And you know, everything's going to be so perfect because it's God ordained.

[00:50:39] Like that's the way I thought.

[00:50:41] And so I couldn't understand just the practicality of being like, you should just ask him if he

[00:50:46] likes you or not something that practical.

[00:50:48] It's like, it didn't fall in line with my crazy, you know, God ordained narrative.

[00:50:55] Wow.

[00:50:56] And it was like a reward for being chased, you know?

[00:50:59] Right.

[00:51:00] I was going to say, you said it was arrogant, but it's, it's also just, that was the formula,

[00:51:05] right?

[00:51:06] So if you live this godly life, of course he's going to reward you with all these things that

[00:51:13] make you a whole Christian, which is being a married person with children.

[00:51:17] Yes.

[00:51:18] You know, in, in this, in this perfectly God sanctioned relationship and.

[00:51:23] Right.

[00:51:25] Yeah.

[00:51:25] You would have a permission slip for sex from God.

[00:51:29] Yeah.

[00:51:29] Well, it's kind of an order, right?

[00:51:31] It's like, it's like a, if you're a woman, it's.

[00:51:34] That's true.

[00:51:35] It's not just permission slip.

[00:51:36] It's, it's like, here's your marching orders.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:40] Gotta give it up whenever he wants it.

[00:51:42] I guess I'm, I'll be honest with you.

[00:51:44] I am really grateful that I left the church before I got married because I do feel that

[00:51:51] especially young, like, you know, a lot of my Christian friends got married before the

[00:51:56] age of 25, which like you were saying, 17 seems young, but 25 seems insanely young to,

[00:52:03] to, to, to be married, you know, or to know what you want enough in life to choose a life

[00:52:07] partner.

[00:52:08] And, you know, and I'm, I'm not against it, but it's just that you feel the pressure to

[00:52:12] do so in order to have sex.

[00:52:14] But I feel that a lot of that married women would go into these sermons or, you know,

[00:52:20] sessions specifically for married women.

[00:52:22] And a lot more of that kind of, um, literature was being shared or a lot of that, you know,

[00:52:28] that was being preached to them, their duty.

[00:52:30] Cause I think pre marriage again, before you get married, you're, you're not a sexual

[00:52:35] being, you don't have sexual desires.

[00:52:37] You don't really think about those things.

[00:52:38] So I feel really fortunate that I left the church probably around 22, 23.

[00:52:44] And that kind of did protect me from maybe some of the more damaging things to be like in

[00:52:50] stamped on my person.

[00:52:53] Yeah.

[00:52:54] Cause Jerry and I got married when we were 24, but we were already sort of deconstructing

[00:53:00] everything and we had already had a life goal of just like making sex a priority.

[00:53:06] And, you know, we were on a mission to perfect it.

[00:53:09] We were experts.

[00:53:10] You worked at it.

[00:53:12] We did.

[00:53:13] It was, yeah, that's what they say.

[00:53:16] You know, marriage takes work.

[00:53:17] Long nights.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:19] Yeah.

[00:53:20] We were very diligent.

[00:53:21] Bench over a table.

[00:53:22] Yeah.

[00:53:22] Our work ethic was, yeah, it was, it was pretty intense.

[00:53:26] It was pretty intense.

[00:53:28] And that, and that helped lead us out of it.

[00:53:32] But yeah.

[00:53:33] That's beautiful.

[00:53:34] So we were technically still in the church and still Christian when we got married.

[00:53:38] And my dad gave us this book called His Needs, Her Needs.

[00:53:42] Oh God.

[00:53:42] And it's just as awful as it sounds because.

[00:53:46] It should have been called His Needs on Her Knees.

[00:53:50] I'm just kidding.

[00:53:52] Yeah.

[00:53:52] They're just his needs, really.

[00:53:54] Yeah, really, yeah.

[00:53:55] Her needs were, it amounted to just doing whatever he needed because he's the, he's the man.

[00:54:00] And so we, we got, we took the book and we, we sat, all right, well, I got to tell my dad

[00:54:05] we looked at it.

[00:54:06] So we flipped through and just had the most hilarious night just laughing through each chapter.

[00:54:15] It's like, you need to communicate, really?

[00:54:17] You have to talk to each other.

[00:54:18] And then there's several chapters on sex where it just amounts to, you know, he's going

[00:54:23] to want it all the time.

[00:54:24] Jeez.

[00:54:25] You're not.

[00:54:27] But.

[00:54:28] But it's your duty.

[00:54:29] Yeah.

[00:54:30] You, you can, you can find like identity and pleasure and, and purpose in serving him in

[00:54:36] those needs even if you don't want it.

[00:54:39] I was like, okay, the word pleasure's in there.

[00:54:41] I'm, oh, no.

[00:54:42] Yeah.

[00:54:43] Hard left.

[00:54:43] No, not that kind.

[00:54:44] No.

[00:54:45] It's the pleasure in knowing that you are, uh, you are in accordance with God's system

[00:54:52] of marriage, which is to serve his needs sexually.

[00:54:56] Right.

[00:54:56] You're being a good rib.

[00:54:59] Yeah.

[00:55:00] Yeah.

[00:55:00] Yeah.

[00:55:01] Um, did you ever run into, and it doesn't sound like you did because it seems like you

[00:55:05] guys met at a good time in both of y'all's deconstruction.

[00:55:08] But a lot of Christian men have struggled with kind of the Madonna whore complex.

[00:55:14] Yeah.

[00:55:15] Which is basically, you know, when they marry someone, like she becomes a saint, mother to

[00:55:21] their children, Madonna like, and they have a difficult time, um, wanting to like fuck them.

[00:55:29] Right.

[00:55:30] Like really like get sexually aroused.

[00:55:32] Yeah.

[00:55:32] You never had that problem.

[00:55:33] So, but did men around you have it?

[00:55:35] Like, did you recognize that as an issue?

[00:55:38] So many people I talk to, um, men who, who have this problem.

[00:55:44] Yeah.

[00:55:44] Um, and it's fascinating because, um, and, and when I, you know, I used to teach at Azusa

[00:55:52] Pacific University and a lot of the boys would say things like, well, here in college, there's

[00:55:58] it kind of girls, you date, but then, and you have fun and for them fun could, could mean

[00:56:04] sex, but usually didn't.

[00:56:05] It just meant, you know, fun, like doing fun things together.

[00:56:09] But then you got to settle down and marry someone kind of boring is literally what they would

[00:56:13] say.

[00:56:14] And then there were women on the flip side who were kind of wild in college, you know,

[00:56:19] drank, maybe had sex, felt bad about it, but they did it because they knew.

[00:56:23] And it was explained to me that they knew they could do this now.

[00:56:28] They're sowing their oats and then they're going to, they're going to button up and, and

[00:56:33] become boring so they could get married.

[00:56:36] Oh, geez.

[00:56:36] Yeah.

[00:56:37] And I would blow their minds.

[00:56:38] I would say, what, what if you married the fun person?

[00:56:41] Yeah.

[00:56:42] What if marriage didn't have to be this like death sentence to fun and passion and excitement

[00:56:49] and adventure?

[00:56:51] Yeah.

[00:56:51] What if, and they'd be like, whoa, no, that's not what they're, they felt like that's not

[00:57:00] what they were supposed to want.

[00:57:02] Right.

[00:57:03] And I was tempting them away from God's plan.

[00:57:06] Oh my gosh.

[00:57:07] Just by bringing, bringing that up.

[00:57:08] So they were praying for you after the conversation.

[00:57:11] Yeah.

[00:57:11] They went the next morning just like, God, please change Scott's heart.

[00:57:16] Take the demon away from Scott.

[00:57:18] Yeah.

[00:57:19] That's, yeah, that's now that you point that out, that is so true.

[00:57:23] And I do think, I think a part of me realizes that back in college, like I didn't get, I

[00:57:31] mean, I had, you know, some boys that were interested, but I didn't get a ton of attention.

[00:57:35] And I do think someone told me like, you would be someone that, um, like you're more with like

[00:57:41] wifey material.

[00:57:42] Cause I was more boring and chased and on the worship team and all that, but boys didn't

[00:57:47] want to, you know, have fun with me back in college.

[00:57:50] And I think I kind of flipped.

[00:57:51] Like I went from really boring to, uh, just living.

[00:57:55] Yeah.

[00:57:56] Living my life on wild.

[00:57:57] And I, I, I mean, I'm not, I'm not wild.

[00:58:00] I am still boring, but you know, I'm just enjoying life and, um, yeah.

[00:58:04] Yeah.

[00:58:04] Comparatively taking things as they come and, and, and happier overall.

[00:58:09] And I happened to marry a fellow pastor's kid.

[00:58:13] And so I think both of us had that movement away from, uh, yeah, that very like, uh, chased

[00:58:22] marriable kind of attitude.

[00:58:26] Yeah.

[00:58:27] No, you're, you're fine now.

[00:58:28] You're, you're, you're, you know, we, we travel in the same circles.

[00:58:32] We, we, you, I see you at music events and, you know, let's pray about it.

[00:58:37] We've, we've, we've shared a drink here and there.

[00:58:40] Yeah.

[00:58:41] I, I, I, I am not opposed to a couple of, uh, nice, uh, dry gin martinis.

[00:58:48] So.

[00:58:48] Okay.

[00:58:49] See, I can only do like one drink per hour.

[00:58:53] I have to pace myself.

[00:58:54] One drink per hour.

[00:58:55] I get the Asian glow and it's, it feels like I'm dying.

[00:58:58] You get Asian glow.

[00:59:00] It's like the older especially.

[00:59:01] I, I, I'm curious for you because I do feel like there are certain things that aren't

[00:59:11] purity culture, but kind of run in conjunction with purity culture.

[00:59:15] Alcohol.

[00:59:15] Like alcohol.

[00:59:16] Yeah, exactly.

[00:59:18] Cause it was kind of like, if you get drunk, like a man will take advantage of you and it

[00:59:24] will be your fault.

[00:59:26] And, and that's part of purity culture too.

[00:59:28] Right.

[00:59:28] Right.

[00:59:29] Yeah.

[00:59:30] I mean, yeah.

[00:59:31] A man, a man will take advantage of women, of women in any situation.

[00:59:37] So yeah.

[00:59:39] We, so that's one of those situations where yes, that does happen, but it's not your fault.

[00:59:44] It's still.

[00:59:45] Yeah.

[00:59:46] Like, why isn't that the man's fault every time?

[00:59:48] Um, yeah.

[00:59:49] And that's patriarchy, right?

[00:59:50] That's.

[00:59:51] Yeah.

[00:59:52] Blame the women for everything.

[00:59:54] Yeah.

[00:59:55] Yeah.

[00:59:55] And I still, you know, yeah, I, I, you know, as a pastor's kid, so that probably played a

[01:00:01] bigger role.

[01:00:01] But in terms of what I wore to church, it was like, don't tempt the boys.

[01:00:06] Don't be a temptress.

[01:00:07] Don't be a temptation.

[01:00:08] And it would literally be like a tank top, you know?

[01:00:12] Um, but it, it was, it was actively monitored.

[01:00:16] It was like, if you give them, if you bring them into temptation, it'll be your fault because

[01:00:22] you decided to wear this, this, uh, you know, V neck from American Eagle, like, you know,

[01:00:29] cause them to stumble.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:31] Exactly.

[01:00:32] Causing, causing them to stumble.

[01:00:33] But the onus was always on us, on the girls to not do that.

[01:00:39] Right.

[01:00:40] And you would think that if men are these ordained leaders of the household and of the church,

[01:00:46] and because we're these strong, because we're stronger because we're men, why are they so

[01:00:51] weak when it comes to just seeing some skin?

[01:00:56] Like that's their kryptonite, right?

[01:00:57] That's at APU.

[01:00:59] There was this fame that one of the campus pastors was famous for giving a talk where

[01:01:03] he was talking about this and he was, cause as this Pacific was known as this sort of like

[01:01:08] sexy Christian school.

[01:01:09] Cause the women would wear Hollister and whatever fashion it was.

[01:01:13] And he got on his knees and he starts crying a little, like there was a tear apparently.

[01:01:19] And he gets on his knees and he's like, women help us.

[01:01:23] Oh no.

[01:01:24] Help.

[01:01:25] We, you need to cover up.

[01:01:28] Stop.

[01:01:30] And everyone was so moved and I became immediate enemies with the pastor because it got around

[01:01:36] that I made fun of him in my, all my classes.

[01:01:39] I'm like, get off your, get off your knees and get over yourself.

[01:01:43] Yeah.

[01:01:44] That is not a, that is not a woman problem.

[01:01:46] That is a you problem.

[01:01:47] Yes.

[01:01:48] You are socialized to see, you know, parts, skin.

[01:01:53] Holy shit.

[01:01:55] As sort of permission to, to lust.

[01:01:57] And you know, there's, there's cultures where people are naked and they don't have this problem.

[01:02:02] No, no, no.

[01:02:03] It's, yeah.

[01:02:03] It's a socialization.

[01:02:04] He should go to Europe.

[01:02:05] He should go to a, yeah.

[01:02:06] Like a, you know.

[01:02:07] Get over it real fast.

[01:02:08] Yeah.

[01:02:08] Go to a nude beach.

[01:02:09] Yeah.

[01:02:10] Go to a, a double, a dual gender, you know, open gender bathhouse.

[01:02:14] Yeah.

[01:02:15] No, we go to nude.

[01:02:16] Jerry and I go to nude beaches cause it's been this like liberating thing to just.

[01:02:20] Yeah.

[01:02:21] Be.

[01:02:21] And, and you realize within like five seconds after, it's like not a big deal.

[01:02:26] So it's, it's fine.

[01:02:28] I went to a Hargan hot springs, which, which is like up in NorCal.

[01:02:34] Yeah.

[01:02:35] And, uh, it was the most little, it was, it was all nude and, uh, lots of, uh, very worked

[01:02:42] up couples just kind of floating around in the sulfuric waters.

[01:02:46] But, uh, I've just never seen so many dongs in one day.

[01:02:49] It was a lot of dongs and they, and after a while I went to sleep that night and in my

[01:02:53] head were like dingling dongs, you know, it was, it was not, it was, it was, it was

[01:02:56] not in a sexual way.

[01:02:58] Yeah.

[01:02:58] Just, just kind of, um, they were just presented, you know, and, uh, and they're, they're, you

[01:03:05] know, it really does make you realize that we're just animals.

[01:03:10] And, uh, and I think that's an important part of deprogramming yourself from purity culture

[01:03:17] and, you know, that socialization that, uh, you know, even a whisper of skin is somehow

[01:03:22] sinful.

[01:03:23] Yeah.

[01:03:24] Yeah.

[01:03:24] I used to give the example to my students of learning about Japanese culture, like with

[01:03:30] the kimono.

[01:03:31] Right.

[01:03:31] And the, the sexiest thing, um, a woman can do in these traditional settings, like the

[01:03:39] geishas is to let the sleeve move up her arm.

[01:03:45] Up her wrist.

[01:03:47] That bone.

[01:03:48] That bone.

[01:03:48] And that drives the men in that culture nuts.

[01:03:53] Yeah.

[01:03:53] And the first time I did it, I regretted it.

[01:03:55] I asked a woman, one of my students who had a long sleeve on to stand up and pull her, her,

[01:04:02] her sleeve back.

[01:04:03] Yeah.

[01:04:03] In front of the class.

[01:04:04] Okay.

[01:04:04] And then asked if any of the men were lusting and no one was, it was like, Oh, but then I

[01:04:09] realized now this is problematic.

[01:04:10] I'll just give the example instead of making some woman demonstrate.

[01:04:14] Yeah.

[01:04:15] Yeah.

[01:04:15] Yeah.

[01:04:15] Making.

[01:04:15] Yeah.

[01:04:16] You ruined her day, Scott.

[01:04:17] I'm just kidding.

[01:04:18] I know.

[01:04:19] And then, but then they're all thinking, you know, should I feel guilty for it?

[01:04:22] Yeah.

[01:04:23] Right.

[01:04:23] It's a whole spiral of shame and guilt.

[01:04:25] That's just always ready to go in these cultures.

[01:04:28] But the point was, you know, in that culture that made, that caused lust.

[01:04:35] Yeah.

[01:04:35] Right.

[01:04:35] In our culture, it didn't.

[01:04:37] So if, if that can be learned and if these, if these, these triggers, these impulses can

[01:04:44] be learned, they can be unlearned.

[01:04:46] Yep.

[01:04:46] And maybe the, maybe the men should be spending more time looking into that than policing women.

[01:04:51] And, but policing women is all part of the deal in Christianity.

[01:04:54] That's built into purity culture and patriarchy and Christianity in general.

[01:05:00] It's right.

[01:05:01] It's Eve's fault.

[01:05:02] So therefore.

[01:05:04] It's Eve's fault.

[01:05:04] So everything falls on the woman, even though you love your mother, but you hate her because

[01:05:09] it's so confusing.

[01:05:10] But I do think like, cause I, you know, I think appreciation of the human body is so important

[01:05:16] and beautiful, but like overtly sexualizing parts of the body that aren't sexual or just,

[01:05:22] just overtly sexualizing the feminine form is, is also, it needs to be undone.

[01:05:29] And I think can be, it can be unlearned.

[01:05:31] Yeah.

[01:05:32] And not to say that we, there aren't contexts where that's appropriate to appreciate and

[01:05:38] to, to, to, to, to get turned on, but yeah, but it doesn't have to be this universal thing

[01:05:44] that we're always, it's not something women are doing to you.

[01:05:49] Yeah.

[01:05:50] Unless you're like, I don't know, at a, you know, at a strip club, then yeah, they're trying

[01:05:54] to do that to you, which is good for them.

[01:05:56] Like, and if you enter a strip club, you can, you kind of know why you're there.

[01:06:00] A little bit.

[01:06:01] Yeah.

[01:06:02] It's not like, oh my gosh, she's naked.

[01:06:04] Like, no.

[01:06:04] Oh, and you're paying for the experience.

[01:06:06] What do I, what do I, what do I do?

[01:06:09] Yeah.

[01:06:09] But you know, someone wearing a Hollister tank top is not trying to, you know, to give you

[01:06:15] a boner.

[01:06:15] Like that's just not what the intention is.

[01:06:18] So.

[01:06:19] Yeah.

[01:06:19] On my podcast, we had an episode where we talked about all of this, but the, one of my

[01:06:26] guests said that they had a policy at his school where they discouraged women from wearing

[01:06:32] like messenger bags because the strap went in between their breasts.

[01:06:36] Oh, come on.

[01:06:38] Accentuated the fact that they had breasts.

[01:06:41] You know, it could be wearing a sweater.

[01:06:44] Apparently.

[01:06:45] I've heard about this.

[01:06:47] How gauche.

[01:06:48] Yeah.

[01:06:49] I should Google boobs right now and see what happens.

[01:06:51] I know.

[01:06:51] You should.

[01:06:52] Yeah.

[01:06:53] Well, but messenger bags.

[01:06:55] Yeah.

[01:06:56] Well, any, yeah.

[01:06:57] And those, those style of even a purse.

[01:06:59] Cross, cross body.

[01:07:01] It wasn't like a written policy, but they're really encouraging women not to put some, a

[01:07:07] strap or handle between your breasts because it directed attention there.

[01:07:13] You could be wearing a turtleneck, like a thick wool turtleneck.

[01:07:17] It doesn't matter.

[01:07:17] Yeah.

[01:07:18] If you can see the form.

[01:07:18] Like I could be Steve Jobs in it right now.

[01:07:21] Yeah.

[01:07:22] Yeah.

[01:07:24] Yeah.

[01:07:24] Yeah.

[01:07:25] You could.

[01:07:27] But if I wear the cross body, then people will know I have boobs.

[01:07:32] Yeah.

[01:07:33] And apparently.

[01:07:34] That's pretty intense.

[01:07:35] We're not supposed to know that.

[01:07:36] So.

[01:07:38] Yeah.

[01:07:38] And I guess the sad part of, you know, still unlearning that and, and, um, you know, coming

[01:07:47] out of it, even though mentally and psychologically I, I am free from it and I can talk through all

[01:07:53] these things.

[01:07:55] There are times when I, like, if I'm wearing a bikini at the beach where I feel ugly because

[01:08:03] I'm still not a hundred percent.

[01:08:05] And it's like, you know, sure.

[01:08:07] Maybe it's like body stuff.

[01:08:09] But then at the same time, it's also because I've been instructed to dress a certain way

[01:08:15] for so long that I'm still deeply uncomfortable.

[01:08:19] And, and so is Abe.

[01:08:20] It's something like I, he, he probably struggles more than I do, which is, which is interesting.

[01:08:25] And even now, if I go to my parents' house, um, they, they are, um, my mom has a lot of

[01:08:33] foreign exchange students from China and Taiwan living with them.

[01:08:36] They're just starting to taper away from it.

[01:08:38] But for over 10 years, there's been three to four boys living at my parents' house.

[01:08:43] So if I go over, I'm, I am, I am, they have a pool.

[01:08:47] So I'm told I cannot wear a bikini there.

[01:08:49] So it's still like enforced in my life and I'm not allowed to wear super low cut things

[01:08:55] or if I'm dressed a certain way, my mom will be like, you know, cover up.

[01:08:59] Uh, and so that's still kind of being enforced in my life.

[01:09:02] And so it makes sense that it still affects me even outside of that context.

[01:09:07] Yeah.

[01:09:08] Well, it's still part of your family.

[01:09:09] So it's still kind of close to home.

[01:09:12] Did they let Abe wear a bikini?

[01:09:14] Um, there's always a, there's always a double standard with men.

[01:09:17] It's true.

[01:09:18] It's true.

[01:09:18] I don't think they, I don't think they would mind him wearing, he would look good.

[01:09:22] He would look good in one.

[01:09:23] I'm just saying he would look good in one.

[01:09:25] But yeah, I, I, I think that you're right.

[01:09:28] I think, you know, all these boys are, you know, they run all summer just half naked playing

[01:09:32] basketball or in the pool and, and, and you're right.

[01:09:34] Nothing's really said about it.

[01:09:36] Um, so yeah, there's definitely that double standard.

[01:09:41] Do you have body shame things or are you, are you totally okay with that now?

[01:09:46] Like how, how are you doing?

[01:09:47] Yeah.

[01:09:48] Now I am.

[01:09:48] Um, I try to keep, keep the dad bod at bay and I work out.

[01:09:55] But you do post a shirtless selfie on your birthday every year, right?

[01:09:59] Is that?

[01:09:59] I do.

[01:10:00] Kind of a trend?

[01:10:01] So yeah.

[01:10:01] Yeah.

[01:10:01] One year I did it as a joke and I put like an accompanying poem and I heard through the

[01:10:07] grapevine that some of, some of the, some of our friends were kind of like not offended,

[01:10:12] but annoyed to like, you know, why Scott doing that?

[01:10:16] We don't want to see that.

[01:10:17] Like, and I'm like, really?

[01:10:18] It was just a shirtless picture.

[01:10:20] And you know, like no one ever complains when women, you know, put, post their pictures.

[01:10:27] Like what, why is, and it's like, this is a race thing.

[01:10:30] This is an Asian man.

[01:10:31] You don't, you're not used to seeing Asian men in any, even in a satirical way, you know,

[01:10:36] in a, in a sensual thing.

[01:10:38] And cause I, I don't like that.

[01:10:40] Cause this is pretty crazy rich Asians.

[01:10:42] Yeah, for sure.

[01:10:43] Yeah.

[01:10:44] This, this goes back like five or six years.

[01:10:45] And so then I was like, damn it, I'm just going to do it every year then just to piss

[01:10:50] people off because like, I'm just going to put it out there as long, as long as I look

[01:10:53] all right.

[01:10:54] Uh, uh, I'll work out for the months, a couple months before.

[01:10:58] And, um, and for me, Oh, so you, okay.

[01:11:01] So there's prep, there's prep.

[01:11:03] Well, I work out all year, but I just make sure I go real hard before that.

[01:11:06] And then I feel like it's two things.

[01:11:09] It's, it's a clap back to purity culture to work to her.

[01:11:12] Yeah.

[01:11:12] Yeah.

[01:11:13] We can celebrate our bodies in a healthy way.

[01:11:16] Um, but it's also a race thing where like, Hey, you, you all gotta be, learn how to see

[01:11:21] Asian men as sexual people because we're not just the sidekicks and the comic relief or

[01:11:27] the Kung Fu masters, you know, we can be, we can be right up there with, with other men

[01:11:34] who are, who are more seen, seen more masculine.

[01:11:37] Right.

[01:11:37] And that's again, where like this purity culture conversation kind of intersects with the AAPI

[01:11:43] community.

[01:11:44] Yeah.

[01:11:45] Which I'm sure we will dig into as, as we go forward.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:48] I think so.

[01:11:50] Last question for you, just out of my own curiosity, do you still feel the need to,

[01:11:58] I don't know how to like, okay.

[01:11:59] Cause like my dad, like will not, it's kind of like Mike Pence, although my dad is much,

[01:12:04] my dad's my dad, he's very sweet and he's very kind, but he won't have lunch or he won't

[01:12:09] have a meal with just another single woman.

[01:12:12] Um, like he won't eat with another woman, uh, you know, and out of respect or whatever.

[01:12:17] And, uh, you know, uh, a lot of like Christian men, like they, they'll look away when a woman

[01:12:25] is dressed a certain way.

[01:12:26] Do you still find yourself kind of, um, just like reflexively going back to some of these

[01:12:32] habits ever?

[01:12:34] No, no.

[01:12:35] And I never really was that.

[01:12:38] Most of my best friends have always been women since, since junior high.

[01:12:41] And so, you know, I saw you the other night at far bar and I was having dinner with our

[01:12:47] friend Junko cause we hadn't seen each other in a while and we were catching up and we literally

[01:12:52] talked about this cause she was asking about, you know, Christianity and all that.

[01:12:57] And I was like, yeah.

[01:12:58] And in a lot of Christian circles, just you and me having dinner like this is a big no,

[01:13:03] no.

[01:13:03] Right.

[01:13:04] I, but, um, so no, I, I, I love my friends who are women and, and Jerry's fine with it

[01:13:12] too.

[01:13:12] And she, she goes out with her friends sometimes and it's all, it's all fine.

[01:13:17] We don't own each other.

[01:13:18] And, um, I think all our, our positive relationships add to who we are.

[01:13:24] Um, and you can bring that back to your primary relationship.

[01:13:27] Of course, the things you learn, the things, the perspectives that you gain and it's all good.

[01:13:31] And yeah, it's so, so no, there's, it's, uh, it's good.

[01:13:38] Yeah.

[01:13:39] That's a big, that's a big get.

[01:13:41] Do you feel like you coming out of your, your background is, is that like always a tension?

[01:13:47] I think again, in, I feel that my exposure to purity culture was very different than my

[01:13:57] male counterparts that went through it.

[01:14:00] Yeah.

[01:14:00] Um, and my biggest example is my husband and, uh, cause so he was a pastor's kid.

[01:14:07] He's Korean American.

[01:14:08] And I feel that the brand of Korean American Christianity is a little bit more shame and

[01:14:16] guilt focused.

[01:14:17] Yeah.

[01:14:18] Yeah.

[01:14:18] And it's way more intense, I would say, and very, very black and white.

[01:14:24] Um, and there's just, it's just like, it's like Catholic guilt layered over, you know, Korean

[01:14:31] American culture.

[01:14:32] Um, and so I think for us, we, it's something that is a constant negotiation and push and

[01:14:40] pull because we both, we are both like deconstructing at different paces and, uh, he's a little

[01:14:47] older than I am.

[01:14:49] And so I think even generationally he's like right on the cusp of millennial and Gen X and

[01:14:54] I'm like a mid, a middling millennial.

[01:14:56] Um, and so we have certain conversations that we have to just really have a lot of patience

[01:15:01] for each other and understand that sometimes we can be feeling away about something, even

[01:15:09] though it is irrelevant to the context of both of our lives.

[01:15:12] And so I think leaving room for both the emotion, but also keeping space to have a discussion

[01:15:19] that there's nothing, maybe there's nothing that anyone did wrong, um, but acknowledging

[01:15:25] the feelings that we might have based on our upbringing.

[01:15:27] So that's a constant kind of a washing machine cycle.

[01:15:31] Yeah.

[01:15:32] Yeah.

[01:15:33] I think that's the most important thing is the context of your relationship and the things

[01:15:38] that you bring from your past are, are, are valid and need, and need to be honored, you

[01:15:44] know, even as you're working through and, or if you're working against some of these things,

[01:15:48] um, that's the reality and, and everyone needs, that needs to be honored and that needs to be

[01:15:54] talked about.

[01:15:55] So.

[01:15:55] Yeah.

[01:15:55] And, and again, it's not so cut and dry and I can think, I can, I, I, I experience so

[01:16:05] much more like psychological and emotional freedom, but because I married someone who grew

[01:16:10] up in a very similar context, but maybe even more intense than I, than, than I experienced.

[01:16:15] Um, there are elements of my marriage that reflect, uh, reflect certain things that I saw

[01:16:24] within the purity culture sphere, but it's so different now because, uh, there's no actual

[01:16:29] outline in the sand, but we are just slowly trying to make our way across the phantom borders

[01:16:38] that, um, you know, it's almost like if you were a dog with a shock collar and you had that

[01:16:44] shock collar for however many years.

[01:16:47] And then one day someone takes that shock collar off, but you get near to the border of

[01:16:51] where, you know, the shock collar was that kind of, um, trepidation and, and resistance

[01:16:56] is, is kind of still ingrained in us.

[01:16:59] So that, that's an ongoing, yeah.

[01:17:02] Difficulty that we're working on.

[01:17:04] Yeah.

[01:17:05] I mean, it runs deep.

[01:17:07] I mean, is the goal then to, to get to a place where you have that freedom or, or does

[01:17:13] it matter?

[01:17:14] That's a really good question.

[01:17:15] I feel that the goal is, is changing year to year, month to month.

[01:17:21] So I'm not trying, I think when I was, cause Abe and I've been together 10 years now, um,

[01:17:27] married for five, oh, together almost 11 years.

[01:17:30] So I feel that earlier on, I felt the need to push it further, um, and was met with more

[01:17:40] resistance.

[01:17:40] And I feel that now I feel less of a need for it to go any which way.

[01:17:44] And, um, but, but weirdly then that makes us both more open to small incremental changes

[01:17:52] together, you know?

[01:17:53] And, and I, I think it's interesting too, because, you know, I'm, so I'm eight years

[01:18:00] younger than him.

[01:18:01] And, uh, so a lot of my friends are still single and still really like exploring, like really

[01:18:10] exploring.

[01:18:11] Most of his friends are settled down and married and maybe if they did explore, it's kind of

[01:18:16] the more tail end of it.

[01:18:18] Um, and so I feel like we give each other really interesting perspectives, um, in terms of what

[01:18:27] it is that we want for each other.

[01:18:30] Yeah.

[01:18:31] And that's, that seems to be it because we're pushing back as we talk and as we go forward

[01:18:37] against purity culture.

[01:18:38] But it's not like we're prescribing some kind of hedonistic, you know, swinger lifestyle.

[01:18:44] Sure.

[01:18:44] To me, it's about agency.

[01:18:46] It's like being able to decide for yourself what, what is right and what is, is good for

[01:18:52] you and for your relationship.

[01:18:53] And what, however that, whatever shape that takes, that's it because you got to decide what

[01:18:59] that was for you instead of being feared, fearful and shamed by this, you know, religious

[01:19:05] dogma that, that was so pervasive in our pasts.

[01:19:08] So.

[01:19:09] That's such a good point.

[01:19:10] So yeah.

[01:19:10] Yeah.

[01:19:11] I, I agree with that very, very much so.

[01:19:13] And it, yeah, it's about agency.

[01:19:15] And I think that, that's, that is what's so difficult about leaving purity culture is

[01:19:22] then you, you have to then write your own rules and figure out your own boundaries and

[01:19:27] figure out your own desires.

[01:19:29] And like, you're kind of in free fall.

[01:19:32] And so, like we said at the beginning, it's like, I do think that a lot of people can use

[01:19:36] purity culture as a cop out for things that they're not emotionally and physically and psychologically

[01:19:41] ready to deal with yet.

[01:19:43] But then the, the damage that is kind of, you know, wrought by purity culture, it's not

[01:19:50] something that goes away easily.

[01:19:51] Like the, the, the marks are on you for a good long time, hopefully not in perpetuity,

[01:19:58] but for a good long time.

[01:20:00] Yeah.

[01:20:00] Maybe, maybe forever in the sense that, I don't know, there's always that comparison to how

[01:20:06] you were as compared to what you are now, whatever that form that takes.

[01:20:10] It's true.

[01:20:10] And so we measure ourselves based on how far we've come or the progress we've made or

[01:20:17] or the regress we've made.

[01:20:19] Yeah.

[01:20:20] And so, yeah, it, maybe it's always present, but it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have

[01:20:25] to determine how we feel about ourselves and maybe it has less gravitational force on

[01:20:31] you.

[01:20:32] Yeah.

[01:20:32] Right.

[01:20:32] Yeah.

[01:20:33] Yeah.

[01:20:33] So nothing wrong with hedonism and swingers, but like it's, that's not the goal, right?

[01:20:38] That's, it's, it's a, yeah.

[01:20:40] God bless him.

[01:20:43] But yeah.

[01:20:44] Yeah.

[01:20:44] But it's more just, yeah, being able to choose what for yourself, what, what works for you.

[01:20:50] I love that.

[01:20:52] Well, this has been so great, Scott.

[01:20:54] What, what a first episode.

[01:20:55] Yeah.

[01:20:56] We'll record our next episode at a swinger party.

[01:21:00] In my head, swinger, that, that sounds like a Cirque de Soleil thing to me.

[01:21:05] Just swinging, you know?

[01:21:07] Yeah.

[01:21:08] I'm just kidding.

[01:21:09] Yeah.

[01:21:09] We'll record on, we'll go to a playground and just swing and record.

[01:21:12] Yeah, exactly.

[01:21:13] Yeah.

[01:21:13] Yeah.

[01:21:13] We, we, we, we.

[01:21:19] So, well, thanks.

[01:21:20] Yeah.

[01:21:22] Thanks y'all for listening.

[01:21:25] We've had such a blast kind of preparing this episode and preparing episodes for the future.

[01:21:30] We can't wait to keep sharing stuff with all of you until then, please send us a message.

[01:21:35] I don't know where you can send it yet, but let us know what your thoughts.

[01:21:39] Yeah.

[01:21:39] Do, do we have somewhere we can send people to Scott?

[01:21:43] At the moment, no, but I'm, I'm envisioning an Instagram account and.

[01:21:49] Heck yeah.

[01:21:50] We have a discord.

[01:21:51] We have a, we're part of the Dauntless Media Collective on discord.

[01:21:54] Oh, cool.

[01:21:54] And we'll have a page there so people can find us.

[01:21:57] Yeah.

[01:21:58] And, um, uh, we, we're both on Instagram.

[01:22:00] I'm at, at Prisca music, Prisca with a K, music with a K.

[01:22:04] So, and the Scott's definitely on the socials as well.

[01:22:08] And, uh, so DM us.

[01:22:09] R.S. Okamoto.

[01:22:10] Yeah.

[01:22:11] R.S. Okamoto.

[01:22:12] We'll have it in the show notes.

[01:22:13] Yeah.

[01:22:14] Yeah.

[01:22:15] So send us a message.

[01:22:16] Let us know your thoughts.

[01:22:17] Check out our other podcasts and, um, we're excited to come back for another episode of

[01:22:21] Horny Chow.

[01:22:24] So.

[01:22:25] Put on your best tie and your Catholic skirt.

[01:22:29] Sit up straight and try not to blur.

[01:22:36] Little thoughts hide the pew side flirts.

[01:22:44] Fucking ain't worth it.