Horny Chapel Episode 4: Marriage and Relationships After Purity Culture

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[00:00:07] Thanks for listening to this podcast from the Dauntless Media Collective. If you enjoy what you're hearing, we think you'll also enjoy some of our other shows, which you can find by visiting dauntless.fm. Here's a sample from one of them.

[00:00:20] All right. Okay. Welcome to the Thereafter Podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:00:29] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities, and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:00:37] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism. But we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:00:46] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:00:55] Come along as we explore the all-too-often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith, and the life thereafter.

[00:01:04] I'm Priska, and welcome to The Horny Chapel, a limited series podcast where Scott Okamoto and I dive headfirst into the wild, wild world of evangelical purity culture.

[00:01:28] In each episode, we discuss purity culture in detail, highlighting both its absurdity and the damage caused by an abstinence-only rhetoric.

[00:01:36] We explore how our AAPI cultural influences, combined with the misogynistic sexual miseducation from the church, led to a unique brand of repression.

[00:01:45] But don't fret, dear listener. We also share how we found our way to a sex-positive mindset after breaking free.

[00:01:51] Hi, everybody. Welcome to The Horny Chapel.

[00:01:55] It's chapel and it's horny.

[00:01:57] Close the door behind you because you can come in, but you can never leave.

[00:02:01] Wash your hands.

[00:02:02] Wash your hands.

[00:02:03] It's going to get messy.

[00:02:04] Yeah, get in that holy water. Just dump it all over yourself, you heathens.

[00:02:09] Does holy water, is it soft water or is it hard water?

[00:02:13] That I don't know. I think it's contact solution.

[00:02:16] Oh.

[00:02:16] It helps you see things clearly.

[00:02:19] Yeah. Don't drink it. You'll get the shits.

[00:02:22] Good tip.

[00:02:23] Good tip, right?

[00:02:24] I remember when I got baptized, a whole bunch of water went up my nose and swallowed some.

[00:02:28] And I wondered, like, how old is this water?

[00:02:31] Oh, you didn't hold your nose, huh?

[00:02:33] I did, but for some, I forget.

[00:02:35] I think in the moment it just sort of, yeah.

[00:02:40] I came up and I let go of my nose as I was still coming up.

[00:02:45] No, the Holy Spirit took over.

[00:02:47] Yeah, the Holy Spirit entered my nostrils in the form of gross pond water.

[00:02:53] Oh.

[00:02:53] It was a pool, tub.

[00:02:55] Yeah.

[00:02:55] On the stage.

[00:02:57] Right, like behind the pulpit.

[00:02:59] Yeah.

[00:02:59] Okay.

[00:03:01] Similar format.

[00:03:02] Yeah, I felt a lot of nerves because I was the pastor's daughter, you know, getting baptized.

[00:03:06] Yeah, you gotta do it good.

[00:03:08] Yeah.

[00:03:08] And I think I was, it was one of those things where I really, I asked for it.

[00:03:13] You know, I was like, please, please, please.

[00:03:14] I think they had an age limit of maybe 11 or 12.

[00:03:18] And I think I was nine, maybe 10.

[00:03:20] Oh, the pastor's kid exception.

[00:03:22] Yeah.

[00:03:22] And so it had to get approved, you know.

[00:03:25] But I wanted to, I wanted to do it the best.

[00:03:28] Because I was, I converted at two years old.

[00:03:30] So I had to do it the best and the brightest.

[00:03:33] And so I got an exception, an exemption to get baptized early.

[00:03:38] And I remember being really nervous.

[00:03:40] I knew I had to hold my nose.

[00:03:42] I practiced in my bathtub.

[00:03:44] What?

[00:03:45] You practiced?

[00:03:46] Practiced.

[00:03:46] Being baptized.

[00:03:47] Just like how you were going to look when you came up.

[00:03:49] Yeah.

[00:03:50] And what, you know, I realized you have to tie your hair back as a, you know, as a little

[00:03:54] girl.

[00:03:54] Yeah.

[00:03:56] And I had butterflies in my stomach.

[00:03:58] It was very overwhelming.

[00:04:00] I remember it was very overwhelming.

[00:04:03] That was probably the Holy Spirit.

[00:04:05] It was, yeah.

[00:04:06] Yeah.

[00:04:06] Yeah, totally.

[00:04:07] And I felt a lot of pressure to, I don't know, it was very, it wasn't explicitly said

[00:04:13] to me, but I felt a lot of pressure to perform well as a pastor's kid.

[00:04:18] Like, did you practice your facial expressions of like how imbued with the spirit you were

[00:04:25] in that moment?

[00:04:26] Honestly, probably.

[00:04:27] I can't necessarily remember details like that, but I was a pretty neurotic kid, so I

[00:04:31] wouldn't be surprised if that was something I focused on.

[00:04:34] Weirdly, it's, it was like a, it's similar to O-Face, but you don't know that at nine.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:40] Yeah.

[00:04:40] So you don't have that reference.

[00:04:41] The ho, the ho face, Holy Spirit face.

[00:04:45] The holy spirit.

[00:04:47] The holy face.

[00:04:47] Ho.

[00:04:48] Ho, I know.

[00:04:49] It was similar with speaking in tongues.

[00:04:51] Right.

[00:04:52] It's, you know, you kind of, you get enraptured, you know, and I think it is very similar to

[00:04:58] making fake sex sounds.

[00:04:59] Wait, did you speak in tongues?

[00:05:00] I, I, I think to be 100% honest, I don't know because I knew that I had to.

[00:05:08] We would have these retreats and on the last night, it was like speaking in tongues nights

[00:05:12] and it was like, you know, they, they put you in a, in a room with like 80 other kids.

[00:05:17] The mood light is set just right.

[00:05:20] Lots of worship music is going.

[00:05:21] Yeah.

[00:05:21] One by one all around you, kids are begin speaking in tongues.

[00:05:25] And as the pastor's kid, I realized within the last 45 minutes of this night, I was like,

[00:05:31] I need to fucking get there.

[00:05:33] I don't know what I need to do, but I need to fucking get there.

[00:05:35] I can't leave this retreat without speaking in tongues.

[00:05:39] And so I, I, I can't say all of it was faked, but I think that getting into an enraptured

[00:05:46] state of mind is contagious and it is a conscious decision that you make.

[00:05:51] And I think, I don't know if you ever watched the mentalist Darren Brown for something.

[00:05:55] He's like from the UK.

[00:05:56] I, you know, I don't really know too much about his politics, but I used to watch him

[00:05:59] back in college and he did this, um, tour in which he does a full on revival, like a

[00:06:08] replicate, like a replication of a revival, a healing revival, a spiritual revival without

[00:06:14] any religious pretense.

[00:06:16] It's all just, um, how that, uh, state of mind is contagious.

[00:06:22] Whoa.

[00:06:22] Yeah.

[00:06:23] It's, it's pretty, it's a pretty cool special.

[00:06:25] Um, but, but so I, I'm not saying I didn't, but I'm also saying that I didn't.

[00:06:32] Right.

[00:06:32] Yeah.

[00:06:33] Cause the brain is a powerful thing, right?

[00:06:35] You can convince yourself that you're, what you're feeling is the Holy Spirit.

[00:06:41] And then the gibberish coming out of your mouth is some kind of divinely inspired message

[00:06:47] for the world or praise to, to God.

[00:06:50] Well, and it can kind of be like sex.

[00:06:53] Like you fake it till you make it like all the sounds that you, you know, you learn from

[00:06:57] Nice transition.

[00:06:58] Right.

[00:07:00] That's.

[00:07:00] Ooh.

[00:07:01] Best in the biz.

[00:07:02] Just like sex.

[00:07:03] Really?

[00:07:04] It is kind of like, cause when you first start having sex, like things don't feel good right

[00:07:07] away.

[00:07:08] I mean, they can feel overwhelming, but you kind of make the noises you feel that you're

[00:07:13] supposed to make until things start feeling.

[00:07:16] So there's like a performative aspect to it of this is what I should sound like, or this

[00:07:20] is what I should.

[00:07:22] I think so.

[00:07:23] I think when you're first having sex.

[00:07:24] Sure.

[00:07:25] You know?

[00:07:25] Um, but Scott, can I ask you, did you get married in a church?

[00:07:28] Yeah.

[00:07:29] The church I grew up with just in down the street there.

[00:07:32] How was that?

[00:07:34] It was weird.

[00:07:35] We were still Christian.

[00:07:37] So I got, I kept in touch with my like junior high pastor.

[00:07:40] I actually worked for him.

[00:07:41] So old pastor Dave did the ceremony as well, as well as like, it was a joint pastor thing

[00:07:47] with another friend who was like a counselor in high school and he became a chaplain.

[00:07:53] And so it was a fun day.

[00:07:55] Yeah.

[00:07:56] It was, and it was kind of cool to go full circle to go back to the church I grew up

[00:08:01] at to get married.

[00:08:02] Because you weren't attending that church at that time.

[00:08:05] No.

[00:08:05] We were living in San Francisco at the time.

[00:08:07] Oh.

[00:08:07] I might've still been considered a member, but, um, yeah, it felt weird though.

[00:08:14] Like if I had to do it over, I would, we would go to Vegas and, and have like, uh, Marilyn

[00:08:21] Monroe marry us.

[00:08:22] Um, but okay.

[00:08:23] So Marilyn Monroe would marry you.

[00:08:25] You would be wearing the skirt.

[00:08:26] Someone campy like that.

[00:08:28] Yeah.

[00:08:28] Like we were going to like at our 30, 20 year reunion, 20 year anniversary.

[00:08:33] We were joking about, we're going to go to Vegas and renew our vows.

[00:08:36] And all our friends are like, oh, you're going to probably gonna have an orgy too.

[00:08:39] I'm like, well, is there that nothing wrong with that by the way.

[00:08:43] Like, do we really give off orgy vibes?

[00:08:45] And they're like, yeah, kind of.

[00:08:46] I think it just means people want to, people find you guys very sexually interesting, intriguing,

[00:08:53] reliable.

[00:08:53] That's nice.

[00:08:54] Yeah.

[00:08:55] Cause we, you know, we're, we're going to talk about marriage today.

[00:08:58] Yeah.

[00:08:58] And when you get married, you don't feel, well, I don't know.

[00:09:02] I don't know if I felt like, like in the game, like desirable or like where it's even in

[00:09:07] the, a possibility that someone, cause I remember when I hearing people say, oh, women love married

[00:09:14] men.

[00:09:14] Oh, right.

[00:09:15] And I don't, really?

[00:09:16] Cause.

[00:09:17] Yeah.

[00:09:18] I don't know if that's true.

[00:09:19] I think as humans, we like what's unavailable.

[00:09:23] Yeah.

[00:09:23] Maybe I think.

[00:09:24] So what kind of person likes them?

[00:09:26] Someone you know is married.

[00:09:28] Like, wow, that's, that's a trip.

[00:09:29] That's.

[00:09:30] Yeah.

[00:09:30] I guess.

[00:09:31] I mean, I think there's something about the state of someone, a man being married means

[00:09:37] they're stable enough.

[00:09:38] You think, you assume.

[00:09:39] You think, you assume.

[00:09:41] This is just, you know, the assumption.

[00:09:42] Yeah.

[00:09:43] Yeah.

[00:09:43] Yeah.

[00:09:43] They're, they're safe.

[00:09:44] They, they can take, they can commit to someone, you know, they can be sane enough

[00:09:50] to be in someone's life for a prolonged period of time.

[00:09:54] Like, you know, there's all these assumptions.

[00:09:55] Okay.

[00:09:55] There's some like markers of something desirable.

[00:10:00] Yeah.

[00:10:00] And also I think, I mean, again, these are the assumptions.

[00:10:04] It's not the truth of the matter, but.

[00:10:06] Well, we're going to blow all that shit up today, but.

[00:10:08] Exactly.

[00:10:09] But I think that there's a sense of safety that you might have because you feel that they're

[00:10:13] not gunning for you sexually.

[00:10:16] Oh.

[00:10:17] You know, so, so as a, as a woman, like I would feel at times like, okay, yeah, I feel

[00:10:23] a little safer.

[00:10:24] Like we both can keep boundaries and it's not going to get weird because, you know, they're

[00:10:30] not, they're not actively seeking another sexual partner.

[00:10:33] Yeah.

[00:10:33] That you know of.

[00:10:34] That you know of.

[00:10:35] Yeah, exactly.

[00:10:36] But today we wanted to talk about marriage.

[00:10:39] Scott sent me this clip this week of, you know, a Christian couple who the wife is eight

[00:10:46] months pregnant and she gets into an argument with her husband about walking the dogs and

[00:10:52] giving the dogs medicine because she's eight months pregnant.

[00:10:55] She didn't want to touch the medicine.

[00:10:57] And what unfolds after that, Scott?

[00:11:01] Badness.

[00:11:02] Badness.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:03] Yeah.

[00:11:03] Basically.

[00:11:05] It was like kept it on a ring camera.

[00:11:07] So he doesn't know he's being recorded.

[00:11:09] Yeah.

[00:11:09] And so you get a real glimpse into this marriage and it's, it just, it made me a little sick

[00:11:14] because he's, he's yelling at her.

[00:11:18] He's accusing her of all these things.

[00:11:19] And really it's just because he's lazy.

[00:11:21] Yeah.

[00:11:22] He doesn't want to do anything to help out around the house because that's her job.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:25] And he's calling her names.

[00:11:27] He's threatening her.

[00:11:29] And this is all over just like day to day innocuous stuff, you know, while, you know,

[00:11:33] giving the dog the medicine or.

[00:11:34] Yeah.

[00:11:35] She's trying to get out so she can go shopping, you know, to provide food for the house.

[00:11:40] Right.

[00:11:41] And the things that he says to her is just chilling.

[00:11:46] It's, it's so abusive and toxic and, and threatening of, of like violence.

[00:11:53] And then he says, basically saying whatever I do, it's your fault.

[00:11:58] That kind of vibe.

[00:11:59] And it's just like, oh, you just want to tell her to run.

[00:12:03] And it's kind of, some of it was like coded Christian language as well.

[00:12:07] Yeah.

[00:12:07] Which is kind of why it came up.

[00:12:08] Right.

[00:12:09] Right.

[00:12:10] Submitting of doing what you're told.

[00:12:13] How, how is this going to make me look, you know, because he's the head of the household,

[00:12:18] quote unquote.

[00:12:19] So.

[00:12:19] And he's a fairly well known person.

[00:12:22] Like we don't want to give any publicity to this.

[00:12:26] Yeah.

[00:12:27] Person.

[00:12:27] But that's the vibe that we're getting.

[00:12:29] And, you know, I think we've traded a few of these memes of like.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:33] Toxic Christian couples, you know.

[00:12:35] Yeah.

[00:12:35] Yeah.

[00:12:36] And acting this complementarianism of man head, man rules, wife submits.

[00:12:42] Yeah.

[00:12:44] Yeah.

[00:12:44] And so we're going to get into that and sort of talk about what the Bible says, even though

[00:12:50] we're not biblical scholars.

[00:12:51] We'll put that right here.

[00:12:52] First and foremost.

[00:12:53] Yeah.

[00:12:53] I've tried to forget most of the Bible.

[00:12:55] Yeah.

[00:12:55] In the last 20 years.

[00:12:57] I've drank enough to forget all sorts of things.

[00:12:59] Like what are the attitudes?

[00:13:00] I still don't remember.

[00:13:01] If only you could target the brain cells you're trying to kill.

[00:13:04] Yeah.

[00:13:05] When you smoke a joint or.

[00:13:06] Right.

[00:13:07] Have a drink.

[00:13:07] I know.

[00:13:08] Just those those those Bible brain cells.

[00:13:11] Just don't eat them.

[00:13:12] I know.

[00:13:13] Sometimes they're you know, they get down into the subcontaneous fat and they never leave

[00:13:17] you.

[00:13:17] They're there forever.

[00:13:19] Yeah.

[00:13:20] But yeah.

[00:13:21] I think it's important to note that we do not want to give people like this too much

[00:13:27] shine and we don't want to camp on it too long, to be fair.

[00:13:30] And also good to kind of indicate that when Christian doctrine, if it's not offered in a

[00:13:38] in a healthy, balanced way, I don't know if there is a healthy, balanced way, but it

[00:13:42] can be taken to such far extremes because of its vagueness, because of its how open it

[00:13:48] is to interpretation and because of how few actual guidelines there are for how to act

[00:13:56] within a marriage other than the man being the head of the household and the woman being

[00:14:01] in submission.

[00:14:02] Women or women like like wives.

[00:14:06] Yeah.

[00:14:06] Plural.

[00:14:07] Yeah.

[00:14:07] Which is biblical.

[00:14:09] Like Leah and Rachel.

[00:14:11] Yeah.

[00:14:13] Yeah.

[00:14:13] Talk about an awkward little family dinner.

[00:14:16] You know, that's.

[00:14:17] Yeah.

[00:14:17] It's a lot there.

[00:14:18] My husband was in a band in the 90s and they came out, they're coming out with an album.

[00:14:24] I think it's called Songs for Leah.

[00:14:26] And it's just kind of like in that dynamic.

[00:14:28] Hey, Leah, you're still loved.

[00:14:29] You're still beautiful.

[00:14:30] We feel you, Leah.

[00:14:31] You're not a castaway.

[00:14:32] Yeah.

[00:14:32] It's actually some of the songs on it are so beautiful.

[00:14:35] Aw.

[00:14:36] Because that's when he was still Christian.

[00:14:38] It was.

[00:14:38] Yeah.

[00:14:38] It was a Christian band.

[00:14:40] Christian band.

[00:14:40] But in a way, kind of deconstructing from the mainstream Christianity.

[00:14:47] Because that's not the takeaway of that when they teach that in church or Sunday school.

[00:14:52] It's not like, oh, poor Leah.

[00:14:54] It's just like the man is the center.

[00:14:56] He's trying to get.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:58] He's trying to get Rachel, right?

[00:14:59] Or he's trying to get.

[00:15:00] He wants Rachel.

[00:15:01] He wants Rachel.

[00:15:01] Yeah.

[00:15:02] He gets Leah.

[00:15:03] Yeah.

[00:15:04] Gets tricked.

[00:15:05] Oops.

[00:15:06] He still has sex with her.

[00:15:08] He still.

[00:15:08] Has like a bunch of kids.

[00:15:10] Yeah.

[00:15:10] And then there's like a hand.

[00:15:11] Ten kids, right?

[00:15:12] There's like a maid thrown in for.

[00:15:14] Oh, right.

[00:15:15] There's a handmaid.

[00:15:16] Yeah.

[00:15:16] Handmaid.

[00:15:17] Yeah.

[00:15:17] A little threesome action there.

[00:15:18] That's right.

[00:15:19] It's.

[00:15:19] And no judgment.

[00:15:20] But.

[00:15:21] It was how it was.

[00:15:22] Was it consensual?

[00:15:24] Rachel had a tough time conceiving, right?

[00:15:26] After all that.

[00:15:27] Yeah.

[00:15:27] The body is a temple.

[00:15:29] But.

[00:15:30] Interesting.

[00:15:31] You know.

[00:15:32] Interesting stuff.

[00:15:32] Not sure what the message of the story is anymore.

[00:15:34] But.

[00:15:35] Yeah.

[00:15:35] I think.

[00:15:36] I think I lost those brain cells.

[00:15:38] Well, I think that.

[00:15:39] It was that.

[00:15:40] You know.

[00:15:41] Rachel is the beloved.

[00:15:42] And that's.

[00:15:42] Yeah.

[00:15:43] Kind of.

[00:15:43] You know.

[00:15:43] Like the church or something.

[00:15:45] The bride.

[00:15:46] Of Christ.

[00:15:47] Or whatever.

[00:15:47] All right.

[00:15:48] I'm not.

[00:15:49] I'm not 100% sure.

[00:15:50] Yeah.

[00:15:50] No.

[00:15:50] Sounds good.

[00:15:50] But Leah deserves her shine.

[00:15:52] Right.

[00:15:52] 100%.

[00:15:53] Now we're back to that.

[00:15:54] So.

[00:15:54] Yeah.

[00:15:55] Because she apparently was not as comely.

[00:15:59] Not as attractive.

[00:16:01] Yeah.

[00:16:01] She was.

[00:16:03] And I can.

[00:16:03] You know.

[00:16:04] Beauty standards.

[00:16:06] Changing as they do.

[00:16:07] Yeah.

[00:16:07] So.

[00:16:08] You know.

[00:16:08] She's probably super hot.

[00:16:10] Yeah.

[00:16:10] Like now.

[00:16:11] To us.

[00:16:12] If only we could go back.

[00:16:14] But.

[00:16:15] So Scott.

[00:16:15] Did your parents live in a Christian marriage?

[00:16:19] They did eventually.

[00:16:21] Oh.

[00:16:22] Interesting.

[00:16:24] They were very.

[00:16:25] Very.

[00:16:25] They didn't talk much about their dating life.

[00:16:28] Because they weren't Christian.

[00:16:30] Oh.

[00:16:30] And they got married.

[00:16:31] But you know.

[00:16:32] They're still conservative folks.

[00:16:34] You know.

[00:16:34] Yeah.

[00:16:34] From a deeply Japanese American family.

[00:16:36] My dad was in the army a couple times.

[00:16:38] Oh wow.

[00:16:39] And you know.

[00:16:40] It's the 60s.

[00:16:41] You know.

[00:16:41] When they got married.

[00:16:42] And so.

[00:16:44] They missed out on all the fun stuff of the 60s.

[00:16:46] Oh.

[00:16:47] Because it was like late 60s.

[00:16:48] That was a little more swingy.

[00:16:49] Right?

[00:16:50] Yeah.

[00:16:50] And just.

[00:16:51] Yeah.

[00:16:51] Like the whole rise of rock and roll.

[00:16:53] And counterculture.

[00:16:54] You know.

[00:16:55] They weren't anywhere near that.

[00:16:56] So.

[00:16:57] They were more the conservative side of the 60s.

[00:17:01] Fighting against.

[00:17:02] Yeah.

[00:17:03] But when they finally became like evangelical Christians in the 70s.

[00:17:07] When I was a kid.

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:09] They suddenly were.

[00:17:11] You know.

[00:17:11] I was too young to notice any changes in their marriage.

[00:17:14] Oh.

[00:17:14] Interesting.

[00:17:15] If there were any.

[00:17:16] Yeah.

[00:17:17] But they definitely got.

[00:17:19] More the messages of the Dobsons.

[00:17:22] And.

[00:17:23] Okay.

[00:17:23] That kind of thing.

[00:17:25] Which.

[00:17:26] Like we did talk about in episode two.

[00:17:28] Kind of does map onto Japanese.

[00:17:31] Maybe patriarchal culture a bit.

[00:17:32] Yeah.

[00:17:33] They blend well.

[00:17:34] Right.

[00:17:34] So what was your parents.

[00:17:36] Like what was their dynamic?

[00:17:37] What did that look like?

[00:17:38] Oh.

[00:17:38] Definitely.

[00:17:39] Manhead.

[00:17:40] Of household.

[00:17:41] And what did that look like?

[00:17:43] Day to day.

[00:17:43] Like what does that.

[00:17:44] Because I feel like it's something that's so oft repeated.

[00:17:47] But.

[00:17:48] You know.

[00:17:49] Break that down for us.

[00:17:50] What did that look like?

[00:17:51] It looked like.

[00:17:54] The.

[00:17:54] Like leave it to beaver.

[00:17:56] Okay.

[00:17:56] Stay at home mom.

[00:17:59] Nothing wrong with that.

[00:18:00] But you know.

[00:18:01] But it's when.

[00:18:02] It's like expected of you to stay at home.

[00:18:04] Where it's like forced upon you.

[00:18:05] When you're relegated to the kitchen.

[00:18:07] Not.

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:08] Yeah.

[00:18:08] It's not a choice.

[00:18:10] And my parents got along.

[00:18:11] You know.

[00:18:12] As far as a.

[00:18:12] As a couple.

[00:18:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:14] But they definitely had.

[00:18:17] A little conflict.

[00:18:18] Like.

[00:18:18] The reason I know how to cook.

[00:18:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:21] Is because.

[00:18:23] I.

[00:18:24] Apparently.

[00:18:25] It was.

[00:18:25] The family story is.

[00:18:26] I.

[00:18:26] I said to my mom.

[00:18:28] Boys don't cook.

[00:18:29] Uh-oh.

[00:18:30] And her.

[00:18:31] Not having grown up in all this.

[00:18:34] Was like.

[00:18:35] Her response was to.

[00:18:36] Bring me to the kitchen.

[00:18:37] And immediately start showing me how to cook.

[00:18:39] Oh.

[00:18:39] I like your mom.

[00:18:40] Oh.

[00:18:40] That is.

[00:18:41] That is saucy.

[00:18:42] Yeah.

[00:18:42] And I.

[00:18:43] I had picked that up from my dad.

[00:18:45] Just observed.

[00:18:46] They never told me this.

[00:18:48] Yeah.

[00:18:48] But observing the roles of man and woman.

[00:18:51] Huh.

[00:18:52] I.

[00:18:53] At age four or five.

[00:18:54] Just blurted out.

[00:18:55] Boys don't cook.

[00:18:56] As some kind of like flex.

[00:18:58] You know.

[00:18:58] Like.

[00:18:58] Yeah.

[00:18:58] I'm a boy.

[00:18:59] I don't need to cook.

[00:19:00] Fuck.

[00:19:01] And my mom's response was to teach me how to cook.

[00:19:04] And what do you.

[00:19:05] Which I liked.

[00:19:06] Yeah.

[00:19:06] What do you glean from that now?

[00:19:08] Uh.

[00:19:09] That.

[00:19:09] You don't have to be overtly.

[00:19:13] Like.

[00:19:13] Saying these things.

[00:19:15] Uh.

[00:19:15] That the kids are watching.

[00:19:17] How your parents interact.

[00:19:19] Yeah.

[00:19:19] And the dynamics that they have with each other.

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:22] And their roles in the house.

[00:19:24] Um.

[00:19:24] Because yeah.

[00:19:24] Like I said.

[00:19:25] My dad never sat me down and said.

[00:19:26] Look son.

[00:19:27] You're a boy.

[00:19:28] Uh huh.

[00:19:28] You should never cook.

[00:19:30] Right.

[00:19:30] But you just.

[00:19:31] You absorbed it.

[00:19:32] It was just something I observed.

[00:19:33] Yeah.

[00:19:34] What do you.

[00:19:34] What do you.

[00:19:35] You know.

[00:19:36] Because they ended up in that kind of James Dobson-esque.

[00:19:38] You know.

[00:19:39] Yeah.

[00:19:39] It didn't help that they lived up the street from James Dobson himself.

[00:19:42] You know.

[00:19:42] Who would.

[00:19:43] Proximity.

[00:19:43] Bring his books over.

[00:19:44] So osmosis played a big factor.

[00:19:46] Yeah.

[00:19:46] But they ate those books up.

[00:19:47] So.

[00:19:48] Right.

[00:19:48] There was like a whole.

[00:19:50] Uh.

[00:19:50] Bookshelf.

[00:19:51] And we had.

[00:19:52] We had all of them.

[00:19:53] Wow.

[00:19:54] But the fact that your mom didn't.

[00:19:56] Enforce it.

[00:19:57] And actually kind of.

[00:19:58] Pushed against it.

[00:19:59] Like what do you.

[00:20:00] How do you read her.

[00:20:01] Decision now.

[00:20:03] Well it's like.

[00:20:03] What I see in a lot of Christian women.

[00:20:06] Uh.

[00:20:06] You know.

[00:20:06] Before we started recording.

[00:20:07] You were talking about like.

[00:20:08] When men and women go off on their own.

[00:20:10] Yeah.

[00:20:10] At a conference.

[00:20:11] Or a.

[00:20:12] Sunday.

[00:20:13] Right.

[00:20:13] There's like a.

[00:20:14] There's every conference.

[00:20:15] On like the second or third afternoon.

[00:20:17] They kind of separate the genders.

[00:20:19] And someone speaks to each of them.

[00:20:21] Yeah.

[00:20:21] And what I have.

[00:20:22] When I have been.

[00:20:24] Privy.

[00:20:24] To these conversations.

[00:20:26] There's like a sense of humor.

[00:20:27] The women have.

[00:20:28] Of like.

[00:20:28] Oh those men.

[00:20:30] You know.

[00:20:30] Uh.

[00:20:31] We all know who the smart ones are.

[00:20:33] And yet they're still going to like.

[00:20:35] Acknowledge that.

[00:20:36] And still talk about how to submit.

[00:20:38] Yeah.

[00:20:38] Because that's.

[00:20:39] As the Lord commands.

[00:20:40] Right.

[00:20:40] So there's always this like.

[00:20:43] Understanding that.

[00:20:44] The Lord set this up.

[00:20:46] God set this.

[00:20:47] Hierarchy up.

[00:20:48] That they have to follow.

[00:20:50] But.

[00:20:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:51] The men don't know shit.

[00:20:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:20:53] You know.

[00:20:53] We know more.

[00:20:54] We understand more.

[00:20:56] And so it's their.

[00:20:57] They talk about it like.

[00:20:58] That's their responsibility.

[00:21:00] Yeah.

[00:21:00] To make up for the shortcomings of their men.

[00:21:02] And so they can help them lead the household.

[00:21:05] Right.

[00:21:05] And that kind of vibe.

[00:21:07] So why then do you feel like your mom wanted you to know how to cook?

[00:21:11] My mom kind of has like a.

[00:21:15] A secret.

[00:21:16] Rebellious side.

[00:21:17] Okay.

[00:21:18] Okay.

[00:21:19] Yeah.

[00:21:19] That makes sense.

[00:21:20] Yeah.

[00:21:20] She wanted to kind of go against the grain of maybe what she was hearing in church or experiencing.

[00:21:24] Yeah.

[00:21:24] Because before she became a Christian she had read like all the progressive like parenting

[00:21:29] books of the 70s like Dr. Spock.

[00:21:31] I see.

[00:21:32] Shit like that.

[00:21:33] And so she never ever fully jumped into the evangelical mindset even though by appearances

[00:21:41] she did.

[00:21:42] Like she will never you know speak against my dad in public.

[00:21:47] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:47] So at church she is the quintessential trad wife.

[00:21:52] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:53] At home.

[00:21:54] Yeah.

[00:21:55] She's giving him hell.

[00:21:56] Oh really.

[00:21:56] It's getting worse as they get older.

[00:21:58] They're like always like it's like watching five-year-olds at the playground.

[00:22:01] They snipe at each other.

[00:22:03] Oh yeah.

[00:22:03] It's it's their love language.

[00:22:07] Well I'm sure she reached that age of having no more fucks to give.

[00:22:10] So I think that that makes sense.

[00:22:12] But were there things your mother was not allowed to do?

[00:22:17] Probably.

[00:22:18] Like I never remember it being so harsh like she can't even make decisions about like the

[00:22:22] house and has to run everything by my dad.

[00:22:25] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:25] They definitely took the complementarianism thing to a very practical end in that her

[00:22:32] dominion was the house and and raising me and my brother.

[00:22:36] Right.

[00:22:36] And my dad was a was participating.

[00:22:39] He was he did Boy Scouts and he coached our little league teams and so he was involved

[00:22:46] in the man areas in the man areas.

[00:22:49] Yeah.

[00:22:51] And were there things he refused to do?

[00:22:53] Yeah.

[00:22:54] He still doesn't know how to cook anything.

[00:22:56] Wow.

[00:22:58] Once me and my brother moved out like he had they had to have a little I don't know if

[00:23:02] I went to counseling or they talked to people but like he had to like start helping out

[00:23:07] around the house.

[00:23:08] Okay.

[00:23:08] Okay.

[00:23:09] They've had some some progress but not without great conflict.

[00:23:12] Oh my goodness.

[00:23:13] Well you mentioned complement complementarianism.

[00:23:17] Can you break that down for any listeners who may not be familiar with the term?

[00:23:20] Yeah.

[00:23:21] That's the standard default for marriage in Christian people that men have men and women

[00:23:26] are different and that's fine.

[00:23:28] We can say that.

[00:23:29] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:30] But for a Christian that means there's regimented roles for each person a man and woman.

[00:23:35] So a man is the head of the household and he brings leadership and guidance and authority

[00:23:43] opens the jars does the yard work.

[00:23:46] Yeah.

[00:23:46] You know there's all these man things that he's expected to do and praised for on Father's

[00:23:51] Day.

[00:23:51] Yeah.

[00:23:52] And then there's the woman things.

[00:23:54] Right.

[00:23:54] Keeping the house clean and because she's more nurturing and she's the mom and helps the

[00:23:59] kids you know deal with the stresses of day-to-day life.

[00:24:04] Yeah.

[00:24:04] And it's this idea that you stay in your lane you can't cross over.

[00:24:08] Right.

[00:24:09] The mom can't go out and mow the lawn.

[00:24:11] Yeah.

[00:24:11] Or earn money.

[00:24:12] In a lot of cases.

[00:24:14] In a lot of cases.

[00:24:14] Have a career.

[00:24:15] Yeah.

[00:24:17] Like when we all moved out my mom got a job at the hospital down the street just as

[00:24:24] like a low-level administrator.

[00:24:26] My dad had a really hard time with it.

[00:24:28] Ooh.

[00:24:28] Yeah.

[00:24:29] It changes the dynamic.

[00:24:31] Yeah.

[00:24:31] Yeah.

[00:24:32] It switches things up.

[00:24:33] He felt like diminished as a man because he wasn't the sole provider of the household.

[00:24:40] Well you know we talk about a lot of these things because this is what we were raised

[00:24:44] with.

[00:24:45] Raised seeing and raised learning in the church.

[00:24:47] And so you know it's really not to poke fun at anything or to point it out and laugh.

[00:24:53] It's like really that we have had to slowly over time uninstall this programming from our

[00:24:59] brains.

[00:25:01] Acknowledging it and then seeing how it affects us.

[00:25:04] Yeah.

[00:25:04] In our marriages and our families.

[00:25:06] And you mentioned that your mom was sort of the matriarch.

[00:25:11] But yeah.

[00:25:12] Because they were Christian.

[00:25:13] Mm-hmm.

[00:25:15] Yeah.

[00:25:15] Can you talk about that as a contrast to my family?

[00:25:19] Absolutely.

[00:25:20] I mean yeah I guess it is really different.

[00:25:22] I don't know if it's more of a like a Taiwanese cultural thing but all of the women in my family

[00:25:29] are very outspoken and they have strong personalities.

[00:25:34] Yeah.

[00:25:34] And my mom comes from a family of five sisters and one brother because of course because it's

[00:25:39] still patriarchal they had to have kids until they had a son.

[00:25:44] And but all five women are strong headed like really smart.

[00:25:50] Like if I'm in a room with my aunts I get eviscerated within 10 seconds because these women

[00:25:56] are just they're so smart.

[00:25:58] They're cutting.

[00:25:58] They're biting.

[00:25:59] And they they like they do not pull punches.

[00:26:02] That's my mom's family.

[00:26:04] Wow.

[00:26:04] That's cool.

[00:26:05] Yeah.

[00:26:06] And so you can probably see and my dad is my dad's just sweet.

[00:26:13] He's a lot quieter.

[00:26:15] He's got as a pastor he's got that very like shepherding kind of personality.

[00:26:19] He's kind of stubborn in his own way but he's much softer.

[00:26:23] And for me I think it's my parents are I feel very fortunate to have had them as parents

[00:26:29] because they never actually fought not for my mom's lack of trying and not that they didn't

[00:26:34] have disagreements but my dad was just I guess there's a saying in our household like

[00:26:39] the louder my mom yells the bigger my dad's smile gets.

[00:26:42] He just like smiles.

[00:26:43] He takes it.

[00:26:44] He acknowledges it.

[00:26:45] He'll like you know he apologizes quickly.

[00:26:48] And so her anger balloon never holds much air.

[00:26:52] Wow.

[00:26:52] So the hot air is like very easily dissipated.

[00:26:56] So that's the kind of household I grew up in.

[00:26:59] And so my mom called the shots.

[00:27:02] She was the disciplinarian.

[00:27:03] She was the schedule setter.

[00:27:06] She you know she made the rules.

[00:27:08] She enforced the rules.

[00:27:10] And basically the kind of relationship they have is my mom is the breadwinner and my dad

[00:27:15] was the pastor.

[00:27:16] And so my mom would call maybe most days around like 4 p.m.

[00:27:21] and give my dad a list of things that he needed to get done.

[00:27:24] So my dad was basically a pastor homemaker.

[00:27:27] He wasn't a great homemaker.

[00:27:29] No offense dad.

[00:27:30] Love you so much.

[00:27:32] He doesn't like soap.

[00:27:33] So everything in the house is perpetually sticky even if it's wiped down.

[00:27:37] That's a small thing.

[00:27:38] Love you dad.

[00:27:39] He just doesn't like soap as a concept.

[00:27:42] As a concept.

[00:27:43] As a concept.

[00:27:43] Yeah.

[00:27:44] We can get into that another time.

[00:27:45] Interesting.

[00:27:46] But my mom was you know she was our matriarch and we were we would fall in line behind her.

[00:27:55] Yeah.

[00:27:55] But because she's such a devout Christian woman I think she had to use some interesting

[00:28:01] mental gymnastics to then get to a point where she was like but your dad's the head of the

[00:28:07] household and for final say like your dad gets it.

[00:28:11] And it'd be frustrating in certain situations because it was like you would get her she would

[00:28:17] she would take over everything to the 90 percent point and then just kind of like pin it on

[00:28:23] him for the final decision.

[00:28:27] Even though you knew that she was orchestrating all this stuff behind the scenes.

[00:28:31] Behind the scenes.

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:32] Yeah.

[00:28:32] It was like well your dad is still the head of the household.

[00:28:35] So.

[00:28:36] Was he?

[00:28:37] He.

[00:28:37] I think that to my mom's credit as strong willed and minded as she is if my dad actually

[00:28:45] put his foot down for something that he wanted or thought she would she would acquiesce.

[00:28:51] OK.

[00:28:51] Yeah.

[00:28:51] Because I was going to ask like what does submission look like for your mom.

[00:28:55] So it sounds like when the final straw is he's it's his decision.

[00:29:02] Yeah.

[00:29:02] I mean were there ever times when she gave him the final decision and then disagreed with

[00:29:08] it and was like.

[00:29:10] Yeah.

[00:29:10] I mean there was I think the most notable one and it's probably because I was 13 so it was

[00:29:16] just you know very formative for myself was I I went to San Marino High School.

[00:29:23] We had we moved from Temple City to like North San Gabriel San Marino School District and

[00:29:29] I guess my dad suddenly got the call to start a new church and we he had already started a

[00:29:36] church when I was four.

[00:29:37] It's in San Gabriel.

[00:29:38] It's right off the 10 freeway a blue and white church white and blue church I guess because

[00:29:43] it's white with blue trim.

[00:29:44] And so he got the call to start a new church and my mom was actually frustrated and at the

[00:29:51] time patently against it and like kind of kind of like I don't think you heard God clearly

[00:29:56] type of.

[00:29:57] Yeah.

[00:29:58] Let me help you be a better head of the household by.

[00:30:01] Yeah.

[00:30:02] Helping you find the right decision.

[00:30:04] Yeah.

[00:30:05] But it was one of those things you know as they have experienced before when my dad gets

[00:30:10] the call you know the whole family ends up following.

[00:30:13] So I think that what ended up convincing her was they on a whim decided to go out to Walnut

[00:30:20] and they found a house to buy within the first weekend.

[00:30:23] So for my mom she was like that was God his divine intervention his nudging me to better

[00:30:29] obey my husband type of thing you know.

[00:30:32] And our whole family packed up and moved moved over within the span of a few weeks.

[00:30:38] So it was a that's being a pastor's kid.

[00:30:42] But you know I think that seeing my mom struggle with that was very informative to me at the

[00:30:48] time that at the end of the day even though she was the provider and she has her say and

[00:30:55] it's disrupting her life.

[00:30:57] It's doubling her work commute.

[00:30:59] It's changing their kids school district.

[00:31:01] And we're in Southern California and that's that's something.

[00:31:04] Yeah.

[00:31:05] Um she's still and I love my I love my parents.

[00:31:08] I love my dad like you know it's nothing it's not a judgment call but even still at the

[00:31:13] end of the day she was kind of in her mind guided by God to obey her husband and to obey

[00:31:19] the call.

[00:31:20] Oof.

[00:31:21] If your parents weren't Christian.

[00:31:23] Yeah.

[00:31:25] It would it would have been different right probably like.

[00:31:28] Probably.

[00:31:29] I feel like I know families where the matriarch does rule.

[00:31:32] Yeah.

[00:31:33] And the man is just there to you know kill the spiders and work on the truck and you know

[00:31:38] has his own life.

[00:31:39] But.

[00:31:39] Yeah.

[00:31:40] It's interesting how these faith traditions with the patriarchal mindset and the you know

[00:31:46] head of the household thing.

[00:31:48] Yeah.

[00:31:51] Affects you know family dynamics and marriages.

[00:31:54] It's true.

[00:31:54] And you know I do feel very fortunate.

[00:31:56] One I do not know what my parents would be like without Christianity because.

[00:32:00] Yeah.

[00:32:00] And we'll never know.

[00:32:01] Yeah.

[00:32:01] And they're representative Christian their representation of Christianity in their lives

[00:32:05] is so complete like there is no curtain to be drawn.

[00:32:09] It is just like end to end.

[00:32:10] I've never seen a scene if that makes any sense.

[00:32:15] And that can be frustrating in its own right.

[00:32:17] But I do feel very fortunate that my.

[00:32:20] And maybe it's because he had daughters and maybe my dad's father was was pretty like corporal

[00:32:27] corporally abusive I guess.

[00:32:30] And very very very patriarchal like my grandmother wasn't allowed to sit in the front living room

[00:32:35] because he didn't want other men gawking at her.

[00:32:37] It had nothing to do with Christianity and everything.

[00:32:39] Yeah.

[00:32:39] Culture.

[00:32:40] Yeah.

[00:32:40] Culture.

[00:32:40] Culture.

[00:32:40] So I think my dad seeing that made a very conscious decision to want to be a different

[00:32:45] person than that.

[00:32:46] So I think that I'm very very fortunate because he never.

[00:32:52] He was such a good girl dad and he never put any of us down.

[00:32:55] He never put my mom down.

[00:32:57] He always impressed.

[00:32:57] I remember as a kid I was like well dad mom has a master's degree and you have a PhD so

[00:33:02] that means you're smarter than mom.

[00:33:03] And he was like no.

[00:33:05] He was like absolutely not.

[00:33:06] Wow.

[00:33:07] He was like he was like absolutely not your mom.

[00:33:10] I mean you know he gave me he like broke down an argument for me why my mom was way

[00:33:14] smarter than him.

[00:33:15] And so I feel very fortunate because although the backdrop to my life was this kind of evangelical

[00:33:22] wives should submit to their husbands.

[00:33:23] I also had this very you know off opposite 90 percent of the time experience at home.

[00:33:31] Yeah.

[00:33:31] That's that sounds so much better than the stuff we're seeing today.

[00:33:35] Yeah.

[00:33:35] With trad wife trending in because you got you had a mom you could look up to because she

[00:33:42] was a leader and and had amazing gifts and talents of her own and a dad who who didn't

[00:33:51] do the patriarchy bullshit.

[00:33:53] No.

[00:33:54] Yeah.

[00:33:55] Honored you and your sisters and your mom.

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:58] My dad had some certain things with patriarchy like modesty like he was very you know I think

[00:34:04] more but I think that's where Christianity and culture kind of come together to coalesce

[00:34:09] into forming a worldview.

[00:34:10] But yeah I think you're right.

[00:34:12] I even as you're talking I think your parents relationship really reminds me of Abe's parents.

[00:34:19] Like there's more similarities there.

[00:34:22] And so it doesn't make me curious like what Jerry's parents what their marriage was like.

[00:34:26] Well I got divorced when she was like six.

[00:34:28] Oh yeah we can get into that.

[00:34:30] But I was gonna say.

[00:34:33] Yeah.

[00:34:34] The your dad would be patently rejected by the Mark Driscoll's of the world.

[00:34:41] Yeah.

[00:34:42] For not ruling with an iron fist.

[00:34:44] And and creating this toxic you know dominion over the household and ruling with an iron fist.

[00:34:49] You need to know that this world knows nothing about how to raise a boy to be a man.

[00:34:54] The government knows nothing about how to take a boy and cause him to become a man.

[00:34:59] You and I are here to raise up boys to become men.

[00:35:03] And we have in our culture an absolute failure of boys to become men and launch into masculinity.

[00:35:11] You can't just hand your sons to a public school a government school.

[00:35:15] You just can't hand them a screen and hope that it works well for them.

[00:35:19] You need to know that everything that you are up against is demonic.

[00:35:23] It is custom architected to break your boy before God can make him a man.

[00:35:27] And I need you men to take on that masculine leadership responsibility as head of household.

[00:35:33] What makes matters even worse those of us who are masculine and men.

[00:35:38] We understand that God made us to act like men.

[00:35:42] We are said to be what kind of masculinity?

[00:35:47] Toxic masculinity.

[00:35:48] Which is the kind of thing that only a beta male would believe.

[00:35:52] But there was this quote in 2019 from the American Psychological Association.

[00:35:59] I'll read the quote.

[00:36:01] Traditional masculinity.

[00:36:03] Can we just get a shout out for traditional masculinity?

[00:36:06] Can we just like...

[00:36:08] Yeah.

[00:36:09] Yeah.

[00:36:10] We drink whiskey.

[00:36:11] We like guns.

[00:36:12] We wear boots.

[00:36:13] We have beards.

[00:36:14] We drive trucks.

[00:36:14] And we'd like to sleep with a woman.

[00:36:17] Not a man.

[00:36:18] And we're not going to pray about any alternative.

[00:36:20] We are traditional masculinity.

[00:36:23] Amen?

[00:36:24] We're those guys.

[00:36:25] Hey, everybody else has come on.

[00:36:26] Is my dad not a man?

[00:36:28] Is he not manly?

[00:36:29] According to Mark Driscoll and that...

[00:36:30] Yeah.

[00:36:31] And I can't remember all the other names of the influencers.

[00:36:34] Yeah.

[00:36:34] But yeah, there's this message going around today.

[00:36:37] Yeah.

[00:36:38] If we could look on the computer right now, there's always like, be a man.

[00:36:42] You know, don't be soft.

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:44] Don't coddle your kids.

[00:36:47] Don't let your wife tell you anything what to do.

[00:36:50] Yeah.

[00:36:50] And so, yeah, I think both of us are fortunate.

[00:36:54] And maybe that's why we're able to even have these conversations on this podcast.

[00:36:59] Because we're not as harmed.

[00:37:02] We weren't as harmed by these toxic marriage situations.

[00:37:06] At home.

[00:37:06] At home.

[00:37:07] In our own lives.

[00:37:08] Yeah.

[00:37:08] I think we've both seen them in other people.

[00:37:11] Yeah.

[00:37:11] In people we know.

[00:37:12] And maybe in relatives and friends.

[00:37:14] And then taught that in church.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:17] And we're seeing it online, obviously.

[00:37:20] But we had little rebels at home, I think.

[00:37:22] It sounds like your mom was a rebel.

[00:37:24] Yeah.

[00:37:24] And even though maybe not as directly, my dad was, his representation of how he was in life

[00:37:30] was.

[00:37:30] He was totally a rebel in the sense that he's not fulfilling his rightful place as a man

[00:37:37] to rule over the household.

[00:37:39] You know, it took me some time because I remember getting to college and a lot of Asian women

[00:37:45] inferring to me that they had daddy issues.

[00:37:48] And it took me a really long time to fully understand because the example I had in my

[00:37:55] life was an outlier.

[00:37:56] It was not that.

[00:37:56] Yeah.

[00:37:56] Yeah.

[00:37:57] And I didn't know I was an outlier.

[00:37:59] For me, it was the norm.

[00:38:00] Yeah.

[00:38:00] It's what you know growing up.

[00:38:02] Yeah.

[00:38:02] Having mommy issues was my norm.

[00:38:04] I love my mom.

[00:38:05] But, you know, she's a tough cookie.

[00:38:07] But yeah, having my dad, I think you're right.

[00:38:09] I think that is probably your mom and my dad are probably exactly why we're able to have

[00:38:14] this conversation.

[00:38:15] Ooh, shout out to our parents in that sense.

[00:38:18] Because it's so weird.

[00:38:19] Like people throughout the last 20, 30 years talk about biblical marriage.

[00:38:26] And they're all picturing probably their own families.

[00:38:29] Yeah.

[00:38:30] But so let's take a couple minutes here and remember what the Bible actually says about

[00:38:35] marriage.

[00:38:35] Ooh, yes.

[00:38:36] Professor Scott.

[00:38:38] Well, English professor, not biblical studies.

[00:38:40] But yeah.

[00:38:41] Yeah.

[00:38:42] What does the Bible even say about marriage?

[00:38:43] This is what I will say, where you got Adam and Eve.

[00:38:45] Yeah.

[00:38:46] And Eve messed up according to the lore.

[00:38:49] But they stuck together because they're the only two humans.

[00:38:52] Don't cause him to stumble.

[00:38:57] You might miss the rapture.

[00:39:01] But he messed up too.

[00:39:02] But no one, the pastors never say that.

[00:39:04] Yeah.

[00:39:04] It's just like Eve's fault.

[00:39:05] And that's why the world is fucked up because of Eve.

[00:39:09] Right.

[00:39:10] So from the get go, Genesis.

[00:39:13] Patriarchy.

[00:39:13] Patriarchy.

[00:39:14] And women are vilified.

[00:39:16] For sure.

[00:39:17] As being irrational and prone to impulses.

[00:39:20] Yeah.

[00:39:20] And we'll skip over the potential incest-y stuff.

[00:39:25] Lots of incest.

[00:39:26] That would lead to a population of a billion in the world.

[00:39:29] You're talking about Noah?

[00:39:31] Oh, right.

[00:39:32] Oh, yeah.

[00:39:32] And then a reset with Noah.

[00:39:33] Reset with more incest.

[00:39:35] Because his family was-

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:38] The only ones left, supposedly.

[00:39:39] Supposedly.

[00:39:40] That they knew of, I guess.

[00:39:41] That they knew of.

[00:39:41] Yeah.

[00:39:42] There were angels, apparently.

[00:39:43] But anyway.

[00:39:45] So marriage.

[00:39:46] You got things like Abraham.

[00:39:48] Yeah.

[00:39:50] Who lived also 800 years or something.

[00:39:52] Yeah.

[00:39:54] Sarah.

[00:39:55] But there are multiple wives in a lot of cases, like Solomon.

[00:40:02] Oh, yeah.

[00:40:03] I mean, David was a bit of a whore.

[00:40:05] No offense.

[00:40:05] No whore shaming.

[00:40:06] It's good to be the king.

[00:40:09] Bathsheba.

[00:40:10] Bathsheba.

[00:40:10] Yeah.

[00:40:11] Has her husband killed, so he can-

[00:40:12] Banger.

[00:40:13] Yeah.

[00:40:14] Great.

[00:40:15] Yeah.

[00:40:16] Then we have, like, Hosea.

[00:40:18] Yeah.

[00:40:19] Was Hosea the one we were trying to remember in episode one?

[00:40:21] That probably was, right?

[00:40:22] The one.

[00:40:23] Yeah.

[00:40:23] Okay.

[00:40:24] All the-

[00:40:24] Yeah.

[00:40:24] These little synapses have been long dead in my head.

[00:40:27] I know.

[00:40:28] They're starting to arc.

[00:40:28] Like, oh, wait.

[00:40:30] Hosea.

[00:40:30] My Awana book is vibrating.

[00:40:33] Is vibrating.

[00:40:35] A lot with his daughters.

[00:40:38] Also incest.

[00:40:39] Had kids.

[00:40:40] Maybe this is why the GOP is obsessed with incest.

[00:40:44] I don't know.

[00:40:44] Anyway.

[00:40:45] Yeah.

[00:40:46] Yeah, it's projection.

[00:40:47] Maybe because they're like, well, it's the Bible.

[00:40:48] Yeah.

[00:40:49] Well, anyway, these are all-

[00:40:51] Yeah.

[00:40:51] And all this weirdness in the Old Testament is seen as, like, biblical.

[00:40:55] But we don't-

[00:40:57] They don't make the connection between marriage today and those models, right?

[00:41:01] No, I don't think-

[00:41:02] Because it's so historical.

[00:41:03] Yeah.

[00:41:03] Even though it's right there.

[00:41:05] Like, when you say biblical marriage, you know, how many goats is your wife going to

[00:41:08] bring to the table at the dowry?

[00:41:11] Right.

[00:41:11] Right.

[00:41:12] We were talking before we recorded about Leah and-

[00:41:16] Oh, Leah and Rachel.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:17] I mean, that is a weird-

[00:41:19] That would make a weird movie.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] Like, that is not a romantic comedy, that typical romantic comedy.

[00:41:24] Right.

[00:41:25] Well, and isn't it biblical that if a woman's husband dies, that she should marry his brother?

[00:41:30] Yeah.

[00:41:30] Isn't that like-

[00:41:31] Yeah, it's in the Bible.

[00:41:32] In the Bible.

[00:41:33] Yeah.

[00:41:34] Which kind of follows that whole sibling thing.

[00:41:37] And then you get the Onan thing, you know, he was supposed to impregnate her.

[00:41:41] Right.

[00:41:42] Because that was Onan, right?

[00:41:43] Yeah, I think so.

[00:41:43] He was supposed to impregnate his sister-in-law.

[00:41:45] Yeah.

[00:41:46] Because his brother died, but he didn't want to, naturally.

[00:41:49] Yeah.

[00:41:50] Or unnaturally.

[00:41:50] But anyway, he spills his seed.

[00:41:54] Oh, wow.

[00:41:55] It's giving Bridgerton.

[00:41:57] Oh, I haven't watched Bridgerton.

[00:41:59] Oh, okay.

[00:41:59] Should I watch it?

[00:42:00] Well, yeah, sure.

[00:42:01] Okay.

[00:42:02] I mean, it's fun.

[00:42:03] It's the culture.

[00:42:04] Someone spills his seed?

[00:42:05] Well, I don't want to spoil anything.

[00:42:07] Oh, okay.

[00:42:08] You've got to watch season one.

[00:42:09] Okay, well, now I'm curious.

[00:42:12] But, you know, I think other men throughout history have spilled their seed.

[00:42:15] I'm guessing at some point.

[00:42:18] Yeah.

[00:42:18] They have-

[00:42:19] Depends how full your cup is.

[00:42:20] They have jerked off and did not impregnate someone.

[00:42:24] And they didn't get struck dead.

[00:42:26] So, I don't know why Onan is this instructional thing for mostly the Catholics.

[00:42:31] Anyway.

[00:42:31] Got it.

[00:42:31] New Testament.

[00:42:33] Mary and Joseph.

[00:42:37] Yeah.

[00:42:37] Who, you know, she's supposed to be like 14.

[00:42:40] Oh, it's not.

[00:42:42] It's kind of icky.

[00:42:43] It was different times.

[00:42:45] Anyway, you have like Zachariah.

[00:42:47] She didn't ask to be pregnant too.

[00:42:49] So, there's that.

[00:42:50] So, it's like she was raised.

[00:42:52] Not being sensual.

[00:42:52] No, yeah.

[00:42:53] But then there's John the Baptist and his parents.

[00:42:57] Zachariah, who was struck mute, right?

[00:43:00] I forget his wife's name right now.

[00:43:02] Oh.

[00:43:02] But she was also older.

[00:43:04] Yeah.

[00:43:06] What was her name?

[00:43:06] I forgot about that story.

[00:43:08] Yeah.

[00:43:08] John the Baptist.

[00:43:09] Had parents.

[00:43:10] Mm-hmm.

[00:43:10] He never married though, right?

[00:43:12] I think he got beheaded before.

[00:43:14] Yeah.

[00:43:15] Who knows what he consummated, but, you know.

[00:43:18] Yeah.

[00:43:21] Anyway, Jesus talks about infidelity.

[00:43:26] Okay.

[00:43:27] You know, if a man looks at a woman with lust, he's committed infidelity in his heart, which

[00:43:32] is pretty tough.

[00:43:33] Christians don't like to talk about that one.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:35] It's like the murder thing, right?

[00:43:37] If you think murder, you've pretty much murdered.

[00:43:40] Oh.

[00:43:40] I don't even know if Jesus even said that.

[00:43:42] Oh, okay.

[00:43:44] Yeah.

[00:43:44] He didn't say a lot about marriage.

[00:43:46] So, anyway.

[00:43:47] Did Peter, Paul, were they the ones that wrote more about marriage?

[00:43:50] Paul was completely against marriage.

[00:43:52] Interesting.

[00:43:52] Even though he was, I think he was married.

[00:43:54] For himself or for everyone?

[00:43:55] For everyone.

[00:43:56] He's like, Jesus is coming back.

[00:43:57] Don't waste your time getting married.

[00:43:58] Ugh.

[00:43:59] Didn't he also say you shouldn't enjoy sex with your partner too much?

[00:44:02] Or with your spouse too much?

[00:44:03] Oh.

[00:44:03] I don't know if that was Paul.

[00:44:04] That was just sort of like the teachings of like Europe.

[00:44:08] Again, I don't know if you guys can tell, but we're not Bible scholars.

[00:44:11] Yeah.

[00:44:11] I don't know if it's, I know, I know it's like we're passing it off well, but.

[00:44:16] And then like these aliens came down, I think.

[00:44:18] It was three aliens, right?

[00:44:20] Three aliens.

[00:44:22] But so not.

[00:44:23] Yeah.

[00:44:23] Right now there's a biblical scholar like just screaming at the speakers.

[00:44:26] I know.

[00:44:27] Please write it to us.

[00:44:28] Yeah.

[00:44:29] Correct us.

[00:44:29] But anyway.

[00:44:30] But there's not that much.

[00:44:31] I think that's the point that we're trying to.

[00:44:34] We're so eloquently bringing to light this point that this idea of marriage and family

[00:44:41] that we have today, the Dobsonian model.

[00:44:44] Dobsonian.

[00:44:45] Is not biblical.

[00:44:47] Ah.

[00:44:48] Jesus even said, I have come to divide families.

[00:44:51] Right.

[00:44:51] Unless you hate your mother and father, you can't follow me.

[00:44:55] Right.

[00:44:55] He said, Jesus, according to the Bible.

[00:44:58] Yeah.

[00:44:58] I don't know if I believe the Bible.

[00:44:59] He wants you to be a groupie.

[00:45:00] Yeah.

[00:45:01] And that's why the early Christians were weird.

[00:45:04] Like the Romans were throwing them to the lions because they're fucking weird.

[00:45:07] They were disowning their own families.

[00:45:09] Right.

[00:45:10] And just sort of gathering together to worship this Jesus who had been killed.

[00:45:15] Flames were peering at the top of their heads.

[00:45:18] Yeah.

[00:45:18] So like the Romans are like, these people are useless.

[00:45:21] Yeah.

[00:45:21] Wow.

[00:45:23] Yeah.

[00:45:23] So where did the Dobsonian, what are the roots of his teachings then?

[00:45:28] Yeah.

[00:45:29] I know there are people who might even be listening who have covered this extensively.

[00:45:34] Oh, okay.

[00:45:34] Is there a podcast we can recommend?

[00:45:36] Maybe we can put some in the show notes.

[00:45:39] Cool.

[00:45:39] But yeah, I mean, it all comes out of like the Middle Ages and the Renaissance and those

[00:45:46] times of that sort of shaped.

[00:45:48] And then kind of the puritanical ethic develops in the 1800s, the 19th century.

[00:45:55] Okay.

[00:45:55] So this idea of all this modesty and puritanical tradition.

[00:46:01] Yeah.

[00:46:02] It comes out of that sort of Victorian age stuff.

[00:46:05] I see.

[00:46:07] I see.

[00:46:07] That's directly connected to today.

[00:46:09] I mean, obviously a lot of it predates that.

[00:46:12] Well, there's always, I feel like throughout history and when it comes to a lot of things,

[00:46:16] but to sex, there's always like a compression and then an expansion.

[00:46:21] And then after expansion, there's compression.

[00:46:23] And then it kind of goes in these cycles of like sexual openness and then sexual prudishness.

[00:46:29] Yeah.

[00:46:30] And on and on it goes, you know.

[00:46:32] If we could go back to the 1920s, that would be a party.

[00:46:35] A party.

[00:46:36] Yeah.

[00:46:36] But then the 30s and the 40s, by comparison, were a lot more.

[00:46:40] The Depression was seen as sort of like God's vengeance for the debauchery.

[00:46:46] Ooh.

[00:46:47] And then prohibition.

[00:46:48] You know, all that was.

[00:46:50] For those hemlines?

[00:46:51] Those hemlines were pretty.

[00:46:52] Yeah, the flappers with the short hair and the short skirts.

[00:46:55] Well, I mean, all this is so interesting because I know that there is something about, I feel

[00:47:01] that in the Bible they talk about the church being the bride of Christ.

[00:47:06] And that is, that is like, I feel a metaphor that was used for Jesus to try to make humans

[00:47:13] understand what he was trying to say.

[00:47:14] But now it's being used as a way to model marriage.

[00:47:18] Right.

[00:47:19] It's kind of like flipping that metaphor on itself.

[00:47:23] So it's a metaphor talking to itself now.

[00:47:26] Yeah.

[00:47:27] And excusing and even encouraging this sort of patriarchal toxicity of.

[00:47:31] Yeah.

[00:47:32] Because, you know, Jesus was kind of violent.

[00:47:35] Sure.

[00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:36] Killed a fig tree.

[00:47:38] What did the fig season too?

[00:47:40] That's even more sad.

[00:47:41] RIP to that fig tree.

[00:47:42] Yeah.

[00:47:42] Just didn't have figs that day.

[00:47:44] Oh.

[00:47:44] He was mad.

[00:47:46] He was kind of a dick to his parents too when he was young.

[00:47:49] Right.

[00:47:49] Yeah.

[00:47:50] Anyway.

[00:47:50] He pulled a, like, a home alone.

[00:47:53] Yeah.

[00:47:53] He stayed behind.

[00:47:54] Then he got mad at them.

[00:47:55] He was like, woman, you know, don't you know who I am?

[00:47:58] Yeah.

[00:47:59] Oof.

[00:48:00] Dang.

[00:48:00] It sounds like low-key Justin Bieber.

[00:48:03] It kind of does.

[00:48:04] Jesus Christ, Justin Bieber.

[00:48:05] That's our next song.

[00:48:07] Jesus and Justin Bieber.

[00:48:10] I'm trying to think of a Justin Bieber song.

[00:48:12] We've been asked to write more songs, so.

[00:48:15] Oh boy.

[00:48:16] What's a Justin Bieber song that's like.

[00:48:18] I only know baby.

[00:48:22] What's like an early one?

[00:48:25] Right now people are screaming at the speakers.

[00:48:27] Don't you know Justin Bieber songs?

[00:48:29] Oh yeah.

[00:48:30] I'm like a Justin Bieber fan.

[00:48:32] Yeah.

[00:48:35] Hey everyone.

[00:48:36] I'm Maggie from the Hello Deconstructionists podcast.

[00:48:39] I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for tuning into this show.

[00:48:42] We're so grateful that you decided to spend your time with us.

[00:48:45] Seriously.

[00:48:46] Cortland, Dan, Gail, Jessica, Megan, Nate, Scott, and the rest of us here at the Dauntless Media Collective

[00:48:51] couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without your support.

[00:48:56] I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation.

[00:49:00] Right now there are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective

[00:49:04] Discord server.

[00:49:05] If you're interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing

[00:49:10] the oppressive traditions they came from, please feel free to stop by the server.

[00:49:14] If you don't know what Discord is, it's a place where communities can gather online

[00:49:18] for chatting on a wide variety of topics.

[00:49:21] In our Discord server, we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations, some

[00:49:27] meme sharing, therapeutic venting about whatever religious bullshit you're currently dealing

[00:49:31] with, and even a specific channel devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the

[00:49:36] podcast you're listening to right now.

[00:49:38] I hope you'll join us.

[00:49:40] You can log in directly to the Dauntless server by clicking the link in the show notes or heading

[00:49:45] to dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top banner.

[00:49:49] See you there.

[00:49:54] Anyway.

[00:49:55] Anyway.

[00:49:56] So he pulled a little bit of a Justin Bieber.

[00:49:59] He got a little too big for his sandals.

[00:50:02] Yeah.

[00:50:03] Which, you know, again, the way Christians look at marriage and family today with this

[00:50:08] very clear, they act like it's this thing is in the Bible, right?

[00:50:12] Like this nuclear family.

[00:50:14] Like ordained by God.

[00:50:15] Live together.

[00:50:17] Husband and wife.

[00:50:18] You know, and you really are hard pressed to find anything remotely like today's nuclear

[00:50:24] family in the suburbs going to a megachurch.

[00:50:27] There's nothing like that in the Bible.

[00:50:29] No.

[00:50:30] That's, I mean, that's fascinating.

[00:50:33] Even just saying that plain as is, is kind of illuminating a lot for me right now.

[00:50:40] It's like, that's not, that's not in the, that's not in the Bible.

[00:50:44] Yeah.

[00:50:45] And then couple that with like Jesus teachings, which seems very contrary to this idea of

[00:50:50] this nuclear loving family.

[00:50:51] And I'm not, and we're not saying we're against nuclear loving families.

[00:50:54] Yeah.

[00:50:55] Husband, wife, kids, or wife, wife, husband, you know.

[00:50:59] Sure.

[00:50:59] Any kind of family unit that is cohesive and, you know, it becomes, so the economists and

[00:51:05] historians will be also tell us that the governments need these families as sort of the engines

[00:51:11] of economy.

[00:51:12] Mm-hmm.

[00:51:12] This model that drives society forward.

[00:51:16] Inheritance, yeah.

[00:51:16] With capitalism.

[00:51:18] Yeah.

[00:51:18] Because without capitalism, we probably don't need these very clear family lines in.

[00:51:24] Right.

[00:51:26] Yeah.

[00:51:27] So.

[00:51:28] Interesting.

[00:51:29] So everybody, don't get married.

[00:51:31] Don't have families.

[00:51:33] Well, yeah.

[00:51:34] We're not saying that.

[00:51:35] Right before we hit record though, Scott and I were talking about how, you know, after

[00:51:42] being married, like I've been married for six years.

[00:51:44] Yeah.

[00:51:44] So we can talk about our stuff now?

[00:51:46] Yeah.

[00:51:47] A little bit.

[00:51:47] I think we killed the Bible stuff.

[00:51:48] We nailed that.

[00:51:49] Well.

[00:51:50] Yeah.

[00:51:50] You know.

[00:51:50] I mean, it's all related.

[00:51:52] It's all related.

[00:51:52] Right, right.

[00:51:53] It's all things we're uninstalling, you know.

[00:51:55] Yeah.

[00:51:55] Yeah.

[00:51:57] But I think we were both talking about how someone was complaining that, ugh, marriage.

[00:52:02] And we're both kind of like, yeah, I get it.

[00:52:05] Yeah.

[00:52:06] Because so many people are unhappy in marriage.

[00:52:08] Yeah.

[00:52:08] You know, the sexless marriage is more common than the people who are boning all the time.

[00:52:15] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:16] It's, it's, the research is there.

[00:52:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:18] People are getting married, they're having kids and doing the family thing.

[00:52:22] Yeah.

[00:52:22] But their own relationships are not, you know, if you tell them on the day they get married

[00:52:28] or the day they get engaged that you're going to like be sick of each other and take each

[00:52:33] other for granted.

[00:52:34] Yeah.

[00:52:34] And not be attracted to each other anymore.

[00:52:37] Yeah.

[00:52:37] Like, they wouldn't believe you.

[00:52:38] They wouldn't get married, right?

[00:52:39] Right.

[00:52:39] You think this is going to be forever.

[00:52:42] It just takes work.

[00:52:43] Yeah.

[00:52:45] Sure.

[00:52:46] And I think the benefits of an economic marriage for a woman, it's diminished over time.

[00:52:55] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:56] And so I think the importance of a love marriage, I think, has kind of gone up.

[00:53:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:02] But.

[00:53:03] Because women can work now and have their own careers.

[00:53:05] Exactly.

[00:53:06] Yeah.

[00:53:06] Yeah, exactly.

[00:53:06] Unless you go to some churches.

[00:53:08] Well, yeah.

[00:53:09] Yeah.

[00:53:10] So I'm curious because early in your marriage, you and Jerry were still part of the church.

[00:53:16] Yeah, we were kids in grad school.

[00:53:19] So when you first had your first kid, how did that change y'all's dynamic?

[00:53:25] Yeah.

[00:53:26] Yeah.

[00:53:27] It just takes more time and energy.

[00:53:30] Mm-hmm.

[00:53:30] It's the best of time and it's the worst of time.

[00:53:32] You know, you've got this screaming blob that eats and poops and sometimes throws up.

[00:53:40] Scott's an amazing father.

[00:53:42] All three of his kids are home right now.

[00:53:43] My kids suck.

[00:53:44] Don't have kids.

[00:53:48] They're very well-adjusted, well-balanced, free-thinking, like really fascinating kids.

[00:53:54] But yes, they started off as this like amorphous blob.

[00:53:57] Little blobs that just need shit.

[00:53:59] Yeah.

[00:54:00] There's a hundred ways a baby can die, you find out in a day.

[00:54:04] God.

[00:54:04] And so like you just worry about.

[00:54:06] So yeah, necessarily I think you have a kid or you have a baby.

[00:54:09] Yeah.

[00:54:10] All your attention, most of your attention is going to keeping this thing alive.

[00:54:14] Oof.

[00:54:15] And providing it with food and shelter and love and all these things.

[00:54:22] I think where couples go wrong is that a hundred percent of your love and energy goes to the kid.

[00:54:31] Right.

[00:54:31] And you stop connecting as a couple.

[00:54:35] Mm-hmm.

[00:54:36] So yeah, I've seen it happen.

[00:54:40] We'll name names.

[00:54:41] Yeah.

[00:54:41] Yeah.

[00:54:42] I've heard some people describe it as, you know, you meet someone in life, you fall in love and you get married.

[00:54:48] But then once you have a kid, you realize that your partner is just some stranger you've met.

[00:54:53] While this child is like a part of your makeup, you know?

[00:54:58] Like since the stars, like you've been connected to this child.

[00:55:01] Like they're of you.

[00:55:02] But I was like, whoa, I've literally never heard it explained like that.

[00:55:05] Yeah, that's fascinating because I see it in that way.

[00:55:08] But I also see it as, but I chose my partner.

[00:55:12] We chose each other.

[00:55:13] Right.

[00:55:14] As opposed to just being inherently connected.

[00:55:18] Yeah.

[00:55:18] Right.

[00:55:19] Right.

[00:55:19] Which is, can be very romantic or can be very pragmatic.

[00:55:22] I guess depends on how you look at it.

[00:55:24] I think I see it as romantic.

[00:55:25] I like that.

[00:55:25] But like, yeah, the kids, like I didn't choose them.

[00:55:29] Yeah.

[00:55:29] Did you though once, and I don't know what it was like prior to having kids.

[00:55:33] So please feel free to expound upon that.

[00:55:35] But did you feel pressure suddenly to be a provider as the man of the household?

[00:55:39] No.

[00:55:40] Oh, cool.

[00:55:41] Walk us through that because that's kind of.

[00:55:43] So this is where I'll admit to not being a real man in the Mark Driscoll world.

[00:55:47] Mark Driscoll, if you're listening, someone send this to Mark Driscoll.

[00:55:50] Yeah, yeah.

[00:55:50] Go fuck yourself.

[00:55:52] And not in the fun way.

[00:55:54] Yeah.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:56] No, for sure.

[00:55:59] So when I met Jerry, I think she told me she wanted to be a dentist.

[00:56:03] I don't remember.

[00:56:04] I was just, you know, oh, pretty girl.

[00:56:07] Yeah.

[00:56:08] We get along.

[00:56:10] And then.

[00:56:11] Jerry is very hot.

[00:56:12] She went to dental school and I went to grad school and we didn't really think about like

[00:56:17] the dynamic because, you know, I was providing when we first got married.

[00:56:22] Right.

[00:56:22] I was working.

[00:56:23] She was going to school full time.

[00:56:25] Got it.

[00:56:25] I was working and going to school full time.

[00:56:27] And we got like financial aid.

[00:56:28] Oh, nice.

[00:56:29] But I never saw it as like me providing for the household.

[00:56:34] Yeah.

[00:56:34] It was just we're just trying to survive.

[00:56:35] Yeah.

[00:56:36] In San Francisco.

[00:56:37] It was not expensive in the 90s, but, you know.

[00:56:41] Comparatively.

[00:56:42] Sure.

[00:56:42] So she we come out of grad school and suddenly she's a dentist.

[00:56:46] And she's making like she has two more zeros on her paycheck than I do.

[00:56:51] You know, I was working as a journalist and a freelance writer and then eventually a college

[00:56:54] professor.

[00:56:55] And even in my best years, I think I made a little less than half of what she was making

[00:57:01] just right out of the gate.

[00:57:02] Yeah.

[00:57:04] And I remember my dad being concerned for me, you know, just you OK with this because

[00:57:10] she was working with him.

[00:57:12] Oh, your dad's a dentist.

[00:57:14] Yeah, it was.

[00:57:15] Yeah.

[00:57:15] And so I think a lot of the people in church were looking at us like, oh, that's got to

[00:57:22] be rough.

[00:57:22] Right.

[00:57:23] And we never really thought about it that way.

[00:57:26] Hmm.

[00:57:28] That's cool.

[00:57:28] I mean, that's already freeing you from something.

[00:57:32] So it seems like a baseline requirement these days for Christianity.

[00:57:37] Yeah.

[00:57:37] And we were still Christian.

[00:57:39] And so but Jerry would get all this shit from women at church.

[00:57:42] Like, how can you work?

[00:57:44] Like, I could never work.

[00:57:46] You know, I don't know how you do it.

[00:57:48] And you are strangers raising your kids.

[00:57:51] And he's like, my husband and I are raising our kids together.

[00:57:54] Like because their husbands didn't change diapers or didn't do the laundry.

[00:57:59] Yeah.

[00:58:00] And I was because I was home more.

[00:58:02] I was a full time teaching, but I had more time at home.

[00:58:05] Yeah.

[00:58:05] And so, of course, I did.

[00:58:07] Like I taught with a guy who was a biblical studies and English teacher at Jesus Pacific.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:12] Former pastor.

[00:58:13] He would always brag that he didn't do any of that stuff.

[00:58:16] Yeah.

[00:58:17] Even when he was out of work, he retired from being a pastor and was trying to be a professor.

[00:58:22] He's home a lot, but, you know, it's not his job.

[00:58:25] Wow.

[00:58:25] His wife was a doctor.

[00:58:27] Jeez.

[00:58:28] And he always bragged that he had he gave his wife permission to become a doctor.

[00:58:32] Ew.

[00:58:32] That was the only way she was going to do it, because if he didn't want her to, then,

[00:58:36] you know.

[00:58:36] So he would always, like, basically take credit for her being a doctor.

[00:58:39] No.

[00:58:41] Yeah.

[00:58:42] Well, okay.

[00:58:42] In modern day Christianity, I guess we're calling it the Dobsonian era.

[00:58:46] I think we're officially calling it that.

[00:58:48] I think we've established that.

[00:58:49] Yeah.

[00:58:49] That's coined here on Horney Chapel.

[00:58:51] It's possibly waning because he's older and I don't think he has as much reach as he did

[00:58:55] in, like, the 80s and 90s.

[00:58:56] Got it.

[00:58:56] In the early 2000s.

[00:58:57] But, yes.

[00:58:58] The Dobsonian era.

[00:58:59] I think there's this undercurrent or this, you know, underlying idea that once you're

[00:59:04] married as a man, your wife is kind of a vending machine for sex, where if you do something

[00:59:10] she should put out.

[00:59:11] If they're having sex.

[00:59:13] If it.

[00:59:14] But usually it's the.

[00:59:15] Well, in this scenario, it's usually this idea that men are sexually insatiable and the

[00:59:22] only thing that's stopping them from having sex when they want it, which is always is

[00:59:26] their wife.

[00:59:26] Is the wife.

[00:59:27] So how is that for you going in the marriage?

[00:59:29] I mean, obviously, we've talked about you guys were not virgins when you wed.

[00:59:35] But going into marriage, like, did you ever have to make adjustments in your mind in terms

[00:59:39] of like, oh, shit, I have old programming installed in here that I need to unlearn.

[00:59:44] Like, what was that like for you guys?

[00:59:46] I think we're lucky because we were so sexually matched, compatible.

[00:59:50] OK, nice.

[00:59:50] So to us, it was just a lifelong commitment to keep doing it and getting better.

[00:59:56] And improving.

[00:59:58] Improving.

[00:59:59] Yeah.

[01:00:00] And so, you know, and then when kids come along, it's just like kids are just the ultimate

[01:00:03] cock blocker.

[01:00:04] Right.

[01:00:05] Love them.

[01:00:06] But yeah.

[01:00:07] Love them.

[01:00:08] But what the fuck, man?

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:10] No.

[01:00:10] And so.

[01:00:12] Yeah.

[01:00:13] We got pregnant with Audrey fairly soon after Ethan.

[01:00:17] Oh, how many?

[01:00:19] And we don't have to do the math, but my siblings are 13 months apart.

[01:00:24] So it's like.

[01:00:24] Oh, yeah.

[01:00:24] They're not that close.

[01:00:25] They're like 20 something months.

[01:00:28] OK.

[01:00:28] OK.

[01:00:29] 13.

[01:00:30] That's really.

[01:00:30] It's a little while on the edge of.

[01:00:32] Yeah.

[01:00:33] Possibility.

[01:00:33] Yeah.

[01:00:34] The older I get, the more I'm like.

[01:00:35] Hmm.

[01:00:36] Yeah.

[01:00:36] Yeah.

[01:00:37] They were.

[01:00:37] Well, they were into each other.

[01:00:38] They were.

[01:00:39] Yeah.

[01:00:39] That speaks well for them.

[01:00:40] Yeah.

[01:00:41] Marriage.

[01:00:41] Yeah.

[01:00:43] OK.

[01:00:43] So interesting.

[01:00:44] So you never.

[01:00:46] But did you encounter people in your Bible study groups as like students that you later

[01:00:50] saw get married?

[01:00:51] Like, did you see that prevalency?

[01:00:53] Yeah.

[01:00:54] I saw all kinds of things that didn't make sense to us.

[01:00:56] Wow.

[01:00:57] Like I used to hang out with this group of guys here in Pasadena and they're all married

[01:01:00] and most of them go to church.

[01:01:03] And one time we're driving back from this like thing we did on the weekend and one of

[01:01:08] the guys just, you know, it's a quiet moment.

[01:01:11] We listen to music and he's like, he's like, why aren't women ever horny?

[01:01:14] What?

[01:01:15] Why don't why don't women ever just want to have sex?

[01:01:18] Whoa.

[01:01:18] And me and the guy in the front seat, he was he wasn't Christian.

[01:01:23] We kind of looked at each other like.

[01:01:25] Yeah.

[01:01:26] The whole backseat.

[01:01:27] The other two guys launch into this hole.

[01:01:29] Yeah, I know.

[01:01:30] And they they bonded over this fact that, you know, women just don't want it.

[01:01:36] And I was like, wow.

[01:01:38] Huh.

[01:01:39] I just sat quiet.

[01:01:40] I was like, yeah, I got nothing to contribute.

[01:01:43] Whoa.

[01:01:43] But these are Christian men.

[01:01:44] Yeah.

[01:01:45] Who at the time were probably in the 30s, late mid to late 30s.

[01:01:50] I was expecting someone that was like 19.

[01:01:52] Right.

[01:01:52] OK.

[01:01:52] And so, you know, and they had kids, you know.

[01:01:55] No.

[01:01:56] All of them.

[01:01:56] Oh, no.

[01:01:57] He didn't know where the clit was.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:01] Or, you know, a lot of things.

[01:02:03] I'm guessing.

[01:02:03] Yeah.

[01:02:04] But, you know, the whole problem and this is related is the reason that we was they were

[01:02:09] gone this weekend trip to Yosemite.

[01:02:11] I went a couple of times.

[01:02:12] I couldn't do it anymore.

[01:02:13] It was because it was their only chance to be a man.

[01:02:15] Oh, God.

[01:02:16] And it was like their only chance to cuss and play poker and drink beer.

[01:02:20] And everything was like.

[01:02:23] Well, I actually taught him how to fish.

[01:02:25] OK.

[01:02:26] There was only time that they could like swear and say that's what she said.

[01:02:31] Ha ha ha.

[01:02:31] There was a lot of that.

[01:02:32] And it was just like these are all friends of mine from my church days.

[01:02:36] Yeah.

[01:02:36] But like I was like I just started not going anymore because it was too.

[01:02:39] I'm like my wife parties harder than all of you put together.

[01:02:44] Yeah.

[01:02:46] And and you want to talk about sex jokes like we're all about the sex.

[01:02:51] Like.

[01:02:51] Yeah.

[01:02:51] And they're doing this to get away from their wives and kids so they can do this.

[01:02:55] And I'm like I'd rather be doing this with Jerry.

[01:02:57] Right.

[01:02:58] She's more fun.

[01:02:59] Yeah.

[01:03:00] No, I think that's what what I.

[01:03:01] I mean, it sucks that you have to suffer through so many weekends like that.

[01:03:04] I feel for you and I feel for those men.

[01:03:06] But it's one of those things that I notice is there's a lot of a certain type of bitterness

[01:03:11] for Christian men that maybe save themselves or, you know, whatever kind of followed that

[01:03:17] mindset and went into marriage thinking that it would be a solution.

[01:03:21] That.

[01:03:21] Yeah.

[01:03:21] It would be a sexual haven.

[01:03:23] You know.

[01:03:23] Sexual cornucopia.

[01:03:24] Exactly.

[01:03:25] All day.

[01:03:26] Every day is when my students at AP used to say, oh, when I get married, I can have sex

[01:03:29] all day, every day.

[01:03:30] Ha ha.

[01:03:32] Okay.

[01:03:33] Spill your seed.

[01:03:35] But, you know, I think, yeah, the bitterness is really interesting and it's so patterned.

[01:03:41] Yeah.

[01:03:42] Yeah.

[01:03:42] Yeah.

[01:03:43] And I and it's, you know, it's something that I think about a lot.

[01:03:48] It's like we talk about the patriarchy, but it's not that the patriarchy doesn't serve

[01:03:52] women, which it doesn't.

[01:03:53] But it also doesn't serve men.

[01:03:54] Yeah.

[01:03:55] It's not good for either of us, you know, for any of us.

[01:03:58] Yeah.

[01:03:58] It gives men a license to be dicks and to be abusive at times.

[01:04:02] Yeah.

[01:04:03] And it doesn't serve them as far as their their whole person.

[01:04:06] It might serve them in terms of giving them a certain type of power, but it strips them

[01:04:10] from being able to be emotive, from being intimate, from actually connect with their

[01:04:14] partners and their friends.

[01:04:16] And yeah, exactly.

[01:04:17] To be human.

[01:04:18] To be human.

[01:04:19] Yeah.

[01:04:19] Yeah.

[01:04:19] And so many things.

[01:04:22] I feel for your friends.

[01:04:23] I think that's it's one of those things where it's like, yes, I can like laugh.

[01:04:29] I can like like like boys being boys, men being men.

[01:04:33] But at the same time, it is heartbreaking.

[01:04:35] It's heartbreaking.

[01:04:36] I felt bad for them.

[01:04:37] Like the reason I didn't say anything was because I feel like I'd be dunking on them.

[01:04:41] Yeah.

[01:04:41] Right.

[01:04:42] Like we have sex all the time.

[01:04:43] Well, and whenever we can.

[01:04:45] And yeah, you know, we sometimes just go away for the weekend.

[01:04:48] Just to destroy.

[01:04:49] Destroy a hotel room.

[01:04:50] Basically.

[01:04:50] Yeah.

[01:04:52] And and it's not me forcing her or coercing.

[01:04:56] Yeah.

[01:04:56] This is what we both want to do.

[01:04:58] Right.

[01:05:00] Can I share something?

[01:05:01] Please.

[01:05:02] No one's listening, right?

[01:05:03] No one's listening.

[01:05:04] It's just it's just us.

[01:05:06] And your three kids in the house.

[01:05:07] So, yeah, Ethan's home and he was home a couple weeks ago.

[01:05:10] And whenever Ethan comes home, he brings an entourage.

[01:05:13] OK.

[01:05:13] So our house is packed with people.

[01:05:15] Oh, fun.

[01:05:15] And so one Friday night.

[01:05:18] Like, you know, it's just there's just too many people in the house.

[01:05:20] Yeah.

[01:05:21] We just celebrate our 30th anniversary.

[01:05:24] So like.

[01:05:25] Woo.

[01:05:26] Congrats.

[01:05:27] Yeah.

[01:05:27] We have a friend who's out of town and we have a key to her apartment because we're watering

[01:05:31] her plants.

[01:05:32] And so.

[01:05:33] So we go over to her house place Friday night.

[01:05:37] Yeah.

[01:05:39] Oh, it's on.

[01:05:40] Yeah.

[01:05:41] So that's us.

[01:05:42] Yeah.

[01:05:43] We needed to get out of this house of 20 somethings.

[01:05:46] Right.

[01:05:47] God bless them.

[01:05:48] They're having fun.

[01:05:49] They're drinking.

[01:05:50] Yeah.

[01:05:50] They're hanging out.

[01:05:50] For sure.

[01:05:51] But like.

[01:05:52] You guys needed to connect.

[01:05:54] We needed.

[01:05:54] Yeah.

[01:05:55] Yeah.

[01:05:56] Repeatedly.

[01:05:57] Connect repeatedly.

[01:05:58] Connect and connect and disconnect, connect and disconnect over and over.

[01:06:03] Yeah.

[01:06:04] I love that.

[01:06:05] I mean.

[01:06:05] And I think that's.

[01:06:07] I think ultimately if you are in a marriage and you are sexually active, I think that's

[01:06:13] what it should be.

[01:06:15] It's like, you know, something that increases your bond, something that is a form of conversation,

[01:06:19] is a form of communication.

[01:06:21] And it's something that you enjoy together.

[01:06:23] You know, it shouldn't be something that is expected or demanded or coerced.

[01:06:29] Like, I think it is a very sweet, happy life.

[01:06:33] Like, I feel like men feel like she owes me her body or her desire of me.

[01:06:39] Yeah.

[01:06:40] Like, I provide for the family.

[01:06:42] So I'm owed sex.

[01:06:43] Yeah.

[01:06:44] I mean, I can't claim that.

[01:06:45] But, yeah.

[01:06:46] How about you and Abe?

[01:06:47] Yeah.

[01:06:48] You guys have been married like five years-ish now?

[01:06:50] Yeah.

[01:06:50] Five and a half years.

[01:06:52] Yeah.

[01:06:52] I think it's interesting because, like I said, Abe kind of, Abe grew up in a very, very

[01:06:58] conservative Korean Christian household, which was extremely patriarchal.

[01:07:05] And, you know, to the point where Abe wanted to learn to cook.

[01:07:09] And his mom basically said, your penis will fall off if you walk into the kitchen.

[01:07:14] Oh, yeah.

[01:07:14] That does happen.

[01:07:15] I forgot to say that.

[01:07:16] Right.

[01:07:17] That is a downside of cooking for men.

[01:07:19] The not having a penis is a rough thing.

[01:07:22] It grew back.

[01:07:23] It grew back.

[01:07:23] Bigger and stronger.

[01:07:25] But I think that we have had to, I think because we both come from the same, not same, but similar

[01:07:33] backgrounds.

[01:07:34] Yeah.

[01:07:34] And he was, I think his parents had a very trad, you know, Christian idealized marriage, especially according to the Korean kind of like first gen church.

[01:07:48] Like his mom was not allowed to teach.

[01:07:50] Although Abe thinks his mom is very wise and should teach.

[01:07:53] Yeah.

[01:07:54] His dad kind of, his dad's emotions ruled the household.

[01:08:00] Yeah.

[01:08:01] So it was very similar to kind of what you were saying of like what that Dobsonian ideal was.

[01:08:07] And, you know, anything more, I think you did an episode with Abe in chapel probation that everyone can go back and listen to.

[01:08:14] It's, he shares a lot about it.

[01:08:16] So I don't want to speak too much for him, but it was, I guess in the context of how it affected our marriage, I think both of us had a lot of unlearning to do in different ways.

[01:08:29] And I think for, for me, I think some of the things were, there are ways in which I might want to be domestic and that doesn't mean that I am aligning with my former Christian kind of learning.

[01:08:48] Yeah.

[01:08:48] Which is, which is a mind fuck too, you know, there, it's like I had to learn not to punish myself and really like think and figure out what it was like between two people.

[01:08:59] In a household, there are going to be different roles, but, but these do not have to be completely separate or disparate and they do not have to be prescribed by another entity.

[01:09:10] That's the issue, right?

[01:09:10] It's your choice.

[01:09:12] There's nothing wrong with being domestic or whatever that means, you know, sure.

[01:09:16] Doing house things.

[01:09:16] Yeah.

[01:09:17] It's the fact that you're conscripted to this in the system versus choosing to do it because you enjoy it.

[01:09:23] Right.

[01:09:24] It's yeah.

[01:09:25] No, it totally.

[01:09:26] And it is a mind fuck when you're trying to leave something.

[01:09:28] When you're trying to deconstruct from something, you're trying to, you know, unknit yourself from something and then figure out the, because the opposite of it is not the opposite thing itself.

[01:09:39] Right.

[01:09:39] The opposite of it is finding some sort of neutrality from which you can operate, you know?

[01:09:44] And so that was a challenge.

[01:09:46] And I do think for Abe and I, it's like one of those interesting things where things did change after we got married.

[01:09:55] I think a lot of people nowadays are like, nothing changed.

[01:09:57] It's just a piece of paper.

[01:09:58] But I think something did change because we had all these latent views and ideals of marriage that were installed.

[01:10:07] And it felt like no one had put in that floppy disk until we said, I do.

[01:10:12] And all of a sudden, I think we both had things that we needed to unpack.

[01:10:17] And I'm not saying that any one of us was worse or more extreme or anything.

[01:10:22] But I do think that Abe's background, because my dad was, like we said, like different and rebellious.

[01:10:29] Because I think that on his side, we had to kind of figure out how to unknit, you know, a lot of that conservative ideal.

[01:10:39] So that was challenging.

[01:10:41] And it was like one of those things, you know, I gave Scott an example, but I think one time we were fighting and Abe kind of said to me in a moment of just, you know, anger, just like, why won't you yield to me?

[01:10:52] You know?

[01:10:53] And it was like one of those things where we look at each other and we're like, oh, fuck.

[01:10:56] Like, you know, we both of us know we don't mean that.

[01:11:00] He doesn't really mean that.

[01:11:01] But it's like.

[01:11:02] But it came from someplace deep down.

[01:11:03] Yeah.

[01:11:05] It came from somewhere real deep.

[01:11:07] Like, yeah, exactly.

[01:11:08] And it's shocking.

[01:11:10] It's shocking.

[01:11:11] You say these things, you experience these emotions and you have to.

[01:11:17] I think it's good to acknowledge that you're having that you're having the emotion and why you're having the emotion.

[01:11:22] And then to also apologize to one another and then to see how can we because this is type of stuff.

[01:11:29] It's so deep that it's not something you just decide to not want to do again.

[01:11:34] You you it's it's an ongoing process and you have to commit to like growing together through it.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:41] Yeah.

[01:11:41] And it can be real uncomfortable and annoying and messy at times.

[01:11:45] Yeah.

[01:11:46] Because the programming, you know, go back to the computer analogy.

[01:11:48] Yeah.

[01:11:49] Those ones and zeros are deep into the memory of your system.

[01:11:55] There we go.

[01:11:56] I know computers.

[01:11:56] Right.

[01:11:57] And and I've used computers.

[01:11:59] You can't just say, I will.

[01:12:01] I don't think this anymore.

[01:12:02] Yeah.

[01:12:02] I won't feel this anymore because it's so embedded into the foundation of who you are.

[01:12:08] Yes.

[01:12:08] It's that.

[01:12:10] Yeah.

[01:12:10] It's it feel it's almost intrinsic.

[01:12:13] It's almost inseparable.

[01:12:14] Yeah.

[01:12:15] Because, you know, especially as pastors kids, it's like literally my dad was, I think, called

[01:12:23] to be a pastor when my sister was in my mom's womb.

[01:12:27] So it's like for us, it's like it's literally you're being prayed over.

[01:12:33] You're being taught these things from such an early age.

[01:12:38] Um, it's so hard to unbraid these things that have just been it's like, um, what one of those?

[01:12:47] What is it like?

[01:12:47] Is it Kevlar that's like braided together?

[01:12:50] I don't know.

[01:12:50] It's like one of those like military bulletproof vests out of it.

[01:12:53] Exactly.

[01:12:53] So I, I think that in our marriage, it has been an ongoing like negotiation with understanding

[01:13:05] and recognizing our former former upbringing and also like merging together to try and create

[01:13:13] a new reality today.

[01:13:15] Um, and I think, I think especially too with the sexual aspect of our relationship, it was

[01:13:24] extremely complicated at the outset, like before we were married.

[01:13:30] And it's weird.

[01:13:31] It was less of an issue for me because again, I think that a lot of, uh, the attention for

[01:13:38] specifically a certain type of like, you're going to hell guilt and shame is kind of focused

[01:13:44] on the men because it's like for women, it's like, don't lose it.

[01:13:47] But it, it never feels, I don't know.

[01:13:53] There's a lot of things for, for, for women, the way they're taught in church that it's kind

[01:13:56] of swept on.

[01:13:57] It's very euphemistic.

[01:13:58] It's swept under the rug.

[01:13:59] It's like, just don't lose your purity.

[01:14:01] Like don't be a whore.

[01:14:02] There's a lot of slut shaming, but there's not a lot of, um, like if you're a virgin,

[01:14:06] like it's kind of like, they kind of just put you in a holding cell and they don't really,

[01:14:10] you know, mess with you too much.

[01:14:12] But he dealt with so much guilt and shame, so much fear.

[01:14:16] And, um, it was like, even if philosophically he was fine with, with premarital sex, which

[01:14:25] is such a funny word.

[01:14:26] Um, but like, even though philosophically he was fine with it.

[01:14:30] Right.

[01:14:31] The programming.

[01:14:32] The programming.

[01:14:33] We're back to that.

[01:14:33] Yeah.

[01:14:34] It was like the matrix still had a hold on him.

[01:14:37] Yeah.

[01:14:39] And, and it kind of, I don't know if that ever fully goes away if it's so embedded.

[01:14:44] I mean, think about it.

[01:14:45] Like if you have a lifetime of indoctrination into this, like literal teaching every Sunday,

[01:14:52] Bible studies, stuff you listen to on the radio.

[01:14:55] That's all this programming going to.

[01:14:57] Remember I told the story when I was five, I said, men don't cook.

[01:15:00] And no one had even told me that.

[01:15:01] I just absorbed that.

[01:15:02] Yeah.

[01:15:04] Non-spoken, non, you know, intentional teaching.

[01:15:06] Mm-hmm.

[01:15:07] That, that's how I expressed it.

[01:15:10] Yeah.

[01:15:10] At a young age.

[01:15:11] But if you have a whole lifetime of actual insidious programming.

[01:15:15] Yeah.

[01:15:15] That's going to take a long time to, to break free from.

[01:15:20] Yeah.

[01:15:20] I mean, you still hear, um, you still, still hear a lot of stories.

[01:15:25] I think they called it, I remember reading something called like Cinderella syndrome where

[01:15:30] these Christian women, even though they would get married, um, they would still, they're

[01:15:37] like, I've gone from not having sex my whole life and being told that it was bad and like

[01:15:41] all these things, um, to then getting married and feeling like they're not, they don't want

[01:15:47] to have sex.

[01:15:47] Yeah.

[01:15:48] Cause it's wrong.

[01:15:48] It's wrong.

[01:15:49] It's the wrong thing to do.

[01:15:50] It's scary.

[01:15:51] Yeah.

[01:15:51] Yeah.

[01:15:51] It's, it's, it's not what they thought.

[01:15:53] They feel pressure.

[01:15:54] They feel all these things.

[01:15:55] They, they don't feel ready.

[01:15:56] And then you get, you know, embittered.

[01:15:59] And I'm sure there's men that feel that way.

[01:16:01] Like I'm, I'm sure there are, but you also get that your partner that you've married,

[01:16:05] they feel a little bit cheated.

[01:16:07] They feel a little bit.

[01:16:08] Cause they're entitled to a night, at least the wedding night of bliss.

[01:16:12] Exactly.

[01:16:12] Exactly.

[01:16:13] I'm trying to keep track, but like there, I've talked to six or seven different former

[01:16:18] students who cried on their wedding night.

[01:16:21] And then in my friend group from college, the intervarsity Christian fellowship, won't

[01:16:26] name names.

[01:16:26] Yeah.

[01:16:27] Three couples that I know who crying and weeping and gnashing of teeth on, on the wedding night,

[01:16:34] on the wedding night.

[01:16:35] That's so sad.

[01:16:36] Cause it just felt like they're doing something.

[01:16:37] They're sinning and they were going to go to hell because you can't just switch, flick

[01:16:42] the switch.

[01:16:43] And this is now God ordained amazing something.

[01:16:47] Oh, well.

[01:16:48] And that's part of why we wanted to bring this topic up because there's not a lot, like I

[01:16:53] know like people will sell you a book and sell you an audio book and then sell you like

[01:16:56] the conference that talks you through the book and the audio book.

[01:16:58] But there's not a lot of guidance for what sex looks like post purity culture within the

[01:17:06] marriage.

[01:17:06] And there is this weird like curtain that goes up when a couple gets married, like

[01:17:10] especially in the church.

[01:17:10] Like, you know, there's this kind of curtain that goes up that you can't really ask them

[01:17:14] about certain things anymore unless they volunteer information.

[01:17:16] There's some like subtle joking.

[01:17:19] Right.

[01:17:20] And everyone's just like, yeah, I'm married.

[01:17:23] A lot of eyebrows.

[01:17:24] Yeah.

[01:17:25] That's it.

[01:17:25] Right.

[01:17:25] Never anything like substantial to talk about.

[01:17:29] Yeah.

[01:17:29] Was it weird?

[01:17:30] Was it awkward?

[01:17:32] Was it?

[01:17:33] No, exactly.

[01:17:34] And that goes from everything from sex to the roles you play at home.

[01:17:38] Right.

[01:17:38] Like it's all tied together.

[01:17:40] It's all tied together.

[01:17:41] And there I think the thesis of this conversation is that's what can lend itself to extremism.

[01:17:48] Like that's what can lend itself to people taking what they've quote unquote learned in

[01:17:54] church and letting that run amok within their household.

[01:17:57] And we've already seen the damage it's done on our lives and the lives of people that we've

[01:18:02] cared about, you know, in different religious spaces or even non-religious spaces.

[01:18:07] Yes.

[01:18:07] This kind of rhetoric, this type of teachings.

[01:18:16] Yeah.

[01:18:26] Yeah.

[01:18:37] They breed shame, they breed guilt, and they breed just like a lack of connectivity.

[01:18:39] Yeah.

[01:18:39] We're often hidden behind a curtain, you know?

[01:18:43] Yep.

[01:18:43] And if we are the first, you know, we're not the first, but like if we are courageous enough

[01:18:48] to share our stories as scary as it is, because this is very vulnerable.

[01:18:53] Yeah.

[01:18:53] And a bit uncomfortable at times, you know, but the fact that we're doing that, hopefully

[01:18:58] it can create and spark larger conversations around it too.

[01:19:02] Yeah.

[01:19:03] I hope people write in to us to tell us if they related to any of this.

[01:19:10] So I want to know that, yeah, I want to know what people are thinking.

[01:19:14] And, um.

[01:19:16] Yeah.

[01:19:16] Hornychapel at gmail.com.

[01:19:18] Yeah.

[01:19:18] I'm still shocked that that wasn't taken.

[01:19:20] Yeah.

[01:19:23] I guess chapels typically aren't horny.

[01:19:25] So it's kind of like a, yeah, contradictory word.

[01:19:29] I was thinking like a Viking temple might be like a horny chapel, like, you know.

[01:19:34] True.

[01:19:34] There's probably horny temple already taken.

[01:19:36] Oh, horny temple.

[01:19:38] Oh, that's like a.

[01:19:38] Because chapel is kind of specific to like Christianity.

[01:19:41] Oh, right.

[01:19:42] Right.

[01:19:42] That's fair.

[01:19:43] That's fair.

[01:19:44] And Christians, um, only men are supposed to be horny.

[01:19:46] So.

[01:19:47] Only men get horny.

[01:19:48] I don't even know.

[01:19:50] Women never want sex.

[01:19:51] Just kidding.

[01:19:52] Um, well, thanks so much for sharing so candidly, Scott.

[01:19:56] I feel like I learned a lot.

[01:19:57] Yeah, you as well.

[01:19:57] Thank you.

[01:19:57] I feel like we never know when we hit record.

[01:20:00] We kind of have an idea of what we want to talk about.

[01:20:02] But I don't know how deep we're going to go.

[01:20:04] But yeah, we went there.

[01:20:05] We went places.

[01:20:06] We went so deep.

[01:20:08] We thrusted deep.

[01:20:10] Yeah.

[01:20:11] Into.

[01:20:12] Into the intimate conversation.

[01:20:13] Into the chapel.

[01:20:14] Yeah.

[01:20:15] Well, thanks for coming to the horny chapel.

[01:20:17] Remember, everyone, your body's a temple.

[01:20:19] And don't touch that people.

[01:20:52] And try not to blur.

[01:21:03] Fucking ain't worth it.

[01:21:50] And try not fucking ain't worth it.