Chapel Probation s4- The Horny Chapel #7- The Myth of Addiction in Purity Culture

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[00:00:20] All right. Okay. Welcome to the Thereafter Podcast, a place where we explore life on the other side of faith change.

[00:00:29] We're here to break down the binaries, deconstruct the dualities, and wander through what it looks like to live in the gray.

[00:00:37] In church, we were told that life after leaving would be a bitter wasteland of unfulfilling hedonism.

[00:00:43] But we've discovered quite the opposite.

[00:00:46] There's actually a vibrant community of people on the other side of faith who are finding and co-creating space for hope and healing.

[00:00:55] Come along as we explore the all-too-often uncharted expanse of evangelicalism, evolving faith, and the life thereafter.

[00:01:09] Subscribe to this podcast by visiting dauntless.fm.

[00:01:18] I'm Prisca, and welcome to The Horny Chapel, a limited series podcast where Scott Okamoto and I dive headfirst into the wild, wild world of evangelical purity culture.

[00:01:29] In each episode, we discuss purity culture in detail, highlighting both its absurdity and the damage caused by an abstinence-only rhetoric.

[00:01:37] We explore how our AAPI cultural influences, combined with the misogynistic sexual miseducation from the church, led to a unique brand of repression.

[00:01:46] But don't fret, dear listener. We also share how we found our way to a sex-positive mindset after breaking free.

[00:01:54] Ooh, welcome into The Horny Chapel!

[00:01:57] Never get tired of this song.

[00:01:59] We never. I will never. I feel like at my funeral, this will be the theme song.

[00:02:05] This is the song.

[00:02:06] Yeah. It's defined my life, so why not, you know?

[00:02:09] Have we talked about how we made the song?

[00:02:11] Have we talked about it?

[00:02:13] Have we even mentioned it?

[00:02:14] I don't know.

[00:02:16] Because we definitely should shout out Go Nakamura.

[00:02:18] Yeah. Oh my God.

[00:02:19] For singing.

[00:02:20] What a beautiful man.

[00:02:21] And playing some guitar.

[00:02:22] Yeah.

[00:02:23] And Abe.

[00:02:24] Abe.

[00:02:25] For drumming his ass off.

[00:02:26] My little husby.

[00:02:27] Yeah.

[00:02:27] Yeah.

[00:02:27] It's good.

[00:02:29] It's kind of a vibe, no?

[00:02:31] Yeah.

[00:02:31] No, I think I mentioned before, I get more compliments about the song than the actual podcast, so I'm

[00:02:38] not sure how I feel about that.

[00:02:39] I think what Scott's saying is we need more compliments on the podcast because we're feeling

[00:02:43] insecure.

[00:02:45] No, I'm kidding.

[00:02:45] Yeah.

[00:02:46] No, yeah, but Scott and I were thinking about coming up with a theme song.

[00:02:51] We're both musicians.

[00:02:53] Yes.

[00:02:54] And so, yeah, you wrote the lyrics and came up with the melody.

[00:02:57] Yeah.

[00:02:58] And then we got together and jammed on it for a couple hours.

[00:03:00] Yeah.

[00:03:01] So much fun.

[00:03:02] And then birthed a baby.

[00:03:03] And it was just better.

[00:03:04] I mean, with Go singing on it and playing guitar, it was just better than I could ever

[00:03:08] have imagined.

[00:03:09] And Go had no idea what we were talking about as far as purity culture.

[00:03:13] Yeah.

[00:03:13] We were trying to educate.

[00:03:15] And he's like, what the fuck?

[00:03:17] Yeah.

[00:03:17] He's a proper JA.

[00:03:18] He didn't grow up in the church.

[00:03:20] He grew up in a Buddhist family.

[00:03:21] Marginally Buddhist.

[00:03:22] And he's just looking at us through his eyes is cringy.

[00:03:29] It's like, he's looking.

[00:03:30] It's like, oh, you poor, broken, fucked up people.

[00:03:35] Yeah.

[00:03:35] And so we finalized the lyrics.

[00:03:37] We finalized kind of the sections of the song we wanted to do.

[00:03:40] Go.

[00:03:41] He has family up in NorCal.

[00:03:42] So he was up in NorCal.

[00:03:43] Yeah.

[00:03:44] And we were like, cool.

[00:03:45] Is it possible to get it done in the next week?

[00:03:47] Yeah.

[00:03:47] And he was like, I'm down to do it.

[00:03:49] I have time.

[00:03:50] But it's hard to find time to record it.

[00:03:52] Because my 12-year-old niece and nephew, they need to be in bed in order for me to do it

[00:03:57] because of the lyrics.

[00:03:59] Fucking ain't worth the hurt.

[00:04:01] Fucking ain't worth the hurt.

[00:04:03] Didn't he make that sound so soulful?

[00:04:05] It's so soulful.

[00:04:06] It's so soulful.

[00:04:07] I tried.

[00:04:07] So when you had the guide track, I tried singing it.

[00:04:10] Yeah.

[00:04:10] Just to see what it sounded like.

[00:04:11] Yeah.

[00:04:11] And it's not the same.

[00:04:12] Like we needed Go.

[00:04:15] I mean, you sounded great too.

[00:04:16] And I think Go has like, he has the ability with his voice to kind of create characters.

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:23] And world building almost.

[00:04:24] I felt like we were somewhere in the South.

[00:04:26] I feel like we were all wearing cowboy boots with spurs.

[00:04:30] You know, we were in this kind of like barren landscape.

[00:04:33] And the only water was just like leaving the church.

[00:04:37] I don't know.

[00:04:39] Yeah.

[00:04:39] That's a lovely image.

[00:04:41] Yeah.

[00:04:41] Go was able to paint that.

[00:04:42] I don't usually gravitate toward cowboy paraphernalia.

[00:04:46] Yeah.

[00:04:47] I feel like it's not for me.

[00:04:49] Well.

[00:04:50] There you go.

[00:04:51] Don't not consider trying it.

[00:04:52] True.

[00:04:52] If Beyonce can do it, so can we.

[00:04:55] All right.

[00:04:56] Beyonce made it a slay.

[00:04:58] Yeah.

[00:04:58] I just, yeah.

[00:04:59] Country music.

[00:05:00] Not my thing.

[00:05:01] No, yeah.

[00:05:01] No, I'm with you.

[00:05:02] Did you not watch old westerns?

[00:05:04] I did.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:05] Yeah.

[00:05:06] As a kid, but as I got older, I was like, oh, oh, this isn't for me.

[00:05:12] That's so.

[00:05:13] This is not me.

[00:05:14] I was never imagined to be in the saddle with my six guns and my badge, you know.

[00:05:19] That's so interesting.

[00:05:20] If anything, I'm the coolie, you know, being knocked into the river or blown up in the mountain.

[00:05:27] Building the railroad.

[00:05:28] Damn, that's real.

[00:05:29] Yeah.

[00:05:29] Because I definitely allowed myself to feel self-mythologized because.

[00:05:33] Oh.

[00:05:34] I didn't realize anything until I think I got to college.

[00:05:38] And then in my film theory classes, they were like, no, this does not serve the audiences

[00:05:43] that, you know, and I was like, oh, shit.

[00:05:45] Yeah.

[00:05:46] Nothing like taking ethnic studies to ruin all our childhood dreams.

[00:05:49] Yeah.

[00:05:49] Honestly.

[00:05:50] Let us stay in our little bubble of delusion.

[00:05:55] But yeah.

[00:05:56] Yeah.

[00:05:56] Yeah.

[00:05:56] I know.

[00:05:57] Speaking of Delulu.

[00:05:58] No kidding.

[00:05:59] But Scott, you just got back from a fun little journey to Atlanta.

[00:06:03] What were you doing there?

[00:06:05] I went and saw a week after you.

[00:06:07] Yeah.

[00:06:07] Our friend, former guest.

[00:06:10] Yes.

[00:06:10] Keiko Agena.

[00:06:11] Favorite person of the pod.

[00:06:12] Killing it in a play called The Chinese Lady.

[00:06:15] Oh.

[00:06:16] So good.

[00:06:17] So good.

[00:06:18] Did you cry?

[00:06:19] I was crying at the end.

[00:06:20] Yeah.

[00:06:21] Yeah.

[00:06:21] Like when she's saying like, see me and look at Mary.

[00:06:24] Yeah.

[00:06:25] Asking, do you see me?

[00:06:26] It's like.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:27] And she's reading off all the tragedies and horrors and murders of Chinese people.

[00:06:33] Yeah.

[00:06:33] About American history.

[00:06:35] It's pretty.

[00:06:37] Yeah.

[00:06:37] I think when her characters like basically upon her death, they had just signed the second

[00:06:43] Chinese Exclusion Act.

[00:06:44] And I was like, that was so fucking recent.

[00:06:48] Not that long ago in the grand scheme of things.

[00:06:51] No.

[00:06:51] And I don't know if you had the same experience.

[00:06:54] So the play ends and you're wiping away your tears and having those little like sobbing

[00:07:01] convulsions.

[00:07:02] Yeah.

[00:07:02] You're trying not to like openly weep basically.

[00:07:04] And then Keiko comes out smiling and you want to say, hey, you were so great.

[00:07:08] Yeah.

[00:07:08] But you're like.

[00:07:09] Hey.

[00:07:09] We're so.

[00:07:10] Hey, Keiko.

[00:07:11] It was really good.

[00:07:12] Yeah.

[00:07:13] I think I had a.

[00:07:14] I mean, obviously being her friend, it adds another layer to it.

[00:07:18] And I was sat next to her husband, Shin, our very good friend who was also feeling

[00:07:23] all the feelings.

[00:07:24] And I was next to my husband, Abe, who was also going through his myriad of feelings.

[00:07:28] So I think just experiencing it, especially as an ethnically Chinese person was a big

[00:07:36] layer.

[00:07:36] So it was just all around a very emotional experience.

[00:07:39] The story talks about like the first Chinese woman who was sold to the to America to be

[00:07:45] exhibited, to be put on display for essentially most of her adult life.

[00:07:49] Yeah.

[00:07:50] They couched it as like education or something.

[00:07:52] But really, it was just a freak show for white Americans.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:56] Yeah.

[00:07:57] And so Keiko has.

[00:07:58] I mean, she is just it's a it's a two hander.

[00:08:01] So it is her and Rex Lee.

[00:08:04] And they also great.

[00:08:07] So good.

[00:08:08] Great dynamic.

[00:08:09] Great, you know, chemistry.

[00:08:11] Really funny.

[00:08:13] And I feel like the funnier something is the sadder it can land.

[00:08:17] Oh, right.

[00:08:18] Good point.

[00:08:19] Yeah.

[00:08:20] Because as the play, it starts very lighthearted.

[00:08:24] Yeah.

[00:08:24] Yeah.

[00:08:24] There's some banter between them, but it just gets heavier and heavier.

[00:08:28] And you just realize it's like it's like a Titanic.

[00:08:31] There's an iceberg coming and it's the thing's going to sink.

[00:08:35] Yeah.

[00:08:35] And you know, it's going to fuck you up.

[00:08:37] Yeah.

[00:08:38] It's devastating.

[00:08:39] Yeah.

[00:08:39] And like we're saying this sort of spoilery because I don't know if it's ever going to

[00:08:43] be put on anywhere else.

[00:08:45] But if you have a chance to see it.

[00:08:47] Yeah.

[00:08:47] It's afterwards we were waiting for Keiko to come out and there was a group of like seven

[00:08:52] or eight.

[00:08:53] I'd say 30 something intellectuals.

[00:08:56] Yeah.

[00:08:56] A very diverse group of adults.

[00:09:00] And they were just expressing all the feelings.

[00:09:04] Right.

[00:09:04] They were all like processing their identities.

[00:09:08] Yeah.

[00:09:08] The play, it did, it moved something in them.

[00:09:11] Yeah.

[00:09:11] And it was like, ooh.

[00:09:13] Well, so it kind of reminds me because my husband was part of the cast of Cambodian

[00:09:16] Rock Band.

[00:09:16] Yeah.

[00:09:17] When the play was, shout out.

[00:09:19] When the play was at, in Ashland, Oregon at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, there would

[00:09:25] be these talkbacks and essentially it'd be these, you know, well-meaning white folks

[00:09:30] who lived in a purple dot in Oregon in a very red area standing up and basically defending

[00:09:38] themselves saying like, well, I didn't know this was happening.

[00:09:41] Nobody meant it evident to me.

[00:09:43] So it's like not my fault.

[00:09:44] It was like immediately defensive, you know?

[00:09:47] And like people having to kind of, other well-meaning white people having to kind of push back and

[00:09:51] be like, hey, this was there if you knew where to look.

[00:09:54] You just weren't looking in the right places.

[00:09:56] And they would battle it out with each other.

[00:09:58] And also it's not really about you.

[00:10:00] Exactly.

[00:10:00] With the cast of all Asian Americans just silently looking on.

[00:10:04] They're centering themselves.

[00:10:06] Yeah.

[00:10:06] Because that's how they live.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:08] Centered in all everything.

[00:10:09] But I think that's what's beautiful is when theater can create that need to process in

[00:10:14] real time.

[00:10:15] That might be the first step of awakening.

[00:10:17] Yeah.

[00:10:18] Of actually seeing the world from someone else's point of view that most white people

[00:10:22] don't have to do.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:24] A white person in America can live their entire life never having to empathize about what it's

[00:10:30] like to walk into a room and wonder about their identity.

[00:10:34] Yeah.

[00:10:34] That's what white privilege is.

[00:10:37] It's kind of crazy.

[00:10:38] And I do think speaking of awakenings in the lobby of the show, there were portraits of

[00:10:46] the six women who were slain in the Atlanta shootings back in 2021.

[00:10:53] Correct?

[00:10:54] Yeah.

[00:10:55] Yeah.

[00:10:56] And that was just, I think, walking out of the show.

[00:11:00] I think when you walk in and you kind of see it, you're kind of overwhelmed by everything

[00:11:04] in front of you.

[00:11:05] Yeah.

[00:11:06] Walking out of the show waiting for Keiko and absorbing the impact of the images of

[00:11:11] these women with their names kind of displayed very prominently, their stories displayed very

[00:11:17] prominently was a really stark reminder of this wasn't that long ago and it's still happening

[00:11:23] today.

[00:11:25] Yeah.

[00:11:26] With the added wrinkle of, with the Atlanta shootings of Christianity's effects, purity

[00:11:33] culture's effect that resulted in a man murdering women in cold blood.

[00:11:40] Yeah.

[00:11:41] Blaming them for his own quote unquote addiction to sex.

[00:11:46] Yeah.

[00:11:46] Particularly with the fetishization of Asian women.

[00:11:50] And so many layers.

[00:11:52] One of the things that I remember when all that was happening and, you know, I mean, trigger

[00:11:57] warning for listeners, you know, I know that event was, I don't know if there's even words

[00:12:03] that can in-house like the level of emotion it brought up for a lot of us.

[00:12:10] But the fact that it was labeled not a hate crime, even after it came out that he had said

[00:12:16] these things, you know, or, you know, put whatever up online or whatever of the fact

[00:12:21] that these women were tempting him.

[00:12:24] And so they need to, they needed to be taken care of and how the media immediately portrayed

[00:12:29] them as sex workers when all the evidence, whether they were or not, first of all, whether

[00:12:36] they were or not, it doesn't fucking matter.

[00:12:38] Right.

[00:12:38] But also upon closer inspection, like it's, there's no proof that they were.

[00:12:43] So, you know.

[00:12:45] Yeah.

[00:12:46] But yeah, I like your point.

[00:12:48] It doesn't matter.

[00:12:48] It doesn't matter.

[00:12:49] Even if they were.

[00:12:52] Because, yeah, I mean, sex work, it's work.

[00:12:55] Yeah.

[00:12:56] And it's, it's a factor in our culture.

[00:12:59] I think it only matters.

[00:13:00] There's, you know, it doesn't matter in the large, in the, you know, philosophical way

[00:13:04] of thinking of things.

[00:13:05] To you and me.

[00:13:06] Yeah.

[00:13:06] But it does matter for someone's like reputation for their family and their friends and their

[00:13:13] community.

[00:13:14] There are consequences because we live in a puritanical world.

[00:13:18] Yeah.

[00:13:19] I mean, inside church, outside church, that is still a big taboo.

[00:13:23] Yeah.

[00:13:24] So, but that is our topic for today.

[00:13:27] We want to talk about because of purity culture and because of the deep repression within their,

[00:13:32] they're within, it leads to and fuels certain types of behaviors.

[00:13:40] None of them good.

[00:13:41] None of them good.

[00:13:43] Rarely good.

[00:13:43] Rarely good.

[00:13:45] We'll try to think of something good.

[00:13:46] Maybe if you decided to learn how to make croissants to get over your horniness, maybe

[00:13:52] that is a good thing.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:54] Perhaps.

[00:13:54] We are pro croissant.

[00:13:56] Pro croissant.

[00:13:57] On this podcast.

[00:13:57] Yeah.

[00:13:58] Flaky pastry dough.

[00:13:59] Give it to us.

[00:14:00] Sourdough, maybe.

[00:14:01] Layers.

[00:14:02] Sourdough.

[00:14:03] Some sourdough bread.

[00:14:04] Yeah.

[00:14:05] But yeah, it's, it's interesting that that story in the, in the irony that you and I were

[00:14:12] both in Atlanta about a week apart.

[00:14:14] Yeah.

[00:14:14] Where this took place is a really good launching point for our discussion about one of the darkest

[00:14:22] parts of purity culture, which tied to patriarchy leads to violence against women.

[00:14:29] Ooh.

[00:14:30] Yeah.

[00:14:31] Talk, talk to me about that.

[00:14:32] Yeah.

[00:14:32] So that guy was, I forget if he said he was addicted to porn, but we can assume that's a

[00:14:38] factor.

[00:14:39] I guess he was visiting these massage parlors with Asian women.

[00:14:47] Most, I guess there was one white woman in the, in the group of women who were murdered.

[00:14:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:54] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:56] And okay.

[00:14:57] I don't want to cast judgment on people who go to massage parlors.

[00:15:01] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:01] We were talking earlier about our regular massage experiences.

[00:15:04] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:06] I've never actually been offered the happy ending.

[00:15:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:09] So I, we might have to go do some research.

[00:15:13] Yeah.

[00:15:13] But so in this guy's mind, it was a sin.

[00:15:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:18] Uh, for whatever reason.

[00:15:21] And the church he, he went to, we found out, did teach that, you know, this was a grave

[00:15:26] sin.

[00:15:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:27] There's demons involved.

[00:15:29] Jeez.

[00:15:30] And so he's thinking this is a life and death thing.

[00:15:33] He's a, he's quote unquote addicted to going to these massage parlors.

[00:15:38] Um, and so in his mind, based on the theological teachings of his church, he needed to eliminate

[00:15:45] the temptation because we've, we've heard that in church, right?

[00:15:48] Yeah.

[00:15:49] Just eliminate the temptation.

[00:15:51] You don't take it to that degree.

[00:15:53] Yeah.

[00:15:53] Uh, and murder, but usually that means move, removing yourself from a situation.

[00:15:58] Right.

[00:15:58] There would be the pastors every, uh, maybe Valentine's day, the pastor is talking about

[00:16:03] lust, you know?

[00:16:04] And no, so if you're alone with your girlfriend or boyfriend, things get too heavy, go outside

[00:16:08] and remove yourself from the temptation.

[00:16:11] Well, if anything, it's like cut off your arm then.

[00:16:14] Right?

[00:16:14] Well, right.

[00:16:14] Literally the Bible says if it causes you to sin or stumble, yeah.

[00:16:18] Cut your arm out.

[00:16:18] Gouge out your eye.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:20] Yeah.

[00:16:20] He didn't do that.

[00:16:21] No.

[00:16:21] And so in his mind, he felt completely justified in murdering women.

[00:16:26] Yeah.

[00:16:27] For simply existing and doing their occupation.

[00:16:31] Yeah.

[00:16:31] And it's, it's a he problem.

[00:16:33] Yeah.

[00:16:33] It's not the problem.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:35] But he saw it as a they problem because patriarchy, you know, the women are not as valued as men.

[00:16:41] And they are the evil temptresses, the Jezebels.

[00:16:45] Yeah.

[00:16:45] That need to be, you know, the story of Jezebel has been in the news because all the GOPs calling

[00:16:50] Kamala Harris a Jezebel.

[00:16:52] Jezebel was the temptress woman who needed to be thrown into the river or something.

[00:16:56] And literally they killed her.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] So, because she was a temptress.

[00:17:01] And so.

[00:17:02] It was all her fault.

[00:17:04] Honestly.

[00:17:04] Yeah.

[00:17:05] Her fault.

[00:17:05] It's all her fault.

[00:17:06] Yeah.

[00:17:06] Did you see the shirt she was wearing?

[00:17:08] The skirt she was wearing?

[00:17:09] Yeah.

[00:17:10] It was her fault.

[00:17:11] Yeah.

[00:17:11] It's obvious.

[00:17:12] Yeah.

[00:17:13] Justice for the river.

[00:17:15] Too much skin.

[00:17:16] Because it has a Jezebel in it.

[00:17:17] Tattoos.

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:18] But yeah.

[00:17:19] Yeah.

[00:17:20] And so in this guy's mind, he's doing the right thing.

[00:17:22] And the church was embarrassed.

[00:17:28] Their response was like, well, he didn't mean it that.

[00:17:30] Like that.

[00:17:31] Yeah.

[00:17:31] Yeah.

[00:17:31] But yeah, that's what they teach is to eliminate temptation because it's a life and death thing.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:39] There's demons.

[00:17:41] Your very soul is hanging in the balance according to this because of fucking purity culture.

[00:17:46] And it's just if people could just happily jerk off or happily watch porn or happily have

[00:17:53] sex without all the guilt and shame, we wouldn't have most of these problems.

[00:17:58] Yeah.

[00:17:59] I think.

[00:18:00] Or yeah, they may not present this extremely.

[00:18:04] Right.

[00:18:04] Like this is an extreme example, but it's also like we talk about a lot, like the logical

[00:18:10] end point of purity culture.

[00:18:12] If you, the church can say, well, we didn't mean it like that.

[00:18:15] But it's also like you can't give someone a tool and be surprised by how they use it.

[00:18:22] You know, like, of course, a hammer is meant to hit a nail.

[00:18:24] But if someone destroys a room with it, you know, that's just kind of the logical end point.

[00:18:31] And it is actually a proper use of that tool.

[00:18:34] It just depends on the intention.

[00:18:35] But I think what we really want to talk about today is just similarly to the last episode,

[00:18:43] talking about how repression can then concentrate a lot of these feelings or desires or behaviors.

[00:18:57] And they kind of come out in different ways.

[00:18:59] And an experience that I've seen and, you know, and witnessed is almost like a bifurcation of self.

[00:19:06] There is the self that is appropriate for church and your church community in which you might be a leader,

[00:19:15] in which you might be a happily married person, in which you are, you know, a mentor to some and a friend to all, you know.

[00:19:23] And then there is the not appropriate for church version of yourself.

[00:19:28] Again, this is not a judgment on that.

[00:19:31] This is just a observation of this kind of of something that happens really often.

[00:19:38] You know, when you are asked to repress like every human side of yourself,

[00:19:42] you're going to split yourself into pieces in order to exist in both.

[00:19:47] And whether you want to or not, sometimes you can't deny, you know,

[00:19:53] you can't deny a human being of their propensities for too long without it having consequences.

[00:20:01] Yeah.

[00:20:02] There's just natural human emotion and desires and activities that the church Christianity tells you is wrong.

[00:20:13] Yeah.

[00:20:14] And then they also say God created us this way.

[00:20:17] Right.

[00:20:17] Which is, thanks a lot.

[00:20:20] Yeah.

[00:20:21] When you were talking, I was thinking of, I used to go hunting.

[00:20:24] Yeah.

[00:20:25] I'm confessing.

[00:20:26] A pheasant.

[00:20:27] Oh.

[00:20:28] With my dad.

[00:20:29] And he would take some of the pastors of our church.

[00:20:33] Yeah.

[00:20:33] Because they were manly men.

[00:20:36] And one time, I forget what happened.

[00:20:38] Like the dog scared the birds away too far and we couldn't shoot them.

[00:20:42] And I forget who said it.

[00:20:43] Someone yelled, oh shit.

[00:20:44] Oh.

[00:20:45] And we're with like three pastors.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:47] And their son, their grown sons.

[00:20:50] And everyone was like, oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

[00:20:52] Yeah.

[00:20:53] It's like, but one of the pastors was like, no, that's the right word.

[00:20:58] Or something.

[00:20:59] Maybe I'll give it a little homily about, because he had to figure out how to connect those two worlds that you're just talking about.

[00:21:05] Yeah.

[00:21:05] It's a bifurcation of ourselves.

[00:21:07] Yeah.

[00:21:07] In church.

[00:21:08] Versus.

[00:21:09] You would never say shit.

[00:21:10] No.

[00:21:10] In front of your pastor on Sunday.

[00:21:12] No.

[00:21:13] And you're all dressed up and, you know, singing songs.

[00:21:15] But out shooting birds.

[00:21:17] Yeah.

[00:21:20] And we had a beer afterwards.

[00:21:21] Right.

[00:21:22] It's like, I didn't.

[00:21:23] I was underage.

[00:21:23] But like, yeah, it was like that pastor in that moment had to navigate between those two worlds.

[00:21:30] And sort of reconcile them.

[00:21:31] And that's a mild thing, just saying a word.

[00:21:34] Oh, that's a mental gymnastics to do right then.

[00:21:36] Yeah.

[00:21:37] But if it takes that much mental gymnastics just to explain a swear word.

[00:21:42] Yeah.

[00:21:42] And justify it in a situation, a context.

[00:21:44] Yeah.

[00:21:46] It's just that much more complicated when it comes to sex and sexuality.

[00:21:49] So true.

[00:21:50] We're going to talk about alcohol.

[00:21:52] Yeah.

[00:21:53] And different kinds of quote unquote addictions.

[00:21:56] Yeah.

[00:21:56] And other risky behavior.

[00:21:58] Risky behavior.

[00:21:59] Yeah.

[00:21:59] And it's and a lot of this risky behavior we're going to find, I think, is what we will argue.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:05] Is that is not necessary if you could just have a healthy, balanced approach to life.

[00:22:10] Because I think that if you problematize normal human desires and propensities and actions.

[00:22:18] Yeah.

[00:22:18] It's going to create.

[00:22:22] It's still going to occur.

[00:22:24] It's just going to occur underground.

[00:22:26] Yeah.

[00:22:26] And it and because it's hidden and because it's forbidden and it's because it's a shame

[00:22:32] shame and guilt ridden.

[00:22:33] It's going to become more and more extreme, you know.

[00:22:37] Yeah.

[00:22:37] Because you're unable to like we talked about last episode, like learn to regulate certain

[00:22:41] things.

[00:22:42] Yeah.

[00:22:42] You know.

[00:22:43] And yeah, there's this sometimes.

[00:22:46] And I felt this in myself.

[00:22:48] There's this kind of like idea that.

[00:22:52] Well, if I've already fucked up, then let me fuck it up all the way.

[00:22:56] Like, you know.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:58] And that leads to just like a risky mindset.

[00:23:01] I feel like risky behavior is like also a term used by the church.

[00:23:05] So I'm like feeling like I'm triggering myself saying it.

[00:23:08] So, yeah, it's not that it's just.

[00:23:11] Yeah.

[00:23:11] It's a risky mindset of.

[00:23:14] Of maybe searching for oblivion of literally just saying like, well, literally fuck it and

[00:23:20] throw it in the trash.

[00:23:21] Like, I don't give a shit.

[00:23:22] You're like, you know, I've already fucked up.

[00:23:24] But I'm already, let's say irredeemable to a certain degree.

[00:23:30] So fuck it.

[00:23:31] Let's just like.

[00:23:32] Yeah.

[00:23:32] Who gives a who gives a fuck?

[00:23:33] Well, because according to the Bible.

[00:23:36] Yeah.

[00:23:37] It's worse to be lukewarm.

[00:23:39] Yeah.

[00:23:39] So either.

[00:23:40] Right.

[00:23:40] So go big or go home.

[00:23:42] Oh, my gosh.

[00:23:42] The Bible.

[00:23:43] Wow.

[00:23:43] The Bible's encouraging this quote unquote risky behavior.

[00:23:47] Yeah.

[00:23:47] You don't want to be waffling in between.

[00:23:49] No.

[00:23:49] So if you're going to hell, you're going to get spit.

[00:23:52] God will spit you out of his mouth because you're fucking lukewarm.

[00:23:57] So.

[00:23:57] Shit.

[00:23:58] But if you're hot or cold.

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:00] Whichever thing is hot or whichever is cold.

[00:24:03] Yeah.

[00:24:03] You don't want to be in the middle.

[00:24:04] No.

[00:24:05] So be good.

[00:24:06] Be bad.

[00:24:07] Be bold.

[00:24:08] There's actually a theology that was explained to me by a prof at APU.

[00:24:13] If you're going to sin, sin boldly.

[00:24:15] Oh.

[00:24:18] And this was a prof who was into some things.

[00:24:21] Wow.

[00:24:23] Okay.

[00:24:24] I want to see what their closet was like.

[00:24:25] I'm writing about this in a substack, but like this prof was a swinger.

[00:24:31] Okay.

[00:24:32] Very conservative Christian by day.

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:35] Wine connoisseur, semi-alcoholic, swingerish lifestyle that he told me in confidence once.

[00:24:44] Oh, so it was hidden from the world?

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:47] The whole world had no idea.

[00:24:48] Holy fuck.

[00:24:49] Although I have to say this.

[00:24:51] He also counts.

[00:24:52] It was a student.

[00:24:53] We had a common student who was getting married.

[00:24:56] Yeah.

[00:24:56] That's what you do at this school when you're.

[00:24:59] Oh, sure.

[00:24:59] Ring by spring.

[00:25:00] When you're 20.

[00:25:00] Yeah.

[00:25:01] And he was giving them premarital counseling.

[00:25:04] And the kid came to me and he said, Professor so-and-so is telling us to have an open marriage.

[00:25:12] Woo.

[00:25:14] Wow.

[00:25:14] I was like, what?

[00:25:16] Low key.

[00:25:17] Low key.

[00:25:18] I'm for that.

[00:25:19] But.

[00:25:19] Yeah.

[00:25:19] Yeah.

[00:25:19] But it's like, but he, it was, I found it hypocritical because he also taught Sunday

[00:25:25] school at this big mega church, you know, and that's not what he's preaching.

[00:25:32] No.

[00:25:33] In public.

[00:25:34] Right.

[00:25:34] Yeah.

[00:25:34] Yeah.

[00:25:35] So I wasn't sure why he would do this knowing that this kid talked to other people.

[00:25:42] Wow.

[00:25:42] I was doing an independent study with him.

[00:25:44] Yeah.

[00:25:45] So that's how I found out.

[00:25:45] And that's why I started asking.

[00:25:47] So what's going on with you, man?

[00:25:48] Whoa.

[00:25:49] And he knew I wasn't judgmental.

[00:25:50] Yeah.

[00:25:50] I was, I don't judge, you know, want to be a swinger, be a swinger.

[00:25:55] But.

[00:25:55] But I feel like, and I could be totally wrong, but I feel like he was like leaking all over

[00:25:59] the place.

[00:26:00] Like, you know what I mean?

[00:26:01] He was, this internal struggle that he had been putting on for long enough was starting

[00:26:06] to just kind of.

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:07] You can't keep that charade up for too long.

[00:26:10] I mean, he must have said it some, because he told, he would tell his students, sin boldly.

[00:26:15] If you're going through sin.

[00:26:16] What was his framing?

[00:26:17] Yeah.

[00:26:18] I don't know.

[00:26:18] There's some kind of, I forget which theological framework this is.

[00:26:22] I'm not great with theology.

[00:26:23] Yeah.

[00:26:24] But it was what we've been joking about, like the lukewarm thing.

[00:26:28] Yeah.

[00:26:28] So if you're going to sin, just fucking sin.

[00:26:31] Yeah.

[00:26:31] It was the attitude.

[00:26:32] Because you're going to get forgiven.

[00:26:34] Yeah.

[00:26:34] That's built into the process.

[00:26:36] Right.

[00:26:37] So don't sin gently.

[00:26:40] Yeah.

[00:26:41] Just go for it.

[00:26:42] Wow.

[00:26:43] That's pretty fucked up.

[00:26:44] I don't know.

[00:26:45] I don't know.

[00:26:47] Yeah.

[00:26:48] And I inserted like, well, what if you don't think it's a sin?

[00:26:52] Yeah.

[00:26:53] And then he was like, no, no, it's a sin.

[00:26:56] I'm like, does it have to be?

[00:26:58] Oh, I wonder if that was part of his kink.

[00:27:01] Because the Bible is full of non-monogamy.

[00:27:03] Yeah.

[00:27:04] So what he's telling this kid, it doesn't fit in the framework of the culture we live in.

[00:27:09] Sure.

[00:27:10] Not even outside of the church.

[00:27:11] It's not okay to be cheating, quote unquote.

[00:27:14] But it's technically biblical.

[00:27:16] Yeah.

[00:27:16] It's more biblical than the nuclear family that we see.

[00:27:19] So anyway, back to the point of like the bifurcation of the mind.

[00:27:24] Yeah.

[00:27:24] It's like.

[00:27:25] Damn.

[00:27:26] What?

[00:27:26] Some far reaching places.

[00:27:28] Well, interestingly, this puritanical conservative morality that it's taught by most Christians

[00:27:35] today, especially the GOP.

[00:27:36] Project 2025 is a horror story of all this high control of, you know, they're going to outlaw

[00:27:44] porn.

[00:27:44] Yeah.

[00:27:45] They're going to outlaw sex work.

[00:27:46] They're going to outlaw abortions.

[00:27:47] It's going to go so well.

[00:27:49] Which none of this is biblical.

[00:27:51] You can't find verses.

[00:27:52] You know, they didn't have the internet, obviously, in the Old Testament.

[00:27:56] But.

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:57] Or magazines for that.

[00:27:59] Yeah.

[00:27:59] I mean, they had sexy art.

[00:28:01] Sure.

[00:28:02] A nipple in there or two.

[00:28:04] Yeah.

[00:28:05] Or, you know, dog people, gods coming down and having sex with people, you know, the

[00:28:12] Greek.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] I just.

[00:28:14] It's hard for me to understand.

[00:28:16] It's hard for me to understand the obsession with recreating.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:22] Don't cause him to stumble.

[00:28:27] You might miss the rapture.

[00:28:31] Hey, everyone.

[00:28:32] I'm Nate from the Full Mutuality podcast.

[00:28:35] I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for tuning into this show.

[00:28:38] We're so grateful that you've decided to spend your time with us.

[00:28:42] Seriously, Dan, Gail, Jessica, Kathleen, Scott, and the rest of us here at the Dauntless Media Collective couldn't produce content like the show you're listening to without your support.

[00:28:51] I'd also like to invite you even further into the conversation.

[00:28:55] Right now, there are some great discussions happening over in the Dauntless Media Collective Discord server.

[00:29:00] If you're interested in chatting with other folks who are deconstructing and decolonizing the oppressive traditions that they came from, please feel free to hop on into the server.

[00:29:09] If you don't know what Discord is, it's a place where communities can gather online for chatting on a wide variety of topics.

[00:29:16] In our Discord server, we have channels devoted to general deconstruction conversations, some meme sharing, therapeutic venting about whatever religious bullshit you're currently dealing with,

[00:29:26] and even a channel specifically devoted to talking about the latest episodes of the podcast you're listening to right now.

[00:29:32] I hope you'll join us.

[00:29:33] You can log in directly to the Dauntless server by clicking the link in the show notes or heading to dauntless.fm and clicking the link in the top banner.

[00:29:41] See you there.

[00:29:45] But anyway, just and the obsession that Christians just have with sex.

[00:29:49] Yeah.

[00:29:50] It seems to be part of every facet of a church policy.

[00:29:55] Yeah.

[00:29:55] It was part of every facet of policy at APU when it was there.

[00:29:59] Every rule is, almost every rule is a nod to, you want to have sex, we want to prevent that.

[00:30:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:07] So.

[00:30:08] I mean, yeah, I guess my personal experience with this was once I did have premarital sex,

[00:30:19] it totally threw me for a loop because I was like, do I not give a shit anymore?

[00:30:26] Whether I, you know, I have a lot of sexual partners.

[00:30:33] Like, do I not give a shit about it anymore?

[00:30:35] Because I absolutely still do.

[00:30:36] But also, like, I've already broken the seal.

[00:30:39] So is there any real reason not to just say fuck it and just go for it?

[00:30:46] You know, what's really holding me back at this point?

[00:30:49] Because there's no, if virginity is the only measure of purity that is acceptable, anything

[00:30:56] below that, it, you're, you're already like, well, what, like, what is the point?

[00:31:02] Right.

[00:31:02] And we've even talked about, like, is virginity even a thing?

[00:31:05] Right.

[00:31:06] No.

[00:31:06] Right.

[00:31:07] But, but since it's preached some, like, it's.

[00:31:10] No, it's instilled in us that it is.

[00:31:11] It's instilled in us, yeah.

[00:31:12] It's the biggest thing.

[00:31:13] Yeah.

[00:31:14] And, and so then I feel like I, I experienced a lot of women around me who lived very extreme

[00:31:27] realities almost, like where they would, like, we would all be out at the clubs and,

[00:31:31] like, go home with people and then, like, wash up and go to church and, like, cry, you know,

[00:31:38] in repentance.

[00:31:39] Yeah.

[00:31:40] That's the point of my, my former colleague.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:42] Go big.

[00:31:44] Right.

[00:31:44] And then get forgiveness.

[00:31:46] But you're living in constant turmoil.

[00:31:49] Yeah.

[00:31:49] You know, in that way of, like, you hate your behavior, but there's also not a really good

[00:31:57] incentive or reason or theology to not do it anymore.

[00:32:03] And so you're just torn between these selves.

[00:32:07] And, like, as long as it's a sin, you're always going to be steeped in that guilt and that shame.

[00:32:14] Yeah.

[00:32:14] Yeah.

[00:32:15] And, and with, with the fact looming over you that you will never be pure again.

[00:32:23] Not, you can get, you know, whatever, rejuvenated, re-virginized or whatever, but you will know

[00:32:29] that that is just, that is just someone giving you, I don't know, it almost feels like a pity

[00:32:34] invite, you know?

[00:32:36] Yeah.

[00:32:37] It's just like, it's kind of, it's pretty fucked up.

[00:32:39] It is.

[00:32:40] When that, you put that much weight on a natural human interaction of sex.

[00:32:47] Yeah.

[00:32:48] Yeah.

[00:32:48] Of some kind.

[00:32:49] And then again, and because I think last episode kind of did set up this episode, it's like.

[00:32:58] Our sexual awakening of.

[00:33:00] Yeah.

[00:33:01] Or, you know, with Esther.

[00:33:02] Oh, with Esther.

[00:33:03] That would be the last one.

[00:33:04] Yeah.

[00:33:06] Um, it's just like one of these things where you're not learning to self-regulate.

[00:33:12] You're just, you're just operating because it's like, fuck it.

[00:33:16] It's fuck it.

[00:33:18] You know, you're not paying attention.

[00:33:20] A lot of people, this is not everybody.

[00:33:22] Right.

[00:33:22] But like, I felt that when I was like in this phase of my life, you're just like, well,

[00:33:27] fuck it.

[00:33:28] And you're not thinking about like, what are my preferences?

[00:33:31] What do I actually want?

[00:33:32] What's actually good for me?

[00:33:33] What am I actually comfortable with?

[00:33:35] Like, like what?

[00:33:36] Like how far is too far for me, Priscilla?

[00:33:39] Not like me.

[00:33:40] Um, the, the Christian person, you know, not me because like, quote unquote, my pastor said

[00:33:46] this.

[00:33:47] Um, and, and I feel like that loss then leads you to act very, uh, just like, yeah, risky

[00:33:56] behavior.

[00:33:56] Recklessly?

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:58] Reckless.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:33:59] I think that's exactly the right word.

[00:34:00] It, it can lead you to act recklessly in a way where it's not actually, um, it's not

[00:34:08] actually grabbing onto additional self autonomy.

[00:34:12] Right.

[00:34:12] It's just another.

[00:34:13] Yeah.

[00:34:14] It's reactive.

[00:34:15] You know, it's reactive to purity culture.

[00:34:18] Yeah.

[00:34:19] Yeah.

[00:34:19] Instead of just living your life.

[00:34:21] Mm hmm.

[00:34:22] Um, yeah.

[00:34:23] And then it drives.

[00:34:24] So when I've been in a lot of Bible studies.

[00:34:26] Yeah.

[00:34:27] With dudes who struggle with lust, you know, and they feel so guilty.

[00:34:34] Uh, the last Bible study I was in, I think the Titanic movie had come out.

[00:34:39] Oh, that was a horny time.

[00:34:41] That was a very horny time.

[00:34:43] It was a horny time in general.

[00:34:45] Just in general.

[00:34:46] I feel like movies in that era.

[00:34:48] Late nineties, early two thousands.

[00:34:49] It was mid nineties.

[00:34:50] Mid nineties.

[00:34:51] Yeah.

[00:34:51] Okay.

[00:34:52] Oh.

[00:34:52] Late nineties.

[00:34:53] What?

[00:34:53] Ninety seven.

[00:34:54] Is that when it was?

[00:34:55] I feel.

[00:34:55] Yeah.

[00:34:55] Actually, I was in a Bible study after that.

[00:34:57] Anyway, maybe we're the last Bible study was in.

[00:35:00] Someone brought up.

[00:35:01] Oh, it was the last Bible study.

[00:35:02] It wasn't because one of the guys was like really into film.

[00:35:04] Okay.

[00:35:05] It was like a, in film school or something.

[00:35:06] Oh, a film buff.

[00:35:07] But he was Christian.

[00:35:07] So he was always like, but you know, our written movies bad.

[00:35:11] I don't know how you study film, but yeah.

[00:35:14] Anyway, he was talking about the genius of Titanic.

[00:35:17] Yeah.

[00:35:17] But he had to also say, oh, but you know, well, there's that sex scene that, you know,

[00:35:21] we just don't watch, you know,

[00:35:22] or we fast forward through that.

[00:35:25] I just need to say that is the wrong, from a film theory point of view, that is the wrong

[00:35:29] way to read a film because you're not supposed to apply any judgments to it.

[00:35:33] You're supposed to read it as a text and argue it.

[00:35:35] As a Christian.

[00:35:36] Yeah.

[00:35:37] You're obligated.

[00:35:39] Whether you would think it or not.

[00:35:40] It's just like, if you bring up an R-rated movie, you have to say, oh yeah, but the nipple

[00:35:45] bad.

[00:35:46] Yeah.

[00:35:47] Yeah.

[00:35:47] Sorry.

[00:35:48] I saw it, you know.

[00:35:50] Okay.

[00:35:51] MPAA.

[00:35:52] Like Jesus.

[00:35:52] Yeah.

[00:35:53] Okay.

[00:35:54] Fine.

[00:35:54] Fair.

[00:35:54] Whatever.

[00:35:55] Yeah.

[00:35:55] No, not fair, but fuck that person.

[00:35:57] Yeah.

[00:35:57] Anyway.

[00:35:58] Seriously.

[00:35:59] But I think it just fetishizes something that's just normal.

[00:36:02] Yeah.

[00:36:02] And I'm not saying the sex scene in Titanic was good or bad.

[00:36:07] I'm just saying sex between people is a normal thing.

[00:36:12] So when you drive it as this forbidden taboo that's the worst possible thing, it drives

[00:36:19] men underground to porn.

[00:36:22] And I'm not even saying porn's bad or good.

[00:36:23] But I'm just saying-

[00:36:25] But the impetus to arrive at porn.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:27] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:32] I mean, you know, I imagine they're just watching and jerking off and getting off, but

[00:36:37] like feeling immediately horrible about this.

[00:36:41] Post-nut clarity kind of sets in.

[00:36:42] Right?

[00:36:43] Yeah.

[00:36:43] And so it doesn't have to be that way.

[00:36:47] Yeah.

[00:36:48] Well, I think what's interesting is I'm realizing as you're speaking that the reason why I think

[00:36:54] our podcast can go to a lot of topics is because, yeah, purity culture, as we're talking

[00:36:59] about it, it's very specific.

[00:37:00] It's in the evangelical church.

[00:37:02] However, America as a whole is like very puritanical.

[00:37:05] And yeah.

[00:37:06] It's like two, it speaks out of both sides, right?

[00:37:09] Because it's totally pushing sex.

[00:37:12] Sex sells.

[00:37:12] Yeah.

[00:37:12] In every ad, in every movie, in every image that gets printed.

[00:37:16] Yeah.

[00:37:17] There's something phallic or something that looks like a boob.

[00:37:19] Yeah.

[00:37:19] It's just, and they know this and they know that works.

[00:37:21] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:22] At the same time, they're going to slut shame you for it.

[00:37:25] Yeah.

[00:37:25] They're going to make you feel bad for it.

[00:37:27] Well, and I guess the more forbidden it is, the more desirable it is.

[00:37:30] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] Yeah.

[00:37:31] You have to show, you can show less to elicit more.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:35] Yeah.

[00:37:36] Yeah.

[00:37:37] I was talking to a Dutch friend of mine and he's like, you fucking Americans are so weird.

[00:37:41] Like all of our bathhouses are co-ed and I just, it's not like I'm just going to look

[00:37:45] at a nipple and get a boner.

[00:37:47] Yeah.

[00:37:47] Like it's just a part of a body.

[00:37:49] It's like looking at an animal leg.

[00:37:52] Oh, I've been to nude beaches.

[00:37:53] Yeah.

[00:37:53] And when it's cold, I can't, I wouldn't even get a boner if I wanted to.

[00:38:02] Fair.

[00:38:02] Fair.

[00:38:03] Thank you for sharing.

[00:38:06] Fair.

[00:38:07] I mean, I totally could.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:08] You totally could.

[00:38:08] You totally could.

[00:38:09] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Yeah.

[00:38:10] Yeah.

[00:38:10] You totally could.

[00:38:12] No, but it doesn't occur.

[00:38:14] No.

[00:38:14] In a context that isn't inherently sexual, seeing a bunch of naked people, it is, it's

[00:38:22] shocking at first, but like, yeah, it doesn't immediately, because the church would have you

[00:38:27] believe that if you see a naked woman, you're just going to lose your shit.

[00:38:32] Equals lust.

[00:38:33] Yeah.

[00:38:34] Equals, yeah.

[00:38:34] Yeah.

[00:38:35] Equals an insatiable desire for her.

[00:38:38] And if you're pre-programmed for that, then maybe that does happen because it's like self-fulfilling

[00:38:44] prophecy.

[00:38:44] Yeah.

[00:38:45] It's, it's, it's spotlight theory or whatever you're going to call it.

[00:38:48] Yeah.

[00:38:49] Oh, well, I'm seeing this.

[00:38:50] So therefore I need to act this way or respond this way.

[00:38:55] Well, it's like the whole thing of like, don't think of a pink elephant.

[00:38:58] Don't do it.

[00:38:59] Don't do it.

[00:39:00] Exactly.

[00:39:01] All of us just imagined.

[00:39:04] I just imagined a pink elephant with nipples.

[00:39:06] Oh, I was going to say with a penis for a trunk.

[00:39:08] See?

[00:39:09] All right.

[00:39:14] We haven't been even been drinking.

[00:39:16] No, we're stone cold sober.

[00:39:18] Stone cold sober.

[00:39:20] And so Scott kind of, you know, obviously we talk about sex a lot about a lot about sex

[00:39:24] on this podcast, but what other behaviors do you feel like this could be encapsulated

[00:39:31] within?

[00:39:34] Outside of sex?

[00:39:35] Yeah.

[00:39:36] Well, it could be anything, whatever the church, whatever your pastor is telling you

[00:39:40] not to do.

[00:39:42] Now, okay.

[00:39:43] You don't kill people.

[00:39:45] That's in the 10 commandments.

[00:39:46] Fine.

[00:39:46] That's fair.

[00:39:47] Sure.

[00:39:48] We have lines.

[00:39:49] But like alcohol, you know, which I can't drink a lot, but, um, the Bible is of two minds.

[00:39:57] And so, you know, be not drunk with wine, Paul says, but he also says wine, a little wine

[00:40:01] is good for the stomach.

[00:40:02] And then Jesus keeps a raging fucking party going as his first miracle to show his divinity.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:09] So what are we supposed to think?

[00:40:11] So most Christians say, well, just avoid it.

[00:40:14] Just be safe, I guess.

[00:40:15] Yeah.

[00:40:15] You know, and I would always drive my students nuts because I would say, you mean to tell me

[00:40:20] that Jesus showed up and he took this pitcher of water and he turned it into wine, poured

[00:40:28] you a glass and hand, Jesus Christ is handing you a glass of the wine he just made with his

[00:40:33] power.

[00:40:34] Yeah.

[00:40:34] You would say, no, Jesus, I don't drink.

[00:40:37] I don't think you should either.

[00:40:42] Their minds are just like, whoa, what?

[00:40:45] But, oh, that's like a MC Escher drawing.

[00:40:49] But if I go up, but then I'm down and then I'm under and I'm over.

[00:40:54] Well, and I think what's interesting, like, about drinking in general and like church culture

[00:40:59] and whatnot is just that I find that a lot of churches, especially for adults, are pretty

[00:41:06] ambiguous about like exactly what their stance is on it.

[00:41:09] However, I do feel that purity culture and repression does lead a lot of us to not be able

[00:41:16] to express or, you know, live within our true selves.

[00:41:21] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:41:23] You know, you deaden away whatever side of the vine, you know, and I do think that weirdly

[00:41:28] drinking can be a way to without inhibitions then express parts of yourself.

[00:41:34] You know, like some people get very horny when they drink, you know, because and men get very

[00:41:40] grabby when they drink.

[00:41:41] But I do think like if you're in Christian spaces with men that are very repressed, start

[00:41:47] drinking all of a sudden this kind of like interesting.

[00:41:50] I don't want to say the word creepy, but tending towards creepy behavior kind of gets released,

[00:41:56] you know, that they're able to control and police when they're sober.

[00:42:01] But then they become somebody else when they're drinking.

[00:42:04] Yeah.

[00:42:04] And that's definitely the dark side of it.

[00:42:08] Because.

[00:42:10] And if a church is coming at it from that point of view, I get it.

[00:42:14] I can respect that because it's.

[00:42:18] It's one of those things where it's not a cut and dry, good or bad thing.

[00:42:22] No, it is what it is.

[00:42:23] Yeah.

[00:42:24] But if they could just approach it as it is what it is, you may have a history of a genetic

[00:42:30] history of alcohol.

[00:42:31] Yeah.

[00:42:32] Fair.

[00:42:32] You probably shouldn't drink.

[00:42:35] If you know you have all this rage repressed and you have a few beers and you get violent,

[00:42:42] something to be aware of.

[00:42:43] Yeah.

[00:42:44] But it's never taught in that practical way.

[00:42:47] There's no nuance.

[00:42:48] It's always like demons will come in and fuck up your whole life.

[00:42:52] Yeah.

[00:42:53] And they go too far.

[00:42:55] Yeah.

[00:42:55] And like with sex, they just criminalize it.

[00:42:58] Yeah.

[00:42:58] As a blanket thing.

[00:42:59] And they make it bigger than it needs to be.

[00:43:02] No.

[00:43:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:43:04] And with, again, no self, no talk of self-regulation.

[00:43:08] Yeah.

[00:43:09] Or nuance.

[00:43:10] Yeah.

[00:43:10] Or individual situations.

[00:43:12] Yeah.

[00:43:13] Yeah.

[00:43:14] Propensities and desires.

[00:43:15] And with alcohol stuff because there is actual physical addiction.

[00:43:19] Yeah.

[00:43:19] Possible.

[00:43:20] I can't because I get the Asian glow and I feel like I'm going to die.

[00:43:23] But yeah, and we've talked earlier, like we've seen our people we know react differently

[00:43:31] when they're drunk.

[00:43:32] Yeah.

[00:43:32] Some are happy.

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:34] Great.

[00:43:34] Some are angry.

[00:43:35] And some, I've seen people just burst into tears.

[00:43:38] Like, man, that is not, that does not look fun.

[00:43:41] Yeah.

[00:43:42] And to be completely frank, I'm in this season of my life where I am figuring out, you know,

[00:43:48] where alcohol fits into my life.

[00:43:50] You know, I think I was a very avid drinker.

[00:43:53] And I think part of why this topic is something I've been chewing on, again, it's like Scott

[00:43:58] and I are not experts, but I know that when I left the church, I felt like I had no, I had

[00:44:07] no guidelines to begin with anymore.

[00:44:09] I had, I was free falling in terms of like, what's my moral compass?

[00:44:12] Like, what do I think about things?

[00:44:14] Yeah.

[00:44:14] Valid to ask.

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:16] And, but I think that that is when, you know, my relationship with drinking really became

[00:44:24] very pronounced in terms of, and I can't even say like, oh, I drank because I left the church.

[00:44:30] That's not true at all.

[00:44:31] But because I had been repressed and controlled my whole life, I think I found a lot of freedom

[00:44:37] in, in what alcohol promised, you know?

[00:44:42] And you're a fun drunk.

[00:44:44] I am a fun drunk.

[00:44:46] I just become wittier.

[00:44:48] No, I'm a very loving drunk.

[00:44:50] I just start complimenting my friends.

[00:44:52] Like, I just want to be around people.

[00:44:54] If there's karaoke, like you won't be able to keep the mic from me.

[00:44:56] Like, you know, it's an enjoyable aspect of my life.

[00:45:01] However, I am, I think because of that, it went on maybe longer than it needed to.

[00:45:08] My, uh.

[00:45:10] The drinking?

[00:45:10] The drinking, the level of drinking that I was at.

[00:45:13] Yeah.

[00:45:13] And then also being a musician just kind of dictates a certain amount of drinking, you

[00:45:17] know?

[00:45:18] Yeah.

[00:45:18] It doesn't have to.

[00:45:20] That's what I'm also in the process of unlearning and try to restructure.

[00:45:24] But I think when you're gigging like six nights a week and people are buying you shots and you,

[00:45:29] and you're paid, literally paid by some bars just with drinks.

[00:45:32] Yeah.

[00:45:33] Here's your, here's your five drink tickets.

[00:45:34] Exactly.

[00:45:35] Yeah.

[00:45:36] Did you drink before you played?

[00:45:38] I didn't like to.

[00:45:39] I didn't either.

[00:45:39] I didn't, I didn't like drinking, like having a beer before the gig.

[00:45:43] I would, I would drink after.

[00:45:44] Yeah.

[00:45:45] After, after for sure.

[00:45:47] Yeah.

[00:45:48] After for sure.

[00:45:49] But I know some people that needed to drink before.

[00:45:51] Yeah.

[00:45:51] And that was a different relationship to alcohol.

[00:45:54] Yeah.

[00:45:55] But I guess it's like, I'm having this, I'm having like waves and waves of realizations

[00:46:01] with my relationship with alcohol because without the church's teachings, at least like my church's

[00:46:11] teaching that I grew up in of like alcohol being demonized and people who partake are like

[00:46:17] out of control and like they're, they, it'll lead them to, it's basically Sodom and Gomorrah

[00:46:22] if you have any alcohol.

[00:46:24] Like, you know, um, and so leaving that, I literally had no, I had no understanding really

[00:46:34] of where to place alcohol in terms of like good, bad or whatever, you know?

[00:46:40] Yeah.

[00:46:41] It was just behavior that felt like freedom to me, felt like it offered me something.

[00:46:48] And I think at this point in my life, I'm recognizing what it took from me also, which

[00:46:55] is, you know, which is so important, right?

[00:46:59] Because it's not a moralism thing.

[00:47:01] It is just like you were saying, it, it, it affects our brain chemistry.

[00:47:05] It has an actual like measurable effect on your physiology, your brain chemistry.

[00:47:13] And like the things that it took for me are like, let's say aspects of my health.

[00:47:17] Um, let's say certain relationships, certain friendships were, uh, formed or broken during

[00:47:24] drunken nights.

[00:47:26] Um, there are memories that I will never get back.

[00:47:29] Like, you know, these are very obvious things, but it's like, I, I really wish that I had

[00:47:36] this kind of dialogue in my life to help me.

[00:47:39] Not that I would have not drank, but I think it would have helped me not just like drink

[00:47:44] myself into oblivion for like 12 years straight every night, only exacerbated by the, the fucking

[00:47:51] pandemic, you know?

[00:47:52] Um, but I think it might've given me a little, I guess the image that's coming to mind is

[00:48:00] when you like you top rope or you lead climb.

[00:48:04] And, um, if you're doing it outdoors, you kind of like hook onto an anchor before you start

[00:48:13] climbing to the next thing so that if you fall from that height, you'll be caught by

[00:48:16] that anchor.

[00:48:16] I wish I had more something like that in my life.

[00:48:20] Like, like just I'm, even if I fuck up, it's not about moralism, but it's, it is about

[00:48:27] having some sort of structure of nuance of communication of consequences without moralism.

[00:48:36] Yeah.

[00:48:36] Yeah.

[00:48:37] And I think that's the heart of what we're talking about is it's the moralism and the

[00:48:41] attachment of all this quote unquote theology, fear tactics of letting demons in your soul

[00:48:48] hanging in the balance of these decisions we make.

[00:48:52] And shame.

[00:48:53] Shame.

[00:48:53] Of being unworthy of, you know.

[00:48:56] Yeah.

[00:48:56] It, it robs you of that opportunity to have that conversation with yourself.

[00:49:00] Yeah.

[00:49:00] To ask these questions, to find nuance.

[00:49:04] Yeah.

[00:49:04] Um, find what works for you.

[00:49:06] It just throws you to extreme.

[00:49:07] Yeah.

[00:49:08] Yeah.

[00:49:08] And in the worst case scenarios with either with, with sex and porn or, or alcohol, it

[00:49:14] drives your behavior underground.

[00:49:15] Yeah.

[00:49:16] So you're now you're outside of community.

[00:49:19] You're outside of relationships sometimes.

[00:49:21] Yeah.

[00:49:21] Cause the thing I mentioned the Bible studies, uh, if there were like a couple in the Bible

[00:49:27] study, they might, it might, it was often the wife saying, we have a prayer request.

[00:49:32] Oh.

[00:49:33] You know, my husband is struggling and has, and has fallen.

[00:49:38] Oh.

[00:49:38] And they, you know, they saw something on his laptop or, you know, it's, it's like, and

[00:49:43] then the wife feels betrayed.

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:45] And, and cheated on.

[00:49:47] And, um, and this gets to another whole nother thing about sex and marriage and expectations.

[00:49:55] Yes.

[00:49:56] Uh, disappointments and disillusionments, but.

[00:49:59] And lack of communication.

[00:50:00] Lack of communication because it's not okay to talk about even in married couples.

[00:50:06] Yeah.

[00:50:06] I feel like I've cheated.

[00:50:09] I've had women cheat on their husbands with me and haven't even had a physical interaction.

[00:50:15] It's purely based on, they can't talk to their husbands about sex.

[00:50:20] And they talk to you.

[00:50:21] So they come to me and Jerry.

[00:50:22] I see.

[00:50:22] Or one of us individually.

[00:50:24] And then I, have you talked to so-and-so, your husband about this?

[00:50:27] And like, oh, he doesn't talk about this.

[00:50:29] Like, ugh.

[00:50:30] Yeah.

[00:50:31] Then I don't know.

[00:50:32] I don't feel comfortable talking about it because now we're doing something outside of

[00:50:36] their, the bounds of, I don't care.

[00:50:39] Yeah.

[00:50:39] But.

[00:50:40] But you know, you know the structure within the church.

[00:50:43] That they are following.

[00:50:44] Trying to follow.

[00:50:45] Yeah.

[00:50:46] So you're judging them by their rubric.

[00:50:47] By their rules.

[00:50:48] Yeah.

[00:50:48] Exactly.

[00:50:49] Yeah.

[00:50:49] I feel like they're cheating.

[00:50:51] Yeah.

[00:50:52] In a sense.

[00:50:52] Emotionally.

[00:50:54] Psychologically.

[00:50:55] Yeah.

[00:50:56] And it doesn't have to be that way.

[00:50:58] No.

[00:50:58] But because of purity culture, it's such a taboo topic that even your closest relationship,

[00:51:03] your most intimate bond with another human, you can't talk about what you like.

[00:51:09] No.

[00:51:09] Or what you desire.

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:10] Or what turns you on.

[00:51:11] And so husband being the visual one, I don't even know if I believe that.

[00:51:16] Yeah.

[00:51:16] Maybe it's conditioned.

[00:51:18] For sure.

[00:51:19] Goes on his computer and looks up some, you know, funky things.

[00:51:23] Yeah.

[00:51:23] Or probably even fucking pretty vanilla shit.

[00:51:26] Yeah.

[00:51:27] Honestly.

[00:51:27] Either way.

[00:51:28] You know, if it's kink or BDSM or just vanilla, it's something that he feels.

[00:51:34] Is forbidden.

[00:51:35] Is forbidden, but he's into.

[00:51:37] Yeah.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:38] Yeah.

[00:51:39] And the forbidden aspect of it might only fuel his desire.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:44] It's just this self-propagating storm of problems that develop.

[00:51:50] Whereas.

[00:51:50] Because it's going against human nature.

[00:51:53] Yeah.

[00:51:53] That's like really the crux of it, right?

[00:51:55] Yeah.

[00:51:56] It's.

[00:51:56] And Christianity in general.

[00:51:58] Yeah.

[00:51:58] Is telling you.

[00:51:59] Modern.

[00:52:00] Yeah.

[00:52:00] Die to yourself.

[00:52:01] Right.

[00:52:02] Right.

[00:52:02] Yeah.

[00:52:02] You can't trust your own instincts and your own desires.

[00:52:05] No.

[00:52:05] You only can follow, you know, whatever you think the Bible says.

[00:52:08] Yeah.

[00:52:09] And it doesn't even say it usually, but.

[00:52:11] It feels like it should.

[00:52:12] Yeah.

[00:52:13] And that's what I mentioned that Jerry and I make each other make other couples fight.

[00:52:17] Like if we if we if we say we saw something that was sexy.

[00:52:21] Yeah.

[00:52:22] Oof.

[00:52:23] You know.

[00:52:24] Yeah.

[00:52:24] A woman was pretty or, you know.

[00:52:26] Right.

[00:52:26] Or it was a scene in a movie.

[00:52:28] Yeah.

[00:52:28] Or if we even joke about porn.

[00:52:30] Oof.

[00:52:30] That is not.

[00:52:31] We learned quickly not to bring anything like that up.

[00:52:35] Yeah.

[00:52:37] We would get judged and often the other couple starts fighting.

[00:52:41] Because if you fall on a different place on that, that's like pretty damning.

[00:52:45] So.

[00:52:45] Yeah.

[00:52:46] They probably left it unspoken.

[00:52:47] But I did have this kind of debate with a friend of mine who's still in the church.

[00:52:52] Um.

[00:52:54] And kind of like, you know, my church background, like I mentioned last time, it had like elements

[00:52:58] of magical realism.

[00:53:00] That's like the best way I can use to describe it.

[00:53:02] That's a lovely way to say it too.

[00:53:03] Yeah.

[00:53:04] Um.

[00:53:05] Covers a lot of ills.

[00:53:06] But I think that there was this kind of we were talking about.

[00:53:11] I was like, you know, what do you think of what do you think you're going to do in

[00:53:14] the next season?

[00:53:15] You know, what are your plans?

[00:53:17] And this person was just like, I'm waiting for God to lead me.

[00:53:20] I'm waiting for God to show you to show me the way.

[00:53:23] I'm praying on.

[00:53:24] And of course, we've all heard this language.

[00:53:26] Oh, yeah.

[00:53:27] You know what?

[00:53:28] I tried to just like because I was like, I'm not trying to be here to preach my shit

[00:53:32] either, because if I would be uncomfortable with this person like preaching at me, like

[00:53:36] I'm not going to do the same thing.

[00:53:37] But I was like, I would just respectfully say that I think in my understanding of God and

[00:53:42] it's not like I'm a heathen who's devoid of any relationship with some larger being,

[00:53:49] you know?

[00:53:49] Sure.

[00:53:49] But it's just like, I think that you also get to have a say.

[00:53:53] Like if this is a God who loves you, who, you know, created you, who understands your

[00:54:00] deepest thoughts, then I believe you can be in dialogue with this greater being if he

[00:54:06] or she or they in fact exist.

[00:54:10] I was like, I don't know that I would want to follow a God that was so like such a dictator

[00:54:15] that I had no say in my life.

[00:54:18] And I'm like, I think that your voice also deserves to count here, you know?

[00:54:24] Your voice, your intuitions.

[00:54:25] Yeah.

[00:54:26] And I was like, if you're so aligned with God, you know, then I believe that your thoughts

[00:54:32] and your intuition, yeah, your thoughts and your intuitions, they can also help guide that

[00:54:37] because then you're, you know what I mean?

[00:54:39] I'm like, I was like, I get it when you're younger.

[00:54:43] It's one in the same then.

[00:54:44] Yeah.

[00:54:44] If you're in alignment with God.

[00:54:45] Right.

[00:54:46] Your instincts.

[00:54:48] Are aligned with God.

[00:54:49] So that's God telling you what to do.

[00:54:52] Yeah.

[00:54:52] Or what to pursue.

[00:54:53] Totally.

[00:54:54] And I was like, I get it when you're a younger Christian or younger person, like that relationship

[00:54:58] hasn't fully developed yet.

[00:54:59] But I'm like, you're in your 30s.

[00:55:01] It's like, it's a different time.

[00:55:03] I think that your relationship with God also can evolve.

[00:55:07] Yeah.

[00:55:07] I mean, is this person expecting like the heavens to open up and a big booming voice to come

[00:55:11] down and tell them like, okay, A, you're going to do this and B, you're going to do

[00:55:15] this and don't do this.

[00:55:17] And I think that's what's so frustrating.

[00:55:21] This is a person who's very close to me.

[00:55:22] So I love them very much.

[00:55:27] And I find it, it's, it becomes superstition.

[00:55:32] It becomes superstitious.

[00:55:33] Yeah.

[00:55:34] Because, because I don't actually think that they're, they don't believe that a voice is

[00:55:42] actually going to come down from heaven.

[00:55:43] But they stay in a very, let's call it a prayerful state, lying in wait, wherein, you know, personal

[00:55:53] autonomy or impetus is completely external.

[00:55:55] And therefore, any external input gets prayed about and considered and has led this person

[00:56:04] down paths in which they have had the wool pulled over their eyes and like fall into scams

[00:56:09] and things like that, you know?

[00:56:11] And so, but it's, everything can be justified under Jesus, you know?

[00:56:19] And so it can be really frustrating.

[00:56:21] And so this was kind of my, and again, they're an adult.

[00:56:26] I love them very much.

[00:56:27] They're allowed to make their decisions.

[00:56:29] They have to live with their life.

[00:56:30] I'm not living their life.

[00:56:31] So it's fine.

[00:56:32] But this is a person who, let's say, I'm, I've been a bit of a mentor to at times.

[00:56:39] So this is like why I'm speaking in the way that I am to them.

[00:56:43] And you're invested in this person's well-being.

[00:56:45] Very.

[00:56:46] Yeah.

[00:56:46] And so, and knowing the background that, of the church that I grew up in, it just kind

[00:56:54] of, there is that, yeah, superstition.

[00:56:57] It really is superstitious if you really dig down into it.

[00:57:01] Yeah.

[00:57:01] I mean, you remember this, right?

[00:57:02] I think we were superstitious.

[00:57:04] Like we would look for signs.

[00:57:05] Yes.

[00:57:06] Yeah.

[00:57:06] I remember a sermon distinctly when I was a kid, but it was in big church.

[00:57:11] And the pastor was talking about the burning bush and how important it was that Moses turned

[00:57:22] and went to the burning, was curious and was open to something big.

[00:57:29] Yeah.

[00:57:29] Out of the ordinary.

[00:57:30] Supernatural.

[00:57:31] Yeah.

[00:57:32] And so that's what, that's how Christians should live.

[00:57:34] Yeah.

[00:57:34] Like open to, to God's guidance.

[00:57:38] If only we could see a fucking burning bush talking to us, it would be really easy.

[00:57:43] Yeah.

[00:57:44] But we don't get, I don't know.

[00:57:46] I've never seen anything supernatural like that with a voice coming out of it.

[00:57:50] No.

[00:57:50] And then it means that like, you know, my, my mom, I'll use her as an example.

[00:57:55] She will use like, well, I found a parking spot very quickly when I pulled into the parking

[00:58:00] lot.

[00:58:00] So God is, yeah, God is intoning to me that the, the decision I was mulling over, he's,

[00:58:09] you know what I mean?

[00:58:10] He's offering an affirmative answer.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:12] And that's super, that's totally superstitious, right?

[00:58:15] Like that's a sign that, but that she, it's not even a burning bush situation.

[00:58:19] It's her setting a bush on fire retroactively in her imagination.

[00:58:25] Yeah.

[00:58:26] I don't know.

[00:58:26] Imagination sounds harsh in this context.

[00:58:28] Well.

[00:58:29] In her mind's eye.

[00:58:30] In her mind's eye.

[00:58:31] Yeah.

[00:58:31] Yeah.

[00:58:31] That bush is saying here is a parking space for you, my faithful servant.

[00:58:35] Yeah.

[00:58:35] Great.

[00:58:36] Oh, that must be a burning bush.

[00:58:37] Yeah.

[00:58:38] Did it look like a burning bush?

[00:58:39] No.

[00:58:40] Was it on fire?

[00:58:41] No.

[00:58:41] We have to, we have to read the signs as they're given.

[00:58:44] Yeah.

[00:58:44] It's not always going to be a burning bush.

[00:58:46] Yeah.

[00:58:46] But you know what I'm saying?

[00:58:47] If, you know, with my family, it's, it can be difficult to, it can be difficult to communicate

[00:58:57] that to them human to human.

[00:58:59] And, um, yeah, I think everything is couched in, oh, this was a sign from God.

[00:59:07] Oh, we got a hotel room that faces this.

[00:59:09] That's a sign from God.

[00:59:10] Yeah.

[00:59:10] Like, you know, it's constant.

[00:59:12] It's never ending.

[00:59:13] And conversely, going back to our talk of addictions.

[00:59:17] Yeah.

[00:59:17] If you drink too much.

[00:59:19] Yeah.

[00:59:19] Or if you see a nipple and lust.

[00:59:23] Or a penis.

[00:59:25] Yeah.

[00:59:26] Um, or whatever turns you on.

[00:59:28] Um, it's a test.

[00:59:31] Mm-hmm.

[00:59:31] Right?

[00:59:32] It's, everything is in context of you being a good and faithful Christian.

[00:59:37] Yeah.

[00:59:38] Yeah.

[00:59:38] Or not.

[00:59:39] Instead of just something naturally happening.

[00:59:43] You know, we are a bundle of nerves and cells.

[00:59:47] Yeah.

[00:59:47] Things that just respond to things.

[00:59:49] We're animals.

[00:59:50] Yeah.

[00:59:51] And some of it's socialized.

[00:59:52] A lot of it is.

[00:59:54] Um.

[00:59:54] Yeah.

[00:59:54] Yeah.

[00:59:55] And that's fair.

[00:59:55] We can talk about that in that context.

[00:59:57] You know, is seeing a naked person automatically a turn on?

[01:00:02] Maybe.

[01:00:03] You know, depending on the context.

[01:00:05] Yeah.

[01:00:05] Yeah.

[01:00:06] See, we're already diverting from the Christian teaching of this very black and white thing

[01:00:12] that makes it kind of a fetish to see a nipple or a penis or whatever.

[01:00:16] Yeah.

[01:00:17] An elbow.

[01:00:17] Whatever turns you on.

[01:00:19] Right.

[01:00:20] Ear lobes.

[01:00:21] Well, because in Genesis with Adam and Eve, it's, you know, after they partook from the

[01:00:26] tree of knowledge, good and evil, they felt shame.

[01:00:29] Yeah.

[01:00:30] Yeah.

[01:00:31] It doesn't say they got horny.

[01:00:32] No.

[01:00:32] No.

[01:00:32] They just were aware of their own nakedness and they felt ashamed.

[01:00:36] Yeah.

[01:00:37] I always wondered, like, they weren't aware that they were naked.

[01:00:43] Right.

[01:00:44] That's just a fact, you know.

[01:00:46] Yeah.

[01:00:46] Hey.

[01:00:47] But if it's allegorical, if it's allegorical, then maybe we can consider it differently.

[01:00:54] If it's mythological, then we can consider it differently.

[01:00:57] But.

[01:00:57] If it's history.

[01:00:58] If it's history.

[01:00:59] Yeah.

[01:00:59] Yeah.

[01:01:00] It's a little bit, a little bit harder of a needle to really thread.

[01:01:05] Logically.

[01:01:06] Yeah.

[01:01:06] Yeah.

[01:01:06] And a lot of like Jewish folks see it as metaphor.

[01:01:11] Allegory.

[01:01:12] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:12] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:13] The Pentateuch is poetry.

[01:01:16] You know, it wasn't meant to be science.

[01:01:18] Yeah.

[01:01:19] And politics.

[01:01:20] Right.

[01:01:20] And psychology.

[01:01:22] You know, and all these things.

[01:01:24] Yeah.

[01:01:24] That Christians attribute to it.

[01:01:26] Mm-hmm.

[01:01:27] Um.

[01:01:28] Interesting.

[01:01:29] Because, yeah, there's some holes in, you know, there's some angels fucking humans to populate

[01:01:33] the earth or something.

[01:01:34] Yeah.

[01:01:35] Just casual.

[01:01:36] Just.

[01:01:37] Yeah.

[01:01:38] My friend Tori fantasies about fucking angels because.

[01:01:43] Yeah.

[01:01:44] I mean.

[01:01:44] That's gotta be a good experience.

[01:01:46] Touched by an angel was.

[01:01:47] You know, some people's sexual awakening.

[01:01:50] That was the.

[01:01:52] What CBS show?

[01:01:53] Michael Landon?

[01:01:54] I think so.

[01:01:56] Tisa Ray.

[01:01:57] What was her name?

[01:01:58] Tisa Ray?

[01:01:59] Oh, right.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:01] Touched by an angel could be like a, like a porn series now.

[01:02:05] Totally.

[01:02:07] We could probably make some money.

[01:02:08] Yeah.

[01:02:08] Doing this.

[01:02:09] Hmm.

[01:02:09] We could, we could turn this whole quote unquote addiction thing on his head.

[01:02:13] Or maybe.

[01:02:14] Yeah.

[01:02:14] Touched by an angle and it's just like people with a protractor kink.

[01:02:18] Ooh.

[01:02:19] Yeah.

[01:02:21] Um.

[01:02:22] But no, this was very.

[01:02:24] I'm glad we dove into this because.

[01:02:27] I feel that this is an oft thought about aspect of purity culture, but I have not personally

[01:02:36] shared my experience with it.

[01:02:38] Yeah.

[01:02:38] Yeah.

[01:02:39] And we, we probably just scratched the surface really.

[01:02:42] Um.

[01:02:43] So in, in, in content warning, uh, Erica Smith is a sex educator in this past year and I'll

[01:02:50] try and find the clip, but she blew everyone's minds.

[01:02:53] Even all of us who, who don't necessarily have a problem with porn.

[01:02:57] She said, you know, the Christians are telling you that it's an addiction.

[01:03:01] It changes your brain chemistry.

[01:03:04] You know, every minute you watch of, you know, something sexually explicit.

[01:03:07] She's like, it doesn't.

[01:03:08] Yeah.

[01:03:09] I mean, I think anything changes your brain chemistry.

[01:03:12] Sure.

[01:03:12] A song, music, a meal, you know, uh, hanging out with a friend.

[01:03:16] Yeah.

[01:03:16] Yeah.

[01:03:17] It's, but it's not like it alters it the same way like alcohol does.

[01:03:20] Like structurally.

[01:03:21] Or drugs.

[01:03:22] Yeah.

[01:03:22] Yeah.

[01:03:23] And the idea that there's sex addiction, porn addiction is not a real thing.

[01:03:29] Right.

[01:03:29] Kind of like virginity.

[01:03:30] Yeah.

[01:03:31] These are all socialized constructs that we.

[01:03:33] Yeah.

[01:03:34] We use.

[01:03:34] And even like outside the church, there's always some actor who's going to therapy for sex

[01:03:39] addiction and really they just, just really into sex.

[01:03:43] Yeah.

[01:03:43] And maybe impulse addiction, you know, or, or impulsivity is an issue.

[01:03:46] Lack of impulse control.

[01:03:47] Is an issue.

[01:03:48] Yeah.

[01:03:49] Yeah.

[01:03:49] But it's not about the sex or it's not about the activity.

[01:03:52] It's more about the controlling of impulses.

[01:03:54] Right.

[01:03:55] That's a thing.

[01:03:55] That's a thing.

[01:03:56] Yeah.

[01:04:02] Yeah.

[01:04:03] Overly Christianized.

[01:04:05] I feel like it could be an anxiety response.

[01:04:08] Like you're anxious about going to hell.

[01:04:11] And, you know, for me, when I anxiety spiral, like I can get obsessive about certain things,

[01:04:18] you know, and I think whatever is the object of your desire or the object that you're trying

[01:04:23] not to desire, I think if you iterate on that with an anxious mind concerned about guilt and shame,

[01:04:30] then that can also read as what can appear to be addictive behavior.

[01:04:35] Yeah.

[01:04:37] That's deep.

[01:04:40] Okay.

[01:04:41] Scott here.

[01:04:42] Kind of breaking in chapel probation style.

[01:04:47] If you're enjoying this conversation and, and I hope you are, I hope you also can

[01:04:53] consider tuning in to something called content warning, which is hopefully now a yearly gathering

[01:04:59] of ex evangelical types who have been harmed by purity culture and are trying to find a

[01:05:07] sex positive way out.

[01:05:10] So I mentioned Erica Smith and she is one of the collaborators, collaborators with me and

[01:05:18] a bunch of people.

[01:05:19] And so here is a clip from February, February, 2024, the content warning event on a panel about

[01:05:27] sex work and pornography.

[01:05:30] Yeah, we went head on into it.

[01:05:32] And on this panel, I think it's moderated by Cortland coffee.

[01:05:36] You'll hear Tori Williams Douglas.

[01:05:39] You'll hear transvangelical and wild violet in addition to Erica Smith.

[01:05:44] And this little clip here, I think is a great example of the kinds of discussions we have

[01:05:50] at content warning.

[01:05:52] So I hope you'll check it out and I hope you enjoy this quick clip before I bring back me

[01:05:57] and Prisca to finish out the episode with some weird things.

[01:06:01] Yeah.

[01:06:02] I think that as we're having this conversation, yeah, there's so much disinformation and misinformation

[01:06:09] and obviously like it's about control.

[01:06:12] It's about shame.

[01:06:13] It's about power over people's bodies.

[01:06:16] And I think that that is why it's like, oh, you can have agency in some areas.

[01:06:21] You can have free will.

[01:06:22] But in these areas, you don't get to have that.

[01:06:24] Right.

[01:06:25] And I would love to maybe just talk about for each of you like a pet peeve around.

[01:06:31] I think Erica was kind of going into this, a pet peeve around like or something that you

[01:06:35] want to debunk around sex work and porn because we're all given these narratives.

[01:06:41] Like you said, Erica, it doesn't matter if you're in church or not.

[01:06:44] We're being fed all of this shit.

[01:06:45] Most of it does come from religious people who are trying to, again, like gain control

[01:06:51] over people's bodies and they're just using every tool that's available, you know, be

[01:06:55] it porn, sex work, abortion, your gender expression, like they want to control your body.

[01:07:02] Right.

[01:07:02] And so I would love for each of you to talk about debunk something that like really stands

[01:07:08] out to you as a narrative that exists in culture or in the church that is just wrong.

[01:07:15] Porn doesn't change your brain.

[01:07:17] Oh my God.

[01:07:19] Thank you.

[01:07:19] Brain studies, brain scans.

[01:07:20] There are neuroscience researchers that study the effects of sexualized content on your brain.

[01:07:26] These are not Christian people.

[01:07:29] They are scientists.

[01:07:31] And they have found that the way that your brain reacts to sexualized images is very

[01:07:37] different than the way your brain reacts to substances like alcohol and things that actually

[01:07:42] are addictive.

[01:07:43] And so when people say porn changes your brain, you're literally addicted to porn.

[01:07:48] There is no evidence in, we have an understanding of addiction.

[01:07:52] That's like very like, like a layman's understanding of addiction, but pornography does not function

[01:07:58] in people's brains the way that addictive substances do.

[01:08:02] And the researchers that put this information out have been threatened, have been doxxed, have

[01:08:07] had to leave the country because that is how much people don't want to fucking believe that.

[01:08:12] Yeah.

[01:08:13] I think I, can I just want to jump in really quickly with the neuroscience piece?

[01:08:15] Cause I'm a nerd.

[01:08:16] Um, yeah.

[01:08:18] So you hear a lot of the time that it's like pornography functions the same way in your brain

[01:08:22] as cocaine, as like sugar, as social media.

[01:08:26] It's like, it's all using like the same pathways and like, you've got the same neurons lighting

[01:08:30] up when you're using these different things.

[01:08:31] And so, you know, sugar is the same as meth somehow magic, I guess.

[01:08:36] And that is true.

[01:08:38] Yeah, it is.

[01:08:39] It's just, that's science.

[01:08:40] Have you not had rock candy?

[01:08:42] That's, that's the crystals.

[01:08:44] I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm still, you know what you guys?

[01:08:46] Oh my God.

[01:08:47] Um, there are a limited number.

[01:08:52] I know that you've got a bajillion neurons, right?

[01:08:54] But there are actually a limited number of pathways in your brain.

[01:08:56] You can't have a unique one for every single type of experience that exists in the world

[01:09:01] or every single substance.

[01:09:03] So yes, sometimes certain experiences will light up the same places in your brain.

[01:09:09] That is not inherently a bad thing.

[01:09:11] It's not like hard drugs where it could potentially, I'm not saying hard drugs are inherently even

[01:09:16] bad or evil.

[01:09:16] I'm not making a moral assessment, but like in excess hard drugs can kind of like cement

[01:09:22] some of those pathways, but like porn cannot do that, right?

[01:09:26] Like sex can't actually like cement neural pathways in your brain the way that certain

[01:09:31] chemicals can't.

[01:09:32] Just wanted to throw that out there.

[01:09:33] And super quick, what has been shown to drive compulsive use of pornography is shame.

[01:09:40] So if you're raised with sexual shame, you're more likely to report yourself as an addict

[01:09:45] or compulsive user than somebody who was raised to just be like, yeah, porn's a thing.

[01:09:49] Yeah, it exists.

[01:09:50] Yeah.

[01:09:51] But I want, I know that we need to get through this question for everybody.

[01:09:55] I do want to add, like, do we know where the evangelical, like, understanding that pornography

[01:10:02] is like addicting and it like continuously makes us works?

[01:10:06] Like that was a study done by Dr. James Dobson.

[01:10:12] Focus on the family.

[01:10:13] Always check your sources.

[01:10:14] Trigger warning.

[01:10:15] Trigger warning.

[01:10:16] Sorry.

[01:10:16] Before we say James Dobson's name around here.

[01:10:19] Do you know how they researched it?

[01:10:22] Oh no.

[01:10:22] They asked somebody a question?

[01:10:24] No.

[01:10:25] On the street?

[01:10:26] They took a group of men from their organization, watched pornography and self-reported to include-

[01:10:35] As one does.

[01:10:36] To include Dr. Dobson.

[01:10:39] So when he, whenever he says-

[01:10:41] Dr. Dobson went to his whole staff and said-

[01:10:44] For research purposes.

[01:10:45] Hey guys.

[01:10:46] Thanks for what?

[01:10:46] You know what we're going to add into your contract right now?

[01:10:50] Yeah.

[01:10:51] What kind of clause did it-

[01:10:52] That's a lawsuit.

[01:10:53] I'm sorry.

[01:10:54] Go ahead.

[01:10:54] I mean, so, so this is where, this is where the evangelical understanding of pornography comes

[01:11:01] from.

[01:11:01] It is focused on the family saying, hey, we're all going to watch porn and then we're going

[01:11:05] to tell each other how bad it is.

[01:11:07] That is so fucking weird.

[01:11:09] And by the way-

[01:11:09] You'll never guess our plan.

[01:11:11] It's so tevious.

[01:11:12] So bad.

[01:11:12] So bad.

[01:11:13] Brilliant.

[01:11:13] And by the way, it has to be this bad.

[01:11:17] And so like, that's where Dobson came up with this idea of like, he's seen the worst

[01:11:22] of the worst of like children pornography.

[01:11:24] What?

[01:11:25] He went looking for it.

[01:11:26] That is the only way he got there because he was researching this shit.

[01:11:32] Researching.

[01:11:33] Like for academic purposes, right?

[01:11:39] What a such fucking asshole.

[01:11:42] Fucking cunt, bitch, motherfucker.

[01:11:47] That's going to be on the back of the t-shirts next year.

[01:11:54] And that wraps up the panel.

[01:11:57] The bunny is a temple.

[01:12:00] Question?

[01:12:01] Yeah.

[01:12:02] Clown porn.

[01:12:03] Clown porn.

[01:12:05] How many clowns can they fit?

[01:12:08] What's your take?

[01:12:09] Not my thing personally, but I can respect.

[01:12:15] I mean, I get the desire for like, ooh, a jump scare moment.

[01:12:20] I get the desire for something that, yeah, scared you in your childhood that maybe you're

[01:12:25] trying to reclaim or like was scary but sexy.

[01:12:29] I get, you know, even fitting a lot of clowns into a car.

[01:12:32] That's like, you know, that's kind of hot.

[01:12:34] Getting gang banged by like a mini Cooper full of clowns.

[01:12:38] Like I get it.

[01:12:39] It's just not, it wouldn't necessarily get me off.

[01:12:42] Yeah.

[01:12:43] How about you?

[01:12:43] Yeah.

[01:12:44] Same.

[01:12:44] So in the 90s, when Jerry and I first married, we were living in married student housing at

[01:12:50] UC San Francisco.

[01:12:51] Cozy.

[01:12:52] And we splurged and we got HBO.

[01:12:56] Ooh.

[01:12:57] And HBO had this long running docu series called Real Sex.

[01:13:02] Yeah.

[01:13:02] Oh, yeah.

[01:13:03] Yeah.

[01:13:04] It seems probably really dated now, but we watched some really bizarre, interesting things.

[01:13:09] Wow.

[01:13:09] About sex and sexuality, things that people were into in the 90s.

[01:13:13] Okay.

[01:13:13] And the clown one really struck us because we were trying not to laugh.

[01:13:18] Yeah.

[01:13:18] Because people are serious.

[01:13:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:13:21] They're not parodying clowns.

[01:13:24] No.

[01:13:25] They're fully committed to the clown aesthetic.

[01:13:27] Yeah.

[01:13:28] Are we talking like Ringling Brothers?

[01:13:30] Are we talking like, you know.

[01:13:31] Yeah, full makeup.

[01:13:32] Okay.

[01:13:32] Noses, honky horns.

[01:13:34] Ooh.

[01:13:35] Okay.

[01:13:36] And, you know, wigs.

[01:13:37] Like Pennywise?

[01:13:38] Well, not as scary.

[01:13:40] Okay.

[01:13:40] But.

[01:13:41] But is that elaborate?

[01:13:42] Yeah, that elaborate.

[01:13:44] Yeah.

[01:13:44] And so this is their kink and they get some really turned on and they're laughing and making

[01:13:48] weird noises and throwing pies at each other.

[01:13:51] Shit.

[01:13:51] And fucking.

[01:13:52] Yeah.

[01:13:52] All while this is going on.

[01:13:54] And we realized we don't even know.

[01:13:57] We don't know.

[01:13:58] About what turns people on.

[01:13:59] Yeah.

[01:14:00] Because I hear that and I'm like, I wish I could be that uninhibited.

[01:14:04] Yeah.

[01:14:04] You know?

[01:14:05] Where you're like that sold to the moment where you can just like let yourself fully be.

[01:14:10] But just saying that runs so contrary to everything we were taught growing up, right?

[01:14:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:14:17] One hundred percent.

[01:14:18] Things like kink.

[01:14:19] Pony play.

[01:14:21] These people like are fully committed to dressing up like as a pony.

[01:14:25] Oh, like furries?

[01:14:26] Well, yeah.

[01:14:27] Oh, the My Pony.

[01:14:28] The My Little Pony craze, right?

[01:14:30] Yeah, that's an offshoot of it.

[01:14:31] Like in the 90s, they were literally like a woman would like have long hair and the man

[01:14:36] would like comb it.

[01:14:39] Oh.

[01:14:39] Place shoes on her feet.

[01:14:42] Put a bag of oats in her mouth.

[01:14:44] Damn.

[01:14:46] And this is all foreplay.

[01:14:48] And then they would fuck.

[01:14:51] Wow.

[01:14:51] And this was their thing.

[01:14:53] That's cool.

[01:14:54] Yeah.

[01:14:54] No, fascinating.

[01:14:56] A lot of work.

[01:14:57] Yeah.

[01:14:57] My thought was that look that saddle looks really expensive.

[01:15:01] Right.

[01:15:02] If it's real leather.

[01:15:03] Yeah.

[01:15:04] And this saddle built for a human.

[01:15:07] Because that's maybe it'll fit on those little miniature.

[01:15:09] Yeah.

[01:15:10] I was going to say a little Sebastian.

[01:15:11] OK.

[01:15:12] Yeah.

[01:15:12] But our thought was like, OK, we can afford this even if we wanted to do.

[01:15:15] That's like real leather.

[01:15:17] Are you kidding me?

[01:15:18] Yeah.

[01:15:18] Crops.

[01:15:20] Yeah.

[01:15:21] Anyway.

[01:15:21] See, the crops.

[01:15:23] That seems kind of fun.

[01:15:24] Sure.

[01:15:25] But like the.

[01:15:26] OK.

[01:15:27] No, it's.

[01:15:28] No, it's really.

[01:15:29] It's really interesting.

[01:15:30] It's really interesting.

[01:15:31] Yeah.

[01:15:31] But the fact that we can say this is interesting without judgment.

[01:15:34] Yeah.

[01:15:35] Without feeling.

[01:15:36] Oh, that's weird.

[01:15:37] We shouldn't talk about that.

[01:15:39] Yeah.

[01:15:39] That's that's that's deviant.

[01:15:42] Yeah.

[01:15:42] Or here, you know, here's one that.

[01:15:45] I feel like a phrase that a lot of like, you know, my ex church friends use like, oh, that

[01:15:51] like scares me.

[01:15:53] Oh, like.

[01:15:54] Oh, it's.

[01:15:55] I know it's not wrong, but like.

[01:15:56] Yeah.

[01:15:56] But like it scares me.

[01:15:57] It makes me like uncomfortable.

[01:15:59] And I'm like, huh.

[01:16:00] I think that like kind of comes from the same place.

[01:16:02] But, you know.

[01:16:03] Like it.

[01:16:03] Yeah.

[01:16:04] Although I.

[01:16:05] If you're naturally afraid of clowns, I get that.

[01:16:08] Oh, sure.

[01:16:08] That's not going to be fun for you.

[01:16:10] Sure.

[01:16:10] Going to be terrifying.

[01:16:11] Yeah.

[01:16:12] But just in terms of like, I feel that when they say that.

[01:16:17] It re.

[01:16:18] They're scratching on the surface of a thing that would reenergize their guilt and their

[01:16:22] shame.

[01:16:22] You know.

[01:16:23] Yeah.

[01:16:24] Yeah.

[01:16:24] It's like a conditioned response.

[01:16:26] Yeah.

[01:16:26] Even if they don't have guilt and shame, it feels like they're trying to get there.

[01:16:31] Yeah.

[01:16:32] Yeah.

[01:16:33] Totally.

[01:16:35] Which leads to all the problems that we started this episode with.

[01:16:39] Are we back at the beginning?

[01:16:40] It is an MC Esher truck.

[01:16:42] Well, we started very dark with a murder.

[01:16:45] Yeah.

[01:16:46] A terrible response.

[01:16:49] Directly tied to what we're talking about.

[01:16:51] Born in the fires of purity culture.

[01:16:53] Yeah.

[01:16:53] Yeah.

[01:16:53] And that's obviously the most extreme case kind of example.

[01:16:58] But short of murder.

[01:17:00] And it's it definitely has a negative effect.

[01:17:03] On our lives.

[01:17:04] Yeah.

[01:17:05] On people's lives.

[01:17:05] For sure.

[01:17:06] And keeps people from bonding, connecting.

[01:17:09] Keeps people from understanding their true selves.

[01:17:11] Yes.

[01:17:11] And what makes them tick.

[01:17:13] Yeah.

[01:17:14] Because asking what you like and what turns you on or what you're into is a non-starter in church.

[01:17:21] And that's I think that's what we're saying.

[01:17:23] Totally.

[01:17:24] It's.

[01:17:25] Yeah.

[01:17:26] It's denying the the not a deeper knowledge of your body and yourself.

[01:17:32] Yeah.

[01:17:32] It's ignoring every sign that your body is offering to you to indicate certain things.

[01:17:39] Yeah.

[01:17:40] You know.

[01:17:40] It's like if you're.

[01:17:42] If you're hungry, you're hungry for a reason.

[01:17:45] Yeah.

[01:17:46] You know.

[01:17:47] Yeah.

[01:17:48] It offers.

[01:17:49] It is a desire for sustenance of some kind.

[01:17:53] Ooh.

[01:17:53] And some people like exotic things like frog legs or.

[01:17:57] Yeah.

[01:17:57] Calf's brains or.

[01:17:59] Yeah.

[01:17:59] And some people will just want a Big Mac.

[01:18:01] Some people.

[01:18:01] Yeah.

[01:18:02] Macaroni and cheese.

[01:18:03] Like whatever it is.

[01:18:04] But like if you are denying yourselves.

[01:18:07] If you are denying.

[01:18:08] If you are denying the urging of your hunger pangs.

[01:18:13] Yeah.

[01:18:14] You'll get to a point where you starve yourself.

[01:18:16] Yeah.

[01:18:16] Or you binge.

[01:18:18] You know.

[01:18:19] Yeah.

[01:18:19] Which is essentially what we're talking about here.

[01:18:21] Is you're denying your body's desires.

[01:18:24] You're denying that the signals your body gives you of wants and desires.

[01:18:28] And I think that you know I still struggle with this where I don't always know what I want.

[01:18:36] Mm.

[01:18:36] Because I lived a such a controlled life within the church for so long.

[01:18:42] Yeah.

[01:18:42] That even though philosophically and you know cognitively I'm like ooh yeah I'm so so far from where I started.

[01:18:50] Yeah.

[01:18:50] That deadening of you know the attention to this the alarms going off in your body.

[01:18:59] Yeah.

[01:19:00] I'm I'm still relearning how to connect those.

[01:19:06] Connect those alarms to something that should be addressed and is healthy to address.

[01:19:14] Yeah.

[01:19:16] Instead of something to be like close it away lock it away.

[01:19:19] Yeah.

[01:19:20] You know.

[01:19:20] So we need to like turn off the alarms.

[01:19:23] Or just stop muffling it.

[01:19:25] Yeah.

[01:19:25] Not even turn it off.

[01:19:26] I feel like what we've done is like there's an alarm going off and we have been taught to put a pillow over it.

[01:19:31] Oh.

[01:19:31] Oh.

[01:19:32] An alarm like in a good sense.

[01:19:33] In a good sense.

[01:19:33] An indicator light.

[01:19:35] Indicator light.

[01:19:35] Yeah.

[01:19:36] There you go.

[01:19:36] Indicating.

[01:19:37] Indicator light.

[01:19:38] Got it.

[01:19:38] And we're just told to like just cover it.

[01:19:40] Don't look at it.

[01:19:40] Yeah.

[01:19:41] It's not there.

[01:19:42] Yeah.

[01:19:42] But it's.

[01:19:43] And it's it's a portal to demons into your heart.

[01:19:45] Exactly.

[01:19:46] Yeah.

[01:19:46] Yeah.

[01:19:47] And instead like there's a healthy way to address these indicator lights.

[01:19:52] And there are healthy conversations that can happen around these.

[01:19:55] Yeah.

[01:19:55] Why is this light turning on?

[01:19:56] Yeah.

[01:19:57] What does this mean?

[01:19:59] You know.

[01:19:59] Right.

[01:19:59] What in my life experience led me to have this response?

[01:20:03] Yeah.

[01:20:04] Fair.

[01:20:05] All valid discussions.

[01:20:06] Right.

[01:20:06] And by no means does having an indicator light mean that you're entitled to whatever.

[01:20:10] Right.

[01:20:10] You know.

[01:20:11] Thing at that moment.

[01:20:12] But it just means that.

[01:20:16] It's an indicator light that you can address.

[01:20:19] And it's healthy to address.

[01:20:21] And I feel like so many of us who've come up in purity culture.

[01:20:24] We are not addressing any.

[01:20:26] We grew up not addressing any of those indicator lights.

[01:20:28] In fact we were told not to.

[01:20:30] Yeah.

[01:20:30] Absolutely.

[01:20:33] Woo.

[01:20:33] Just another day in the horny chapel.

[01:20:36] Yeah.

[01:20:37] Tonight's movie night.

[01:20:38] We're going to watch some clown sex.

[01:20:41] Get some popcorn.

[01:20:42] Get some popcorn.

[01:20:43] We're showing it at the horny chapel.

[01:20:45] Yeah.

[01:20:46] We're going to put down the projector in front of the baptismal pool.

[01:20:49] It's B-Y-O-H.

[01:20:51] Bring your own horns.

[01:20:52] Ooh.

[01:20:52] And bring your own pies.

[01:20:54] Ooh.

[01:20:54] Yeah.

[01:20:55] Bring your own little nose.

[01:20:57] Nose.

[01:20:58] Yeah.

[01:20:58] Frafum.

[01:21:00] Frafum.

[01:21:02] Now everyone is picturing clowns having sex.

[01:21:05] Sorry.

[01:21:05] I mean what?

[01:21:07] Do they leave their pants on and just stick it out of a hole in there?

[01:21:12] Oh gosh.

[01:21:13] And like.

[01:21:14] I'm sure you could look this up.

[01:21:15] Now I'm curious because for some reason that lives in me and Jerry's heads.

[01:21:19] We often joke about clown sex.

[01:21:22] It's like all.

[01:21:22] This is from like 1995.

[01:21:24] It's all fun and games until like you show up to a hotel room and Jerry's like done fully

[01:21:29] up as a clown.

[01:21:31] Yeah.

[01:21:32] I don't know.

[01:21:34] Maybe.

[01:21:35] Never say never.

[01:21:36] Never say never.

[01:21:36] I feel like if it was Jerry.

[01:21:38] Yeah.

[01:21:39] Yeah.

[01:21:39] You already find her hot.

[01:21:41] Yeah.

[01:21:41] Yeah.

[01:21:42] Definitely.

[01:21:43] And yeah.

[01:21:43] Hmm.

[01:21:44] Clowns.

[01:21:44] Yeah.

[01:21:45] Not my thing.

[01:21:45] Yeah.

[01:21:46] So in answer to your question.

[01:21:47] I think there was a.

[01:21:48] They would strip enough clothes.

[01:21:51] Okay.

[01:21:51] Off.

[01:21:52] Okay.

[01:21:53] There was definitely boobs present.

[01:21:55] So like.

[01:21:56] Yeah.

[01:21:56] Does shoe size matter?

[01:21:59] Yeah.

[01:22:00] Huge shoes.

[01:22:01] Yeah.

[01:22:02] Massive shoes.

[01:22:03] Big oversized shoes.

[01:22:04] Yeah.

[01:22:05] Yeah.

[01:22:05] So no.

[01:22:06] Shoe size doesn't matter.

[01:22:07] Does not indicate.

[01:22:09] No correlation.

[01:22:10] No correlation.

[01:22:11] Oh shit.

[01:22:12] Yeah.

[01:22:13] Well there goes my theory.

[01:22:15] In clowns.

[01:22:16] Yeah.

[01:22:17] Well you know.

[01:22:19] Whatever your kink is.

[01:22:20] Like I hope you're enjoying that this week.

[01:22:21] Take a little self care moment.

[01:22:23] Like watch something.

[01:22:24] One of your favorites.

[01:22:25] You know.

[01:22:26] One that you have saved on a tab that nobody knows about.

[01:22:29] Give it a little watch.

[01:22:31] Yeah.

[01:22:32] Give yourself a little self care.

[01:22:33] And send it to us.

[01:22:34] Well.

[01:22:36] I mean you can.

[01:22:38] But you.

[01:22:38] Well.

[01:22:40] Yeah.

[01:22:40] What's the safest way.

[01:22:41] I don't know.

[01:22:41] For people to send that.

[01:22:43] Yeah.

[01:22:43] I am curious though.

[01:22:45] Like what are people into.

[01:22:46] I know.

[01:22:46] Let us know what you're into.

[01:22:48] I feel like I'm pretty vanilla.

[01:22:50] I'm not going to lie.

[01:22:52] Yeah.

[01:22:52] Yeah.

[01:22:54] I go on.

[01:22:54] There's a subreddit called chick flicks on reddit.

[01:22:58] Yeah.

[01:22:59] With three X's.

[01:23:01] I believe chick flicks with three X's.

[01:23:03] So like porn that would be for women audiences.

[01:23:07] Exactly.

[01:23:08] Yeah.

[01:23:08] It's more.

[01:23:10] I guess loving more couples.

[01:23:13] More like some more narratives.

[01:23:15] More focus on her pleasure.

[01:23:17] Less of the male gaze.

[01:23:18] Like it's not always perfect.

[01:23:20] And there's some more kink stuff on there too.

[01:23:22] Which is fun.

[01:23:24] But.

[01:23:25] Yeah.

[01:23:26] Check it out.

[01:23:26] It's been a very helpful community.

[01:23:28] I feel like as someone who left the church and is rebuilding their sexual understanding of themselves.

[01:23:33] Erica Smith promotes a website called Cheeks.

[01:23:36] Oh.

[01:23:37] Cheeks.

[01:23:37] Cheeks.

[01:23:38] Cheeks.

[01:23:38] Cheeks.

[01:23:39] Cheeks.

[01:23:40] Cheeks.

[01:23:41] It's a very.

[01:23:42] It's sex positive.

[01:23:43] It's a feminist.

[01:23:44] And it's not just porn videos.

[01:23:47] Yeah.

[01:23:47] There's like articles.

[01:23:50] There's ASMR.

[01:23:51] Erotic stories.

[01:23:53] Yeah.

[01:23:54] For every kind of sexuality.

[01:23:57] That's great.

[01:23:58] It's very inclusive.

[01:23:59] Okay.

[01:23:59] I'm going to check that out.

[01:24:00] There's like a 30 day free trial you can get.

[01:24:03] Okay.

[01:24:03] So it's a subscription.

[01:24:04] Because I don't.

[01:24:06] You know.

[01:24:06] I don't know.

[01:24:08] All the ethical things that kind of came out.

[01:24:11] But there was a female porn maker.

[01:24:14] Porn director named Erica Lust.

[01:24:16] Erica Lust.

[01:24:16] Yeah.

[01:24:16] Also talked about by some of the content warning folks.

[01:24:19] Okay.

[01:24:20] And I know there's been some kind of weird stuff around her.

[01:24:23] More recently.

[01:24:24] But I would say that.

[01:24:26] That was like kind of my first introduction.

[01:24:28] To just like you know.

[01:24:31] Less male gaze porn.

[01:24:33] Yeah.

[01:24:33] Yeah.

[01:24:34] And there's a whole documentary about her.

[01:24:36] Yeah.

[01:24:36] Yeah.

[01:24:36] I think that's how I got turned on to her.

[01:24:38] Turned on by her.

[01:24:40] But it was.

[01:24:41] Yeah.

[01:24:42] Really really well done.

[01:24:44] Like cinematic quality videos.

[01:24:47] With.

[01:24:48] I think they did a series where they asked women to write in like their.

[01:24:51] Yeah.

[01:24:52] Biggest sexual fantasies.

[01:24:53] Yeah.

[01:24:53] And they made an entire series out of it.

[01:24:55] Yeah.

[01:24:55] And it was amazing.

[01:24:57] One of them was.

[01:24:58] I'll never forget this one.

[01:24:59] It was a concert pianist.

[01:25:00] And she's like I have dreams of playing concert piano.

[01:25:04] And I'm completely naked.

[01:25:05] And one by one people from the audience come up and start to go down on me.

[01:25:10] And that's the entire thing.

[01:25:12] And basically she's still playing the keys.

[01:25:14] And orgasms basically as the piece climax.

[01:25:17] This is.

[01:25:18] Wow.

[01:25:19] Yeah.

[01:25:19] It was pretty great.

[01:25:20] It was beautiful.

[01:25:20] Method playing.

[01:25:22] Yeah.

[01:25:23] Yeah.

[01:25:23] It was very titillating.

[01:25:25] Yeah.

[01:25:26] Yeah.

[01:25:26] Yeah.

[01:25:27] That definitely.

[01:25:28] We can relate to playing music.

[01:25:30] I don't know if I can play.

[01:25:32] Yeah.

[01:25:32] Very well.

[01:25:33] But I mean.

[01:25:34] You know.

[01:25:35] Obviously there's a lot of male gazey porn that is just like women masturbating.

[01:25:39] But this was not that.

[01:25:40] This was like I think so empowering because it was wish fulfillment.

[01:25:44] Yeah.

[01:25:45] And it's centering women's pleasure.

[01:25:47] Yeah.

[01:25:48] Which is apparently not common in porn.

[01:25:52] Which is so weird.

[01:25:52] We're like 50% of the population.

[01:25:54] Yeah.

[01:25:55] But more women are watching porn apparently according to the research.

[01:25:58] So.

[01:25:58] That's great.

[01:25:59] Yeah.

[01:25:59] And so the market will dictate that more will be made for women.

[01:26:04] So.

[01:26:04] Is there still money in porn?

[01:26:06] I am curious.

[01:26:07] I don't know.

[01:26:07] I read something that it's definitely less.

[01:26:12] Okay.

[01:26:13] It's like the music industry right?

[01:26:14] Yeah.

[01:26:14] So everything went online to streaming.

[01:26:17] Yeah.

[01:26:17] Yeah.

[01:26:18] And now you know you got like people who have top 10 hits and don't have any money.

[01:26:23] Yeah.

[01:26:23] Or have very little.

[01:26:24] Or it's like OnlyFans where it's like yeah only the top 5% makes any sort of like livable wage.

[01:26:29] So Wild Violet and Transvangelical are on OnlyFans and they're part of our content warning crew.

[01:26:37] I don't know how much they make but you know they.

[01:26:41] So far you could you can make you can supplement your income.

[01:26:45] Okay.

[01:26:45] With even a small presence footprint platform on OnlyFans.

[01:26:52] So in a sense that's still kind of a positive thing.

[01:26:57] Okay.

[01:26:57] Lucrative.

[01:26:58] Can be lucrative.

[01:26:59] Well that's good.

[01:27:00] That's good.

[01:27:01] I've always joked I'm going to start an OnlyFans.

[01:27:04] Because you know everyone loves middle-aged Asian American men.

[01:27:08] So.

[01:27:08] Hey you don't know.

[01:27:10] I have met some women who are very very into Asian men.

[01:27:14] Yeah.

[01:27:15] I feel like there'd be a lot of white gay men from West Hollywood.

[01:27:18] Maybe.

[01:27:20] I've met some black women who are obsessed with Asian men.

[01:27:23] Not that I'm saying you know I don't want to commodify anything.

[01:27:26] Yeah.

[01:27:26] I'm okay being fetishized for a little while.

[01:27:28] Yeah.

[01:27:28] I know.

[01:27:29] Yeah.

[01:27:30] I don't know.

[01:27:31] Not forever.

[01:27:32] Yeah.

[01:27:32] But you know just just just to experience that.

[01:27:34] Just to repair past hurts.

[01:27:36] Yeah.

[01:27:36] You know.

[01:27:36] Just enough to like fill up a hole that was cut in.

[01:27:40] Because you're an Asian woman and that's according to like was it Match or one of those sites.

[01:27:45] The most desirable.

[01:27:46] Yeah.

[01:27:47] Of the of the women folk.

[01:27:49] It's true.

[01:27:50] I yeah.

[01:27:51] I mean that stat is true.

[01:27:53] My personal experience has not necessarily matched that.

[01:27:56] Well it's because we're all fucked up by purity culture.

[01:27:58] Yeah.

[01:27:58] And we don't take advantage of the things.

[01:28:01] Yeah.

[01:28:01] Your mom said you were you were not 10.

[01:28:04] She said I was a kind six.

[01:28:05] Yeah.

[01:28:06] That's not fair.

[01:28:08] No.

[01:28:08] But you know I I think yeah I think that it's interesting to be part of a stereotyped group

[01:28:19] that is sexualized.

[01:28:21] Yeah.

[01:28:21] Because it's got its own problems.

[01:28:22] But yeah.

[01:28:23] Maybe that's another.

[01:28:24] That's another topic.

[01:28:25] Yeah.

[01:28:25] We're going to save that for next Sunday.

[01:28:27] Save that one.

[01:28:28] I'm just saying.

[01:28:29] All right.

[01:28:30] Please give to the offering basket.

[01:28:32] It's being passed around.

[01:28:34] Yeah.

[01:28:35] No.

[01:28:36] Keep handing it.

[01:28:36] Keep handing it to the next person.

[01:28:38] Thank you.

[01:28:39] Thank you.

[01:28:40] Don't take money out of it to me.

[01:28:44] And we have enough sex toys now so you don't have to put those in the plate.

[01:28:48] Oh.

[01:28:48] We have enough.

[01:28:49] Yeah.

[01:28:49] I think we have enough.

[01:28:50] We don't have enough batteries.

[01:28:51] All right.

[01:28:52] No more sex toys.

[01:28:53] Although.

[01:28:53] Is that the rabbit?

[01:28:55] You can you can check that.

[01:28:56] All right.

[01:28:56] One one more.

[01:28:57] One more.

[01:28:57] One more.

[01:28:59] All right.

[01:29:00] Be sure to take communion everyone.

[01:29:01] Yeah.

[01:29:03] You say on horny goats stay horny.

[01:29:06] Yeah.

[01:29:06] We have to have a different sign off.

[01:29:08] Okay.

[01:29:10] Well your body's a temple.

[01:29:11] Your body's a temple.

[01:29:12] Yeah.

[01:29:13] For whatever that means to you.

[01:29:14] Yeah.

[01:29:15] Decorate it.

[01:29:16] Yeah.

[01:29:17] Desecrate it.

[01:29:19] Fondle it.

[01:29:20] Touch it.

[01:29:21] Yeah.

[01:29:21] Share it.

[01:29:23] Oh.

[01:29:23] Oh I like that.

[01:29:24] Open the doors to the temple.

[01:29:26] Mm.

[01:29:30] Great.

[01:29:31] All right.

[01:29:31] We're actually done.

[01:29:32] Thanks everyone for listening.

[01:29:35] Your body has a temple.

[01:30:02] And try not to blurt.

[01:30:09] And flirts.

[01:30:13] Fucking ain't worth it.