Chapel Probation s4- Marla Taviano Returns to Talk Poem Art Therapy and Terrible Christian Men

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[00:01:35] We're going to probe into the patriarchal mind to decolonize and clean it out.

[00:01:48] Greetings, Reprovades! You might be wondering why Scott talking like this. Well, today's

[00:01:56] a special episode, we're gonna get into poem art therapy. Basically we're going to probe

[00:02:07] the male mind, the colonized patriarchal male mind. We're gonna get in there and we're going to

[00:02:16] root out all that shitty patriarchy that's clogging up the world. That's right, take a deep breath.

[00:02:30] We have our first official return guest today, and it's the incredible Marla Taviano who just

[00:02:35] had her fourth book of poetry published called Poem Art Therapy by Lake Drive Books. And today we're

[00:02:41] talking about the shuddiest of shitty marriages, Christian ones. I guess more specifically we're

[00:02:48] talking about shitty Christian husbands. Well, no, we're actually talking about men in general.

[00:02:56] And news flash, we suck. It's way more fun than it sounds. I hope to some of you though, it

[00:03:07] might be worse. And on the theme of purity culture and bizarre sexual ethics and Christianity,

[00:03:15] well let's not spoil anything. How about a little content warning here about,

[00:03:21] so it's, yeah, about the most fucked up system of sexual politics and relationship parameters

[00:03:26] as you can get. So the first time Marla came on to Jeppel Probation, she unpacked her decolonizing

[00:03:34] journey regarding race and she was so inspiring with her work with Lake Row Learning. This time

[00:03:42] work coming after Syshet Men in general. Mostly the Christian ones, but

[00:03:53] really all cis Hettman me included. It's time to bend over, assume the position and take these

[00:04:06] thoughts and poems from Marla Taviano. Shhh, try and relax. Deep breaths. Don't fight it.

[00:04:22] And heave is Marla Taviano. My pronouns are sheher and I have a new book called Poem Art Therapy

[00:04:28] Cassaric Wordcrofting after infidelity and divorce. Yes, you do. And welcome you're in the first

[00:04:35] official return guest on travel probation and hoping to have more but you're the first. So what do I

[00:04:41] win? Yes. Is there a prize? I didn't think that far ahead. So I'll get back to you. Oh,

[00:04:50] you know about it. Yeah, yeah, but they'll be something. Oh, so next year at content warning

[00:04:57] you can come down Dan Lanta. Oh, I didn't know it was in Atlanta. Yeah, I'm going to

[00:05:04] Atlanta in a couple weeks. It's just a three hour drive for me. So oh hell yeah. All right so I will

[00:05:10] I will you help my prize. I did. Yeah, I'll bite dinner in Atlanta. Okay Scott, I'm writing it down because

[00:05:17] I'm a president's wife in Atlanta. Okay, I'm there. Yeah, all right well this has been

[00:05:26] a great episode of Chapel Pro Basin. I think for this name. I've always a pleasure. Got that done.

[00:05:34] Yeah, all right so you're back because I saw all these posts about your new book and you've had

[00:05:40] like this is like the third book that came out since the last time you were on all all these amazing

[00:05:47] little books of poetry not little. There are books of poetry based on themes and you had a little

[00:05:53] really trilogy that you finished and this one is kind of a departure cathartic word crafting after

[00:05:59] infidelity and divorce. So catch us up on all your publishing in the last like two years.

[00:06:06] Okay, I don't remember which book I came on and talked about if it was unbeliever jaded um

[00:06:13] jaded was coming. Okay, all right so if people want to hear my whole backstory they can go

[00:06:19] some to the other episode. Yeah, I'll put a link in the show. Yeah but basically I lived in

[00:06:26] Cambodia for five years 2015 to 2020 move back in March of 2020 right at the beginning of the

[00:06:32] pandemic moved to a new state and on Labor Day 2020 my husband left unexpectedly and I found out that

[00:06:39] he had been cheating for four of the five years that we lived in Cambodia and I had just been getting

[00:06:45] ready to finally resume my writing and publishing again. I had four books traditionally published in 2006

[00:06:53] 789 when I was a very conservative evangelical Christian and I'd been doing e-books and things like that

[00:07:00] from Cambodia but I was ready to get back in it. Well then he laughed and I'm now a single mom of

[00:07:06] four teenagers and young adults in a new state in the middle of the pandemic trying to figure out what

[00:07:11] to do. So I actually still kept writing that book. I mean I got a lot of jobs to pay the bills

[00:07:17] and then in September 2021 so a year after he laughed I self-published unbelief

[00:07:24] and the next year I was getting ready in 2022 to self-publish jaded when I met David Morris like

[00:07:32] my son and I was a very good writer in the book. So you know and Lake Drive published jaded like as a last

[00:07:38] second thing December 2022 and then went back and republished unbelief and then in March of 2024

[00:07:48] whole the final book in the trilogy came out and that's what I probably call a deconstruction poetry

[00:07:55] trilogy which is kind of odd. It's probably the only one that is since

[00:08:01] yeah and you would think that might be a selling point but on the other hand it's one of those things

[00:08:06] why why do I need a deconstruction poetry trilogy and so that's been a challenge getting people to see

[00:08:13] why they might need it but it's it's been it's been fun everyone I'll say everyone needs it

[00:08:20] I'm really really proud of it and I get DMs every day from people who have been touched by it so that's

[00:08:27] that and I so my former publishing career was all prose no poetry so I've been

[00:08:35] meaning to get back into that but in the meantime I had some messed up copies of unbelief

[00:08:42] and I decided to rip those out like paid the brip the poems out I started cutting them up

[00:08:47] and gluing them on illustrations from vintage kids books I started with Frog and Toad I went to

[00:08:53] Sesame Street Amelia the deal you all these books I read growing up so I find a picture that

[00:08:59] matched the poem and make this poem arts actually like a meme but it's physical I cut it out and

[00:09:06] glued it on. Yeah like old school like that book yes yes cutting out and gluing on yeah and

[00:09:12] I could not believe the how much this resonated with people people started sharing them they're excited about them

[00:09:18] so I decided to self publish and now I cannot remember when this was before

[00:09:24] whole came out and it's a book called Please Cut Out My Poems and I have some poems in there

[00:09:31] from unbelievable even jaded then a lot of new poems and then I got 15 friends to submit poems

[00:09:37] and what makes us a little bit different is there's nothing on the backs of the pages the

[00:09:42] poems are only on the front of the page and you it literally is for you to take it rip it apart cut

[00:09:49] the poems out and make your own art because people started doing it and they were telling me this

[00:09:55] is really healing and since then I've been reading I'm reading a book called Your Brain on Art

[00:10:01] and finding out the different ways that art and music can literally change your brain bring healing

[00:10:10] and so since the last four years I have been I've got divorced unexpectedly found out four months later

[00:10:18] about all the cheating have been a single mom there's a lot of healing going on and I wrote a lot of

[00:10:24] poems in my the construction trilogy about divorce and cheating and decided to do a whole book that's

[00:10:31] polemart therapy is where some of the poems are from those books and then a whole bunch of new poems

[00:10:35] and they're supposed in there too you can't tell a whole story just in the poetry and I don't tell

[00:10:40] my whole story I will do that at some point but this specifically is for I mean it can be for anyone

[00:10:49] and anyone can read the book you don't have to be divorced or been cheated on to get something out of

[00:10:59] creative way to heal I've already just okay this Monday yes Sunday a friend of mine who got divorced

[00:11:06] around the same time I did except lucky her whatever state she was in Indiana I think she was officially

[00:11:13] divorced 30 days I think from when from one he left or whatever there's a year long waiting period

[00:11:22] in South Carolina on the family values people and I put that in quotes right think that this long

[00:11:27] period will convince people to stay married it's not true then you add covert on top of that so my

[00:11:34] ex left on September 7 2020 I was officially divorced February 18 2022 so 17 months later

[00:11:45] I finally had that those divorce papers in hand so I mean you didn't cope crawling back to your husband

[00:11:53] begging him to stay married to you in that and all those months I did not crawl back to him because he

[00:11:59] actually went back to Cambodia to be with his lover and then ditched her and came back to the US anyway

[00:12:05] he said he's a gem of a guy we haven't seen him since he has not seen his kids since September 7 2020

[00:12:13] you mentioned that on your Instagram live and I was like can I just say as your friend

[00:12:21] fuck that guy I was heartbroken for your kids that's because it's their dad you know that's like

[00:12:28] there's a lot lost there because of his actions and because he is who he is and

[00:12:37] that must make it tricky right as as you move forward and and heal from this

[00:12:45] yeah that just seems to make it complicated because you have to process your own

[00:12:51] feelings and experiences meanwhile your kids have a different probably a different take on it right

[00:13:00] yeah it's it's hard he he was a shitty dad a lot of the time and so

[00:13:10] without like I cannot speak for them I mean I can I know what they've said I'm not going to say

[00:13:16] all of that but the bottom line is pretty much we're better off without him here in our house

[00:13:23] in our lives however there's I'm reading a book by Bell Hooks right now the will to change and

[00:13:32] about man and patriarchy and it's talking about how all of us desire to be loved by men

[00:13:39] and that what she's saying just is we all desire to be loved by everyone but that that desire

[00:13:46] whether it's your father your brother your friend or whatever even feminists you want to say

[00:13:51] that they don't need man or whatever we just we need to be loved by the people who should

[00:14:00] that they're still pain there like there's and so they might even he even told me when he

[00:14:10] left you're going to be better off without me and he was right and he knew that I'm like

[00:14:16] well yeah because you made my life hell the last few years of course I'm going to be better

[00:14:20] off without you but it doesn't take away the pain of being cheated on for that long and being

[00:14:27] treated like I was treated and then my my kids don't have a dad so yeah it's it's hard and they're

[00:14:36] each healing in their own ways and I they are the best humans in in the world I love them so much

[00:14:46] and they've been through a lot anyway I mean their dad had a heart attack a massive heart attack

[00:14:50] in 2011 his left anterior descending artery was 100% block it's called the Widowmaker he should have

[00:14:58] died and they went through all this and honestly he was never the same after that heart attack

[00:15:06] and I have a poem in the book in poem art therapy about how I will sometimes attribute some of

[00:15:18] after his heart attack he went through three years of intense panic attacks and anxiety and all that

[00:15:25] and my kids will say yamam we get that but don't let him off the hook just because of that

[00:15:33] and I'm like yeah well he's he's still a dick like he's as the and it's kind of I mean

[00:15:39] like we're selling like Donald Trump and yes I will compare my husband in in several ways to Donald Trump

[00:15:45] the man has a mental illness like whatever you believe about narcissism so see if

[00:15:50] happy it's incurable all of this there's something wrong in his brain well then don't put him in

[00:15:57] charge of the world like that's just what you do so that's white male privilege right like you can

[00:16:04] be completely fucked up but people still like no but yeah he can do it he's fine so so there's definitely

[00:16:12] some mental illness there and that's a whole I mean I could just write and talk forever about that

[00:16:19] and yeah but my kids are amazing and they are resilient and I wish they didn't have to be

[00:16:27] and I would love for their lives to be super easy going forward um they or may not happen but

[00:16:35] we're doing well and people I get I get compliments and comments all the time that I

[00:16:44] I look younger I look more free like there's just nothing like I I don't have the money to do anything

[00:16:53] to my face or myself like I'm just this is just if you look at photos for me of me in 2019-20

[00:17:01] I do I look like five years younger because that's that wait now at the beginning like 2021

[00:17:08] I don't even know at the single thing that happened in 2021 that was just like this blur to me

[00:17:15] but I am lighter and freer and happier and it also pairs with the whole letting go of toxic

[00:17:23] religion and I've also been asked is that why your marriage broke up because you were de-constructing

[00:17:28] no that's not that's not why I sprung on you yeah yeah no you do look I want maybe younger and but just

[00:17:41] more energetic yeah more alive I don't know it's not I can't put words to it but I've

[00:17:48] noticed watching your Instagram lives that there's an extra spring in your step down and you're

[00:17:59] now it's you know to all that I just there's so much that you've been through instead of short amount of time

[00:18:08] yeah I'm just inspired by your your courage and your strength yeah I can't wait to

[00:18:17] see you in in Atlanta now I'm taking the most expensive place there is to eat dinner no

[00:18:24] okay let's start saving so not not Taco Bell okay no I actually do like Taco Bell

[00:18:34] so we're strangely enough yeah but somewhere between there and the most expensive place will

[00:18:39] find something because most expensive isn't always better no it's not and I don't it's hard for

[00:18:45] me to enjoy an expensive meal if I'm being honest like I just am constantly thinking about how much

[00:18:50] this cost how many books I could buy what's all my plans that's telling you measure

[00:18:57] you measure a cost in books yeah well I've never had a lot of money actually I have more money

[00:19:04] currently than I did when I was married so that's another thing but but yeah okay so we got that

[00:19:11] on the calendar all right it's on the record today that's it is people are gonna hold us to this

[00:19:20] to whatever degree you're comfortable like you told me at some point maybe as the last time

[00:19:25] you're on here or during one of our discussions that you wrote books about marriage and sex

[00:19:32] from a Christian point of view that is correct and I have not located those books myself

[00:19:38] I'm not even told you not to I'm sure I did but while you were writing those books

[00:19:45] and sort of touting your marriage as an example to other Christians did you already see the

[00:19:52] cracks in your husband and in your relationship that is a very good question and I am currently

[00:19:59] on a mission to go back read those books I have 62 journals from 2000 to 2020 where I wrote to

[00:20:08] God all about everything and a lot of it in there is I'm trying really hard to be submissive I really

[00:20:14] have a lot of misadmissive all this so cracks I see them looking back now I did not see them as cracks

[00:20:25] and then so at the time you were just they were just things that you need to work through and

[00:20:29] you as the life yes it was it was all my fault it was all on my shoulders like anything

[00:20:38] that wasn't going well because I was having trouble submitting I wasn't submitting to his

[00:20:44] leadership that's why he won't lead because I'm not putting myself under him it's it's it's

[00:20:53] it's infuriating it's disgusting to me now and I write poems about this too that the

[00:20:59] ignorance combined with my arrogance is what makes it so terrible and we see that now with a lot of

[00:21:07] people like going back to Trump I see that with Trump supporters their ignorance paired with their

[00:21:12] arrogance is that one too punch that just makes everything so terrible and that's what I was doing

[00:21:19] six years in the marriage I was writing a book that went out in the world telling newlywed women

[00:21:26] like how to to be a good wife and I was literally regurgitating all of the Christian

[00:21:34] marriage books that I had read up to that point and the way that I set mine apart and made mine

[00:21:40] different I was like these women have been married 25 years and they're coming with all of

[00:21:44] their experience and telling you what to do I'm just right here in the six seven years into it so

[00:21:51] I'm writing the middle of it and I'm coming at you live with how you can do this and I'm young

[00:21:57] and I'm funny and read my book with the same shit that everybody else is saying I'm just

[00:22:04] putting a cool twist on it because I'm 30 and I can tell a good story and I can write really well

[00:22:14] I just read if the first book is called from Blushing Gride to Whatedwife I just re-read that

[00:22:19] a few months ago the next one is called is that all he thinks about how to enjoy great sex with your husband

[00:22:26] I got stuck after Blushing Gride I'm like I can't open this book I can't do it I don't want to read it

[00:22:32] I don't and I will because I'm writing the next thing the next big thing I write will be

[00:22:42] prose it will be not a memoir but it's going to be about marriage and divorce and

[00:22:51] infidelity and patriarchy and purity culture and I want it to be interesting I want it to be funny

[00:23:00] I want to tell my story and so I've been piecing things together for quite a while now just

[00:23:06] sit down and do it but I'm ready and I feel not uniquely equipped there are other people that are

[00:23:14] equipped but just to have those books that I wrote like there are the books there are the journals

[00:23:21] here's who I am now this is what happens I can't figure it all out but I can put together some pieces and show

[00:23:28] you what kind of damage this does when you believe this way and so yeah I don't remember your

[00:23:38] original question but I did I was writing to women from the depths of my soul like I believe

[00:23:48] this is the way that truth in the life and I'm going to help you be good at being married what I will

[00:23:55] so the um I don't know if you're familiar with the book Sacred Marriage by Gary Thomas and the

[00:24:01] premise of the book like the tagline is um I'm not going to get it right but marriage isn't

[00:24:09] designed to make you happy it's designed to make you holy so that is what I believe like when

[00:24:16] you ask about the cracks in my marriage when I was unhappy in my marriage I was like well yay this

[00:24:23] this is God making me holy like this marriage is really hard and so I'm becoming more and more

[00:24:31] holy so my marriage was hard for the bulk of 22 plus a years and I thought that was normal

[00:24:39] that's how marriage should be so I didn't see it as red flags and cracks I saw it as everybody's

[00:24:46] marriage is really really really hard and probably because their husbands are like mine well they

[00:24:52] aren't like some people actually married good guys I found that I'm like oh like you really love

[00:24:59] each other and your husband's kind to you and yeah um so there's a there's a lot and I can't say

[00:25:06] it was 100% terrible all the time it wasn't but I do struggle with listening to women whose

[00:25:15] husbands cheated and left and then then they try to own their part and I'm like I'm

[00:25:23] really struggling here it's an own a part like I can't figure out like the only part I would

[00:25:28] be able to own is to say that I let him get away with things because I thought I was following God

[00:25:35] like how is that anyway so I'm still working through that but yeah that's one thing that

[00:25:42] gets to me when women said I could have been more this I couldn't have been more anything like I was

[00:25:50] I was too much of yeah too much too much but for him well yeah I just mean trying too hard

[00:26:01] to to be a good submissive godly wife under the patriarchy with the purity culture and all

[00:26:12] I can hear some of men clenching up and saying hey not all men and so shut the fuck up

[00:26:27] for not talking about you don't do nothing on you to acknowledge that society is dominated by

[00:26:39] pure tannical patriarchal systems run by asshole men and their cis women minions

[00:26:45] so maybe try smiling more women get that advice a lot from men now Marla tried so hard to be the

[00:27:01] perfect Christian wife and she hasn't even got to the worst part so hold this position

[00:27:09] lean into the truth penetrating you deep breaths feels worse if you tighten up

[00:27:19] or almost all the way in and we not really but just tell yourself that anyway Marla did her

[00:27:27] duty as a good Christian wife she even wrote sex guides as you'll hear for Christian married couples

[00:27:32] and it's as awful as you're imagining even though she wasn't in a good marriage or having good sex

[00:27:42] she wrote books about it what is it you want to meet directly from Simon's out too I was born here

[00:27:57] almost 60 years ago I'm not gonna live another 60 years you always told me it takes time

[00:28:04] it took my father's time I'm mother's time my uncle's time my brother's the my sister's time

[00:28:10] when he's my nephew's time how much time do you want for your progress

[00:28:32] for America you give us a hard time for being white being American and being controlled

[00:28:36] and we live under a situation like that constantly and then you ask me whether I approve of violence

[00:28:45] and that just doesn't make any sense at all yeah there's a lot of crazy stuff happening right now

[00:28:51] and you know what we do space when we can debrief some of it and deconstruct if you've been

[00:28:56] looking for a POC centered podcast that engages with intersectionality religion critical race theory

[00:29:02] and some hip hop culture then you need to check out pro fame phase I'll be your host Daniel White

[00:29:08] Hodge and we go in every other week so check us out wherever you find your podcasts or

[00:29:14] check us out at whitehodgepodcasts.com to see what other platforms we're on cool I peace

[00:29:26] and another thing I talk about when I talk about deconstructing so I was leading the way

[00:29:32] with deconstruction in our family I led the way in everything and so because he was content to sit

[00:29:39] on the couch and do nothing like in all areas of everything and that came naturally to him

[00:29:44] because his mom did everything in his family so he went from like his mom doing everything to his

[00:29:49] wife doing everything and he did come around to different things like we had big talks about

[00:29:55] white supremacy and racism we joined of multi ethnic church our pastor was black we had all these

[00:30:00] talks from Trayvon Martin was killed then he also became queer affirming to a point I'm not sure

[00:30:08] exactly how but all of these things even abortion his mom got pregnant with him when she was 18

[00:30:14] and he had been so extoncially anti-abortion because his mom had been encouraged to have an abortion

[00:30:20] and she didn't she chose to birth to him at 18 that all makes sense so all of these things

[00:30:26] that he came around to like deciding to vote for Hillary Clinton and not Donald Trump but the

[00:30:33] one thing he could not do was like any talk of feminism he would throw that in my face

[00:30:40] because that was the one thing that affected him like he didn't like the idea of women his

[00:30:46] much exactly so that that was a red flag that I saw like all the time he did that so blatantly and

[00:30:55] so loudly and got very very angry whenever I would say anything along those lines and now I

[00:31:10] after the anniversary of our engagement and he got married in this same place where we had our honey

[00:31:17] man and I just I read in a book I read in this book that I was reading that narcissists that

[00:31:25] I'm not I can't like identify like him like put that label on him but he has a lot of the tendencies

[00:31:32] that they are so unoriginal like they can't figure out new things and so I had just had just

[00:31:41] happened and then like the following week I'm reading this and it's a woman who has been cheated on her

[00:31:48] and then there are photos of him on Instagram where he had taken his new girl to the same place

[00:31:54] for her birthday like the he had taken his life for her birthday. It's what he knows. Get it good in

[00:32:00] place dude. Oh yeah I mean so early we talked you talked about the system that tells women

[00:32:11] to not be happy but holy and that is so insidious because it allows women to be abused emotionally

[00:32:21] even physically and then accept that as some kind of sign that they're on the right track you know

[00:32:27] their marriage is holy because it's hard and it's challenging and it's not so filling and it's

[00:32:33] up to them to fix it and this is what a little horrible system. Yeah it really is complete crap

[00:32:43] and I like I've said I don't ever want to get married again as long as I live and I have friends

[00:32:50] who have been remarried and they're like Marley just gonna find the right person. I'm like listen

[00:32:54] I need at least 10 more years to recover. There's like I can't fathom being in a relationship

[00:33:04] where I'm not the one doing all the work like I don't know what that is like and I don't really

[00:33:10] want to be in a relationship with the other person does all the work and I'm not in a place where

[00:33:14] I'm willing to do like 20% extra work that I'm doing right now like I really enjoy my own work

[00:33:23] and helping my kids out when they need it and so we'll see I'm not gonna say never but

[00:33:31] he really made my life so much harder not easier in any way. And yeah I'm seeing that now

[00:33:42] when the JD Vance is out here everywhere to an outlaw when this airs I'm hoping by the time

[00:33:47] this airs that Trump has dumped him is trying to find a new guy and it's all a mess but

[00:33:52] but he hadn't talking about people you need to have kids you need to have family just family

[00:33:58] values when I hear family values all I hear is patriarchy all I hear isn't men being in control

[00:34:05] men having little armies that they're building in their home and where their wives have to submit

[00:34:12] and they have to I mean my book about enjoying sex with your husband is almost the whole entire thing

[00:34:19] it's about even if you feel don't feel like it you need to do it like that's how it goes

[00:34:24] that's what all of them say exactly and why do they say that they have to make it your duty

[00:34:32] because they know you're not going to want to because of the way that they're treating you

[00:34:36] the marriage that you're in and all of that and so these women either either stuck in a marriage

[00:34:43] or they feel like they for me I really want to do the right thing I really wanted to be godly

[00:34:50] and holy and do what god wanted and that's what I thought that that was and man

[00:35:00] since I'm not going to read that particular book how how how specific or how explicit

[00:35:08] were you as you as you talked about sex in a marriage okay that is a good question because

[00:35:15] I will I'm gonna have to read it it was harvest house public publishers in Eugene or I'm just very

[00:35:21] conservative no so I'm not and I would not have felt comfortable like getting super

[00:35:28] explicit but it does talk I mean we're talking about more kind of a body part for talking

[00:35:33] about things that you can do in the bedroom there's a chapter completely about oral sex and

[00:35:38] actually I ironically that got me in trouble at the church I was at at the time they were going to

[00:35:45] do this seminar on sex for married couples and one of the people there asked me and I was not

[00:35:52] it's not like a church I grew up in I'd only been there for a few months I can't remember how

[00:35:57] they even knew that I wrote this book but so this is 2007 and I wrote the book they're going to

[00:36:03] do this sex seminar and so somebody asks me to share like do one of the sessions because I have

[00:36:11] this book well there's a woman pastor and this is the funny part she was they were fine with her

[00:36:16] being a woman pastor but she sees it was the chapter I didn't know this until later but it was

[00:36:21] the chapter on oral sex that she was like ah no she cannot come here we cannot have her here they

[00:36:28] I came to meeting after meeting all of this stuff was just really really weird and I ended up

[00:36:33] being on this panel instead of doing a thing and I wasn't exactly sure what all happened here

[00:36:39] we moved away not too long after that so this is 2007 in 2023 so last year I reconnected with a guy who

[00:36:49] was the associate pastor at this church it was a pretty big church he called me like we set up

[00:36:56] a phone call just a few months ago then 2007 now it's 2023 and he told me the whole story like

[00:37:04] everything that had happened and he apologized and he said that he had been cleaning up after the

[00:37:10] head pastor the whole entire time he was there and he's talking about this corruption and this

[00:37:16] and that and that and you got treated so and nobody told me that nobody apologized for treating me

[00:37:23] unfairly so 2007 to 2023 and then I get to find out from this guy who was also apologizing because he

[00:37:31] did that long to tell me I'm sorry I'm sorry for the part that I played so all of that to say

[00:37:38] I guess it was a little bit explicit because people didn't like it and here's me now I was such a

[00:37:46] proved like I it's so ironic that there are people who thought I was to writing things that were

[00:37:53] new yeah in the context of marriage right yeah yeah I mean so tell me if I'm close so you can't say

[00:38:04] you can't give like explicit instructions I'm gonna grab it off the shelf hold on my hands okay

[00:38:11] yeah okay we're about to go blue here so like okay you know like I I

[00:38:25] from Erica Smith the sex educator she showed me this website called cheeks and they have like

[00:38:33] tutorials and both video and written and you know it's real basic things of like how to have

[00:38:40] oral sex yeah so how does a Christian woman in 2007 describe okay let me find a like

[00:38:48] Felaccio okay here I'm gonna I'm gonna be dead honest with you my knowledge of sex then

[00:38:59] was like non-existent my knowledge of sex now is a little bit more but it is not that great

[00:39:09] I have had sex with one person in my lifetime and that was my husband after we got married

[00:39:15] and while we were married and yeah so why on earth here's the book why on earth would someone

[00:39:24] read this book written by me when I know nothing again well you know enough well all I knew

[00:39:33] where is for audience I was like why can't I find this oral sex because the title of the chapter

[00:39:39] chapter 11 is the other kind of sex what oh yeah let's put some sexy music let's see

[00:39:54] and just and we're getting to your current book which is sort of like a response to

[00:40:01] a clap back to your previous writing like this okay yeah I'm not gonna read this to you Scott

[00:40:11] because this is like too much for me but there is no I'm not there's no you're gonna not

[00:40:18] to buy this book I will read like the first couple of years it's all a recipe for pleasure

[00:40:26] tease a tiny licks for a few seconds then cover his entire penis with your mouth

[00:40:30] impossible come up for error when you need to take little breaks of light blowing kissing etc

[00:40:37] is this me that I copy this from somewhere I don't know and then there's a whole foot note about it

[00:40:42] so there's this whole thing that's gonna tell you exactly

[00:40:45] what you know that's actually more explicit than I thought it was gonna be no there's

[00:40:51] there I'm talking about swallowing seamen and more like a well look at you there's lubricant

[00:41:00] there's sucking things off like yeah so yeah go harvest house yeah serious because

[00:41:09] so when I taught at APU we had a Christian publisher come talk to our writing majors

[00:41:15] and he was telling them they couldn't use words like penis or

[00:41:21] describing specific sex acts you had to and he was talking about as some kind of fun

[00:41:25] artistic challenge to you know find other words or poetic ways okay that's the job of

[00:41:31] thing I've ever been no I know and I was just like this is lame like no I

[00:41:37] not okay I do remember kind of putting myself in some like like blocking this out like

[00:41:45] I am gonna write about this it is on the page and I put it in there and I wrote it but now

[00:41:50] I'm gonna pretend like that my parents can't read this or my grandma or whatever

[00:41:56] I'm not gonna look through this now but I'll let you know I want to say with all this whole talk

[00:42:03] about whole chapter on oral sex I was probably only talking about one way I was probably

[00:42:08] talking about pleasure in your husband and not and not on the flip side I'm sure that I didn't

[00:42:14] think that that mattered in any way that that so there's no woman just chapter that no that the

[00:42:21] woman would feel any kind of pleasure selfishly that wasn't doing her husband and he favors so yeah

[00:42:28] so that's that's heartbreaking because I'll check I will check that out but I don't remember

[00:42:34] well maybe I'll have to buy this book I might have an extra copy somewhere like and send you I do have

[00:42:41] a bunch of copies of my first one that is there's one sex chapter in that one and it's

[00:42:48] maybe a little explicit but not as much okay well yeah so I have a new podcast series called

[00:42:56] Horny Chapel with my friend Priscilla Leang yeah podcast called two Horny goats

[00:43:01] a chapel probation we put them together and we literally are talking about all of this this

[00:43:06] peer-to-cultures stuff of male sexuality is tense we male centered women don't get much out

[00:43:13] of the deal they have they have a lot of responsibilities but no no payoff for them and and that's

[00:43:26] it all the work in the house I earned money on the side and then that was another thing I had to do

[00:43:32] on top of all that it's after a day of exhaustion and being up all night with babies and then

[00:43:40] even even more that so yeah it was I'm gonna need a break for a while

[00:43:47] I'm going on four years I'm gonna need a little bit more time yeah you know that's sorry I'm just

[00:43:57] I'm in mourning right it's it's all right you know I I mean I

[00:44:05] as so much healing has happened and yes there are things that can hit me sometimes like oh

[00:44:10] while that is sad or I didn't have this or I didn't have that but but you don't need to feel sad for

[00:44:17] me I mean you can that's that's fine but I I don't feel sad for me now it's more just empathy

[00:44:24] yeah feeling because just knowing you as as much as I do or as little as I do I you know I just

[00:44:31] see you as an amazing person that you know deserves to have people in your life who appreciate that and

[00:44:40] yeah who worship at the altar of Marla because I do have that I have a lot of that and my kids

[00:44:46] are like I said they're amazing I mean they're thanking me I get thanks every single day

[00:44:53] for like thank you for buying these groceries thank you for this thank you they cook all of the food

[00:44:59] and when I thank them for this delicious meal they're like thank you for like buying the

[00:45:05] chicken and it's there yeah I wouldn't that's no I'm glad I am I got a good I got a good deal out of this

[00:45:18] marriage thing yeah and so you know I just started digging into your new book

[00:45:25] and after everything you just described this first half I feel like this is really great

[00:45:32] clap back to everything I feel like there is this is now we've seen the ragey Marla in

[00:45:38] I think the third especially in the third book of your trilogy actually in the second book that's

[00:45:44] second one that's where I was the second one the bitch is no but I loved that one yeah

[00:45:50] but like I feel like this is you in you processing everything and coming to some conclusions that

[00:45:59] might be new for you now so it's like this is this is Marla I'm holding the book up I don't know why

[00:46:07] because I don't know what this is this is why this is where Marla is headed this is where

[00:46:15] you're finding a more more parts of your voice and your identity and so like even though

[00:46:22] it's about in infidelity and divorce and it's you know clapping back at patriarchy and purity culture

[00:46:29] I don't know I think this is still under the umbrella of feminism and women's identity

[00:46:36] that because patriarchy and men in general are such a detriment to women's lives

[00:46:42] on this world that anyone who reads this is gonna resonate if you know if you're not some

[00:46:50] dickhead maga person but you know JD Vance stand I think your you're people are gonna really resonate

[00:46:57] with this and so yeah let's get this out there yeah I um I think I started to tell

[00:47:03] story then I didn't finish it but a friend oh that was telling you about the friend who got

[00:47:07] divorced really quickly when mine took a long time she texted me yesterday morning and sent me a

[00:47:13] picture of the book and she had bought five copies of the book and she has a little club of women

[00:47:19] who are all divorced and they were gonna have a poem art party yesterday where they were each

[00:47:24] gonna have the book and they were gonna make some art out of these poems I was like okay that's a coolest thing

[00:47:29] I've ever heard as please send me photos when you're done and she said that she would

[00:47:36] because that's that's the thing that's the thing that makes me fine with the fact that I've been

[00:47:46] through some hell in my mind the only the only hell that I can think of that's not redeemable

[00:47:55] is if one of my kids dies like that kind of thing I mean I'm sure that it that it would be in

[00:48:03] some way down the road but everything else that I've gone through in my life I've been able to get

[00:48:12] a point where I see wow I'm able to help this person I'm able to relate to like people can

[00:48:18] relate to me I'm helping them heal and that's what people have said about mine the construction poetry

[00:48:24] and now with this where like I had another friend text me on yesterday and she is in the middle of

[00:48:33] the horse and was telling me how encouraging it is to her and so yeah I'm a table of contents the

[00:48:42] sections are real like REL feel deal feel my sister-in-law had told me about real feel deal and

[00:48:51] heal as these stages of grief instead of like shock denial anger or something and that really stuck

[00:48:59] with me and so I just added a few other ones like peel back the things reveal and now I ended with

[00:49:06] zeal because I really do have so much zeal in my life but I wrote this book it's kind of a

[00:49:22] stand it it's there while I write the big one like while I write this kind of whole story and

[00:49:29] all the stuff this is bits and pieces this is just little parts of well I mean you can tell what my

[00:49:37] story is I write two pages about my story at the beginning like the the bare bones of it and then

[00:49:44] I'll add some pros at the beginning of each chapter and then you can kind of piece together

[00:49:48] things from the poems but I have a lot more to say that here's this until then and I don't know

[00:49:59] I'm just like you said I don't and he might have said this before we started that I was

[00:50:03] prolific like all this writing that I'm doing I am I am on fire like all of this stuff that I want to say

[00:50:12] I want to get out there and yeah I'm just going to say it I'm just going to do it there's I'm not worried

[00:50:19] anymore about what people think about what I'm doing I'll say whatever yeah it's it's a good

[00:50:32] place to be it feels really good and I've been able to encourage other people to get their story out there

[00:50:38] tell the truth to not be silent and I love that when people also start telling telling

[00:50:46] that truth in their stories okay we're almost all the way into the conversation

[00:51:05] and the truth we're probing deep into patriarchy at this point there's no shame in feeling

[00:51:15] a degree of pleasure in the knowledge and the decolonization of the patriarchy buried deep inside

[00:51:26] all of us so that famous douchebro pastor Mark Driscoll was known to talk explicitly about sex

[00:51:38] between Christian husbands and wives particularly the submission and servitude of women to do

[00:51:44] whatever their fucked up husbands asked and all that sexy top was for the penis havers not for women

[00:51:52] their role was and is to serve only no pleasures outside of servitude for women really sucks

[00:52:04] so oh um so let's get to the climax of this episode surrender to the sensations

[00:52:16] and explosive truth inside of you the right the wave of knowledge and decolonization

[00:52:27] of your peat we're gonna ride the wave with wireless poems now and then settle into a blissful

[00:52:38] afterglow find the rhythm and find the spots where it feels so I was gonna read or have you read a

[00:52:56] couple can you maybe just go through each chapter and read something like sure to walk us through

[00:53:04] like the process of all the things that rhyme with real okay so the first poem in the book is

[00:53:13] called word done he did all the talking he had it all planned out I sat there stunned and out of

[00:53:20] body experience that feels surreal to this day I sat there stunned later he would use my silence as

[00:53:27] proof that she doesn't care oh yeah when i so that's the first one in the book and i

[00:53:33] remember thinking wow there's so many layers okay so to meet now he's a teach literature and poetry

[00:53:40] and and you what you want out of a poem is layers you know the there's the surface meaning and then

[00:53:45] there's all the things in context beneath the words and that especially that last stand that

[00:53:52] proof that she doesn't care oh that says so much about him not understanding you and not

[00:54:02] understanding how people in general but yeah excellent last line there and this is also from the

[00:54:09] same section I just love this poem it's from one of my other books speaking out David Morris

[00:54:14] of like during books gave me permission to use I think 15 poems from my other books that were

[00:54:20] about the horse this is called two true things you were really hard to love and I really loved

[00:54:26] you hard is this a poem about my ex or Christianity oh yeah okay so the next section is

[00:54:36] feel and I also mentioned in here that it's not linear like I can't just say well here I was

[00:54:42] reeling and then I was feeling and then I was dealing and now I'm healing and also I put a caveat

[00:54:48] in here like a disclaimer past tense poetry alert because some of these things that I've

[00:54:54] write about I don't feel this way anymore I talk a lot about if you came back I would take you back

[00:54:58] like you were saying you were joking about earlier that's how I felt even after all this I'm like

[00:55:03] I would take you back if you okay so this is called empathy for a jerk the universe will make

[00:55:11] him pay for what he's done she tells me go gentle on him universe I think to myself and damn it

[00:55:19] hated that so much like even to this day I will feel pity for him I'm like what in the hell how

[00:55:29] how is this a thing another one for me we're together for so long that you know you're always

[00:55:37] going to be significant chunks of each other's lives yeah you know so you know from this section

[00:55:46] deal date redacted is the title of the poem oh would you look at the calendar for the first time

[00:55:55] in over 20 years I won't be there to remind you to wish your mom a happy birthday that is a dig

[00:56:04] on him and his mother because that is the god honest truth that every time that date rolled around

[00:56:13] which I know the date he probably can't say it all the time was said right now um did you wish your

[00:56:17] mom a happy birthday and then he would the mom who treated me like shit like if we're talking

[00:56:27] about how the feelings that I have for people who do I like less him or her it's her better and

[00:56:33] of the bargain we split all our crap down the middle half for me half for you I got our beautiful

[00:56:40] children and I let you keep your god yeah okay let's see peel so this is where I peel back the

[00:56:50] layers in our marriage and try to figure things out this is what I alluded to about the wholeliness

[00:56:59] refining fire I used to praise God for shitty things in my marriage because what a great

[00:57:05] opportunity to be holy and then another one a piece of advice get married if you must I've heard

[00:57:14] it's dreamy for some people but whatever you do do not get even jellically Christian married at

[00:57:20] least not to a narcissist that's a long one I peeled away a lot of stuff speaking of narcissists

[00:57:37] to my ex I've seen how you made all those judgmental and hateful comments about the

[00:57:43] adulterers and sluts just to throw me off your scent a well-known tactic used by all kinds of religious

[00:57:50] leaders mired and the same exact stuff they self-rightlessly condemn in others and I won't fall for it again

[00:58:00] like so far each thing you've read could be like the premise of a book yeah yeah so I got to figure

[00:58:08] out of put it all together um so this one is peel some more because I had some more

[00:58:16] feeling columns yeah this one is called another new girlfriend at the end I put pardon

[00:58:24] this self-indulgent poem I couldn't help myself I say at the beginning I tried to make these

[00:58:30] a little less specific a little more universal so that more people could make poem art from them

[00:58:35] than I I couldn't help myself another new girlfriend her Facebook post says God made a divine

[00:58:41] connection and brought someone special back into her life 126 comments from friends squealing so awesome

[00:58:49] I can't tell you how badly I want to chime in with 127 not to piss on your party but he's still

[00:58:56] legally married to me that was that was the tough one for those 17 months when he is going on with all

[00:59:04] stuff I'm like yeah too bad that I am still married to you yeah so much for self-care

[00:59:11] line of trying to get people back together but having a long thing I have a bonus section in here

[00:59:18] and what that actually means is these poems are not out of myographical so I put a lot of poems

[00:59:24] in there that were inspired by friends and their stories because I I know that my story is not

[00:59:36] whatever one is so let's see if I find it I felt so much guilt

[00:59:44] over leaving you without a reason but we only get this one life and I know I deserve to live a happy one

[00:59:52] and I do have him to thank for that one because I didn't I wouldn't say I didn't have the gut

[00:59:59] to leave I just didn't think it was even an option like it never even occurred to me I the plan was

[01:00:04] I'm staying married so the bitter end and hopefully it won't be a bitter end like hopefully things

[01:00:09] will get better um and so I didn't have to be the quote unquote bad guy and sometimes I do wish

[01:00:18] I would have been because instead of the bad guy it's like a badass who left her unhealthy unhappy

[01:00:24] marriage and I was not that woman I did not do I did not do that um okay so from the heel

[01:00:32] section stop running you're never going to heel until you own up to what you did and work to make it

[01:00:40] right but keep trying those shortcuts and I talk in here too about how I don't forgive people

[01:00:49] anymore I pray for their wholeness because the way I figure it you can't be whole unless you

[01:00:58] make things right and super my ex mother law for example she did a lot of really terrible things to me

[01:01:07] and no I'm not going to forgive her for those I'm going to pray I'm going to pray for her wholeness I pray

[01:01:13] that she becomes whole and she cannot become whole while leaving all of this out here that she did without

[01:01:22] repenting um and all of that okay this next section reveal and we talked about this so it's

[01:01:32] called own my part or the question mark you want me to make a list of all my flaws and faults

[01:01:37] that drove him to cheat and made it okay oh okay and then the last section is zeal

[01:01:50] and zeal according to Mary and Webster as an eagerness and ardent interest and pursuit of something

[01:01:56] firver and that's me and I write without a husband to get in my way and zap all of my energy and take

[01:02:01] all of my money I've had the time and freedom to write more read more laugh more make more

[01:02:05] homework have more fun build back my book collection et cetera et cetera et cetera okay

[01:02:15] composting a high coup look at all of these beautiful things I'm growing out of your bullshit

[01:02:25] and last one bin there done that I will absolutely celebrate your marriage but I don't

[01:02:33] ever want another one and I will even celebrate your cool church but I don't want another one of those

[01:02:38] either so those are my thoughts on going back to church and getting remarried I don't care how cool

[01:02:45] they are I am not currently interested in either of those options I love Sunday mornings

[01:02:52] on my couch by myself and I love every night in my bed by myself

[01:03:00] can I just say I don't think there that I'm gonna guess that those things are not cool

[01:03:07] his marriage and his church oh yeah I wasn't specifically talking to him like anyone who's trying

[01:03:15] to tell me no no I see what you're saying yeah yeah I'm still out there let's like yeah

[01:03:23] yeah no thanks I'm gonna no thanks no thanks but no yeah yeah so yeah I you know meeting you

[01:03:33] has been one of the highlights of this you know publishing deconstruction world and you know seeing

[01:03:39] the white girl learning work you've done and now this this work is so personal

[01:03:48] and whereas the the previous work you know when you were a Christian in publishing

[01:03:53] with sort of just popping up this sort of faux identity of the Christian wife and all her duties

[01:04:01] yeah man this is like so real and so just straight to the heart it's it's like even you know

[01:04:10] I'm I'm I'm a dude and I'm just you read these and I just get goosebumps it's like we need more

[01:04:16] of this because yeah you imagine JD Vance in the mega world it's just like they're trying

[01:04:23] to push us back into days where women are objects and in our own but men you know the reason

[01:04:31] they want they don't want quick no fault divorce is because you know if there's gonna be

[01:04:38] strife it's gonna be the man's domain you know like the man should control everything

[01:04:43] and we don't have the right to end their marriages or walk away from the marriages because

[01:04:51] well and I as people a couple people saw it even like an ex-in law said to me when we were

[01:04:57] gonna move back from Cambodia in 2020 to the US not even knowing at that time that my husband was

[01:05:05] cheating and planning to leave me at some point made the comment about me how are you going to

[01:05:13] make money in the US we've worked half missionaries half humanitarian workers like supplementing

[01:05:20] our income list things and kind of a sniver mark well there's some truth in it like all these people

[01:05:26] in ministry that have no like skills and then what do they do and then they try to just become

[01:05:33] deconstruction influencers and I'm not knocking people because I wrote books about it so I cannot

[01:05:39] say shame on you for making money off of your deconstruction I'm writing about this and people are buying

[01:05:47] the book but coming back and my ex husband actually got a job and had this job that I got

[01:05:57] in the job like one of my connections that I was writing for and then they had a job opening so I

[01:06:03] get in this job he starts making actual money for the first time and forever and then leaves and

[01:06:09] makes his paycheck with him so I was making $250 a week at the time that he left none of my kids could

[01:06:15] drive for good jobs I have an immigrant son-in-law he didn't have a green car like all of this stuff

[01:06:23] and I well one people helped me and then two I busted my ass and figured out how to do it so now

[01:06:30] I am making a living off of skills that I have writing and editing I don't make a living off my

[01:06:35] books I write for other people I go straight their books and they pay me good money to do that so I'm doing

[01:06:41] that but I think of so many Christian women who are in marriages and I know a couple of people

[01:06:49] that are in beautiful amazing marriages like loving kind there husbands help with the chores and

[01:06:54] the kids all of that and it's very it's very good but there's so many women the husband's out

[01:07:03] turn in the money their home with the kids there's no way they can leave like they could not leave

[01:07:10] what would they do how would they earn money you don't get paid to stay at home and be a wife and

[01:07:18] a mom and so that I just I get really itchy when I think about how many women are trapped like that

[01:07:27] I just want to tell all of them make some money figure out how to do this even if you think you're

[01:07:33] happy being a wife and a mom like this this is just not a good it's not a good situation like

[01:07:39] I know there are thousands and thousands and thousands of women that are trapped in this and

[01:07:45] they just have to uphold the patriarchy they don't they don't have a choice and for a lot of them

[01:07:50] it's their kids like they love their kids so much they have to stay in this for their kids

[01:07:59] and so they do it we'll do anything for our kids the moms will the dads often won't and that's

[01:08:07] I'm stereotyping but that's the truth of the matter in many cases that and that's what my husband was

[01:08:14] obciting not bringing in money my daughter saw this and they knew that mom would step up to the

[01:08:20] plate anytime dad didn't because mom would figure out away mom is not going to let the kids

[01:08:27] starve um dad on the other hand yeah so I just it's a and we're back to the system right

[01:08:35] yeah like some men will tell women they can't go back to school or get a job because

[01:08:42] they're threatened by this because they know the women will have agency to to make decisions about their

[01:08:48] own lives and and the men are threatened by that so yeah oh yeah sucks is there anything fun and

[01:08:57] happy we can talk about to end it yeah well I was thinking you Marla are like Christian men's worst

[01:09:09] yes and I I once upon a time I might have told you this before spoke at a men's retreat

[01:09:16] just me and my husband and one hundred seventy five men and it was all about how to

[01:09:23] wouldn't say how to convince your wives to have sex with you but it was like this is what you need to

[01:09:27] do like to be good husbands so your wives will want to have sex with you so then I was their best friends

[01:09:33] and yes now I'm not I'm no longer but yeah and I'm fine I will take up that mantle of being the

[01:09:45] the enemy of the worst enemy of the you know and you know this I meant that as the ultimate compliment

[01:09:50] yeah for sure um because fuck those men because that's that's most of what's wrong in our society

[01:09:57] is all this patriarchal bullshit that is so embedded into not just Christian you know culture just

[01:10:03] everyday um culture so yeah and you pair that like the intersectionality that Kimberly

[01:10:08] Grinch all talks about you pair that patriarchy with white supremacy and Christian nationalism

[01:10:16] and it's this trifecta of and then you bring in like straight cis men I mean so it's like

[01:10:27] yeah my my hope is that they've narrowed it down so much to who that they are catering to

[01:10:37] that the rest of us can all come together and and find it and I know that in the history of this

[01:10:43] country they've done a great job of pitting groups against each other when if we would all just

[01:10:49] if everyone being oppressed by white straight cis Christian men if we all got together there are

[01:10:56] more of us I mean heck if even the white women could get their act together there are more of us

[01:11:05] so that's just the thing we've got to take them down and and we can do it and that's I mean

[01:11:12] yeah we could talk a whole other podcast about common Harris coming out and just doing all that

[01:11:19] but I feel hope I just know um there are a lot of ignorant and arrogant people I know people like

[01:11:26] my parents are voting for Donald Trump my mom doesn't have a clue like it's there's so there are

[01:11:34] a lot of people out there that don't know and they're voting for them and there are a lot of people who

[01:11:39] do know and are voting for them but I'm encouraged by seeing some people who once supported him

[01:11:45] and they're like yeah I can't do this I can't sell my whole entire soul to the devil like I've got

[01:11:50] I cannot do this so yeah we'll see exciting times to be alive it is and I think you are

[01:12:00] sort of a leader in this exciting time that we're living in because yeah you you're expressing

[01:12:08] all the things that you know are not supposed to be expressed and you're doing it just unabashedly

[01:12:15] and with so much conviction that yeah that's the way forward poem art therapy cathartic word

[01:12:25] crafting after infidelity and divorce is kind of like the book that could lead a revolution

[01:12:33] and yeah let's do it I have my revolution yeah thank thank you so much Scott for giving me this

[01:12:42] thank you for coming back on and sharing your story in your book I like to tell the story

[01:12:48] I think right about when my book was published you sent me the letters fuck ing

[01:12:57] little magnet all right right because he talked about that in your book yeah and uh I had fun

[01:13:12] fucking everything man it's so it's so much but yeah I'm glad we're on the same team and look

[01:13:19] forward to more me too thanks Marla thank you as we settle into the afterglow of this experience

[01:13:33] I hope you have the energy to go that way you can experience all of this over again at any time

[01:13:43] you feel the need as often as you want so thanks to Marla Taviano for coming back on to chapel

[01:13:54] probation I really admire her because she's someone who has actively worked to decolonize race

[01:14:01] let's change the music that's better she has actively worked to decolonize her Christian past and

[01:14:12] patriarchal mindset of that Christian past with things like white girl learning and now this

[01:14:18] and while it sounds like a lot of work and sure it can be it's so rewarding

[01:14:26] spiritually and psychologically orgasmic the whole time Marla was talking about her marriage to her husband

[01:14:35] I was thinking of a song that I wrote and recorded with my band called band motto about 10 years ago

[01:14:42] it's called best thing and the chorus literally says the best thing you ever did for me was walk

[01:14:51] walk away and I wrote that song in honor of several friends who had had kind of ugly breakups

[01:14:59] that were initiated by their significant others that ended up being a good thing hard as it was

[01:15:06] kind of on the nose for this episode and since it's an independent release recorded mixed and

[01:15:12] mastered by all of us well here it is gonna play you band motto performing best thing with

[01:15:20] my pal Patricia Jolly on vocals and harmonica grace humali on drums Dave Galvan on bass

[01:15:27] and me on guitars and lead vocals and we'll just take it out with this so we'll see you all next

[01:15:33] week for another episode of Chapel Probation have a great week

[01:16:50] in front my heart but you made me see that you really set me free

[01:17:09] broken I ain't shatter no I'm not a I only need friends that matter one to share love

[01:17:30] now I know I'm too doomed I'm getting stronger because I'm bound

[01:17:39] the never need this thing you ever did for me was walk away

[01:17:52] and I never needed you ever did for me was walk away

[01:19:26] super my heart would you make me see that you really set me free yeah the best thing you ever did for me

[01:19:39] was walk away super my heart would you make me see that you really set me free