Chapel Probation s4: "Julie" Former EV School Math Teacher Tells All

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[00:01:21] I regret to inform you, you're on Chapel Probation, a podcast that takes a critical look at evangelical colleges and universities, usually.

[00:01:31] And today we have an anonymous guest who taught at an evangelical Christian high school.

[00:01:38] And I'm your host, Scott Okamoto.

[00:01:48] Greetings, reprobates.

[00:01:51] Since season two on Chapel Probation, we've literally been all over the world.

[00:01:57] We've been places here in the U.S. that you would assume to be super conservative and fundamentalist and Christian nationalist and all that.

[00:02:05] And you would be correct in that assumption, generally.

[00:02:09] You know, Bob Jones.

[00:02:12] I think it's one of the Carolinas.

[00:02:14] Sorry.

[00:02:14] I'm from Southern California.

[00:02:16] Most of the states east of the Rockies.

[00:02:18] A little fuzzy.

[00:02:20] We've been in Texas, rural Oregon, the Midwest.

[00:02:24] And yes, the stories from those places are wild.

[00:02:28] But we hear them and a lot of us coastal elites just think, well, of course.

[00:02:35] But if we're being honest, we who live even in liberal, quote unquote, Southern California should not be boastful about our supposed wealth of progressive people.

[00:02:46] In reality, the people of Southern California are just as fucked up as people anywhere.

[00:02:53] There may be a slight majority of folks who vote Democrat.

[00:02:57] But do not be fooled.

[00:03:00] Those same assholes who voted for Schwarzenegger to be governor.

[00:03:04] Those same motherfuckers voted in a landslide for Prop 8, the anti-gay marriage proposition.

[00:03:10] Those same, I'm running out of insulting names, dickheads, voted again by a lot for Prop 187, the show me your papers proposition that, let's face it, was only going to affect brown folks and some Asians.

[00:03:26] Remember, Reagan, not only was the king of B-movies voted in as governor, the people of California, including people of LA, voted for him for president twice.

[00:03:40] I could go on, but I'm already looking at Zillow properties in Mexico.

[00:03:45] So today's guest, who we are calling Julie, because she lives here as a deconstructed person who also teaches in our public schools.

[00:03:58] She has a mom who's a pastor.

[00:04:02] And anyway, Julie is here to tell her story about growing up in this supposed liberal haven of the greater Los Angeles area.

[00:04:11] And her story, which is just as disturbing as many others you've heard here, is not unique for LA.

[00:04:20] No, not by a long shot.

[00:04:23] My name is Julie.

[00:04:24] My pronouns are she, her.

[00:04:26] I grew up as a PK and I spent several years working at a Christian K through 12 school in Southern California.

[00:04:38] Yeah.

[00:04:39] And we're not going to say the name of the school, but I know which school it is.

[00:04:42] And I had a crush on a girl in high school, high school who went to that school.

[00:04:48] And she was a bad, she was a bad girl.

[00:04:51] I also had a crush on a high school kid who went to that school, who went to my,

[00:04:55] Who went to this school.

[00:04:56] Uh huh.

[00:04:56] When, when I was in high school.

[00:04:59] Yeah.

[00:04:59] Yeah.

[00:05:00] Yeah.

[00:05:00] Good, good to clarify.

[00:05:01] Um, yeah.

[00:05:05] Okay.

[00:05:05] And so that's why you're here is to, is that's initially why we started talking is you mentioned

[00:05:11] that you had taught at one of the schools and I always love talking to educators in these

[00:05:16] spaces because it's a unique experience.

[00:05:18] Yeah.

[00:05:19] Um, educationally.

[00:05:21] Um, but let's go back to your childhood and, and so you were a PK.

[00:05:25] Yeah.

[00:05:26] And that's, that's its own.

[00:05:27] It is its own.

[00:05:29] Yeah.

[00:05:29] And I didn't, I guess, I don't know.

[00:05:32] I didn't start out as a PK.

[00:05:34] Um, my mom, um, really started working at the church as a children's pastor.

[00:05:41] Um, and this was the church we grew up in, um, probably when I was about 10 or 11.

[00:05:48] Um, and, but we were always super involved in the church every Sunday, you know, youth groups,

[00:05:55] all that other stuff too.

[00:05:58] Um, but yeah, things, things changed a little bit when she started working there.

[00:06:04] Um, we were homeschooled up until, uh, I was homeschooled up until third grade.

[00:06:10] So that was its own, its own bag of, of treats.

[00:06:17] Um, although only till third grade.

[00:06:21] That's not too bad.

[00:06:22] It's not too bad, but it was definitely an adjustment period.

[00:06:26] I remember just not knowing how to talk to other kids who I wasn't related to.

[00:06:33] I, you know, definitely.

[00:06:35] Oh, so you were in like a group of like relatives.

[00:06:38] Uh huh.

[00:06:38] I mean, not everybody was related to us.

[00:06:40] I had a big family.

[00:06:42] So, um, it's myself and I have three siblings and we're also pretty close.

[00:06:47] Um, but, uh, yeah, it was, you know, we had lots of cousins and things like that who

[00:06:54] were part of the group and then, uh, but yeah.

[00:06:58] Um, yeah.

[00:07:00] So your, your mom taught this group.

[00:07:03] Did she?

[00:07:03] Yeah.

[00:07:04] She was a teacher.

[00:07:05] She was a teacher.

[00:07:05] Yeah.

[00:07:06] So she was our teacher.

[00:07:08] We never like went to, uh, you know, homeschool classes other than, you know, random field trips

[00:07:15] and stuff like that.

[00:07:17] Um, and I mean, like that was pretty cool.

[00:07:20] We would like, you know, decide, you know, drive up to Monterey or whatever and go to the

[00:07:26] aquarium on like a Wednesday and just stay up there as long as my mom can handle it.

[00:07:33] I don't know what the group or whatever.

[00:07:36] Um, but yeah.

[00:07:37] And that was science.

[00:07:38] And that was exactly.

[00:07:40] That's the science lesson after, you know, we talked about the flood and all that kind

[00:07:44] of stuff too.

[00:07:47] Oh, cause that's really the science lesson that we had.

[00:07:50] We got.

[00:07:51] Right.

[00:07:52] The flood of which there is no, uh, archeological records of a flood over the whole.

[00:08:00] Yeah.

[00:08:01] Yeah.

[00:08:02] Wow.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:03] So, um, you know, lots of good memories and lots of weird memories.

[00:08:08] Um, there's some freedom in homeschooling, right?

[00:08:11] Cause you don't have to get up the exact same time every day, like everyone else and pack

[00:08:17] the lunches and, you know, do that whole like mundane routine of getting to school and

[00:08:22] getting through school and, um, coming home.

[00:08:25] Yeah.

[00:08:26] Yeah.

[00:08:26] And, um, when my mom started becoming more involved in the church, my grandma was helping

[00:08:33] out with the homeschool also.

[00:08:35] And she was a former, um, elementary school teacher.

[00:08:38] And I remember her having a conversation with my mom about how behind we all were.

[00:08:46] Cause she could, she could see, she could see.

[00:08:49] And, um, you know, she would get frustrated with me cause I wanted to spend, I don't know,

[00:08:55] 45 minutes on a worksheet that would take, that should take like 15 minutes.

[00:09:00] And, uh, so there, there was a lot of, um, catching up to do once we got to, you know,

[00:09:07] real elementary school.

[00:09:09] Do you remember which, which, uh, curriculum you all used?

[00:09:13] No, I really don't.

[00:09:15] Um, I mean, the kids never know.

[00:09:17] Yeah.

[00:09:17] I mean, I didn't know what text was, but like, I was just wondering if you remember,

[00:09:21] cause most of them are Christian nationalists, uh, publications.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:27] And I think that was, I can't exactly speak for my parents, but I think that was part of

[00:09:34] the reason that they chose to homeschool us.

[00:09:37] Um, is.

[00:09:38] Was there Bible involved in the curriculum?

[00:09:41] Okay.

[00:09:42] There you go.

[00:09:42] So it was one of those.

[00:09:43] Yeah.

[00:09:44] Yeah.

[00:09:45] And, uh, you know, and because I was so little, I don't remember a ton of it, but, uh, I have

[00:09:52] other family members who went, who just kept on going right through middle school and high

[00:09:57] school.

[00:09:58] And, um, yeah, it's a lot.

[00:10:01] And that's a lot on the parent teachers.

[00:10:04] Cause you know, I couldn't teach high school math probably like, yeah.

[00:10:10] And that's where you, yeah.

[00:10:11] That's where you start getting into the like weird unaccredited math classes and stuff like

[00:10:18] that.

[00:10:19] Um, I actually taught at a school, one of my like first sort of teaching jobs, I was teaching

[00:10:25] choir at this little school.

[00:10:28] Um, that my, one of my siblings actually, um, ended up going through after he got kicked

[00:10:33] out of middle school.

[00:10:34] Um, that's another story for another time.

[00:10:38] Um, but, uh, uh, yeah.

[00:10:41] So I taught choir at this school and found out later that the school was completely unaccredited.

[00:10:47] And it was this like, I don't know how many kids, maybe a hundred kids at this tiny little

[00:10:53] school that was at a church that, you know, some friends of ours were running and.

[00:11:00] Was this here in Southern California?

[00:11:02] Yeah.

[00:11:02] Yeah.

[00:11:03] So.

[00:11:04] Wow.

[00:11:04] So even those, I was picturing like a little house on the prairie or something.

[00:11:07] Yeah.

[00:11:08] Um, yeah, no, it's weird.

[00:11:10] The area that, um, I grew up in is it's got some history.

[00:11:17] Um, like, and it, and it still has a lot of people who are, you know, still stuck in their

[00:11:23] ways and that kind of stuff.

[00:11:25] Um, there's a park, uh, a big park, uh, close to, um, my old house or I guess, but anyways, uh, and it was

[00:11:37] a, it's formally called Hindenburg park and yeah.

[00:11:41] And it was like the site, uh, actually it was mentioned in, um, uh, that other podcast, but not the straight white American

[00:11:49] Jesus podcast, but, um, the one he did the series that he did.

[00:11:54] Oh, the orange way.

[00:11:55] Yeah.

[00:11:56] Uh, and it was mentioned.

[00:11:58] And yeah, they, they had like a bunch of white supremacists meetings there.

[00:12:04] And then it was also an internment camp, um, during world war two.

[00:12:09] Oh, right.

[00:12:09] There was like a holding area before they shipped them off to the permanent camps.

[00:12:13] Yeah.

[00:12:13] Okay.

[00:12:13] I think I know where you're talking about.

[00:12:16] That's my family.

[00:12:18] Yeah.

[00:12:19] Yeah.

[00:12:19] So there's, there is some serious dark history.

[00:12:23] Um, yeah.

[00:12:24] I mean, you don't have to go far, even in Southern, even quote unquote liberal Southern California.

[00:12:29] Yeah.

[00:12:30] You don't have to go far to find these places.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:34] And, um, you know, as an adult, I, you know, still am shocked at a place that's supposed to be progressive and, um, you know, have more, more of a head on our shoulder.

[00:12:49] How people really are still stuck in their ways.

[00:12:54] Um, the school district around here had a bunch of, a bunch of protests, um, on the news.

[00:13:03] Uh, I mean, they, they were on the news, but it was in person as well, but, um,

[00:13:07] Oh yeah.

[00:13:07] Recently.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:09] We were talking about this.

[00:13:10] Uh, we hung out a couple of weeks ago.

[00:13:13] Full disclosure.

[00:13:14] Um, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:16] Um, yeah.

[00:13:17] We won't say the city yet.

[00:13:18] No, maybe we will.

[00:13:19] Ah, it doesn't matter.

[00:13:21] Anyway.

[00:13:21] But it's in, but it's in Southern California.

[00:13:23] It's even in LA County.

[00:13:24] Mm hmm.

[00:13:26] And it was like people, uh, protesting against, um, diversity stuff.

[00:13:30] Yeah.

[00:13:31] And specifically probably the gay and trans.

[00:13:33] Yeah.

[00:13:34] Specifically the tram stuff because it, it started around pride month and, and I'm, I'm a suck.

[00:13:41] I'm a glutton for punishment.

[00:13:42] So I like moved all around after, um, after college and stuff like that, but then landed

[00:13:49] right back in this little town that I grew up in.

[00:13:52] Um, and, um, so yeah.

[00:13:54] So during pride month, they had, um, just awful, awful protests and people getting advice and

[00:14:01] all kinds of stuff.

[00:14:03] And so.

[00:14:04] I remember.

[00:14:05] Yeah.

[00:14:06] Yeah.

[00:14:06] We won't say the town because you're too, you're a, you're tied to it.

[00:14:10] And also this could be a lot of places in Southern California.

[00:14:13] Yeah.

[00:14:13] Not just one isolated incident.

[00:14:16] This is happening all over the country, but even in quote unquote liberal California,

[00:14:22] this shit happens.

[00:14:23] And, um, yeah.

[00:14:24] Yeah.

[00:14:25] So, um, anyway, so you, you're now, you get transferred back into mainstream school.

[00:14:32] Yep.

[00:14:33] And how was that?

[00:14:34] It was rough to start out with, but I found some friends and, you know, made it through.

[00:14:40] And then, um, you know, trying to be a good little Christian girl.

[00:14:46] And follow all the rules.

[00:14:48] And.

[00:14:49] Do you invite your friends to church and.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:53] Yeah.

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:54] Outreach ministries.

[00:14:56] Yep.

[00:14:56] All that.

[00:14:57] Evangelistic events.

[00:14:58] Yeah.

[00:14:59] Yeah.

[00:14:59] We had, you know, um, harvest festival and during Halloween.

[00:15:04] And then of course, like the youth group had, uh, like a, not a skate park, but they

[00:15:09] had like ramps and stuff like that for, they would drag out every week.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:15] And, uh.

[00:15:16] Evangelicals love their skating.

[00:15:18] Yeah.

[00:15:18] That's like, I just pictured Jesus on a skateboard saying, yeah, dude, come.

[00:15:23] I mean, he's got the long hair.

[00:15:24] Come hang out.

[00:15:25] Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:25] Yeah.

[00:15:26] He looks like a skater.

[00:15:27] He does.

[00:15:27] He's a surfer Jesus.

[00:15:28] Um, you can hang, hang with Jesus, man.

[00:15:32] Yeah.

[00:15:33] Uh, yeah.

[00:15:34] So, um, I mean, uh, I feel like a lot of, a lot of people have talked about, um, all

[00:15:58] I was kind of a dick sometime, um, about like.

[00:16:02] Yeah.

[00:16:02] You can relate to that.

[00:16:04] Yeah.

[00:16:05] Uh, like there was this one time I went to a sleepover and some of my friends wanted to

[00:16:11] do like light as a feather, stiff as a board.

[00:16:14] I like froze and you know, was like.

[00:16:17] That's inviting demons.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:19] Yeah.

[00:16:20] They definitely joined us.

[00:16:21] Yeah.

[00:16:22] Uh, and they're kind of cool.

[00:16:26] You find out, you know?

[00:16:27] Yeah.

[00:16:28] Yeah.

[00:16:28] You know that dungeons and dragons, like all the, yeah.

[00:16:32] Yeah.

[00:16:33] Demons get a bad rap.

[00:16:34] You know, we were, we were taught to be so afraid of them and, and, uh, they're really

[00:16:37] cool.

[00:16:38] You know, some of them are nice.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:40] Yeah.

[00:16:42] But yeah.

[00:16:43] And then I, after that, I ended up ending those friendships cause I was thinking that

[00:16:49] yeah.

[00:16:50] Yeah.

[00:16:50] Oh, well they're demon infested.

[00:16:52] So yeah, you can't be friends with them.

[00:16:54] Oh, just willy nilly inviting demons in like.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:17:01] Yeah.

[00:17:02] But like, we're laughing, but like.

[00:17:03] It's terrible.

[00:17:05] I had those moments too of like, when I found out like some friends were drinking in junior

[00:17:09] high and drinking alcohol and I was like, oh, I can't be friends with them anymore.

[00:17:13] Yeah.

[00:17:14] Yeah.

[00:17:14] And I was like, I don't know, 15 or whatever.

[00:17:17] And you know, just.

[00:17:19] Cause you're old enough to know that you're taught that all there's consequences to your

[00:17:23] actions and you gotta be this witness to people.

[00:17:26] And, and guess what?

[00:17:27] There's demons everywhere.

[00:17:29] Oh God.

[00:17:29] Just waiting to like.

[00:17:31] Infiltrate your mind.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:33] Yeah.

[00:17:34] I vividly remember this play that the church put on one Sunday and it was like a father,

[00:17:41] son who were in this scene.

[00:17:43] And the scene was all about, um, the kid puts on these like magic glasses, but they're

[00:17:50] not magic.

[00:17:51] Cause you can't have magic in church.

[00:17:52] No.

[00:17:53] And then he sees the like demon warfare that's going on around him.

[00:17:59] And I remember thinking like, really?

[00:18:02] Like even at that time, like that seems intense.

[00:18:05] Like we're in church right now.

[00:18:06] There shouldn't be demons in church.

[00:18:09] And they don't, they don't sell those glasses at the bookstore that I went to.

[00:18:13] So I mean, I would have bought.

[00:18:15] Yeah, definitely.

[00:18:16] Yeah.

[00:18:17] You get to see, you know, I thought of myself as a prayer warrior.

[00:18:21] I was, I was, I wasn't afraid of demons.

[00:18:24] I was like, yeah, I can take them.

[00:18:26] Oh, I definitely, you know, tried to cast out a few demons that I thought were like haunting

[00:18:32] me or something more than once.

[00:18:36] Um, you know, not like where you're like sitting in your room and it's dark or something and

[00:18:42] you see something move or a shadow and you're like in the name of Jesus.

[00:18:46] Um, yeah.

[00:18:47] Yeah.

[00:18:48] So, yeah.

[00:18:51] Yeah.

[00:18:52] So we were, it really did.

[00:18:55] But we were very like, uh, Pentecostal, um, charismatic, not, not as much like dancing

[00:19:01] in the aisle, but, um, you know, and, and my mom was, uh, my mom was ordained, um, in

[00:19:09] that church.

[00:19:10] So.

[00:19:10] Yeah.

[00:19:10] That's the one thing I'll say about the Pentecostals.

[00:19:12] They're a wacky bunch, but they, they let women lead.

[00:19:16] Yeah.

[00:19:17] Unlike like the Southern Baptist convention or the other ones.

[00:19:21] Yeah.

[00:19:22] Yeah.

[00:19:22] So, I mean, there was, there was that and, um, she's still just still doing her thing.

[00:19:28] She's still being a pastor.

[00:19:31] Um, yeah.

[00:19:32] So, you know, I love her and she's actually a very sweet, wonderful person.

[00:19:37] So we're just trying to figure that out, trying to figure out.

[00:19:41] Yeah.

[00:19:42] To both of your credit in that case.

[00:19:43] Yeah.

[00:19:44] Um, cause it's gotta, it's gotta hurt your mom that you are no longer going to church.

[00:19:51] Yeah.

[00:19:52] Yeah.

[00:19:53] Cause that's her, it's her job.

[00:19:54] That's her life.

[00:19:55] Yeah.

[00:19:56] And I, I feel for her in some situations where I'm like, I understand that you sometimes might

[00:20:04] would be worried that my soul is on the line or something.

[00:20:08] Yeah.

[00:20:08] Um, or that my kids soul.

[00:20:11] Cause we used to believe that too.

[00:20:12] Yeah, exactly.

[00:20:13] Yeah.

[00:20:14] So I do have compassion, but at the same time, um, I'm learning how to set those boundaries.

[00:20:22] That's been a theme this fourth season of this podcast is people who have family in a lot

[00:20:28] of cases, parents like you still are in it and navigating that.

[00:20:34] That's, that's so tough.

[00:20:36] Yeah.

[00:20:37] I feel like you've mentioned your folks are still, um, still in it as well.

[00:20:43] Yeah.

[00:20:43] They'll go to Lake Avenue, which is like two blocks from my house.

[00:20:47] Yeah.

[00:20:47] Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:20:49] I mean, we get along good.

[00:20:51] So it's, it's, we try not to talk about it too much cause it doesn't end well.

[00:20:55] Right.

[00:20:56] Right.

[00:20:57] At this point, that's kind of our, our dance.

[00:21:01] It's like a don't ask, don't tell kind of situation for the most part, unless there's

[00:21:06] like family emergency or something.

[00:21:08] And then she'll be asking me to pray for so-and-so.

[00:21:11] Yeah.

[00:21:13] Um, but yeah, I dunno.

[00:21:16] I just kind of, uh, most of the time, unless it's something really awesome.

[00:21:19] I just let it lie.

[00:21:22] Um, but I have like sat down with her and had those serious conversations, especially during

[00:21:29] COVID.

[00:21:30] Like I feel like, um, you know, all the mask stuff and all of the churches, including theirs

[00:21:38] that just were like, no, we're going back.

[00:21:40] Um, and then like my family had like a weird reaction.

[00:21:48] Actually, it's not that weird considering the white nationalist BS of the church, but like

[00:21:54] a weird reaction to everything with black lives matter.

[00:21:58] And even like stuff, like how, um, Disney's because we're in Southern California, like Disney made it a big

[00:22:07] to do to have everybody, you know, trained in whatever they wanted to call it sensitivity training or something like that, which is great.

[00:22:16] Like they, they have a very diverse population of people who go there and work there.

[00:22:24] Yeah.

[00:22:24] And my mom decided.

[00:22:26] Oh, sorry.

[00:22:27] They're very like pro LGBTQ.

[00:22:28] Yeah.

[00:22:30] So yeah, they act like they are.

[00:22:32] Right.

[00:22:33] Right.

[00:22:33] I mean, they're a giant corporation, so, you know, fuck them a little bit, but this was like the last straw for my mom.

[00:22:40] She was like a huge Disney fan for my entire life.

[00:22:44] And then come 2020, she was like, no, I'm done.

[00:22:48] So, you know, they became too woke.

[00:22:51] The world is just shrinking for the Christians.

[00:22:54] It really is.

[00:22:55] You can't, you can't watch certain things, listen to certain things, read certain things.

[00:22:59] Mm-mm.

[00:23:00] Yeah.

[00:23:01] So, all right.

[00:23:03] So we'll get to, so you, you went all the way through high school and public school.

[00:23:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:09] And you, where did you go to college?

[00:23:12] Um, I started out at a community college in Pasadena.

[00:23:17] So good old PCC.

[00:23:19] Um, and then, um, went down to, um, Cal State Fullerton.

[00:23:24] Oh, nice.

[00:23:25] Yeah.

[00:23:26] And, um, I was still living at home while I was going to PCC.

[00:23:29] And so I was still very much like involved in the youth group and being a youth leader and like that whole bunch.

[00:23:38] And then when you went to Cal State Fullerton?

[00:23:40] I, I tried for, I don't know, a month.

[00:23:45] I then realized that, uh, that I just, I just needed to just blow off some steam.

[00:23:53] And yeah.

[00:23:55] Uh, and it was great.

[00:23:57] I had a really fantastic time.

[00:23:59] You didn't feel guilty?

[00:24:00] I definitely felt guilty.

[00:24:03] Oh, okay.

[00:24:03] But.

[00:24:04] That does kind of make it more fun too.

[00:24:06] Yeah.

[00:24:06] You know, more taboo.

[00:24:07] Yeah.

[00:24:08] Um, so is it the whole thing?

[00:24:10] Sex, drugs, and rock and roll?

[00:24:11] Kind of like the whole.

[00:24:13] Yeah.

[00:24:13] Yeah.

[00:24:13] So there was like a whole thing when I was still at home, uh, when I was in my early twenties where I lost my virginity to my first boyfriend.

[00:24:25] And it ended up being this whole awful thing with the church because I was like youth leader and I had to like confess my sins to a bunch of people.

[00:24:36] Well, you didn't have to, but you were a good kid.

[00:24:40] I was, yeah, I was a rule follower.

[00:24:43] Exactly.

[00:24:43] Because you know, there were other people that were fucking and not confessing it.

[00:24:49] I was so innocent at the time.

[00:24:51] Honestly, I was thinking like, no, no, no, no, nobody, nobody else is.

[00:24:55] You're the only one.

[00:24:56] This is just me.

[00:24:58] Yeah.

[00:24:59] Um, but yeah, that was all, that was like really dramatic.

[00:25:02] It was.

[00:25:03] Yeah, no.

[00:25:04] So you had to confess like publicly, right?

[00:25:07] To.

[00:25:08] To the.

[00:25:08] Yeah.

[00:25:09] I had to like, I didn't have to like stand up in front of everybody, but I had to like

[00:25:13] confess to my parents, which is.

[00:25:16] Weird.

[00:25:16] So weird.

[00:25:17] Yeah.

[00:25:18] And the pastor and my siblings and like the youth leadership.

[00:25:23] And I had to take like a break from that.

[00:25:27] And it was, it very much felt like I was like Hester prim and you know, wearing my big a big scarlet.

[00:25:35] Yeah.

[00:25:36] Um, that's we teachers know this reference.

[00:25:40] Yeah.

[00:25:43] Um, and, uh, yeah.

[00:25:45] So once I got past that and got into college and had a little bit more freedom on my own, I honestly was like, well, I already lost my virginity.

[00:25:56] So who cares?

[00:25:58] Yeah.

[00:25:58] And yeah.

[00:25:59] I mean, did they want you to like confess every time you had sex?

[00:26:03] Um, I had only done it the one time and then I felt so incredibly guilty.

[00:26:09] Like this is me and my guilty conscience.

[00:26:12] Yeah.

[00:26:13] Um, I get that.

[00:26:14] It wasn't like, like next week you're like, um, I did it again.

[00:26:18] Um, cause we of course had to break up and we kind of know what you're going to say.

[00:26:28] Yeah.

[00:26:29] Thankfully.

[00:26:29] Yeah.

[00:26:29] So like once I was at down in North County, I was like on my own and I didn't, I, you know, I visited for holidays and occasionally in the

[00:26:39] weekends and stuff, but I really had my own thing going and like, I don't want to get too spicy, but like, I really wanted to have sex at this point.

[00:26:52] At this point I was like, I've already done it.

[00:26:55] I like waited all of high school.

[00:26:59] I really didn't date, like just didn't date people.

[00:27:03] And I was just like, I was just ready.

[00:27:06] And so.

[00:27:07] Yeah.

[00:27:08] I mean, that's such a natural state stage of development.

[00:27:12] Early 20 something.

[00:27:14] Yeah.

[00:27:15] Human.

[00:27:15] Right.

[00:27:16] But the, you know, the church makes it sound like, especially cause you're a woman that it's some kind of deviant behavior.

[00:27:22] Yeah.

[00:27:23] Right.

[00:27:23] Yeah.

[00:27:23] And I honestly wish through that whole thing, that one person had just like pulled me aside and been like, this is not a big deal.

[00:27:32] Yeah.

[00:27:33] You don't have to keep like beating yourself up over this.

[00:27:38] Um, you can move on.

[00:27:40] Um, and, um, I, and in a sense, that's what I did when I went to college.

[00:27:47] I like tried to move on and sometimes maybe not in the healthiest ways, but I had some good times.

[00:27:55] Yeah.

[00:27:56] Yeah.

[00:27:56] All right.

[00:27:57] At this, when you're in Orange County, are you looking for a church to go to?

[00:28:00] Or are you just kind of, I tried out?

[00:28:02] I tried for a little while and I kind of looked at it as like, this is my rebellious phase.

[00:28:07] And then when I'm an adult, I'm going to come back and be.

[00:28:11] That's common.

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:14] So, um, so it was fun.

[00:28:16] And I had like a good group of people there and.

[00:28:20] Yeah, that's good.

[00:28:21] Yeah.

[00:28:25] Imagine being in your early twenties in Southern California and being ashamed for wanting to have sex and explore your sexuality.

[00:28:35] Well, actually knowing all of you, my audience and myself, I'm guessing you don't have to imagine this.

[00:28:43] Most of you listening don't have to imagine this.

[00:28:47] You lived it or you got married young and probably had terrible sex.

[00:28:53] I hope, I hope that's not you, but the purity culture damage to our identities is real.

[00:29:00] Even as it doesn't make sense at all to people outside of it.

[00:29:04] And again, we're not talking about the deep South or Idaho.

[00:29:08] We're talking about Southern California.

[00:29:10] And of course, a girl's or woman's virginity is the most valuable thing that they can ever have.

[00:29:18] And it's not even a real thing.

[00:29:21] You don't even have to be in evangelical culture to be misinformed about the myths of virginity and the hymen.

[00:29:28] We'll actually be talking about this in an upis, an upcoming episode of the horny chapel.

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:35] Patriarchy real thing.

[00:29:37] And it fucking sucks.

[00:29:41] Then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smacked one night.

[00:29:49] And then she seeks help from the church.

[00:29:50] There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus.

[00:29:54] And by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.

[00:29:57] You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus.

[00:29:59] Those are the options.

[00:30:00] There's nothing holy about writing discrimination into the law.

[00:30:05] And I am tired of communities of faith being weaponized because the only time religious freedom is invoked is in the name of bigotry and discrimination.

[00:30:16] I'm tired of it.

[00:30:18] I'm Nate.

[00:30:19] Producer and co-host on the full mutuality podcast.

[00:30:23] Let's talk about inequality.

[00:30:25] It's everywhere.

[00:30:26] Whether it's rooted in race, gender, ability, or sexuality, there's bound to be an imbalance in power, influence, representation, and access.

[00:30:33] On our show, we want to explore areas of religion, culture, and society where justice is needed in order to bring about true mutuality.

[00:30:42] I hope you'll join us for some enlightening, fun, and at times uncomfortable conversations as we envision a world where everyone can live free from systems and structures that keep us from being truly equal.

[00:30:53] You can find us on your favorite podcast app or visit our website fullmutuality.com to find a list of all the platforms we're available on.

[00:31:02] Subscribe today and we'll see you on the full mutuality podcast.

[00:31:05] And then, like, after college, get my teaching credential.

[00:31:15] I taught for a very short time in Northern California and then landed myself at this Christian K-12 school.

[00:31:26] Christian K-12 school, which was, I'm guessing, a beacon of educational excellence and academic rigor.

[00:31:37] For sure.

[00:31:39] For sure.

[00:31:39] And I don't want to throw too much shade on my fellow teachers, but I felt like the subject I was teaching that I definitely could have held my students to a higher standard.

[00:31:53] If, number one, I wasn't such a baby little teacher and I didn't know what the hell I was doing.

[00:31:58] Just starting out.

[00:31:59] Right.

[00:31:59] And number two, the kids wouldn't just instantly run to their deans or complain, you know.

[00:32:07] Or parents.

[00:32:07] Or parents, yeah.

[00:32:08] Yeah.

[00:32:09] The paying customers.

[00:32:10] Yeah.

[00:32:11] Yeah.

[00:32:11] And that, unfortunately, really came across to me in my time there.

[00:32:18] It was very clear that, like, I need to make these children happy because if I don't make the children happy, then the parents are happy.

[00:32:26] And if the parents are happy, then I'm screwed.

[00:32:28] And they take their money somewhere else.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:31] So, was there a curriculum?

[00:32:34] Are you comfortable saying what you were teaching?

[00:32:36] Oh, yeah.

[00:32:37] No, it's okay.

[00:32:37] I was teaching math.

[00:32:39] Okay.

[00:32:40] So, luckily, like, in math, in the curriculum itself, there's nothing that you're going to be teaching necessarily, or is there, that would get you in trouble with a fundamentalist Christian?

[00:32:53] Thankfully.

[00:32:53] You're using the number six way too much.

[00:32:56] Yeah.

[00:32:57] No, no answers.

[00:32:58] You're going to bring the demons in.

[00:32:59] Yeah.

[00:32:59] No answers were at 69 or 420 or, you know, even to this day, like...

[00:33:07] Wait, was that really a rule?

[00:33:08] No, that wasn't a rule, but that was my rule.

[00:33:12] See, that's how...

[00:33:13] Okay, so you were thinking this.

[00:33:14] Yeah.

[00:33:15] Because that's...

[00:33:16] I would...

[00:33:16] If you had said that's a rule, I would have believed it.

[00:33:18] Just hearing all the stories.

[00:33:19] Right.

[00:33:21] Already.

[00:33:22] Right.

[00:33:22] Yeah.

[00:33:23] But it was your rule.

[00:33:24] Right.

[00:33:25] It was my rule.

[00:33:25] I'll just to keep, you know, keep order in the classroom because a bunch of, you know, 16 year olds, if you say 420, they're going to...

[00:33:32] Oh God.

[00:33:32] No matter if they're in a Christian school, they're going to start fiddling.

[00:33:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:33:36] No, that's just good practice for teaching this school of any stripe.

[00:33:41] Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:42] But was there pressure from the administration to proselytize or to make math relatable to, like, a Bible lesson or idea?

[00:33:56] Yes and no.

[00:33:58] It was very indirect.

[00:34:00] Like, we had to be really good examples and...

[00:34:05] Okay, in like your personal life.

[00:34:07] In our personal life.

[00:34:08] And of course, you know, we had to go to chapel every week with the kids.

[00:34:13] Oh, they made the teachers go to chapel?

[00:34:15] Uh-huh.

[00:34:15] That's...

[00:34:16] That's fucked up.

[00:34:17] It's cruel.

[00:34:18] It was cruel sometimes.

[00:34:21] Sometimes they would have, like, decent speakers, but a lot of the times I was like, you guys just planned this like 15 minutes ago.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:28] Well, there's a lot of...

[00:34:28] Was it every day or three times a week?

[00:34:31] It was every week, once a week on...

[00:34:33] Once a week.

[00:34:34] Yeah, once a week.

[00:34:35] And then they, of course, had, you know, their Bible classes and that kind of stuff, too.

[00:34:40] I didn't have to go to those.

[00:34:44] Some of the Bible teachers were actually really nice people.

[00:34:47] So I don't want to completely throw them under the bus, but...

[00:34:51] Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:53] But yeah, like, it was very much unspoken that you were, you know, mentors to the kids, which as a high school teacher, you are.

[00:35:04] Yeah, you kind of are.

[00:35:05] You wear a lot of hats at that age.

[00:35:07] Yeah.

[00:35:09] And, but, you know, you had to be the right kind of mentor.

[00:35:14] Like at the time, I was essentially living with my now about then boyfriend.

[00:35:24] And, you know, it was very much like, if anybody were to find out that that was the case, I'm sure I would have, at the very least, had some sort of penalty possibly been fired.

[00:35:37] Yeah.

[00:35:40] And...

[00:35:41] It does happen.

[00:35:42] Yeah.

[00:35:43] Yeah.

[00:35:45] And, like, I actually, you know, at this point, like I mentioned, I was trying to, I don't know, redeem myself somehow.

[00:35:55] I was still like really stuck in the mentality of, you know, I have to be a part of the church.

[00:36:03] I really have to make this work.

[00:36:06] Yeah.

[00:36:06] This is the right way.

[00:36:07] So you had your time in the desert and now you're coming back to be the Christian person you're meant to be.

[00:36:14] Right.

[00:36:15] Right.

[00:36:16] Wow.

[00:36:16] And yeah, and so I was really, I was really trying.

[00:36:19] I like...

[00:36:21] Although you were living in sin.

[00:36:22] I was.

[00:36:23] Again, the demons.

[00:36:24] Yeah.

[00:36:25] So...

[00:36:26] Just inviting them in.

[00:36:27] They were there and clearly it worked because here I am right now.

[00:36:32] Still.

[00:36:33] Yeah.

[00:36:34] And the demon.

[00:36:37] Yeah.

[00:36:38] But yeah.

[00:36:40] Yeah.

[00:36:41] So I, I like participated in some of their missions trip.

[00:36:45] Like they, they partnered with APU for some of their mission trip.

[00:36:49] Um, I every week or not every week, every year.

[00:36:56] Um, the faculty was required to give some sort of, um, like morning Bible study.

[00:37:02] It was like a once a week thing, but it would rotate which teacher had to do it every week.

[00:37:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:09] And so once a year, you had to like make your own Bible study and like present it to the rest of the faculty that wanted to show up at 730 or whatever the hell time it was.

[00:37:21] And, um, you know, have this like meaningful experience for everybody.

[00:37:28] And for me, I w I was so bad at that.

[00:37:31] Like I was not, that was not my forte to, you know, come up with a meaningful reason behind whatever verses I happen to just be like bending through my Bible and putting my finger on.

[00:37:46] And at that moment, um, I can just picture this.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:52] It was.

[00:37:53] So are you just like talking out of your ass then?

[00:37:56] Yeah, pretty much.

[00:37:58] Um, so I mean, but I actually tried, I was terrible at that part, but you were in good faith trying to do it.

[00:38:06] Okay.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] But it was, it was very much like, I, I never went to seminary.

[00:38:12] I mean, I was, I was raised in the church.

[00:38:14] Like if you give me, Hey, we want to talk about like this subject.

[00:38:18] Sure.

[00:38:19] I can, you know, do my, do my due diligence and search up whatever.

[00:38:24] But if you're just like, Hey, give a talk on whatever you want to talk about.

[00:38:29] It's too much, too much.

[00:38:31] Um, free, like not enough structure.

[00:38:35] Okay.

[00:38:36] Like as a math teacher, I need rules.

[00:38:38] Give me, give me rules.

[00:38:39] I was going to say, yeah, I was trying to think like a math related lesson.

[00:38:46] Yeah.

[00:38:47] Oh, and other math teachers really did try that.

[00:38:50] And it was also.

[00:38:51] Yeah.

[00:38:52] Yeah.

[00:38:52] That would be cringy, right?

[00:38:54] Yeah.

[00:38:56] The biblical truth of like cubits.

[00:38:59] Um, or.

[00:39:01] Yeah.

[00:39:02] Yeah.

[00:39:03] Like trying to all that analysis.

[00:39:05] I don't know if you remember this.

[00:39:06] This is one of those random things that's stuck in the back of my brain somewhere.

[00:39:11] I felt like every pastor had a lesson where they were trying to explain how big the arc actually was.

[00:39:19] Yeah.

[00:39:20] Yeah.

[00:39:20] And how it could actually fit every animal on earth.

[00:39:25] Yeah.

[00:39:26] And potentially some dinosaurs.

[00:39:28] Possibly some dinosaurs.

[00:39:31] Depending on if you follow Ken Ham.

[00:39:33] Yeah.

[00:39:34] Yeah.

[00:39:35] Oh, my dad.

[00:39:36] I don't know if it was that book, but.

[00:39:39] Within the last decade, my dad showed me some book that had like dinosaurs and people in it.

[00:39:46] And he was like trying to show me like, see, this is, you know, people were around when the dinosaurs were around.

[00:39:52] He was trying to show that as evidence.

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:55] Yeah.

[00:39:55] It's like, these are drawings.

[00:39:57] Yeah.

[00:39:57] People can draw things.

[00:39:59] It doesn't make them real.

[00:40:00] But you're inspired by the Holy Spirit drawings.

[00:40:02] True.

[00:40:02] So.

[00:40:02] Yeah.

[00:40:03] The Creation Museum has dinosaurs in the, in the Garden of Eden.

[00:40:09] Yeah.

[00:40:10] And so, so when Eve ate the fruit, it made the dinosaurs carnivores is I think.

[00:40:16] Whoa.

[00:40:16] The lesson they teach.

[00:40:18] I have a very strong, morbid curiosity about that place.

[00:40:24] I don't want to give that place any of my money.

[00:40:26] No, but I kind of want to go.

[00:40:27] Yeah.

[00:40:28] There's a group of us.

[00:40:29] You want to come?

[00:40:30] If we.

[00:40:31] Yeah.

[00:40:31] Let me know.

[00:40:32] No.

[00:40:32] Cause I want to do the Ark experience and the Creation Museum's like an hour away or

[00:40:38] something.

[00:40:38] So.

[00:40:39] Yeah.

[00:40:40] And that.

[00:40:40] I have to go to Kentucky.

[00:40:41] I think it's Kentucky.

[00:40:43] I think so.

[00:40:44] And, um, that giant place that does like a Jesus story, like a really like.

[00:40:51] Oh, right.

[00:40:52] Yeah.

[00:40:52] Crucifixions.

[00:40:53] I think that's in like one of the Carolinas.

[00:40:55] Okay.

[00:40:56] Yeah.

[00:40:57] So that's a little further, but.

[00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:00] Um, on a road trip someday.

[00:41:03] But we're in California.

[00:41:04] Everything east of the Rockies is all kind of the same to us.

[00:41:07] So, you know.

[00:41:08] Right.

[00:41:08] Since we're over there, we just might as well swing by and watch Jesus get crucified.

[00:41:14] Just make it round out the whole story.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:17] Yeah.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:18] All right.

[00:41:19] Well, maybe we'll put some together.

[00:41:20] Yeah.

[00:41:21] Um, all right.

[00:41:23] So the, the school you're at.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:25] Is controlling.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:27] You would have been fired if they found out you were living in, I guess, partial sin,

[00:41:33] not full.

[00:41:33] Yeah.

[00:41:34] Um, but, um, at, was there anything about that experience that made you deconstruct or were

[00:41:43] there, were there points along the way?

[00:41:46] Um, yes.

[00:41:49] Um, there was a lot of inconsistencies I saw already, you know, this was pre 2016.

[00:42:00] So I got out of there right before, uh, right before the election, actually.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:08] Um, wait, what happened in 2016?

[00:42:10] I'm trying to remember.

[00:42:12] It was, it was a fascinating year in history.

[00:42:15] Block that out.

[00:42:16] Yeah.

[00:42:16] Yeah.

[00:42:18] Um, but yeah, uh, I could already just see just in terms of, of the expectation for what

[00:42:28] I was supposed to be in the classroom and then what responsibility, what we were allowed

[00:42:38] to hold the kids responsible for.

[00:42:41] Um, and as well as like, just, you know, odd comments and odd theology, um, right after,

[00:42:53] um, uh, same sex marriage was approved in 2015, we had this big faculty meeting specifically

[00:43:05] to discuss how, um, we weren't going to hire any queer people.

[00:43:10] And it was very much like, you know, I hate that we're having this meeting.

[00:43:16] Um, but why, why do you need to come out right and say it to us?

[00:43:23] Like, are you threatening us if any of us are in the closet?

[00:43:27] Like, does that mean that our job is on the line?

[00:43:30] Like, yeah.

[00:43:32] And it was, yeah, it was.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:35] Um, because there's no way they were going to hire an openly gay person anyway.

[00:43:40] Yeah.

[00:43:40] Right.

[00:43:41] Knowing the school that I, as I do.

[00:43:43] Yeah.

[00:43:43] There's no way if someone during the interview process was like wearing like a pride shirt

[00:43:49] and talked about their same sex partner.

[00:43:53] Yeah.

[00:43:54] Yeah.

[00:43:54] We'll get back to you.

[00:43:56] Right.

[00:43:57] Right.

[00:43:58] And I also, to be fair to anyone else, I mean, I don't know their spiritual experience,

[00:44:04] but I, it was not like the best spiritual experience there.

[00:44:09] So I, I don't think queer folks would have even felt welcomed.

[00:44:13] Um, you know, even if, even if they somehow, um, you know, got it out of their bigoted mind

[00:44:21] to, to figure out that, you know, Jesus loves everybody.

[00:44:29] Um, so hard to picture.

[00:44:33] Um, but, uh, yeah, so, so they were very clearly like every other evangelical church, um, you know, with some exception, um, not, not welcoming to queer folks.

[00:44:49] And they were just kind of making like declaring to the world, right.

[00:44:54] That this is our value, even though it was really not an issue in danger of actually happening.

[00:45:01] But yeah, it felt like at the time that churches, not just your school, but churches were trying to say, this is our stance on this.

[00:45:10] And we are, we are, we are Bible believing, you know, people.

[00:45:15] And so.

[00:45:16] Yeah.

[00:45:16] Yeah.

[00:45:17] It very much felt political.

[00:45:19] Yeah.

[00:45:20] And, um, and yeah.

[00:45:23] And then the school, you know, prides itself on the fact that, um, they, they say that they're non-denominational.

[00:45:32] And so they tried not to be political.

[00:45:35] Um, and so it, I, yeah, it like that felt gross.

[00:45:41] Um, and I already had one foot out the door.

[00:45:44] I just had, you know, had had enough of, um, really not feeling supported as a teacher.

[00:45:53] And, you know, even though I had students there that I really, really cared about and, um, and I, and I, and I, I was very, very much.

[00:46:02] And I had like friends there.

[00:46:03] I had, um, other teachers that I also cared about and people that I, you know, would actually hang out with outside of school.

[00:46:11] But, um, those people definitely tended more on, tended, tended to felt, feel more kind of on the outskirts of the, like hyper religious folks.

[00:46:27] And yeah.

[00:46:29] Like, you know, we would go out.

[00:46:30] It's interesting how there's always that crowd, even in the most restrictive fundamentalist environment.

[00:46:36] Yeah.

[00:46:36] There's always a few people you find that are like not buying a hundred percent into it.

[00:46:41] Yeah.

[00:46:42] Yeah.

[00:46:43] And you know, like other, other people would say weird things sometimes that I was just like, this is not, this is not biblical or maybe it is biblical, but are you like, you're taking it, you know, quite literal.

[00:46:56] And literal to the extent.

[00:46:58] I mean, we've talked a lot about Noah's Ark.

[00:47:00] I had once had another faculty member tell me that they didn't trust the biology teacher because the biology teacher didn't believe that the flood covered the whole earth.

[00:47:14] And this was like her cross to die on that or hill to die on or whatever you call it.

[00:47:20] Oh yeah.

[00:47:21] And you pull that thread out and who knows what else is coming with it.

[00:47:25] Right.

[00:47:27] Yeah.

[00:47:28] Yeah.

[00:47:29] And, uh, I mean, yeah, there was, there was just, there, there was a lot there and, um, I just, I just really felt like I, I needed to be done.

[00:47:42] Um, but I, I really feel like my deconstruction, if that's, I don't know if I want to call it that, but like my.

[00:47:51] I mean, it's a good word because it implies a process in, in, in, in, there's different stages and.

[00:47:57] Yeah.

[00:47:57] And, and you are sort of pulling apart the, the mechanisms that kind of held us in.

[00:48:02] Um, and so.

[00:48:03] Yeah.

[00:48:04] I'll allow it.

[00:48:08] Thanks God.

[00:48:09] However you want to use it.

[00:48:13] Um, but yeah, I feel like it kind of started there and then, um, once 2020 hit and things just completely fell apart.

[00:48:25] Um, I feel like that was really when I started examining, um, my, just, just my, my perspective as well as my, um, accountability.

[00:48:41] To, to all of this as well, because I, I was a silent participator in a lot of things that probably caused people harm that.

[00:48:55] I still, to this day, don't necessarily know about.

[00:48:59] And some of it, I'm sure that I do.

[00:49:02] And, um, yeah.

[00:49:05] So I think at that point, I think that's true for probably a lot of people.

[00:49:11] Um, where.

[00:49:12] If they're deconstructing it right, I think that's true.

[00:49:15] Yeah.

[00:49:16] Because if we're, if you're that deep in it as you and I were.

[00:49:19] Yeah.

[00:49:19] We, we believe some pretty rigid, unkind things about people's identities and people's lifestyles.

[00:49:28] And probably inserted ourselves into some conversations in very unkind ways.

[00:49:34] Yeah.

[00:49:35] Yeah.

[00:49:36] I, I definitely have memories of saying shit to like classmates or people in marching band.

[00:49:44] Yeah.

[00:49:45] Yeah.

[00:49:45] Yeah.

[00:49:46] And I, I think, um, like even in, even in small ways, um, I just, I feel that I, I still

[00:49:55] need to recognize like being complicit in, in like, you know, the, all of the crazy racist

[00:50:03] shit that, um, that people would say and sexist shit that people would say.

[00:50:11] And I didn't feel it, you know, I didn't feel comfortable speaking out.

[00:50:17] Right.

[00:50:18] And, or, or.

[00:50:19] It's not fun.

[00:50:19] No.

[00:50:20] You know, to have to go against the grain.

[00:50:22] Right.

[00:50:23] Yeah.

[00:50:24] Yeah.

[00:50:25] Yeah.

[00:50:26] And, and as well as the fact that it's all in my head, it's still not as bad as it used

[00:50:34] to be, but like the, the, the sexism and that kind of stuff where it's like, I'm, I'm

[00:50:40] supposed to be that quiet, demure, you know, woman.

[00:50:46] Um, and I'm supposed to like, listen and not speak out.

[00:50:53] Um, I'm supposed to let, even though my mom was a pastor, like she would always say, you

[00:50:58] know, your dad is the head of the household.

[00:51:00] And it really, even to this day does not, that's not the case.

[00:51:05] Um, but that was so much drilled into, uh, um, as well as just like, and this is going

[00:51:14] to sound weird to say, but like, be kind to people, but to the nth degree.

[00:51:20] So even when someone is saying something awful, you're still supposed to be kind to that person

[00:51:26] who's saying something awful and not make them feel bad about whatever awful thing that

[00:51:32] they just said.

[00:51:34] Um, although there's parameters for that, right?

[00:51:38] Cause I get, I totally get what you're saying.

[00:51:40] If someone's saying something racist, you're supposed to show grace.

[00:51:43] Yeah.

[00:51:44] And forgiveness.

[00:51:44] Right.

[00:51:45] But if they're saying like something blasphemous, um, then your, your job is to correct them

[00:51:52] in love, right?

[00:51:53] Like in the spirit.

[00:51:55] Right.

[00:51:56] Saying maybe gay, maybe being gay isn't a sin.

[00:51:59] And then you, you, you'll see there's not a lot of grace that happens when you lob that

[00:52:04] grenade into a crowd of, uh, evangelicals.

[00:52:07] Yeah.

[00:52:09] Yeah, for sure.

[00:52:10] And, um, you know, maybe it's not the woman's fault.

[00:52:15] Maybe like, yeah, you know, maybe women can dress however they want to dress.

[00:52:20] No, you go too far.

[00:52:24] I need to pray.

[00:52:26] Yeah.

[00:52:27] Um, so you're seeing all of this, right.

[00:52:29] And you're in, I feel like you're, you're, you're growing older or you're maturing.

[00:52:34] You're coming into your own as a person, right?

[00:52:38] Cause now you're in your like late twenties, right?

[00:52:41] Yeah.

[00:52:42] Yeah.

[00:52:42] So, um, cortex.

[00:52:46] And, um, but you're starting to, to see the, the, the holes in, in the people's logic and

[00:52:54] theology and culture even.

[00:52:57] Yeah.

[00:52:58] Yeah.

[00:52:59] And to your credit, you, you like start to look for the exit.

[00:53:03] Yeah.

[00:53:04] Yeah.

[00:53:04] Yeah.

[00:53:04] So I found, um, I found a different job.

[00:53:07] Um, and then eventually of course, like married my spouse and, um, we had a kid and.

[00:53:14] And he does not have a religious, the same religious background.

[00:53:18] No, no, we have, you know, different types of trauma.

[00:53:22] Mine is religious trauma.

[00:53:23] His is other.

[00:53:24] Uh, but yeah.

[00:53:27] Life is trauma.

[00:53:29] Um, yeah.

[00:53:30] You know, trauma bonding.

[00:53:31] It's, it's perfect way to meet your, uh, meet your spouse.

[00:53:34] No, I, even about that kind of stuff.

[00:53:37] Like I, like when I think about some of the shit that I said, sometimes I was at one of

[00:53:45] these, uh, like while I was still working at this school, I was at this on this mission

[00:53:51] trip and we were, of course having, you know, the campfire experience where everybody, you

[00:53:57] know, things, the cheesy campfire songs.

[00:54:01] And then, you know, we all have to confess our sins or whatever.

[00:54:04] Oh yeah.

[00:54:06] And, um, it, it very much was just like, this is camp.

[00:54:10] This is not, we're, we're not on a mission trip to help people.

[00:54:14] Although that's what we say we're doing.

[00:54:15] We're just going to a different location and having camp at a different location.

[00:54:22] Um, and, uh, so I, I got up cause I was having an emotional moment and this is while

[00:54:28] I was dating, um, my spouse and I like broke down in tears because, you know, he wasn't

[00:54:36] a Christian and I felt so guilty and I was just like, don't fall in love with somebody

[00:54:42] who's not a Christian.

[00:54:43] And like tears coming down.

[00:54:46] Unequally yoked.

[00:54:49] That's the term, right?

[00:54:51] Yeah.

[00:54:52] We need to, we need to come up with a name for your, your partner.

[00:54:56] Um, uh, let's see, Jim.

[00:55:01] Jim.

[00:55:02] Got it.

[00:55:03] Yeah.

[00:55:04] Is that good?

[00:55:04] Cause I almost said his real name.

[00:55:07] Caught myself.

[00:55:10] Um, so, but yeah, I mean,

[00:55:16] uh, but Jim ended up being like really the best thing for me because as so many people on your

[00:55:25] podcast have talked about, it is super helpful to have someone else who is outside of the church

[00:55:32] your, all of your crazy stories and be like, they're horrified.

[00:55:39] Like that's not normal.

[00:55:41] Like when I told him the story about how I lost my virginity, he was like, this is not healthy.

[00:55:47] Like you need therapy.

[00:55:49] Oh.

[00:55:49] And that was, that was actually one of the most helpful things is, um, right after I started working

[00:55:55] at the school, I started, uh, therapy and.

[00:55:59] At the Christian school?

[00:56:00] When you started there?

[00:56:01] Yeah.

[00:56:02] Right.

[00:56:02] When I started at the Christian school, I also simultaneously happened to be doing therapy

[00:56:06] and granted, I was still trying to do Christian therapy.

[00:56:10] I was doing it at, uh, fuller.

[00:56:13] So they have like discounted prices.

[00:56:15] If you, um, have students do therapy for you, but it was, it was really, really helpful to,

[00:56:27] uh, I ended up with a really fantastic there.

[00:56:30] Um, excuse me.

[00:56:33] Um, and it really helped me work through, um, not as much as the like religious trauma, but.

[00:56:44] Uh, cause I think, I still feel like, um, well, I guess it did somewhat help me with the

[00:56:49] religious trauma, but.

[00:56:51] Yeah.

[00:56:51] I don't know that I had the words at the time to kind of say that phrase.

[00:56:56] Like I have religious trauma.

[00:56:58] Yeah.

[00:56:59] Um,

[00:57:00] but it helped me really figure out, um, what kind of like relationships I really wanted to

[00:57:10] have, like, not just like, um, romantic relationships, but also friendships.

[00:57:16] Um, because I mean, like I mentioned earlier, I did not have healthy boundaries whatsoever.

[00:57:25] Um, I felt like I had to, you know, abandon.

[00:57:30] I didn't have any friends if they participated in some silly game.

[00:57:35] Um, and I still kind of took that with me to other extents, not so much with like the Jesus-y

[00:57:42] aspect of it.

[00:57:43] Um, but like, um, but yeah, just, just kind of like figuring shit out.

[00:57:51] Like that was, that was super great.

[00:57:55] Um, and then, you know, trying to start like figuring out family stuff.

[00:58:00] Um, and, and I've been, I've, I've been in therapy pretty much ever since.

[00:58:06] Um, and that has been, um, and that has been pretty, pretty awesome.

[00:58:13] Now we're going to get to the family stuff, um, toward the end of this.

[00:58:19] And Julie has a lot to share about that, but I want to circle back to the, uh, purity culture

[00:58:43] who was an acclaimed playwright and writer, uh, was hired by the APU forensics team to be a coach.

[00:58:51] Now this was a club that went to like argument contests.

[00:58:55] Uh, and, and he was, my neighbor was great at it, uh, helping mostly clueless kids who

[00:59:01] are prone to fear of logic, um, helping them to win arguments, you know, in competitions.

[00:59:08] But one of the other coaches on the team somehow found out he was living with his fiance,

[00:59:17] uh, also my neighbor.

[00:59:19] That's kind of how it works.

[00:59:21] And the school, uh, fired him for this.

[00:59:27] And now they were both marginally Catholic.

[00:59:30] I guess that's how he got hired.

[00:59:33] Uh, you could say he believed in Jesus cause that's, it's a whole thing.

[00:59:37] Um, but yeah, they were, they were so heartbroken over this whole thing and feeling judged by this

[00:59:46] crappy school.

[00:59:48] I mean, they were, they were wondering what the hell's a matter with a place like APU.

[00:59:53] And I think I had warned them about the culture, but it probably just sounded like me being

[00:59:59] like paranoid or overreacting just cause I was having a hard time.

[01:00:04] But in truth, many, many staff and probably some faculty, but I know of several staff people

[01:00:11] who were fired.

[01:00:12] Oh, to actually take that back.

[01:00:13] I know some adjuncts who were let go because people found out they were living in sin.

[01:00:19] Co-habitating.

[01:00:21] Co-habitating.

[01:00:21] And it's an odd line to draw for a school like APU or the school that, uh, truly taught

[01:00:27] at.

[01:00:29] Because if you knew what kinds of, uh, well, how should I say this?

[01:00:34] Interesting lifestyles professors and teachers, teachers were living that weren't as obvious

[01:00:41] as co-habitation.

[01:00:43] You might be shocked.

[01:00:44] I don't know.

[01:00:45] Maybe you wouldn't.

[01:00:46] I know professors.

[01:00:48] I'm not going to name names.

[01:00:50] I know professors at APU who were active swingers.

[01:00:53] Yeah.

[01:00:54] I'm not talking about the playground.

[01:00:56] I'm talking about they were fucking other people, uh, other couples.

[01:01:00] I know many who were into heavy drinking to drunkenness against the commandments and

[01:01:08] probably against our contract.

[01:01:09] I know people that were heavy into gambling and went to Vegas or the, uh, the local casinos

[01:01:15] here.

[01:01:16] And not that APU cared, but so many professors and staff were bigoted assholes like the psych

[01:01:25] prof who told students that all gay people were child molesters.

[01:01:29] Yeah.

[01:01:29] True story.

[01:01:30] See the episode with Matthew in episode or in season two.

[01:01:34] So evangelicals are fine with overt bigots.

[01:01:39] And misogynistic assholes.

[01:01:42] Clueless about the actual lifestyle of their leaders and teachers and people and staff.

[01:01:47] But you can feel safe and secure knowing that they don't let men and women who are in a relationship live together.

[01:01:56] Yes.

[01:01:57] They're really holding the line there.

[01:01:59] So the good news is we're heading to the exciting conclusion and happy ending, I think.

[01:02:06] Because at this point in the story, Julie is growing up and getting help.

[01:02:12] And she's seeing Christianity and this brand of Christianity for what it is.

[01:02:18] It's fucked up.

[01:02:20] But sometimes we need to see our lives and ourselves through the eyes of people we care about and people we trust.

[01:02:30] The family issue and some hard things have to happen first in this case.

[01:02:35] Has your therapist or therapists, did you find people who understood religious trauma and had some background in that?

[01:02:51] Some did.

[01:02:53] Others did not.

[01:02:55] I've had a couple different therapists.

[01:03:02] And, you know, it very much, to me at least, feels like a crop between like a romantic relationship and a friendship.

[01:03:14] Yeah.

[01:03:14] It's very intimate.

[01:03:15] You're sharing all your deepest thoughts, right?

[01:03:19] Yeah.

[01:03:19] Your innermost thoughts.

[01:03:21] Yeah.

[01:03:22] And so I haven't quite found, you know, exactly one therapist who really has that perspective.

[01:03:31] Because I also feel like a lot of therapists who are necessarily Christian are also selling their own kind of thing.

[01:03:45] And I don't need that.

[01:03:47] And, you know, like with Jim, it's good to have the outside perspective of somebody who wasn't.

[01:03:54] Yeah.

[01:03:54] I think that's huge.

[01:03:55] And that's come up a couple times this season when you can see yourself through someone else's eyes.

[01:04:01] Because we grew up in this stuff.

[01:04:03] And I didn't even grow up in as much high control as you did.

[01:04:05] But when you see that through other people's eyes and you see how horrified they are.

[01:04:11] And you go, oh, I guess that wasn't normal.

[01:04:15] You know, that wasn't, that was bad.

[01:04:17] Yeah.

[01:04:18] But it's hard to get to that.

[01:04:20] Yeah.

[01:04:20] It's hard to get to that place though, right?

[01:04:22] Where you admit to yourself that it was bad.

[01:04:24] It was because you just, well, it was just was what it was.

[01:04:27] And I made it through.

[01:04:28] Yeah.

[01:04:29] It's hard to dig into the harm that it did and the things that now you have to, you spend your adult life trying to extricate yourself from all that programming and all those, those horrible thoughts and experiences that you had.

[01:04:44] Yeah.

[01:04:44] And at the time I was really putting a lot of pressure on myself to be that Christian person, even though I wasn't necessarily following all of the, you know, quote unquote Christian tenants.

[01:05:02] I really was trying to be like, okay, I'm an adult now.

[01:05:05] I am.

[01:05:07] I am gonna, you know, follow Jesus.

[01:05:09] I'm gonna make this work.

[01:05:10] Um, and, and that, that idea still rattles around in my brain sometimes if I'm on it.

[01:05:17] Yeah.

[01:05:18] Um, where, you know, having that, having that like anchor where there is this set of rules where you're like, I have to follow these set of rules.

[01:05:31] I have to surrender to God's will.

[01:05:34] I have to do all of those things.

[01:05:36] Um, like that is an incredibly comforting, but at the same time I've found as many other people I've talked about incredibly damaging and, and just like, and just the guilt, the constant guilt.

[01:05:53] Um,

[01:05:55] Do you feel like that's getting better?

[01:05:57] Yeah.

[01:05:58] I do.

[01:05:59] Cause you, you have, um, a child.

[01:06:02] Yeah.

[01:06:03] I have.

[01:06:04] Grow up in the same environments that you did.

[01:06:07] Yeah.

[01:06:08] Yes.

[01:06:09] And, uh, that's, um, yeah, my kid, uh, was the funniest, like perfect timing kind of situation.

[01:06:24] So right after Jim and I got married, um, I was pregnant like three months later and it was completely unplanned.

[01:06:32] And, um, like I had mentioned previously, we were essentially living together.

[01:06:37] So of course we were having sex.

[01:06:38] Mm-hmm.

[01:06:39] And, um, you know, I was so happy that like we were actually married, um, when that happened.

[01:06:46] But at the same time, I was also like, oh, now I'm going to look like this, like Christian lady who like the instant the ring is on.

[01:06:55] I'm like, baby.

[01:06:57] Um, but now you're having sex for the first time.

[01:07:02] Right.

[01:07:03] Right.

[01:07:06] Um, and, and, and then it also came with all these like, you know, wonderful and challenging things where you really do have to grow up.

[01:07:15] Like I was, I was pretending I was an adult, uh, before I had a kid.

[01:07:20] And then when I actually had a kid, I was like, oh shit, I really can't like do whatever the hell I want all of the time.

[01:07:27] And, you know, just being a woman during the pregnancy, you're literally like giving up your body to another human being.

[01:07:36] And so, um, you know, that was, that was huge.

[01:07:41] And then now as my kid is getting older, um, you know, figure, figuring all that shit out where you're just trying not to traumatize them on a regular basis.

[01:07:54] And.

[01:07:55] Yeah, so true.

[01:07:58] And, uh, and, and also like holding the boundaries with my parents because they are wonderful grandparents.

[01:08:06] They really, they love my kid.

[01:08:09] Um, you know, they want to pick them up all the time and take them places and, you know, and that's, and that's really helpful.

[01:08:16] Yeah, it's really, it's so helpful.

[01:08:18] Beautiful.

[01:08:19] Not everybody has that, uh, grandparents nearby that can.

[01:08:22] Yeah.

[01:08:23] And so.

[01:08:24] Yeah, exactly.

[01:08:24] It's wonderful.

[01:08:26] And then, you know, he'll come home and he'll tell me, he'll be like, oh, we watched this video.

[01:08:30] And they were talking about all the books in the Bible.

[01:08:33] And they were talking about this and that.

[01:08:36] I'm like, oh, well, what do you think about that?

[01:08:39] Yeah.

[01:08:39] Yeah.

[01:08:40] And, um, I've been really proud of my kid actually, because he's been able to understand that, you know, just because this is what grandma believes, grandpa believes, it doesn't necessarily mean it's something that you have to believe.

[01:08:57] And, um, but then also like having to have the tough conversations with my mom.

[01:09:03] Yeah.

[01:09:03] I was going to, I was about to ask that.

[01:09:06] Yeah.

[01:09:07] Yeah.

[01:09:07] Yeah.

[01:09:07] And, um, uh, so right after all of this mess happened with the school board.

[01:09:13] So it happened to be the local school board that my kids go to.

[01:09:17] Um, I chose to go to one of the protests.

[01:09:21] Um, and so my support for the queer folks in our area.

[01:09:26] And I, of course, you know, being a teacher, I made myself a cute sign and said, you know, we love our kids.

[01:09:34] And it was all in rainbow colors and all that kind of stuff.

[01:09:40] And, um, I was part of this group of parents who were like really trying to like be more active in the community and like show active.

[01:09:51] And things like that.

[01:09:52] And so they told us to show up really early.

[01:09:54] Like the, the meeting was at like 5 PM and they had a show up at like 2 PM.

[01:10:00] I was like, fine, I'll show up.

[01:10:02] I'll stand in line.

[01:10:04] That's fine.

[01:10:04] And about 30 minutes after I was there, who comes walking across the parking lot, but my mom.

[01:10:13] To join you in your protests.

[01:10:18] Uh, so one of the girls that I was standing with, she was like, Oh, that's so sweet.

[01:10:23] Your mom's coming.

[01:10:25] I was like, don't.

[01:10:27] Uh, yes, she is coming.

[01:10:29] But it is technically.

[01:10:33] Uh, yeah.

[01:10:34] So she, you know, for a minute, I literally hid behind the sign.

[01:10:38] I was like, I just, I don't know what to do.

[01:10:40] I like froze.

[01:10:42] And then eventually I just had to be like, Hey mom, how's it going?

[01:10:47] And, you know, she was with one of her church friends.

[01:10:50] And then slowly over the next couple hours, like more of her church friends show up.

[01:10:55] And even the old pastor shows up and this one guy that I grew up with who, um, like, I'm going to try and say this without crying, but he, um, he has been in, uh, conversion therapy, um, for a number of years.

[01:11:17] I don't know exactly how long.

[01:11:20] And, uh, like they essentially like brought them in there as their like token gay person who, you know, has been healed.

[01:11:31] Um, and it was like, he came up and talked to me and they were all very cordial and nice.

[01:11:37] Um, but then it got really ugly and not with the church folk, but just with everybody there.

[01:11:44] Like it, it got, uh, thankfully it didn't get violent, but I definitely had, yeah, definitely had some people calling me, um, you know, the F word and like all that kind of stuff.

[01:11:59] And Jezebel with the G.

[01:12:02] Uh, thankfully no, but like it was, it was more of the other protesters, you know, who were supposedly like, you know, not the Christians are calling your names.

[01:12:15] Uh, it wasn't anybody from my church days, but I'm pretty sure that those people who showed up to protest were probably mostly quote unquote Christian.

[01:12:25] Right.

[01:12:26] And, um, yeah.

[01:12:28] And they were, they were calling her flers.

[01:12:31] Did you ever ask your mom how she felt being on that side of people saying horrible, ugly things?

[01:12:38] Yes, I did.

[01:12:38] Yeah.

[01:12:40] Yeah.

[01:12:40] So after this whole mess, like we all get up at the school board meeting, we all say our piece.

[01:12:47] Um, and a couple of days later I reached out to her because I was just horrified.

[01:12:53] Like, I mean, she doesn't technically have any kids in the district anymore.

[01:13:00] So she's doing this as like a activism thing.

[01:13:06] Like a local pastor.

[01:13:08] Yeah.

[01:13:09] Yeah.

[01:13:10] Yeah.

[01:13:10] And she even used like, I am pastor.

[01:13:13] I'm not going to say her name, but so-and-so and, you know, using her credentials.

[01:13:20] And so I sat down with her and was just trying to explain to her, like, don't you see that you're adding credence to all of these really, really hateful people?

[01:13:32] Yeah.

[01:13:33] Because, oh, if a pastor's on our side, clearly we're doing the right thing.

[01:13:37] Right.

[01:13:37] And, um, I mean, granted, you know, she was very argumentative, like, well, we weren't the ones who were saying all of those terrible things.

[01:13:44] We're just there to protect the children, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[01:13:48] And I, I just, I just had to like call her on it and be like, you don't know what you are talking about.

[01:13:57] You have no idea.

[01:14:00] It's not like pastors and priests are danger to kids.

[01:14:05] Ah, ha, ha.

[01:14:07] Um, yeah.

[01:14:09] Right.

[01:14:10] Right.

[01:14:11] Yeah.

[01:14:12] It was rough.

[01:14:12] So after, at that point, I basically had to tell my folks, like, I'm sorry.

[01:14:17] I know you guys have all of these cute little, like, musicals and, um, you know, they have one of those, like, Bethlehem village things during Christmas and, and like, that kind of stuff.

[01:14:33] Uh, not just, uh, not just a nativity set, but the whole fucking Bethlehem.

[01:14:38] Yeah.

[01:14:38] Is, is on display.

[01:14:40] Yes.

[01:14:41] Yeah.

[01:14:42] Bunch of, uh, you know, I'm guessing, I don't know for sure that anybody is Jewish in her congregation, but a bunch of people who are most likely not Jewish pretending to be Jewish.

[01:14:54] It's just weird.

[01:14:56] But yeah, all that stuff.

[01:14:58] I, I had to just be like, I'm sorry.

[01:15:00] We cannot participate in any of this anymore because this is just, this is the line.

[01:15:06] Like before that I had been trying to be gracious daughter and kind of explain away.

[01:15:12] Like, it's fine.

[01:15:15] It's just a, you know, harvest festival carnival.

[01:15:19] And we're just, you know, it's fine.

[01:15:21] I'm trying to make sure my kid has a good relationship with my mom.

[01:15:25] Yeah.

[01:15:25] You're threading the needle there trying to find that balance.

[01:15:28] Right.

[01:15:29] Yeah.

[01:15:30] Oh, that's.

[01:15:31] Yeah.

[01:15:32] So that was, that was really rough.

[01:15:37] Yeah.

[01:15:38] It would be rough if it was just an acquaintance, but it's your mom, you know, it's, has, has she ever tried to rationalize like the Trump thing to you?

[01:15:48] Oh.

[01:15:51] We just opened up a whole nother.

[01:15:54] I mean, cause as a pastor, I mean, I get like parishioners who, you know, don't know the Bible or don't know a lot, but like the pastor is the moral guide of the community.

[01:16:05] Right.

[01:16:05] And following that guy.

[01:16:06] Like, uh, yeah.

[01:16:10] So we've, we've had a couple of conversations about her and she is, I guess to me, it's so depressing to watch my parents support someone who is so awful that I don't push those conversations as much.

[01:16:38] Okay.

[01:16:39] Because I already know the talking points.

[01:16:43] And, and like follow the talking points.

[01:16:45] They just follow.

[01:16:47] Yep.

[01:16:47] They just follow the talking points.

[01:16:49] And, and, uh, again, I love my mom very much, but.

[01:16:53] Yeah.

[01:16:54] Yeah, of course.

[01:16:55] Like all of us, she is very flawed and, um, like it's, it, it really is so depressing to watch someone who from as long as I can remember, always talked about how we should always love our neighbors and we should always take care of them.

[01:17:16] And like, I remember taking lemonade out to the garbage truck guy.

[01:17:22] And as like a little kid and like little things, you know, always making sure you tithe, even though tithe is bullshit.

[01:17:30] But like the, the idea of it is like, you know, making sure that you're giving money so that the money can, um, go towards these organizations, finding the organizations that you want to volunteer at.

[01:17:43] Like, you know, helping the homeless, like all of that stuff.

[01:17:46] And then at this point, like this is, this is it, this is, this is your savior.

[01:17:52] This is the person who, you know, she still has like a little Trump key chain and all this shit.

[01:17:59] It's like, she, she doesn't, she doesn't talk about it anymore, but she doesn't shy away from it either.

[01:18:07] Um, that's, that's fascinating in, you know, in a really weird, horrible way, but it's.

[01:18:14] Yeah.

[01:18:17] Yeah.

[01:18:18] Yeah.

[01:18:19] And it, it very much just feels like she's been a Republican, Republican for her whole life.

[01:18:26] And, um, you know, I remember her listening to Rush Limbaugh all the time and, uh, it very much feels like, no, we can't, we can't side with those liberal.

[01:18:39] Like, like we're, it's, they're going to burn the world down.

[01:18:44] They're going to give away all our money.

[01:18:45] Like, yeah.

[01:18:47] Yeah.

[01:18:47] Because like Rush Limbaugh was, I remember hearing him like in the nineties and just thinking, okay, there's, he's using half truths.

[01:18:56] I was still Christian, but I was still Christian, but I'm thinking like, yeah, there's, I'm not with this guy.

[01:19:00] But I think it must be like death by a thousand cuts or the frog boiling in the water kind of thing where if you can accept as a Christian Rush Limbaugh, then that just takes you one step down that hill.

[01:19:12] Right.

[01:19:12] And then, then the tea party comes along and, and, uh, Ted Cruz and, and suddenly keeps queuing on and, and, and Trump.

[01:19:21] And it's just like, it's just little steps down the slippery slope.

[01:19:25] It's because you're actually taking, willingly taking these steps of, of sort of suspending your disbelief of truly awful things that these people say that are so clearly contradictory to the Bible.

[01:19:39] And because there's Republicans who have abandoned, you know, the whole Trump thing.

[01:19:44] And I wonder like, what are they eating or drinking that everyone else isn't?

[01:19:49] Cause they see it so clearly, you know, all the Republicans, there's a lot of them that have abandoned the party.

[01:19:57] Yeah.

[01:19:58] So, yeah.

[01:19:59] Yeah.

[01:20:00] And I, yeah, it's, it's a freaking mess.

[01:20:04] Um, because like, I have a, I have a feeling, I cannot say this with any sort of certain group, um, but I have a feeling it has to do with her church community.

[01:20:14] Um, I remember from a very young age, uh, the pastor of the church, uh, talking about political issues from the pulpit, even though technically speaking.

[01:20:27] You're not supposed to.

[01:20:28] Yep.

[01:20:28] You're not supposed to.

[01:20:29] Tax exempt status.

[01:20:30] Mm-hmm.

[01:20:32] Um, and, uh, yeah.

[01:20:36] So I, I, you know, my dad didn't get vaccinated.

[01:20:39] Uh, and I blame that a hundred percent on, uh, on the pastor because, you know, the, the few times that I did happen to run into them, you know, out and out and about during COVID.

[01:20:56] Like one of the first things that guy said to me was, well, you know, this is just like a flu.

[01:21:01] So we're just going to let everybody get in and it's going to be fine.

[01:21:04] I was like, are you, are you a doctor?

[01:21:07] Are you a medical doctor?

[01:21:08] I don't.

[01:21:08] And are you looking at the news of tens of thousands of people around you dying?

[01:21:14] Yeah.

[01:21:16] Oh yeah.

[01:21:17] Yeah.

[01:21:17] So yeah.

[01:21:18] Well, yeah, we're getting into like the, the territory that it's just better not to think about right now.

[01:21:26] Right.

[01:21:26] But yeah, but just to wrap, wrap up, I really appreciate you, you telling your story.

[01:21:32] Um, we're protecting your identity because there's a lot at stake here, both in your job and in your family.

[01:21:39] Yeah.

[01:21:40] But I don't know.

[01:21:41] I think just people hearing these stories, I think there's a lot of people dealing with very similar things.

[01:21:47] And I feel like the more we can tell these stories, the, the more, the more people can feel like they're not alone and they, and they can, um, they can make it through.

[01:21:56] And so.

[01:21:58] Yeah.

[01:21:59] Yeah.

[01:21:59] Do you have any last thoughts about what to say to people as, as they're going through it, as you're going through it currently?

[01:22:06] Um, nothing, nothing really profound.

[01:22:09] Uh, I find myself laughing really corny TV shows these days to keep my spirits up watching golden girls right now.

[01:22:17] So.

[01:22:17] Oh, like the old original one.

[01:22:19] Uh huh.

[01:22:19] It's fun.

[01:22:21] Yeah.

[01:22:21] I mean, there's, there's shit that they say in there too.

[01:22:24] That's terrible, but yeah.

[01:22:26] It was the eighties.

[01:22:27] It was the eighties.

[01:22:29] Um, but yeah, I really appreciate you, um, having me on the podcast.

[01:22:34] Um, like, uh, it, it, and, and I just did.

[01:22:39] In general, I appreciate this podcast.

[01:22:41] I mentioned to you before, but, uh, trying not to fangirl too much.

[01:22:46] Um, but it's been.

[01:22:48] Like you mentioned, really nice to hear a lot of different people's perspective.

[01:22:53] Um, because it, it really helped me feel like I'm not the only one and I'm not a crazy person.

[01:22:59] Well, we're all crazy together in our own special way.

[01:23:03] Yeah.

[01:23:04] And you've been, we've hung out now.

[01:23:06] We send karaoke together.

[01:23:07] There's no more fangirling.

[01:23:10] I'm like Oz, you know, behind the curtain.

[01:23:12] It's not that impressive.

[01:23:15] Oh my gosh.

[01:23:16] That was so fun.

[01:23:18] I can't, I can't even tell everybody who's listening to this right now.

[01:23:21] It was so fun.

[01:23:22] Scott, uh, like doesn't brag enough about how good of a guitarist he is.

[01:23:28] Like they were just like, really?

[01:23:31] Like you guys were just picking up whatever songs with no sheet music, no nothing.

[01:23:35] Just like what chord is this?

[01:23:36] Okay, let's go.

[01:23:37] And it was, it was so fun.

[01:23:39] Oh yeah.

[01:23:39] And we'll do it again.

[01:23:40] Cause I feel like singing cool songs together is healing.

[01:23:44] So, yeah.

[01:23:46] So yeah, if you're listening and you're in the Southern California area, it's hard to get

[01:23:50] people out in Southern California.

[01:23:51] There's a lot to do here.

[01:23:53] People say they want to come out and they go, okay, we're having a party.

[01:23:55] And then like, well, I'm tired.

[01:23:59] Yeah.

[01:24:00] But, uh, you are a great singer.

[01:24:03] So we'll, we'll put that on the advertisement next time.

[01:24:06] Um, but yeah, thank you, uh, Julie for, for doing this and coming on and telling your

[01:24:14] story.

[01:24:15] Yeah.

[01:24:16] Thanks Scott.

[01:24:21] Family can be a tough set of relationships to navigate while deconstructing.

[01:24:27] And it's tough in the best of circumstances, figuring out how to draw healthy boundaries

[01:24:33] while still maintaining a loving relationship can be really hard.

[01:24:38] In some cases it can be impossible because it's not completely up to us.

[01:24:45] It takes all parties involved to acknowledge the differing views and agree to still love

[01:24:51] each other and find a way forward.

[01:24:54] Not easy.

[01:24:57] Sometimes the best we can do is to just not talk about it.

[01:25:02] But I know it's hard.

[01:25:04] It's hard.

[01:25:05] It's so hard because we were all once deeply inside evangelical or some kind of fundamentalist

[01:25:11] culture with our families and community.

[01:25:14] And we have since rejected that culture, thereby rejecting the people in it to a degree and throw

[01:25:24] in the Trump shit.

[01:25:25] And I don't know.

[01:25:27] I don't know.

[01:25:28] I have no words, but Julie and her mom are doing about as well as is humanly possible to keep

[01:25:36] their relationship going despite seemingly impossible odds because Trump.

[01:25:45] I mean, Trump.

[01:25:48] I know several guests this season can relate to Julie, and I'm certain a lot of you listening

[01:25:56] can also relate.

[01:25:58] It's the world we live in today.

[01:26:03] If you have thoughts, I'd love to hear them about this, about how you navigate family.

[01:26:09] Maybe you can send a voice message or an email.

[01:26:14] I've been hearing this narrative a lot, especially in the last couple of weeks from friends and

[01:26:22] guests on the show.

[01:26:24] So I just want to shout you all out and say, I know you're doing your best.

[01:26:29] I hope you're prioritizing your mental health and and cherishing yourselves through this whole

[01:26:39] process, because the tendency is to feel guilty or to feel shameful about wanting the best lives

[01:26:48] for ourselves, which we deserve.

[01:26:52] So, yeah, thanks.

[01:26:54] Thanks to Julie again for coming on and telling her story.

[01:26:59] Apparently she's been listening to us for a while, and it's so great to connect.

[01:27:03] She lives nearby.

[01:27:05] And yeah, so I hope you all have a great week.

[01:27:09] We'll be back next week with another episode.

[01:27:14] Actually, let's try something.

[01:27:16] While we were talking about singing in karaoke, Julie told me that, well, actually, we were

[01:27:24] talking about songs of our deconstruction and songs that really mean a lot to us and then

[01:27:30] things that we like to sing in karaoke.

[01:27:33] And so I think I'll have us, I'll have Julie herself play us out of this episode with a

[01:27:38] song.

[01:27:39] She literally just recorded this on her phone so I could hear it.

[01:27:41] And I don't know, I just think it's so great because it's just this raw moment in time where

[01:27:48] someone's singing a song that really means a lot to her.

[01:27:53] And I like to think that it's music like this and the act of singing that helps get us through each day

[01:28:02] when things get tough.

[01:28:04] And so, yeah, I hope you enjoy this rendition of a song called Rise Up by sung by Julie to take us out.

[01:28:13] Okay.

[01:28:21] We can walk it out.