Chapel Probation s4- Donavon Delisle-SA Survivor Turned Deconstruction Podcaster

[00:00:00] This is a Dauntless Media Collective Podcast. Visit dauntless.fm for more content.

[00:00:07] Hey, this is Cortland.

[00:00:09] And this is Megan.

[00:00:10] We're from the Thereafter podcast.

[00:00:12] And we are so excited about our second annual content warning event coming up next February.

[00:00:19] This year, we're going to be in Atlanta, Georgia over President's Day weekend, February 15th and 16th, 2025, with some extra hangout time on Friday, February 14th.

[00:00:30] Content warning is a unique event with more than 20 collaborators who are podcasters, authors, therapists, speakers, and creators that want to reinvigorate the conversation happening around sex and sexuality in faith deconstruction spaces.

[00:00:46] We'll have panel discussions, facilitated conversations, and even a live stream option for those who can't make it in person.

[00:00:54] Our hope is to make this an annual gathering in various locations as we continue striving to build inclusive community.

[00:01:01] You can find all the event information at contentwarningevent.com.

[00:01:07] Early bird tickets are on sale through October 31st.

[00:01:10] We hope you'll join us there.

[00:01:21] I regret to inform you, you're on Chapel Probation, a podcast that usually takes a critical look at evangelical colleges and universities.

[00:01:29] But of course, this week, we're back to cults like America.

[00:01:36] I'm your host, Scott Okamoto.

[00:01:49] Greetings, reprobates.

[00:01:52] How are you doing?

[00:01:54] It's been a pretty shitty week.

[00:01:56] We just got the biggest reminder that this country hates things that are good.

[00:02:08] They don't like BIPOC people.

[00:02:10] They don't like queer people.

[00:02:15] I'm not even sure what it likes.

[00:02:19] I think I only know what it hates.

[00:02:23] Now, if you listen to this podcast, you know we cover some tough stuff.

[00:02:28] And I don't usually give trigger content warnings, and I probably should, because pretty much every episode has some kind of horrible shit we're talking about, even while we laugh and cry.

[00:02:41] Almost everything that comes out of religious trauma is triggering, but today I'm going to say trigger warning, because it's intense.

[00:02:49] Today's guest, Donovan Delisle, is a podcaster who was a co-host of the popular excommunication station with Chrissy and Chaz, who I also would like to have on.

[00:03:04] But Donovan has left to do other things, and you'll hear more of his story.

[00:03:10] He is the survivor of sexual abuse.

[00:03:16] It's abuse inside of an insidious strain of Christianity, but it's not fringe.

[00:03:23] His story is hard to hear, but we need to hear it.

[00:03:28] Our country just elected a self-described.

[00:03:31] He admits to this.

[00:03:32] He's a sexual assaulter who has been convicted of sexual assault in civil court.

[00:03:39] More on that front to come.

[00:03:43] But Donovan, like too many people, experienced unspeakable trauma as a child, and then was made to feel guilty for it.

[00:03:54] Guilty by his family and the church.

[00:03:58] The fucking church.

[00:04:01] If you've ever wondered how Christians can support someone like Trump,

[00:04:04] well, doing so is embedded into the DNA of American evangelical Christianity.

[00:04:12] This culture that supposedly promotes family values actually sanctions abuse of women and children.

[00:04:20] And of course I'm not saying all Christian men are abusers, or all churches sanction it.

[00:04:27] Well, they probably do.

[00:04:29] I'm saying the church is either fine with abuse, or it turns its back on victims of abuse in favor of patriarchy.

[00:04:37] Or both.

[00:04:40] So, here's the content warning.

[00:04:42] Not the event.

[00:04:43] An actual content warning that Donovan gets specific about how abuse at the hands of evil people,

[00:04:49] and the ongoing abuse happens of blaming victims.

[00:04:54] But Donovan, with help from his wife and friends, not to mention a wicked sense of humor,

[00:05:01] has clawed his way out.

[00:05:03] My name is Donovan Delisle, and I go by he, him, and I go by Donovan, or Don.

[00:05:12] That's basically it.

[00:05:15] All right.

[00:05:16] And we met through your former podcast.

[00:05:19] You guys had me on a few times, a couple times.

[00:05:33] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:34] Yeah.

[00:05:35] Not just in your whole life.

[00:05:37] A lot has happened in your life.

[00:05:38] So, I'm really anxious to get into this and have people hear your story.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:45] I'm excited to be here and very grateful to have the opportunity and very excited to talk to you again,

[00:05:51] because a few times we had you on was a good time.

[00:05:55] Yeah, yeah.

[00:05:55] No, we're all kindred spirits here, so.

[00:05:59] And then we'll talk about some of your current and future projects at the end, just so spoilers.

[00:06:05] Awesome sauce.

[00:06:06] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:06] But let's go back.

[00:06:09] What was young Donovan's life like?

[00:06:15] Well, I grew up Lutheran.

[00:06:19] I went to St. Thomas Lutheran Church in Baltimore City, right on the outskirts of downtown.

[00:06:25] So, it was a nice, beautiful little area full of sex workers and drug dealers.

[00:06:32] The kind of people Jesus would have hung out with.

[00:06:36] Oddly enough, yeah.

[00:06:39] But, you know, a lot of Christians today wouldn't have you believe that, though.

[00:06:43] Yeah.

[00:06:44] Yeah.

[00:06:46] I went there.

[00:06:48] I grew up pretty hardcore Lutheran.

[00:06:50] I was baptized there.

[00:06:51] I went there from the ages of about 2 to 14, I believe.

[00:06:57] I was an acolyte there, or an altar boy, known in other circles.

[00:07:03] I was in the choir.

[00:07:05] I did all the youth groups.

[00:07:07] I did the church bazaars, which were like the church yard sales, basically.

[00:07:12] I did all that fun stuff extracurricularly at church.

[00:07:17] And my father was a deacon there, or tried to be a deacon.

[00:07:20] Sorry, let me rephrase that.

[00:07:24] But other than that, yeah.

[00:07:26] I just basically was at the church a lot.

[00:07:28] I had a very tight-knit family who also was at the church.

[00:07:33] My mother was very quiet and very, you know, like the typical church mom.

[00:07:38] And my dad was very overbearing.

[00:07:41] And like the hardcore just didn't let you have things, but also very disciplinary, like take doors away from you, things like that.

[00:07:51] That kind of stuff, very hardcore.

[00:07:54] Like doors?

[00:07:55] Yeah, like he would take your bedroom door as a punishment.

[00:07:59] He would take your dresser and everything out of your room except for your mattress.

[00:08:04] It was very like militarized almost.

[00:08:08] Like some mornings when he would wake us up because he would get pissed off because we'd still be tired.

[00:08:13] He would make us do jumping jacks to wake us up.

[00:08:16] It was very weird, man.

[00:08:19] Oh.

[00:08:20] So wait, literally take the door off the hinges so you didn't have a door to your room?

[00:08:25] Yep, he would do that all the time.

[00:08:27] And it was very weird and uncomfortable.

[00:08:30] And the weird thing is it was one of those experiences that I assumed everyone went through because he made us feel that way.

[00:08:37] You know what I mean?

[00:08:37] Like, you know your friend Mikey down the street.

[00:08:40] He lost his door last week for not finishing his broccoli.

[00:08:43] You know, that kind of stuff.

[00:08:45] Oh, shit.

[00:08:45] As I got older and I would talk to people, they were like, nah, dude.

[00:08:48] Yeah, no, it's not easy to take a door off.

[00:08:52] Yeah, it's a process, man.

[00:08:54] You'd think like halfway through it your mind would settle and you'd be like, what am I doing?

[00:08:57] This is not worth the effort.

[00:08:59] I don't even remember what I was trying to teach him.

[00:09:03] Right.

[00:09:03] I think the lesson's gone at that point.

[00:09:06] Now you're just trying to be like, I'm the big guy.

[00:09:09] Yeah.

[00:09:10] Trying to be like a DIY alpha male.

[00:09:15] What's the name of that dude from the 90s that had that home makeover show?

[00:09:19] You know what I'm talking about with the big beard?

[00:09:21] This old house?

[00:09:22] I think so.

[00:09:24] Norm?

[00:09:25] Abrams?

[00:09:25] Norm something?

[00:09:27] Not Norm Macdonald.

[00:09:29] Not Norm Macdonald.

[00:09:30] That would have been a better show.

[00:09:32] Yeah.

[00:09:33] Anyway.

[00:09:34] All right.

[00:09:35] So your dad sounds like that was tough.

[00:09:38] Was the religion the usual high control stuff too?

[00:09:42] Like you said Lutheran, right?

[00:09:45] Yeah.

[00:09:47] My father was really touch and go with the rules in our religion and the denomination we had.

[00:09:53] It was basically like the rules were more for us than they were for him, if that makes sense.

[00:09:59] Because he was constantly drinking and finding rules and stuff that would say that it was cool to drink.

[00:10:05] But then, I don't know.

[00:10:07] I think in Lutheran it was okay to drink.

[00:10:09] If I remember correctly.

[00:10:11] In Lutheran, you know, that's like...

[00:10:12] Yeah, because it's Catholic light.

[00:10:14] That's what I used to joke when I was a kid.

[00:10:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:10:17] My dad used to hate it, but I was like, it's like Catholicism light.

[00:10:22] Yeah.

[00:10:23] Yeah.

[00:10:23] But my mom was Catholic when she was a kid and my dad like made fun of her for it all the time, which was weird.

[00:10:29] So you kind of agree.

[00:10:32] Right.

[00:10:35] But yeah.

[00:10:37] As you got older, were you starting to like question your dad's methods of parenting?

[00:10:45] And was that conflated with religion at all?

[00:10:48] So everything, everything my father taught us and was made rules with was 100% used like with religion.

[00:10:58] So as far as the, I'll get back to that in a second.

[00:11:02] As far as the questioning my father and like realizing the things he was saying was wrong and stuff like that.

[00:11:08] But that didn't happen until I met my wife when I was 17, 16.

[00:11:14] And she started to like pull the veil off my eyes and be like, hey, a lot of this stuff is not okay.

[00:11:20] And it's very questionable where like the reasoning is coming from and the intent behind it and stuff like that.

[00:11:29] So that didn't happen until I was almost an adult and I moved out of my house.

[00:11:33] And it was just very strange how fastly, like how fastly, how quickly the veil just dropped from my eyes.

[00:11:42] And I just realized how much of this stuff was just excuses and rules to let things happen that shouldn't have been happening.

[00:11:52] Yeah.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:53] Seeing your family through someone else's eyes can give you a perspective that you just weren't able to have before.

[00:12:03] Absolutely.

[00:12:04] Because the way my father was too, like he just, he trained us to believe like a lot of this stuff was just normalized.

[00:12:12] Like we weren't allowed to talk about the things we want on in our house.

[00:12:15] Like that was one of the biggest rules was like, he used to joke that like we had like a 10 commandments of our own home.

[00:12:20] And like one of them was that we weren't allowed to talk about what happened in our house.

[00:12:24] And it was because like people might not understand, they might not follow the same religion.

[00:12:30] You know, I've heard other people say this as we've done excommunication and stuff, but it's not a good thing.

[00:12:37] It sucked to hear other people went through it, but like manipulative.

[00:12:41] Yeah.

[00:12:43] And the older I got, I can go into more detail why I mean this, but with my wife and stuff, I may, I may sound a little jittery and I'm sorry, but like I said, I don't get serious about this stuff a lot.

[00:12:54] So I get kind of like, eh, eh, eh, on the inside when I talk about it.

[00:12:57] Yeah, man.

[00:12:58] Yeah, that's good.

[00:13:00] So with my wife, I realized that growing up, my family was a lot like a cult.

[00:13:06] And I mean that sincerely and not like metaphorically.

[00:13:11] My father was very narcissistic and he was diagnosed as a sociopath.

[00:13:17] So we had to like meet him at the door every day.

[00:13:19] We had to watch only what he wanted.

[00:13:22] His music was constantly playing because he produced music and was a DJ.

[00:13:27] He was an alcoholic.

[00:13:28] We had to, we were never allowed to talk to each other unless he was around, which we didn't even realize until like a couple of years ago that like me and my sisters don't have an emotional connection at all.

[00:13:39] Wait, so your dad is not home.

[00:13:42] You are not allowed to talk to your siblings?

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:47] And we would keep to that because out of fear of him, like that he would find out, like if we would try to play and stuff, my mom had to be right there.

[00:13:54] And if my mom wasn't around, it was not happening like at all.

[00:13:58] And if it was like private conversations, it was not allowed to happen.

[00:14:02] My father even had cameras in the house to watch us sometimes.

[00:14:06] Yeah.

[00:14:08] So I don't know if you ever heard of that podcast about that, that, that girl whose sister went missing and like they thought her stepfather did it.

[00:14:16] No.

[00:14:17] Um, but like everything that her dad did in that was, it was very upsetting because it was the same shit my father did.

[00:14:24] Like the, the stalking, the watching, the manipulation, but it all came back to the Bible.

[00:14:30] And it all was justified by Bible verses and parables and metaphors.

[00:14:37] Um, the biggest one that was always used in our home was the, uh, the story of taking our more or less the rule of if your children are, um, disrespectful and they don't listen, take them to the gates of the city and stone them to death with the citizens of the city.

[00:14:55] My father used that constantly as reasoning to why spanking and beating us was okay because it wasn't that.

[00:15:05] And there were other Bible verses.

[00:15:08] I know this is really a lot of heavy stuff right at the top.

[00:15:13] Um, so should I slow down?

[00:15:16] No, no.

[00:15:16] Um, keep going, man.

[00:15:19] I, I, okay.

[00:15:20] Okay.

[00:15:21] We all need, we need to hear this.

[00:15:22] It's, this is good.

[00:15:23] I mean, it's not good that it happened, but no, I know what you mean.

[00:15:27] I feel like, yeah, no, don't, don't censor yourself.

[00:15:30] Keep, keep going.

[00:15:31] Well, another reason why I wanted to talk about this heavy shit more is like when I would get into the heavy stuff on the excommunication station, it felt like more people would reach out saying like they went through it too and it's helped them process stuff.

[00:15:44] So that's another reason why I was like more serious.

[00:15:47] No, we've had this topic before with IBLP.

[00:15:50] Okay, cool.

[00:15:50] And, um, right, right, right.

[00:15:52] Yeah.

[00:15:52] So, um, okay, cool.

[00:15:56] Um, so another one of the Bible verses or Bible stories my father would bring up all the time to talk about quote unquote, how children are deceitful.

[00:16:05] That's his words were, um, the stories about Noah and his sons, you know, like trying to see his father naked or something like that when he was drunk.

[00:16:15] It's a weird story.

[00:16:16] And the one, right.

[00:16:17] And then the one, I think it was either a lot or Job and his daughters, or was it Noah and his daughters?

[00:16:23] I can't remember at the moment, the ones where they tried to have sex with their dad.

[00:16:26] That's a lot.

[00:16:27] That's a lot.

[00:16:27] That's what I thought.

[00:16:28] Okay.

[00:16:28] Yeah.

[00:16:29] And had babies.

[00:16:30] Right.

[00:16:31] So my father tried, my father used that example as a lot too, is why kids were evil.

[00:16:36] Oh, shit.

[00:16:37] And so it turned out, this is a big jump in time, but it turned out that later on my father was abusing some of the kids in our family sexually.

[00:16:47] Jesus.

[00:16:48] And that was also used in his trial.

[00:16:53] So when my father, I know I'm burying the lead here, Jesus.

[00:16:57] Sorry.

[00:16:57] Let me, let me back it up a little bit.

[00:17:00] Um, so when I was about 17 or 18, I moved out of my family's house, like I said, and I moved in with my wife, my wife now.

[00:17:08] And, uh, I started to realize a bunch of stuff.

[00:17:11] And then some of my family members, I can't say who, cause I don't want to like completely out them, even though there's been like stuff.

[00:17:18] Um, a couple of my family members came to me and told me some stories about my father and it was a lot.

[00:17:23] Uh, it was really heavy and it made me realize a lot more things and stuff like that.

[00:17:29] Um, but eventually this person got strong enough to realize that my father might have other victims or could and decided to prosecute my father.

[00:17:42] And my father had a trial and everything.

[00:17:44] I had to testify against him.

[00:17:46] And his trial was the biggest moment for me when I realized like that I actually needed to deconstruct.

[00:17:53] And I realized how much religion actually fucked up my life because we're, I'm sitting in the witness booth or on the witness stand and they're asking me all these questions.

[00:18:06] And then they start asking me Bible verses my father used and specific passages my father used.

[00:18:13] And then they jump right to it.

[00:18:14] And these were the, these were the passages Mr. Delal used to let his victims, blah, blah, blah.

[00:18:19] And then like the second they said that, like, I realized like everything of like the manipulation and all those tactics that were used for the church and how much like, cause I always just kind of wrote it off.

[00:18:33] You know what I mean?

[00:18:33] Like I went to church.

[00:18:34] I was a Christian.

[00:18:35] I was a little bit of a Bible thumper when I was a baby.

[00:18:38] I didn't really think about it.

[00:18:40] But then with that day, man, like it even messed with my brain.

[00:18:45] Like even my wife says like I changed after that, like I've gotten closer to getting back to that, but it broke something open in me.

[00:18:53] I would, I don't want to say it broke me cause I'm still the same person, but it just like.

[00:18:56] It broke part of you.

[00:18:58] I mean.

[00:18:59] Yeah.

[00:19:00] And it, and it opened up something where I was just realized a lot.

[00:19:04] And, and like, yeah, our family was just riddled with, as I got older and realized just people just abusing people.

[00:19:15] And when I was younger, I was abused by two of my cousins and they were using Bible stuff and, you know, Jesus's love to validate things.

[00:19:26] And so it's just realizing all of that, that happened at a young age is kind of like put me in a, not downward spiral, but on this like journey of like realizing a lot of shit and just trying to like figure out what were trauma responses as far as getting through things, what I actually believed.

[00:19:49] Yeah.

[00:19:50] Like what was like anxiety attacks at a young age?

[00:19:53] Cause cause I would have anxiety attacks about going to hell, like hardcore at like eight years old.

[00:19:58] And my dad would just be like, that's just a spiritual battle.

[00:20:01] You need to make sure you get that in check.

[00:20:03] Cause that means you don't believe hard enough, you know?

[00:20:05] And it's so going back through all the young age shit has been really hard.

[00:20:10] Cause it's like deciphering, you know, it's like looking at it like a, it's like a Christmas story.

[00:20:17] Like you got that little fucking thing and you're looking at the code and you're trying to figure out, is this just about old teen or is it about my soul?

[00:20:26] Yes.

[00:20:27] And you're right.

[00:20:29] Sorry.

[00:20:29] That's yeah.

[00:20:30] Dumb jokes to get through the trauma.

[00:20:33] I mean, to me, your sense of humor shows that you're taking like control over it, that you're pushing back because you're, you're, you're recognizing the ridiculousness of.

[00:20:49] Some really horrible shit that you had, you had to go through.

[00:20:52] Can I ask the trial?

[00:20:54] Was that brought by someone in your family or was that another outside of the family?

[00:21:01] So, uh, I mean, I can say this with being pretty vague cause I have multiple siblings, but it was one of my siblings.

[00:21:08] Yeah.

[00:21:08] And it was, uh, yeah, it was one of my siblings and it was pretty intense.

[00:21:14] It was a hard time for sure.

[00:21:16] I mean, you don't have to give details.

[00:21:18] No.

[00:21:18] I was just curious if it was extended outside of the family.

[00:21:22] No, no, it's cool.

[00:21:23] It's cool.

[00:21:24] I understand what you mean and it's all good.

[00:21:26] Um, I'm glad you actually brought that up cause I do want to mention this cause I kind of brought it up for earlier, but let's not having an emotional connection.

[00:21:33] I believe that that was all part of the grooming process for my father, you know?

[00:21:39] So yeah.

[00:21:39] Yeah.

[00:21:40] Yeah.

[00:21:40] And realizing that too, was like a whole hurdle to jump over where I was like, this was my dad and these were my sisters.

[00:21:46] So it's like having to accept that that was the reality has been a, was a, was a weird situation.

[00:21:53] But, um, the day of the trial was like a sink or swim moment for us having a relationship, you know, because it was, they kept us in this separate room from everybody because we weren't allowed to talk to people or it would like lead to a mistrial and shit like that.

[00:22:09] And so I'm in the room and I go and testify.

[00:22:12] I come back and then my sister goes and when she comes back, she like ran to me and hugged me.

[00:22:19] And it was like the first time we ever really hugged.

[00:22:22] And I, I, she fucking broke down, but like, I couldn't, I don't cry a lot.

[00:22:28] And like, I, I, in my therapist and me, we talk about this where like, I have a physical response to emotion where like, if I get emotional, I will literally lock up to the point where I stopped breathing sometimes.

[00:22:41] Yeah.

[00:22:42] And I think that's one of the reasons I keep getting so jittery, but like that day that almost happened.

[00:22:48] And it's just, it's been a, it's been a journey with both of my sisters to build a connection.

[00:22:55] But that was just that, that whole day was just a bunch of realizations.

[00:23:00] And that was one of the big ones too, was just like, we don't have anything as far as like a connection because of this man.

[00:23:08] And, and it was just, it was wild.

[00:23:10] How old were you when this happened, the trial?

[00:23:12] This is 2016, I believe.

[00:23:15] So I was 25.

[00:23:17] Oh my God.

[00:23:18] Yeah.

[00:23:18] Yeah.

[00:23:18] My, she was, she was, she had to be 21.

[00:23:23] Yeah.

[00:23:23] It was a, it was a lot.

[00:23:26] And then I had an, I, my other sister refused to be there because she hadn't like gone through things that had happened with her yet as far as like unpacking things and stuff.

[00:23:37] So it was a lot.

[00:23:39] It was, it was a wild, wild situation.

[00:23:43] But like I said, in the end, it was all justified with church situations and stuff like that.

[00:23:49] And the Bible.

[00:23:51] And when I was, yeah.

[00:23:54] So I wasn't going to talk about this, but I'll talk about it anyway, because I was already talking about other things.

[00:24:00] My mom had a family friend that she was really close with who started coming around a lot and he would come to church with us and things like that.

[00:24:08] And I'm assuming he saw how broken my house was.

[00:24:11] Um, but eventually he swooped in and started, um, abusing me and grooming me.

[00:24:18] And I would try to talk about it to my father and to church.

[00:24:24] And every time I would try to talk about something referring to me being, you know, S-A-ed, uh, it was brought up that like any kind of male to male interaction was gay and it was a sin.

[00:24:39] Regardless of how it happened, you sinned.

[00:24:42] And so I would try to talk about it and it would kind of like, just, it wouldn't go anywhere.

[00:24:52] Cause I would want to, I'd end up wanting to keep it in.

[00:24:54] Cause I would be one scared that I would be judged.

[00:24:57] And two, I was scared that I was sinning.

[00:25:00] And it was like this fucking rotating door, you know, of me wanting to get out, but not realizing how, or just every fucking spin was a new whole fucking reason to hate myself.

[00:25:13] And it's, and I was only fucking 11 years old.

[00:25:16] Oh man.

[00:25:18] And yeah.

[00:25:19] So this, the whole, that, I think that's not a thing that's talked about a lot when it comes to like how much, like how homophobic the church is.

[00:25:28] It's like the whole aspect of like, it really shuts the door on a lot of victims because the way that it's talked about is that's looked at as gay sex by a lot of people.

[00:25:39] And it's not, it's, it's fucking rape.

[00:25:43] You know?

[00:25:44] Yeah.

[00:25:45] And it's, yeah, I wanted to do like a whole series about this on the excommunication station, but it never panned out cause I was going to be the one to write it.

[00:25:56] And it was always just too much for me to start doing.

[00:26:01] Cause there's a, there's a whole lot of layers to all of that and I'd never know where to start, you know?

[00:26:07] Yeah.

[00:26:08] But I really appreciate you giving voice to this situation because, you know, it's hard.

[00:26:16] It would be hard to sit down and write it.

[00:26:19] Of course it would.

[00:26:20] Yeah.

[00:26:20] Because you have to go back through that shit.

[00:26:22] And, and every instinct in your body is saying, don't go back to that place.

[00:26:30] Um, so was this, was this person like a member in good standing in the church?

[00:26:39] Like he was.

[00:26:40] Nope.

[00:26:41] He was just a guy that my mom became friends with oddly enough and fucked up enough.

[00:26:48] My mom volunteered at my sister's school and she met him there.

[00:26:52] And, uh, so then she was like, you should come to the church.

[00:26:55] We have youth groups and stuff.

[00:26:57] Came to the church to help out with that.

[00:26:59] Oh my God.

[00:27:00] And he was just around all the time after that.

[00:27:02] And it was the, uh, the thing we always joked about on the excommunication station where we're

[00:27:07] like, it's a breeding ground for, you know, monsters and predators, but it's the fucking

[00:27:13] truth.

[00:27:13] And I'm testament to that.

[00:27:15] I was a fucking victim.

[00:27:18] I'm not, well, yeah, you know, I was of that.

[00:27:21] And it's, and that's the thing.

[00:27:24] It's like you at, like what you're saying, was he a member of the church or in good standing?

[00:27:28] No, he was able to just walk in the fucking door.

[00:27:32] You know, oh man, I'm so sorry.

[00:27:37] I have no words.

[00:27:39] I just, uh, but you're, but you're right about that.

[00:27:43] The, the, cause men have such, he, he may not have been in good standing in the church,

[00:27:48] but any man that walks through the doors of a church is immediately granted a kind of

[00:27:54] standing, right?

[00:27:55] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:27:57] Especially a blonde haired white man.

[00:28:00] Did your dad ever wonder why your mom was bringing another dude around or was he just

[00:28:09] sort of so much in his own world that he didn't even notice?

[00:28:12] So much in his, yep.

[00:28:13] So much in his own world.

[00:28:14] He was such a narcissist.

[00:28:16] And, uh, I'll give you this.

[00:28:18] I'll give you a quote from my father when he was on trial on the stand.

[00:28:21] I wasn't in there cause I wasn't allowed to be after his trial.

[00:28:25] We had a lunch with the, uh, the DA and she told us this after she told us he was guilty.

[00:28:31] Um, I'll save you the worry about that.

[00:28:34] Also, he got 66 fucking years.

[00:28:36] He's in there for a while.

[00:28:38] Um, he stood up literally like he was in a fucking TV show and he said, I did nothing wrong.

[00:28:43] I was trying to save my family like a white knight on a steed, quote unquote.

[00:28:51] That's real.

[00:28:52] That's how fucking crazy in the head this man was.

[00:28:55] So he was not worried about my mom bringing another guy around and it wasn't that, but

[00:29:01] this guy was, yeah, yeah.

[00:29:04] He was just, uh, yeah, it wasn't those.

[00:29:06] He was one of those kinds of guys that was married to a woman that was obviously a beard

[00:29:11] for him.

[00:29:11] Right.

[00:29:12] If that's, I don't know if that's appropriate to say anymore, but that's what it was.

[00:29:15] It was a fake situation.

[00:29:17] You know what I mean?

[00:29:17] Yeah.

[00:29:18] And, um, but yeah, my, my dad didn't really care about that.

[00:29:24] He was too in his own shit for sure.

[00:29:27] And it's so tragic that like Christianity perfectly aligns with the, the agenda of someone like

[00:29:37] that.

[00:29:39] Yes.

[00:29:40] Right.

[00:29:40] Right.

[00:29:41] And it's easy for them to find reasons to justify their behavior because of that.

[00:29:45] They got Bible verses and this patriarchal system of, of church.

[00:29:51] Yep.

[00:29:52] And then when it's a person who is a much older and, you know, literally teaching a person

[00:29:59] how to live, they can mold and shape it to me and whatever they want even, even easier.

[00:30:05] And that's what happened to us.

[00:30:06] Um, my father used to joke that he wanted to have like a fifties kind of house and leave

[00:30:12] it to beaver kind of family, like all the time.

[00:30:15] But the way he went about doing it was very not, it was more American horror story than,

[00:30:22] you know, American pie.

[00:30:23] Yeah.

[00:30:26] Oh man.

[00:30:28] Uh, sorry if I keep going when, when I start going about this shit, I don't, I honestly,

[00:30:32] I get nervous about what the other person's going to say.

[00:30:35] So I just keep going.

[00:30:36] That's yeah.

[00:30:37] And then that's why I don't stop.

[00:30:38] No, I don't want you to stop.

[00:30:40] I want you to just get it all out, man.

[00:30:42] Cause, um, not just for you, but for all of us listening.

[00:30:45] I mean, we, we need to hear this truth that this, this is not, you're not an isolated incident.

[00:30:52] You know, these are stories that we're hearing about, uh, with the SBC, obviously in the Catholic

[00:30:58] church and not only are the stories real, but they were covered up like systemically.

[00:31:04] And so, yeah, absolutely.

[00:31:06] The more we can shed light on this, I think the better it is.

[00:31:11] It's bad enough that sexual assaults and rape happen inside the domain of church.

[00:31:26] And it happens way more than we've even heard.

[00:31:31] But instead of seeking justice and healing, the leaders of these systems have created a

[00:31:37] haven and a sanctuary for abusive men and women, mostly men, of course.

[00:31:44] Men, especially white men can do terrible things and they can come back.

[00:31:53] They always can come back from these terrible things, abuse, rape, assault.

[00:32:01] Conversely, the victims of their crimes are themselves criminalized and marginalized.

[00:32:09] And worse, they are blamed.

[00:32:12] And again, I'm not saying or implying that all Christians are, um, overtly pro-assault or pro-abuse.

[00:32:25] I'm saying they might find such things distasteful.

[00:32:31] They may even hate it, but they're willing to cover up for the men guilty of it.

[00:32:38] If you've got a story of a church that found out this shit was happening and immediately shut it down, called the authorities,

[00:32:47] prosecuted, testified against the pastor or elder or just, you know, the dad who was doing this shit,

[00:32:55] I would love to hear it.

[00:32:57] I kind of need to hear it.

[00:32:58] So I don't completely lose all faith in every church.

[00:33:05] And of course, it doesn't happen at every church that we know of.

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:15] At best, these people turn a blind eye to the shit when it happens.

[00:33:23] And sometimes these people vote for men like this to be president of the United States.

[00:33:31] Yeah.

[00:33:31] True story.

[00:33:33] And the Bible is always the justification.

[00:33:38] Just like it was in several episodes of this podcast for Krista Brown a few weeks ago,

[00:33:44] who blew the whistle on the SBC cover-ups and herself was a victim.

[00:33:51] Abusers in the church use Bible verses to justify their actions.

[00:33:56] And those verses are there.

[00:33:57] It's vague enough to work to the point where you could argue it's godly to sexually abuse someone.

[00:34:07] They don't call it sexual abuse.

[00:34:09] They call it serving God and his messengers.

[00:34:15] Yeah, the Bible is so vague that one could use it to support just about anything.

[00:34:20] Slavery, abuse, genocide, misogyny, patriarchy.

[00:34:26] And this does happen.

[00:34:28] The KKK used the Bible.

[00:34:32] Christians supporting Trump.

[00:34:34] Tons of Bible verses.

[00:34:35] Now, we can argue how well these verses are applied.

[00:34:40] But it's almost a moot point because these religious beliefs are quote-unquote deeply held, maybe,

[00:34:50] and sanctioned by a democracy that values freedom of religion.

[00:34:55] So, hypothetically, I'm saying that in quotes.

[00:35:04] If your religion tells you it's okay to abuse children and women and men,

[00:35:15] follow that to its logical conclusion in a democracy that has freedom of religion.

[00:35:24] At what point is this religion?

[00:35:27] And at what point is it a crime?

[00:35:33] In church, in too many churches, it's religion.

[00:35:41] Trump is Christianity.

[00:35:44] I think one of the biggest reasons that the church kind of made my mind and my thinking worse when I was being abused was that

[00:36:04] I was waiting for Jesus or God or the Holy Spirit to come save me.

[00:36:13] Because I was constantly told he was going to.

[00:36:16] I was told that I was a child of God.

[00:36:19] But then, because of the way that I was taught by my father,

[00:36:22] I started to believe that I was not being saved because of myself.

[00:36:28] Like, in being abused, I was doing something wrong still.

[00:36:34] So, I didn't think that I was worthy in all of that somehow to be saved by God.

[00:36:42] And it really, really fucked me up with, like, this loathing that I have for myself.

[00:36:47] And, like, realizing all of that together as an adult in therapy and stuff has helped me grow and heal.

[00:36:55] But it's been also just this horrible, like, feeling of, like, rubbing lemon juice in a wound, you know?

[00:37:01] Because it's just, like, you're realizing it for what it is.

[00:37:07] Yeah, that's the main reason I became an acolyte was because I wanted to get closer to God because I wanted shit to end.

[00:37:16] And that's not just the sexual abuse I was facing.

[00:37:18] That was, like, just, like, the hitting and, like, the manipulation shit going on at home.

[00:37:23] Because even though I didn't realize, like, the grooming and the extent of the manipulation,

[00:37:29] I could still see that some of it was wrong by the age of, like, 11, you know?

[00:37:33] Like, the things that he was saying wasn't adding up sometimes.

[00:37:37] And, like, I just didn't understand.

[00:37:42] Just things weren't adding up, you know?

[00:37:44] Yeah.

[00:37:46] I mean, to your credit, you were able to start to see that.

[00:37:49] But I feel like there are a lot of people that go well into adulthood before they start to see the cracks and the flaws and the reasoning and logic.

[00:38:03] Well, that was, like, one of the fucked up things about going to church with, like, the way that he was was honoring that mother and that father.

[00:38:14] That's, like, the biggest thing that was at our house.

[00:38:15] And no matter what he did, we had to do that.

[00:38:18] No matter what he did, I had to believe that our best interests were at heart with him.

[00:38:24] And I did.

[00:38:25] So, to myself, I would always make excuses for him and defend him.

[00:38:30] And it got to the point where I would do that for everything.

[00:38:34] And that was one of the biggest reasons I didn't realize shit to my wife because my wife pointed that out to me.

[00:38:39] I didn't even realize I was doing it.

[00:38:41] My wife was like, you're defending the shit he did to you.

[00:38:44] And I'm like, what are you talking about?

[00:38:45] It was just like, you're saying, like, he was just my dad.

[00:38:48] He learned it from the Bible.

[00:38:49] He just did this.

[00:38:51] And I was just like, once I realized that, it was just a whirlwind of shit, you know?

[00:38:57] And this was when you said your wife, but you were, like, 16 when you were.

[00:39:04] Yeah, I met my wife when I was 16.

[00:39:06] She, uh, I'm from Baltimore, Maryland, but I was living in Hagerstown, Maryland at the time.

[00:39:12] And I got a random friend request on MySpace when I was 16.

[00:39:17] And she lives in Wisconsin, in Kenosha, which is really close to Illinois.

[00:39:22] And I just accepted it.

[00:39:24] I was like, who the hell is this?

[00:39:26] She was a year older than me.

[00:39:27] Then I thought I was a fake person.

[00:39:29] I thought I was one of my buddies from high school fucking with me because she was beautiful.

[00:39:32] I'm like, who the hell, Andrew?

[00:39:34] And she still says that to this day.

[00:39:36] She's like, remember you thought I was Andrew?

[00:39:39] And, uh, so yeah, she just randomly added me.

[00:39:41] I was like, who is this?

[00:39:42] She's like, I don't know you.

[00:39:43] I just thought you looked cute.

[00:39:44] I was like, oh, cool.

[00:39:46] So we started talking and eventually she came down to stay with me and she met my father.

[00:39:53] And she realized he was legitimately and clinically crazy.

[00:39:58] And, uh, all the shit he did to us and pulled me out of there within like four months.

[00:40:02] Uh, when I was 17 and I've been in Wisconsin ever since.

[00:40:06] And I'm 33 now.

[00:40:08] So we've been together for 17 years and it's been a lot.

[00:40:13] And it's just a weird happenstance of a random friend request on my space.

[00:40:17] If she never added me, dude, I don't know where I'd be.

[00:40:19] Honestly, we've told each other this and I believe in a hundred percent I'd be dead.

[00:40:24] I would have taken my life by now.

[00:40:26] One hundred percent.

[00:40:26] I know that, um, she saved my life for sure.

[00:40:30] Um, she said that to me too, but I don't think she knows what I mean by that and how serious

[00:40:34] I am.

[00:40:35] She, that woman has fucking saved me in more ways than she knows.

[00:40:40] Oh, wow.

[00:40:41] I mean, does she joke about it that she saved you?

[00:40:44] Like she can hold it over on you?

[00:40:47] No, but she does joke.

[00:40:49] I think that she just knows how much it fucked me up.

[00:40:51] So she doesn't, but she does joke about how crazy my dad was, which is, I'm glad we're

[00:40:57] at a point.

[00:40:57] We can do that.

[00:40:58] Well, I asked because you're known to have this very keen, sharp sense of humor, uh, kind

[00:41:05] of a dark sense of humor even.

[00:41:07] Um, and so I think, I think that I'd be fine with it if she did it.

[00:41:11] I think she's just worried that too soon, too close to, to everything.

[00:41:16] I mean, that's, but, um, man, you know what?

[00:41:18] I might, I might float the idea to her though.

[00:41:21] I'm like, let's just open up the floodgates.

[00:41:22] Cause you know, dark humor is the best for me.

[00:41:25] Well, it can be.

[00:41:26] It's the most therapeutic for me for sure.

[00:41:28] Yeah.

[00:41:29] I'm beginning to understand it now.

[00:41:32] Um, cause I have, why?

[00:41:34] Well, I have a dark sense of humor too, but, um, yeah, but we all have different ways

[00:41:39] to get there.

[00:41:40] Um, yeah.

[00:41:42] If you not, if you, if you could hear some of the stuff I cut from the podcast now, because

[00:41:46] it was too dark for you to understand even more.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:51] Because I, you know, we, we've, we mentioned it earlier, but you're, you're usually the

[00:41:55] funny guy, uh, on, uh, on the old podcast and the communication station.

[00:42:02] Um, yeah, I still, I will still plug it.

[00:42:04] I am the old, the, all the shit I did on there.

[00:42:07] I still love it.

[00:42:07] Yeah.

[00:42:07] I am the funny guy on there.

[00:42:09] All the voices, the quips.

[00:42:12] Yeah.

[00:42:12] I mean, it's, uh, yeah.

[00:42:14] Yeah.

[00:42:15] And so, and I know, I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

[00:42:18] I think it's a good thing because to me, no, I appreciate it.

[00:42:21] Yeah.

[00:42:21] That means a lot to me.

[00:42:22] No, to me, it feels like you're taking control.

[00:42:25] You're, you're pointing out ironies and, and being satirical about the things you're talking

[00:42:30] about.

[00:42:31] Um, not just as a way of coping, but to just, I don't know, just to say it doesn't have

[00:42:37] power over you anymore to say that you recognize the ridiculousness.

[00:42:41] Cause that's what humor is, right?

[00:42:43] It's ridiculousness.

[00:42:44] Absolutely.

[00:42:45] Times 10, you know?

[00:42:47] And so.

[00:42:49] I never thought about it like that.

[00:42:50] That does make sense.

[00:42:51] And I, I, I, maybe that is why it feels so good to do it.

[00:42:55] Like just to make fun of things all the time like that, especially all the really hard

[00:42:58] shit.

[00:42:59] And I think that that's as a kid, that's why I probably developed a sense of humor so much.

[00:43:04] I mean, I also, I talked about this in other places, but I know that it also was just

[00:43:09] to save my own ass sometimes.

[00:43:11] Cause if I was making my dad laugh, then I wasn't getting the belt, that kind of shit.

[00:43:15] You know what I mean?

[00:43:16] What?

[00:43:16] So that was a very common thing I hear like comedians say too.

[00:43:20] Yeah.

[00:43:21] Yeah.

[00:43:21] And I, I completely understand that and relate to that because it was the case for sure.

[00:43:26] That's why I did voices.

[00:43:27] I know that for sure.

[00:43:28] Cause silly sounds are the best kind of sounds to make when you're trying to be funny, you

[00:43:32] know?

[00:43:32] And if you could do the Beatles, you know, then your dad's going to, your dad's going to put

[00:43:38] the belt down and not come running after you, you know?

[00:43:41] Yeah.

[00:43:41] A liver puddley.

[00:43:43] Yeah.

[00:43:45] Right.

[00:43:46] Dad, you can't chase me when you're 64.

[00:43:51] It takes, it takes a musical ear, I think to hear accents, you know, usually people who

[00:43:58] have good accents have a, have a good ear for music.

[00:44:01] Like, it's so funny you say that because I could never really sing right back in the

[00:44:07] day when I met my wife, but I could do voices.

[00:44:09] I could always do voices and impressions.

[00:44:11] But you can hear.

[00:44:12] And then like, and I could sing in impressions.

[00:44:15] I could not sing in my own voice.

[00:44:17] And then like my wife has an amazing voice, dude.

[00:44:20] Like it's so incredible.

[00:44:21] I love her voice.

[00:44:22] She has my favorite singing voice of all time.

[00:44:24] I'm trying to get her to record stuff.

[00:44:26] But anyway, she like taught me to like sing from my stomach and all that stuff.

[00:44:31] And then like, and I, once I applied the ability of like doing voices to that, then I could

[00:44:37] sing.

[00:44:38] So you saying that is so funny to me because I've never really heard anyone talk about

[00:44:41] that, of how impressions can help the singing.

[00:44:44] You know what I mean?

[00:44:45] Yeah.

[00:44:45] I think they're related because you have to be able to hear the nuances of a, of an

[00:44:49] accent.

[00:44:51] Right.

[00:44:51] And the pitch and stuff.

[00:44:52] The way the, the flow of, of it.

[00:44:54] And I feel like people who are musical, um, do it or it's easier for them.

[00:45:01] But interestingly, you said you couldn't sing in your own voice.

[00:45:04] And that, to me, that sounds like you didn't know your own voice at the time.

[00:45:10] That's, that's another thing because I, sir, have borderline personality disorder because

[00:45:17] of the shit I went through with my father and the church and all that stuff.

[00:45:20] And, uh, I took on characteristics of my father for a long time, including some of his narcissistic

[00:45:26] traits, which I had to go to therapy to unlearn.

[00:45:30] And I didn't realize I hadn't learned.

[00:45:31] And it fucked up my marriage for a little while.

[00:45:33] I can be honest and say that, uh, I had to go to therapy to unlearn them.

[00:45:39] But, um, I didn't know my own voice.

[00:45:42] I, my, I had like 90 laughs for years because I would laugh like everyone else that I met

[00:45:47] because I was like, that's a funny laugh.

[00:45:49] That's a good laugh.

[00:45:50] And I wasn't doing it intentionally.

[00:45:52] I wasn't trying to be like, yoink, I like it.

[00:45:55] I was just like, I like this person.

[00:45:57] This person is cool to me.

[00:45:58] I want to be like this person.

[00:46:00] And I would just do that.

[00:46:02] And yeah.

[00:46:03] And I, I mentioned it before, but like, I had this huge breakthrough in therapy where I,

[00:46:08] I realized what my favorite color was and it broke me down.

[00:46:13] Like I cried because my whole life, I thought it was red because my best friend in middle

[00:46:17] school, Brandon, his favorite color was red.

[00:46:20] And I thought he was the coolest dude.

[00:46:22] So it was like, red's my favorite color.

[00:46:24] And then I, I mentioned how much I liked orange when I was a kid, like drawing it, the orange

[00:46:30] crayon on a piece of white paper, like the way it looked mesmerized me.

[00:46:33] And the Michelangelo is my favorite Ninja turtle because of the orange.

[00:46:37] And he was funny.

[00:46:38] And I was like, I think I like orange.

[00:46:40] And I was like, I love orange.

[00:46:41] Orange is my favorite color.

[00:46:43] And I just started saying it over and over.

[00:46:44] I started crying.

[00:46:45] And I was like this, I'm going to mention it later, but I have a trans child and that's

[00:46:51] a huge or way bigger deal to realize your gender identity and stuff.

[00:46:55] But because of the things I went through and stuff, it was a huge deal to me.

[00:46:59] And like, I'd immediately shut it off because of realizing like the difference with my son

[00:47:04] and stuff.

[00:47:05] So like I, my brain never lets me like have a full moment.

[00:47:09] You know what I mean?

[00:47:09] Where I'm just like, nope, that's, that's dumb.

[00:47:12] Let it go.

[00:47:14] I'm always comparing my shit to other people.

[00:47:16] And I think that that's another thing I'm working on with that.

[00:47:19] You know what I mean?

[00:47:20] That maybe could relate it to church.

[00:47:22] I don't know.

[00:47:23] Because we're always like judging others.

[00:47:27] It's related to the patterns that we learned in church, right?

[00:47:32] Yeah.

[00:47:33] It's that you're not, you're not supposed to celebrate yourself.

[00:47:38] Yeah.

[00:47:39] See, I even did it there.

[00:47:40] I could, I could have just not even mentioned my son till later.

[00:47:43] I could have just like, let that be.

[00:47:45] Cause I feel like that is a pretty significant moment for me.

[00:47:47] Sure.

[00:47:48] But I, even then I had to undermine it.

[00:47:50] I can't not let it happen.

[00:47:51] But you did, you did state it that this was a breakthrough and it was big.

[00:47:57] So.

[00:47:58] Yeah.

[00:47:58] You, you did both.

[00:48:00] You, so.

[00:48:01] Yeah.

[00:48:01] That's progress.

[00:48:04] We're getting there, man.

[00:48:05] When you go one way and then the other way you end up back in the middle ground, we're

[00:48:08] working our way there.

[00:48:10] But I'm going to nudge.

[00:48:10] It's better than being on the other side.

[00:48:12] I'm going to nudge you forward a little bit though, because I think, because you do

[00:48:16] recognize the significance of it.

[00:48:18] Right.

[00:48:20] I appreciate that.

[00:48:22] Yeah.

[00:48:22] And, you know, and I even think you celebrating that and, and really exploring that will make

[00:48:29] you a better parent to, to any child because you're, you're finding out who you are.

[00:48:37] You know, you know, our job as parents is to help bring these kids up into adulthood

[00:48:42] and send them out into the world.

[00:48:45] If you're giving the example of someone who's, you know, self-actualized and happy about themselves,

[00:48:51] I think that's, that's good.

[00:48:53] So, so fucking orange, man.

[00:48:57] Yeah.

[00:48:57] Hell yeah.

[00:48:58] Yeah.

[00:48:58] Yeah, dude.

[00:48:59] I got an orange watch.

[00:49:00] I got an orange phone.

[00:49:02] I got orange, everything now.

[00:49:03] Like within a month I was like orange, but no, it's, it's, it's been a wild ride with the

[00:49:10] BPD and the BPD is honestly one of the reasons why I feel like the, I'm not on the excommunication

[00:49:17] station anymore because with BPD, it causes me to have an issue with how I express myself

[00:49:24] and my emotions and stuff.

[00:49:25] Like when I'm upset or frustrated, I can lash out to a degree.

[00:49:29] You know what I mean?

[00:49:30] And BPD is bipolar disorder.

[00:49:33] Oh no, this one's borderline personality.

[00:49:36] Okay.

[00:49:36] Good to clarify.

[00:49:38] Yeah.

[00:49:38] But, but I do have both.

[00:49:40] Okay.

[00:49:40] They're both BPD.

[00:49:43] Okay.

[00:49:43] Yeah.

[00:49:43] Yeah.

[00:49:44] They both are referred to as BPD.

[00:49:45] Yeah.

[00:49:47] Borderline personality disorder.

[00:49:48] Okay.

[00:49:50] Yeah.

[00:49:50] With borderline personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, you have, you go through

[00:49:59] such a traumatic response that you like do whatever you can to survive that you take on

[00:50:05] traits from like everyone else and whatever is around you and stuff like that.

[00:50:08] Um, and you don't really develop an emotional, uh, process at all.

[00:50:17] And I think your, your frontal lobe doesn't develop correctly.

[00:50:21] If I'm correct, I think it doesn't form all the way.

[00:50:24] Um, and when that happens, it causes you to, like I said, you don't elicit your emotions

[00:50:33] correctly.

[00:50:33] If I'm using the correct words, you're trying to sound like a smart person right now.

[00:50:38] Um, but like, uh, there were things that were happening behind the scenes at the excommunication

[00:50:44] station where, uh, I was, uh, we were having conversations and discussions about pretty emotional

[00:50:50] and personal things and boundaries got crossed, uh, on both sides.

[00:50:56] And I kind of, uh, went into a fight or flight response and I, I don't blame my BPD.

[00:51:03] I blame myself because I'm responsible for my own reactions and my own actions, but I know

[00:51:09] the cause of it was probably my BPD, but I still am the one that pulled the trigger on

[00:51:13] it.

[00:51:14] Um, and I said, I quit and I backed out of the group chat because I was just emotionally,

[00:51:19] I didn't know what to do.

[00:51:21] I literally was panicking.

[00:51:22] I was shaking.

[00:51:23] That's how I get when I'm like confronted with like emotional stuff.

[00:51:30] Um, and, uh, a day went by with me texting Chrissy, uh, one of my other co-hosts on the show

[00:51:36] and being like, I can't do this anymore.

[00:51:38] Uh, I'm really upset about this.

[00:51:41] I don't know what to do.

[00:51:42] Um, I'm done.

[00:51:44] I think I'm done.

[00:51:45] And then the next day I tried to take it back, but the ship had sailed and, um, due to

[00:51:52] my lashing out and stuff like that.

[00:51:54] I mean, it wasn't even like, I wasn't calling them names or anything, but, but I was being

[00:51:58] like, I was just being, when I lash out, basically I'm continuously defending myself.

[00:52:05] If that makes sense.

[00:52:06] I'm being like, I've done this and I've done this and I've done this.

[00:52:10] I've done this for us.

[00:52:11] Can't you understand?

[00:52:11] I've done this.

[00:52:12] It's not me being like, fuck you asshole.

[00:52:15] You know, it's me being like, can't you see what I've done?

[00:52:18] I love you guys.

[00:52:19] Don't you understand how much I love you guys?

[00:52:20] And it gets overbearing and I understand that.

[00:52:23] So in the end, um, instead of like arguing about it and being like, Hey, I'm going through

[00:52:31] some stuff right now.

[00:52:32] Cause I am, there's some personal stuff in my life.

[00:52:34] I'm not talking about right now that I am going through and they knew that, but instead

[00:52:39] of arguing about it or in a way, I felt like I was begging and I didn't want to do that.

[00:52:47] I didn't want to humiliate them by me doing that or myself.

[00:52:51] And I just said, I think I'm just going to be done.

[00:52:53] And I ended up quitting the show.

[00:52:56] Um, but I do believe that if I did not have BPD, then none of that would have happened.

[00:53:02] And I do believe that if I was not mentally ill, none of that would have happened.

[00:53:09] And I know I can't live my life going through saying what ifs and stuff like that, but that

[00:53:15] is the case I feel like.

[00:53:17] And, um, in the end, I will always, always take responsibility for the words that come out

[00:53:23] of my mouth or the words that I type.

[00:53:26] I am an adult.

[00:53:27] I am a grown man.

[00:53:28] I can stop if I want to, and if not, if I want to, but if I, if I'm pushing hard enough,

[00:53:34] I can stop.

[00:53:35] You know what I mean?

[00:53:37] And my emotions and my, my emotions got the best of me and I didn't, uh, say what I needed

[00:53:45] to say in the right way.

[00:53:47] Everything I said, I will stand by.

[00:53:50] And if they listen to this, they'll know what I mean.

[00:53:52] Uh, I stand by the things I said and I, I don't feel bad about that.

[00:53:57] I, but the way I went about it, I feel bad.

[00:54:01] Yeah.

[00:54:02] Does that make sense?

[00:54:03] We were talking before we started recording about how coming out of any kind of high control

[00:54:11] religion doesn't heal you.

[00:54:15] So you come out still broken, you know, you, you come out and I'm not talking about just

[00:54:20] you.

[00:54:20] I'm talking about me.

[00:54:21] I'm talking about everybody listening.

[00:54:22] Right.

[00:54:23] We, we come out of this, you know, having figured something out that we don't want to

[00:54:28] be in it anymore, but we bring with us patterns of behavior.

[00:54:32] And, you know, you've mentioned fight or flight, you know, just the way we respond to things

[00:54:37] and the way we interpret things still needs to be, I don't know, developed as we, as we

[00:54:43] move forward out away from, uh, Christian stuff.

[00:54:48] Um, or, or, or evangelical conservative fundamentalist stuff.

[00:54:53] And so it's no wonder that, you know, there's a lot of conflict in the deconstruction world

[00:54:58] and, um, it's a big tent with a lot of broken people because, um, that's just how it, how

[00:55:08] it is.

[00:55:09] I mean, I'm really glad to have met all three of you, you know, I'm really glad to have, um, heard

[00:55:15] some of your stories and, you know, I was, I really want to get Chrissy on to talk about

[00:55:19] Vanguard because that is a, that is a place, man.

[00:55:23] Um, but yeah, I don't, I, I, I hope that you guys can find a way back to at least being

[00:55:32] friends because what you created was so powerful and what you created was so meaningful for a

[00:55:37] lot of people.

[00:55:37] And, and, um, I know it came at great costs to all of you individually too.

[00:55:42] So it's, it's finding that balance.

[00:55:44] Yeah.

[00:55:46] Yeah.

[00:55:47] And that's what, that's what hurts the most about it.

[00:55:50] If I'm going to be honest, it's like, um, is how close I was to the two of them.

[00:55:57] Um, yeah, like, uh, they meant a lot to me.

[00:56:05] They did.

[00:56:06] And, uh, they kind of just like, I know it's probably because of their own boundaries

[00:56:10] of mental health, but they kind of just dropped me and I have, I've, uh, really bad abandonment

[00:56:16] issues that goes hand in hand with BPD.

[00:56:19] Uh, so it's been really, really hard to not like be bitter about it, but I have a lot of

[00:56:26] love for them.

[00:56:27] Um, so it's helped with it for sure.

[00:56:31] Uh, but yeah, being, it's not been hard to not be bitter about it.

[00:56:37] Cause like I said, I do love them and I still do.

[00:56:40] Uh, and I've been trying to look at it as that, no, they're hurting probably too.

[00:56:44] Yeah.

[00:56:45] I know that.

[00:56:47] And, uh, they just need to have some space for now.

[00:56:49] And I'm trying to respect that.

[00:56:51] Uh, cause that's another thing that's hard for me too, is to respect that space when I'm

[00:56:55] like, when I'm missing someone that I know that, you know, it's probably upset with me,

[00:57:01] you know, with BPD, it's like, I need to make sure it's okay.

[00:57:04] I need to make sure they're okay.

[00:57:05] I need to make sure it's okay right now.

[00:57:06] Or it's like, my anxiety is horrible because of it.

[00:57:09] And like, it's a learning experience for sure.

[00:57:13] But I, I hope that in the future I can even go back there or something, you know, but I,

[00:57:21] I want it to be on good terms and not like, I just want there to be able to be open discussion

[00:57:27] about things and just, I don't know.

[00:57:30] I just want them to be my friends again, I guess in the end, you know, it's, it fucking

[00:57:37] sucks, man.

[00:57:39] Cause, uh, like you said, there was, it was three and a half years, man, of, uh, something

[00:57:46] we built together.

[00:57:46] And I shared a lot on that show.

[00:57:49] I shared a lot of deep shit and to sit there with them and Chaz do the same and Chrissy

[00:57:56] do the same.

[00:57:57] And, you know, we'd be that open with each other.

[00:57:59] It meant a lot to me.

[00:58:00] So I'll never not plug it and I'll never, I'll never talk shit about it.

[00:58:07] Uh, because of what it means to me and what it means to them and what they mean to me.

[00:58:12] So I'll always promote it.

[00:58:14] So I, I'll say even now, go check out the excommunication station because if you grew

[00:58:21] up in this shit, man, it opens a lot of doors and picks up a lot of rocks to show a lot

[00:58:26] of those bugs that were hiding under there that you didn't even know were.

[00:58:29] Cause we all got earwigs that we didn't know about, man.

[00:58:31] And you can throw those rocks.

[00:58:36] Just not at the children at the gates of the city that disrespected their parents.

[00:58:39] No, no.

[00:58:40] In the other direction.

[00:58:44] Throw them at God.

[00:58:47] Right.

[00:58:47] Just up in the air.

[00:58:48] But then, you know, what goes up must come down.

[00:58:51] Don't do it straight up.

[00:58:52] Um, unless you're like one of those really mean evangelicals, then just go for it.

[00:58:59] Just whip it.

[00:59:00] Pick it, pick a direction, pick a church.

[00:59:04] Right.

[00:59:05] Stained glass window.

[00:59:09] They're always saying they need new ones anyway.

[00:59:11] That's what the fucking tidings were.

[00:59:15] But no, I, I do hope that one day we can make up and just, uh, move on and be cool again.

[00:59:26] Cause it does suck.

[00:59:28] It hurts.

[00:59:28] They were like my brother and sister.

[00:59:30] And I felt that when I was on, um, a couple episodes, it felt like I was being invited into

[00:59:36] like a, like a family.

[00:59:38] Yeah.

[00:59:38] And so, yeah.

[00:59:41] Well, that was another thing too, is, uh, I can be honest and say this.

[00:59:45] I don't have, I didn't have enough of my own boundaries.

[00:59:48] I, I, I don't build a lot of boundaries because of the shit I went through.

[00:59:52] I'm always worried that if I build a boundary, someone's going to get offended or want to

[00:59:56] leave.

[00:59:56] And I don't ever want that.

[00:59:58] So looking back on our relationship, I realized there was a lot of places where I should have

[01:00:02] my own as well.

[01:00:04] You know what I mean?

[01:00:04] So the whole thing has been a learning experience for sure.

[01:00:08] And that's what, that was another reason I said, like open discussion and stuff.

[01:00:12] If we were able to do things going forward, you know, but yeah, I love you guys.

[01:00:18] If you're listening to this, I always do, always will always do.

[01:00:22] I was going to say always have, but I felt like I was lying.

[01:00:25] Cause I didn't know that until I was 30.

[01:00:27] I think we understand that message received.

[01:00:41] We have hope.

[01:00:42] Hope.

[01:00:43] I hope we do hope.

[01:00:44] We have hope and we try to hold onto it, but sometimes we can't undo our past actions

[01:00:53] and just be turned to the way things were.

[01:00:57] And because we come out of evangelical or high control religion, we begin this part of our

[01:01:04] lives in deconstruction or exvangelicalness, whatever we're calling it.

[01:01:08] We begin this part of our lives broken to varying degrees.

[01:01:15] I considered editing out the details of Donovan's situation with his former co-hosts,

[01:01:21] Chrissy and Chaz, because we don't get to hear from them.

[01:01:24] And I respect them both greatly.

[01:01:27] But I left it in because their conflict reminds us that it's not always about who is right or

[01:01:33] who is wrong.

[01:01:37] Other than what Donovan just said, I have no idea what happened.

[01:01:40] I just know three people are hurting because of the past and because of the patterns developed

[01:01:47] inside Christian faith.

[01:01:51] I want so badly for them to be friends again.

[01:01:55] I hope it will happen given time and reflection, reconciliation.

[01:02:03] It'll probably be a long, complicated process.

[01:02:09] But hey, here's to hope.

[01:02:15] Then I think she endures verbal abuse for a season and she endures perhaps being smacked

[01:02:22] one night and then she seeks help from the church.

[01:02:24] There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill bus.

[01:02:28] And by God's grace, it'll be a mountain by the time we're done.

[01:02:31] You either get on the bus or you get run over by the bus.

[01:02:33] Those are the options.

[01:02:34] There's nothing holy about writing discrimination into the law.

[01:02:39] And I am tired of communities of faith being weaponized because the only time religious

[01:02:46] freedom is invoked is in the name of bigotry and discrimination.

[01:02:50] I'm tired of it.

[01:02:52] Hi, I'm Nate, producer and co-host on the Full Mutuality podcast.

[01:02:57] Let's talk about inequality.

[01:02:58] It's everywhere.

[01:03:00] Whether it's rooted in race, gender, ability or sexuality, there's bound to be an imbalance

[01:03:04] in power, influence, representation and access.

[01:03:08] On our show, we want to explore areas of religion, culture and society where justice is needed

[01:03:14] in order to bring about true mutuality.

[01:03:16] I hope you'll join us for some enlightening, fun and at times uncomfortable conversations

[01:03:21] as we envision a world where everyone can live free from systems and structures that

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[01:03:36] Subscribe today and we'll see you on the Full Mutuality podcast.

[01:03:43] Subscribe to this podcast by visiting dauntless.fm.

[01:03:47] So moving forward, though, you told me you have some plans in the works to still kind of

[01:03:53] keep your voice out there and your perspective.

[01:03:57] Yeah.

[01:03:58] So I have a couple of ideas, but two of them I'm actively working on right now.

[01:04:03] I'm recording a podcast.

[01:04:05] It's called the it's called Jesus Stole Our Movies and it's about movies that we weren't

[01:04:12] allowed to watch as kids because of Christianity.

[01:04:15] So, you know, you got your Power Rangers, you know, I could that's this is the fun thing.

[01:04:22] My father was crazy.

[01:04:24] So I can say that, guys.

[01:04:26] I'm not saying it as a derogatory term.

[01:04:28] I have clinical diagnosis.

[01:04:32] Yes.

[01:04:32] That's my father was crazy.

[01:04:34] And he would have weeks where he'd be like, we can watch Mullrats and basketball.

[01:04:39] And then other weeks where he was like, you're not allowed to watch Willow.

[01:04:46] So, yeah, I was allowed to watch Power Rangers.

[01:04:49] But my co-host, Zach, he's from the Escapist Room is another movie podcast where him and his

[01:04:55] sister watch movies.

[01:04:56] He wasn't allowed to watch a lot of these because his parents were more strict on that regard.

[01:05:01] So we're going through and watching all these movies that he wasn't allowed to watch and

[01:05:05] some that I wasn't allowed to watch.

[01:05:07] Like, I was allowed to watch The Birdcage.

[01:05:09] That was for more obvious reasons.

[01:05:12] Because there's gay people in it.

[01:05:13] Yes.

[01:05:15] And I've still never seen it.

[01:05:16] So we're going to watch it for it eventually.

[01:05:17] It's a great movie.

[01:05:19] I know.

[01:05:19] I'm stoked.

[01:05:20] I love Nathan Lane and Robin Williams.

[01:05:23] But no, this is called Jesus Stole Our Movies.

[01:05:26] And we're going to be watching movies we weren't allowed to watch as kids and breaking

[01:05:29] them down.

[01:05:30] And we're going to be going to Christian websites and making fun of why they said you're not

[01:05:34] allowed to.

[01:05:35] Oh, hell yeah.

[01:05:36] So the first episode we just finished is of the 1978 classic Halloween by John Carpenter.

[01:05:43] Scary movies, yeah.

[01:05:44] It's my favorite horror movie of all time.

[01:05:47] So we tackled that first because he had never seen it.

[01:05:50] So it was cool.

[01:05:51] There's research done that a lot of those horror movies of the 70s and 80s were pushed

[01:05:57] by conservative Christian groups because who dies in those movies?

[01:06:02] You have sex, you're dying.

[01:06:04] You drink alcohol, you're going to die.

[01:06:06] It's usually the virginal, innocent people that survive.

[01:06:10] Right.

[01:06:11] And you know the fucked up part about that is John Carpenter said that they didn't mean

[01:06:15] to do that.

[01:06:16] Yeah.

[01:06:17] They were like, that was unintentional.

[01:06:18] It wasn't his intention, but the Christian groups definitely were like keeping an eye

[01:06:22] on that.

[01:06:24] Yeah, they co-opt everything.

[01:06:26] They see an in, they're like, it's ours.

[01:06:29] Mike Myers is Jesus.

[01:06:33] I actually did some AI artwork for this episode and I have some Jesuses, Michael Myers.

[01:06:41] But I'm also working on another podcast with my wife.

[01:06:45] It's called Laughing With You, Not At You.

[01:06:47] And it's about parenting with mental illness and stuff and just growing up as nerds.

[01:06:53] So it's really cool.

[01:06:54] We used to do episodes a few years ago, but due to timing, mental illness and stuff, we

[01:07:00] weren't able to continue.

[01:07:01] But we're picking it up again.

[01:07:03] And next month that'll be out.

[01:07:05] October 24th for Jesus Stole Our Movies.

[01:07:09] But I have two other ideas too.

[01:07:11] I asked you about one of them.

[01:07:14] It was about having people come on and talk about their favorite song.

[01:07:21] And then it's, I want to have people come on and talk about their favorite song.

[01:07:25] And I would do a lot of research on it and tell them everything I could about it.

[01:07:29] Then we would listen to it and break it down.

[01:07:31] What was their favorite parts about it and stuff.

[01:07:34] And then I would possibly play a song that I dug that I thought was similar.

[01:07:39] That's, that would be the end of it.

[01:07:40] Yeah, that'd be fun.

[01:07:41] And you said you'd be, you'd come on that, right, sir?

[01:07:44] It's going to be called Full On Frisian.

[01:07:48] The hard thing would be to pick one song.

[01:07:50] Like, shit, man.

[01:07:51] Oh, hell yeah.

[01:07:52] I know.

[01:07:53] That's why I wanted to give you some time.

[01:07:57] And Frisian, as far as I know, is the sensation you get when you get goosebumps when you're listening

[01:08:02] to good music.

[01:08:03] So that's why it's called Full On Frisian.

[01:08:05] All right.

[01:08:06] Yeah, let's do that.

[01:08:07] And what were you saying?

[01:08:09] Is any of the angle like deconstruction too?

[01:08:13] Or does the song just have to be favorite in general?

[01:08:16] No, this is just all out music.

[01:08:20] Because I do want to do deconstruction stuff still.

[01:08:23] That's why we're going to do Jesus Stole our movies.

[01:08:25] But this one, I want to just, this one I'm like, we're going to do just everything.

[01:08:29] Yeah, I'm a music nerd.

[01:08:30] And me and some friends have some ideas of a podcast of breaking down the actual musical

[01:08:38] parts of songs and what makes them work and not work.

[01:08:42] Well, hit me up if you do that, because I would love to be on there for that, sir.

[01:08:46] No, I want to do it for all music, because that broadens it.

[01:08:50] And I'd much rather hear your favorite Rush song than your favorite Newsboys.

[01:08:55] I actually never listen to the Newsboys, because in the 90s, I swore off all Christian music.

[01:09:00] I was like, fuck it.

[01:09:01] And I was still a Christian.

[01:09:02] Smart.

[01:09:03] Because I'm coming out of the 80s.

[01:09:05] The 80s sucked.

[01:09:07] You had Striper.

[01:09:10] Striper.

[01:09:10] Which got worse and worse.

[01:09:11] Like, the first record was kind of a cool approximation of, like, Motley Crue.

[01:09:15] Yeah.

[01:09:15] And then it just got more hand-medally and glammy as it went.

[01:09:18] And it was just like, what the fuck are they doing, man?

[01:09:20] It's like...

[01:09:21] I know.

[01:09:22] I always compare them to, like, Whitesnake.

[01:09:25] That's what they reminded me of.

[01:09:26] You know, they're kind of like...

[01:09:27] Yeah, man.

[01:09:28] Poison with Jesus.

[01:09:29] My mom loved Striper's Poison with Jesus.

[01:09:32] We like to call that wine.

[01:09:34] Yeah.

[01:09:36] But no, I want to do that one really bad.

[01:09:39] And then the other idea I have, which I started, but it's been really hard.

[01:09:46] It's called No One Answered.

[01:09:49] And it's a podcast about being abused and waiting for God or somebody to come help you because

[01:09:59] that's what you've been trained for and it's not happening.

[01:10:02] So, that's...

[01:10:03] It's been really hard to work on that.

[01:10:05] But I want to have other people come on it.

[01:10:07] That's my plan.

[01:10:08] The whole reason I want to do it is to have other people tell their story.

[01:10:13] So, I want to just give other people a platform, basically.

[01:10:17] Because I feel like once other people start telling their story, other people are emboldened

[01:10:21] to live their true self and break down what they went through.

[01:10:25] Because unfortunately, when you go through shit like that, it becomes part of who you are

[01:10:30] to a degree where you don't even get to decide who you are.

[01:10:33] Right.

[01:10:34] And once you start to fucking break that out of you, you rip that off of you like a fucking

[01:10:38] horrible band-aid or better yet, a fucking giant leech.

[01:10:42] You just rip that shit off.

[01:10:43] You can start to build who you are from the inside out and you start to see things like

[01:10:48] your favorite color is orange.

[01:10:50] You know?

[01:10:51] So, that's why I want to do that one.

[01:10:53] And I hope I can stomach it.

[01:10:56] Right.

[01:10:57] That'll take a lot of emotional bandwidth from you.

[01:11:01] But man, that would be so powerful.

[01:11:03] If you can get that going.

[01:11:05] Because I feel like we're just beginning this conversation, you know, with the SBC stuff

[01:11:09] coming out recently.

[01:11:12] We have the Catholic stuff, obviously.

[01:11:14] And I think we're just learning about how systemic all this was.

[01:11:20] It wasn't just one-off incidences.

[01:11:22] Right.

[01:11:23] They knew.

[01:11:24] You know, people knew about this stuff going on and did.

[01:11:26] Not only did they do nothing, they did shit to protect it.

[01:11:30] And the people, the perpetrators.

[01:11:33] Yep.

[01:11:33] And so.

[01:11:35] Yep.

[01:11:35] Yeah.

[01:11:36] No, it's fucked up.

[01:11:38] And the people that it happened to, if they are given the strength and the platform to

[01:11:44] speak out on it, then it takes the power away from the people that took your power to begin with.

[01:11:50] If that makes sense.

[01:11:52] Because that's all they did.

[01:11:53] That's where the power comes from.

[01:11:54] From them.

[01:11:54] They took it from you.

[01:11:59] That's where the power comes from.

[01:11:59] But yeah.

[01:12:01] If you want to, do you want to move on to my teenage years?

[01:12:08] Yeah.

[01:12:09] We're coming to the end of the time.

[01:12:12] But yeah.

[01:12:13] I mean.

[01:12:15] There's more.

[01:12:17] Yeah.

[01:12:18] I was just jumping all over, man.

[01:12:21] I can wrap it up really quick.

[01:12:23] How much time is left?

[01:12:24] We'll figure it out later.

[01:12:25] Just tell me.

[01:12:27] No, no.

[01:12:27] That's cool.

[01:12:27] I already had a two-hour episode earlier and it's been one of the most popular ones.

[01:12:32] So I was more trying to respect your time.

[01:12:36] No, you're cool, man.

[01:12:38] I was mostly joking anyway.

[01:12:40] My teenage years was not mostly involved in the church.

[01:12:44] After I started with the abuse I faced from my mom's friend happened from between the ages

[01:12:50] like 11 to 13.

[01:12:52] And once I was able to put a stop to that shit, I basically was kind of like trying to distance

[01:12:58] myself from the church and stuff.

[01:12:59] Not in an active way of like, I don't believe in this, but just in a way of, I want to do

[01:13:04] more fun things, that kind of stuff.

[01:13:08] And also, no one helped me.

[01:13:12] I was giving signs and basically asking for help and no one fucking did anything.

[01:13:16] So I was kind of just like, I'm done with this.

[01:13:20] So basically from 13 to when I met my wife, it was kind of touch and go.

[01:13:27] And we moved away from my home church.

[01:13:30] So we were always looking for a new place to go.

[01:13:32] My father started, quote unquote, shopping for new churches.

[01:13:36] So we would go to like a Baptist church for a little bit.

[01:13:39] And then I ended up getting baptized at one of those again, because my father thought

[01:13:43] it was a good fit.

[01:13:44] But then we moved again.

[01:13:45] And I went to like, the last church I went to was called The Living Room.

[01:13:49] It was in, it was a mega church that was in an old furniture store that had been converted.

[01:13:55] So it was The Living Room.

[01:13:57] They were so, Scott, they're so cool.

[01:14:00] It's a lot of layers there.

[01:14:01] Good name.

[01:14:04] Yeah.

[01:14:05] I remember walking there, I'm like, sons of bitches, they did it.

[01:14:09] I give it to them.

[01:14:10] That's good.

[01:14:11] Yeah.

[01:14:13] But that was one of those shitty mega churches where like the pastor had three planes and

[01:14:17] he had to sell one of them to finance the church.

[01:14:19] And he told it as a sob story to tell us why we should get the money.

[01:14:23] How do you live with two planes?

[01:14:25] Come on.

[01:14:26] Right.

[01:14:27] He was like, I just trusted in Jesus and I sold one of them planes.

[01:14:32] I was like, what?

[01:14:36] So yeah, I didn't really do a lot of church anymore as a teen.

[01:14:40] And I still was very conservative, though.

[01:14:43] I'm not going to lie.

[01:14:44] I was still very...

[01:14:45] Yeah.

[01:14:47] I still had a lot of beliefs like gay marriage.

[01:14:51] Why do they want to get married?

[01:14:52] Why do they need to get married in a church?

[01:14:54] That dumb bullshit.

[01:14:54] You know, we've all been there.

[01:14:58] Yeah.

[01:14:59] But we got to own it.

[01:15:00] You know what I mean?

[01:15:01] We definitely do.

[01:15:03] And if not, Facebook memories makes us.

[01:15:06] Luckily, I was kind of out of religion by the time Facebook hit.

[01:15:12] So not me.

[01:15:15] Every couple of weeks, I get that 15 year memory.

[01:15:18] I'm like, oh, no.

[01:15:21] But no, I was still very conservative.

[01:15:23] And I voted for Romney.

[01:15:31] Yeah.

[01:15:32] Which is pretty logical today.

[01:15:37] Yeah.

[01:15:40] Thanks for making me feel better.

[01:15:42] I wish there was Romney on the ticket now.

[01:15:45] I remember that I didn't know a lot about politics at the time.

[01:15:48] And I talked about this on Excommunication Station, that a lot of my early 20s and my late teens was me being willfully ignorant of politics because of how much hate there was involved with it in my house and my church that I just didn't want to get involved.

[01:16:03] I was just like, I just believe what I was taught and I don't know anything about it.

[01:16:08] Yeah.

[01:16:08] You know?

[01:16:08] I mean, that's.

[01:16:09] And that was.

[01:16:10] That's why they.

[01:16:11] Huh?

[01:16:12] Yeah.

[01:16:13] Right.

[01:16:13] And that's what they expect from us.

[01:16:14] That's why they keep us in line with the church is that we just don't look into shit, you know?

[01:16:22] But yeah, I think after.

[01:16:26] Oddly enough, after I met my wife.

[01:16:30] And after Obama won the first presidency, that was like when I finally like really changed, you know, that's when I really opened my eyes and really started to realize a lot of shit because I met my wife in 2007.

[01:16:46] And 2008.

[01:16:47] Yeah.

[01:16:48] That's when I really realized a lot of things.

[01:16:50] And that was like right after I moved out of my house, right after I moved into Wisconsin.

[01:16:54] And basically once I was on my own, I just started to just break apart things and chip away certain layers of hate, misogyny, you know, homophobia.

[01:17:07] And it's.

[01:17:09] As an adult now, which I can just jump to, because like I said, not a lot of teens with that stuff.

[01:17:15] When I had my first kid.

[01:17:19] I realized that the main thing I was lacking in church was empathy.

[01:17:24] Because once I wanted to teach my child that and make that the basis for everything, I realized that I didn't give a lot of people that as a child.

[01:17:32] Right.

[01:17:33] Even though I knew that I wanted to, I felt it.

[01:17:38] And I remember feeling it as a child, but being told to not act on it.

[01:17:41] And that is some of the most fucked up stuff.

[01:17:44] It's like seeing a homeless person and feeling so sad that your stomach hurts and wanting to give them like a graham cracker that you have and getting like reamed for that is not cool.

[01:17:55] You know, it really stunts it.

[01:17:58] Kind of the opposite of the teachings of Jesus as well.

[01:18:02] No, no, no.

[01:18:03] Did you mean that woke hippie?

[01:18:09] No, no.

[01:18:09] But yeah, so I think once I had my first kid too, it just really, that was another thing.

[01:18:15] It was like, I wanted, out of muscle memory, I wanted to, I got, my first child was baptized.

[01:18:24] I wanted to teach them church shit.

[01:18:27] I wanted to take them to church because that's what I did.

[01:18:29] And it was more of a tradition than it was a belief thing.

[01:18:37] And once I realized that, I was like, no, I don't want them to do this.

[01:18:40] If I'm not really believing this, I don't want that.

[01:18:44] And yeah, that was a wild ride, man.

[01:18:46] Realizing like the church wasn't doing a lot of the shit that Jesus was telling us to do.

[01:18:51] And I would, I want my, I want my kid to replicate Jesus, if anything.

[01:18:55] And that's not what the church is teaching.

[01:18:57] So no, thank you.

[01:18:59] And, and watching my children grow has changed me so much.

[01:19:07] And it's made me look back on myself so much.

[01:19:10] And like my, my oldest, they're 13.

[01:19:15] They just turned 13.

[01:19:16] They came out as bisexual to us when they were 10.

[01:19:20] And then at 11, they're like, actually, I'm a lesbian.

[01:19:26] And then like, nope, just kidding.

[01:19:27] I do like boys too.

[01:19:28] But then the following year, they came out as trans and they changed their name.

[01:19:37] And now they're going through the, the gender, the gender reassignment stuff.

[01:19:45] And it's just been this crazy, beautiful journey that I know younger me, like would have just been so mean towards my own kid.

[01:19:56] And it fucks me up sometimes, you know?

[01:19:59] And it just, it's so fucked up.

[01:20:02] And it's like, I know that I wouldn't have meant it.

[01:20:06] And it's, it's this weird mind game.

[01:20:10] You know, do you get what I'm saying?

[01:20:11] I mean, especially now we know your story.

[01:20:14] You mentioned empathy.

[01:20:15] It's really hard to give something that you've never been given, if not impossible.

[01:20:20] And so you recognizing that you need this empathy to, to give to people is huge.

[01:20:31] And, and I think that contributes to how the love and care you have for your kids.

[01:20:36] And so, um, yeah, it's beautiful.

[01:20:40] Yeah.

[01:20:43] Don't be too hard on yourself.

[01:20:44] I guess is what I'm saying.

[01:20:46] Cause I know that you can look through the lens of your former self and be terrified of that.

[01:20:52] We all can to some degree.

[01:20:54] Um, but, um, yeah, my past is my biggest enemy for sure.

[01:20:58] It's probably something you'll always wrestle with.

[01:21:00] You know, it's always there.

[01:21:01] That inner child is a, is a, is a big factor in our adult lives, but it doesn't have to be determinative of,

[01:21:10] of how we end up treating people.

[01:21:12] And it sounds like you're already, you know, you have so much care for your, your kids.

[01:21:19] I, I appreciate that.

[01:21:21] I think, I think one of the reasons I find myself falling back on thinking about how I,

[01:21:26] how I was back then and how much hatred I had and shit or how much perceived hatred I had is just

[01:21:32] because of how much love I have for them now.

[01:21:34] Like I see all the shit going on in society and stuff like there's progress and there's beautiful

[01:21:40] progress, but there's still so much bigotry and hate.

[01:21:42] And then when I see that in the world and I remember the way I was, I just get so self-loathing.

[01:21:48] You know what I mean?

[01:21:48] Yeah.

[01:21:49] And that's, that's the only reason I think back on it is because I just, it's like a muscle memory thing.

[01:21:56] When I see like the bigotry, I'm like, ah, I fucking, and I fucking, it makes me so angry.

[01:22:03] It makes me so frustrated.

[01:22:04] But yeah, I don't know where I'm going now.

[01:22:06] Now I'm kind of rambling.

[01:22:07] Sorry.

[01:22:07] No, it's good.

[01:22:08] Um, I, I appreciate you sharing all of this because we, we, we've covered a lot of ground

[01:22:16] today.

[01:22:17] Yeah.

[01:22:17] In the best sense.

[01:22:19] I'm just, like I said, I'm just like, I'm just bleh.

[01:22:22] Yeah.

[01:22:22] But that's what we're, that's what, that's what I'm here for.

[01:22:25] I think that's what you're here for too, is to, to tell the stories, you know, and they're

[01:22:30] not done and we don't, we don't know where we're, where things are going to end up.

[01:22:34] We don't know the end of the story.

[01:22:36] And so, yeah, you reached this point while you're talking, you're trying to tell a story

[01:22:41] that isn't over yet.

[01:22:42] You know, it's, we're in the second act.

[01:22:46] Yeah, absolutely.

[01:22:48] I appreciate all the things that you've said today so much because.

[01:22:54] I appreciate you and you saying that.

[01:22:56] Well, you've been through so much and half of that shit would have just completely broken

[01:23:01] some people.

[01:23:02] Well, but here you are, you're still trying to, to put stuff out into the world.

[01:23:09] You're, you have so much love for your family.

[01:23:14] It's winning to me.

[01:23:15] That's it.

[01:23:16] I know it's hard.

[01:23:17] And like I said, we're still battling the demons of our past, but I don't know.

[01:23:23] You're doing good, man.

[01:23:24] I appreciate you.

[01:23:27] I appreciate you.

[01:23:28] And I appreciate you saying that.

[01:23:30] I guess the last thing I really want to say is just like.

[01:23:35] Well, first of all, I want to say again, thank you.

[01:23:37] Everything you just said really hit me in the heart.

[01:23:39] And it really means a lot to me, dude.

[01:23:40] Really?

[01:23:40] It does.

[01:23:41] And I really appreciate that.

[01:23:42] I don't really talk about this, like the, all this stuff too much.

[01:23:48] Um, not just cause it hurts, but just because like, I never know if it's going to be like

[01:23:53] received well or anything like that.

[01:23:56] And knowing that you created an open space and a safe space really means a lot.

[01:23:59] And reading your book, I kind of expected it.

[01:24:01] Cause like I said, you do that, you did that a lot with your students and I appreciated

[01:24:05] that reading it.

[01:24:05] So, um, but I think that the biggest thing that I wanted to do coming here was like, I

[01:24:12] know that these are pretty fucked up stories and they may sound kind of weird the way they're

[01:24:16] coming out of my mouth.

[01:24:17] I, and I, I just basically feel like these are the hardest things in my life and maybe

[01:24:23] somebody else can relate to them and maybe not feel so isolated.

[01:24:27] Like you were saying earlier, because the isolation and all of this is the biggest

[01:24:30] and hardest part because you just feel really fucking alone.

[01:24:34] And when you feel alone, it feels like it's kind of impossible to solve this because no

[01:24:38] one's ever solved it before.

[01:24:41] So knowing you're not alone and knowing that someone else is getting through, it kind of

[01:24:45] makes you feel more possible.

[01:24:46] I feel so.

[01:24:48] I hope that that helps.

[01:24:50] And also when it comes to your kids growing up in the church, it teaches you a lot of bigotry

[01:24:57] and it teaches you a lot of homophobia specifically and misogyny.

[01:25:01] Um, let your kids be your kids.

[01:25:04] Don't put labels on anything.

[01:25:05] Don't put boy toys names on boy toys, girl toys, all that shit.

[01:25:10] Don't do that.

[01:25:11] If your kid's interested in something, you inflate that interest, follow it, be interested

[01:25:16] in it with them.

[01:25:18] I watched a two hour documentary on five nights at Freddy's with my kid just because they were

[01:25:22] talking about the video game.

[01:25:23] It's one of the, it was very dark.

[01:25:27] I was like, I can't believe I let you watch play this fucking game.

[01:25:32] But we talk about it all the time now and it's like one of our shared interests, you

[01:25:36] know?

[01:25:37] But that's what I'm saying.

[01:25:38] And like, just don't put your kids in a box.

[01:25:40] Just don't, don't ever put your kids in a box.

[01:25:43] Let them make the box.

[01:25:45] Let them make the octagon, whatever fucking shape they want to be.

[01:25:48] I mean, we're there to guide them and to protect them from, you know, the world, world's a scary

[01:25:54] place for sure.

[01:25:56] But yeah, finding that balance of letting their kids flourish as they are is, that's key

[01:26:00] for sure.

[01:26:02] Absolutely.

[01:26:03] Don't push them in a direction that you only feel is necessary.

[01:26:08] Yep.

[01:26:09] Except in music.

[01:26:11] Don't let them listen to shitty music.

[01:26:13] That's all I'm going to say.

[01:26:14] That's my hard line.

[01:26:15] That's my hard line.

[01:26:15] Yeah.

[01:26:16] See, I agree with that a hundred percent, but I found myself getting in trouble the last

[01:26:20] few times.

[01:26:21] I know.

[01:26:22] It always comes back to bite you in the ass.

[01:26:23] Then you'd be like, you're just old.

[01:26:25] Can I?

[01:26:26] Oh, can I?

[01:26:27] Look, I don't know what your personal feelings are on this band, but I've had three

[01:26:30] and a half years where I couldn't talk shit on this band and I really want to do it really

[01:26:34] quick.

[01:26:34] I don't like the cure.

[01:26:38] Okay, well that's old stuff.

[01:26:39] I know, but I just have to say, because for three and a half years, I have not been able

[01:26:45] to bag them.

[01:26:46] Why?

[01:26:46] Because two of my co-hosts love them.

[01:26:49] And one of them even had a podcast dedicated to them.

[01:26:51] Oh, right.

[01:26:52] So out of respect and love for them, I was like, I'm not going to bag them.

[01:26:56] But now I have to say, I don't get it, guys.

[01:26:59] I don't like them.

[01:27:03] Hey, we all have our things.

[01:27:05] And yeah.

[01:27:06] No, I do.

[01:27:07] I get it.

[01:27:07] I understand.

[01:27:08] I like a lot of weird fucking music.

[01:27:10] No, so I'm the opposite of you.

[01:27:12] I grew up listening to The Cure.

[01:27:13] Am I calling The Cure weird?

[01:27:14] I hated The Cure because I was a rock guy in the 80s.

[01:27:17] And so The Cure was like this new wave bullshit to me.

[01:27:21] It was like, what's this weak guitar shit?

[01:27:23] And just, drummer sucks.

[01:27:26] But now I hear it's kind of nostalgic.

[01:27:29] And it's like, this is pre-Pro Tools.

[01:27:31] So they actually had to play that stuff.

[01:27:32] And someone had to sing it.

[01:27:34] And like, all right, respect.

[01:27:36] There's some talent involved.

[01:27:38] You can't say that for a lot of groups.

[01:27:39] I can get that.

[01:27:40] There are no groups anymore.

[01:27:44] Yeah, let's not make it sad.

[01:27:46] We can bring it back.

[01:27:48] No.

[01:27:49] Yes, we can.

[01:27:50] God damn it.

[01:27:52] I can attest to that.

[01:27:54] That, you know, The Cure, they play their instruments.

[01:27:56] They are great.

[01:27:57] But, you know.

[01:28:00] I can't tell you how happy this is making me.

[01:28:04] After having to sit there, I think I love.

[01:28:06] I like Love Song and a couple other songs.

[01:28:11] But, yeah.

[01:28:14] I always joke around that I'm a B-Sides guy, but not with these.

[01:28:17] Yeah, yeah.

[01:28:18] It's all the hits from these guys.

[01:28:20] Yeah.

[01:28:22] Friday, I'm in Love.

[01:28:24] Yeah, that's not my favorite song.

[01:28:25] What's the other one?

[01:28:26] I don't remember the other one.

[01:28:28] But anyway.

[01:28:29] Boys Don't Cry is their first hit from like the early 80s.

[01:28:35] So what we're saying is when you come on full on Frisian, we're not going to be talking about The Cure.

[01:28:38] Yeah, I'm going to bring a Cure song just for you, man.

[01:28:41] Oh, no.

[01:28:42] And you're going to have to research it.

[01:28:48] That's why Chaz is going to be the last guest.

[01:28:51] You're going to give him the last Cure spot.

[01:28:54] Yeah.

[01:28:55] Yep.

[01:28:55] You can come on when I have nothing else left so we can listen to The Cure.

[01:28:59] Well, I hope that does.

[01:29:00] He's going to be up there with whoever wants to bring in the Beyonce.

[01:29:03] I hope it all happens.

[01:29:06] Oh, yeah, it's going to for sure.

[01:29:08] I got it all sketched out and labeled out.

[01:29:10] Just got to get the first one done.

[01:29:12] I'm ready.

[01:29:13] And anyway, I really appreciate you coming on, Donovan, and getting deep and telling the things that are hard to talk about.

[01:29:20] So thanks for coming on Chapel Probation.

[01:29:24] I appreciate you having me, sir.

[01:29:26] And thank you for dealing with me almost seizing up when the emotions got too high.

[01:29:30] Yeah, it's all good.

[01:29:31] That's what we're here for.

[01:29:41] Donovan's dislike of The Cure may be a bridge too far for Chaz and Chrissy.

[01:29:47] Or maybe they can go forward in greater honesty and openness.

[01:29:53] Here's to hope.

[01:29:56] In all seriousness, I really admire Donovan for coming here to tell his story.

[01:30:01] It wasn't easy.

[01:30:03] I'm sure you could hear it.

[01:30:04] He said he seizes up when emotions get high.

[01:30:08] Me, I just cry.

[01:30:11] I was sitting there with tears several times.

[01:30:14] And it actually gets worse while I'm listening back and editing.

[01:30:18] Because without being in the conversation and trying to think of where we're going and the pacing, I'm just listening.

[01:30:27] Like you all.

[01:30:29] And tears just stream down my face.

[01:30:32] But both Donovan and I know that telling our stories, these stories, helps.

[01:30:40] Donovan stories have been on my mind since he told them several weeks ago.

[01:30:45] And this is kind of a tangent, but in a fucked up way, it made me expect the worst last Tuesday on election day.

[01:30:53] I mean, it's heartbreaking to see just how shitty this country is in such a clear way with that election.

[01:31:01] With so many people voting for hate and chaos.

[01:31:06] But if you come out of Christianity, it makes sense.

[01:31:10] It gives me no joy to say this.

[01:31:15] Despite me being somewhere on that weird agnostic atheist spectrum,

[01:31:19] I know that a lot of society hinges on Christians doing the right thing.

[01:31:26] Because there's so many of them.

[01:31:28] At least people who claim to be.

[01:31:32] Now, historically, some Christians have defied the government for divine purposes.

[01:31:37] A precious few Christians fought for civil rights.

[01:31:40] Mostly against the majority of Christians.

[01:31:44] And I just did music for a great podcast called Sanctuary.

[01:31:48] Which details the history of the sanctuary movement.

[01:31:52] In which Christians, yeah, Christians.

[01:31:55] Reading the same Bible as Donovan's dad.

[01:31:59] Chose to risk going to jail and getting fined.

[01:32:02] Because they were aiding undocumented people from Central America and Mexico.

[01:32:09] But chapel probation focuses on the personal stories of you all.

[01:32:15] Donovan was born into a system of religion that harmed him.

[01:32:19] In unspeakable ways.

[01:32:23] It wasn't just that it didn't protect him.

[01:32:27] Or rise up to help him in the aftermath.

[01:32:30] Which both are true.

[01:32:32] I'm saying the religion itself was set up to harm him.

[01:32:39] Justified by verses and patriarchy.

[01:32:42] Because it's all there in the Bible.

[01:32:45] I used to tell progressive Christians, students at APU.

[01:32:51] Who were so alarmed at the draconian rules and culture.

[01:32:57] Hey, it's their house.

[01:33:00] You just have to survive until you can get out.

[01:33:05] You can't change the house.

[01:33:09] You can only try to get out.

[01:33:12] And try your best to heal.

[01:33:17] And I hope these stories help.

[01:33:24] So it's going to get rough.

[01:33:26] Leading up to the inauguration in January.

[01:33:32] And then it's going to get really bad.

[01:33:35] For all of us who care about humanity.

[01:33:38] And things like democracy.

[01:33:40] And human decency.

[01:33:43] And I wasn't sure how much longer I was going to do this podcast.

[01:33:50] But I realize it's good for me to do this.

[01:33:54] And to help tell these stories.

[01:33:55] And give people a platform to tell these stories.

[01:33:58] Because I think we're really going to need them.

[01:34:01] For at least the next four years.

[01:34:03] If not longer.

[01:34:04] And I don't think I can go four years.

[01:34:07] But fuck.

[01:34:10] This is where we are.

[01:34:12] We need each other.

[01:34:14] We need to tell our stories.

[01:34:18] I don't know.

[01:34:19] I don't have much more than that.

[01:34:22] If it's helping you.

[01:34:24] I'd love to hear from you.

[01:34:26] Because.

[01:34:28] Yeah.

[01:34:28] Feeling.

[01:34:30] More hopeless.

[01:34:32] Than I usually am.

[01:34:34] So.

[01:34:36] Reach out to each other.

[01:34:37] And if you have time.

[01:34:38] Send me a note.

[01:34:40] If there's anything you want.

[01:34:42] To cover.

[01:34:43] If you want to tell your story.

[01:34:47] So.

[01:34:48] Yeah.

[01:34:49] I wish.

[01:34:50] I had something more hopeful to tell you.

[01:34:53] But I don't.

[01:34:57] But we'll be back next week.

[01:34:58] With another episode.

[01:34:59] Actually we'll have a.

[01:35:00] Probably a bonus episode this week.

[01:35:02] With Reap.

[01:35:03] Some things to announce.

[01:35:05] And some things to push forward.

[01:35:06] Some things to use.

[01:35:07] To fight.

[01:35:08] The good fight.

[01:35:09] So have a great week y'all.

[01:35:11] We'll see you in the next one.

[01:35:12] Um.

[01:35:12] Thank you.