Chapel Probation s4- Chaz: Host of the Excommunication Station and a Christmas Message

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[00:00:07] What is it you wanted me to reconcile myself to? I was born here almost 60 years ago. I'm not going to live another 60 years. You always told me it takes time. It has taken my father's time, my mother's time, my uncle's time, my brother's and my sister's time, my niece's and my nephew's time. How much time do you want for your progress?

[00:00:29] I hate black people. Things are going to get worse before they get better. What is presented to me as an American does not look like me. Because you're not allowed to be a black man in corporate America. You give us a hard time for being white and being American and being in control. And when you live under a situation like that constantly, and then you ask me whether I approve of violence, I mean that just doesn't make any sense at all.

[00:01:00] Yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff happening right now. And you know what? We need a space where we can debrief some of it and deconstruct. If you've been looking for a POC-centered podcast that engages with intersectionality, religion, critical race theory, and some hip-hop culture, then you need to check out Profane Faith.

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[00:01:43] I regret to inform you, you're on chapel probation, a podcast that takes a critical look, usually, at evangelical colleges and universities.

[00:02:00] I'm your host, Scott Okamoto. It's time to celebrate Christmas.

[00:02:13] Greetings, reprobates, and Merry Christmas. Yeah, happy holidays.

[00:02:18] So a bit of content warning for a lot of things.

[00:02:24] For descriptions of really awful, horrific abuse on a child today.

[00:02:30] And also because I am the war on Christmas.

[00:02:35] Yeah, me.

[00:02:37] Either just abolish Christmas or make Christmas every day.

[00:02:42] Good tidings, cheer, charity, family gatherings.

[00:02:45] Any day, really.

[00:02:46] Why Christmas?

[00:02:48] I mean, I get it.

[00:02:50] But my war on Christmas is not for the reasons the Christians think.

[00:02:55] I've mentioned before about a transformative Christmas about 15 or 16 years ago.

[00:03:01] And this story helps explain my sometimes cynical view of Christmas and all these family-centered holidays, be it Thanksgiving or Easter or whatever.

[00:03:12] So we gathered at my parents' house and we saw the family across the street.

[00:03:16] And they were all kind of dressed up, I think.

[00:03:19] For Christmas, I assume.

[00:03:22] But there was a stillness to the gathering.

[00:03:25] A heaviness.

[00:03:26] And we got out of our car and we walked over and said, Merry Christmas.

[00:03:31] And they all got quiet.

[00:03:33] And it turned out the mom of the family had passed away that morning.

[00:03:41] We knew she had been ill, but we didn't realize it was terminal cancer.

[00:03:44] And she died just a couple hours before that.

[00:03:48] And the family had just come home from, I think, the hospital.

[00:03:53] And they were all sort of in, they were stunned.

[00:03:56] They were grieving on Christmas Day.

[00:04:03] We went inside and tried to have our family gathering, but it just didn't feel right to be celebratory, knowing that people we knew and were suffering so much.

[00:04:13] And we all agreed that we were going to eat dinner, but we were going to be mindful of them.

[00:04:22] And I know, I think some people would have said, well, let's forget about them for a minute and just really celebrate.

[00:04:27] But really, we could celebrate any goddamn day as a family.

[00:04:30] And we did.

[00:04:31] And we do.

[00:04:33] I mean, since then, a lot of our family has passed.

[00:04:37] But, I don't know, since that time and the year that they had the tsunami in Southeast Asia, knowing so much suffering was happening,

[00:04:46] it just doesn't feel right to me to celebrate with abandon while there's so much suffering happening.

[00:04:59] So, what was it for us to temper our celebratory anything on a day when we know people are suffering?

[00:05:08] It feels like celebrating something like Christmas with your loving family.

[00:05:13] It feels like you're at an after party at the Academy Awards or the fucking Met Gala.

[00:05:18] It's just a privilege.

[00:05:20] So, why don't just take advantage of that privilege whenever?

[00:05:25] Because the holidays are rough for a lot of people.

[00:05:30] I know families that are estranged, that deal with abuse or neglect.

[00:05:35] And I know people who don't even gather with their family for these reasons and many more.

[00:05:41] There's a lot of brokenness out there.

[00:05:44] And today's guest, Chaz Murphy, who's one of the hosts of the excommunication station, is here to tell his story.

[00:05:51] And yes, I thought it would be appropriate to air this episode on Christmas Eve.

[00:05:57] And it's another tough story.

[00:06:01] If you have a wonderful, loving family to gather with, I hope you listen to this and arrive at dinner extra appreciative of what you all have together.

[00:06:12] Hearing a story like this should not diminish from the love you have with your family.

[00:06:18] And I wish you the best.

[00:06:20] And I hope you also spend a moment of holiday bliss and think about people like Chaz.

[00:06:25] And probably a lot of other people in your life who really struggle during the holidays.

[00:06:32] And before you go post that super happy table with smiling faces and too much food and happy children.

[00:06:41] I mean, post it.

[00:06:43] Absolutely.

[00:06:43] But just be mindful that some people who see these pictures, it hurts because they don't have that.

[00:06:54] And for you who are struggling and listening, this episode is kind of for you.

[00:07:00] Because Chaz's story is a powerful one and it has a happy ending.

[00:07:03] He has a wonderful family now of his own.

[00:07:08] But this episode is for you because I just want you all to know that I see you and I acknowledge your pain.

[00:07:15] And I'm thinking of you.

[00:07:20] My name is, I go by Chaz, but my name is Charles.

[00:07:25] But I go by Chaz.

[00:07:26] I identify as he, him.

[00:07:29] And I am the host of the Excommunication Station podcast where we basically dive into a lot of pop culture within the Christian evangelical world.

[00:07:40] But also the worst people, the worst organizations and the worst movements.

[00:07:45] And I try to do the best research.

[00:07:47] And between my ums and I don't knows, try to get some information out to people.

[00:07:52] So, yeah, that's what I do.

[00:07:55] Yeah.

[00:07:56] And you do it well.

[00:07:57] It's a very researched podcast.

[00:07:59] I've been honored to be on a couple times.

[00:08:01] Yes.

[00:08:01] And I can't wait to have you on again in come the spring because I have a baseball episode that I want to do with you.

[00:08:08] Oh, shit.

[00:08:09] Yeah.

[00:08:09] Yeah.

[00:08:10] I'm so excited.

[00:08:11] Baseball nerds unite.

[00:08:12] Yes, absolutely.

[00:08:14] I wrote a whole episode for the dollop that I'm trying to get to them for the 1885 World Series.

[00:08:21] But it wasn't really a World Series.

[00:08:23] But Billy Sunday was involved in that.

[00:08:25] And 1885?

[00:08:27] Yes.

[00:08:29] Wow.

[00:08:30] Okay.

[00:08:30] Very wild, wild, wild series.

[00:08:35] Wow.

[00:08:36] That wasn't covered in the Ken Burns documentary.

[00:08:40] Probably not because it was a pretty crazy embarrassing event.

[00:08:44] But, yeah, it was one of the – it just made me laugh some of the things like Billy Sunday trying to attack an umpire.

[00:08:52] Yeah.

[00:08:52] It was a lot of fighting.

[00:08:55] Oh, from the fans too.

[00:08:57] Yeah.

[00:08:57] And they got a fan out of the stand to be the umpire at one point.

[00:09:01] So, yeah, things like that happened.

[00:09:03] So, for those of you listening, this is Baseball Talk with Scott and Chaz.

[00:09:10] If you don't like baseball, and I get it, but watch the Ken Burns documentary.

[00:09:16] My wife and I watched it when it aired in the 90s.

[00:09:20] And she became –

[00:09:21] And she loves baseball now just from watching that.

[00:09:24] So, yeah.

[00:09:25] Anyway, welcome to Chapel Probation.

[00:09:30] I'm glad you're here.

[00:09:31] We've been talking.

[00:09:33] And, yeah, all of the hosts of the excommunication station have an amazing backstory.

[00:09:43] Tell me how you all met because that's a fun story.

[00:09:47] And then we'll go back to your childhood.

[00:09:49] I was – I do another podcast called The Holy Hour, which is an all-cure podcast.

[00:09:56] Right.

[00:09:56] And I started off doing that.

[00:09:59] And when the pandemic hit – or even actually it was before the pandemic.

[00:10:02] I think it started in like 2018, 2019.

[00:10:05] I started working on doing like a music podcast with my friend Gavin.

[00:10:11] And it was like weird stories.

[00:10:13] We did a Foo Fighters episode that we didn't air it.

[00:10:17] And then we ended up doing it for the excommunication station.

[00:10:20] And we started doing that.

[00:10:24] And I was like something's not hitting here right with me.

[00:10:27] I love doing this research and I love talking about things.

[00:10:31] But like something's not doing it for me.

[00:10:34] And so I was talking to my therapist and she was like what about doing a podcast about religious trauma?

[00:10:40] And I was just like that's interesting.

[00:10:43] Sounds fun.

[00:10:44] Yeah.

[00:10:45] And I was just like I don't know if I'm going to get anyone that's going to want to do that with me.

[00:10:49] So I asked a former pastor friend of mine.

[00:10:52] Little did you know.

[00:10:53] Little did you know.

[00:10:55] I didn't even dive into the ex-evangelical world at all at this point.

[00:11:02] And I was on a family – not a family, a parent Facebook board for last podcast on the left.

[00:11:12] And it's one of my favorite groups that I'm a part of because everybody is very open and accepting and asking for advice and posting their biggest failures, their biggest triumphs.

[00:11:28] It's just a great group.

[00:11:29] And I just posted on there, you know, would anybody be interested in doing this with me?

[00:11:34] And Chrissy and Donovan's wife actually said that Donovan might want to do it.

[00:11:40] And then Chrissy right off the bat was like I'm – you know, and she went through her credentials.

[00:11:46] I'm just like well I didn't really need that but thank you.

[00:11:49] It was my resume.

[00:11:49] Yeah, I would love – this is awesome.

[00:11:53] So I was – we just started meeting up over Zoom a couple times before we started going over what we wanted.

[00:12:02] And the original name for the podcast I wanted was James Dobson's Bastard Children.

[00:12:09] Yeah.

[00:12:09] But they shot that down.

[00:12:12] I still don't know why but –

[00:12:16] But they – I don't remember which one of them came up with Excommunication Station.

[00:12:21] It was a play on Adventures in Odyssey which I enjoyed.

[00:12:27] So yeah, the Imagination – was it the Imagination Station I think it was called?

[00:12:32] But yeah, that's – yeah, that's – was a play off of that.

[00:12:36] Yeah, thank you.

[00:12:37] The Dobson one was good too.

[00:12:38] It doesn't roll off the tongue as well.

[00:12:41] It doesn't have that –

[00:12:41] It doesn't.

[00:12:42] But I think it hits the nail home a little bit better.

[00:12:46] Straight white American Jesus doesn't roll off the tongue but look where they are so.

[00:12:49] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:12:51] It's humongous.

[00:12:52] Yeah.

[00:12:52] So –

[00:12:53] Yeah, no that's cool.

[00:12:54] And so just – and we'll talk about it at the end too but it's a great podcast.

[00:13:00] You like script it out, right?

[00:13:02] You write out the research and then sort of go through it and then people just respond.

[00:13:06] Your guests.

[00:13:08] Yeah.

[00:13:09] So the stuff on like the Christian music has been great.

[00:13:13] You're going through the book that Josh Harris' wife wrote at the moment.

[00:13:18] Yeah.

[00:13:19] So –

[00:13:19] That's been interesting.

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:21] I – most of the episodes are scripted.

[00:13:24] I do a lot of writing.

[00:13:26] I do a lot of research.

[00:13:27] I do a lot of reading.

[00:13:28] But I don't understand my mental illness to the extent of how I'm able to do that as – able to retain so much information and write it out and stay focused and still be able to do it.

[00:13:40] Because a lot of the times I have like three or four episodes going on at once.

[00:13:45] And – but I don't know, Scott.

[00:13:47] I have episodes right now going out until I think June or July.

[00:13:56] Oh, wow.

[00:13:57] I have like scripted episodes and I'm still working on a Petra series.

[00:14:01] Oh.

[00:14:02] So, yeah.

[00:14:03] It's – it's – I – dude, I don't understand it.

[00:14:06] And like I don't really want to find out what's wrong with me about it or what's going on.

[00:14:10] I literally have a picture – oh, no, this isn't it.

[00:14:12] I have a picture right behind me in the stack of me wearing a Petra concert shirt.

[00:14:17] Oh, yeah.

[00:14:18] Yeah.

[00:14:18] They were one of my favorites.

[00:14:19] Yeah.

[00:14:20] So, yeah.

[00:14:21] That's been an interesting dive into them.

[00:14:23] I'm finding out a ton of stuff that I didn't know and a kind of family relative of Greg X Vols messaged me.

[00:14:35] It was actually Jonathan David Brown's daughter who we did an episode on.

[00:14:39] I think it's episode 50.

[00:14:41] It's one of my favorites that we've done.

[00:14:43] But he was a Christian music producer.

[00:14:47] He turned out to be a member of the KKK and had a compound in the middle of the woods.

[00:14:56] Of course he did.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:57] Held criminals in his compound to get away from the law.

[00:15:03] So, yeah.

[00:15:06] The things you find out when you just scratch the surface, man.

[00:15:09] So, yeah.

[00:15:11] Wow.

[00:15:12] All right.

[00:15:12] Well, I went out of order just because it's so interesting.

[00:15:16] But tell me about your childhood.

[00:15:19] Happy Christian family upbringing.

[00:15:23] I think to kind of explain my childhood, I kind of have to go back to my parents and my mom and father.

[00:15:30] My stepfather is going to come into play eventually.

[00:15:33] But my mother and father were very young when they first got pregnant with my oldest brother.

[00:15:40] And this was, I believe, in 1962.

[00:15:44] And they were 14 and 15.

[00:15:48] My father was 14 and my mother was 15.

[00:15:52] And they were told if they had another child before my mother was 18, they would take the children and send her away to like a boarding school or whatever.

[00:16:02] They did back then.

[00:16:04] And where was this?

[00:16:05] Central New Jersey.

[00:16:07] Wow.

[00:16:07] So, this wasn't in, you know, Nebraska.

[00:16:12] Yeah.

[00:16:12] This was like.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:15] Yeah.

[00:16:16] So, they got pregnant again before my mother was 18.

[00:16:22] And they kept the baby in secret the whole entire time.

[00:16:27] And they had the baby.

[00:16:30] They hid my mother away basically.

[00:16:31] You know, she wore bigger clothes for a while.

[00:16:34] And then finally, she just like kind of disappeared.

[00:16:37] And my father made up excuses.

[00:16:39] And finally, they had the baby in secret.

[00:16:42] My father cut the umbilical cord, wrapped him in a T-shirt, took him to a bowling alley and put him in the back of a car.

[00:16:49] And that's my brother Scott, who I wouldn't meet for almost another 40 years.

[00:16:55] Wow.

[00:16:56] So, yeah.

[00:16:58] Yeah.

[00:16:59] That kind of explains where my parents came from.

[00:17:02] They would have my sister.

[00:17:04] Was this motivated by religion?

[00:17:06] This sort of puritanical thing?

[00:17:08] Or was it just the culture of Central New Jersey?

[00:17:11] I think it was a little bit of both.

[00:17:14] My grandfather fought in World War II and was like really had hardcore PTSD.

[00:17:21] He was at D-Day.

[00:17:22] And, you know, I have pictures of him in an album of like holding up a Nazi flag of like people he just like killed.

[00:17:30] It's just like, you know, he, you know, it wasn't easy for him.

[00:17:33] And he came home and apparently he didn't call anybody for a month after he came home.

[00:17:38] And like finally called my great grandmother and didn't say a word and just broke down crying.

[00:17:44] They had no idea where he was.

[00:17:46] And he came home and like he would sleep on the floor and like just stare at the window and everything.

[00:17:52] So there's always stuff, you know, there's already stuff coming into my mother that's that's forming who she is.

[00:17:59] And my grandmother was apparently very cold to her and very loving of my aunt.

[00:18:08] But which formed another issue in our childhood.

[00:18:13] But so fast forward, they had my my sister when my when my mother was actually 18.

[00:18:21] They went through about 20 years of abuse, alcoholism.

[00:18:26] And then they had my other sister and then they had me in 1980.

[00:18:31] Well, not 20 years.

[00:18:32] Sorry, about 10 years.

[00:18:34] That's quite a range of.

[00:18:37] Date.

[00:18:37] Yeah.

[00:18:38] Yeah.

[00:18:39] Yeah.

[00:18:40] And then they were going to get back together.

[00:18:43] They were getting back together when I was born.

[00:18:45] And my father's best friend died, who I'm who my middle name is after.

[00:18:54] And that sent him off the edge into alcoholism again because he had he had stopped at that point.

[00:19:01] And my mother had had enough.

[00:19:03] And she moved in with some, I guess, family members.

[00:19:07] I don't know.

[00:19:08] And fell into Christian radio.

[00:19:13] And no.

[00:19:14] Yeah.

[00:19:15] So she told me that she would sit at the table with me in the basket and a laundry basket next to her.

[00:19:24] And she would be reading her Bible and listen to Billy Graham.

[00:19:29] And Jimmy Swaggart was her favorite.

[00:19:34] So and she got saved to Billy Graham, she said.

[00:19:37] And that was basically her salvation story.

[00:19:42] And then we moved into a one bedroom apartment with four kids, two of them about to graduate high school eventually.

[00:19:51] And me and my sister who were babies.

[00:19:54] And my stepfather came knocking at the door and asked her, do you know if you died today where you would go?

[00:20:02] And my mother said I would go to heaven because I accepted Jesus Christ.

[00:20:07] And from what I told, he left and then came back later on and asked her out on a date.

[00:20:15] So not predatory at all or anything.

[00:20:20] I was going to say something snarky like how romantic.

[00:20:23] But yeah.

[00:20:24] Yeah.

[00:20:26] Yeah.

[00:20:26] So that's how they got together.

[00:20:29] I don't know a ton about my my father per se, like what was going on this time.

[00:20:37] I don't know if a lot of the stuff my mother said was honest.

[00:20:43] You know, it's it's tough to judge, you know, because back then I believed it all of how big of a monster he was and how terrible he was.

[00:20:52] And that's why I don't get to see him.

[00:20:54] And he doesn't want to see me anyway.

[00:20:56] And like but you don't know, you know, and that's something you shouldn't tell a kid to begin with.

[00:21:00] But, you know, it's just it.

[00:21:04] It was so.

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:06] I don't know where I am with that.

[00:21:08] And fast forward.

[00:21:09] Sadly, my father passed away.

[00:21:11] But we'll get into that later, I guess.

[00:21:15] But yeah, it's you don't.

[00:21:18] You kind of question your childhood at a certain point now of like what could have been what could have changed if there was an actual honest and open relationship between my parents of co-parenting, I guess.

[00:21:31] So, yeah, I that's all I got to say about that.

[00:21:35] So I assume your stepfather enters the picture and now the whole family is the four of you are going to church at least.

[00:21:42] Yes.

[00:21:44] So they were going to get married.

[00:21:45] I want to say it was an assemblies of God church, but the pastor wouldn't marry two divorced people.

[00:21:53] So they went church shopping, which is the most holy thing to do is to find a church that fits into your moral compass.

[00:22:01] And there's there's many there's a lot of options out there.

[00:22:04] Yeah.

[00:22:05] Yeah.

[00:22:05] I don't to tell you the truth.

[00:22:08] I don't know the denomination of the church we spent like the next 10 years at.

[00:22:14] I was always told it was non denominational.

[00:22:17] It was I want to say it was a IFB church.

[00:22:22] Oh, shit.

[00:22:23] That's not good.

[00:22:25] Just based on some of the things that they preached.

[00:22:30] And, you know, we I was raised on Jack Chick.

[00:22:35] I read Jack Chick in the in the aisles of my church of the comics.

[00:22:41] Yep.

[00:22:42] We were heavy into, you know, dispensationalism and the rapture.

[00:22:49] And we only read the King James Bible.

[00:22:54] No, no new King James.

[00:22:55] We we sang hymns and so on and so forth.

[00:22:59] And it was very authoritarian.

[00:23:02] The pastor was an ex-Marine.

[00:23:04] The other pastor was next Navy guy.

[00:23:07] And like it was very, very by the book.

[00:23:09] We had a school.

[00:23:11] So but yeah, we started going there and we stayed there the next 10 years.

[00:23:17] We went to the school of Phillipsburg Christian Academy, which is the name of the school.

[00:23:23] The name of the church was Fellowship Church.

[00:23:25] It's still there in a day.

[00:23:27] And I looked it up and it's completely flipped and it's pretty progressive now, which is wild.

[00:23:33] Like, I don't know what happened.

[00:23:34] It would be interesting to look into that.

[00:23:36] But like they actually do like community outreach now, which was something they didn't do in the 80s.

[00:23:42] And like they're pretty accepting of LGBTQ plus people, which was absolutely not the case.

[00:23:50] But my stepfather got really, really into focus on the family.

[00:23:56] Oh, no.

[00:23:58] He had two.

[00:23:59] They all did, right?

[00:24:00] Yeah.

[00:24:00] That generation.

[00:24:01] That's that was the main source of information.

[00:24:05] Yeah.

[00:24:05] Yeah.

[00:24:06] He had two kids before us and he had been married twice before.

[00:24:11] He I kind of explained him as a ghost because he kind of popped out of nowhere and like with no backstory and no like he didn't really fill us in on anything.

[00:24:21] And like the only time we met his daughter, I didn't meet his son for another like after I was already an adult and they like repaired their relationship or whatever.

[00:24:31] But I met his daughter when I was very young.

[00:24:34] I want to say about five.

[00:24:36] And we went to the prison that she was at.

[00:24:40] And he sat down with us and his daughter and told us that he was forgiven for everything that he had done.

[00:24:50] And that he hopes that his daughter finds Jesus and finds the grace that he has found.

[00:24:58] Something along those lines.

[00:25:00] Oh, so many red flags.

[00:25:03] So my step sister, I guess you would call her, she went nuts and started screaming and yelling at him.

[00:25:14] She's a resident of this prison.

[00:25:17] Yes.

[00:25:18] Yeah.

[00:25:21] So she we got taken out.

[00:25:24] But my father stayed there and stepfather stayed there.

[00:25:26] And I remember my mother and my sister and I sitting out on a park bench outside the fence and then him coming out.

[00:25:34] And then we just got in the car and drove away.

[00:25:37] But yeah, we we lived in a trailer park for the first couple of years.

[00:25:44] And then my grandmother died.

[00:25:49] And which was a traumatic situation because I wasn't allowed to say goodbye to her.

[00:25:57] And I the only thing I remember is my mother driving up the road and screaming that Nan Ann had a heart attack.

[00:26:07] And I didn't see her for the next couple of days.

[00:26:10] And she I didn't get to go to the funeral because she said kids shouldn't go.

[00:26:14] Oh, and yeah.

[00:26:19] The the last memory I have of her is Christmas 1985.

[00:26:26] I remember because I got a grizzler toy from Masters of the Universe or maybe this was 86.

[00:26:32] I'm sorry.

[00:26:32] This is 86.

[00:26:36] And my stepfather, as soon as he saw it, he took it from me and said it was demonic and would not be allowed in our house.

[00:26:44] And so years later, my wife got me a grizzler toy for Christmas and I broke down crying in the middle of the living room.

[00:26:55] So, yeah, I have a giant grizzler tattoo on the side of my leg with Nan Ann on it.

[00:27:01] So grizzler came back.

[00:27:03] Yes.

[00:27:03] So a lot is being kept from you.

[00:27:06] And yes, did you ever find out what the hell that was about at the prison?

[00:27:09] Like what what did he do that he needed forgiveness for?

[00:27:13] And what was the daughter in for?

[00:27:15] And did you know any of this?

[00:27:17] Don't know what she was in for.

[00:27:19] Don't know what their relationship was like, but I know what happened.

[00:27:23] I mean, I can 99 percent guess what happened.

[00:27:25] Yeah.

[00:27:26] I mean, you don't have to tell all the.

[00:27:27] No, it was sexual abuse because we'll go into it in a little bit.

[00:27:30] So I can 99 percent guess it was that.

[00:27:34] My stepfather was a fucking monster and it was only to me, which is very odd.

[00:27:40] My my my sister absolutely loves him.

[00:27:43] She she moved down to Florida to be with him as he's getting older.

[00:27:47] He's like 80 now.

[00:27:48] And does she know what happened?

[00:27:51] No, I don't think she would care.

[00:27:53] I don't think I think I don't know if it would change anything.

[00:27:57] She's very deep evangelical along with him.

[00:28:00] So it's it's, you know, I don't know.

[00:28:05] She saw some like we'll get it.

[00:28:08] OK, let's get let's get into it.

[00:28:09] Well, this part of the story is is.

[00:28:13] Yeah.

[00:28:14] Yeah.

[00:28:14] This part is rough.

[00:28:15] This part sucks.

[00:28:16] This is this.

[00:28:17] I'll just talk about my stepfather.

[00:28:19] And to whatever degree you're comfortable.

[00:28:20] Yeah, I taught I've talked about on the podcast.

[00:28:24] If you know, I could make a super cut of everything and still probably wouldn't be all of it.

[00:28:30] But so the abuse didn't start until we moved into our house because my grandmother left us a small amount of money.

[00:28:41] And we moved from a trailer where my sister and I shared the same room into a house.

[00:28:47] It was like a half.

[00:28:48] We called it a half a double.

[00:28:49] I don't know what you call it, a duplex.

[00:28:51] Like it's a house split down the middle.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:53] And, you know, so we lived on.

[00:28:57] We had our our own rooms and mine was next to my stepfather and mother's room.

[00:29:03] Um, uh, he, he hit us when we were younger and I remember him having to go out and get her own switches and everything.

[00:29:13] And, you know, everything, you know, along James Dobson and everything.

[00:29:17] Um, so there was always physical abuse.

[00:29:19] Uh, and my sister had that too, but mine went above and beyond, um, where it should have gone, uh, where it went to, uh, verbal abuse.

[00:29:30] Also like saying stuff like I shouldn't have been born.

[00:29:33] And this is like, you know, why my father doesn't love me and, you know, so on and so forth.

[00:29:38] So, uh, um, so yeah, uh, we move into the house and we only had one sexual abuse moment between both of us and it happened very early and it was where he had me touch him.

[00:29:56] Um, and, uh, I just, that's when I think I started disassociating and I just remembered dust and in the room and just close, you know, focused on that.

[00:30:11] And, uh, nothing ever happened after that, but I very hypervigilant.

[00:30:20] Um, I have been since, since I was a kid, uh, it's been a tough time.

[00:30:25] My wife understands that I can't sleep facing the door.

[00:30:29] Um, and it's, it's been a struggle.

[00:30:31] Um, and, uh, she understands it a little bit.

[00:30:36] So it's, uh, it's an issue.

[00:30:38] Um, but you know, through therapy and marijuana, um, it's been a lot easier for me to handle this stuff.

[00:30:45] Uh, like sleeping at night, but, uh, he would stand at my door.

[00:30:50] Um, and that's all I know.

[00:30:53] Jesus.

[00:30:54] Um, I had my favorite baseball players on my door, uh, pictures and I would just disassociate

[00:31:02] it into a man, um, and try to sleep.

[00:31:06] Uh, so yeah.

[00:31:08] Uh, was there was, was the door closed?

[00:31:12] Then he's, you just know he's, he's out there or is he, is the door open?

[00:31:16] Never closed doors in the house.

[00:31:20] So yeah, there's no locks on the doors.

[00:31:24] Wasn't allowed.

[00:31:25] Um, so, and, and there was, he, he was really into golf and he wanted me to be into golf.

[00:31:36] So the way he taught me to play golf was we went to the football field up from our house

[00:31:42] and he put the ball on the ground and took the golf club and said, don't pick up your

[00:31:47] head when you swing.

[00:31:48] So I tried to do it and I, the ball went off to the left or right or whatever.

[00:31:52] And he was like, okay.

[00:31:55] And he grabbed my hair as hard as he could.

[00:31:58] And he said, don't pick up your head when you swing.

[00:32:01] And I picked up my head when I swung and he pulled my hair as hard as he could.

[00:32:08] So that's the way I learned how to play golf with him.

[00:32:11] Um, uh, he, one time we were out on the golf course and I brought my cart onto the green

[00:32:21] and I'm like nine and I didn't know any of these rules.

[00:32:25] And he came over to me and grabbed me and picked me up on my throat and, you know, told

[00:32:30] me, told me what the rules were.

[00:32:35] And, you know, uh, and this, and I, I can't say the church didn't know, um, because there

[00:32:44] were times he would pull me out and take me into the bathroom and hit me.

[00:32:47] And there was one specific moment in Sunday school where this kid slapped me across the

[00:32:54] face for some reason, just fucking kids.

[00:32:58] Like in the eighties, we're fucking stupid and abusive to each other.

[00:33:01] Um, and so, yeah.

[00:33:04] And so I hit him.

[00:33:07] I don't remember where my stepfather was at the door for some reason, looking in to the

[00:33:13] Sunday school and he burst in, grabbed me in front of everyone, but I throw in slap

[00:33:19] me across the face in front of everyone and put me down and just walked out.

[00:33:24] So, yeah.

[00:33:26] So you had witnesses and nobody, I mean, it was, this is not an excuse, but it was, it was

[00:33:32] the eighties.

[00:33:34] It was just because even in California, there was a, um, sexual abuse happening in my cub

[00:33:40] scout or boy scout troop.

[00:33:43] And it didn't make the news.

[00:33:44] All, all it was, was it was a parent meeting and then all the parents came home and said,

[00:33:48] yeah, stay away from Mr. So-and-so that was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:33:54] Um, and so yeah, it's fucked up.

[00:33:56] We, nobody advocated for victims, you know, and this is supposedly civilized Southern California,

[00:34:02] right?

[00:34:03] It's like, no, it was, nobody was looking out for kids back then.

[00:34:08] No, no, no.

[00:34:10] Um, and thankfully I think a lot of us because of that are actually looking out for children

[00:34:15] now.

[00:34:15] Yeah.

[00:34:16] Um, in ways that we probably would have never dreamt of, um, which is, you know, good on

[00:34:21] us.

[00:34:21] Well, and you especially who experienced it firsthand.

[00:34:26] I mean, that's, yeah.

[00:34:28] I'm so sorry, Chaz, that you had to go through that.

[00:34:32] That's.

[00:34:32] Thank you.

[00:34:33] I, I, yeah, I know.

[00:34:35] Um, it's been, it's been hard, but like through therapy of like just accepting those

[00:34:40] sorries, um, and understanding what they mean.

[00:34:44] Um, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

[00:34:49] So I got it.

[00:34:53] Chaz's stepfather was an abusive monster in every possible way.

[00:34:59] His abuse was also known to the church.

[00:35:02] And yet that man was a beloved member in good standing.

[00:35:08] This is Christianity, especially in the eighties and nineties.

[00:35:11] I mean, in the church I grew up in, there was an issue quote unquote with the director

[00:35:16] of children's ministries, who was a woman.

[00:35:19] So of course she couldn't be the pastor.

[00:35:22] She was the mom of one of my best friends at church.

[00:35:24] Now she came to the ministry council council, which my dad was on, you know, kind of the

[00:35:29] board of directors of the church.

[00:35:31] And she asked for permission to divorce her husband because he had been beating her and

[00:35:37] the kids.

[00:35:37] They had meetings for, I don't know how long, more than a week agonizing over whether this

[00:35:47] woman should be allowed to leave her husband.

[00:35:50] And at issue of course was divorce versus abuse, which was worse.

[00:35:58] They finally came before the congregation and gave her permission to divorce in an emotional

[00:36:04] service.

[00:36:05] There was clapping and apparently it wasn't a unanimous decision for the ministry council.

[00:36:13] My dad points to this as a victory for the church and for her, but even at the time,

[00:36:20] I think I was in college, I was pissed.

[00:36:24] Why did they even have to have meetings to decide this?

[00:36:28] Because to me, the fact that this woman's fate was in the hands of a bunch of men and could

[00:36:34] have easily gone the other way.

[00:36:36] That's dehumanizing regardless of the outcome.

[00:36:40] This was a white man, of course, in otherwise good standing, hence the deliberations.

[00:36:47] And frankly, looking back, I'm surprised they let her both divorce and continue serving

[00:36:53] as director of children's ministries.

[00:36:56] And there were people who didn't want her, they said it was okay for her to divorce, but

[00:37:00] she shouldn't be in charge of children's ministries as a divorcee.

[00:37:05] I think she left not too long after that incident.

[00:37:09] And like Chaz's story, the church did nothing to address the issue of abuse, nor did it attempt

[00:37:16] to help the woman or her kids heal from it.

[00:37:20] And so Chaz had to go to church every Sunday, knowing that people witnessed his abuse and

[00:37:29] did nothing.

[00:37:31] I'm sure he saw people greet his stepdad every Sunday with handshakes and claps on the back

[00:37:36] and blessings.

[00:37:40] And that had to suck.

[00:37:46] Do we still want to keep Christmas?

[00:37:50] Think about it.

[00:37:51] Yeah.

[00:37:53] So the physical abuse with my stepfather didn't stop until I was 15.

[00:38:00] When my, I mean, I was getting already too big for him to do anything, but it was when

[00:38:07] I got, we'll get into me going to Pentecostal school.

[00:38:10] Uh, but, uh, we, well, uh, um, I got detention and, um, he got really mad and I was laying

[00:38:19] in bed cause I had to go to bed early cause detention meant you had to get up at 7am on

[00:38:23] Saturday to go there.

[00:38:24] And that was fucking with his tea time.

[00:38:27] So, uh, I, he told me if you make another noise in bed, I'm going to come in there and

[00:38:34] you're not going to forget it.

[00:38:36] So I laid as possibly still as I could for like 15 minutes and then I rolled over and

[00:38:42] he came storming in the room and grabbed me by the arm and threw me across the room into

[00:38:47] the wall.

[00:38:49] And my mom came upstairs and told him that grabbed me and pulled me downstairs.

[00:38:54] The only time she ever protected me and said that if I ever did it again, that she would

[00:38:59] leave him.

[00:39:01] And if he ever did it again, yeah.

[00:39:03] Yeah.

[00:39:03] And that was the last time.

[00:39:05] But Scott, my mother was, was just as violent.

[00:39:11] She was just as violent.

[00:39:13] She would, she would hit us in anger all the time.

[00:39:15] So she didn't give a fuck about James Dobson and what his like rules were of not hitting

[00:39:20] in anger, even though my stepfather didn't believe that either.

[00:39:23] But, um, he would do it calmly sometimes, which is more psychotic.

[00:39:27] Yeah.

[00:39:28] No, that's doing it in anger.

[00:39:30] Yeah.

[00:39:32] Yeah.

[00:39:32] I'm going to hit you now.

[00:39:34] Yes.

[00:39:35] Child.

[00:39:36] Yeah.

[00:39:36] Yeah.

[00:39:37] Because, um, I would say the abuse from my mom really kicked up when I was a teenager

[00:39:44] and, uh, but yeah, um, she, the last time she hit me was when I, I was getting into punk

[00:39:55] and, uh, I had my hair a little weird and she brought me home from youth group.

[00:40:01] And she, as soon as she didn't say a word to me.

[00:40:04] And as soon as we got home, she grabbed me and threw me in a chair and grabbed her, uh,

[00:40:10] clippers.

[00:40:11] Cause she was, she was a beautician and she started, she tried to shave my head and I blocked

[00:40:17] her each time she did it.

[00:40:18] And she just took the clippers and just started wailing on me with them.

[00:40:23] And I told her, you know, I told her to stop and said, I love you.

[00:40:27] And she said, you don't love me.

[00:40:28] And just started hitting me over and over again.

[00:40:30] And so, yeah, that's my mom.

[00:40:32] Um, so she was, she was not a good person.

[00:40:35] Um, and both of these people portrayed good Christians.

[00:40:39] Um, right.

[00:40:40] So on Sunday they're dressed up and members in good standing at the church.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:45] Yeah.

[00:40:46] Yeah.

[00:40:46] And they did, they did Sunday school teaching, which my, which they're the last two people

[00:40:52] to probably have to do that.

[00:40:53] They should be doing that.

[00:40:54] But of course the church doesn't give a fuck.

[00:40:56] Um, and, uh, they, my mother ran the library at the church.

[00:41:02] Um, and, uh, she also, she, the, my mother and stepfather kept us in purposeful poverty.

[00:41:15] Uh, they didn't accept any government assistance.

[00:41:19] Um, they refused to when they could have, uh, they gave 10%, of course, if not more to

[00:41:26] the church.

[00:41:27] Uh, they gave money to missions.

[00:41:31] They gave money to the church to put us through school.

[00:41:35] And, you know, there was other things, you know, including all the books that they bought

[00:41:39] and everything, you know, and so on and so forth.

[00:41:42] While we were eating meat that had to be freezed from frozen from the store because it was about

[00:41:48] to expire or we, we only shopped at the thrift stores.

[00:41:52] And, you know, the only time I got shoes was when my father sent a check for Easter specifically

[00:41:57] for shoes.

[00:41:59] And that was like one of the only contacts we had through him through the years was he

[00:42:03] would, he would send a check every Easter for us to get shoes.

[00:42:08] Uh, so yeah, that was, uh, it, it completely fucked up my view on money to the point where

[00:42:18] my wife has to control all the finances.

[00:42:19] Cause I can't, I hate it.

[00:42:21] I absolutely hate it.

[00:42:23] Um, it was an issue on our podcast too, where we didn't want to start a Patreon because I

[00:42:28] hated it.

[00:42:30] I was like, I don't want money.

[00:42:31] Like this money fucking sucks.

[00:42:33] It, it like it messes with everything.

[00:42:35] And like where my wife was like, I'm going to take over your credit.

[00:42:39] I'm going to do this.

[00:42:40] And like, you know, she's helped out a lot when it comes to a lot of my blind spots and

[00:42:45] issues.

[00:42:46] Um, so yeah, I, I, yeah.

[00:42:50] Um, yeah.

[00:42:51] Um, yeah.

[00:42:54] Thanks for sharing this.

[00:42:55] Cause I, I know.

[00:42:58] I don't know experientially, but I know that's not easy talking about these things that,

[00:43:04] you know, you've, you've come a long way and you know, just going back to it is, is not

[00:43:10] easy.

[00:43:10] So thank you for sharing this with us because, Oh no, that's, it's quite all right.

[00:43:15] I, it's, it's been, it's been a long time and, uh, you know, therapy and actually believing

[00:43:23] in it, uh, you know, because I had been in therapy for years before I actually started

[00:43:28] diet, believing in it and like actually buying into it and saying, you know, establishing what

[00:43:34] I wanted in my life and what I wanted to make, you know, to be happy and, um, being determined

[00:43:44] to get to that has been the biggest issue.

[00:43:47] To your credit, because not, you know, not everyone can or does.

[00:43:53] I know.

[00:43:54] And that's, that's, uh, I've had a couple sessions about, uh, it's not survivor guilt, but like

[00:44:03] maybe it is, I don't know, but, uh, I don't want to label it as that.

[00:44:06] No.

[00:44:06] Like, you know, the statistics say I shouldn't be here or, you know.

[00:44:11] Right.

[00:44:11] And, uh, that's upsetting that other people aren't, that could be, um, and that's probably

[00:44:16] one of the reasons I do the show, um, is cause I want people to be there and, you know, find

[00:44:23] something, even if it's a hobby that they like, you know, so.

[00:44:28] And they might be here physically, but you know, in what state, you know, in what.

[00:44:32] Very true.

[00:44:33] Very true.

[00:44:34] And how, how are they living?

[00:44:36] You know, it's.

[00:44:37] Yeah.

[00:44:38] Yeah.

[00:44:38] It's a lot to come back from.

[00:44:40] Yeah.

[00:44:42] So I, I kind of want to get into church a little bit.

[00:44:44] I was going to just about to say, so through all this, you're going to church and you're

[00:44:48] hearing about this loving God.

[00:44:50] Yes.

[00:44:50] When the only.

[00:44:51] I bought into Jesus hardcore of, I, I don't think I had, I didn't have protection and love

[00:44:58] at home.

[00:44:59] And the only person I was told that could do that was Jesus.

[00:45:04] And so I kind of bought into that.

[00:45:06] And when I, when it came to WWJD and that, with that rolling around, I was like,

[00:45:10] do we believe this or we do, do we not?

[00:45:13] Like, and, and, you know, when I say that, uh, I've said, I think I've said on the show

[00:45:19] where WWJD was a radicalizing point for me.

[00:45:22] Um, just because I read it when I was so young, because my mom was running the library.

[00:45:26] And for some reason that socialist leftist Christian book was in there.

[00:45:32] And I took it to heart.

[00:45:34] And I think, uh, when we went to DC for vacation, um, was the first time I really saw hardcore

[00:45:44] poverty.

[00:45:45] And we were driving through the city and I saw some guy digging through a dumpster and

[00:45:50] he had like no clothes on basically.

[00:45:52] And I wanted them to stop to give them what I had, like a blanket or whatever.

[00:45:58] And my stepfather was like, no, they'll sell it to buy booze or drugs.

[00:46:03] And we just kept driving instead of like saying, it's not really safe in this, in this situation

[00:46:09] to do that.

[00:46:10] Sure.

[00:46:10] But I understand where you're coming from and we can, you know, do X, Y, or Z.

[00:46:14] Acknowledge that this is coming from a good place.

[00:46:16] Yes.

[00:46:16] Christian teaching.

[00:46:18] Yeah.

[00:46:19] Yeah.

[00:46:19] Um, so that was in, that was more reflective of what the church taught, um, as far as it

[00:46:24] comes to being poor.

[00:46:26] And, uh, I remember when Clinton and Bush or, uh, yeah, Clinton and Bush and Perot, that election

[00:46:38] and my sister just a year older, older than me at the time saying that Al Gore was going to

[00:46:43] be the antichrist and, uh, how fucking freaked out they were when Clinton won and the church

[00:46:51] like going nuts and like prayer service.

[00:46:53] Prayer service was the next night after the election.

[00:46:56] And I just remember some of those prayers of people standing up and this one guy herb in

[00:47:03] the church when Waco happened, he got up and started yelling about the black boot thugs and

[00:47:12] how the government was going to take over and a lot of conspiracy theory.

[00:47:18] And, um, so yeah, that was like, I think that was the last year I was in that church when

[00:47:23] that happened and to, we would switch from this IFB style church to a Pentecostal school,

[00:47:35] which was kind of half our church also, but then we would also go to a Christian missionary

[00:47:42] alliance.

[00:47:45] Why all across the spectrum.

[00:47:49] Yeah.

[00:47:50] Um, you're getting theology, theology bingo here.

[00:47:54] Yeah.

[00:47:55] So the Christian school we went to PCA, they, um, um, they only went to eighth grade and

[00:48:00] my sister was graduating in eighth grade.

[00:48:02] I had a terrible sixth grade, um, where, uh, one of the bullies in the school kind of targeted

[00:48:08] me and the school didn't do anything about it.

[00:48:10] Uh, it was, it was a bad, it was a terrible situation.

[00:48:13] And, um, we could have gone to the, my sister could have gone to the Christian academy that

[00:48:22] was a couple, you know, was near our house, but was expensive.

[00:48:26] Um, or we could go to this Pentecostal school that was dirt cheap and even closer.

[00:48:32] Um, and we went there, but one of the requirements I think was that we had to attend church like

[00:48:39] once a month there, uh, or somewhere or the kids, the kids did anyway, because we were there

[00:48:45] a lot more than I would want to have been.

[00:48:48] Um, but, uh, I remember the first time we went to church there, we sat in the car and

[00:48:53] my stepfather was like, you're going to see a lot of stuff in here that you're never seen

[00:48:57] before.

[00:48:58] And we don't necessarily agree with it, but this is where we have to be.

[00:49:03] And like, but this is our other church, the Christian missionary Alliance.

[00:49:06] So we went in there and he was sure as shit, right.

[00:49:11] Cause I had never seen anything like that before.

[00:49:13] Um, it was a little shocking to say the least.

[00:49:18] That were shocking.

[00:49:19] Uh, dancing people running up and down the aisles, uh, speaking in tongues.

[00:49:26] Uh, never seen that before.

[00:49:28] Uh, that was a little scary.

[00:49:30] Uh, they had drums in their worship service.

[00:49:33] They had like a band, uh, they might as well just been inviting Satan in person.

[00:49:40] Seriously.

[00:49:41] Yeah.

[00:49:41] And, um, they didn't talk a lot of shit about it, even though I know they hated it.

[00:49:47] And my, my stepfather was always a cessationist and like, didn't like none of that shit.

[00:49:53] Like it stopped after acts, like nobody spoke in tongues anymore.

[00:49:57] Nobody like, you know, did any of that stuff.

[00:49:59] So, um, it was wild to go into an environment that he was opposed to, uh, you know, on a religious basis.

[00:50:07] But, um, that school was very authoritarian.

[00:50:13] Isn't it was like on steroids.

[00:50:17] Um, there were physical spankings.

[00:50:21] Uh, there were, um, uh, isolation.

[00:50:28] If you misbehaved, there was, uh, you demerit scores, three demerits equals a detention.

[00:50:35] Um, four to three detentions in a month equals suspension, I think.

[00:50:39] Uh, and demerits were arbitrary.

[00:50:43] Just, you looked at a teacher wrong.

[00:50:45] You put your books down wrong.

[00:50:47] Um, uh, I got a demerit for writing lyrics to a song on my clipboard that they couldn't be identified as Christian.

[00:50:59] Um, uh, just like the weirdest things, man.

[00:51:03] And for the first two years, I got in trouble all the time because I'm like, why is this, what am I doing wrong?

[00:51:09] Like, I don't know what's going on.

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:10] And we had to wear uniforms.

[00:51:13] And so if our, you know, our button wasn't button, we got a demerit.

[00:51:17] If, you know, we didn't bring the right shoes to gym class, we got a demerit.

[00:51:20] Boys and girls were separated.

[00:51:22] Uh, especially when it came to gym class, we went to the YWCA.

[00:51:27] Uh, we had to walk there, which was about a half a mile away.

[00:51:31] Um, and walk back.

[00:51:34] And we would do half the year basketball, half the year swimming.

[00:51:41] Girls would switch with boys.

[00:51:43] So they would go basketball half the year and we would go swimming.

[00:51:46] Whenever you always had to walk up and down the stairs and you would go by the pool to get to the locker room.

[00:51:52] And somebody would always be standing there with a towel or blanket, uh, covering the glass.

[00:51:58] So neither opposite sex could see each other in their swimming uniforms.

[00:52:03] Um, yes.

[00:52:05] Yeah.

[00:52:05] Cause we, yeah.

[00:52:06] Purity culture was a bitch, which was like when I became a teenager is when that stuff started coming in.

[00:52:12] Uh, but, uh, I, I think my saving grace was finding punk.

[00:52:20] Um, it really, it really hit me hard.

[00:52:25] Um, I, and this was about the time when grunge was coming out.

[00:52:29] I was into that, all that shit I had to do in secret.

[00:52:32] Um, I, I snuck a radio into my room.

[00:52:35] I would record the radio overnight and play it when I got home or like I had any time by myself.

[00:52:41] Thursday nights became a night where I'd be by myself a lot of the time.

[00:52:45] Um, so it was a lot of MTV as much as I could get it.

[00:52:48] Um, uh, I remember I recorded a very early Weezer concert, a very early Bush concert.

[00:52:54] On, on my cassette.

[00:52:56] Cause they were on a late night radio program and Bush was putting F words into like different songs.

[00:53:05] And like, I sing those songs that way now still when I listened to them, uh, like where he says she cut me down the size and he says she fucked me down the size.

[00:53:16] And I'm just like, I'm like, yeah, like that.

[00:53:19] Like when I heard that, I was just like, holy shit, this is wild.

[00:53:22] You know, when it's not really that wild.

[00:53:23] Uh, but like, but for you at the time.

[00:53:26] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:53:27] Yeah.

[00:53:27] And I remember labeling this, uh, horror punk band, the misfits, uh, a cassette of theirs.

[00:53:34] I taped onto, um, I've labeled it Jeff Moore in the distance.

[00:53:39] And I think my parents thought I was the biggest Jeff Moore in the distance fan because every tape I had, it must've been labeled that, uh, just like a non-controversial Christian rock band that nobody would second guess.

[00:53:51] Yeah.

[00:53:52] Um, because Amy Grant would have been a red flag, uh, by the way.

[00:53:56] Amy Grant got banned from the private school, from the, uh, from the, um, Pentecostal school.

[00:54:04] Yeah.

[00:54:05] Uh, yeah.

[00:54:06] So, but I, as punk came in, um, it started conflicting with a lot of my religious ideas and, um, I know.

[00:54:18] It's like punk was a lifeline for you though, that the rage that you were definitely entitled to was being expressed in this music.

[00:54:27] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:54:29] I, I, I know when I can tell you when my life absolutely changed.

[00:54:35] And that was when I was 15 and I was riding to the nursing home that I was working at from the mall.

[00:54:42] Uh, this is in New Jersey.

[00:54:44] And I had bought the first punkorama comp and the first song on that is, uh, is, uh, bad, bad religion.

[00:54:52] Do what you want.

[00:54:54] And, um, it, uh, it, I remember where I sat down, uh, it was, it was on the side of the road and I just played it over and over again.

[00:55:05] And I was just like, Oh my God, there's something here that like, I feel like I feel deep in my soul that I don't feel with anything else.

[00:55:12] Right.

[00:55:14] And I just wanted more and more and more, but like finding that stuff, like kind of verged into like having to go into Christian punk, which I happily did.

[00:55:23] You know, it was acceptable.

[00:55:25] My friends in the church, uh, started liking it too.

[00:55:29] The kids in the, in the Pentecostal school started liking it too, which came to a butt with the.

[00:55:35] The school?

[00:55:36] The leadership.

[00:55:37] Yeah.

[00:55:38] Like it?

[00:55:38] They, no, they confiscated our CDs and well, mainly mine and this other kid CDs and listened to them all and judged what could was acceptable and what wasn't.

[00:55:51] Oh, fuck.

[00:55:52] God damn it.

[00:55:53] So, uh, MXPX said suck in one of their songs that wasn't acceptable.

[00:55:57] So did 90 pound wuss.

[00:55:58] They didn't even listen to him.

[00:56:00] They just read the lyrics.

[00:56:01] Um, uh, other bands were acceptable.

[00:56:04] Like I remember grandma train.

[00:56:06] Uh, they were a grunge band, a Christian grunge band.

[00:56:10] And their first song is about sucking a baby out of somebody's body.

[00:56:13] And that was totally cool.

[00:56:15] You know, um, suck in that instance was abortion.

[00:56:21] Like, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:22] It was like their, their version of a, uh, late term abortion, which don't exist.

[00:56:27] Uh, or partial birth abortion.

[00:56:31] I'm sorry in their minds.

[00:56:33] Yes.

[00:56:34] Yeah.

[00:56:34] Uh, and that was another thing we got hardcore into pro-life movement and like we would,

[00:56:39] we would protest pro-life, uh, we would protest abortion clinics and so on.

[00:56:45] Uh, part of my English grade was based off, uh, a pro-life speech we had to give to the

[00:56:51] March of Life every year, I think.

[00:56:55] And one year I gave, I wrote my speech up.

[00:56:59] We had to give it to our class and then our teacher would grade us.

[00:57:02] And they told me I couldn't give it because it was questioning whether or not, um, I believe

[00:57:09] if somebody was raped or not, if they could have a child or they should have that child

[00:57:13] or whatnot.

[00:57:15] And so I had to change it.

[00:57:17] And then when I gave the speech, I changed it back and I got a, they told me they couldn't

[00:57:22] fail me.

[00:57:22] So I got a D minus.

[00:57:25] Uh, so.

[00:57:26] Well, yeah.

[00:57:27] To your credit.

[00:57:29] I guess.

[00:57:30] But like, um, that was like, you know, I'm so punk rock for doing this, you know, but

[00:57:35] I'm not, you know, um, punk rock would be not doing this at all.

[00:57:39] Yeah.

[00:57:40] Uh, but, uh, when I turned 16 or actually 15, things started to change within the, the, the

[00:57:50] school with me as far as being accepted.

[00:57:53] Uh, I was pushing a lot of the rules and everything and I wasn't going to the church what they didn't

[00:58:00] like.

[00:58:00] Um, I was going to the Christian missionary Alliance and there was a whole different system

[00:58:06] and like lifestyle and who you could associate with and what you could do.

[00:58:12] And it was contrary to a lot of their beliefs.

[00:58:15] And so the summer before I got kicked out of school, uh, I got really into punk.

[00:58:23] I bleach blonde my hair.

[00:58:26] I painted my nails.

[00:58:27] I got all the studs and all the chokers and every studded belt and everything.

[00:58:34] And, uh, my mother let it go for some reason.

[00:58:37] I don't know why.

[00:58:39] Uh, but she said before I went back to school, I had to shave my head and get rid of it.

[00:58:43] I couldn't wear any of the stuff.

[00:58:44] Uh, so I go into school the first day we have a sit down with all the students.

[00:58:51] We all get a new code of conduct book and inside the code of conduct book were rules pointing

[00:58:57] directly at me, um, where we couldn't go.

[00:59:01] We couldn't have dyed hair, which was never ruled before.

[00:59:05] We couldn't have any chains or bracelets, which wasn't a rule before we couldn't go to the

[00:59:12] movies with anybody outside of the church, which was never ruled before because I went

[00:59:16] with people at my school, at my church.

[00:59:19] Uh, and so.

[00:59:21] Look at you influencing culture.

[00:59:23] Oh my God.

[00:59:24] Always.

[00:59:25] Uh, so I asked them in the, in during the thing and I said, well, I go to a different church.

[00:59:30] Am I not allowed to hang out with them?

[00:59:32] And they said, well, we'll talk about that afterwards.

[00:59:35] Oh Jesus.

[00:59:36] And so I made a joke to one of my friends that I was going to turn one of my bracelets

[00:59:41] into a WWJD bracelet and was going to wear it.

[00:59:47] And two days later on the Saturday I was brought into the school and told, they told me I could

[00:59:52] either leave or get kicked out.

[00:59:54] And so we left.

[00:59:55] So it wouldn't go on my transcripts.

[00:59:57] So the, the bracelet was like the straw that broke the camel's back or anything?

[01:00:01] It was like the last, because I was questioning authority and was planning to defy it for

[01:00:09] a WWJD bracelet, man.

[01:00:12] So many layers there.

[01:00:14] Oh, it's, it's so layered.

[01:00:16] Like there's other stuff that goes into it that like is not even like, it's not even worth

[01:00:21] talking about, but it's, it's, you know, there were a lot of rumors during the summer

[01:00:26] of me going around within the school of a, I'm doing drugs.

[01:00:30] Cause I lost a ton of weight, uh, not adding in the fact that I went from 16 to six, 15

[01:00:36] to 16 and I had a growth spurt.

[01:00:38] Yeah.

[01:00:40] You know, and like I was gay.

[01:00:43] That was another thing because I painted my nails, um, that, that my girlfriend I had

[01:00:47] at the time, her name was Mickey, that she was actually a boy.

[01:00:50] Um, wow.

[01:00:52] Uh, there were other rumors going around.

[01:00:56] Um, and so when I, when I left, I was, I couldn't go to Christian school anywhere cause we couldn't

[01:01:03] afford it and there was nowhere, anywhere I could go really, or I could go to public school.

[01:01:07] So I spent the last two years of my high school years in the best two years of my adolescence

[01:01:15] in public school.

[01:01:19] Um, I feel myself exhaling my soul exhaling just cause you got out for whatever reason in

[01:01:27] a shitty way.

[01:01:28] And, but I mean, out of that school, like, yeah, yeah.

[01:01:32] Christian, right?

[01:01:33] Yes.

[01:01:33] I still am a Christian.

[01:01:35] Um, during, you know, uh, I didn't buy into purity culture, but by the time Joshua

[01:01:41] Harris came into our youth group, I was already messing around with my girlfriend.

[01:01:46] Uh, so, uh, yeah.

[01:01:49] Um, and, uh, not to say there weren't battles with it, you know, with, with guilt and everything.

[01:01:55] Oh yeah.

[01:01:55] I mean, it was still taught.

[01:01:56] It just didn't have a name yet.

[01:01:58] You know, it was, yeah.

[01:01:59] I lost.

[01:02:00] Yeah.

[01:02:00] I lost a girlfriend because she wanted to have sex and I was like, no, I feel too guilty

[01:02:05] about it.

[01:02:07] So, you know, I was, uh, it did play a part in my life, but just not, it didn't have that

[01:02:14] long lasting, um, grip that a lot of people during, in my age had, which I'm kind of thankful

[01:02:20] for.

[01:02:20] Luckily you came before that.

[01:02:23] Um, yes.

[01:02:24] Yeah.

[01:02:24] Huh?

[01:02:25] Yeah.

[01:02:29] Yeah.

[01:02:29] Um, so we should all aspire to live our lives in such a way that would force Christian

[01:02:39] schools to change rules.

[01:02:41] Maybe even name them after you.

[01:02:44] So, yeah.

[01:02:46] Are you feeling the Christmas spirit yet?

[01:02:49] It's coming.

[01:02:51] Anyway, a quick addendum here.

[01:02:53] Chaz emailed me, uh, after we finished recording and asked if I would read this story to sort

[01:03:00] of close the door on his childhood.

[01:03:04] Cause there's just so much to unpack.

[01:03:07] Um, so I'll read this now before we head into the early adulthood part where Chaz starts

[01:03:12] to figure things out and become the person he is today.

[01:03:15] But first one last look at the childhood speaking about his father, step dad.

[01:03:26] Um, he wrote, he took me out to get pizza once, which was rare.

[01:03:32] I was little and it was after the S a sexual assault while waiting for our pizza.

[01:03:40] He proceeded to tell me the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice Isaac.

[01:03:46] I knew the story from Sunday school.

[01:03:49] He then told me that if God told him to sacrifice me, he would do it because God's laws are above

[01:03:59] man's laws.

[01:04:01] He would go to jail for following what God told him to do.

[01:04:07] The movie frailty was truly frightening to me when I saw it.

[01:04:15] As you can tell, it led to a ton of hypervigilance along with his other bullshit he did to me.

[01:04:22] I slept with a bat and knives under between my mattress and box spring.

[01:04:29] I still have a stickball bat in our bedroom and my wife is well aware and knows why.

[01:04:37] I still check the locks multiple times before bed and make sure my kids are okay before sleeping.

[01:04:46] So the side effects are very much there, but I'm finally able to go to sleep before midnight

[01:04:52] and sleep through the night.

[01:04:55] I don't want to hammer it home too hard, but this is a Christian upbringing.

[01:05:10] There are more people who would defend Chaz's stepfather than support a child like him, especially back then.

[01:05:21] Now I know we can debate about how common this perspective is and you know, maybe it's not very common anymore,

[01:05:30] but it's the kind of thing where if you tell the story to a devout Christian family, they will be torn

[01:05:38] because the father, the stepfather is right.

[01:05:43] God's law is above man's law.

[01:05:48] We saw what happens when people follow this on January 6th, 2022, 2021.

[01:05:55] Sorry.

[01:05:57] We see it now when people are happy to elect Christians.

[01:06:02] 81% of evangelicals are happy to elect a convicted felon, an admitted assaulter,

[01:06:09] and just one of the worst possible human beings on the planet.

[01:06:15] They're fine with that.

[01:06:17] Because according to them, God's law is above man's law.

[01:06:25] Now that's fine.

[01:06:26] Well, it's not fine.

[01:06:27] It's politics in the adult world.

[01:06:32] But a kid and kids like Chaz get brutalized by this kind of thinking because it leads to abuse.

[01:06:40] It leads to child beatings.

[01:06:44] All in the name of Jesus.

[01:06:50] Merry Christmas.

[01:06:51] Indeed.

[01:07:03] High school went great.

[01:07:05] I found that I love writing.

[01:07:07] I found that I loved – I did drama club.

[01:07:11] I made a ton of friends.

[01:07:14] I was – I know a lot of people thought I was really weird because I came out of this – like I was – there was some social stuff that was like I didn't understand, you know.

[01:07:23] So that took – it was a sharp learning curve.

[01:07:27] But, you know, I made it through.

[01:07:29] And I – during this time, I was going through a lot of issues with having to take this Jesus that I loved and that was this big part of me growing up and protector of me.

[01:07:48] Or so I thought.

[01:07:50] And what my real world views were.

[01:07:55] And they weren't gelling.

[01:07:58] And every time I was told that it should be one thing, I felt the other.

[01:08:05] So I remember in youth group in 99 or 98, our new pastor at the Christian Missionary Alliance came in.

[01:08:16] Our youth pastor was gone.

[01:08:18] He had us write a bunch of questions.

[01:08:20] He was going to read them in front of the class and answer them.

[01:08:24] Austin Powers was huge at this time.

[01:08:27] And one of my friends wrote, do I make you Randy?

[01:08:29] Randy and put it in the thing and the pastor read it out loud but had no idea what it was.

[01:08:35] And he's like, who's Randy?

[01:08:37] And like we just started cracking up laughing.

[01:08:40] And like then he got to mine, looked at it, crumbled it up, put it in his pocket and went to the next question.

[01:08:46] And I asked him.

[01:08:48] I knew it was mine right away.

[01:08:50] And I asked him and he said, fine, I'll read it.

[01:08:54] It's not appropriate but I'll read it.

[01:08:56] And it was, how can a Christian accept living in a capitalistic society when it conflicts with the teachings of Jesus?

[01:09:06] That's not appropriate.

[01:09:07] That's not appropriate, man.

[01:09:11] It's only like most of Jesus' teachings encompassed in a single question.

[01:09:16] But okay, let's call it inappropriate.

[01:09:18] Yeah.

[01:09:19] So he gave a bullshit answer.

[01:09:23] And I don't even remember.

[01:09:24] I just remember that situation.

[01:09:26] And then I also remember Pat Robertson on the 700 Club had an email address up and I emailed him twice.

[01:09:33] This was very early on like internet days.

[01:09:36] Yeah, early email.

[01:09:37] And he responded to me on both the questions.

[01:09:39] And one of them was about Christopher Columbus and what he did and celebrating that as a Christian.

[01:09:47] And another one was pretty much the same question I asked my pastor and pretty much got the same answer of, you know, that Christ wants us to be prosperous and happy.

[01:09:58] And capitalism is the best way to do that.

[01:10:02] And socialism does X, Y, and Z and so on and so forth.

[01:10:06] God damn.

[01:10:06] Like just unironically with a straight face or telling you like the opposite of any basic reading of Jesus and his teachings.

[01:10:15] Yeah.

[01:10:15] Yeah.

[01:10:16] Yeah.

[01:10:17] And a lot of people forget before purity culture started, the WWJD movement was huge.

[01:10:22] And then it sort of shifted to purity culture.

[01:10:25] And then once 9-11 happened, it switched to like urban patriotism.

[01:10:29] Yeah.

[01:10:31] Which is kind of when I fell out of the church.

[01:10:35] And I remember, you know, I lived about an hour and a half from New York City.

[01:10:41] I had friends in the city that were going to school.

[01:10:47] I don't want to go over, you know, where I was on 9-11.

[01:10:49] But like I spent the day at a record store because I had no place else to go.

[01:10:54] Like I knew nothing else to do.

[01:10:56] And a lot of people went to church and that was kind of feeling like the last place I wanted to go.

[01:11:02] And the next morning I was working at a convenience store.

[01:11:06] I was going to college and I was working like two or three jobs at the time.

[01:11:11] And community college.

[01:11:12] And just what I heard from the customers coming in.

[01:11:17] Yeah.

[01:11:20] I can't even, not that I would ever repeat it.

[01:11:24] I can't even think of some of the things that they, I can't even come up with some of the things that they would say.

[01:11:28] I remember I was, yeah, I was an adult at the time.

[01:11:32] Yeah.

[01:11:32] I remember we went to like a restaurant and we overheard the table next to us just talking about nuking and killing all the Muslims.

[01:11:39] And just, yeah, it was bad.

[01:11:41] It was just like customer after customer after customer.

[01:11:44] Yeah.

[01:11:45] And then I'm just like, I'm going.

[01:11:46] And then that night at church was prayer service Wednesday night because 9-11 was on a Tuesday.

[01:11:55] And so prayer service was packed.

[01:11:58] Yeah.

[01:11:58] And the biggest prayer service I think I'd ever seen.

[01:12:02] And I heard the same shit coming from Christians and it crushed my soul.

[01:12:08] And.

[01:12:08] Well, to your credit, it crushed your soul because for a lot of people it bolstered their, it fed their soul.

[01:12:13] Oh, I know.

[01:12:14] Yeah.

[01:12:14] Yeah.

[01:12:15] And we had switched CMA churches at that point because the other one became too toxic with the pastor I talked about before.

[01:12:26] We still saved in the CMA though.

[01:12:28] And it was just a town over.

[01:12:30] So.

[01:12:34] That's a whole, that's so weird, man.

[01:12:36] I told like, that's, that's one thing.

[01:12:38] My mother had only said sorry to me a couple of times in my life.

[01:12:41] And one of the only times was when I left that church to go to the other Christian missionary lines first, because I said, Pastor Clefman, and I don't say his name.

[01:12:53] He died.

[01:12:55] Pastor Clefman is power hungry and he's going to ruin this church.

[01:13:02] And I said, I'm not coming back.

[01:13:04] And so I left.

[01:13:05] And then less than a year later, my mom said she was sorry to me because she didn't believe me.

[01:13:10] And then half the church left too.

[01:13:12] So, and then they eventually had to close their doors.

[01:13:15] So, yeah, we ended up going to the other church.

[01:13:21] I heard all this stuff on 9-11 and it really kind of ruined me.

[01:13:26] And I spent the next couple of years floating around churches, floating around beliefs, kind of not finding my way.

[01:13:38] And then my old youth pastor, I want to say because my mom asked him to, but my old youth pastor came around and started wanting to hang out with me.

[01:13:52] And we would go out and talk about my beliefs and, you know, this political stuff and so on and so forth.

[01:14:00] And we would have really, I thought, really good conversations, you know.

[01:14:05] And then it came around 2004 where the election was coming up, Bush versus Kerry.

[01:14:12] And he asked me if I would, because I was going to school for political science.

[01:14:18] I had dropped out at this point, but he had asked me to come to the youth group and explain to them the electoral college and basically how everything kind of works.

[01:14:29] So I'm just like, I'm like, okay, that could be fun.

[01:14:32] So I made a, dude, I printed out a whole like whole pamphlet for everybody and like printed out like 25 of them.

[01:14:40] And he wanted me to, he made me come to church the one Sunday and just make an announcement that I was going to be doing this.

[01:14:47] My parents were still going there.

[01:14:49] So I come in to about, I want to say a week, maybe two before the election.

[01:14:56] And I come into the room for the youth group and it's part of the youth group, but it's all the church leadership.

[01:15:05] It's the pastors, it's all the parents.

[01:15:09] I didn't have enough pamphlets.

[01:15:12] So I was like, you guys got to share.

[01:15:14] And I started my presentation and it devolved into taking apart all my questioning, like all my beliefs.

[01:15:24] And like, do you believe in abortion?

[01:15:26] Do you think it's a right?

[01:15:28] And like, like putting me on the spot on all these hardcore conservative Christians.

[01:15:33] You got set up.

[01:15:34] I got set up and.

[01:15:36] That's so fucked up on so many.

[01:15:38] Yeah.

[01:15:39] Oh my God.

[01:15:40] I know.

[01:15:40] And everybody left.

[01:15:43] My youth pastor was like, I think that went great.

[01:15:45] And I was just like, yeah.

[01:15:47] And I went out to my car and I broke down crying and I only stepped foot in that church one more time since, since then.

[01:15:55] And that was when I came back for Christmas one year when I moved to Chicago.

[01:15:59] Yeah.

[01:15:59] I, after that, two months later, I moved.

[01:16:03] I moved to Chicago.

[01:16:06] I was, I was done.

[01:16:08] Yeah.

[01:16:08] So.

[01:16:09] Fuck that.

[01:16:09] Yeah.

[01:16:10] Yeah.

[01:16:12] So.

[01:16:12] The next couple of years weren't productive, man.

[01:16:15] They were, a lot of them were shitty.

[01:16:16] I did a lot of shitty things.

[01:16:19] Um, uh, I know what I stole a couple thousand dollars with alcohol from a grocery store I worked at and sold it to make rent.

[01:16:26] Um, you know, I, uh, questionable sexual things with questionable people, you know, and like just, and then I got really fucking jaded, uh, until I, until I think I met my, my wife and I was still sort of jaded.

[01:16:44] And, um, it sucks to kind of admit that I might've gotten into Donald Trump if he had come along at the right time just because of how fucking angry I was.

[01:16:55] Yeah.

[01:16:56] Um, and, uh, it's, that sucks to think about just cause other people are in that position.

[01:17:04] And, um, yeah.

[01:17:06] But to your credit, you, you are who you are and you're doing great things now.

[01:17:13] And thank you.

[01:17:14] I, I, yeah.

[01:17:16] Um, and then you said you wanted to talk about this with going into Christmas.

[01:17:20] Um, thinking about, yeah.

[01:17:22] If, if people are listening to this on Christmas Eve, cause, um, yeah, it's, it's the holidays are this like, you know, romanticized time.

[01:17:33] Of, Ooh, family and gathering.

[01:17:35] And, and if that's, if you have that awesome, you know, and I, I'm fortunate I get along with my family, but I have so many friends who spend the whole year telling me about how shitty their families are.

[01:17:47] And then they got to go during the holidays and like spend this time with them and act like everything's great.

[01:17:51] And, and I'm not saying they shouldn't, but I think it's okay to acknowledge that, man, not just for religious reasons, for a lot of reasons, there's a lot of brokenness.

[01:18:02] In our family relationships.

[01:18:04] And yeah, it's not a mark against you.

[01:18:08] If you don't feel those warm fuzzies every holidays, when you have to go and gather and re hear all those family stories and, you know, go through all that shit.

[01:18:16] And enact this Americana of nostalgic Christmas family gatherings when you're not feeling it, you know, it's, yeah, there's a lot of trauma and, and harm that has been done in families.

[01:18:29] And it's okay to acknowledge that.

[01:18:33] Yeah.

[01:18:35] I, I, I've, I got married in 2007 to a wonderful person.

[01:18:42] We have two amazing fucking kids.

[01:18:45] I can't tell you how much I fucking love my kids.

[01:18:47] I love hearing you talking about your kids.

[01:18:50] Um, they're the most amazing two people I've ever met in my life.

[01:18:55] Um, and they, I don't know how they came from me.

[01:19:00] Uh, so, but like, I, I think, uh, along the lines of like, when we were having the kids, a lot of this stuff up was coming up with my upbringing.

[01:19:13] Um, and it was scaring me.

[01:19:16] Even when we were having our first child, I was scared to death.

[01:19:19] I kind of dropped out emotionally with my wife and it's something that we had to heal over years.

[01:19:24] And like, uh, I was scared to death that I would be anything like my stepfather or even my father were just abandoning.

[01:19:32] And, um, it scared the shit out of me, but like we made it through.

[01:19:36] We had both our kids.

[01:19:37] It took a long time for me to go to therapy, but also to buy into therapy.

[01:19:43] Like I said before.

[01:19:44] Yeah.

[01:19:45] Um, and then it came to the point where my therapist was like, so what are we going to do about your relationship with your family, especially your mother?

[01:19:56] And, you know, and I was like, I don't know what to do.

[01:20:00] I don't know what to do.

[01:20:01] And she was like, can I ask you a question?

[01:20:04] Do you, when you have to go see your mother, how long does it take you to get back to who you are after you see her?

[01:20:16] And I was like, it can take, it can take weeks.

[01:20:20] Like it can take weeks, you know?

[01:20:24] And she's like, is that what you want for your kids?

[01:20:26] You want to be absent for your kids for weeks?

[01:20:30] And I was just like, no, absolutely not.

[01:20:33] And she's like, so we got to do something to fix this.

[01:20:36] And I was like, yeah.

[01:20:37] And, you know, it took two years to write a letter to her.

[01:20:43] That's how, that's how heavy some of this shit can be for, for families and like dealing with your families.

[01:20:49] And it took two years.

[01:20:51] And I, I sent a letter and it was, it started off with her.

[01:20:58] Like when I come around you and we have a family gathering, you like to joke about how you brought pins to church with you when I was little.

[01:21:07] And you poke me with them just to keep me in line.

[01:21:11] And I'm like, that's how funny.

[01:21:14] And I'm just like, and like I went through some of the horrible stuff she did and I went through some of the horrible stuff my stepfather did.

[01:21:21] And I was just like, you never once, you know, you're, you know, it was more important for you, for me to be Christian and stay by your side than for me to ever experience anything.

[01:21:35] Even love.

[01:21:38] And there was one of the hardest experiences I ever had with her.

[01:21:43] And I've only shared this, I think once on the podcast, but I had a girlfriend that tried to kill herself in front of me when I was, when I was 19 and she cut her wrists and I had to hold them until the ambulance arrived.

[01:22:02] And it was, it was rough.

[01:22:04] And I went to the convenience store I worked at first to see my boss, Tammy, who was like a mother to me.

[01:22:12] And she hugged me and cried with me and did everything a mom should do.

[01:22:17] And then I went home.

[01:22:19] And as soon as I walked in the door, because I was out all night, my mother was like, where were you?

[01:22:25] Scott, I'm covered in blood.

[01:22:27] I have blood all over my face, man.

[01:22:30] And on my hands and my jacket.

[01:22:32] And I said, I named my girlfriend.

[01:22:36] I said, she tried to kill herself and I was there and I helped her.

[01:22:40] And she said, well, she needs Jesus.

[01:22:45] And that was it.

[01:22:46] And I turned around and went upstairs and cried myself to sleep.

[01:22:51] And I told that in the, in the letter and I said, she's a lawyer now.

[01:22:57] She, she, she went, she went to George Washington University and graduated and she's a lawyer now.

[01:23:06] And, you know, it's just like, you don't think about those things.

[01:23:09] And, you know, I, at that point I was, I was adding up everything.

[01:23:15] I was like, this is, this is a negative of a relationship I have.

[01:23:20] And it's taking more away from me than I'm getting.

[01:23:23] And at some point I need to be selfish and take care of myself.

[01:23:27] And I need to take care of my family.

[01:23:30] I wouldn't call it selfish.

[01:23:31] I think that's just drawing healthy boundaries.

[01:23:34] Yeah.

[01:23:34] And like I, I, that, that became a word that I had to understand and realize that boundaries

[01:23:40] with her would not be a thing.

[01:23:42] Yeah.

[01:23:42] Because they never have been.

[01:23:44] It's not just for you.

[01:23:45] It's, it's for your wife and kids.

[01:23:47] It's for people in your life.

[01:23:51] Yeah.

[01:23:52] Yeah.

[01:23:53] Yeah.

[01:23:54] And it's, it's been on, it's been a couple of years now.

[01:24:00] And each Christmas and each Thanksgiving have been better since the last.

[01:24:06] I can tell you that even just, I think just with our family growing and becoming who they

[01:24:14] are.

[01:24:15] Um, and also just me not having that weight on me and each year it dissipates and where

[01:24:22] it's not feeling a thing anymore.

[01:24:25] And, uh, you know, my mom showed up one time at our house after I'd cut off contact and

[01:24:31] dropped a bunch of gifts off on our porch and left.

[01:24:33] And I had to tell her never to do that again or all I'm going to call the police.

[01:24:37] Uh, so, um, it was, and she drove two hours to do that.

[01:24:41] Um, she had never driven two hours to do anything for me ever before.

[01:24:45] Uh, so, um, I was like, that's, that's not going to work.

[01:24:53] That's not going to work.

[01:24:54] Uh, um, I said, before we started, I had something that came up just today that was reflective

[01:25:01] of her.

[01:25:02] Um, a couple of years, uh, actually the year before I cut contact off, we, we met for my

[01:25:09] birthday on Thanksgiving.

[01:25:11] We always did that because my birthday is two weeks after Thanksgiving, two weeks before

[01:25:15] Christmas, right in the middle.

[01:25:18] And of course the Christmas babies always get screwed out of everything.

[01:25:21] Uh, so we would have my birthday on Thanksgiving.

[01:25:24] And for some reason she bought me a cuckoo clock and she said, you always told me how you

[01:25:32] love clue cocks.

[01:25:33] And you always wanted one.

[01:25:36] I've never once said, I love the cuckoo clock or wanted one.

[01:25:40] I never don't think I've ever even thought of a cuckoo clock if it, unless it's come up

[01:25:44] in a movie.

[01:25:45] And I think at that point I was just like, she knows nothing about me and she doesn't care

[01:25:49] to.

[01:25:50] And today I sold that cuckoo clock to someone.

[01:25:54] Um, so yeah, I felt great walking to the car.

[01:26:01] I told myself I'm going to use that money and buy myself something that I actually want.

[01:26:07] So yeah.

[01:26:10] Yeah.

[01:26:10] Yeah.

[01:26:13] So my mother and stepfather got divorced a couple of years ago.

[01:26:17] I helped her out when they got divorced.

[01:26:20] I went to her house, uh, to her.

[01:26:22] They were living in like a mobile home.

[01:26:25] I don't know what it's called.

[01:26:26] It's not a mobile home, um, like a ranch style home.

[01:26:29] And, um, pretty much found out that my stepfather was a closet closet homosexual.

[01:26:35] Um, uh, during, during that.

[01:26:38] Um, so that was a nice rude awakening when I went on to the family computer, uh, cause my

[01:26:44] mother was having trouble with it and just found so much gay pornography.

[01:26:52] Um, I'm like, like not even like in, like I had to call my wife over and I was like, look

[01:27:00] at this.

[01:27:01] Yeah.

[01:27:02] And she was just like, how far back does it go?

[01:27:04] And I'm like, I, I don't know if I, I don't want to go back that far, you know?

[01:27:09] Cause this is somebody who'd never cleared their history, you know?

[01:27:11] So probably didn't know how to, and you know, uh, it was just, you know, uh, stuff started

[01:27:18] making sense, you know, they never slept on the couch together.

[01:27:22] Uh, or no, sorry.

[01:27:23] They never slept in bed together.

[01:27:24] My mother always slept on the couch.

[01:27:26] Um, he was gone, uh, random times, you know, where he'd be like, I have to go to this conference

[01:27:33] or this, this, uh, this promise keepers thing.

[01:27:40] Yeah.

[01:27:41] So if there was only a way to find out how much hooking up happened at promise keepers,

[01:27:47] I wish that those apps were a thing back in 1997.

[01:27:53] Oh my God.

[01:27:54] That thing would have been on like people's phones would have been over.

[01:27:56] Oh yeah.

[01:27:57] And you could tell like, like your pockets would be burning.

[01:27:59] Break down.

[01:28:02] I was there in 1997.

[01:28:04] My dad tried to get me to go to those and I was like, fuck no.

[01:28:07] I was a Christian at the time too, but I was like, no, fuck that.

[01:28:10] That's yeah.

[01:28:11] That's bullshit.

[01:28:12] That's, uh, I was 16 and I think I was like anything that would make my stepfather a better

[01:28:18] person.

[01:28:19] Let's kind of do it.

[01:28:20] Oh yeah.

[01:28:20] Yeah.

[01:28:20] And, and he was for like two weeks and then he just went back to who he normally was,

[01:28:27] you know?

[01:28:28] Yeah.

[01:28:28] Yeah.

[01:28:29] So yeah.

[01:28:29] I appreciated the, the, the people that benefited from it.

[01:28:34] I think that was, you know, it was still fucked up, but it just made them a little less

[01:28:38] fucked up.

[01:28:39] And so, um, cause it was still patriarchy and, and pure culture and, and, but yeah, I was

[01:28:48] coming into my own as an Asian American and, you know, they, they pretty much froze out all

[01:28:52] the BIPOC folks until later, but yeah.

[01:28:56] Um, yeah, yeah, but yeah.

[01:28:58] Yeah.

[01:28:59] Uh, yeah.

[01:29:00] So like I'm happy and, and pretty healthy now, uh, emotionally wise, physically is another,

[01:29:07] another issue.

[01:29:08] Getting old is not fine.

[01:29:09] Yeah.

[01:29:10] Yeah.

[01:29:11] Yeah.

[01:29:12] Yeah.

[01:29:13] Um, yeah.

[01:29:14] Uh, nowadays I manage a dog resort.

[01:29:17] Uh, that's what I do for a living.

[01:29:20] So.

[01:29:21] Yeah.

[01:29:22] That's awesome.

[01:29:23] Now.

[01:29:23] So when you go to a baseball game.

[01:29:27] Yeah.

[01:29:28] Is it like a range of emotions just because of the, of the history and, you know, the players

[01:29:33] on your door and, and the relationship you have, it's such a father son kind of vibe at

[01:29:39] a, in baseball culture.

[01:29:41] Or what is that like for you?

[01:29:44] I only went to one game growing up.

[01:29:47] It was Phillies Mets.

[01:29:48] Um, my stepfather got free tickets.

[01:29:50] Uh, so we ended up going.

[01:29:52] Um, I remember there were shitty seats because there was a, uh, a concrete thing there.

[01:29:59] So we kind of have to like.

[01:30:00] Obstructed view.

[01:30:01] Yeah.

[01:30:01] Yeah.

[01:30:01] Yeah.

[01:30:01] The old veterans stadium.

[01:30:03] Yep.

[01:30:03] Yep.

[01:30:04] Veterans stadium.

[01:30:05] Yep.

[01:30:05] Uh, so, but I, I always loved baseball.

[01:30:09] Um, it was something I was good at.

[01:30:11] Uh, I, I played, I played baseball, peewee midgets.

[01:30:15] I don't know if they use those terms anymore, but, uh, um, I won like third best third,

[01:30:22] best third baseman in my city.

[01:30:24] Uh, one year.

[01:30:26] Um, and yeah.

[01:30:29] I think third base became my favorite position, uh, over time.

[01:30:33] And it really wasn't Mike Schmidt.

[01:30:34] It was just like, it was something about just gaining, being in that position, the hot corner,

[01:30:39] the hot, hot corner, man.

[01:30:40] I loved it.

[01:30:41] Uh, but, uh, to play third.

[01:30:43] Oh my God.

[01:30:44] I like second or third.

[01:30:45] Okay.

[01:30:46] Second or third are my favorites.

[01:30:47] Um, so when I had to quit baseball, it was because of the church and not being able to

[01:30:54] go play baseball because of school.

[01:30:57] Yeah.

[01:30:57] Um, so that sucked.

[01:30:59] And you know, when I, when I had my, my first kid, I was working at a sporting goods store,

[01:31:08] uh, uh, Modell sporting goods, and we got tickets all the time to free shit.

[01:31:14] Like, so.

[01:31:14] Art Modell?

[01:31:16] Yeah.

[01:31:16] What was his last first name?

[01:31:18] I forget his first name.

[01:31:19] It might be Art Modell.

[01:31:20] I forget.

[01:31:20] Football coach?

[01:31:21] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[01:31:23] This, no, they're not related.

[01:31:24] Oh, okay.

[01:31:24] Uh, I forget what his, the founder was.

[01:31:27] Anyway.

[01:31:27] Anyway, yeah.

[01:31:28] We get free tickets to hockey games, uh, uh, basketball, football, uh, and, and baseball.

[01:31:35] And, um, there were really good seats and like my wife and I would buy them.

[01:31:39] Uh, we would even buy them and go to games.

[01:31:41] And there was something about just taking my kids, uh, to a game that is one of my favorite

[01:31:47] things to do.

[01:31:49] Uh, my youngest doesn't like it.

[01:31:51] So he doesn't go with us anymore, but my oldest.

[01:31:52] None of my kids like baseball.

[01:31:54] So, uh, yeah.

[01:31:54] I feel you on that.

[01:31:56] Yeah.

[01:31:56] My, uh, my youngest is really into WWE.

[01:32:01] So we go to wrestling stuff.

[01:32:03] Right.

[01:32:04] Um, so yeah.

[01:32:05] Um, but my, my oldest, we go to baseball games.

[01:32:07] The last one we went to his favorite player, Reese Hoskins was came back cause he's on the

[01:32:13] brewers now.

[01:32:14] And he went down to the brewers dugout before the game and he stood there for like an hour.

[01:32:23] People pushing on him.

[01:32:24] Reese Hoskins came over.

[01:32:25] He got his autograph.

[01:32:27] There's a picture on the MLB website or not on the website, but like on their Instagram

[01:32:31] of my son standing there holding his card with his mouth, like wide open and like Reese hot.

[01:32:38] And you just see Reese Hoskins back.

[01:32:40] And it's just like one of, one of the favorite pictures ever.

[01:32:43] And like, he came back to the seat next to me and his, he was just smiling the whole

[01:32:48] entire time.

[01:32:49] But like, we're both into collecting cards.

[01:32:52] Yeah.

[01:32:53] Uh, that's something we, I got back into because of, because of him.

[01:32:58] Um, we love watching baseball, talking baseball.

[01:33:02] It's something that we've connected over.

[01:33:04] Uh, we, you know, we love all Philadelphia sports teams.

[01:33:07] Um, we're, we're huge for the sports team, but something about baseball holds.

[01:33:13] Something in my heart that is as much as punk rock was like that savior for me at a certain

[01:33:20] point in my life.

[01:33:21] I think baseball was another savior for me where I was able to leave my family and go

[01:33:27] play.

[01:33:28] Even though it was for an hour or two a week.

[01:33:30] Um, I got positive reinforcement from my coach, Nick.

[01:33:34] Um, uh, I'm friends with his son on Facebook still.

[01:33:38] And he posts about his father and I'm like, uh, you know, I've told him, I was like, your

[01:33:42] dad was one of the only men that looked after me when I was a kid.

[01:33:49] And, uh, he used to call me Charlie Murphy, all American.

[01:33:53] Um, and I don't know why, but like that was, that's what he called me.

[01:33:56] And, uh, I told him, tell him that I love him and that I hope he's doing good.

[01:34:00] And like, he told me and he messaged me.

[01:34:02] He's like, my dad absolutely loved that.

[01:34:04] And I sold his dad weed one time, which was funny.

[01:34:11] Yeah.

[01:34:11] This was, uh, after church period, he came into a store I was at and he, uh, he was like,

[01:34:17] man, do you know where I can get some weed?

[01:34:19] And I'm like, funny enough, I have some on me.

[01:34:23] I was like, do you want to buy it?

[01:34:24] And he was like, yeah.

[01:34:25] So he bought it for me for like 20 bucks.

[01:34:27] That's beautiful.

[01:34:28] But, uh, yeah, I told, I told him his son that story and he cracked up.

[01:34:31] He's like, that's my dad.

[01:34:32] Um, but yeah, there's, I'm so glad you had that, not just baseball, but that relationship

[01:34:39] and, and that example of like healthy interactions with, with, uh, men of authority, like far

[01:34:47] and few between.

[01:34:48] Yeah.

[01:34:49] Um, and, but like, I think I saw that and was like, that's something that I, I want,

[01:34:54] um, I want what Kyle and Nick have of like, where they still have that relationship when

[01:35:00] they're older.

[01:35:01] Yeah.

[01:35:01] And, um, that's been something that's been driving me and it drives me with my wife too,

[01:35:07] because I'm like, I want you to have a relationship with the kids.

[01:35:10] Yeah.

[01:35:11] So you're going to take him out tonight and have a date night with Braden or Jonas, you

[01:35:14] know, you're going to go do with, you know, and I'm, where I'm just like, no, you're in,

[01:35:18] your relationship with them is just as important as my relationship to them to me.

[01:35:22] Yeah.

[01:35:22] Yeah.

[01:35:22] Equally.

[01:35:23] Um, um, so, uh, I think that's been like one of the driving forces and, you know, just

[01:35:30] as again, baseball and punk rock and my kids, you know?

[01:35:35] Um, yeah.

[01:35:37] So, and if I combine all three, that's even better.

[01:35:40] Hell yeah.

[01:35:43] Happens every once in a while.

[01:35:44] Uh, but yeah.

[01:35:46] Um, but the fact that you have those things and that you can share them with your kids,

[01:35:50] um, and that you just have them in your life.

[01:35:53] I mean, I think that's so important.

[01:35:55] So, yeah.

[01:35:55] Um, I think that especially in these years where they're younger being into the things that

[01:36:02] they're into is important because it shows that you care.

[01:36:05] Not just about their things that they're into, but they, you actually care about them and

[01:36:10] they're not an extension of you.

[01:36:12] Like just because I like baseball, I didn't force baseball on my son.

[01:36:15] I didn't say you're sitting down and watching 10 hours of this with me, you know, it'd be

[01:36:19] casually on and like, you know, I think he just enjoyed those experiences he had with

[01:36:24] me and my youngest is wrestling.

[01:36:28] And I think they really enjoyed the fact that I let them beat the shit out of me at a young

[01:36:33] age and put me in, put me in headlocks and everything.

[01:36:38] And, and they, it showed that I actually cared about what they care about.

[01:36:43] And, um, yeah.

[01:36:44] So I'm there, everything that they ever have, I'm there usually.

[01:36:49] I think I missed two things because of work and I had to go to San Francisco once.

[01:36:53] So, yeah.

[01:36:54] So, yeah.

[01:36:56] Well, this, this holiday season, I will think of you and your family sitting down, um, thank

[01:37:03] you.

[01:37:04] And, and celebrating each other because from everything you've been through and people

[01:37:10] listening, you know, it's like I said, it's a rough, it can be a rough season.

[01:37:14] Um, if you're, if, if it was for years, if you're fortunate enough to have a wonderful

[01:37:21] dinner and everyone loves each other, that's awesome.

[01:37:24] Be super appreciative of that because, um, the fact that you've been able to create this

[01:37:30] out of nothing from, you know, if nothing was given to you like this in your life and

[01:37:36] that you can make this happen.

[01:37:38] That's inspiring.

[01:37:39] That's, that's where the divine lives in my mind.

[01:37:44] And I've talked to Chrissy about this and like, just like with the podcast of like you

[01:37:49] and I, and like when Donovan was on, it was like, we're, we're nobody.

[01:37:52] Like we, we, we don't, we're not pastors.

[01:37:55] We never had a following.

[01:37:56] We never, we're not super, you know, we're not social media stars where, you know, we're

[01:38:02] not professional anybody's, but I, it's all very DIY, um, which goes back to the punk rock

[01:38:12] thing.

[01:38:13] Um, of just like trying to build something out of nothing.

[01:38:16] And it's, it's, it's something my wife who was also grew up in punk rock.

[01:38:21] Uh, and that's something that we both share, um, is something that both of us are determined

[01:38:28] it on and she grew up in a very abusive, neglective household.

[01:38:32] And, um, I grew up in a very abusive authoritarian household with a lot of stuff sprinkled in.

[01:38:39] Um, so we've determined that we don't want this for our children.

[01:38:44] So everything that was done, we've done opposite the best that we can.

[01:38:50] Yeah.

[01:38:52] There's no training manual.

[01:38:53] No, no.

[01:38:55] Uh, yeah.

[01:38:57] Oh.

[01:38:58] A lot of passive, you know, a lot of failing, a lot of saying you're sorry, a lot of sitting

[01:39:04] down with the kids and being like.

[01:39:06] That's everything.

[01:39:07] That's.

[01:39:07] I know.

[01:39:08] And, and I see, you know, I'm on your discord and the, it, what you have created with excommunication

[01:39:15] station means a lot to a lot of people.

[01:39:17] And thank you.

[01:39:18] So thank you for doing that.

[01:39:20] Thank you for including me in a couple of times and, um,

[01:39:24] In the future.

[01:39:25] Yeah.

[01:39:26] No, no.

[01:39:26] We'll keep going.

[01:39:26] We got more shit to talk about.

[01:39:29] Absolutely.

[01:39:30] Yeah.

[01:39:30] I, I, I love this podcast.

[01:39:32] What I do.

[01:39:33] And I love the fact that I'm able to talk about it, talk about not just the things that we

[01:39:38] grew up in, but just like my family and life.

[01:39:40] Yeah.

[01:39:40] And, and if it's able to help people, that's, that's awesome.

[01:39:45] And I think we started off just trying to help each other.

[01:39:49] And then it was like, well, we're helping one person because we got a message from someone

[01:39:54] and then it just kind of like went from there and we're just like, okay, I don't want to

[01:39:58] stop doing this.

[01:39:59] We're not going to stop doing this.

[01:40:00] So, yeah.

[01:40:01] Yeah.

[01:40:02] Well, thanks Chaz.

[01:40:03] Thanks for doing this.

[01:40:04] Thanks for coming on.

[01:40:06] Thank you very much, Scott.

[01:40:07] I really appreciate it.

[01:40:10] So baseball is a sport and however you feel about it, playing baseball and having a coach

[01:40:18] that cared was incredibly significant for Chaz.

[01:40:23] Punk rock is a kind of music with a rebellious aesthetic and you can like it or not, but for

[01:40:30] Chaz, it was an identity and it gave him a voice and an outlet for the rage that was

[01:40:36] rightfully his.

[01:40:38] Sports and music probably saved Chaz's life and those things continue to connect him to

[01:40:46] his kids and his family today.

[01:40:50] Now, he may not have contact with his mom and we completely understand why, but he has

[01:40:57] made a family with his wife and kids and they're doing great.

[01:41:01] So if you're about to sit down to a lovely Christmas dinner with your family, like I am, I hope you'll

[01:41:08] keep in mind the people who can't or won't do the same.

[01:41:14] Maybe invite people to your family's Christmas if it's possible.

[01:41:17] At least reach out to people.

[01:41:20] There's a lot of love and happiness during the holidays and I would guess there's an equal

[01:41:25] amount of sadness, loneliness and anger.

[01:41:30] I know of several people who will sit down at a table with an empty chair and it will be

[01:41:36] painful to go through the holidays without a loved one.

[01:41:42] Some people have to work on Christmas and New Year's and one of my son's roommates couldn't

[01:41:47] get off work so he couldn't go home and he will be alone in their place in San Francisco

[01:41:53] on Christmas. So they had a special roommate dinner for him so he could have a Christmas

[01:41:58] dinner and they're going to FaceTime him on Christmas just so he doesn't feel alone.

[01:42:06] And maybe that's it.

[01:42:08] Maybe it's more important for us to make sure people we know are okay on Christmas and whatever

[01:42:15] holiday. It's more important to do that than it is to just celebrate with your family for a traditional

[01:42:22] dinner because you can do that anytime and I hope you do. Don't wait for Christmas or Easter

[01:42:29] to take nothing away from those dinners and those times. They're special for a reason.

[01:42:38] You're fortunate if you get to do that and take pictures and remember the times and mark the time

[01:42:44] together as a family. But we are complex people who are capable of holding multitudes in our hearts

[01:42:53] and minds. And I hope you will all do this this holiday season. So from me, Scott Okamoto, host of

[01:43:04] Chapel Probation, thank you for listening this year. I truly hope you are all doing well. And yeah,

[01:43:12] Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. And thanks so much to Chaz for telling his story and being so vulnerable.

[01:43:19] It's not easy going back through these things. And I'm so thankful that so many people are willing

[01:43:26] to come on to not just this podcast, but Chaz's podcast and all the Dauntless folks. And yeah,

[01:43:33] yeah, irreverent. I see you doing good work. Rival podcast gangs that we are. There's really no rivalry.

[01:43:43] But I'll be thinking of Chaz and his family this week. It's kind of a miracle that... No, no, I take that back.

[01:43:53] It's not a miracle. It's... His family's happiness has happened because he and his wife have chosen this

[01:44:00] and done the work. So we'll be back next week to finish out the year with just another episode.

[01:44:09] Keeping it going through the holidays. I hope you're enjoying these on your car rides to wherever

[01:44:14] you're going, or maybe you just are hiding in the bathroom of your family, chaos and trying to get

[01:44:19] away. I can respect that so much. Well, we'll be back. Yeah. Next week with another episode to round out

[01:44:26] the year and prepare for the coming apocalypse of 2025. There's a project named after it, you know,

[01:44:35] it's going to be so great.